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Speaker 1: Pushkin, this is solvable. I'm Jacob Weisberg. There are only

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Speaker 1: a few real cons that exist, and the bones of

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Speaker 1: the story are the same, and they've been the same

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Speaker 1: for centuries. Author Maria Khanikova has been writing about these

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Speaker 1: stories for a number of years. Her book The Confidence

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Speaker 1: Game explores stories of con artists, opportunists, the people who

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Speaker 1: build up our trust and then take everything we have.

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Speaker 1: I think Bernie made off the late investor who destroyed

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Speaker 1: countless lives with false promises and financial theft. But before

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Speaker 1: we pledge to fight to abolish all scams, remember this

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Speaker 1: another side to those familiar stories too, The flip side

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Speaker 1: of our vulnerability too, cons is human connection and trust

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Speaker 1: and all the good stuff. So how do we protect

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Speaker 1: our loved ones and ourselves? Will scams be an enduring

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Speaker 1: part of society forever because we refuse or are unable

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Speaker 1: to learn from our mistakes Rather than admitting, Yep, I

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Speaker 1: was dumb. I fell for a scam. You say, oh no, no,

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Speaker 1: Here are all of the mitigating circumstances and it probably

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Speaker 1: wasn't even a scam. So I think that it takes

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Speaker 1: a strong person because it's embarrassing, it's embarrassing, because embarrassing

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Speaker 1: to admit it. So can scams be solved? Maria Kannakova thinks,

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Speaker 1: so being victimized by a scam is actually a solvable problem.

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Speaker 1: Maria has gone from investigating the lies we tell ourselves

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Speaker 1: to mastering the bluff herself by learning to play poker

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Speaker 1: at a world class level and writing about that too.

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Speaker 1: So I started by asking her why she's so hooked

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Speaker 1: on these concepts of big and small manipulations. My first

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Speaker 1: book was about Charlock, So I've kind of traveled this

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Speaker 1: gamut from you know, how do you be a detective? Too? Okay,

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Speaker 1: what are the what are the bad guys doing? To

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Speaker 1: kind of being the bad guy myself but within a game, right, so,

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Speaker 1: so there are rules. And one of the reasons that

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Speaker 1: I've that it's been such a passion of mine is

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Speaker 1: that I hate to see in reality, not in a game.

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Speaker 1: I hate to see people being taken advantage of, and

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Speaker 1: how often that happens, and how scammers often will target

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable parts of our population, the most vulnerable people,

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Speaker 1: and then we as a society target them again by

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Speaker 1: blaming them and by saying, oh, well, you were just

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Speaker 1: stupid you were just greedy, you were just dumb. You know,

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Speaker 1: you shouldn't have fallen for it. I wouldn't have fallen

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Speaker 1: for it, and that just gets me. Yeah, well, I

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Speaker 1: was going to ask you because of your long standing interest.

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Speaker 1: I mean, is this personal for you in any way?

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Speaker 1: Have you been scammed yourself or people close to you

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Speaker 1: been victim of scams? I personally have not been scammed

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Speaker 1: that I know of, but one point I always make

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Speaker 1: is that you know, the best scams are ones that

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Speaker 1: you're probably not aware of. So I'm sure I've been

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Speaker 1: scammed on small things. And when you're about to get

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Speaker 1: on the subway, someone stops you and says, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I lost my wallet. Do you have

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Speaker 1: the fare for the subway, for the bus, for the train.

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Speaker 1: I need to get back to my family. And there's

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Speaker 1: so many excuses, and you can do one of two things.

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Speaker 1: You can say I think you're a con artist. I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to give you any money and walk on.

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Speaker 1: You feel kind of shitty, You feel like a bad

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Speaker 1: person because what if they actually needed you. I've lost

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Speaker 1: my wallet, I've needed help in the past, and I

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Speaker 1: think we've all probably been on the other side of that,

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Speaker 1: And so the trade off is, yeah, maybe you get scammed,

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Speaker 1: but I'd rather take the risk of being the victim

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Speaker 1: of a scammer and particular instance, and I'm sure I've

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Speaker 1: been scammed that way. Well, that's interesting. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: have an experience that still sticks with me from high school.

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Speaker 1: I remember in Chicago, where I was growing up, walking

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Speaker 1: through Lincoln Park and there was a guy kind of

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Speaker 1: ragged looking walking with a gas can, and he stopped

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Speaker 1: me and told me this whole sad story about how

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Speaker 1: he was trying to get back to Florida to see

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Speaker 1: his family and his card run out of gas and

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Speaker 1: he needed the money for gas. Now, I was probably

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Speaker 1: fifteen years old or something like that, but I think

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Speaker 1: I gave him ten dollars, which would have been a

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Speaker 1: lot of money to me at the time, and I

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Speaker 1: felt kind of good about myself for doing that. And

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Speaker 1: then a week later I was walking through the park

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Speaker 1: and there was the same guy walking around with his

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Speaker 1: gas can, and you know, it just it sticks with

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Speaker 1: you because it's a sort of formative experience of misplaced trust.

