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Speaker 1: This is the Meat Eater Podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listeningcast. You can't

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Speaker 1: predict anything. The Meat Eater Podcast is brought to you

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Speaker 1: by First Light. Whether you're checking trail cams, hanging deer stands,

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Speaker 1: or scouting for ELK. First Light has performance apparel to

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Speaker 1: support every hunter in every environment. Check it out at

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Speaker 1: first light dot com. F I R S T L

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Speaker 1: I t E dot com. Holy Cow, Big Time author

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Speaker 1: Peter Stark is here, old friend too. New York Times

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Speaker 1: bestselling author Longtime contributed Outside like at a time. Peter

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Speaker 1: and I both contributed at Outside around the same time.

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Speaker 1: Peter is a like an adventure and exploration writer. What else?

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Speaker 1: Howles did you put it?

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Speaker 2: Well?

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Speaker 3: Now?

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Speaker 4: I call myself an adventure historian because I write about

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Speaker 4: other people doing the crazy stuff because I'm too well

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Speaker 4: to do it myself. So I look for historical figures

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Speaker 4: that have gone over the edge in the in the wilderness,

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Speaker 4: went too far, yeah, yeah, rightther than myself or well.

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Speaker 1: At a time you put you, you would push it

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Speaker 1: a little bit too far yourself, right, And now you

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Speaker 1: let other people do the pushing.

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Speaker 4: Right and do you know what I'm talking about. You've

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Speaker 4: done some pushing yourself.

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Speaker 1: Sure, long time contributed to Outside magazine. His work has

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Speaker 1: appeared all over the place. He's written for the Smithsonian,

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Speaker 1: New York Times magazine, written for the New Yorker, written

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Speaker 1: how many books?

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Speaker 4: A lot of books, seven or eight now seven or

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Speaker 4: eight books.

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Speaker 1: We're gonna get into some of these books which are

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Speaker 1: highly applicable. He uh, Peter Stark wrote a book years

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Speaker 1: ago about just all the Worst Ways to Die in

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Speaker 1: the wild. He's written a book about Astor and the historians,

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Speaker 1: so kind of like a mountain man beaver trade but

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Speaker 1: America's first homegrown millionaire.

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Speaker 4: That is right, visionary, a visionary.

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Speaker 1: He wrote a book about and this this touch is

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Speaker 1: on So so in a way, you've touched your touched

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Speaker 1: on some of me and Randall's territory.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, oh totally, yeah, this is this is your world. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, we're like, yeah, we're looking at more of the

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Speaker 1: working class end of things. M h and and not

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Speaker 1: the bosses. But you've touched on the boss. So we're

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Speaker 1: working on the thing about beaver trappers. Okay, and he

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Speaker 1: was sort of the boss of the beaver trappers.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you worked for him and he told

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Speaker 4: you what you were going to get for that that

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Speaker 4: that pelt yep and uh yeah, you were kind of

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Speaker 4: a captive man under John Jacob Astor.

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Speaker 1: And then he became big time rich.

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Speaker 4: He became big time rich.

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Speaker 1: And if you go into Astor Place, the subway station

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Speaker 1: in New York today, you will find.

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Speaker 4: A beaver on the wall in the tile work.

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Speaker 1: And there's a beaver in the tile work at Astorplace.

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Speaker 5: I got it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've been in that subway station a million times,

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Speaker 2: never noticed it.

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Speaker 1: Also wrote a book about I mean, you have a

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Speaker 1: new book. This is brushing up against our boy Clay,

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Speaker 1: but also wrote a book about George Washington, but the

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Speaker 1: early George Washington and the surprising amount of like wilderness

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Speaker 1: experience George Washington had as an explorer and bushwhacker and.

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Speaker 4: Kind of a general screw up in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 4: which was really shaped his career because it was like

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Speaker 4: he made all the mistakes he could make in his

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Speaker 4: twenties in the wilderness and you know, like inadvertently setting

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Speaker 4: off the French and Indian War, almost freezing to death,

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Speaker 4: I mean within an inch of dying at age twenty

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Speaker 4: one and one thing after the other out in the

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Speaker 4: Ohio wilderness. And then he managed to learn some things

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Speaker 4: from that experience, and you know, he became a great

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Speaker 4: leader eventually, But in this at this point, he was

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Speaker 4: just he was just kind of a jerk. Actually, he

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Speaker 4: was very self centered. He was really thin skinned. He

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Speaker 4: was incredibly ambitious, He was in love with his best

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Speaker 4: friend's wife. He wanted to be British.

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Speaker 1: Shopping down a line about chopping.

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Speaker 4: And he wanted to be British. That's I mean, clearly.

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Speaker 4: He tried for years to be a British Royal Army

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Speaker 4: officer and they wouldn't let him in and he was

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Speaker 4: really angry about that. He tried for years. There are

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Speaker 4: lots of stories about that.

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Speaker 1: Now we were we were having trouble with George Washington

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Speaker 1: because we just did an audio bit about we're doing

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Speaker 1: these projects on different phases of commercial hunters. So the

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Speaker 1: first one we did was on the white the deer

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Speaker 1: hide hunters mostly in the first far West, so you know,

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Speaker 1: stuff that floated into the Ohio mostly from the South.

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Speaker 1: It's like Daniel.

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Speaker 4: Boone okay, okay.

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Speaker 1: Deer hunters pre pre revolution. Yes, so our our book cover.

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Speaker 1: Our audio project covers up to seventeen seventy six. Okay,

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Speaker 1: stuff that world kind of dissolved. But in it there's

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Speaker 1: some really alarming quotes from George Washington, who had like

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Speaker 1: a very like condescending, just shitty attitude toward the backwoodsman,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, of the frontier and questioned their question their patriotism. Well,

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Speaker 1: in that he's like a tip of the hat would

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Speaker 1: push him to the French and he says they're not

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Speaker 1: was he bitched that they weren't Brits or they weren't Americans, just.

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Speaker 6: That they weren't quite invested in the in the revolutionary

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Speaker 6: project and that the yeah, that they didn't have any

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Speaker 6: fierce loyalty one way or the other. There's sort of

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Speaker 6: people in between empires.

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Speaker 4: Well, now here's George Washington out in the Ohio Valley

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Speaker 4: wilderness and you're tying seventeen seventy six. In seventeen seventy,

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Speaker 4: seventeen seventy he took a canoe trip down the Ohio

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Speaker 4: River and essentially he reserved twenty thousand acres of the

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Speaker 4: very best lands for himself literally. And the reason he

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Speaker 4: could is because he had served as an officer Virginia

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Speaker 4: colonial officer in the French and Indian War. And you

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Speaker 4: know that's how he got paid. The officers and men

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Speaker 4: got paid in bounty lands. You know, you know that expression,

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Speaker 4: you know, free land for your service. And as an officer,

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Speaker 4: he got three thousand acres as an officer in the

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Speaker 4: French and Indian War. And then what he started doing

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Speaker 4: is he went around secretly to his fellow officers. But

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Speaker 4: he wouldn't go himself. He'd send like a surrogate and

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Speaker 4: say to the fellow officer, hey, you know, interested in

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Speaker 4: selling that three thousand acres And if the fellow officer

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Speaker 4: might say, yeah, I'll sell it, and so then George

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Speaker 4: would buy it. And in that way he accumulated like

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Speaker 4: twenty thousand acres of land. And then he went over

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Speaker 4: the mountains and canoed down the Ohio Villa Ohio River

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Speaker 4: in two big canoes with Indian guides, and he had

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Speaker 4: some frontier guys with him, and he he staked all

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Speaker 4: the rich bottom lands and he keeps a journal of

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Speaker 4: it all the way down. So that's seventeen seventy. Then

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Speaker 4: in seventeen seventy four, you know, things start heating up

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Speaker 4: with a revolution coming along. You know, tension, a lot

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Speaker 4: of tension between the American colonists and the British. And

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Speaker 4: there's a certain point where the British in London, you know,

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Speaker 4: the British in charge in London, say, you know those

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Speaker 4: bounty lands that we were going to give to these

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Speaker 4: American colonists for their service in the French and Indian War, Well,

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Speaker 4: actually those bounty lands are only going to go to

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Speaker 4: British officers, not Virginian colonial officers. He went ap shit. Oh,

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Speaker 4: he went apit.

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Speaker 1: That's what There are these letters.

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Speaker 4: I've got some I think reproduced in this in this book.

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Speaker 4: But he was so angry, and that was seventeen seventy four.

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Speaker 4: Didn't take much to push him over the edge to

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Speaker 4: the to the.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's probably the point at which you've got his

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Speaker 1: revolutionary fervor. Man Uh also a book which we're going

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Speaker 1: to get into. But Uh the great leader to COUMSA exactly.

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Speaker 1: And you pit him against.

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Speaker 4: William Henry Harris and William Henry Harris Territorial governor.

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Speaker 1: And when I say that that you pulled it on

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Speaker 1: our boy Clay is Uh. In our network, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a podcast called Bear Grease and that and Clay

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Speaker 1: did I think a three parter on Tecumsa which was

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Speaker 1: interesting but not didn't delve into the the sort of

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Speaker 1: this this.

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Speaker 4: Uh it's kind of face off, but yeah, there's.

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Speaker 1: Sort of face off between him and the President of

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Speaker 1: the United States.

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Speaker 4: And that the dynamics, it was really the dynamics between

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Speaker 4: the white world and the white political world and the

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Speaker 4: and the Native leadership. And yeah, really interesting. And Thomas Jefferson,

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Speaker 4: my hero, does not come come off well on this equation. Really. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: we get into that fathers man. You know, once you

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Speaker 4: their earlier days, you know, they're not all change. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they they I mean they're great guys, There's no doubt

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Speaker 4: about it. They're great leaders. You know a lot of them.

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Speaker 4: They all forged by fire, but they forged by fire.

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Speaker 4: But they they were, they were, there were there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of shelf interest going on there at the same time. No,

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Speaker 4: you've never seen that in politics.

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Speaker 1: Uh oh you know what, So we're gonna get in

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Speaker 1: all that real big time. You know. You know what

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Speaker 1: I've been watching with my boy. It's like, well worth time.

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Speaker 1: My littlest boy is Have you guys seen that thing

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Speaker 1: it's like it's like Planet Earth, but it's dinosaurs.

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Speaker 2: Philm Maybe you know.

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Speaker 1: It's called prehistoric Planet.

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Speaker 7: I mean my kids have we I don't know if

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Speaker 7: it's the same one. I feel like there's a lot

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Speaker 7: of those.

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Speaker 1: So instead of them saying, instead of them, it's got

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Speaker 1: that same guy, that guy that does all those things Edinburgh.

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Speaker 1: Oh my good lord. I mean, God bless them, God

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Speaker 1: bless them, but holy cow. They got a part of

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Speaker 1: it where you actually see him talking and it's like

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Speaker 1: he physically has to sort of like expel his words

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Speaker 1: his Head's like the hunter wears me out, drives my

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Speaker 1: kids crazy, like the whole time I'm sitting, I'm like,

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Speaker 1: but what they do in this thing? So you know,

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Speaker 1: they got a lot of these dinings. Let me tell

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Speaker 1: you about dinosaurs. They got a lot of these dinosaurs.

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Speaker 1: You find like part of a bone, right, the best

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Speaker 1: you can do, Like, I'm all for it. We had

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Speaker 1: the the Jack Horner, not in this studio but our

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Speaker 1: old studio. I'm warm to dinosaurs. But you got like

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Speaker 1: a dinosaur you find like a hunk of his toe,

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Speaker 1: which is great. What this thing does is it totally

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Speaker 1: tries to make up their lives, so rather than it

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Speaker 1: being a show about here's what it's little, it's total

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Speaker 1: looked like. And if you figure that his toe look

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Speaker 1: like this, and you know it's foot might have looked

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Speaker 1: like this. If it's foot look like that, one might

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Speaker 1: assume that rite whatever they get into like, it's all

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Speaker 1: cgi And there's one of them making a nest and

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Speaker 1: then another one of them comes up to like rob

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Speaker 1: the nest, but a snake gets it, and they oh,

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Speaker 1: they got there. They got all their vocalizations and every

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Speaker 1: in this thing, every dinosaur is constantly vocalizing. A dinosaur

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Speaker 1: will be sneaking up, he's sneaking up on something. He's vocalizing.

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Speaker 1: They don't stop vocalizing. Every dinosaur all the time, in

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Speaker 1: every scene is vocalized. And they even got it. We're like,

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Speaker 1: there's dinosaurs that use tools. So he'll get a stick

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Speaker 1: lit like a cigarette and run over and light some

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Speaker 1: stuff on fire to flush game out. There's a dinosaur

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Speaker 1: that goes on the beach and he makes like this

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Speaker 1: artwork on the beach to attract overhead mate, and he

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Speaker 1: lays out like an offering.

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Speaker 5: Of like they write books too, well, this is all

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Speaker 5: bird behavior, right, so that's what they're Yeah, they take

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Speaker 5: some you know, I mean, yeah, totally get I mean

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Speaker 5: it's it's bullshit because we can't possibly know. But they're

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Speaker 5: dixtrapolating from is bird behavior.

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Speaker 1: Current and they got a thing the science behind the show,

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Speaker 1: and they got thing. But when you're watching with a

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Speaker 1: nine year old, I can't help myself. I have to

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Speaker 1: pause it and be like, now you understand. You sound

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Speaker 1: like everyone they somehow have filmed. In his mind, they've

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Speaker 1: filmed dinosaurs.

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Speaker 4: Man, you're like ruining the Santa Claus.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's like, it's great, and even do this stuff

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Speaker 1: where it's like they even do parts of the night vision,

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Speaker 1: so you'll be like dinosaurs in a hole in the

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Speaker 1: ground and it's infra red. Then I'll pause and now

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Speaker 1: you realize, Yeah, I think this.

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Speaker 5: Is very important for you to do, because I think

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Speaker 5: it's very dangerous, right, you know, because different faces that

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Speaker 5: are like well you know, and you're like okay, and

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Speaker 5: you gotta you gotta be able to explain certain things

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Speaker 5: to certain people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we watch a little every night.

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Speaker 4: Man.

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Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating in parts of it. I need. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the Attinborough stuff kills me a little bit. God bless him,

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Speaker 1: he's been the bit is a long time. Uh, the

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Speaker 1: the the guesswork. But here's the biggest thing that blows

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Speaker 1: my mind, and I don't think this is guesswork. Dinosaurs

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Speaker 1: in the snow.

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Speaker 7: And the hair they have on them.

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Speaker 1: I had it in my head. I don't know. The

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Speaker 1: whole damn place is a jungle, but there were there

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Speaker 1: was a lot of dinosaur activity in the snow.

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Speaker 4: In this in this show.

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Speaker 1: But but they kind of lay the case out like

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Speaker 1: the poles, you know, the lamb Ass movement. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the poles are still.

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Speaker 4: Cold, they still stay they were.

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Speaker 1: And they had like yeah, they had sea. They was

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Speaker 1: like long dark you know. Course at that time they

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Speaker 1: had long periods of light and dark, just like we

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Speaker 1: do now. Right, So in areas that you had northern

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Speaker 1: areas that would that were inhabited by dinosaurs that had

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Speaker 1: total darkness in the winter, total daylight in summer, had snowfall,

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Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of this fake footage of

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Speaker 1: dinosaurs duke in it out in the snow, which is

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Speaker 1: just not something you think about it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the Smithsonian mag article, as you've written for

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Speaker 2: the Smithsonian from twenty twenty how dinosaurs thrived in the snow.

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Speaker 2: Discoveries made in the past decades helped snow help help, sorry,

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Speaker 2: help show how many species cope with cold temperatures near

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Speaker 2: both poles.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's okay, that's total news to me.

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Speaker 1: But at Borough Man he lays in more than one.

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Speaker 1: Liner's the hunter becomes.

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Speaker 4: The daunt.

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Speaker 5: You do got to tell the boys about uh, firehawks though,

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Speaker 5: because right, and I'm sure that's what yeah, because that

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Speaker 5: was that's what they're going off.

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Speaker 1: That's what they're going off of. They're taking things that

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Speaker 1: they know birds do and and just sort of randomly

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Speaker 1: assigning them. Now there's one more to gripe. I got

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Speaker 1: with the show.

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Speaker 5: You got to point out the fact too. It's like

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Speaker 5: you can't make something like this and not have fighting, right,

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Speaker 5: It's like the dinosaur spent a lot of time fighting.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, see now I find the fire hawk less.

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Speaker 1: Impressive if that has been going on, Yeah.

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Speaker 6: Sixty five million years and they have it advanced beyond

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Speaker 6: the right, Well they fly, yeah, but the whole the trickery,

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Speaker 6: the tools, the culture.

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Speaker 5: Oh, come on, Randall, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Randall changes off. He's the he's the use a

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Speaker 1: diaper's advanced just in his own life from diaper to doctor.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if you know he's PhD. You're sitting

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Speaker 1: next to that right and in history, I told you

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Speaker 1: Randalls has been looking at you with a condescending eye.

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Speaker 4: Should be.

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Speaker 1: Well, one more thing about it. They have there's a

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Speaker 1: lot of like so you know the flying reptiles back then,

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Speaker 1: the pterodactyles and all that. There's one of those things

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Speaker 1: as tall as a giraffe.

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Speaker 2: Okay, does it have a long neck like a giraffe?

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Speaker 1: And they got them all walking around on their elbows

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Speaker 1: so they land and then they bring their wings in.

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Speaker 1: Their wing tips are sticking up in the air and

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Speaker 1: they walk on all fours.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like the dragons.

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Speaker 1: And they got these huge Yeah, they got these huge

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Speaker 1: necks and heads. And I don't care, like I'll say

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Speaker 1: this right in the face of paleontologists. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what they look like. They didn't look like that, they

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Speaker 1: didn't like you got it. You got it wrong because

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Speaker 1: physics still existed, you know what I mean, like the

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Speaker 1: physical properties like it, like unless you're gonna come and

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Speaker 1: show me that sort of like ship that like uh,

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Speaker 1: what's his name? Einstein was into Yeah, well somehow not

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Speaker 1: applicable because I'm like, that didn't look like that. You

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Speaker 1: got that one.

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Speaker 6: We need to watch this. I think we need to

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Speaker 6: watch this. Throw it up on the screen.

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Speaker 3: And you know, there's some podcasts that do like sort

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Speaker 3: of movie watch along commentary where you press play on

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Speaker 3: the movie and press play on the podcast, and then

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Speaker 3: you have people like, you know, it's like a commentary

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Speaker 3: on a.

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Speaker 5: DVD or whatever. Idea.

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Speaker 3: It's just Steve just pointing out all of the inaccuracies

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Speaker 3: with my kids, with your kids.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's like she's riffing on the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: My kids going dead Mystery Science Theater exactly. That would

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Speaker 1: be so fun.

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Speaker 3: I mean it would be obnoxious as hell, but I'd

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Speaker 3: love it.

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Speaker 1: I'll just do that a lot. News from sort of

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Speaker 1: commentary from Catalina Island going back to going back to

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Speaker 1: episode four eighty eight, we discussed the proposal by the

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Speaker 1: Catalina Conservancy to eradicate non native black tail deer mule

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Speaker 1: deer from Catalina Island. They come up with a plant.

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Speaker 1: So Catalina Island is offshot. Well, it's an island off

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Speaker 1: the coast California, and they have a they got they

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Speaker 1: got a herd of buffalo that were brought out there

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Speaker 1: for a Western Zane I think it was a Zaye

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Speaker 1: Gray when they shot a Zaye Gray a new movie.

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Speaker 1: And they got deer they brought out there. The buffalo

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Speaker 1: are okay to hang out. The deer they want gone,

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Speaker 1: and so they're hiring their break there. There's a proposal

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Speaker 1: to use to bring in contractors to wipe the deer

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Speaker 1: out from helicopters. We're discussing it on the show and

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Speaker 1: we're saying, you know, as I often do, why would

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Speaker 1: you pay someone to go get something that people would

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Speaker 1: pay to go get. And we discussed this is why

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Speaker 1: not use why not increase or use the hunting permit,

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Speaker 1: the hunting permit process, it's already in place, and just

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Speaker 1: expand the hunting permit process. They've they've been given out

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Speaker 1: two hundred tags a year for deer. In twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, a guy who's been retired from California Department

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Speaker 1: of Fish and Wildlife for three years wrote in with

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Speaker 1: some commentary about this. I'm kind of going through his commentary.

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Speaker 1: He says in twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, we increase that

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Speaker 1: amount to five hundred tags. In an attempt to promote hunting.

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Speaker 1: To reduce the numbers on the island, California's Fishing Game

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Speaker 1: Department went and encouraged the cataline To Conservancy to work

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Speaker 1: with hunting conservation non governmental organizations to recruit hunters to

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Speaker 1: go out on the island. It's a long letter, but

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Speaker 1: basically he says that the conservancy is paying lip service.

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Speaker 1: There's a term for this that I can't I want

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Speaker 1: to use on Eric's try to limit the curse words

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Speaker 1: to grin. It's my favorite thing. You'd say if you

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Speaker 1: tell someone something and they kind of grin and go,

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Speaker 1: but they have no intention of doing it. They're grin

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Speaker 1: fing you, right, They're like You're like, They're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: we'll look into it. That's what people have been doing

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Speaker 1: to me all my life.

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Speaker 4: But I didn't know there was a term for it.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're like, hey, why don't you try? So

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Speaker 1: basically that the Catalina him saying when we discussed this

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Speaker 1: many episodes ago, we talked about there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of obstacles to conducting effective deer hunts on the island,

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Speaker 1: financial and otherwise. He goes on to say, we have

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Speaker 1: tried extensively. He had tried extensively to work with the

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Speaker 1: conservancy to overcome those hurdles, and they did not take

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Speaker 1: them seriously.

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Speaker 8: Well, they were the ones that made the hurdles, really

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Speaker 8: is what it amounts to.

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Speaker 1: And then now with the helicopter plan, they've got a plan,

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Speaker 1: like many things, where no one is happy. The helicopter

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Speaker 1: plan has the animal rights organizations up in arms, it

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Speaker 1: has the hunters up in arms, and you've gotten a

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Speaker 1: thing where and trying to please everybody, you've pissed off everybody.

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Speaker 1: And he says that, and he is not. This individual

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Speaker 1: is not on board with the idea that the hunting

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Speaker 1: plan just didn't work. That do a fair job.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 7: It was never really given a chance.

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Speaker 5: He's got a great point in here too, about like

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Speaker 5: unsubstantiated claims about the difficulty of hunting in the wild

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Speaker 5: land parts of the island. It's an island, it's completely

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Speaker 5: accessible by water at all points. In fact, there's many

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Speaker 5: different services out there, so you can circumnavigate the entire

400
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Speaker 5: island and kayaks. Really yeah, oh super cool, super cool.

401
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Speaker 5: And then you do that during lobster season. There's lobsters

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Speaker 5: all over that island, all sorts of good stuff to eat. Man,

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Speaker 5: And so I always think about that when I because

404
00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:21,840
Speaker 5: I had multiple people tell me it, Oh, yeah, you know,

405
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Speaker 5: there's no water, there's no Well, how the hell are

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Speaker 5: these other people? It's a big island to go paddle around.