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Speaker 1: You know, the cure or can be worse than the disease,

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Speaker 1: right if the cure is to be mistrustful of people

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Speaker 1: and to be kind of hard shelled and not have

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Speaker 1: empathy for people who seem to be in a bad

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Speaker 1: situation because they might be scamming you. That's not a

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Speaker 1: good outcome either. I couldn't agree more. I actually saw

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Speaker 1: that sentiment phrased in the most beautiful way by Ricky Jay,

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Speaker 1: who was a lifelong student of the Khan. He was

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Speaker 1: fascinated by them, and he wasn't he wasn't just a magician.

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Speaker 1: He was someone who really enjoyed kind of that dark side.

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Speaker 1: And he said once in an interview, he said, I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't want to live in a world where we can't

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Speaker 1: get conned, because that's a world where you can't believe

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Speaker 1: in anyone or anything. And I think that there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of truth to that that the flip side of

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Speaker 1: our vulnerability to cons is human connection and trust and

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Speaker 1: all the good stuff. And so it's it's one of

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Speaker 1: these things where, you know, do we want to solve

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Speaker 1: all cons forever and ever? I don't actually think we do.

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Speaker 1: I think we want to target it and be a

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Speaker 1: little bit more specific and say, okay, you know, we

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Speaker 1: can make ourselves invulnerable to online scams or two kind

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Speaker 1: of different scams of that sort. But in terms of

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Speaker 1: human to human contact, I think that we're always going

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Speaker 1: to have to leave a window open for vulnerability. And

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Speaker 1: that's okay, that's really interesting. I want to get into

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Speaker 1: the types of scams in a minute, but first I

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Speaker 1: want to ask you, just broadly speaking, if we agree

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Speaker 1: on that that the solution to scams is not to

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Speaker 1: go in mistrustful of everyone you meet, what is the

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Speaker 1: way to avoid becoming a victim of scams by actually

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Speaker 1: being smarter and a little bit more skeptical and a

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Speaker 1: little bit less giving of information about ourselves. The modern

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Speaker 1: day person has given up privacy in so many ways.

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Speaker 1: You know, we have public profiles on all sorts of

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Speaker 1: social media where we list really portant information about ourselves. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know you've got the big ones. You know your birthday,

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Speaker 1: and every single network keeps wanting to know my birthday

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Speaker 1: and keeps reminding me, don't you want people to wish

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Speaker 1: you a happy birthday? And I say, you know what,

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Speaker 1: I'd rather not thank you, because the people who know

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Speaker 1: me and who care about me can wish me a

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Speaker 1: happy birthday, and I don't need the world at large

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Speaker 1: knowing my birthday. But we also post happy things, you know,

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Speaker 1: the birth of children, exactly when they were born, the

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Speaker 1: date of the time, their weight, their eye color, all

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Speaker 1: of these things, happy moments, sad moments, divorces, marriages, it's

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Speaker 1: all out there, and this is all information that can

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Speaker 1: be used against us by con artists. I always advocate

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Speaker 1: and people look at me like I have twenty heads,

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Speaker 1: especially when I'm talking to you know, high school students

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Speaker 1: or college students, and they just think that I'm this

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Speaker 1: complete monster when I say, you know, make things private,

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Speaker 1: don't ever accept friend requests from people you don't know,

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Speaker 1: don't share these types of things. And it's one of

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Speaker 1: these things where I'm pushing against a tide that I

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Speaker 1: think I'm going to lose. But that's kind of something

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Speaker 1: really really simple that we can do to actually make

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Speaker 1: ourselves less vulnerable. The other thing I would say is

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Speaker 1: education actually works. So it turns out when you're looking

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Speaker 1: at people's susceptibility to cons that if you teach them

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Speaker 1: about specific types of cons and what the scripts are

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Speaker 1: and how people get to you and what they say

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Speaker 1: ahead of time before they're in that hot emotional situation,

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Speaker 1: then they're not going to fall for it. So a

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Speaker 1: great example is the grandparent scam. So you get a

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Speaker 1: phone call. Your grandchild has been in an accident. They're

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Speaker 1: in the hospital. We need money. You can't call their

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Speaker 1: parents because they were on drugs. You know, they were

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Speaker 1: in Mexico. And oh my god, your grandchild really was

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Speaker 1: in Mexico on vacation. Surprise, surprise, Right, social media posts

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Speaker 1: you can actually use real information, and so you get

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Speaker 1: scared and you wire money. This happens all the time.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out that if you actually teach people

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Speaker 1: about this scam, they stop falling for it. They'll start

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Speaker 1: asking verifying questions. So the old you know what I

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Speaker 1: always keep coming back to is what we're taught as

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Speaker 1: journalists from the very beginning. Trust but verify, Yeah, verify, verify,

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Speaker 1: verify whenever you're making an important decision, whenever you're forging

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Speaker 1: a new relationship, especially when there's money involved. But even

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Speaker 1: if there's no money involved, verify. Don't take things at

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Speaker 1: face value when it's actually important. Yeah, but verify, no

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Speaker 1: matter how scared you are. The enemy of verification is convenience,

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Speaker 1: I mean, slows you down and it's all the pathwords

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Speaker 1: you have to remember and the two step verification you

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Speaker 1: know to log on to anything, and you know, often

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Speaker 1: it's a deterrent to just getting what you want to

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Speaker 1: do on the thing you want to read or the

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Speaker 1: thing you want to transact online, and of cour ninety

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Speaker 1: nine point nine percent of times you'd be fine. So

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Speaker 1: it's very tempting not to go through that step in

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Speaker 1: the process. Absolutely, I think convenience is the enemy, and

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Speaker 1: I will add to that, desire is the other enemy.

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Speaker 1: That we often want to believe something is true so

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Speaker 1: much that we don't want to verify it. I don't

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Speaker 1: actually know the real origin of the phrase to I

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Speaker 1: can help someone who might know. Well. Ronald Reagan made

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Speaker 1: it famous when he was opening nuclear negotiations with Mikhail Gorbachev.

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Speaker 1: And there was a Russian scholars just something I happen

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Speaker 1: to know because I wrote a book about Ronald Reagan.

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Speaker 1: Suzanne Massey. She was a Russian scholar who his book

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Speaker 1: Ronald Reagan read, and he invited her in and she said,

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Speaker 1: I want to teach you a phrase in Russian to

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Speaker 1: use with Gorbachev. And I can't say it in Russian,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's a Russian phrase, trust but verifying, and

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Speaker 1: Reagan loved it, and so of course every time he

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Speaker 1: kept repeating it and repeating it and every by the

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Speaker 1: fifth meeting with GARBAGEV. Garbachev was like, don't say that

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Speaker 1: trust verify. Think again. But it is a good it's

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Speaker 1: a very good lesson to apply. And you know a

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Speaker 1: lot of places, right So imagine we're talking about the

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Speaker 1: online environment right now. A lot of scams online happen

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Speaker 1: on dating websites where you meet someone and they're not

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Speaker 1: who they say there they are, and there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of emotional stuff involved. And in that sense, you don't

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Speaker 1: verify because of convenience. You don't verify because you want

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Speaker 1: to believe in this. You want to believe that it's

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Speaker 1: wonderful and it's great, and you're meeting someone who really

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Speaker 1: cares about you, and so you're willing to overlook a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. And so I think that if when

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Speaker 1: you put those things together, they are a potent combination

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Speaker 1: towards not verifying and towards just trusting. Has there been

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Speaker 1: innovation and surely that is one of the oldest categories

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Speaker 1: of scamming. Is is there any digital innovation around that,

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Speaker 1: or is this simply an old form being distributed via

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Speaker 1: new technology. Yeah. I think the answer to both of

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Speaker 1: those things is yes, in the sense that there are

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Speaker 1: only a few real cons that exist, and the bones

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Speaker 1: of the story are the same, and they've been the

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Speaker 1: same for centuries, and they just get kind of updated

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Speaker 1: with the time and with the place. It's funny, I

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Speaker 1: think that every single time there's a new technology, one

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Speaker 1: of the first movers to adapt it is the con artist.

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Speaker 1: So you'd probably soon after you've had the Alexander graham

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Speaker 1: bell first phone call, probably the next one was a

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Speaker 1: telemarketer or some sort of a scam phone call soon

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Speaker 1: on its heels. So every new technology just invites its

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Speaker 1: ease of access. The Internet is just kind of this

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Speaker 1: absolute gold mine for con artists, not just because of

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Speaker 1: the information we provide, but because there's such easy access

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Speaker 1: to so many people and dating sites. You already have

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Speaker 1: your victims pre screening themselves. They're going on there because

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Speaker 1: they're lonely, they're vulnerable, they're looking for connection, they're looking

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Speaker 1: for something. One of the things that we find about

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Speaker 1: the victims of con artists are it doesn't really matter

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Speaker 1: how educated they are, or how old they are or

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Speaker 1: any of that. But what does matter is where they

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Speaker 1: are in their life in terms of are you going

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Speaker 1: through a moment of transition? Are you emotionally vulnerable? And

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Speaker 1: it turns out that those moments of transition and change

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Speaker 1: are the times when you're most likely to get scammed.