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Speaker 4: How big is it?

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Speaker 1: I've been out there. I can't remember. Yeah, well, I

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Speaker 1: can't remember how.

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Speaker 4: Many acres it is, like how many miles?

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Speaker 1: Want is that the kind of island I feel like

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Speaker 1: you could drive around? I don't want to say. It

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Speaker 1: feels like a very limited roads. You can kind of

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Speaker 1: take it all in.

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Speaker 5: With a view, depending depending on how closely you follow

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Speaker 5: the shoreline. It's fifty two to sixty six miles to

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Speaker 5: circumnavigate Long Island eight miles across, So.

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Speaker 4: That well, that's substantially I there's got to be water

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Speaker 4: on that island.

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Speaker 5: There is, it's just it's it's very limited. And then

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Speaker 5: you know, like ice right is very limited and the

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Speaker 5: roads you know, so like boats. But I yeah, I've

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Speaker 5: I've been out there more than enough times to dream

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Speaker 5: up exactly how I would hunt that thing very successfully.

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Speaker 5: Like it doesn't seem to be real, not a problem

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Speaker 5: that doesn't seem to really stomp a fella.

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Speaker 1: Speaking to be able to take in how I said,

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Speaker 1: you can take it in into view from a distance.

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Speaker 1: So we we saw episodes ago. Had the director Werner

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Speaker 1: Herzog on the podcast. Got one thing I didn't ask

431
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Speaker 1: Herzog about that I wish I would have is he

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Speaker 1: has a movie called The Enigma of Casper Mansker, and

433
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Speaker 1: it's about a boy who was just raising a little

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Speaker 1: rock hut. They never let them, they kept them captive

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Speaker 1: his whole life in a rock hut, no interaction with

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Speaker 1: the ND. Later he was freed and like educated a

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00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,160
Speaker 1: little bit, but it had developed this very peculiar worldview

438
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:13,320
Speaker 1: from having been kept having been like deprived and kept

439
00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 1: locked up in a rock hut his whole life. Someone

440
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 1: mentioned him one time that you were in such a

441
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: small space, but now you have the whole world, and

442
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 1: he expressed that he viewed that space as being huge

443
00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: because everywhere he looked, no matter what direction he looked,

444
00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:40,280
Speaker 1: there it was. But when you're outside and you look,

445
00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 1: a thing is only in one place. Do you follow me?

446
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now that's a really interesting perspective. Well, I mean

447
00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,880
Speaker 4: it makes it makes logical sense. You can see how

448
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,360
Speaker 4: a human brain could configure it that way if if

449
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,080
Speaker 4: there was no other reference everywhere.

450
00:24:57,720 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 1: Now, when when H. Stephenson was traveling with the Eskimal

451
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: of the High Arctic and they would look through his telescope,

452
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,679
Speaker 1: they would refer to what they were seeing in the

453
00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: telescope and in a future tense, because that's when you

454
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:20,120
Speaker 1: would get there. That makes sense, right, what you would

455
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 1: get to tomorrow. They would discuss as though it's existing

456
00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,400
Speaker 1: in a future state, as when you.

457
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 4: Derive that's so it's like a visual future tension.

458
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, like, well, we're not there now, but there will be.

459
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: But there will be a mountain, there will be a creep,

460
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,080
Speaker 1: there'll be a time when we get there. And he

461
00:25:39,119 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 1: would get frustrated because when they would they would draw

462
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:45,400
Speaker 1: maps of islands for him, and they would the features

463
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,640
Speaker 1: that they utilized heavy would be huge. Le'saly's a huge

464
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: island with a small bay where they hunt waterfall waterfowl.

465
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: They would draw it for him, but it'd be like

466
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: a little island mostly consumed by a bay. In their

467
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 1: head like, well, who cares, Like go to the bay.

468
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:06,119
Speaker 1: Makes a lot of sense.

469
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 5: Way back when when I was doing lots of spot

470
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,080
Speaker 5: and stock mule deer hunting. Spend a lot of time

471
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 5: just face down as flat as you can get right, like,

472
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 5: especially in that like final one hundred yards, and sometimes

473
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 5: it would be hours of just trying to creep that

474
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 5: last little bit and when you would stand up, eventually

475
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 5: there would be like a little instance of like nausea

476
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 5: or vertigo and your brain like recalibrating to the scale

477
00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 5: of things as a standing human with a much further

478
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,920
Speaker 5: line of sight, whereas like you know that multi floor

479
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,879
Speaker 5: arose stuff out on the prairie, it's like eight inches tall.

480
00:26:58,440 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 5: You'd be like it'd be like a giant boulder you're

481
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 5: hiding behind, kind of like similar like to like diving

482
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:06,640
Speaker 5: down on reefs where you're like, oh, there's a little

483
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 5: tiny rock down there, and then you get down there,

484
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 5: it's like the size of VW type of thing.

485
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly.

486
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that was always pretty wild to me.

487
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 4: I can I can totally imagine that. You're like in

488
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:17,440
Speaker 4: an ant perspective.

489
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you're hyper focused, and.

490
00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 4: You're hyper focused, and then you know, and there's all

491
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,920
Speaker 4: sorts of things. You know, we have two eyes that

492
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,679
Speaker 4: do the triangulating with your vision and they have been

493
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 4: triangulating six inches away and now they're triangulating six miles away,

494
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 4: and they say there's something's wrong here. Yeah.

495
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, but that was always wild to me.

496
00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 1: One of the someone that got away, he died before

497
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:40,439
Speaker 1: we ever got him on. I was going to have

498
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 1: Barry Lopez come on the show. In an Arctic Dreams,

499
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 1: he's talking about a botanist who what was working on

500
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 1: a tussock, So cataloging all the plant species on a

501
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,720
Speaker 1: tussock and trimming it, which is like this little head

502
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: size clump of vegetation, and spending you know what, it

503
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: was better part of a day working on this tussic,

504
00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: like snipping, weighing, snipping, weighing, and then having this feeling

505
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: of then standing up and as far as the eye

506
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: could see in any direction, it was it's sort of

507
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 1: like you know, I mean the enormity, right, the enormity

508
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: of the place.

509
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's a doctor Seus's trick right where it's like

510
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,920
Speaker 5: the horton. Here's a who type of thing. Everything's on

511
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:28,479
Speaker 5: the head of the pit.

512
00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,680
Speaker 1: Here's a letter that I like this we were talking about.

513
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: I like this kind of LETTERCS it's a letter that

514
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 1: someone wrote in mad about something, but it winds up

515
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: they're wrong. The subject is a serious issue with Steve

516
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: not giving attention to something he's always bitched about.

517
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 5: Karin, you should have titled this Steve's wet Dream.

518
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:01,840
Speaker 1: He calls himself. So it's logan the Mountaineer Trapper. And

519
00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 1: he says, y'all are always bitching about national parks because

520
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 1: you can't hunt on them. And he goes on to say, well,

521
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: how come you haven't acknowledged the latest entry into the

522
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: National park's system, which is the New River Gorge of

523
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,160
Speaker 1: West Virginia. And he goes on to say it's the

524
00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 1: only national park where you are allowed to fish, hunt

525
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:39,160
Speaker 1: and trap within park boundaries, seventy thousand acres of hunting, fishing,

526
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 1: trapping ground now entrusted with National Park protections. And then

527
00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: some quote, I'm amazed that none of you have acknowledged

528
00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 1: the quote thing that you dislike the most in regards

529
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 1: to the other designations. Brody went on to say, yeah.

530
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,840
Speaker 8: I mean, look, it's great that you can do that

531
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 8: stuff in New River Gorge, fantastic, right, but fishing you

532
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 8: can fish in national parks all over the damn place.

533
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 8: You can fish in the Yellowstone and it ain't the

534
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 8: first national park you can hunt it.

535
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: But I pointed out that Broady. There's a difference because

536
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:22,560
Speaker 1: if you get like Rangu Saint Elias National Park and Preserve. Yeah,

537
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,080
Speaker 1: so in certain gates of the Arctic, there's a thing

538
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: called hard park and soft park.

539
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 7: Preserves and parks.

540
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of it gets kick out of that

541
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: hard park and soft park.

542
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 7: A lot of what we're talking about is in Alaska.

543
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, where they'll be like an area of the park

544
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: you can hunt, the area of the park you can't.

545
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 1: And I've even heard of people. Remember one time, I

546
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:49,120
Speaker 1: can't remember, I met someone who knew someone. They were

547
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: in the middle of nowhere, but they had killed a

548
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,560
Speaker 1: sheep on the wrong side of a ridge and they

549
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: were like, they killed a sheep in the hard park,

550
00:30:55,760 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 1: not the soft park. And there's a little bit of

551
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: brew how about that.

552
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,719
Speaker 7: But yeah, there's there's other stuff too.

553
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 8: There's national seashores, which would be like soft park, I suppose,

554
00:31:03,880 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 8: where you can hunt. But in Grand Teton National Park

555
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 8: you can hunt cow elk and certain parts of the

556
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 8: park at certain times of the year.

557
00:31:13,280 --> 00:31:15,280
Speaker 7: So sorry, New River gorge.

558
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 1: Sounds like Brody's turning into a National park apologist.

559
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 7: No I'm not, but you know you got to point out.

560
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 6: I mean, i'd consider myself a park man. You're I'm

561
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 6: a park man. I like to go look at large

562
00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 6: creatures that walk right up to you.

563
00:31:32,160 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 1: It's almost breaking up my marriage. My wife wants to

564
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:35,840
Speaker 1: go to glaciers.

565
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 5: Damn bad, oh Randall's marriage. They're very much at my

566
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,040
Speaker 5: wife's glacier, happy to the line at which they would

567
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:50,560
Speaker 5: become pro capital punishment, if not pro vigilanti. And it's

568
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 5: based off of their National parks experience.

569
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 1: Oh, just enforcing rules.

570
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 5: Yes, but you guys were talking about killing people who

571
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 5: broke the rules in national parks.

572
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: Randall thinks you have to. Rand thinks you should death

573
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: penalty people who break should.

574
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 6: This is probably an offhand comment fueled by some sort

575
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 6: of substance that that leaves one prone to exaggerating their feelings.

576
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: Well, that was the case, and my I have a

577
00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:27,800
Speaker 1: dear friend that wouldn't be with us anymore because when

578
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 1: he he he grew up here, and when he was

579
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: a boy, you would ride your horse into the park

580
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,800
Speaker 1: with a hack saw because burrels like elk burrels was

581
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 1: real popular for belt buckles, and they knew you weren't

582
00:32:39,720 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: supposed to take the antlers off the park, but who

583
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: really cared about the end. So that was a common

584
00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 1: thing in high school. Is the ride around hacksa on

585
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:53,440
Speaker 1: and off just the end, because like, come on? Was

586
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: it was their attitude? Come on?

587
00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 4: There's still.

588
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 6: I will say that there are Uh the flagrant disregard

589
00:33:02,840 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 6: for the norms of society that you see at national

590
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,960
Speaker 6: parks frustrates me and raises my blood pressure. When there's

591
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 6: like a big sign that says don't walk out onto

592
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 6: the alpine and then someone just walks out onto the alpine.

593
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would we do without Pierce bros Yeah, why

594
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: did Pierce Brosn get in trouble in the park.

595
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:24,280
Speaker 6: Well, he walked out towards the the hot Mammoth, the

596
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 6: geothermal features.

597
00:33:25,800 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 1: Was he in pursuit of a criminal mastermind? Well he

598
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: took no.

599
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 6: He there was a photo taken of him and he

600
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 6: posted it and someone said, what you're doing in that

601
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 6: photos against the rules, and.

602
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,480
Speaker 4: Well he could have been his last walk too. I

603
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 4: mean places in Yellowstone where you as you know, yeah,

604
00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:46,240
Speaker 4: you walk out there and suddenly the crust breaks in

605
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 4: your You're in like a lobster boil.

606
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 9: Yeah.

607
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, well he well, I don't want to.

608
00:33:50,600 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 8: Wish ill news they got all the rules, all the

609
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,720
Speaker 8: idiots would be dead anyway, randall right.

610
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, well we Yeah, I don't know. I I national

611
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 6: parks I think are a source of great uh frustration

612
00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 6: for me. But I also see what they have to

613
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 6: offer in terms of wildlife and landscapes.

614
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: And I just only going anywhere where I don't feel

615
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:18,120
Speaker 1: like I'm scouting. I can just buy anything by feeling

616
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: like maybe I'll see something that'll guide my future activities.

617
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: When I'm in the parking, there's nothing I can see

618
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: here that's going to influence anything.

619
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,239
Speaker 4: Have you ever gone in the in the deep in

620
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 4: the Yellowstone back country? Right on the edge of it,

621
00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 4: but like like in the center of the park. I

622
00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 4: mean that's what I hear about. That's where you go on.

623
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's even worse.

624
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 4: That's where I run my.

625
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 5: Track going into those places.

626
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:51,440
Speaker 1: Yellowstone, Beaver Pelts worth a lot of money, Guinelt, Yeah,

627
00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: I want Peter slogan is rare in hands teeth.

628
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,280
Speaker 8: I wanted thoroughfare once and I was just like man

629
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 8: can't can't hunt any of this really sucks, you know.

630
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 4: But but were you wait, did you get way back

631
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 4: in there?

632
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 8: And what a long time ago it's like in the

633
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 8: mid nineties.

634
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: To answer your question, I have not.

635
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:10,480
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have not, But I mean just not not

636
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 4: in terms of hunting, but just in terms of you know, oh, scout.

637
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 4: When you're saying scout, you mean scout for some living thing, like.

638
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:21,160
Speaker 1: I'm doing something that might impact something, Okay, right right,

639
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:24,040
Speaker 1: I go like, you know whatever, I don't know. A

640
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,000
Speaker 1: friend of mine just went on a pack rift trap,

641
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: one of our buddies. He was packgrafting, and he mentioned

642
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 1: casually mentioned seeing a couple of bears. Now I took note,

643
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,320
Speaker 1: and I was like, nowhere again. But if he was

644
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: in the park, it would have been in one ear.

645
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: And I know I understand that, I understand that. Here

646
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,279
Speaker 1: here's the thing I probably I shouldn't even be talking

647
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: about because we haven't looked into it at all. But

648
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: just just I'll point this out. Maybe cal maybe you've

649
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:56,239
Speaker 1: read up on this, someone wrote him. I have not

650
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,799
Speaker 1: vetted this. Maybe we shouldn't even talk about it.

651
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:03,319
Speaker 5: No, it's it's you vetted it. Yeah, I mean, there's

652
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,600
Speaker 5: a several other examples too, So.

653
00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 4: This is real.

654
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: This is a real mental tongue twister here. I live

655
00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: in Minnesota. This is someone right now. I live in Minnesota.

656
00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 1: And earlier this year, the Upper Sioux Agency State Park,

657
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: consisting of about two square miles, was transferred to the

658
00:36:19,239 --> 00:36:23,879
Speaker 1: Upper Sioux community. This land has a troubled history where

659
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: the federal government failed to provide promised food annuities and

660
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 1: as a result, Dakota people starved. He goes on. This

661
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 1: legislative session in the state Senate, a bill was introduced

662
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:41,880
Speaker 1: which would transfer state lands in White Earth State Forest,

663
00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: consisting of approximately one hundred and fifty five thousand acres

664
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: or just under two hundred and fifty square miles, to

665
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 1: the White Earth Tribe of northwestern Minnesota. The land currently

666
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 1: is a state forest in the public true and is

667
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 1: used for outdoor recreation by the public for small and

668
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 1: large game hunting, horseback riding, fishing, etc. Leaders of the

669
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 1: White Earth Tribe have stated that they would keep lands

670
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,400
Speaker 1: open to the public. However, the sort of guarantee that

671
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: being a state forrest has to the public would be lost,

672
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,479
Speaker 1: and ultimately access for the public to the land would

673
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 1: be up to the whims of tribal leaders. While I

674
00:37:27,800 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: think the land transfer is a noble attempt towards righting

675
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,160
Speaker 1: wrongs of the past, I do not agree with removing

676
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: lands from public use to further this goal. Currently, the

677
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: land is open to use for everyone, but transferring it

678
00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:46,480
Speaker 1: threatens that common use. For this session, the bill has

679
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 1: been tabled, but Senator Konish I don't know how he

680
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 1: pronounces his name, who carried the bill, has stated she

681
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 1: expects it to reappear in future sessions. I would appreciate

682
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 1: any considering on the topic and some of the Meat

683
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: Eater team's thoughts on this topic. I'll hate you with mine.

684
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 1: I'm going to keep it brief. I don't like to

685
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 1: see any under any circumstances anywhere public lands falling out

686
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: of the public trust.

687
00:38:16,520 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 4: Ever.

688
00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:20,839
Speaker 1: Ever, I don't care what it's for.

689
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 5: Yeah, but this could potentially, I mean, I agree like

690
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 5: staunch public lands advocate and want to keep them open

691
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:35,400
Speaker 5: to everybody. But just by like saying that, it kind

692
00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 5: of leans into this assumption that that access is going

693
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 5: to change and it's going to come out of public

694
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,920
Speaker 5: access or not provide the same level of public access

695
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 5: all this is saying, is that that management would change

696
00:38:50,160 --> 00:38:52,800
Speaker 5: and that would be like the only known right now.

697
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 5: But yes it does. With any management change, people like

698
00:38:57,200 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 5: to rearrange stuff and let folks know who's in charge.

699
00:39:04,120 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 5: So we don't know what we don't know.

700
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:09,520
Speaker 1: That's why I had to bring it up, I know.

701
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,280
Speaker 5: But yeah, the there I just saw over the Black Hills,

702
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 5: a nonprofit Cheyenne Youth group, Uh, just purchased forty acres

703
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 5: in the Black Hills as.

704
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 1: Off the open market.

705
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 5: Off the open market as an example of another like

706
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 5: would be like another example of like a land back

707
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 5: situation where this is going to be like tribal land

708
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:46,840
Speaker 5: in theory, held in perpetuity, but purchased purchased off the

709
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 5: open market. Yeah, and then like Vermont and Maine have

710
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 5: several examples of that too, So yeah, yeah.

711
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 4: Are you okay with that if it's on the open market?

712
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean it's yeah. I mean there's plenty of

713
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:05,880
Speaker 5: people who aren't. And it's a really fun conversation to

714
00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 5: have because it's like, well, what is illegal about what

715
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:09,440
Speaker 5: is wrong about this?

716
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:13,799
Speaker 1: And then also what goes against you know, that's an

717
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,920
Speaker 1: issue with the very controversial American prairie reserve in the

718
00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:21,480
Speaker 1: in this in the north central part of this state,

719
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:28,760
Speaker 1: which is buying ranches on the open market. Right ranch

720
00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: comes up for sale, you join the bidding process, and

721
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,120
Speaker 1: you buy it. And what they would like to do

722
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,880
Speaker 1: is just take the infrastructure out, take the fencing out,

723
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: with the long term goal of turning it into you know,

724
00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:44,800
Speaker 1: turning it into sort of like a pre contact prairie ecosystem.

725
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: And people that would be very much private property rights

726
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: right have a very like don't tread on me attitude

727
00:40:55,680 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: in general politically, will find it very offensive because it

728
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 1: is it sort of transcends the property rights issue and

729
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 1: gets into a removal of history.

730
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 4: Or a cultural It's a cultural threat, I think, a

731
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 4: threat to that ranching culture is my understanding. I mean,

732
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:17,680
Speaker 4: I'm not an expert in this.

733
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:18,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's very much.

734
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,839
Speaker 8: Like these coastal elites coming in here and buying up

735
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 8: you know.

736
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:26,640
Speaker 1: But it's changed, but it's conflicted by like, well but yeah,

737
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:28,359
Speaker 1: I I I understand that. But at the same time

738
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: I understand that. I feel like if you'd gone to

739
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,800
Speaker 1: ask someone like, do you feel that you should be

740
00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: able to do on your land what you want to

741
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:38,200
Speaker 1: do on your land. They would be like hell, yeah, yeah, okay,

742
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: then you need to extend you stort of need to

743
00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: extend that outward unless you're saying that certain things trump,

744
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: unless you're admitting that certain cultural things trump one's right

745
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: to do what one wants with one's land, right.

746
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 4: Well, by that argument, I mean, this is where I

747
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 4: get impatient with with a certain mindset that we see

748
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 4: a lot in Montana when people say, well, I'm a

749
00:42:04,280 --> 00:42:07,120
Speaker 4: fourth generation Montana or a fourth generation ranch or a

750
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,799
Speaker 4: fourth generation this or fifth generation that. And then well

751
00:42:10,840 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 4: and then you know, then you got the people who

752
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 4: are three hundredth generation and five hundredth generation, and so

753
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 4: you've got these guys who are fourth generation farmers or

754
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:24,399
Speaker 4: ranchers saying, well, this is our cultural history. And yet

755
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 4: it ignores this incredibly ten to fifteen thousand years of

756
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:34,560
Speaker 4: other history. And so you know what's the difference there.

757
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,640
Speaker 4: And with the point about the is it the white

758
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:46,840
Speaker 4: National Forest in Minnesota, white earth whiter? That's another It

759
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 4: strikes me that's another irony in that state forest, but

760
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:53,319
Speaker 4: state forest, state forest. And I've totally agreed that I'm

761
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,200
Speaker 4: never for closing public access to anything. I mean that

762
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:03,280
Speaker 4: I'm staunched as can be. But it's funny with a

763
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,880
Speaker 4: it's kind of a big irony that now it's the

764
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 4: the we'll just call the white guys who are worried

765
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:12,840
Speaker 4: that the tribes are going to break the treaty.

766
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, and it's.

767
00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 1: And won't let them, won't let them on the land,

768
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,839
Speaker 1: like we're losing all our lands.

769
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 5: We're pointing out to right that if you look in

770
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:29,719
Speaker 5: Minnesota on state forest land, like the there's plenty of

771
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:34,080
Speaker 5: threats to public access on state forest on on state

772
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:38,040
Speaker 5: forest and and it's in open pit, copper sulfide minds uh,

773
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 5: a giant helium deposit uh, you know, all sorts of

774
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:45,839
Speaker 5: things that state land is typically there to generate some

775
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 5: sort of income right there, and.

776
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 4: That's part of its mission in a way that and

777
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 4: so and that's a certain kind of public asset access

778
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,160
Speaker 4: which actually cuts out part of the public because it's

779
00:43:57,239 --> 00:44:00,760
Speaker 4: being made into a for profit resource, right yeah.

780
00:44:00,840 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 5: Yeah, And then you know, so like United Property Owners

781
00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 5: in Montana would be one of the groups that has

782
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 5: like tried to back legislation that would restrict a pr

783
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 5: from purchasing land or following through with with their business model.

784
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,480
Speaker 5: The legislation is real wonky because it is willing buyer

785
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:27,719
Speaker 5: willing seller situations. Uh So I was thinking the other day,

786
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 5: I'm like, would like Sherman Anti Trust Act be like

787
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 5: the way to it? You have a corporate entity that's

788
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 5: uh gobbling up the resource, right, would that be the

789
00:44:42,200 --> 00:44:42,520
Speaker 5: the way?

790
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 1: This is just just you're getting a you're gaining a

791
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:47,080
Speaker 1: regional land monopoly.

792
00:44:50,120 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, oh yeah, I've got another one along those lines.

793
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,840
Speaker 4: That's that's really been kind of eating away at me.

794
00:44:56,880 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: And this is we're supposed to switch to use here

795
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:00,680
Speaker 1: on your on your time.

796
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: Now, Okay, well this is how you'd like to use it, Well,

797
00:45:06,120 --> 00:45:06,880
Speaker 4: I'll make it about me.

798
00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 5: You want to go to the bathroom.

799
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 4: No, so this will feed into what I'm doing. I come,

800
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 4: you know, grew up in Wisconsin. Came from a huge

801
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 4: canoeing family, and so my grandparents were into my grandfather's

802
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,799
Speaker 4: way into rivers, my father on and on. My father

803
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 4: was also really into frontier history and Indians, and so

804
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 4: I grew up steeped in that frontier history. And one summer,

805
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,239
Speaker 4: my brother and I we grew up in a lake.

806
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 4: My mom still lives there in ninety two in Wisconsin

807
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 4: and yeah, doing well, I'm going to go back there

808
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 4: next week. And we took a canoe from my parents'

809
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 4: front lawn and we paddled from there to New Orleans

810
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 4: really yeah, without without getting out of the water.

811
00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: I feel like I maybe forgot knew about this but

812
00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:58,000
Speaker 1: then forgot it because it's somewhat Yeah, no, I'm not kidding.

813
00:45:58,360 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: And and so I'll load right up in the yard.

814
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 6: My buddy and I talked about that a lot, but

815
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 6: we never pulled it off.

816
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

817
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 4: Well, well, believe me, you know, it's not like a

818
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:11,440
Speaker 4: summer vacation because it's like punching in at the factory

819
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:15,440
Speaker 4: and doing eight hours or ten of hard, hard paddling

820
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 4: and then coming to a sandbar.

821
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: So it was a basic like walk me through the

822
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: basic like here to here, to hear, to hear.

823
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:22,799
Speaker 4: Okay, so this is this is where I'm getting into

824
00:46:22,800 --> 00:46:23,640
Speaker 4: the public access thing.

825
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 2: Uh.

826
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:29,400
Speaker 4: So this is a do you know about sub continental divides? Yeah,

827
00:46:29,600 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 4: and so this is the sub continental divide between the

828
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 4: Great Lakes system and the Mississippi Gulf of Mexico system.

829
00:46:37,640 --> 00:46:41,400
Speaker 1: Which was which was punctured by the Chicago Sanitation Canal.

830
00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 4: You are so right, Well, we're going to talk about that.

831
00:46:44,239 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 4: I went to Chicago Sanitation which was violated by the

832
00:46:47,239 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 4: Chicago Sanitation Canal, which has the electric fish barrier. Well

833
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 4: is that right?

834
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:52,440
Speaker 1: Okay?

835
00:46:52,760 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 4: Well, that that you know, because I've been writing so

836
00:46:55,760 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 4: much in in in these books, this most recent one

837
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 4: Gallop Towards the Sun to Compson, William Henry Harrison, and

838
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,640
Speaker 4: a lot of it takes place in that whole Midwest region,

839
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:09,200
Speaker 4: in the Ohio Valley and the Great Lakes, and and

840
00:47:09,280 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 4: so I've always been really cognizant of rivers, I mean

841
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: my whole life, and how they flow, and that one

842
00:47:15,440 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 4: of the most important geographical features in North America is

843
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 4: that subcont or mid continental divide between that where the

844
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 4: waters flow out the Great Lakes to the you know, Gulf,

845
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,440
Speaker 4: to the Saint Lawrence and into the Atlantic, and where

846
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 4: they flow from down the Mississippi or down the Ohio

847
00:47:39,760 --> 00:47:43,240
Speaker 4: into the Gulf of Mexico. So if you're an Indian

848
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:46,200
Speaker 4: or family Indian but birch bark canoe, I mean, you

849
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 4: could travel all over the place without really getting out

850
00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 4: of your canoe, which which they did. And people today

851
00:47:53,360 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 4: don't really understand what an interconnected system of waterways there is,

852
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:04,120
Speaker 4: there was, and there is in this continent if you

853
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 4: have the right craft and you know and you know

854
00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:07,600
Speaker 4: where to go.

855
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,880
Speaker 5: So and the benefits, right, like the safety, the safety

856
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 5: of being out on the open water with like a

857
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 5: lot of distance between you and thick brush, potential death

858
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 5: from animals.

859
00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah, it is safe safety. And

860
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:27,280
Speaker 4: so so one of the things that makes me crazy

861
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 4: about public access is stream access law. And I'm sure

862
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:35,880
Speaker 4: you guys have discussed this in Montana, and I'm I

863
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:36,479
Speaker 4: think now.

864
00:48:36,440 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 1: In New Mexico is kind of the battleground.

865
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 4: Is what's going on, and and you know, I'm sure

866
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 4: you've talked about at least as far as I know,

867
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:44,919
Speaker 4: we still have it. I mean, Montana is a really

868
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:48,920
Speaker 4: good stream access phenomenal that the high water mark is.

869
00:48:48,960 --> 00:48:51,480
Speaker 4: I mean you can venture up to the high water mark,

870
00:48:51,520 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 4: which can be a lot of a lot of ground.

871
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,920
Speaker 4: And but then I was thinking, like, there's this really

872
00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 4: important hordage in Wisconsin that was you know, it was

873
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 4: like the main interstate interchange of this whole part of

874
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 4: North America. And it's between the Wisconsin River and the

875
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 4: Fox River, so it's Green Bay.

876
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 1: Also it's a portage to get from the Mississippi system

877
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: to the Saint Lawrence system. Yes, this ship that goes

878
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:24,560
Speaker 1: into the Atlantic to the stuff that goes into the

879
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:25,280
Speaker 1: global Mexico.

880
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 4: And and you know where Green Bay, Wisconsin and which

881
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 4: was a very I mean it was a major Indian

882
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 4: village forever and then it was then it was a

883
00:49:33,760 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 4: really early purpost.

884
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: Who is the dude that got into Green Bay and

885
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:42,040
Speaker 1: uh put on a silk what they call a mandarin robe. Oh, yes,

886
00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 1: I know, he's like China. It was French guy, one

887
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: of those guys cross Lake Michigan. Get my silk robe.

888
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:58,319
Speaker 4: But then so, so there's this and my father would

889
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 4: tell me about this. Okay, it's it's called Portage, Wisconsin.

890
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 4: And oh and it connects those two.

891
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's so funny. I've seen that and

892
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: said that a million times in their.

893
00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:12,920
Speaker 4: Thoughts, and you never thought, yeah, because you grew up

894
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 4: not so far away, and you know there's a big

895
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 4: interstate that goes right by it. And so my brother

896
00:50:17,920 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 4: and I was out there ski racing with my brother

897
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,880
Speaker 4: this winter at a ski area right near the Portage,

898
00:50:23,920 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 4: and after we finished skiing, I said, hey, you know,

899
00:50:27,000 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 4: I've always wondered really what this looks like. And so

900
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 4: we started driving around and this portage it's really it's

901
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 4: like a marsh and it's not very long to get

902
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,799
Speaker 4: from one system to the other. So this summer we're

903
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 4: going to go and make that portage. Oh and what

904
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:47,680
Speaker 4: I'm wondering is like, okay, now in stream access law, Okay,

905
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:51,360
Speaker 4: here we are on one of the central routes across

906
00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 4: the continent in pre contact time. I mean, like you know,

907
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 4: fifteen lane highway this portage would be. And now can

908
00:51:03,640 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 4: you actually go across it? And it's a public land

909
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 4: or is it private land? And it's private land? Are

910
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 4: you allowed to go across? So what's your take on that?

911
00:51:12,880 --> 00:51:13,120
Speaker 1: No?

912
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 4: What you can't?

913
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,399
Speaker 1: Yes, you can't. No, Listen, I feel that, you know,

914
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:20,000
Speaker 1: I feel like you should.

915
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you.

916
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:26,480
Speaker 1: Know, follow the rules seems sticky, but should.

917
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 5: If i'll you first, what is your intent?

918
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:31,520
Speaker 4: Right?

919
00:51:31,600 --> 00:51:32,799
Speaker 5: That's what we talk about.

920
00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,880
Speaker 1: Exercise his historic portage.

921
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 4: Right, I'm gonna I'm gonna work to establish those.

922
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 5: You're not intending to loiter on private land. You're not

923
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:44,400
Speaker 5: in the harvest from private land.

924
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 4: It's straight straight, just to pass through.

925
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: And when some guy comes out in his yard and

926
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 1: yells at you, and you say, I'm trying to get

927
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,439
Speaker 1: from the Atlantic Waterway to the goal just.

928
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:56,919
Speaker 5: And that guy goes back.

929
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 1: You know a lot of guys have done this.

930
00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, but you know parts of it are when I

931
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 4: was really looking at it, it's like parts of it

932
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 4: are still marsh. You know, it's like you might be waiting,

933
00:52:09,800 --> 00:52:11,359
Speaker 4: you know, you might not even be in, Like what.

934
00:52:11,320 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: Is the what is the from when you leave a

935
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:17,320
Speaker 1: substantial piece of water? How many miles you got to

936
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 1: go to get in to another substantial piece?

937
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 4: It might be a few hundred yards.

938
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 1: Well that's it.

939
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah.

940
00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:27,279
Speaker 1: Oh have you started mapping it out on on X.

941
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 4: I'm about to though doing this in in July. Oh,

942
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 4: it's great, I'll send you a video.

943
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: You're right about it, obviously, yeah, yeah.

944
00:52:36,160 --> 00:52:38,879
Speaker 4: And you know I have I have another guy who

945
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:41,240
Speaker 4: might be interested in doing it with me. My brother

946
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:42,040
Speaker 4: wants to do it.

947
00:52:42,760 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: You know, I don't want you don't want to whole

948
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:46,520
Speaker 1: herd of you're going through there. I'd keep it tight.

949
00:52:48,200 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: We want to establish a president.

950
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, do it? Do it?

951
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:52,600
Speaker 5: Like the voyagers have about sixty of you.

952
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:56,280
Speaker 4: Everybody, everybody has one hundred and eighty pounds of beaver

953
00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:59,799
Speaker 4: pelts on your back. They can't stop you. Then it's

954
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 4: state commerce, right exactly.

955
00:53:02,360 --> 00:53:05,480
Speaker 1: Exercise the commerce called that's a fascinating idea, man, Like

956
00:53:05,600 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 1: what happened? I think you should call your article what

957
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 1: happened to the old portage? Anyway?

958
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:11,520
Speaker 4: Yeah?

959
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 6: Yeah, and if you could find the last record of

960
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:18,120
Speaker 6: someone using it in that great idea.

961
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 4: Man, it was a canal. It eventually was made into

962
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 4: a little canal, and then and then that was a bandit.

963
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 4: But I think from what I can see, the canal

964
00:53:24,840 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 4: is still there. I mean you might even just be

965
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 4: able to go take the canal. It's sort of choked

966
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 4: up with dead fall.

967
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,040
Speaker 5: There is new legislation in you'll way you guys along

968
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 5: when we do it for stream access revamp and stream

969
00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:41,719
Speaker 5: access I think in Indiana as well. So I mean

970
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 5: it's the stuff is still very much being tinkered with.

971
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:49,520
Speaker 4: That you're saying it's up now and getting kicked around.

972
00:53:49,760 --> 00:53:56,080
Speaker 5: Yep, yeah for sure. Yeah, because like there's plenty of

973
00:53:56,320 --> 00:53:57,799
Speaker 5: his historic use.

974
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,040
Speaker 4: I mean Indiana, I mean this is where this Tacompsa

975
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:04,160
Speaker 4: book takes place. That place is like a rife with

976
00:54:04,680 --> 00:54:08,880
Speaker 4: major passageways that people know nothing about. Today, and it

977
00:54:09,000 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 4: was like this huge travel system through their Fort Wayne.

978
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 4: The reason Fort Wayne is where it is is because

979
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:18,160
Speaker 4: it sits on it. You can't it's not like a mountain.

980
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:21,120
Speaker 4: It's this low knob sort of like a ridge line.

981
00:54:21,160 --> 00:54:24,320
Speaker 4: This is like your country, a ridge line, very subtle,

982
00:54:24,440 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 4: stretching south of Saint Erie, I mean saying a lake

983
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 4: Erie and through that kind of northern northern Indian, northern Ohio,

984
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:37,520
Speaker 4: Indiana and to some degree Illinois. And the rivers that

985
00:54:37,600 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 4: go north of that flow off that knob go into

986
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:42,880
Speaker 4: the Great Lakes, and those that go south of it

987
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 4: go into the Ohio river system and then the Mississippi

988
00:54:47,560 --> 00:54:49,919
Speaker 4: and the Gulf. And I means you know, you could

989
00:54:49,920 --> 00:54:52,480
Speaker 4: probably jump from one stream to another in a lot

990
00:54:52,520 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 4: of these places. And so those were when when Takompsa,

991
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:00,000
Speaker 4: you know and as forebearers the Shawnee and the Miami

992
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 4: me we're establishing villages. That that ridge was one of

993
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 4: the primary places where they established the villages. And when

994
00:55:10,320 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 4: the US under George Washington first, you know, he was

995
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 4: like in office about a year said that the Shawnee

996
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 4: and the Cheroke here are are you know, hurting our

997
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 4: settlers who are supposedly on legally taken land, which they

998
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:28,920
Speaker 4: were not. And George Washington says, Okay, we got to

999
00:55:28,960 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 4: go get those the Shawnee and the and the and

1000
00:55:31,680 --> 00:55:34,239
Speaker 4: the and the and the Miami, who are who are

1001
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:39,400
Speaker 4: killing settlers, and so he sent an expedition right to

1002
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,800
Speaker 4: that spot. K Kyonga was called to destroy those villages.

1003
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:44,759
Speaker 4: It was the epicenter.

1004
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:45,439
Speaker 1: Hmm.

1005
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:49,840
Speaker 4: But but it's it's that it's so Indiana. It's really

1006
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 4: interesting that there's there's so many waterways in Indiana that

1007
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 4: were used very extensively by by native people.

1008
00:55:58,680 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 5: And I'm like a for a person, love love floating,

1009
00:56:02,160 --> 00:56:05,640
Speaker 5: love spending my time on rivers, and yeah, you never

1010
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 5: hear Indiana as like this travel. No, you know, it's

1011
00:56:09,800 --> 00:56:13,600
Speaker 5: not a canoe destination, of which there's many canoe destinations.

1012
00:56:14,440 --> 00:56:17,120
Speaker 5: But I am like, do a lot of traveling and

1013
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 5: just reacting with people about natural resources and stuff. And

1014
00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 5: more often than not, when I point out a river

1015
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,440
Speaker 5: and I'm like, holy shit, that looks cool. You ever

1016
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 5: go float that, you ever go fish that, people are.

1017
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:33,640
Speaker 4: Nope, Yeah, yeah it is. I have that same experience.

1018
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 1: Hey, we're gonna let me, let me because we're do

1019
00:56:36,000 --> 00:56:38,200
Speaker 1: two things we're gonna we're gonna speed date. We're gonna

1020
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: speed date with Peter's books and his body work. But Cal,

1021
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: you want to, Cal had an update for us, then

1022
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna then we're gonna go into our speed dating

1023
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: mode with Peter's books. Uh.

1024
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 5: Is this the plug for the Week in Review? Is

1025
00:56:48,560 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 5: that what you're talking about?

1026
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:49,880
Speaker 1: Uh?

1027
00:56:50,800 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, Phil, you chime in here. I think they're going

1028
00:56:54,040 --> 00:56:56,560
Speaker 5: pretty well. But we add a new drop every week

1029
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:59,600
Speaker 5: to the Week in Review, and typically it's getting to

1030
00:56:59,680 --> 00:57:04,080
Speaker 5: know an issue or a conservation group a little bit better,

1031
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:08,359
Speaker 5: a little more in depth, versus taking the whole you know,

1032
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 5: twenty two and a half minutes that we do every

1033
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:16,040
Speaker 5: Sunday for the news. How do you think that's going, Phil?

1034
00:57:16,080 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 3: I think it's going great.

1035
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:17,040
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1036
00:57:17,080 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 3: So, if you guys haven't been paying attention to Cal's

1037
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:21,800
Speaker 3: weekn Review, he's been doing two drops a week for

1038
00:57:21,840 --> 00:57:23,520
Speaker 3: the last I don't know, a month now or so,

1039
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 3: and it's it's going to keep going and just some

1040
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:29,160
Speaker 3: really more in depth conversations with with these with these groups.

1041
00:57:29,160 --> 00:57:30,840
Speaker 3: And I think it's been it's been going really well.

1042
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 3: I don't know if what the feedback has been, but

1043
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 3: i'd assume it's been positive.

1044
00:57:34,440 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, all positive.

1045
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: No, if you dig the if you dig the kind

1046
00:57:38,360 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: of stuff that we talk about a lot of times

1047
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: up top of the show about certain you know, little issues,

1048
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: conservation issues that flare up around the country. This is

1049
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,280
Speaker 1: where you go to get to get the greater level

1050
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: of information, a deeper dive on such issues and organizations

1051
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 1: that kind of drive those issues.

1052
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:55,840
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1053
00:57:55,880 --> 00:58:00,320
Speaker 5: So the one most recent to when this show airs

1054
00:58:00,640 --> 00:58:06,520
Speaker 5: would uh spoke with a regional Pheasants Forever coordinator, Hunter

1055
00:58:06,600 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 5: Van Donsel, who's a wonderful human, very smart dude, smart

1056
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 5: enough to live on the high line in Montana even

1057
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,440
Speaker 5: Uh so he's got freedoms that we don't enjoy here

1058
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,960
Speaker 5: in the.

1059
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:22,280
Speaker 4: Gallatin Valley ruin extra wind, yeah, and.

1060
00:58:22,320 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 5: Extra wind all the wind you can handle, but h

1061
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 5: and we talked about how Pheasants Forever operates, what they

1062
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:31,600
Speaker 5: have going on.

1063
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:32,120
Speaker 1: And then.

1064
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:37,000
Speaker 5: Last year we spoke a lot about the grasslands, uh,

1065
00:58:37,320 --> 00:58:43,240
Speaker 5: which would be like, ah, like a KNACKA for grasslands

1066
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:47,240
Speaker 5: which national what's whatever my acronym there, Randall.

1067
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 6: You're talking about the North American Grasslands.

1068
00:58:50,040 --> 00:58:54,600
Speaker 5: Act, Yes, which would be a NAGA. Yeah, yeah, but

1069
00:58:54,680 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 5: anyway would be a new updated version of a bill

1070
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 5: which would be in something that would affect us nationally

1071
00:59:03,560 --> 00:59:11,360
Speaker 5: that would operate on the same system as our National

1072
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 5: Wetlands Conservation Act, which would be providing lots of private

1073
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:23,240
Speaker 5: and public funding and additional resources for the conservation of grasslands,

1074
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:26,520
Speaker 5: which grasslands is a big catch all world word of

1075
00:59:27,320 --> 00:59:31,440
Speaker 5: sage brush steps and mixed grass prairie and short grass

1076
00:59:31,440 --> 00:59:35,160
Speaker 5: prairie and lots of stuff that big gnarly meal deer

1077
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 5: bucks and antelope bucks, and bees and migratory birds and

1078
00:59:39,840 --> 00:59:41,520
Speaker 5: a lot of fun things that we like to chase

1079
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 5: and check out. Grasslands are going away at an alarming rate.

1080
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:48,560
Speaker 5: So that's why we're going to start working and talking

1081
00:59:48,600 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 5: a lot about the National Grasslands Act.

1082
00:59:51,080 --> 00:59:53,479
Speaker 3: Well its and it's all these organizations that we're throwing

1083
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 3: money at during trivia, but you could actually get to

1084
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 3: meet the humans behind these organizations, where their priorities lie,

1085
00:59:59,240 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 3: where the challenges li, where they're spending this money, and

1086
01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,919
Speaker 3: and hell they're helping you out. So it's been going great.

1087
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 3: I think it's really interesting.

1088
01:00:06,360 --> 01:00:08,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, this is like the one of the the pet

1089
01:00:08,440 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 5: peeves that I have of the ask cal email is

1090
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 5: when people write in they say, hey, tell me what

1091
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:21,080
Speaker 5: to think about this. And so this is another pound

1092
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 5: my head against the wall example of trying to give

1093
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:26,920
Speaker 5: you the information that you can make a decision on

1094
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 5: your own.

1095
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 1: I would never give up that.

1096
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:30,920
Speaker 6: I was gonna say a lot of people that a

1097
01:00:30,960 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 6: lot of people want that power.

1098
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:43,560
Speaker 1: They're envious of you, Peter.

1099
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 5: Uh.

1100
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,800
Speaker 1: Okay, what was was speed dating or speed reading? Speed

1101
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: dating your books? Okay, so you're what's that French word your.

1102
01:00:56,400 --> 01:00:57,360
Speaker 4: I think that's an omelet?

1103
01:00:59,640 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: So was your first book sudden what hell was it?

1104
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:04,160
Speaker 4: Last breath?

1105
01:01:04,240 --> 01:01:06,360
Speaker 1: Last breath? I was gonna say, sudden breath, sudden death,

1106
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: last Well, kind of yeah, that was your first book. Yeah,

1107
01:01:08,960 --> 01:01:11,040
Speaker 1: tell people about your first book. This is fascinating.

1108
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,760
Speaker 4: It is, Yeah. I mean it's kind of like got

1109
01:01:13,760 --> 01:01:15,280
Speaker 4: me into this world. While I was in this world,

1110
01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:19,600
Speaker 4: both Steve and I were we're doing articles for Outside.

1111
01:01:19,640 --> 01:01:23,120
Speaker 4: I'd started somewhat earlier and Outside, would you know, love

1112
01:01:23,160 --> 01:01:24,880
Speaker 4: it if you'd put your life at risk and then

1113
01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:28,520
Speaker 4: survive and write a good article about it? But that

1114
01:01:28,680 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 4: was sort of their their and at least in part,

1115
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:39,640
Speaker 4: and so at one point I came up with this

1116
01:01:39,680 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 4: crazy idea kind of like this portage idea. And I said, well,

1117
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 4: I wonder what happens if you get in a car

1118
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,919
Speaker 4: and in Missoula and and at our little apartment above

1119
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:53,520
Speaker 4: Goldsmith's Ice Cream When I was living with Amy, we

1120
01:01:53,520 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 4: were young marriage and drive north on a Highway ninety three,

1121
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:00,600
Speaker 4: and you just keep driving north on a highway and

1122
01:02:00,640 --> 01:02:04,440
Speaker 4: you don't stop, and you cross the border and you

1123
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 4: still go, and then you still go, and then you

1124
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:09,760
Speaker 4: still go, and like how far north could you go?

1125
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 4: And then I started thinking, I wonder if you just

1126
01:02:12,920 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 4: kept pushing, if there'd be some way you could ever

1127
01:02:15,920 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 4: get to Greenland just by going north out of Missoula

1128
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 4: on Highway ninety three. So my father in.