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Speaker 1: Scams play on kind of primary emotions, you know, lust, loneliness, fear,

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Speaker 1: and greed. It's interesting how many scams are openly from

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Speaker 1: someone engaging in corruption inviting you to participate it or

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Speaker 1: help them in their corruption. I mean, I think of

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Speaker 1: that classically as the you know, the son of the

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Speaker 1: Nigerian oil minister scam. You know where you get a

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Speaker 1: text or an email saying this is money in a

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Speaker 1: bank account and I need your help to access it

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Speaker 1: and I'll share it with you. That is be a

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Speaker 1: thief with me. Indeed. Indeed, and why not that Nigerian

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Speaker 1: oil minister didn't get it fairly anyway, so they have

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Speaker 1: it coming. It's wonderful what we can justify when some

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Speaker 1: poor person is actually the son of the Nigerian oil

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Speaker 1: minister and has I imagine he has very little credibility

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Speaker 1: when it when he explains who he is. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about this. Bernie Madeoff recently died, and

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Speaker 1: one of the interesting subtleties of the Madeoff case is

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Speaker 1: that an argument was made that many of his investors

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Speaker 1: thought he was a scammer. They just misunderstood the type

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Speaker 1: of scam. They thought he was involved in insider trading,

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Speaker 1: and they were beneficiaries of it, because, of course, it

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Speaker 1: was very un usual, unrealistic for a stock market investor

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Speaker 1: to generate consistent double digit returns. So sophisticated investors either

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Speaker 1: weren't paying attention or had an inkling that something was up.

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Speaker 1: They just didn't realize that they were the victims. They

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Speaker 1: thought they were, that he was victimizing other people and

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Speaker 1: you know, they didn't need to know about it. Was

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Speaker 1: that your understanding of what was going on there. It

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Speaker 1: was my understanding of some of it, but some of

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Speaker 1: it was also just people really being taken advantage of. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there were some sophisticated adventistors with made Off, but there

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Speaker 1: were also people who just gave him their life savings

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Speaker 1: because they'd heard from others who they trusted that this

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Speaker 1: is someone who's good at what he does, and he

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Speaker 1: ruined their lives completely. I mean, he wiped them out.

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Speaker 1: And I think that it's important not to lump everyone

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Speaker 1: in together, because I do think that there were people

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Speaker 1: who really weren't sophisticated and who don't understand that those

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Speaker 1: types of returns are crazy, and who just say, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's a great opportunity. Right. It's not actually

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Speaker 1: crazy in the modern world to see these sorts of

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Speaker 1: sometimes insane returns, And if you're not a sophisticated investor,

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Speaker 1: it's not necessarily greed in the sense of ha ha,

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Speaker 1: he's taking advantage of someone on my behalf. It's the

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Speaker 1: sense that I've worked really hard. These are my life savings,

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Speaker 1: and I found a smart opportunity, so why not take

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Speaker 1: advantage of it. Other people who are smart are doing it,

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Speaker 1: so why not me. Let me invest in crypto. Look

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Speaker 1: at the returns people are getting. That seems like a

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Speaker 1: really great thing to do. Let me buy some of

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Speaker 1: that coin. Oh boy, I'm a millionaire. I'm glad you

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Speaker 1: brought up crypto because I wanted to ask you whether

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Speaker 1: that qualified as a scam, or what part of it

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Speaker 1: might qualify as a scam. I mean, you have simultaneously

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Speaker 1: presumably a speculative bubble, which isn't necessarily made off type

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Speaker 1: scam where someone is benefiting from it. People are all participating,

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Speaker 1: and it's fueled by the greater full theory. And then

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Speaker 1: there's just stupidity, you know, making investing a lot of

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Speaker 1: money and things that are worthless. I saw recently a

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Speaker 1: report about a Delhi and New Jersey that trades on

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Speaker 1: the Penny stock exchange that has a market capitalization of

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Speaker 1: one hundred and ten million dollars and had revenues last

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Speaker 1: year of thirty seven thousand dollars. So, you know, I

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Speaker 1: don't know if that's a scam, it's just a really

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Speaker 1: stupid investment. And then you now have to have what

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Speaker 1: looks a little bit like a new phenomenon, which is

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Speaker 1: especially on cryptocurrency, things that are openly stupid investments that

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Speaker 1: have no value, that don't even pretend otherwise doge coin,

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Speaker 1: whatever whatever it is, and people participating in them knowing

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Speaker 1: it's a scam or knowing it has no value. Is

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Speaker 1: that all as old as time or are there actually

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Speaker 1: some new things happening here? So it's a fascinating question.

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Speaker 1: And if I knew the answer, then I would know

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Speaker 1: to either drastically short crypto or to invest everything I

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Speaker 1: own in it. And I don't. I don't understand the space.

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Speaker 1: That's why I actually have never invested in crypto myself.

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Speaker 1: It has all the markings of bubbles of your It

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Speaker 1: looks like John law and he had this crazy idea.

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Speaker 1: It's the basis of markets now, where instead of having

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Speaker 1: something that's backed in gold, you back it in you

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Speaker 1: issue shares and you have kind of this partnership agreement

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Speaker 1: and you can speculate in things then, and you can

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Speaker 1: infuse the economy with more liquidity. And he ended up

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Speaker 1: basically convincing the government of France that this was going

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Speaker 1: to be a great idea, and everyone invested in this

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Speaker 1: great opportunity in America that was going to buy up

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Speaker 1: all sorts of land and do great things, and people

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Speaker 1: became million errors overnight, and then that whole bubble crashed

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Speaker 1: and everyone went broke and Law went to prison. That

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Speaker 1: was that. But there's this kind of great debate. Was

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Speaker 1: John Lawe kind of a brilliant economic innovator and I

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Speaker 1: just didn't end up working or was he a con artist?

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Speaker 1: I was surprised at how bitter the disagreement is between

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Speaker 1: economists about whether John Law was a good guy or

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Speaker 1: a bad guy. I feel like with crypto, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have this situation where it's totally new once again,

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Speaker 1: and it's also backed by seemingly nothing, and so I

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Speaker 1: have no idea. I don't know if people are going

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Speaker 1: to end up in jail. I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: a con or a bubble, or if it's going to

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Speaker 1: be the future. And a lot of smart people that

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Speaker 1: I respect say it's the future, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: smart people I respect say it's a bubble. It has

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Speaker 1: all the hallmarks of a scam. But well, one thing

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Speaker 1: we can be fairly sure about is where you have

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Speaker 1: that kind of financial hype, they're going to be scams

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Speaker 1: around it. Yes, so bitcoin may not be a scam

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Speaker 1: in any conventional sense, but there are surely scammers who

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Speaker 1: see people's eagerness to profit from this phenomenon and are

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to scam them around cryptocurrency. So to

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Speaker 1: avoid being scammed in general, we are to a significant

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Speaker 1: degree resisting human nature, which is really tough. So what

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Speaker 1: are the Maria Conakova takeaways? The precepts to avoid getting

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Speaker 1: in the situation where you're vulnerable to a scam. And also,

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Speaker 1: you know, when you think aren't sure if something's a

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Speaker 1: scam or not, to assess whether whether to misprust it,

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Speaker 1: trust but verify. So the more you want something to

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Speaker 1: be true, the more you need to actually ask questions,

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Speaker 1: be skeptical, and know what you're going to say when

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Speaker 1: people put up a fight and get indignant. Because oftentimes

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Speaker 1: these conversations are difficult to have, and so we rather

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Speaker 1: avoid having them, and so we end up not having them.

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Speaker 1: And so I actually think that a lot of it

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Speaker 1: comes from preparation, from actually figuring out ahead of time.

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Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you know I think that this I'm

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Speaker 1: going to have to have this difficult conversation. This person

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Speaker 1: might tell me I can't believe you don't trust me?

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Speaker 1: You know who do you think I am? They might

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Speaker 1: yell at me, and this is what I'm going to say,

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Speaker 1: going to say, I do trust you, I completely understand. However,

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Speaker 1: you know I need you to be able to verify this.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you can understand that it's a lot of

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Speaker 1: money or whatever it is, and think about it ahead

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Speaker 1: of time and think through things ahead of time. The

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Speaker 1: other thing I would say is to never make decisions

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Speaker 1: in the heat of the moment. And that's also easier

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Speaker 1: said than done. But just think right now as you're

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Speaker 1: listening to this, is it ever true that someone is

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Speaker 1: going to die if you don't make a payment immediately?

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Speaker 1: Is it true that the IRS is suddenly going to

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Speaker 1: arrest you if you do not immediately do this or

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Speaker 1: immediately do that. One of the things that scams often

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Speaker 1: do is they create this feeling of immediacy, of pressure

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Speaker 1: so that you act in the heat of the moment.