1129
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:26,680
Speaker 1: Law, who you really end up where one takes off from.

1130
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:32,560
Speaker 4: So and so, and my father in law, who was

1131
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 4: a foreign correspondent Great Adventure, had a VW van. He said, okay, yeah,

1132
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:38,600
Speaker 4: let's take my VW van. He was going to drive

1133
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 4: us up as far as we could get. And then

1134
01:02:41,440 --> 01:02:43,640
Speaker 4: Amy and I thought, okay, then we'll start trying to

1135
01:02:43,680 --> 01:02:46,720
Speaker 4: look for you know, planes or whatever we can find.

1136
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,600
Speaker 4: And so we spent like six days driving from Missoula

1137
01:02:50,800 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 4: up through due North and we got up to the

1138
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 4: Northwest Territories and essentially Highway ninety three ends in a

1139
01:02:56,800 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 4: Yellowknife and you guys have probably, oh yeah, big lake,

1140
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 4: very big leg. And then my father said, okay, I'll

1141
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 4: take I'll take the van. And then we started hopping

1142
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 4: like small kind of commercial flights that that would take

1143
01:03:14,680 --> 01:03:18,760
Speaker 4: you know, the natives around two different far northern villages,

1144
01:03:19,040 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 4: and we started hopping those and we got all the

1145
01:03:21,200 --> 01:03:24,880
Speaker 4: way over to Baffin Island, which is way on the

1146
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:27,360
Speaker 4: eastern shore and you know, it's a big punk of ice.

1147
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 4: And then we managed to in Baffin Island, we ran

1148
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,320
Speaker 4: into this German couple and the guy was like a

1149
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 4: big international lawyer and had a lot of money, and

1150
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 4: his wife was a watercolor painter and so she wanted

1151
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 4: to paint the Arctic, and so they'd hired this little plane,

1152
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 4: this little bush Arctic plane to go up to Ellesmere Island.

1153
01:03:49,600 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 4: And you know, Elsmere Island like if you're going to

1154
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 4: the North Pole, that's your jumping off point. You know,

1155
01:03:54,120 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 4: there's nowhere, no land has farther. And so we hitch

1156
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 4: I took him a couple you know days to do

1157
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 4: all this, and we got up to Elsmere Island. And

1158
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:09,000
Speaker 4: then we we we hired the plane from the German

1159
01:04:09,040 --> 01:04:10,920
Speaker 4: couple said you know, can we borrow it for like

1160
01:04:11,160 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 4: half a day and and uh and they said fine, fine,

1161
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 4: we'll just stay here. And it's called Greecefjord. It's like

1162
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:21,040
Speaker 4: ten houses on Elsmere Island on the southern shore with

1163
01:04:21,200 --> 01:04:25,040
Speaker 4: the like a you know, tunderous strip. And so then

1164
01:04:25,200 --> 01:04:28,439
Speaker 4: we had this pilot, Jock, who is like young guy

1165
01:04:28,840 --> 01:04:31,600
Speaker 4: retired from the Montreal Stock Exchange to be a you know,

1166
01:04:31,720 --> 01:04:36,240
Speaker 4: Arctic bush pilot. And so so Jacques says, okay, and

1167
01:04:36,600 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 4: I say, well, we want to go over there to Greenland.

1168
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 4: And you know, by that time, all these islands are

1169
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:44,520
Speaker 4: getting squished together because you're getting so far up in

1170
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:45,640
Speaker 4: the north, you know, I.

1171
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: Mean by like plate tectonics, they're just squished together by

1172
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,400
Speaker 1: by the North Pole, you know, everything they all converge

1173
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 1: us up there, you know.

1174
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 4: And and so the distance between this little landing strip

1175
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:02,080
Speaker 4: in Greece Fjord, Canada, and the farthest north villages in

1176
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:08,240
Speaker 4: the world they're Inuit villages Greenlandic Inuit villages around a

1177
01:05:08,280 --> 01:05:11,919
Speaker 4: place called Kannak. It's only two hundred miles apart. Over

1178
01:05:12,000 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 4: open water and so and so, you know, Jacques was saying, yeah,

1179
01:05:15,360 --> 01:05:17,800
Speaker 4: well I'll do that, or you know, Jack's blos said yeah,

1180
01:05:17,840 --> 01:05:20,120
Speaker 4: you can do that, and Jacques was like, okay, I'll

1181
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:23,200
Speaker 4: do it. And one of the problems was Jacques was

1182
01:05:23,240 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 4: a medical rescue plane, so it was used to landing

1183
01:05:27,960 --> 01:05:31,240
Speaker 4: on prepared airstrips. You know, it had so it had

1184
01:05:31,240 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 4: pretty small, small tires, you know, landing wheels, and it

1185
01:05:34,800 --> 01:05:37,200
Speaker 4: was a fairly sleek plane. It wasn't one of those

1186
01:05:37,240 --> 01:05:40,400
Speaker 4: big like balloony bush planes, but it was still you know,

1187
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:43,480
Speaker 4: it's pretty pretty all purpose. And so we get in,

1188
01:05:43,880 --> 01:05:46,280
Speaker 4: we get in. I'm spinning this story out. I could

1189
01:05:46,280 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 4: spin it for hours, but that uh, you know, early

1190
01:05:49,760 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 4: in the morning, beautiful sunny day like June, completely sunny,

1191
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 4: but everything, you know, seas completely frozen, their glaciers every

1192
01:05:56,760 --> 01:05:59,000
Speaker 4: which way. And we get on this in this plane

1193
01:05:59,040 --> 01:06:02,280
Speaker 4: and Jock's little plane, this little tundra airstrip and you know,

1194
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:05,960
Speaker 4: he he, he taxis out to position and then and

1195
01:06:06,080 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 4: I'm sitting in the front seat with him, you know,

1196
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:11,040
Speaker 4: and he on the earphones and then it's like we're

1197
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 4: waiting for the control tower and it's just go and

1198
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:21,720
Speaker 4: then we launch and then we're you know, flying over

1199
01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 4: the incredible northern scenery, you know, ice and islands and

1200
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 4: glaciers and you know, and this is pre GPS. This

1201
01:06:29,960 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 4: is in nineteen ninety ninety one, and so there were

1202
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:37,440
Speaker 4: none of this, you know, high tech computer satellite tracking.

1203
01:06:38,080 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 4: And so Jacques has like an aeronautic map on his

1204
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 4: lap and you know, trying to find his way to

1205
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:48,160
Speaker 4: Connacht over there, and by now you're so far north

1206
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,040
Speaker 4: at the magnetic compass point.

1207
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:55,840
Speaker 1: Southwest in the declaration is like about it.

1208
01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 4: It's like almost exactly the opposite. And so we're flying

1209
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,560
Speaker 4: north and I mean we're flying, you know, across this

1210
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 4: gap to a different continent, two hundred miles of water.

1211
01:07:06,880 --> 01:07:09,439
Speaker 4: And you know, after about a half an hour, we're

1212
01:07:09,600 --> 01:07:12,120
Speaker 4: driving along this beautiful weather and Amy's in the back

1213
01:07:12,160 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 4: and we have all our skis and stuff, crampons for Greenland,

1214
01:07:15,760 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 4: you know, and and and Jack has this map and

1215
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,240
Speaker 4: folded in his lap, and he says, at a certain

1216
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:23,120
Speaker 4: point he just goes, He just kind.

1217
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:24,480
Speaker 1: Of crumbles it up in a ball and shoves it

1218
01:07:24,520 --> 01:07:26,439
Speaker 1: in my lab. He says, I can't figure out where

1219
01:07:26,440 --> 01:07:26,919
Speaker 1: we are safe.

1220
01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 7: You Canada.

1221
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:37,640
Speaker 5: And anyway, eventually that's tied exercise at that point here.

1222
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,920
Speaker 4: On the clock. Yeah, and the plus green that was

1223
01:07:41,960 --> 01:07:45,080
Speaker 4: clouded in, you know, and and but he found a

1224
01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 4: hole in the clouds. It was like really it was

1225
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 4: very dramatic. And and as we dropped through the hole

1226
01:07:50,320 --> 01:07:52,360
Speaker 4: in the clouds, you look down and there's this huge

1227
01:07:52,440 --> 01:07:57,200
Speaker 4: expanse of sea ice, massive fjord, and I could see

1228
01:07:57,240 --> 01:08:00,600
Speaker 4: these little they look like little wagon trains running along

1229
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,360
Speaker 4: and I realized those are dog slits. Oh, and they're

1230
01:08:05,440 --> 01:08:09,320
Speaker 4: way out on the sea ice. And so we we

1231
01:08:10,480 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 4: circled around this little village and Jack was really nervous

1232
01:08:14,320 --> 01:08:17,040
Speaker 4: about landing, and you know, the airstrips like a cliff

1233
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:19,400
Speaker 4: at one side, a cemetery on the other, and it's

1234
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:22,920
Speaker 4: all kind of lumpy, and so he's finally on the

1235
01:08:22,960 --> 01:08:26,120
Speaker 4: third try, just puts it down all crack. You know.

1236
01:08:26,240 --> 01:08:29,080
Speaker 4: We go spinning down the runway like fish tailing down

1237
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:31,720
Speaker 4: because the landing gear breaks off when we went. And

1238
01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 4: so we're in Greenland. And so to make the long

1239
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:41,799
Speaker 4: story short, we ended up hanging out with the Inuit

1240
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:44,760
Speaker 4: hunters on the sea ice. And in this region of

1241
01:08:44,800 --> 01:08:48,480
Speaker 4: Greenland they still hunt I think still do the traditional

1242
01:08:48,479 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 4: way with with kayaks and harpoons. Snowmobiles are banned, literally banned.

1243
01:08:52,840 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 4: Oh kidd and yeah, I mean you'd be you'd be

1244
01:08:55,200 --> 01:08:56,080
Speaker 4: totally into this thing.

1245
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:56,599
Speaker 1: That's interesting.

1246
01:08:56,640 --> 01:08:58,160
Speaker 4: They got out ahead of that, and then want they

1247
01:08:58,200 --> 01:09:00,320
Speaker 4: got way ahead of it. Yeah, and I hope, I hope.

1248
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 4: I'm really curious. I it was still like that. And

1249
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 4: so we went out twice on two expeditions on the

1250
01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:10,000
Speaker 4: sea ice with with hunters. One a dog sled and

1251
01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:13,200
Speaker 4: you know, and you have this sealskin kayaks strapped to

1252
01:09:13,240 --> 01:09:15,680
Speaker 4: the dogs, letter two of them. And you get out

1253
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:18,760
Speaker 4: there and you're hunting for narwhale and they're out in

1254
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:21,600
Speaker 4: these the leads, you know, the cracks and ice, but

1255
01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,200
Speaker 4: way I you know, like twenty miles out before you

1256
01:09:24,240 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 4: get to there, the ice starts cracking up. And then

1257
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,040
Speaker 4: and we got stormed out of that one.

1258
01:09:31,120 --> 01:09:34,679
Speaker 1: You didn't have to get a toss you're looking to unload.

1259
01:09:36,080 --> 01:09:38,160
Speaker 1: You don't have to have a narwhale tuss you're looking

1260
01:09:38,160 --> 01:09:41,759
Speaker 1: to get. You didn't bring one home.

1261
01:09:42,040 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 4: No, I know almost, but I wasn't gonna get in

1262
01:09:45,920 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 4: the kayak with a hard food.

1263
01:09:47,200 --> 01:09:47,640
Speaker 1: Believe me.

1264
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 4: It's like you tip over in that kayak, and that's

1265
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:54,479
Speaker 4: all she wrote. And it's but it's a wild scene.

1266
01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:57,680
Speaker 4: And then we got stormed out that time and had

1267
01:09:57,680 --> 01:10:00,639
Speaker 4: to kind of flee a storm to get back. Dog said,

1268
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:03,240
Speaker 4: back to the to the village. And then another time

1269
01:10:03,600 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 4: a few weeks later, the ice had broken out and

1270
01:10:05,320 --> 01:10:08,479
Speaker 4: we went out and boats and did the same thing,

1271
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,040
Speaker 4: and we our guys, you know, they came close. They

1272
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:14,360
Speaker 4: almost got in our whale, but then but but not,

1273
01:10:14,479 --> 01:10:16,760
Speaker 4: and then and then we decided. Amy said, well, you know,

1274
01:10:16,800 --> 01:10:20,280
Speaker 4: I really have to get back home now. She had

1275
01:10:20,400 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 4: I can't remember. She had some hard deadline, and so

1276
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:26,600
Speaker 4: like we're almost at the North Pole and we have

1277
01:10:26,720 --> 01:10:30,800
Speaker 4: to like turn this whole expedition to go home, which

1278
01:10:30,840 --> 01:10:34,519
Speaker 4: takes like a month to get home. And the reason

1279
01:10:34,600 --> 01:10:37,960
Speaker 4: this story started is because when we were up there

1280
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 4: and it's like fourth of July, we're on the sea ice.

1281
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:44,080
Speaker 4: We're in this dog sled and it's like a sunny day.

1282
01:10:44,479 --> 01:10:46,960
Speaker 4: The other day it was blizzardy day. But we have

1283
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:51,439
Speaker 4: our full Montana skik ear on and these guys, the

1284
01:10:51,520 --> 01:10:56,840
Speaker 4: Inuit hunters are wearing Mama Root and another guy, Thomas,

1285
01:10:57,280 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 4: and they're wearing you know, really good veteran hunters. There

1286
01:10:59,840 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 4: were ring like white wind light wind breakers white because

1287
01:11:03,840 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 4: that's you know, to just got for a camouflage, and

1288
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:10,400
Speaker 4: like thin you know, like almost silk white gloves and

1289
01:11:10,479 --> 01:11:13,040
Speaker 4: that's all. And we're just like dying of cold, and

1290
01:11:13,080 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 4: they're like, you know, no problem. And so when I

1291
01:11:15,960 --> 01:11:18,800
Speaker 4: got home, I started thinking, what is it about the

1292
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:21,880
Speaker 4: physiology of cold? And then I came up with this

1293
01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:25,599
Speaker 4: idea for Outside magazine to write about the physiology of cold.

1294
01:11:26,600 --> 01:11:29,160
Speaker 4: And I had this notion that I'd go out and

1295
01:11:29,400 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 4: camp out at Rogers Pass on the coldest night of

1296
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:36,360
Speaker 4: the winter, at the coldest place in the lower forty

1297
01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 4: eight states, and see how that was, you know, as

1298
01:11:41,479 --> 01:11:43,960
Speaker 4: a first person experience for Outside.

1299
01:11:44,000 --> 01:11:45,519
Speaker 1: See how I was to get real cold.

1300
01:11:45,840 --> 01:11:47,840
Speaker 4: Yeah. And then as it turned out that when that

1301
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,640
Speaker 4: cold came along, that cold stand was fifty below with

1302
01:11:50,720 --> 01:11:54,320
Speaker 4: fifty mile an hour winds. And I said, you know,

1303
01:11:54,360 --> 01:11:56,519
Speaker 4: I have like a two year old daughter at home,

1304
01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:59,200
Speaker 4: and I'm thinking this might be a one way, one

1305
01:11:59,240 --> 01:12:02,479
Speaker 4: way camp. And so I called you you'll appreciate this.

1306
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:05,360
Speaker 4: Mark Brian was our editor at Outside, and so I

1307
01:12:05,400 --> 01:12:07,760
Speaker 4: called Mark Brian and I said, I don't think I'm

1308
01:12:07,760 --> 01:12:11,479
Speaker 4: going to do this, you know, it's like it's way

1309
01:12:11,520 --> 01:12:14,600
Speaker 4: too cold, And I said, well, how about if I

1310
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 4: just camp in the backyard, it's gonna be like twenty below. No,

1311
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:19,800
Speaker 4: we don't want you to camp in the backyard. Why

1312
01:12:19,840 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 4: do you invent a story of a guy who goes

1313
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:25,800
Speaker 4: out in really cold weather and then goes through all

1314
01:12:25,840 --> 01:12:29,800
Speaker 4: the physiology of cold And so that's what I ended

1315
01:12:29,920 --> 01:12:31,840
Speaker 4: up doing, And I wrote it in the you the

1316
01:12:31,880 --> 01:12:35,000
Speaker 4: second person voice, and I essentially stole the plot line

1317
01:12:35,120 --> 01:12:40,120
Speaker 4: from to Build a Fire where Else? And so the

1318
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 4: story it's called now it's called it has a hundred

1319
01:12:43,640 --> 01:12:46,599
Speaker 4: different names. It's because it's been around twenty five years

1320
01:12:46,600 --> 01:12:48,520
Speaker 4: and it goes viral every winter.

1321
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:49,400
Speaker 1: In a cold snap.

1322
01:12:49,760 --> 01:12:52,639
Speaker 4: It's called I think it's called Frozen Alive at this point.

1323
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:55,680
Speaker 4: But it's this really kind of eerie story about a

1324
01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:59,799
Speaker 4: guy who's trying to visit his friends at a mountain

1325
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:03,719
Speaker 4: cat on a winter night and it's twenty below or something,

1326
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,720
Speaker 4: and he's driving his jeep up this winding road and

1327
01:13:06,760 --> 01:13:09,880
Speaker 4: he you know, spins off into a snow bank, and

1328
01:13:10,280 --> 01:13:12,200
Speaker 4: you know, he's stuck, but he still wants to go

1329
01:13:12,240 --> 01:13:15,280
Speaker 4: to the cabin. And he has his cross country skis

1330
01:13:15,320 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 4: and he says, well, I just ski to the cabin.

1331
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:19,280
Speaker 4: You know, it's this beautiful moonlit night. You know, it's

1332
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:22,120
Speaker 4: only five miles or so. You know, I run that

1333
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:25,240
Speaker 4: far every every morning before breakfast. And then you can

1334
01:13:25,280 --> 01:13:32,360
Speaker 4: imagine how it goes from there. Not well, but you know,

1335
01:13:32,439 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 4: it's like it's it's I trace his physiology, you know

1336
01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:39,880
Speaker 4: that that he gets up a certain point and then

1337
01:13:40,240 --> 01:13:42,760
Speaker 4: the clip on his binding breaks and he has to

1338
01:13:42,800 --> 01:13:45,760
Speaker 4: dig in the snow to find it. And as you know,

1339
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:50,360
Speaker 4: now his body temperatures is dropping from like ninety five

1340
01:13:50,479 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 4: down to ninety three. And at that point the brain

1341
01:13:53,120 --> 01:13:55,240
Speaker 4: function starts to slow down. And then at this point

1342
01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:58,040
Speaker 4: kidney function starts to slow down. You know. It goes

1343
01:13:58,080 --> 01:14:02,599
Speaker 4: through the whole thing, and he does surve but it

1344
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:05,760
Speaker 4: ended up being this huge hit of a story. And

1345
01:14:05,800 --> 01:14:08,400
Speaker 4: then and then so I thought, well, maybe I'll write

1346
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,240
Speaker 4: a whole book like that. So I wrote a whole

1347
01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,040
Speaker 4: book called Last Breath. It's like eleven Great Ways to

1348
01:14:13,080 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 4: Die in the Wilderness.

1349
01:14:14,280 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 1: And I remember you did the box Jelly, Yeah, the

1350
01:14:17,000 --> 01:14:19,599
Speaker 1: box Jelly, Yeah, Well talk about that ever there?

1351
01:14:20,880 --> 01:14:23,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, I was trying to find the most you know, poisonous,

1352
01:14:23,160 --> 01:14:27,680
Speaker 4: most toxic, most venomous creature. And it turned out to

1353
01:14:27,680 --> 01:14:30,400
Speaker 4: be the box jellyfish. You got any of you guys

1354
01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:31,080
Speaker 4: familiar with that?

1355
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:35,040
Speaker 1: The box jelly fish one, I know it exists, but

1356
01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,000
Speaker 1: I've never never seen one, never been swimming with a

1357
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: box jelly fish. No, we've got hanging up those little

1358
01:14:41,000 --> 01:14:44,519
Speaker 1: man not little Yeah, Yeah, that hurts. And then the

1359
01:14:44,560 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 1: lion's main ones hurt.

1360
01:14:46,400 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've heard. I've never been in those guys box

1361
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:50,920
Speaker 4: jelly Well, in the in the box jelly fish, it's

1362
01:14:51,000 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 4: you know, they say it's the size of like a grapefruit,

1363
01:14:53,120 --> 01:14:57,240
Speaker 4: but it has this incredibly powerful neurotoxin and and you

1364
01:14:57,280 --> 01:14:59,479
Speaker 4: can be dead in like two minutes with a box

1365
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,920
Speaker 4: jelly fish. And it's you know, and I traced all

1366
01:15:03,000 --> 01:15:07,479
Speaker 4: the chemistry of that. You know. The setup was a

1367
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:11,640
Speaker 4: couple on their honeymoon in northeastern Australia, and you know,

1368
01:15:12,240 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 4: the guy takes a dive in the water, and you know,

1369
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:16,519
Speaker 4: they're sort of fighting, and the guy takes a dive

1370
01:15:16,560 --> 01:15:19,000
Speaker 4: in and get to you know, sort of get away

1371
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:19,880
Speaker 4: from her, and it's like.

1372
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:23,720
Speaker 1: What other one doesn't.

1373
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:27,280
Speaker 4: Survive dodged the bullet.

1374
01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:29,880
Speaker 1: Was there a falling one?

1375
01:15:30,120 --> 01:15:32,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, I had, Oh yeah, that was That was a

1376
01:15:32,360 --> 01:15:34,680
Speaker 4: fun one because I created a real turk, you know,

1377
01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:39,680
Speaker 4: and you know, like a real type, a hyper in

1378
01:15:39,720 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 4: your face jerk who is like, I'm the hottest rock

1379
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 4: climber there ever was. And and he goes he's going

1380
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:50,280
Speaker 4: rock climbing, climbing one Saturday morning and his buddy stands

1381
01:15:50,320 --> 01:15:52,360
Speaker 4: him up. So he says, I'll do it alone and

1382
01:15:52,479 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 4: you know, free climbate and he he uh, he gets

1383
01:15:57,080 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 4: part way up and he peels off and he falls,

1384
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:03,599
Speaker 4: I don't know, like thirty feet lands on a ledge,

1385
01:16:04,400 --> 01:16:09,000
Speaker 4: really hard slam, and I don't do you know. Doug Weber,

1386
01:16:09,080 --> 01:16:12,479
Speaker 4: he was an er doctor in Missoula. He was the

1387
01:16:12,479 --> 01:16:14,640
Speaker 4: one who gave me this scenario because I was just

1388
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:17,360
Speaker 4: going to have some guy like go tumbling down a

1389
01:16:17,360 --> 01:16:20,599
Speaker 4: steep slope and you know, flipping around. He said, well,

1390
01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 4: you can make that a lot more interesting because you know,

1391
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:26,680
Speaker 4: when somebody takes a real fall, and it happens in

1392
01:16:26,800 --> 01:16:30,800
Speaker 4: car accidents too, it's I mean, it's like tragic stuff

1393
01:16:30,800 --> 01:16:37,000
Speaker 4: when it happens to somebody that that sudden deceleration can

1394
01:16:37,640 --> 01:16:43,040
Speaker 4: pull your heart forward and it causes a or to

1395
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:46,200
Speaker 4: to have a like a weak spot in it, like

1396
01:16:46,200 --> 01:16:48,559
Speaker 4: a bubble. You know, I was basing not the name

1397
01:16:48,600 --> 01:16:53,400
Speaker 4: for it. And that you know, it's you can either

1398
01:16:54,280 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 4: can either break right then or sometimes it kind of

1399
01:16:57,240 --> 01:16:58,120
Speaker 4: lasts for a while.