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Speaker 1: And the number one thing that you can do is

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Speaker 1: to step back and reflect and actually have time, because

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Speaker 1: time is the great and to emotion and to kind

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Speaker 1: of the heat of an emotional moment, and it cools

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Speaker 1: it naturally cools you off and helps you reflect and

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Speaker 1: helps you figure things out. And so if you can

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Speaker 1: pause and not act immediately, I think that's going to

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Speaker 1: prevent a lot of scams. And the funny thing is

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Speaker 1: that these sorts of safeguards do exist in a lot

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Speaker 1: of infrastructure, and we tend to ignore it and try

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Speaker 1: to push through it so that we can act right away.

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Speaker 1: It's like a bank, you know, if you're trying to

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Speaker 1: perform a suspicious transaction will often say you know, hey,

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Speaker 1: you know, pause, we don't want you to actually do this.

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Speaker 1: It might be a scam and you get mad at

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Speaker 1: the bank rather than say, oh, maybe they're actually doing

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Speaker 1: something that's good for me. But that's I think finding

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Speaker 1: moments of reflection, I think is a really important way

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Speaker 1: that we can avoid being scammed. And the final kind

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Speaker 1: of psychological tool that I have that I think can

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Speaker 1: be incredibly useful is if you think something might be

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Speaker 1: a scam, or if you really want to believe something

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Speaker 1: or kind off you are about to make a decision,

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Speaker 1: think about what you would tell someone else if they

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Speaker 1: were in that situation. Try to imagine that it's not

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Speaker 1: actually you. Try to imagine that it's your best friend,

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Speaker 1: your brother, your neighbor, someone who isn't you, and just

404
00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:12,076
Speaker 1: walk through that scenario. Is it believable? Imagine they're telling

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Speaker 1: you that they have this opportunity, or that someone's calling

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Speaker 1: them and telling them that this is happening. What would

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00:24:17,316 --> 00:24:19,036
Speaker 1: you tell them? What advice would you give? Would you

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Speaker 1: say this is amazing, transfer money immediately, or would you say,

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Speaker 1: wait a second. Here are the questions you should be asking,

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Speaker 1: Here are the red flags you should be looking out for,

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Speaker 1: because we're so much better at being objective when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about someone else. There's one more question I want

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Speaker 1: to ask you, which is whether some societies are just

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Speaker 1: more written with scams and prone to scams than others,

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Speaker 1: and also whether the same society at different points of

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Speaker 1: time are more afflicted by scams. You know, when patent

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Speaker 1: medicine was all the rage, where there just more scams

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Speaker 1: in America than there are now, or you know, to

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Speaker 1: bring it a little closer to home, when we had

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Speaker 1: a kind of amazing scam or as president, is that

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Speaker 1: tone set at the top and does it trickle down

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Speaker 1: to scamming elsewhere as opposed to when you don't have

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Speaker 1: someone like that office. Absolutely, yes, the tone is set

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Speaker 1: at the top. There are societies with more scams than others.

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Speaker 1: There are times in a society where there are more

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Speaker 1: scams than other times, and it's not something that's innate

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00:25:26,676 --> 00:25:29,956
Speaker 1: to the humans there, but it is something that is

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00:25:30,116 --> 00:25:34,556
Speaker 1: created by social circumstances. So if your president is a

429
00:25:34,596 --> 00:25:38,116
Speaker 1: con artist, yeah, absolutely, there are going to be more

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00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:42,316
Speaker 1: scams and more cons not just because suddenly there are

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00:25:42,436 --> 00:25:46,196
Speaker 1: more scammers, but because the norms change because people who

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00:25:46,676 --> 00:25:50,596
Speaker 1: might be more law abiding in normal times suddenly feel

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00:25:50,636 --> 00:25:55,676
Speaker 1: empowered to cross that line. So a country like Russia today,

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00:25:55,996 --> 00:25:58,716
Speaker 1: which has had such a long history, you know, as

435
00:25:59,196 --> 00:26:02,636
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, as Russia, and where people have pretty

436
00:26:02,636 --> 00:26:06,196
Speaker 1: low levels of trust, one of the countries with the

437
00:26:06,236 --> 00:26:09,316
Speaker 1: highest levels of scams. There's just so much to take

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00:26:09,316 --> 00:26:12,636
Speaker 1: advantage of and so much is broken. And whenever you

439
00:26:12,676 --> 00:26:16,636
Speaker 1: have a society where informal organizations have to step up