1400
01:16:58,200 --> 01:17:00,800
Speaker 7: Are you feeling that right now, Steve? Yeah, you usually do.

1401
01:17:04,560 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 5: He didn't cut to his camera, but he made a

1402
01:17:06,280 --> 01:17:08,240
Speaker 5: face and.

1403
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:09,679
Speaker 1: You know, things I don't like hearing about.

1404
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:12,800
Speaker 4: And so yeah, this guy, well you didn't, don't fall

1405
01:17:12,840 --> 01:17:16,400
Speaker 4: thirty feet on your back into a ledge and you're okay.

1406
01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:20,679
Speaker 4: But so this guy falls and he and he really

1407
01:17:20,720 --> 01:17:22,640
Speaker 4: slams and he you know, and then he kind of

1408
01:17:23,479 --> 01:17:26,000
Speaker 4: dug The er doc said, yeah, and you typically throw

1409
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:28,880
Speaker 4: up right then because this is your body, what it does,

1410
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:32,240
Speaker 4: the physiology. And then and then the guy realized that,

1411
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:36,040
Speaker 4: well he's still alive, you know, he's didn't even really

1412
01:17:36,040 --> 01:17:38,599
Speaker 4: get knocked out too severely, but he has a broken leg.

1413
01:17:39,320 --> 01:17:42,000
Speaker 4: And so you know, this guy's I'm just painting him

1414
01:17:42,000 --> 01:17:45,680
Speaker 4: as the biggest asshole I can. And so he's up

1415
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,360
Speaker 4: on this ledge and he lasts the night, you know,

1416
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,599
Speaker 4: and he dawn comes and he thinks I've got it,

1417
01:17:52,640 --> 01:17:55,640
Speaker 4: you know. And also there's a sing in the in

1418
01:17:55,680 --> 01:17:58,719
Speaker 4: the er world called called the Golden hour. You probably

1419
01:17:58,800 --> 01:18:00,880
Speaker 4: heard of that. It's like the first hour after one

1420
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 4: of these really traumatic uh body impacts accidents, that that

1421
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:09,880
Speaker 4: your your body can kind of hold itself together for

1422
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:12,479
Speaker 4: an hour, and they call it the golden hour. I mean,

1423
01:18:12,479 --> 01:18:15,559
Speaker 4: it doesn't know what's happened, but it can. So he

1424
01:18:15,640 --> 01:18:17,840
Speaker 4: gets past the Golden hour and he lasts all night

1425
01:18:17,880 --> 01:18:21,839
Speaker 4: and in the morning he's like, I'm alive, I'm alive.

1426
01:18:22,880 --> 01:18:29,480
Speaker 4: And when he does that, he bursts a arctic uh.

1427
01:18:29,520 --> 01:18:31,800
Speaker 4: And that's all she wrote.

1428
01:18:33,000 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 6: This doesn't sound like it was any fun to write.

1429
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:39,559
Speaker 1: Give give a cup more than are in. I remember,

1430
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:41,559
Speaker 1: I remember, I'm trying to remember, man, I remember that

1431
01:18:41,680 --> 01:18:42,120
Speaker 1: there was hype.

1432
01:18:42,280 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 4: Well, I said, I said, in some do.

1433
01:18:44,320 --> 01:18:46,360
Speaker 1: You do hYP do you do hyper thermia?

1434
01:18:46,439 --> 01:18:48,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, And that's what I said. I've sent it in

1435
01:18:48,160 --> 01:18:51,320
Speaker 4: some notes that I sent to Corene that out of

1436
01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,320
Speaker 4: that whole book. You know, sometimes people ask me, what

1437
01:18:53,320 --> 01:18:55,439
Speaker 4: what's the what's the what do you think is the

1438
01:18:55,520 --> 01:18:57,519
Speaker 4: worst way to die in you know, the outdoors? And

1439
01:18:57,560 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 4: I would say, oh god, you know, none of them

1440
01:18:59,560 --> 01:19:02,679
Speaker 4: are good. That's you know, it's nobody wants any of those,

1441
01:19:02,680 --> 01:19:04,920
Speaker 4: and nobody wants any of those from anybody they know.

1442
01:19:06,200 --> 01:19:10,479
Speaker 4: But that I think hyper thermia would be the hyper that.

1443
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:14,880
Speaker 4: So hypothermia, of course is low low body temperature. High

1444
01:19:14,960 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 4: hyper thermia is high high high body temperature. And what

1445
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:23,840
Speaker 4: that gets to a certain point where and you know,

1446
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:27,640
Speaker 4: I've I realized how on the edge I'd been of

1447
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:30,000
Speaker 4: that in certain moments. You know, I used to run

1448
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:32,920
Speaker 4: up Mount Jumbo every day in the height of the

1449
01:19:32,960 --> 01:19:35,200
Speaker 4: summer heat, and you know, I could feel my body

1450
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:39,800
Speaker 4: doing this weird ship. Yeah, And and that it's really

1451
01:19:39,840 --> 01:19:43,040
Speaker 4: amazing how quickly you can go over the edge into

1452
01:19:43,479 --> 01:19:47,360
Speaker 4: a heat, heat stroke or hyperthermia, and that that it's

1453
01:19:47,479 --> 01:19:50,280
Speaker 4: it gets to a point where your body can no

1454
01:19:50,400 --> 01:19:54,439
Speaker 4: longer cool itself down, Like the mechanisms that you use

1455
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:58,680
Speaker 4: to cool yourself down, like sweating and various other mechanisms

1456
01:19:58,840 --> 01:20:03,040
Speaker 4: are are overwhelm helmed. And at that point your body

1457
01:20:03,240 --> 01:20:07,240
Speaker 4: actually starts heating up more and and it's like a

1458
01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,959
Speaker 4: like a nuclear furnace, you know, reactor that's out of control.

1459
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,400
Speaker 1: And then it gets.

1460
01:20:13,160 --> 01:20:16,679
Speaker 4: Really nasty that your organs start perforating in furious ways,

1461
01:20:17,439 --> 01:20:21,639
Speaker 4: and so you just start getting multiple organ failure and

1462
01:20:21,680 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 4: it's just I mean, it's really awful physiological Was that.

1463
01:20:24,320 --> 01:20:29,920
Speaker 1: Really promising young writer? I think Ian Fraser knew him

1464
01:20:29,920 --> 01:20:34,200
Speaker 1: as well. And he died of hyperthermia in Africa? Was

1465
01:20:34,200 --> 01:20:36,600
Speaker 1: his name Shepherd or something? I don't know.

1466
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,200
Speaker 4: I'm not I'm not striking a bell, it's not striking.

1467
01:20:39,320 --> 01:20:41,400
Speaker 1: I feel like he was an outside writer too, Does

1468
01:20:41,439 --> 01:20:43,040
Speaker 1: that right? Died of hyperthermia?

1469
01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:45,559
Speaker 4: Well I can, I can believe it. And then I

1470
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:47,040
Speaker 4: mean the one, the one thing.

1471
01:20:47,000 --> 01:20:49,599
Speaker 1: About like a writing fellowship in his name. Now, who

1472
01:20:49,600 --> 01:20:50,120
Speaker 1: the hell was that?

1473
01:20:50,160 --> 01:20:50,960
Speaker 4: He was a good writer?

1474
01:20:51,080 --> 01:20:55,280
Speaker 1: Man, try to find I'm Shepherd, hyperthermia writer, you know,

1475
01:20:55,400 --> 01:20:57,320
Speaker 1: something like that. But I mean the one.

1476
01:20:57,439 --> 01:20:59,519
Speaker 4: The one thing about it is that by the time

1477
01:20:59,560 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 4: all this nasty stuff happens to your oregons, you're you're unconscious. Yeah,

1478
01:21:03,960 --> 01:21:06,040
Speaker 4: you don't know anything, and so you see it. I

1479
01:21:06,080 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 4: mean that these unfortunate situations of people dying of pete

1480
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:14,160
Speaker 4: stroke and athletic fields and whatnot. Yeah, they you know,

1481
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:15,439
Speaker 4: they're out of it.

1482
01:21:15,960 --> 01:21:18,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, all right, what's your next book?

1483
01:21:19,920 --> 01:21:20,639
Speaker 4: My next book? Well?

1484
01:21:20,640 --> 01:21:22,680
Speaker 1: See, I no, not not what you're doing now? Oh

1485
01:21:22,720 --> 01:21:26,000
Speaker 1: tell me. After we're doing this speed, we're doing the

1486
01:21:26,040 --> 01:21:27,280
Speaker 1: speed data. Yeah, because then you did.

1487
01:21:27,800 --> 01:21:29,559
Speaker 4: I did a story. Well, I did one called Last

1488
01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,800
Speaker 4: Empty Places. Oh, I went down the African River. That

1489
01:21:32,960 --> 01:21:36,400
Speaker 4: was a crazy book where that's where I came the

1490
01:21:36,400 --> 01:21:38,640
Speaker 4: second close to dying from a black mamba, from a

1491
01:21:38,680 --> 01:21:44,040
Speaker 4: black mamba. After your trip, after the trip, I thought

1492
01:21:44,040 --> 01:21:45,559
Speaker 4: I was gonna die on the river. And once I

1493
01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:46,960
Speaker 4: got off the river, I was safe.

1494
01:21:47,720 --> 01:21:49,800
Speaker 1: But we were in and you guys got tangled up

1495
01:21:49,800 --> 01:21:53,639
Speaker 1: with a hippos. Oh yeah, it would be aggressive, yeah yeah, yeah. Oh.

1496
01:21:53,680 --> 01:21:55,559
Speaker 4: And the waterfall you need to just be buzzing around

1497
01:21:55,560 --> 01:21:57,120
Speaker 4: to ben you have no idea what's around it, and

1498
01:21:57,120 --> 01:21:59,320
Speaker 4: there're you know, vines hanging everywhere. It looks like an

1499
01:21:59,360 --> 01:22:02,280
Speaker 4: African movie in fast water, you know. And you're whipping

1500
01:22:02,280 --> 01:22:05,360
Speaker 4: around a bend and that all of a sudden, like

1501
01:22:06,560 --> 01:22:08,519
Speaker 4: a guide who was a've never been there, but he

1502
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:12,000
Speaker 4: was a good, really good whitewater kayaker stopped like in

1503
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:13,840
Speaker 4: this big boulder right in the middle of the river

1504
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:16,519
Speaker 4: and he said, stop here, stop here, And you're whipping

1505
01:22:16,520 --> 01:22:18,800
Speaker 4: around the bend, you know, you know, stop right at

1506
01:22:18,840 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 4: as kayaking you look over, Oh there's this big waterfall

1507
01:22:23,920 --> 01:22:25,000
Speaker 4: where you die instantly.

1508
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,200
Speaker 1: It's like in every cartoon. Yeah, it's every cartoon.

1509
01:22:28,640 --> 01:22:32,240
Speaker 6: There also quicksand and no no, yeah, well they're kind

1510
01:22:32,280 --> 01:22:32,679
Speaker 6: of vine.

1511
01:22:32,840 --> 01:22:35,439
Speaker 4: But like at night washing you guys, I don't know

1512
01:22:35,439 --> 01:22:37,000
Speaker 4: if any of you have been in Africa, but you'd

1513
01:22:37,920 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 4: like washing the dishes beside the river at night. You'd

1514
01:22:41,520 --> 01:22:44,880
Speaker 4: always have to have a second person with a headlamp scanning,

1515
01:22:44,960 --> 01:22:48,200
Speaker 4: so the crocks, you know, you'd see their red red

1516
01:22:48,240 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 4: eyes come in. And if you tipped over in the

1517
01:22:51,840 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 4: kayak in the rapids, which happened to I think all

1518
01:22:55,000 --> 01:22:58,240
Speaker 4: of us several times. Like when you're in the rapids,

1519
01:22:58,240 --> 01:23:01,200
Speaker 4: it's kind of like you're safe because the crocs don't

1520
01:23:01,280 --> 01:23:04,240
Speaker 4: like the rapids. They like the calm water below the rapids.

1521
01:23:04,479 --> 01:23:06,599
Speaker 4: So when you get washed out of the rapids, that's

1522
01:23:06,640 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 4: when you really have to get nervous. That's when I said,

1523
01:23:12,040 --> 01:23:14,840
Speaker 4: this is as far as I'm going in my adventuring life.

1524
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,120
Speaker 4: This is as far as I'm the end. Yeah, then

1525
01:23:17,320 --> 01:23:19,000
Speaker 4: that's why I said, I'm going to write about historical

1526
01:23:19,040 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 4: guys doing the crazy stuff instead. But we talks something

1527
01:23:23,080 --> 01:23:26,080
Speaker 4: the black mon Okay, So so we've been through, you know,

1528
01:23:26,120 --> 01:23:30,160
Speaker 4: fifteen days of this incredible you know, crazy stuff, and

1529
01:23:30,240 --> 01:23:32,040
Speaker 4: I would have quit walked out if I could, but

1530
01:23:32,280 --> 01:23:32,519
Speaker 4: you know.

1531
01:23:32,520 --> 01:23:34,320
Speaker 1: Then i'd surely was there a lot of fish night river?

1532
01:23:35,080 --> 01:23:38,360
Speaker 1: Now you're not a lot there fishing? No, No, I

1533
01:23:38,400 --> 01:23:40,559
Speaker 1: mean we were just trying to We're like we're sort

1534
01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:43,519
Speaker 1: of surviving. Yeah, And there was no there was no

1535
01:23:43,720 --> 01:23:45,640
Speaker 1: through the whole middle section, there were no people. I mean,

1536
01:23:45,640 --> 01:23:47,880
Speaker 1: there were no African villages. It was very remote and

1537
01:23:47,960 --> 01:23:50,519
Speaker 1: rugged and that.

1538
01:23:50,960 --> 01:23:53,400
Speaker 4: So after fifteen days of this craziness where I've just

1539
01:23:53,479 --> 01:23:56,160
Speaker 4: thought I'd die every day, we finally get off the

1540
01:23:56,280 --> 01:23:59,000
Speaker 4: river and we end up at this big, very remote,

1541
01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:03,520
Speaker 4: still huge game reserve called Nassa Reserve in northern Mozambique,

1542
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:08,519
Speaker 4: and we connect with a hunting camp there that has

1543
01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 4: a you know, like a hunting block on the border

1544
01:24:10,400 --> 01:24:13,000
Speaker 4: of this big reserve and so and they're kind of

1545
01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,280
Speaker 4: taking us around. It's really nice hunting camp. And they

1546
01:24:16,520 --> 01:24:18,960
Speaker 4: have a like a land rover, and you know it's

1547
01:24:18,960 --> 01:24:21,280
Speaker 4: the kind of land rover that you know that there's

1548
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 4: no windshield, there are no doors, there's sort of a

1549
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:27,479
Speaker 4: higher rack on the back where like the trackers will stand,

1550
01:24:28,200 --> 01:24:30,240
Speaker 4: and so the the you know, he's like the great

1551
01:24:30,240 --> 01:24:33,120
Speaker 4: white hunter Jamie is is going to take us out

1552
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:35,760
Speaker 4: to show us where he's going to do a leopard steakout.

1553
01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:39,599
Speaker 4: And he's got to go set up the leopard steakout

1554
01:24:39,680 --> 01:24:42,439
Speaker 4: during the day. And so the photographer and I get

1555
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:45,000
Speaker 4: into this land rover and a bunch of trackers on

1556
01:24:45,040 --> 01:24:48,000
Speaker 4: the back and we wind through this kind of open

1557
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:50,840
Speaker 4: forest and we get to the leopard steakout and he

1558
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:53,800
Speaker 4: does this thing, and then we're driving like an hour

1559
01:24:53,880 --> 01:24:57,920
Speaker 4: back to camp and I'm sitting in the left you know,

1560
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:00,720
Speaker 4: it's British drive, so I'm in the messenger seat on

1561
01:25:00,760 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 4: the left side and there's no door, and Jamie has

1562
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,400
Speaker 4: his you know, his fifty caliber What are they? You know,

1563
01:25:08,479 --> 01:25:11,160
Speaker 4: what's the fifty caliber elephant gun that that you know,

1564
01:25:11,200 --> 01:25:14,920
Speaker 4: that the huge big appa. Yeah, it's it's maybe it's

1565
01:25:14,920 --> 01:25:17,240
Speaker 4: the five, maybe it's a five hundred, it's a you know,

1566
01:25:17,280 --> 01:25:21,120
Speaker 4: it's just the cannon that they use in Africa. So

1567
01:25:21,160 --> 01:25:23,920
Speaker 4: he has that mounted on his dashboard. And we had

1568
01:25:23,920 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 4: no guns at all, not going down this river. So

1569
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:28,599
Speaker 4: it's like, wow, we even have guns to protect this now,

1570
01:25:28,640 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 4: not to mention it cheap and cars and you know,

1571
01:25:31,680 --> 01:25:35,800
Speaker 4: I mean iron all this stuff, and we're driving back

1572
01:25:35,840 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 4: to camp, and we go into this open clearing with

1573
01:25:40,439 --> 01:25:43,240
Speaker 4: the sun coming down through the forest, and and I

1574
01:25:43,320 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 4: remembered going through this clearing earlier because it looked kind

1575
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:49,080
Speaker 4: of pretty. And then I noticed, like, wow, there's a

1576
01:25:49,120 --> 01:25:51,439
Speaker 4: big there's a big stick poking up in the middle

1577
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:54,360
Speaker 4: of that clearing. I wonder how that happened because there's

1578
01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:56,320
Speaker 4: no wind. It couldn't have fallen out of a tree.

1579
01:25:57,000 --> 01:26:01,920
Speaker 4: And so Jamie is driving completely oblivious. And and and

1580
01:26:01,960 --> 01:26:05,200
Speaker 4: I'm looking at this thing, and he's going right towards it,

1581
01:26:05,280 --> 01:26:07,760
Speaker 4: or there's like two little tracks right next to it,

1582
01:26:08,160 --> 01:26:09,680
Speaker 4: and I'm looking at it. And then I noticed that

1583
01:26:09,760 --> 01:26:13,160
Speaker 4: big head, that big stick is waving back and forth

1584
01:26:13,640 --> 01:26:19,200
Speaker 4: at like my head level high that high, that high, unbelievable.

1585
01:26:19,520 --> 01:26:23,280
Speaker 4: And and so and he doesn't, I mean, he is

1586
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,840
Speaker 4: completely oblivious. This is all happens in just a few

1587
01:26:25,840 --> 01:26:29,360
Speaker 4: seconds at most, and I just say, oh shit. And

1588
01:26:29,400 --> 01:26:32,759
Speaker 4: I had nowhere to hide. I just I dove underneath

1589
01:26:32,760 --> 01:26:36,160
Speaker 4: the dashboard, I mean like really hard, slammed into all

1590
01:26:36,200 --> 01:26:38,639
Speaker 4: the metal down there. And then you hear this big

1591
01:26:38,720 --> 01:26:42,360
Speaker 4: kind of clump on the on the land rover, and

1592
01:26:42,520 --> 01:26:45,040
Speaker 4: all the trackers go struck the land rover. They all

1593
01:26:45,080 --> 01:26:48,240
Speaker 4: say mamma, So he stops the land rover. All the

1594
01:26:48,280 --> 01:26:50,840
Speaker 4: trackers jump out, and the first they kind of go

1595
01:26:51,280 --> 01:26:53,200
Speaker 4: trying to chase the black momba. I don't know what

1596
01:26:53,200 --> 01:26:54,840
Speaker 4: they were going to do with that, but then they

1597
01:26:54,960 --> 01:26:58,479
Speaker 4: go running around the land rover and right in front

1598
01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:01,040
Speaker 4: of my where my leg was, they're the two scratches

1599
01:27:01,160 --> 01:27:05,920
Speaker 4: down in front of my leg and you know down

1600
01:27:06,000 --> 01:27:13,120
Speaker 4: it's like you know that land and they these guys,

1601
01:27:13,160 --> 01:27:16,200
Speaker 4: you know, these real serious, these are serious African professional

1602
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:19,479
Speaker 4: hunters are from ones from Zimbabwe or Rhodesian and with

1603
01:27:19,680 --> 01:27:21,920
Speaker 4: the other was from South Africa, so they you know,

1604
01:27:21,960 --> 01:27:24,559
Speaker 4: this is their life. And they said, yeah that the

1605
01:27:24,600 --> 01:27:29,000
Speaker 4: black Bambas are extremely aggressive. They'll protect their territory against anything,

1606
01:27:29,360 --> 01:27:32,240
Speaker 4: and so it's it's it's not unusual if they'd strike

1607
01:27:32,320 --> 01:27:33,919
Speaker 4: at at.

1608
01:27:34,360 --> 01:27:35,920
Speaker 1: Is that the one they say, like, if you get

1609
01:27:35,920 --> 01:27:37,479
Speaker 1: bit by it, just go leaning against the tree.

1610
01:27:37,640 --> 01:27:40,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's the one.

1611
01:27:40,520 --> 01:27:43,479
Speaker 1: And then do.

1612
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:47,360
Speaker 4: The British uh, you know, they have that British sense

1613
01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 4: of humor. You know, he's kind of that dry, understated

1614
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:55,639
Speaker 4: sense of humor. So so Jamie says, you know, after

1615
01:27:55,680 --> 01:27:58,080
Speaker 4: all this commotion, we get back and you know, I'm like,

1616
01:27:59,320 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 4: can I stand.

1617
01:27:59,920 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 1: Up on the very top of the stream at least.

1618
01:28:03,600 --> 01:28:07,439
Speaker 4: And rather than sitting an open front door And he says, yeah, yes,

1619
01:28:07,560 --> 01:28:08,799
Speaker 4: you know in his British accent.

1620
01:28:10,439 --> 01:28:12,880
Speaker 1: Yes, it was a black mamba bite.

1621
01:28:12,960 --> 01:28:17,120
Speaker 4: You know, your time to live is twenty minutes. And

1622
01:28:17,160 --> 01:28:21,599
Speaker 4: we do have some black mamba, you know, antidote at

1623
01:28:21,600 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 4: our camp, but that's forty five minutes away. That's where.

1624
01:28:32,360 --> 01:28:34,160
Speaker 1: How'd you get interested in the historians?

1625
01:28:35,760 --> 01:28:39,559
Speaker 4: Oh, that's well. I wrote a book called The Last

1626
01:28:39,560 --> 01:28:44,679
Speaker 4: Empty Places, and I profiled like four really unpopulated areas

1627
01:28:44,720 --> 01:28:46,880
Speaker 4: of the country. And the way I did it is

1628
01:28:46,920 --> 01:28:51,880
Speaker 4: I asked, like a geospace geologist or a geographer, how

1629
01:28:51,880 --> 01:28:54,880
Speaker 4: do I find these real unpopulated areas? And he said, well,

1630
01:28:55,120 --> 01:29:00,240
Speaker 4: go get the like the NASA landsat seven photo light

1631
01:29:00,280 --> 01:29:03,559
Speaker 4: photo of the of the US at night, and you

1632
01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:05,720
Speaker 4: look where the lights are and then you go where

1633
01:29:05,720 --> 01:29:08,880
Speaker 4: they're not. And so that's what I did.

1634
01:29:11,360 --> 01:29:12,280
Speaker 1: I would never thought of that.

1635
01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,479
Speaker 4: Advice been hours and I was really fun to study that,

1636
01:29:16,600 --> 01:29:17,240
Speaker 4: and I ended.

1637
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:19,360
Speaker 1: Up looking for the biggest holes I was looking for that.

1638
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:22,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I called it my blank spots, but it's called

1639
01:29:22,720 --> 01:29:24,800
Speaker 4: The Last Empty Places. I wanted to call it the

1640
01:29:24,840 --> 01:29:27,840
Speaker 4: Blank Spots, but and I ended up choosing two in

1641
01:29:27,880 --> 01:29:29,360
Speaker 4: the east and two in the west, and one of

1642
01:29:29,400 --> 01:29:33,559
Speaker 4: the west ones was southwestern Oregon, where I'm sure some

1643
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:36,960
Speaker 4: of you all here have been, which is really really empty,

1644
01:29:37,840 --> 01:29:42,719
Speaker 4: so unpopulated and so huge. And I was driving out there.

1645
01:29:43,280 --> 01:29:46,320
Speaker 4: I think I had our old, my falling apart land

1646
01:29:46,400 --> 01:29:47,920
Speaker 4: Cruiser at that point.

1647
01:29:47,760 --> 01:29:49,439
Speaker 1: And I remember that, do you remember that?

1648
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:52,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, you were around on those days and

1649
01:29:52,880 --> 01:29:55,719
Speaker 4: it was still alive then, but you know, not getting

1650
01:29:55,760 --> 01:29:57,519
Speaker 4: a lot a lot of gas mileage. And I'm blasting

1651
01:29:57,560 --> 01:30:01,000
Speaker 4: through southeast Oregon and it's getting you know, I'm doing research,

1652
01:30:01,040 --> 01:30:03,920
Speaker 4: you know, I'm just checking it out. And it's like May,

1653
01:30:04,000 --> 01:30:06,719
Speaker 4: and it's getting dark, and I'm driving down this road

1654
01:30:06,840 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 4: and it's like really getting darker and darker, and it's

1655
01:30:10,160 --> 01:30:13,280
Speaker 4: like I haven't seen a town for hours, and it's

1656
01:30:13,320 --> 01:30:16,679
Speaker 4: like like where am I going to sleep? And I'm

1657
01:30:16,680 --> 01:30:18,680
Speaker 4: not even sure I might have had camping gear, but

1658
01:30:18,760 --> 01:30:20,679
Speaker 4: it's like I don't want to go sleep in the ditch.

1659
01:30:21,200 --> 01:30:23,360
Speaker 4: And then so then all of a sudden, I come

1660
01:30:23,360 --> 01:30:27,240
Speaker 4: to this town called john Day, John Day, Orgon, and

1661
01:30:27,280 --> 01:30:29,599
Speaker 4: so I find a motel spend the night at john Day,

1662
01:30:29,720 --> 01:30:31,760
Speaker 4: Orgon and then the next morning I say, John Day,

1663
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:35,519
Speaker 4: that's a weird name for a town, and I look up.

1664
01:30:35,800 --> 01:30:37,960
Speaker 4: I start doing research on John Day, you know, first

1665
01:30:37,960 --> 01:30:39,600
Speaker 4: on the Internet, and then I think there was a

1666
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:43,479
Speaker 4: little library there. And it turns out John Day is

1667
01:30:43,479 --> 01:30:47,080
Speaker 4: a member of this ast expedition. And he's this guy

1668
01:30:47,160 --> 01:30:51,439
Speaker 4: who's been going through everything you can imagine. You know,

1669
01:30:52,360 --> 01:30:57,240
Speaker 4: he's had malaria, he's been he's poisoned himself by uh,

1670
01:30:57,439 --> 01:31:02,280
Speaker 4: eating the death canvas rather than the cavas. He's been

1671
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:08,439
Speaker 4: almost he's been left another guy when the story Overland

1672
01:31:08,479 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 4: expedition got caught in the middle of Hell's Canyon in

1673
01:31:11,600 --> 01:31:14,639
Speaker 4: winter and they had no food, no way out, and

1674
01:31:14,760 --> 01:31:15,200
Speaker 4: so he.

1675
01:31:15,240 --> 01:31:16,559
Speaker 1: Got a river named after himself.

1676
01:31:16,680 --> 01:31:18,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, he did get a river name and a couple

1677
01:31:18,200 --> 01:31:18,519
Speaker 4: of dames.

1678
01:31:18,600 --> 01:31:20,120
Speaker 6: He sounds like he would have been a good character

1679
01:31:20,240 --> 01:31:22,559
Speaker 6: to profile in your book about Ten Ways to Die

1680
01:31:22,640 --> 01:31:23,559
Speaker 6: in the in the Wild.

1681
01:31:24,000 --> 01:31:25,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, he would have. He well, he was helping me

1682
01:31:27,439 --> 01:31:29,040
Speaker 4: that book, was helping me when I was writing about

1683
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:31,439
Speaker 4: John Day, and oh he went through all this stuff

1684
01:31:31,439 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 4: and then he you know, they left him behind and

1685
01:31:33,560 --> 01:31:36,880
Speaker 4: the expedition left him for dead. And he and he

1686
01:31:36,920 --> 01:31:39,800
Speaker 4: and another guy managed to crawl out and find some

1687
01:31:39,880 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 4: Shoshone who you know, gave him like some fox to

1688
01:31:42,960 --> 01:31:46,679
Speaker 4: eat or some wolf I think actually, and then uh,

1689
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:50,559
Speaker 4: they survive, and they poisoned themselves with the death camas

1690
01:31:50,560 --> 01:31:51,000
Speaker 4: and they.

1691
01:31:50,880 --> 01:31:52,679
Speaker 1: Crawled miss id purple cavas.

1692
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:57,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then they they eventually managed to crawl like

1693
01:31:58,080 --> 01:32:00,960
Speaker 4: over the Blue Mountains to the Columbia. And so they

1694
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:04,400
Speaker 4: get to the Columbia River, and they're thinking, oh, we're saved,

1695
01:32:04,439 --> 01:32:08,120
Speaker 4: you know, because all our guys are supposed to be

1696
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:10,439
Speaker 4: building this fort at the mouth of the Columbia, you know,

1697
01:32:10,479 --> 01:32:13,439
Speaker 4: but they're like a couple hundred miles upstream at this point,

1698
01:32:13,920 --> 01:32:16,040
Speaker 4: and so they're you know, but they think they're saved,

1699
01:32:16,040 --> 01:32:18,160
Speaker 4: and they're sitting on the river bank on this nice

1700
01:32:18,200 --> 01:32:21,040
Speaker 4: sunny day, having survived all this stuff. And then suddenly

1701
01:32:21,080 --> 01:32:25,720
Speaker 4: they find themselves surrounded by Indians. And I can't can't

1702
01:32:25,760 --> 01:32:28,479
Speaker 4: remember which tribe. There's several tribes right in that area.

1703
01:32:29,080 --> 01:32:32,360
Speaker 4: And so the you know, and the Indians are really

1704
01:32:32,479 --> 01:32:34,240
Speaker 4: kind of friendly at first and want to talk to

1705
01:32:34,280 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 4: them and whatnot. And then they have, you know, they

1706
01:32:38,360 --> 01:32:40,640
Speaker 4: have muskets and the Indians don't. And then you know,

1707
01:32:40,680 --> 01:32:42,680
Speaker 4: like one of the Indians says, oh, I want to

1708
01:32:42,680 --> 01:32:45,639
Speaker 4: see how long that musket is, and you know, wants

1709
01:32:45,680 --> 01:32:49,600
Speaker 4: to measure it, and well, there goes that musket, and

1710
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:52,000
Speaker 4: then another guy says, hey, I want to see that knife.

1711
01:32:52,320 --> 01:32:55,040
Speaker 4: Well there goes that knife, and then another guy goes, oh,

1712
01:32:55,080 --> 01:32:58,160
Speaker 4: I want to see that shirt. And so they ended

1713
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:03,240
Speaker 4: up being completely stripped, utterly naked and told to go

1714
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,400
Speaker 4: back the way they came and don't come back the.

1715
01:33:05,439 --> 01:33:05,960
Speaker 1: Way they came.

1716
01:33:06,040 --> 01:33:07,599
Speaker 4: Yeah they came.

1717
01:33:08,080 --> 01:33:12,479
Speaker 1: He's like, well I was for thinking, and then it'll

1718
01:33:12,520 --> 01:33:14,160
Speaker 1: be you on your portage strip this year.

1719
01:33:16,479 --> 01:33:18,760
Speaker 4: And then when they finally get to his storia, this

1720
01:33:18,920 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 4: John Day, there's an expedition that immediately turns around and

1721
01:33:22,320 --> 01:33:26,240
Speaker 4: goes back overland to bring mister Astor letters in this

1722
01:33:26,479 --> 01:33:28,920
Speaker 4: tin box about you know, we made it to there,

1723
01:33:28,960 --> 01:33:32,280
Speaker 4: blah blah blah, and and this John Day he's like, Okay,

1724
01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:33,680
Speaker 4: I'm done with this. I want to go I want

1725
01:33:33,680 --> 01:33:35,559
Speaker 4: to go back. He's just like a really good Virginia

1726
01:33:35,640 --> 01:33:37,840
Speaker 4: hunter and his good guy he's like forty. It's a

1727
01:33:37,920 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 4: lanky guy, really good humored. And so they start going

1728
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:44,680
Speaker 4: back up the Columbia in these you know, these big canoes,

1729
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:48,840
Speaker 4: and then they're going to start trekking overland and they

1730
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:51,439
Speaker 4: get to a place where they run into the first

1731
01:33:51,439 --> 01:33:55,400
Speaker 4: tribe on the Columbia Friendly Tribe. But John Days starts

1732
01:33:55,640 --> 01:34:00,599
Speaker 4: freaking out and he's he goes completely crazy. He clearly

1733
01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:03,920
Speaker 4: has PTSD and then he tries to kill himself two

1734
01:34:03,960 --> 01:34:05,559
Speaker 4: pistols to his head in the middle of the night,

1735
01:34:06,400 --> 01:34:07,680
Speaker 4: and he survives.

1736
01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,800
Speaker 5: But he wasn't good at everything, no, I guess.

1737
01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:16,560
Speaker 4: But anyway, that was John Day, and so he was

1738
01:34:16,560 --> 01:34:19,479
Speaker 4: the who got interested in me, interested into the historian history.

1739
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:19,880
Speaker 5: He was.

1740
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:22,280
Speaker 4: He might not have been trying so hard, who knows.

1741
01:34:22,320 --> 01:34:25,879
Speaker 6: That's another check mark on the list of things he survived.

1742
01:34:26,080 --> 01:34:27,559
Speaker 4: Yeah, he saw a.

1743
01:34:27,520 --> 01:34:30,080
Speaker 1: Picture in the movie and he's like in the movie,

1744
01:34:30,439 --> 01:34:37,479
Speaker 1: when I got two pistols, that's gonna do badass. So

1745
01:34:38,280 --> 01:34:40,559
Speaker 1: I got into the extra deranged.

1746
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 4: And then this, you know, it ends up being this

1747
01:34:51,400 --> 01:34:53,080
Speaker 4: as I just got into it because I ran into

1748
01:34:53,080 --> 01:34:54,960
Speaker 4: this little town of John Day, and then the character

1749
01:34:55,040 --> 01:34:57,560
Speaker 4: John Day, and then the expedition itself, and it was

1750
01:34:57,600 --> 01:34:59,920
Speaker 4: just I learned it. It's kind of like this mass

1751
01:35:00,040 --> 01:35:02,680
Speaker 4: of expedition that I'd never heard of. And it had

1752
01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:07,120
Speaker 4: come five years after Lewis and Clark to sent by

1753
01:35:07,160 --> 01:35:09,639
Speaker 4: this huge fur baron in New York for in real

1754
01:35:09,760 --> 01:35:13,160
Speaker 4: estate baron, John Jacob Astor, and he had this global

1755
01:35:13,280 --> 01:35:18,479
Speaker 4: trade scheme where he was sending one big party by

1756
01:35:18,520 --> 01:35:22,040
Speaker 4: ships around Cape Horn, established a trade center at the

1757
01:35:22,080 --> 01:35:26,400
Speaker 4: mouth of the Columbia. Another big party going overland to

1758
01:35:26,600 --> 01:35:30,200
Speaker 4: establish a series of posts going over the Rocky Mountains

1759
01:35:30,600 --> 01:35:35,440
Speaker 4: and meeting the seaguing party at the mouth of the Columbia,

1760
01:35:35,520 --> 01:35:39,760
Speaker 4: but all based around the Beaver market, right sea otter,

1761
01:35:41,360 --> 01:35:45,160
Speaker 4: So yeah, and at that point that the Northwest coast

1762
01:35:45,439 --> 01:35:48,760
Speaker 4: was there were a lot of sea otter And it

1763
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:51,559
Speaker 4: was Captain Cook's guys who discovered you could get a

1764
01:35:51,600 --> 01:35:55,479
Speaker 4: sea otter on Vancouver Island a pelt for like a

1765
01:35:55,560 --> 01:35:58,040
Speaker 4: dollar worth of trinkets and sell it for one hundred

1766
01:35:58,080 --> 01:35:59,840
Speaker 4: bucks in China.

1767
01:36:00,120 --> 01:36:01,400
Speaker 1: Size was just sitting where you're sitting.

1768
01:36:01,600 --> 01:36:05,040
Speaker 4: Is that right? About the Captain cook book, Okay.

1769
01:36:04,160 --> 01:36:07,200
Speaker 1: Which I read, which is phenomenal, And he talks about

1770
01:36:07,200 --> 01:36:09,640
Speaker 1: when some of those dudes that so when some of

1771
01:36:09,640 --> 01:36:12,320
Speaker 1: those guys had who picked up a bunch of seatter

1772
01:36:12,400 --> 01:36:15,120
Speaker 1: pelts in Alaska, they wound up like over in Siberia

1773
01:36:15,120 --> 01:36:17,400
Speaker 1: at one point. Yeah, yeah, and they were able to

1774
01:36:17,439 --> 01:36:20,360
Speaker 1: sell some of those. And I can't remember what expedition

1775
01:36:20,439 --> 01:36:21,840
Speaker 1: he was talking about it, but what he mentioned there

1776
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:25,799
Speaker 1: was guys that almost it was so lucrative, they hatched

1777
01:36:25,840 --> 01:36:28,000
Speaker 1: to plan, not cooks guys, but these guys on his

1778
01:36:28,080 --> 01:36:33,559
Speaker 1: other boat hatched a plan to mutiny because they wanted

1779
01:36:33,600 --> 01:36:35,200
Speaker 1: to go back and get a bunch more of those things.

1780
01:36:35,600 --> 01:36:36,960
Speaker 1: It was like that, It was.

1781
01:36:36,880 --> 01:36:41,560
Speaker 4: Like that was that incredibly, incredibly valuable. So that was

1782
01:36:41,640 --> 01:36:44,679
Speaker 4: Astro's scheme was I mean, it was like this brilliant

1783
01:36:44,880 --> 01:36:48,720
Speaker 4: global trade scheme. It was really visionary, and that the

1784
01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,040
Speaker 4: idea was to have a fleet of ships. So it's

1785
01:36:52,080 --> 01:36:56,000
Speaker 4: literally continuously circling the world. And you know, Shay that

1786
01:36:56,280 --> 01:36:59,360
Speaker 4: he was based in New York and Manhattan, and they

1787
01:37:00,280 --> 01:37:02,280
Speaker 4: New York and they'd have trade goods on them, you know,

1788
01:37:02,720 --> 01:37:06,559
Speaker 4: trade goods for the tribes like pots and knives and beads,

1789
01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 4: trade beads, and they'd go around South America, around Cape Horn.

1790
01:37:10,680 --> 01:37:12,880
Speaker 4: They'd end up at the mouth of the Columbia at

1791
01:37:12,920 --> 01:37:17,160
Speaker 4: the emporium, the trade emporium that he was building, and

1792
01:37:17,439 --> 01:37:21,120
Speaker 4: there they would trade their trade goods to the tribes,

1793
01:37:21,160 --> 01:37:22,599
Speaker 4: and there are a lot of tribes in the Northwest

1794
01:37:22,640 --> 01:37:26,320
Speaker 4: coast for seaatter firs, and then the ships with the

1795
01:37:26,320 --> 01:37:30,120
Speaker 4: seattle firs would then go to Canton in China and

1796
01:37:30,160 --> 01:37:34,280
Speaker 4: they'd sell those seattle firs or trade them for huge markups,

1797
01:37:34,840 --> 01:37:38,960
Speaker 4: and they'd take on silk and tea and porcelain, which

1798
01:37:39,000 --> 01:37:43,920
Speaker 4: are really valuable trade goods in the Western world. And

1799
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:46,680
Speaker 4: then they'd sail around the rest of the globe, you know,

1800
01:37:47,200 --> 01:37:50,639
Speaker 4: around Africa, and they'd end up in London, and they'd

1801
01:37:50,680 --> 01:37:54,120
Speaker 4: sell the silk and porcelain and tea in London and

1802
01:37:54,520 --> 01:37:58,360
Speaker 4: also in New York and make these huge profits at

1803
01:37:58,360 --> 01:38:02,320
Speaker 4: every stop and have this fleet of ships continuously circling

1804
01:38:02,320 --> 01:38:02,879
Speaker 4: the globe.

1805
01:38:03,080 --> 01:38:03,240
Speaker 9: Man.

1806
01:38:03,320 --> 01:38:06,559
Speaker 1: That reminds me of me recently leveraging a couple DSD

1807
01:38:06,680 --> 01:38:08,640
Speaker 1: Turkey decoys into two big ribbies.

1808
01:38:12,640 --> 01:38:21,800
Speaker 10: That sounds pretty global like, but it mostly didn't work right.

1809
01:38:22,439 --> 01:38:24,200
Speaker 10: Well it it would.

1810
01:38:23,960 --> 01:38:26,160
Speaker 4: Have worked, I mean, there were there were various factors,

1811
01:38:26,240 --> 01:38:29,760
Speaker 4: and and one is this is you know, I wrote

1812
01:38:29,760 --> 01:38:31,559
Speaker 4: in some of these notes that it would be really

1813
01:38:31,720 --> 01:38:34,519
Speaker 4: what we don't have time to do, uh at least now,

1814
01:38:34,920 --> 01:38:37,760
Speaker 4: is talk about the birch bark canoe and what incredible

1815
01:38:37,800 --> 01:38:41,960
Speaker 4: craft that was, uh huh. And that the the Brits

1816
01:38:41,960 --> 01:38:45,760
Speaker 4: in Canada had birch bark canoes and they had the

1817
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:48,880
Speaker 4: whole voyager trade route that could go all the way

1818
01:38:48,880 --> 01:38:51,360
Speaker 4: out to the West coast by this time really fast,

1819
01:38:52,000 --> 01:38:55,720
Speaker 4: whereas the the Americans had, you know, it took them

1820
01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:59,639
Speaker 4: months and months and months. You know, they're dragging barges

1821
01:38:59,720 --> 01:39:05,160
Speaker 4: up the Missouri River and you know, walking and really slow.

1822
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:09,920
Speaker 4: So the War of eighteen twelve broke up in June

1823
01:39:09,920 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 4: of eighteen twelve, and so that's announced that Congress US Congress,

1824
01:39:16,280 --> 01:39:22,080
Speaker 4: President Madison declares war on Britain because the Brits are

1825
01:39:22,160 --> 01:39:26,000
Speaker 4: screwing with American commercial ships in the Atlantic and dragooning

1826
01:39:26,080 --> 01:39:30,760
Speaker 4: sailors off to go join the British army and fight Napoleon.

1827
01:39:31,240 --> 01:39:34,479
Speaker 4: So there's all this hurrah about the US is really

1828
01:39:34,560 --> 01:39:38,400
Speaker 4: pissed at Britain. So President Madison declares war. It's like

1829
01:39:38,680 --> 01:39:44,559
Speaker 4: mid June of eighteen twelve, and the word of that,

1830
01:39:45,000 --> 01:39:47,400
Speaker 4: the news of that war, you know, like in an

1831
01:39:47,800 --> 01:39:55,160
Speaker 4: actual formal declaration of war, immediately is launched through Montreal,

1832
01:39:55,479 --> 01:39:59,599
Speaker 4: out the Great Lakes, through Grand Portage, through all the

1833
01:39:59,720 --> 01:40:03,559
Speaker 4: Lake of like you know that Manitoba, that whole area.

1834
01:40:04,200 --> 01:40:08,840
Speaker 5: Meanwhile, John Day is going, oh, ship, we can't go down.

1835
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:11,680
Speaker 5: You have to turn around, walk all the way up

1836
01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:12,640
Speaker 5: this valley.

1837
01:40:12,320 --> 01:40:14,320
Speaker 1: Way right right.

1838
01:40:14,640 --> 01:40:18,599
Speaker 4: And so by this time that the Astorians had established

1839
01:40:18,640 --> 01:40:21,320
Speaker 4: a bunch of fur posts all in the Columbia basin,

1840
01:40:21,479 --> 01:40:25,280
Speaker 4: and so they had this enterprise up and running, and

1841
01:40:25,479 --> 01:40:31,000
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden one day these Scottish fur traders,

1842
01:40:31,000 --> 01:40:34,160
Speaker 4: that's that. Those are like the British Hanchos. Scottish fur

1843
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:40,240
Speaker 4: traders show up at the northernmost aster post and walk

1844
01:40:40,280 --> 01:40:42,759
Speaker 4: in the front door of the cabin and say, hey, guys,

1845
01:40:44,520 --> 01:40:46,800
Speaker 4: we're at war with each other, and that means we're

1846
01:40:46,840 --> 01:40:51,919
Speaker 4: taking your fur posts, which is what happens.

1847
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:55,719
Speaker 1: Wow, man, the other thing.

1848
01:40:55,720 --> 01:40:57,720
Speaker 5: Like that had to have been like all a lot

1849
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 5: of reasons for PTSD. Yeah, I bring up turn around

1850
01:41:00,400 --> 01:41:02,920
Speaker 5: on the snake, because that would be the thing in

1851
01:41:02,960 --> 01:41:06,000
Speaker 5: that whole deal that would give me PTSD wait being

1852
01:41:06,040 --> 01:41:11,800
Speaker 5: wrong and not having to turn around. But the Russians

1853
01:41:11,840 --> 01:41:17,240
Speaker 5: were so established, yes, like way established, way established with

1854
01:41:17,560 --> 01:41:20,679
Speaker 5: every like to the point of when you got out

1855
01:41:20,720 --> 01:41:23,280
Speaker 5: there after making that trip and be like, okay, we're

1856
01:41:23,280 --> 01:41:29,840
Speaker 5: going to establish this thing, this monumental scheme for transcontinental trade.