440
00:26:17,596 --> 00:26:21,556
Speaker 1: to provide any sort of services, that also opens up

441
00:26:21,556 --> 00:26:25,036
Speaker 1: the possibility for scams. But this idea that if scams

442
00:26:25,036 --> 00:26:28,036
Speaker 1: are flourishing, people will same people will get scammed and

443
00:26:28,116 --> 00:26:30,956
Speaker 1: scammed again is a little at odds with the idea

444
00:26:31,036 --> 00:26:34,276
Speaker 1: that once people are scammed, they can be disillusioned and

445
00:26:34,356 --> 00:26:38,396
Speaker 1: become savvier and more skeptical. I mean, we recently did

446
00:26:38,396 --> 00:26:41,276
Speaker 1: an episode of True Yeah, we'll give you an example.

447
00:26:41,316 --> 00:26:42,956
Speaker 1: We just did, and you can tell me why it

448
00:26:42,996 --> 00:26:47,676
Speaker 1: doesn't apply. We recently did an episode of Solvable about

449
00:26:47,836 --> 00:26:51,156
Speaker 1: cults with a woman named Diane ben Scoter who was

450
00:26:51,196 --> 00:26:54,876
Speaker 1: a mooney in the seventies, and I would wager that

451
00:26:54,956 --> 00:26:57,556
Speaker 1: she is the least likely person to fall for a

452
00:26:57,636 --> 00:27:01,636
Speaker 1: cult scam. Ever, again, because she's devoted her career to

453
00:27:01,716 --> 00:27:04,996
Speaker 1: figuring out how it works. Right, So you're saying that

454
00:27:05,116 --> 00:27:08,276
Speaker 1: isn't it isn't common to learn from the experience in

455
00:27:08,316 --> 00:27:13,996
Speaker 1: that way. She is actually not unique but rare in

456
00:27:14,196 --> 00:27:16,996
Speaker 1: the fact that she knows she was the victim of

457
00:27:17,036 --> 00:27:20,236
Speaker 1: a cult, and she, as you say, she's devoted her

458
00:27:20,276 --> 00:27:23,316
Speaker 1: life to trying to figure out how it works and

459
00:27:23,356 --> 00:27:27,396
Speaker 1: how to avoid something like that. Most people, when they

460
00:27:27,436 --> 00:27:33,516
Speaker 1: get scammed won't admit it because they would rather lie

461
00:27:33,596 --> 00:27:36,156
Speaker 1: to themselves and say, oh, it wasn't really a scam,

462
00:27:36,556 --> 00:27:39,836
Speaker 1: you know, let's make excuses. That was just a failed opportunity,

463
00:27:39,876 --> 00:27:43,996
Speaker 1: It was this, it was that, And the cognitive dissonance

464
00:27:44,076 --> 00:27:46,996
Speaker 1: is so high that they just go through all of

465
00:27:47,036 --> 00:27:51,636
Speaker 1: these hoops of rationalization about why I'm not the type

466
00:27:51,636 --> 00:27:54,676
Speaker 1: of person who normally fall for a scam, but this

467
00:27:54,796 --> 00:27:58,436
Speaker 1: was a unique circumstance. But the fact that you've rationalized

468
00:27:58,556 --> 00:28:02,076
Speaker 1: so much of it away actually leaves you quite vulnerable,

469
00:28:02,596 --> 00:28:05,636
Speaker 1: because rather than admitting, yep, I was dumb, I fell

470
00:28:05,716 --> 00:28:08,596
Speaker 1: for a scam, you say, oh, no, no, here all

471
00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:11,836
Speaker 1: of the getting circumstances, then it probably wasn't even a scam.

472
00:28:12,156 --> 00:28:15,356
Speaker 1: So I think that it takes a strong person because

473
00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:20,596
Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to it's embarrassing, to embarrassing to admit it. Yeah,

474
00:28:20,636 --> 00:28:22,796
Speaker 1: it's it's a hit to your reputation and to our

475
00:28:22,836 --> 00:28:25,676
Speaker 1: sense of self. You know, I'm not the kind of

476
00:28:25,796 --> 00:28:29,476
Speaker 1: person who falls for a scam like that. A lot

477
00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:34,516
Speaker 1: of times people don't even report it because it's heartbreaking

478
00:28:34,556 --> 00:28:37,556
Speaker 1: to their families and they know it, and their families

479
00:28:37,596 --> 00:28:40,516
Speaker 1: had sometimes even warned them, and they did it anyway,

480
00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:44,556
Speaker 1: and so they feel just they feel like they've let

481
00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:48,196
Speaker 1: everyone down, and so they just they won't even admit it. Marie,