1857
01:41:30,040 --> 01:41:33,360
Speaker 5: Like you're like, oh, there's a literal world power that's

1858
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:35,120
Speaker 5: been here for decades.

1859
01:41:35,920 --> 01:41:36,720
Speaker 1: Well they haven't been.

1860
01:41:37,240 --> 01:41:42,200
Speaker 4: That's that's that's it's close. It's close. I mean, that's

1861
01:41:42,360 --> 01:41:46,160
Speaker 4: that's There are several world powers like circling around this

1862
01:41:46,200 --> 01:41:49,400
Speaker 4: whole West coast in the Pacific because it's it's kind

1863
01:41:49,439 --> 01:41:53,040
Speaker 4: of unclaimed territory. And the Russians had come over. They

1864
01:41:53,080 --> 01:41:55,920
Speaker 4: didn't establish their fur trade in Alaska until the late

1865
01:41:55,960 --> 01:41:59,280
Speaker 4: seventeen hundreds, and so this is what we're talking here

1866
01:41:59,360 --> 01:42:03,240
Speaker 4: is eighteen eleven and the but the Russians did have

1867
01:42:03,479 --> 01:42:10,480
Speaker 4: a major post just just it's just what's the southernmost

1868
01:42:10,520 --> 01:42:12,840
Speaker 4: part of like catches a ketch a can is at

1869
01:42:12,880 --> 01:42:17,160
Speaker 4: the you know, the southeast that's the end of Yeah, okay,

1870
01:42:17,240 --> 01:42:20,160
Speaker 4: so that that's I'm pretty sure that's where they had.

1871
01:42:20,200 --> 01:42:22,680
Speaker 4: It was like a you know, stone castle, and he

1872
01:42:22,760 --> 01:42:24,680
Speaker 4: had you know, he was like living there like a

1873
01:42:24,720 --> 01:42:27,760
Speaker 4: baron this this guy a count Baronoff and so he's

1874
01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:31,320
Speaker 4: just really decadent, you know, Russian count and it has

1875
01:42:31,400 --> 01:42:34,200
Speaker 4: all these you know, all these Indians working for him

1876
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:39,320
Speaker 4: and I don't know, slave women and he has military

1877
01:42:39,439 --> 01:42:40,800
Speaker 4: Russian military.

1878
01:42:43,280 --> 01:42:46,639
Speaker 1: Abc islands like Chilikov.

1879
01:42:48,680 --> 01:42:51,400
Speaker 4: Up that way. Yeah, so it's Count Baranov and and

1880
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:53,680
Speaker 4: he's and he's like, it's an incredible drinker, you know.

1881
01:42:54,160 --> 01:42:58,280
Speaker 4: And and he has all these military guys with him too,

1882
01:42:58,280 --> 01:43:00,240
Speaker 4: and he has this big fur trade working with I

1883
01:43:00,240 --> 01:43:02,720
Speaker 4: think there are they Eliut.

1884
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:06,240
Speaker 1: Maybe they're telling it there.

1885
01:43:06,439 --> 01:43:08,439
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think, well, I think he has several tribes

1886
01:43:08,479 --> 01:43:14,320
Speaker 4: working for him. Yeah, and but here's his big fur post.

1887
01:43:14,360 --> 01:43:18,360
Speaker 4: And so at one point, my guy, the guy who

1888
01:43:18,439 --> 01:43:22,519
Speaker 4: leads the story overland expedition, mister Hunt, who's this real

1889
01:43:22,600 --> 01:43:25,200
Speaker 4: mild mannered guy. He's from New Jersey. He'd never been

1890
01:43:25,280 --> 01:43:28,479
Speaker 4: in the wilderness before. He led the party across the

1891
01:43:28,520 --> 01:43:31,840
Speaker 4: country that got this the continent that got everybody in

1892
01:43:31,880 --> 01:43:34,120
Speaker 4: trouble because he didn't know what he was doing. But

1893
01:43:34,240 --> 01:43:40,000
Speaker 4: he ends up taking a ship and I think it

1894
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:42,519
Speaker 4: has a bunch of seatter pelts on it, and then

1895
01:43:42,560 --> 01:43:46,160
Speaker 4: he's going up to visit Count Baranoff up and at

1896
01:43:46,200 --> 01:43:49,880
Speaker 4: Baranoff Island, and he's going to buy like twenty five

1897
01:43:49,960 --> 01:43:54,240
Speaker 4: thousand beaver pelt from Count Baranoff and then he's going

1898
01:43:54,280 --> 01:43:57,920
Speaker 4: to take those over to like Russia, Siberia or China.

1899
01:43:58,000 --> 01:44:00,719
Speaker 4: And he's got this thing all worked out, as already

1900
01:44:00,800 --> 01:44:03,880
Speaker 4: sent his son in law daughter to work out the

1901
01:44:04,000 --> 01:44:08,479
Speaker 4: diplomacy with a queen, you know, with the Czarina of Russia.

1902
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:12,000
Speaker 4: So they've got all this stuff worked out. So mister

1903
01:44:12,080 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 4: Hunt sails his boat with his seattle pelts from the

1904
01:44:15,920 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 4: Astor's post up to Count Baranov's post, and he's going

1905
01:44:20,240 --> 01:44:22,880
Speaker 4: to buy these twenty five thousand beaver pelts and it's

1906
01:44:22,880 --> 01:44:25,160
Speaker 4: going to make a fortune for mister Astor. But so

1907
01:44:25,240 --> 01:44:27,559
Speaker 4: Count Baranov is like, huh oh, yeah, hey, why don't

1908
01:44:27,560 --> 01:44:30,719
Speaker 4: you stay a while, dude, We got some parties coming up,

1909
01:44:31,120 --> 01:44:34,720
Speaker 4: and I want to show you my military parade, and well,

1910
01:44:34,800 --> 01:44:38,000
Speaker 4: let's have another drinking contest. And so it goes on

1911
01:44:38,200 --> 01:44:41,080
Speaker 4: like that for three weeks that he can't get out,

1912
01:44:41,479 --> 01:44:44,160
Speaker 4: and he keeps saying, well, what about my beaver pelts.

1913
01:44:44,200 --> 01:44:45,760
Speaker 1: Oh, we'll get to that, We'll get to that.

1914
01:44:46,320 --> 01:44:49,960
Speaker 4: And so by the time by the time that the

1915
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:52,800
Speaker 4: party's over, it's it's too late in the season to

1916
01:44:52,840 --> 01:44:55,400
Speaker 4: go across to get the beaver pelts and go across

1917
01:44:55,439 --> 01:44:59,599
Speaker 4: to China. And so it's like mister Hunt is screwed

1918
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:04,559
Speaker 4: and Count Baronoff keeps his beaver pelts, and so it's

1919
01:45:04,600 --> 01:45:07,439
Speaker 4: a it's a it's a it's a Russian ploy basically

1920
01:45:07,960 --> 01:45:09,880
Speaker 4: to keep to keep Astor out of the audit.

1921
01:45:10,400 --> 01:45:12,920
Speaker 5: It's like that Blues Brother scene. You know, it's like, yeah,

1922
01:45:12,960 --> 01:45:16,760
Speaker 5: you guys get fifty bucks for the concert, but you

1923
01:45:17,240 --> 01:45:18,840
Speaker 5: drank seventy five bucks worth of beer.

1924
01:45:20,400 --> 01:45:20,639
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1925
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:24,800
Speaker 1: When was when the Good Old Boys, the band called

1926
01:45:25,240 --> 01:45:29,280
Speaker 1: Boys was late for their show. That's great reference. That

1927
01:45:29,320 --> 01:45:34,519
Speaker 1: puts the perspective for people. Uh that when that was

1928
01:45:34,560 --> 01:45:35,960
Speaker 1: called the historians.

1929
01:45:35,760 --> 01:45:37,479
Speaker 4: It was called a story.

1930
01:45:37,640 --> 01:45:38,760
Speaker 1: Uh.

1931
01:45:38,800 --> 01:45:41,679
Speaker 4: And then the subtitle is John Jacob Astor and Thomas

1932
01:45:41,760 --> 01:45:44,200
Speaker 4: Jefferson's Lost Pacific Empire.

1933
01:45:44,400 --> 01:45:44,599
Speaker 1: God.

1934
01:45:45,360 --> 01:45:47,439
Speaker 4: So that was a fun, crazy book to read, I

1935
01:45:47,439 --> 01:45:48,000
Speaker 4: mean to write.

1936
01:45:48,200 --> 01:45:50,000
Speaker 1: So hit me with getting into George Washington.

1937
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:54,240
Speaker 4: Well, so that came every book I've written in the

1938
01:45:54,320 --> 01:45:57,880
Speaker 4: last four or five books came from that last Empty

1939
01:45:57,880 --> 01:45:58,559
Speaker 4: Places book.

1940
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:00,880
Speaker 1: Okay, you know what I gotta I gotta tell you

1941
01:46:00,960 --> 01:46:03,280
Speaker 1: something I want to tell you earlier. You're talking about

1942
01:46:03,280 --> 01:46:05,840
Speaker 1: winding up at the John Day Hotel or winding up

1943
01:46:05,840 --> 01:46:08,439
Speaker 1: in hotel. I took my wife one time on a

1944
01:46:08,560 --> 01:46:12,640
Speaker 1: on a research trip. We went in Bismarck, North Dakota,

1945
01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:14,840
Speaker 1: and there was a If I remember right, man, I

1946
01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:17,519
Speaker 1: think it was like there's a big all the Seventh

1947
01:46:17,560 --> 01:46:20,320
Speaker 1: Day Adventist churches. We're having some kind of conference. If

1948
01:46:20,320 --> 01:46:22,280
Speaker 1: I remember that, that's what it was. I think I remember.

1949
01:46:22,439 --> 01:46:24,599
Speaker 1: Either way. Ever, you couldn't find anything and no place,

1950
01:46:24,840 --> 01:46:26,200
Speaker 1: no place to stay, and I didn't make any plan.

1951
01:46:28,040 --> 01:46:31,080
Speaker 1: And we find a motel. I'm not joking. I wish

1952
01:46:31,160 --> 01:46:33,960
Speaker 1: my wife could come down and tell the stories. Literally

1953
01:46:34,640 --> 01:46:40,479
Speaker 1: letters in the motel neon are burned out. We pull in,

1954
01:46:40,720 --> 01:46:43,719
Speaker 1: it's a dirt driveway. We pull in and a guy

1955
01:46:43,800 --> 01:46:49,439
Speaker 1: comes out and uh, the guy comes out to greet us,

1956
01:46:49,680 --> 01:46:51,920
Speaker 1: Like before we even get out of the car. He

1957
01:46:51,960 --> 01:46:53,880
Speaker 1: comes out to greet us, and I have I rolled

1958
01:46:53,880 --> 01:46:55,479
Speaker 1: on the windows and like, oh, who's this must be

1959
01:46:55,560 --> 01:46:57,640
Speaker 1: the proprietor. I rolled out on the window and he

1960
01:46:57,680 --> 01:46:59,920
Speaker 1: pokes his head and he goes, how many of you

1961
01:47:00,080 --> 01:47:05,920
Speaker 1: are in there? We get this room and there and

1962
01:47:05,960 --> 01:47:10,519
Speaker 1: there is no joke, a prophylactic on the floor of

1963
01:47:10,520 --> 01:47:13,000
Speaker 1: the room and cigarette.

1964
01:47:12,680 --> 01:47:13,719
Speaker 4: These aren't the Seventh Day.

1965
01:47:15,200 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 1: The only room the only place left. And my wife's

1966
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:23,320
Speaker 1: like in your future, wife and you would have me,

1967
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:31,360
Speaker 1: so from then on. Yeah, when you're on research trips,

1968
01:47:31,400 --> 01:47:35,160
Speaker 1: call ahead advice for future writers.

1969
01:47:36,800 --> 01:47:40,080
Speaker 4: We have your spousal Yeah, yeah, make arrangements ahead of time.

1970
01:47:40,160 --> 01:47:42,640
Speaker 5: That would have been so good though, to keep referencing

1971
01:47:42,680 --> 01:47:47,439
Speaker 5: that in the you know my past wife. Do you

1972
01:47:47,479 --> 01:47:48,960
Speaker 5: know what my past wife?

1973
01:47:49,120 --> 01:47:51,920
Speaker 4: So that's why there's you know, there's Empty the Blank

1974
01:47:51,960 --> 01:47:55,599
Speaker 4: Spots book, The Last Empty Places. One of the places

1975
01:47:55,640 --> 01:47:58,519
Speaker 4: I profiled was western Pennsylvania, which is I mean, it's

1976
01:47:59,000 --> 01:48:01,760
Speaker 4: it's amazingly dark on the on the on the yeah,

1977
01:48:01,800 --> 01:48:03,960
Speaker 4: amazingly dark. I mean, you know, and it's it's like

1978
01:48:04,000 --> 01:48:08,280
Speaker 4: the big the biggest darkest area in the east near

1979
01:48:08,320 --> 01:48:10,519
Speaker 4: an urban area that I that I could find and

1980
01:48:10,560 --> 01:48:13,280
Speaker 4: where were we at? And if he went if he

1981
01:48:13,320 --> 01:48:16,560
Speaker 4: went to Pittsburgh and went somewhat northeast of there, do

1982
01:48:16,640 --> 01:48:17,479
Speaker 4: you know that territory?

1983
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:19,920
Speaker 8: I grew up in Edinburgh, so not far from where

1984
01:48:19,920 --> 01:48:20,320
Speaker 8: you were from.

1985
01:48:20,439 --> 01:48:22,280
Speaker 4: Okay, So it's I mean, it's like it's all national

1986
01:48:22,320 --> 01:48:26,040
Speaker 4: forests and you know, it's and it's mountains and it's

1987
01:48:26,080 --> 01:48:29,519
Speaker 4: it's just it's not agricultural land. It was actually was

1988
01:48:29,960 --> 01:48:32,840
Speaker 4: given away as bounty lands after the Revolutionary War and

1989
01:48:32,880 --> 01:48:37,360
Speaker 4: the and the War of French and Indian War, and.

1990
01:48:36,520 --> 01:48:38,559
Speaker 1: There was no good nothing could out there.

1991
01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:41,200
Speaker 4: So the guys who soldiers who got this land set

1992
01:48:41,640 --> 01:48:43,760
Speaker 4: it's not worth anything, and so they kind of walked

1993
01:48:43,760 --> 01:48:46,840
Speaker 4: away from it. But so I was out on that

1994
01:48:46,920 --> 01:48:51,320
Speaker 4: blank spot doing research. I was like, uh, well that

1995
01:48:51,439 --> 01:48:54,479
Speaker 4: was two thousand and seven or something, and I ran

1996
01:48:54,520 --> 01:48:57,719
Speaker 4: into this like twenty two year old guy stumbling around

1997
01:48:57,760 --> 01:49:00,760
Speaker 4: on the woods out there, who is really screwing up,

1998
01:49:00,800 --> 01:49:03,080
Speaker 4: but he's this real Turk. And his name was the

1999
01:49:03,120 --> 01:49:07,920
Speaker 4: young George Washington, and that's where he'd kind of cut

2000
01:49:07,960 --> 01:49:10,479
Speaker 4: his teeth in the wilderness. And so I said, Wow,

2001
01:49:10,479 --> 01:49:13,120
Speaker 4: this guy's a really interesting character, and so then I

2002
01:49:13,160 --> 01:49:14,559
Speaker 4: decided to write a book about him.

2003
01:49:15,000 --> 01:49:19,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that stuff that that that like aspects of

2004
01:49:19,240 --> 01:49:22,280
Speaker 1: his life. I only found out about that because I

2005
01:49:22,320 --> 01:49:27,160
Speaker 1: was on this thing you've heard, the warriors Path. Yeah,

2006
01:49:27,320 --> 01:49:29,840
Speaker 1: it's just like one of the basically it's it's one

2007
01:49:29,880 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 1: of those trails, part part.

2008
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:34,240
Speaker 4: Of those great warrior Yes, I know it, I know it.

2009
01:49:34,240 --> 01:49:37,360
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, yeah, I read some thing about Washington, but

2010
01:49:37,439 --> 01:49:40,840
Speaker 1: this is post this is post revolution. He had a

2011
01:49:40,880 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 1: bunch more land claims there from having served his duty that's.

2012
01:49:44,080 --> 01:49:46,639
Speaker 4: Where he got his bought his first land at age eighteen,

2013
01:49:46,720 --> 01:49:47,320
Speaker 4: right along there.

2014
01:49:47,360 --> 01:49:49,840
Speaker 1: Okay, he had went out to take a look at

2015
01:49:50,120 --> 01:49:51,600
Speaker 1: he's got so much land. He hadn't even taken a

2016
01:49:51,640 --> 01:49:53,760
Speaker 1: look at it yet, right went out to take a

2017
01:49:53,800 --> 01:49:55,480
Speaker 1: look and got lost.

2018
01:49:55,640 --> 01:49:55,800
Speaker 4: You know.

2019
01:49:55,880 --> 01:49:57,680
Speaker 1: In his journey talk he describes getting lost. And I

2020
01:49:57,720 --> 01:49:59,760
Speaker 1: met this old timer down there in the Panhandle, a

2021
01:49:59,760 --> 01:50:06,200
Speaker 1: Maria who had he went showed me, you know how

2022
01:50:06,240 --> 01:50:08,280
Speaker 1: you can go to places in the Oregon Trail where

2023
01:50:08,280 --> 01:50:10,640
Speaker 1: it's not like there's no road overlaying it and you

2024
01:50:10,720 --> 01:50:15,479
Speaker 1: see the ruts. He took me out and there's there's

2025
01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:18,000
Speaker 1: a big ass oak tree, and you know, a bunch

2026
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:20,240
Speaker 1: of farmland and stuff. And we go out and there's

2027
01:50:20,240 --> 01:50:22,080
Speaker 1: a big oak tree. And he kind of had he

2028
01:50:22,240 --> 01:50:24,280
Speaker 1: lived there and grew up there and read all the stuff.

2029
01:50:24,360 --> 01:50:28,439
Speaker 1: He's like, Yeah, that trail was here, you know what

2030
01:50:28,439 --> 01:50:30,720
Speaker 1: I mean, And you could still kind of picture it even.

2031
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:32,880
Speaker 4: Was that the Great Warriors Road or was that the

2032
01:50:32,920 --> 01:50:35,639
Speaker 4: Braddock Road? Do you know what the Braddock Road?

2033
01:50:35,840 --> 01:50:37,200
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was part of what wasn't all

2034
01:50:37,240 --> 01:50:39,040
Speaker 1: the same complex roads.

2035
01:50:39,680 --> 01:50:43,960
Speaker 4: That Braddock Road went went from like the head of

2036
01:50:43,960 --> 01:50:48,400
Speaker 4: the not the head of the Potomac, but from like Arlington, Virginia,

2037
01:50:48,479 --> 01:50:52,800
Speaker 4: you know, right near Washington d c. Over the Alleghany

2038
01:50:52,840 --> 01:50:57,040
Speaker 4: Mountains to Pittsburgh. And that was built by General Braddock,

2039
01:50:57,120 --> 01:50:58,439
Speaker 4: who is in the French.

2040
01:50:59,280 --> 01:51:03,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I got but yeah, no, man, because it

2041
01:51:03,360 --> 01:51:05,600
Speaker 1: was like but it could have been, but because you

2042
01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:12,440
Speaker 1: know why it was uh yeah that that could because Morgantown,

2043
01:51:13,400 --> 01:51:14,120
Speaker 1: I know where you're talking.

2044
01:51:14,160 --> 01:51:17,080
Speaker 4: That's a cool place that the road it is, But

2045
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:19,400
Speaker 4: I think it was what you're talking about. The I

2046
01:51:19,400 --> 01:51:22,400
Speaker 4: think is the Great Warriors Road, which was used by

2047
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:24,719
Speaker 4: the tribes like I think it was like a taba

2048
01:51:25,120 --> 01:51:27,840
Speaker 4: in the Great up in the you know, the near

2049
01:51:27,880 --> 01:51:30,640
Speaker 4: the Great Lakes, and they had mortal enemies down in

2050
01:51:30,680 --> 01:51:33,519
Speaker 4: the southeast, and so these tribes would go up and

2051
01:51:33,560 --> 01:51:36,679
Speaker 4: down that road to that path when they would fight

2052
01:51:36,760 --> 01:51:38,760
Speaker 4: each other, and so it became known as a Great

2053
01:51:38,760 --> 01:51:42,280
Speaker 4: Warrior Road, and then when settlers first came there, they

2054
01:51:42,400 --> 01:51:45,000
Speaker 4: became known as a Great wagon road. So it was

2055
01:51:45,080 --> 01:51:49,360
Speaker 4: down the middle of the Allegheny of the Allegheny Valley

2056
01:51:50,439 --> 01:51:53,720
Speaker 4: or that's that.

2057
01:51:54,400 --> 01:51:54,559
Speaker 2: Ay.

2058
01:51:54,840 --> 01:51:58,400
Speaker 1: He took me and said, you can pretty much you

2059
01:51:58,479 --> 01:52:01,439
Speaker 1: see the ruts. Yeah, He's like, it's reasonable to assume

2060
01:52:02,000 --> 01:52:07,799
Speaker 1: the Washington. Yeah, to the right of that oak tree. Totally.

2061
01:52:07,840 --> 01:52:09,400
Speaker 4: I mean that would be totally right, That would be

2062
01:52:09,400 --> 01:52:15,000
Speaker 4: totally and got lost here about that's awesome. So that

2063
01:52:15,080 --> 01:52:20,280
Speaker 4: folk's called young Washington. How let's see how wilderness and

2064
01:52:20,320 --> 01:52:21,960
Speaker 4: war forged the founding father.

2065
01:52:22,200 --> 01:52:27,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, we get into in our long Hunters piece that

2066
01:52:27,760 --> 01:52:34,080
Speaker 1: the audio original is telling about. We get into Washington

2067
01:52:34,160 --> 01:52:37,040
Speaker 1: being there for Braddock's defeat as of some sort of

2068
01:52:37,080 --> 01:52:41,000
Speaker 1: informal advisor, right in the way that the way that

2069
01:52:41,080 --> 01:52:44,360
Speaker 1: battle wound up sort of changing wilderness warfare.