482
00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,836
Speaker 1: you've been talking about ways that individuals can make themselves

483
00:28:51,916 --> 00:28:55,516
Speaker 1: less susceptible to scamming, But what about the role for

484
00:28:55,676 --> 00:29:01,596
Speaker 1: government and institutions in protecting people against scams. I do

485
00:29:01,716 --> 00:29:04,156
Speaker 1: think that there's certainly a role to be played by

486
00:29:04,196 --> 00:29:08,876
Speaker 1: institutions that get used as friends for scams, and there

487
00:29:09,276 --> 00:29:12,796
Speaker 1: as simple as actually using some of these same psychological

488
00:29:12,836 --> 00:29:15,436
Speaker 1: tools that we've been talking about on an individual level,

489
00:29:15,756 --> 00:29:19,156
Speaker 1: but ratcheting it up to an institutional level. It doesn't

490
00:29:19,156 --> 00:29:21,556
Speaker 1: even have to be a bank, if you're a dating website,

491
00:29:21,916 --> 00:29:25,916
Speaker 1: if you are a place where you know that scams

492
00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:29,756
Speaker 1: take place, and scammers take advantage of your infrastructure. Also,

493
00:29:29,916 --> 00:29:33,356
Speaker 1: try to have some safeguards in place. Now there's some

494
00:29:33,436 --> 00:29:38,236
Speaker 1: really great new AI capability to try to scan images

495
00:29:38,316 --> 00:29:41,476
Speaker 1: and figure out is this a stock photo? Is this

496
00:29:41,756 --> 00:29:44,996
Speaker 1: photo appearing in more than one profile. I don't actually

497
00:29:45,076 --> 00:29:48,076
Speaker 1: know if a lot of websites are using that sort

498
00:29:48,076 --> 00:29:50,916
Speaker 1: of capability, but it exists, and I would argue that

499
00:29:50,956 --> 00:29:53,116
Speaker 1: it's on them that they should actually be trying to

500
00:29:53,156 --> 00:29:55,396
Speaker 1: protect their users by doing things like that and trying

501
00:29:55,436 --> 00:30:00,276
Speaker 1: to flag proactively people who might be scammers. So yeah, absolutely,

502
00:30:00,356 --> 00:30:03,636
Speaker 1: I think on all of those levels there's room to

503
00:30:03,756 --> 00:30:07,116
Speaker 1: try to protect the consumer, to try to protect us.

504
00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:11,516
Speaker 1: Ya Kanakova is the New York Times bestselling author of

505
00:30:11,556 --> 00:30:15,396
Speaker 1: The Biggest Bluff, The Confidence Game, and Mastermind How to

506
00:30:15,436 --> 00:30:18,516
Speaker 1: Think Like Sherlock Holmes. To learn more about scams and

507
00:30:18,516 --> 00:30:20,876
Speaker 1: how to protect yourself, check out the links in our

508
00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:24,796
Speaker 1: show notes and Solvable Fans. As we mentioned recently, we

509
00:30:24,876 --> 00:30:27,876
Speaker 1: have a great news to share with you. Host Ronald

510
00:30:27,916 --> 00:30:30,796
Speaker 1: Young Junior is joining our team. Some people I think

511
00:30:30,796 --> 00:30:33,476
Speaker 1: are very good at being a host, but for me,

512
00:30:33,556 --> 00:30:37,636
Speaker 1: it's just it's hospitality, creating that warm sense of environment.

513
00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:41,116
Speaker 1: It really comes from like a genuine place inside and

514
00:30:41,156 --> 00:30:42,676
Speaker 1: I think most people that talk to you will tell

515
00:30:42,676 --> 00:30:44,836
Speaker 1: you that this is who I am all the time.

516
00:30:45,836 --> 00:30:50,316
Speaker 1: More from Ronald coming soon. Solvable Senior Producer is Jocelyn Frank,

517
00:30:50,636 --> 00:30:54,036
Speaker 1: Research in booking by Lisa Dunn. Catherine Giardo is our

518
00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:58,556
Speaker 1: managing producer, and our executive producer is Mia Loebell. Solvable

519
00:30:58,636 --> 00:31:01,436
Speaker 1: is a production of Pushkin Industries. If you like the show,

520
00:31:01,516 --> 00:31:04,516
Speaker 1: please remember to share, rate, and review. It really helps

521
00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:07,836
Speaker 1: us get the word out. You can find Pushkin Podcast

522
00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:11,476
Speaker 1: wherever you listen, including on the iHeartRadio app and Apple

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00:31:11,556 --> 00:31:13,836
Speaker 1: podcast on Jacob Weisberg