2070
01:52:44,400 --> 01:52:46,680
Speaker 4: And and also that it changed it was one of

2071
01:52:46,720 --> 01:52:50,719
Speaker 4: the pivotal moments of his life because every other officer

2072
01:52:51,160 --> 01:52:55,160
Speaker 4: virtually died, which killed, and he survived, and he had

2073
01:52:55,160 --> 01:52:57,400
Speaker 4: bullets through his coat and his horse was shot out

2074
01:52:57,400 --> 01:53:01,840
Speaker 4: from under him, and that after that it was almost

2075
01:53:02,000 --> 01:53:04,920
Speaker 4: kind of the one of the key pivotal moments that

2076
01:53:05,320 --> 01:53:07,880
Speaker 4: turned him from being the self centered guy who's really

2077
01:53:07,920 --> 01:53:10,200
Speaker 4: ambitious and trying to be a British royal officer and

2078
01:53:10,240 --> 01:53:14,360
Speaker 4: whatnot into someone who was kind of thinking about a

2079
01:53:14,439 --> 01:53:18,320
Speaker 4: larger picture. Because after that battle and he survived and

2080
01:53:18,600 --> 01:53:21,320
Speaker 4: so many other people officers were killed, he said, well,

2081
01:53:21,439 --> 01:53:23,599
Speaker 4: providence he wrote this in a letter to his brother

2082
01:53:23,960 --> 01:53:28,320
Speaker 4: Providence must be saving me for some larger purpose. Now

2083
01:53:28,360 --> 01:53:32,519
Speaker 4: there's a footnote to them and not laying grabbing. Well

2084
01:53:32,560 --> 01:53:36,160
Speaker 4: that could you have to you have to have a

2085
01:53:36,160 --> 01:53:39,599
Speaker 4: backup plan, right. But but you know what's really occurred

2086
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:42,200
Speaker 4: to me that you guys would find this way interesting

2087
01:53:42,840 --> 01:53:44,960
Speaker 4: because I've now, I've studied a lot of these battles,

2088
01:53:45,040 --> 01:53:48,400
Speaker 4: especially you know in the in the east, these early

2089
01:53:48,800 --> 01:53:52,960
Speaker 4: early Indian warfare, the Northwest Indian Wars and French and

2090
01:53:53,040 --> 01:53:58,160
Speaker 4: Indian War. But in that in that battle Braddock's defeat Braddock,

2091
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:01,880
Speaker 4: I mean, why Shington, You know, he wanted to be

2092
01:54:01,960 --> 01:54:04,519
Speaker 4: a British Royal Army officer and they wouldn't let him in.

2093
01:54:04,600 --> 01:54:06,560
Speaker 4: I mean, he didn't have much of an education, he

2094
01:54:06,640 --> 01:54:09,840
Speaker 4: was kind of crude. He'd already really screwed up in

2095
01:54:09,960 --> 01:54:14,280
Speaker 4: a calusing his own massacre early in the going, and

2096
01:54:14,520 --> 01:54:16,000
Speaker 4: so they wouldn't let him in as a you know,

2097
01:54:16,040 --> 01:54:19,200
Speaker 4: a guy. They wouldn't let him wear a red coat

2098
01:54:19,280 --> 01:54:23,520
Speaker 4: and gold braids, and so he was wearing like civilian

2099
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:28,640
Speaker 4: clothes or you know, hunter's clothes during Braddock's defeat. And

2100
01:54:28,680 --> 01:54:31,120
Speaker 4: so who do you think that Indians shoot first man,

2101
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:35,000
Speaker 4: they take out the they take out the officers, and

2102
01:54:35,080 --> 01:54:38,280
Speaker 4: so all the officers got mowed down almost instantly. But

2103
01:54:38,320 --> 01:54:40,360
Speaker 4: they you know, Washington didn't really show up on their

2104
01:54:40,440 --> 01:54:45,680
Speaker 4: radar screen, and so he uh. In my theory, that's

2105
01:54:45,920 --> 01:54:48,480
Speaker 4: one of the main reasons he survived. He was incredibly brave,

2106
01:54:48,520 --> 01:54:50,240
Speaker 4: I mean, no doubt about it, and his whole life

2107
01:54:50,360 --> 01:54:51,360
Speaker 4: incredible bravery.

2108
01:54:51,720 --> 01:54:55,160
Speaker 1: You know, in The Long Hunters we mentioned this connection

2109
01:54:55,320 --> 01:54:56,640
Speaker 1: that Boone was there that day.

2110
01:54:57,040 --> 01:54:58,920
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2111
01:54:57,360 --> 01:55:01,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was a teamster, so he mentioned it like Boone,

2112
01:55:03,240 --> 01:55:07,080
Speaker 1: even though even though Washington was later critical of frontiersmen

2113
01:55:07,160 --> 01:55:11,200
Speaker 1: like Boone, Boone would have been aware, You'd have been

2114
01:55:11,240 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 1: aware of Washington almost certainly, he'd been aware of him,

2115
01:55:15,000 --> 01:55:18,040
Speaker 1: of his presidence, would have seen him, yes, and conversely

2116
01:55:18,080 --> 01:55:20,280
Speaker 1: Boone would Washington would have zero idea.

2117
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:21,360
Speaker 4: Who Boone was exactly.

2118
01:55:21,480 --> 01:55:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think when you look at the hierarchy of

2119
01:55:24,040 --> 01:55:28,960
Speaker 1: the people, and Washington was was literally attached to General

2120
01:55:29,000 --> 01:55:33,160
Speaker 1: Braddock's camp, so he would have you know, their meals

2121
01:55:33,200 --> 01:55:36,080
Speaker 1: would be served in the General's you know, meal tent,

2122
01:55:36,560 --> 01:55:37,400
Speaker 1: and they have.

2123
01:55:37,800 --> 01:55:43,120
Speaker 4: Like sterling silver platters going on here, and it's you know,

2124
01:55:43,160 --> 01:55:43,640
Speaker 4: it's a whole.

2125
01:55:43,680 --> 01:55:46,560
Speaker 1: It's not what Daniel Boone was eating off of. You know,

2126
01:55:46,800 --> 01:55:48,720
Speaker 1: he had a bowie knife.

2127
01:55:48,480 --> 01:55:52,120
Speaker 4: Would be his version of his sterling silver. And so

2128
01:55:52,360 --> 01:55:55,960
Speaker 4: and I think if I remember, I think Boone was

2129
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:59,400
Speaker 4: like seventeen or eighteen or maybe nineteen at most young,

2130
01:55:59,560 --> 01:56:03,440
Speaker 4: and and Washington would have been in his early twenties,

2131
01:56:03,480 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 4: twenty three maybe, And so I don't think Boone was

2132
01:56:06,920 --> 01:56:10,920
Speaker 4: anywhere near that that corps of officers other than you know,

2133
01:56:10,920 --> 01:56:15,080
Speaker 4: knowing where they are. And yeah, Washington would, well, there's

2134
01:56:15,120 --> 01:56:17,680
Speaker 4: like a mule tier back there, sure, yeah, one of many.

2135
01:56:17,840 --> 01:56:20,600
Speaker 4: And but but Boone, to his credit, could see the

2136
01:56:20,640 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 4: writing on the wall right away.

2137
01:56:25,120 --> 01:56:30,240
Speaker 1: Bo yeah, bo real quick. So I can see how

2138
01:56:30,240 --> 01:56:32,920
Speaker 1: this leads in. But really quickly hit us with uh,

2139
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:35,560
Speaker 1: hit us with your book about to come so that

2140
01:56:35,600 --> 01:56:39,640
Speaker 1: come shut. That winds up like that's very tied to

2141
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:41,520
Speaker 1: this because one of the things you see, you look

2142
01:56:41,520 --> 01:56:46,080
Speaker 1: at the French and Indian War, the Revolution, the War

2143
01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:50,560
Speaker 1: of eighteen twelve, you wouldn't have perceived it if you

2144
01:56:50,600 --> 01:56:54,640
Speaker 1: were alive, then you wouldn't have perceived these as distinct No, no,

2145
01:56:55,000 --> 01:56:55,960
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? It was? It was

2146
01:56:56,000 --> 01:57:00,000
Speaker 1: the Great European powers. Right, it was like the great

2147
01:57:00,080 --> 01:57:04,920
Speaker 1: European powers jockeying for infacting and then using tribes as

2148
01:57:05,000 --> 01:57:05,879
Speaker 1: proxy forces.

2149
01:57:05,920 --> 01:57:06,640
Speaker 4: That's exactly right.

2150
01:57:06,640 --> 01:57:10,720
Speaker 1: And it would have just seemed like like like someone

2151
01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:17,600
Speaker 1: involved in the Cold War would have would have been Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan,

2152
01:57:18,080 --> 01:57:20,480
Speaker 1: like all this stuff would have sort of bled into

2153
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:25,240
Speaker 1: this this broader thing against Soviet influence, right, you know

2154
01:57:25,280 --> 01:57:27,040
Speaker 1: what I mean, And you'd be like, oh, yeah, there's

2155
01:57:27,080 --> 01:57:28,600
Speaker 1: there's this and this and this, but it's part of

2156
01:57:28,600 --> 01:57:32,720
Speaker 1: this broader story of the West, like like for sure,

2157
01:57:32,800 --> 01:57:34,480
Speaker 1: yea capitalism and communism.

2158
01:57:34,840 --> 01:57:37,080
Speaker 4: Yeah you know, oh yeah, that West I mean pos

2159
01:57:37,160 --> 01:57:40,720
Speaker 4: the American West and the West mean West, you know

2160
01:57:41,600 --> 01:57:43,720
Speaker 4: as the global West, that global.

2161
01:57:43,640 --> 01:57:46,480
Speaker 1: But all these a lot of what we're talking about

2162
01:57:46,520 --> 01:57:50,760
Speaker 1: here is sort of these like all conflicts, I mean,

2163
01:57:50,920 --> 01:57:54,919
Speaker 1: they all like bleed into one another and players overlap exactly,

2164
01:57:54,960 --> 01:57:56,919
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, Like a play like Washington

2165
01:57:57,360 --> 01:58:01,280
Speaker 1: was a player in French and Dinian War and very

2166
01:58:01,320 --> 01:58:03,920
Speaker 1: involved in the revolution. And then people that were very

2167
01:58:03,960 --> 01:58:07,720
Speaker 1: involved in the revolution were War of eighteen twelve, right, right,

2168
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:09,520
Speaker 1: and then they enter the political sphere.

2169
01:58:10,120 --> 01:58:12,680
Speaker 4: No, that's exactly right, and that's I mean that's sort

2170
01:58:12,720 --> 01:58:15,320
Speaker 4: of what I've been fascinated with my you know, for

2171
01:58:15,400 --> 01:58:18,240
Speaker 4: some years now and writing about just that period that

2172
01:58:18,280 --> 01:58:21,000
Speaker 4: you're talking about, and actually a story is part of it,

2173
01:58:21,040 --> 01:58:24,240
Speaker 4: because it's you know, it's the West coast projection of Empire.

2174
01:58:24,720 --> 01:58:28,240
Speaker 4: And you know, you have in Astoria, you have the Russians,

2175
01:58:28,280 --> 01:58:30,600
Speaker 4: you have the French, you have the British, you have

2176
01:58:30,600 --> 01:58:32,920
Speaker 4: the Americans, and you have the Spanish, all vying for

2177
01:58:32,960 --> 01:58:35,080
Speaker 4: the West coast at this at the same time, right

2178
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:38,680
Speaker 4: around the year eighteen hundred, in the east of the continent.

2179
01:58:39,640 --> 01:58:41,560
Speaker 4: You know, at the when you start out in like

2180
01:58:42,040 --> 01:58:48,720
Speaker 4: seventeen ninety, the White settlement, it barely goes to the

2181
01:58:48,800 --> 01:58:51,960
Speaker 4: Appalachian Mountains. I mean, it's trickled over a little bit,

2182
01:58:52,000 --> 01:58:56,200
Speaker 4: but barely. And so there's all that land out there

2183
01:58:56,880 --> 01:59:00,200
Speaker 4: that's that's a no man's land in terms of of

2184
01:59:00,960 --> 01:59:04,280
Speaker 4: European empires. Of course, it's tribal land, and there's a

2185
01:59:04,320 --> 01:59:07,400
Speaker 4: whole dynamic that's gone on for centuries among the tribes.

2186
01:59:07,760 --> 01:59:08,320
Speaker 1: But that.

2187
01:59:09,880 --> 01:59:12,720
Speaker 4: Land, I mean not only in the seventeen nineties, but

2188
01:59:12,840 --> 01:59:18,080
Speaker 4: in the decades before that was in a way I

2189
01:59:18,120 --> 01:59:22,240
Speaker 4: think I described that Ohio Valley land. It became a

2190
01:59:22,280 --> 01:59:27,360
Speaker 4: storm center of the world where these empires ended up

2191
01:59:28,440 --> 01:59:32,360
Speaker 4: conflicting with each other and essentially fighting it out, and

2192
01:59:32,400 --> 01:59:36,920
Speaker 4: as you say, using the tribes as proxies. And one

2193
01:59:36,960 --> 01:59:39,440
Speaker 4: of the things I really emphasized when I talk about

2194
01:59:39,440 --> 01:59:45,920
Speaker 4: this is that in these years, in seventeen nineties, eighteen hundred,

2195
01:59:46,000 --> 01:59:49,320
Speaker 4: eighteen twelve, I mean right up to then, nobody knew

2196
01:59:49,320 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 4: what the US was going to be. I mean, nobody

2197
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:53,600
Speaker 4: knew if it was going to survive. No one knew

2198
01:59:53,800 --> 01:59:58,280
Speaker 4: if this was like an experiment. Because now I've gone

2199
01:59:58,280 --> 02:00:00,600
Speaker 4: into this stuff so deeply and really read records of

2200
02:00:00,640 --> 02:00:04,440
Speaker 4: Congress when they're arguing about all this stuff. It's some

2201
02:00:04,480 --> 02:00:06,880
Speaker 4: of these these frontier issues and some of these like

2202
02:00:07,520 --> 02:00:11,960
Speaker 4: other issues. But it's like I think of it as, uh,

2203
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:15,480
Speaker 4: you know, have you ever built with framed something? He

2204
02:00:15,600 --> 02:00:16,680
Speaker 4: used to be a framing guy.

2205
02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:19,080
Speaker 1: No, I've been. I've been, I've done some I was not.

2206
02:00:19,160 --> 02:00:21,040
Speaker 1: I can't. I can't like claim to that I was

2207
02:00:21,080 --> 02:00:23,080
Speaker 1: a tree man. I know you did closet work at

2208
02:00:23,080 --> 02:00:25,080
Speaker 1: one point. I did that, but that's not framing.

2209
02:00:25,920 --> 02:00:28,160
Speaker 4: But okay, well, if you think.

2210
02:00:28,160 --> 02:00:30,800
Speaker 1: Like cabinet stuff and yeah, yeah, but not okay, But

2211
02:00:30,840 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 1: think of like, I don't want to. I don't want to.

2212
02:00:32,480 --> 02:00:34,280
Speaker 1: I don't want to have that that crown on my

2213
02:00:34,320 --> 02:00:37,400
Speaker 1: head as a frame. Well, surprised if cal is a

2214
02:00:37,400 --> 02:00:37,880
Speaker 1: framing man.

2215
02:00:37,960 --> 02:00:42,920
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I can list of places that are still

2216
02:00:42,920 --> 02:00:43,839
Speaker 5: standing proudly.

2217
02:00:45,040 --> 02:00:48,880
Speaker 4: Okay. Now imagine you built that place out of out

2218
02:00:48,920 --> 02:00:56,320
Speaker 4: of green uncured wood and rough song, you know, completely green,

2219
02:00:56,760 --> 02:01:01,160
Speaker 4: and you hammered together this frame, you know, and you

2220
02:01:01,320 --> 02:01:04,080
Speaker 4: kind of tack it in with the nails like halfway

2221
02:01:04,080 --> 02:01:07,640
Speaker 4: in and make this sort of structure. Well, that's the

2222
02:01:07,640 --> 02:01:09,880
Speaker 4: way the United States was in seventeen ninety.

2223
02:01:10,280 --> 02:01:13,080
Speaker 6: That at a lot of my projects resemble that.

2224
02:01:14,040 --> 02:01:17,480
Speaker 4: I mean literally, that's the total image that comes to mind.

2225
02:01:17,800 --> 02:01:21,800
Speaker 4: And and so so much hadn't been worked out and

2226
02:01:22,280 --> 02:01:26,640
Speaker 4: one of the I could go all day and night

2227
02:01:26,680 --> 02:01:30,200
Speaker 4: about it, but that one of the things that really

2228
02:01:30,240 --> 02:01:32,960
Speaker 4: wasn't clear is like how far west the US was

2229
02:01:33,000 --> 02:01:35,360
Speaker 4: going to go. So it was not a done deal

2230
02:01:35,360 --> 02:01:38,200
Speaker 4: that the US was going to go even past the

2231
02:01:38,240 --> 02:01:42,080
Speaker 4: Appellations or even to the Mississippi or no way to

2232
02:01:42,160 --> 02:01:45,000
Speaker 4: the west coast. And so that in the British were

2233
02:01:45,000 --> 02:01:49,040
Speaker 4: really you know, their literal plan was to create what

2234
02:01:49,160 --> 02:01:52,520
Speaker 4: was called an Indian Barrier State, which would have been

2235
02:01:52,960 --> 02:01:57,600
Speaker 4: a no man's land, neutral territory where where imperial powers

2236
02:01:57,640 --> 02:02:01,040
Speaker 4: in the US had had no control. All. That would

2237
02:02:01,080 --> 02:02:05,360
Speaker 4: be a strip of land, essentially the Ohio and Mississippi

2238
02:02:05,440 --> 02:02:08,080
Speaker 4: Valley that hole all the way from the Great Lakes

2239
02:02:08,120 --> 02:02:11,080
Speaker 4: down to the Gulf of Mexico tribal tribal land, and

2240
02:02:11,440 --> 02:02:15,080
Speaker 4: it would be controlled by the tribes and the Brits

2241
02:02:15,120 --> 02:02:17,760
Speaker 4: and Americans were free to trade there, you know, in

2242
02:02:17,760 --> 02:02:21,760
Speaker 4: this sort of controlled way. But that's the bridge. They

2243
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:24,160
Speaker 4: they made it several different points, a push for what

2244
02:02:24,200 --> 02:02:26,680
Speaker 4: they call the Indian Barrier State. In a way, it

2245
02:02:26,680 --> 02:02:28,720
Speaker 4: would be like trying to not in a way it

2246
02:02:28,800 --> 02:02:32,800
Speaker 4: was literally trying to bottle up the little fledgling baby

2247
02:02:32,960 --> 02:02:35,520
Speaker 4: United States, to bottle it up on the East coast

2248
02:02:35,680 --> 02:02:38,720
Speaker 4: so it didn't come over the Appalachian Mountains and didn't

2249
02:02:38,760 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 4: screw around with you know, British holdings in the interior

2250
02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:44,440
Speaker 4: of the continent, didn't screw around with a really valuable

2251
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:48,760
Speaker 4: fur trade that was out farther west. And so in

2252
02:02:48,800 --> 02:02:52,600
Speaker 4: this era, we're talking about a country that didn't it

2253
02:02:52,680 --> 02:02:55,680
Speaker 4: didn't really know how it was going to fully function

2254
02:02:56,000 --> 02:02:59,640
Speaker 4: it and it didn't know what's what size it was,

2255
02:03:00,080 --> 02:03:03,680
Speaker 4: know how far it would go. So these the battles

2256
02:03:03,680 --> 02:03:06,400
Speaker 4: that we're talking about, this whole era, it's as you're saying,

2257
02:03:06,440 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 4: it's all part of that art. It's all part of

2258
02:03:08,760 --> 02:03:11,600
Speaker 4: that peace, and it's like working it out.

2259
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:14,040
Speaker 1: Tell the Tell the title of the comes the book.

2260
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:18,960
Speaker 4: It's called Gallop toward the Sun to Kamsa and William

2261
02:03:19,000 --> 02:03:22,840
Speaker 4: Henry Harrison's struggle for the destiny of a nation, and

2262
02:03:22,880 --> 02:03:24,480
Speaker 4: that was I guess you.

2263
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:28,600
Speaker 1: Could put his so to. Kamsa was a war leader

2264
02:03:29,520 --> 02:03:33,000
Speaker 1: who had a prophet brother, yes, and they put an

2265
02:03:33,040 --> 02:03:36,760
Speaker 1: idea of instead of tribes inner fighting, instead of like

2266
02:03:36,800 --> 02:03:42,280
Speaker 1: internacine conflict, they would unite all the tribes and push

2267
02:03:42,360 --> 02:03:43,800
Speaker 1: America back into the ocean.

2268
02:03:44,760 --> 02:03:47,120
Speaker 4: Well yeah, or at least stop it from pushing them

2269
02:03:47,120 --> 02:03:50,120
Speaker 4: into the ocean. And it wasn't so much about stopping

2270
02:03:50,160 --> 02:03:54,000
Speaker 4: internice conflict. It was about agreeing to hold the land

2271
02:03:54,040 --> 02:03:58,080
Speaker 4: as one, as one entity. So what was happening is

2272
02:03:58,120 --> 02:04:03,440
Speaker 4: that that, you know, the federal agents would approach one

2273
02:04:03,560 --> 02:04:06,960
Speaker 4: tribe or one sub chief of one tribe and try

2274
02:04:07,000 --> 02:04:12,000
Speaker 4: to pry you know, land or some kind of agreement

2275
02:04:12,000 --> 02:04:15,160
Speaker 4: out of that chief who might actually be selling some

2276
02:04:15,240 --> 02:04:18,200
Speaker 4: other tribes land hundreds of miles away. So it was

2277
02:04:18,440 --> 02:04:20,160
Speaker 4: like all was splitting.

2278
02:04:20,520 --> 02:04:22,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a common thing that a guy be like, sure,

2279
02:04:23,080 --> 02:04:24,520
Speaker 1: i'll sell that to you. Yeah.

2280
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:28,520
Speaker 4: Well, I mean the Iroquois sold sold all of the

2281
02:04:28,640 --> 02:04:36,360
Speaker 4: all of Kentucky to the the Brits, the Iroquois. Yeah,

2282
02:04:36,400 --> 02:04:39,080
Speaker 4: and the you know, the Iroquois were seven hundred miles

2283
02:04:39,080 --> 02:04:41,440
Speaker 4: and miles away when they signed a contract.

2284
02:04:41,520 --> 02:04:43,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you could have all that land down there.

2285
02:04:43,920 --> 02:04:46,400
Speaker 4: The Cherokees think it's theirs, but now we know it's not.

2286
02:04:46,560 --> 02:04:52,880
Speaker 4: There's That's exactly what happened. Uh, we got to wrap yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh,

2287
02:04:52,880 --> 02:04:55,840
Speaker 4: there's so many fun things to do things about. But

2288
02:04:56,040 --> 02:04:57,160
Speaker 4: give the name of the to comes to the book

2289
02:04:57,200 --> 02:05:00,600
Speaker 4: against people. People like to say it is called Gallop

2290
02:05:00,680 --> 02:05:05,040
Speaker 4: toward the Sun to Kumsa and William Henry Harrison's Struggle

2291
02:05:05,080 --> 02:05:06,320
Speaker 4: for the Destiny of a Nation.

2292
02:05:07,200 --> 02:05:09,040
Speaker 1: I'll say this, you read all Peter's books, You're going

2293
02:05:09,120 --> 02:05:10,720
Speaker 1: to dominate media to trivia.

2294
02:05:11,080 --> 02:05:11,520
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm.

2295
02:05:12,040 --> 02:05:15,440
Speaker 6: A few questions or a few answers have have We've

2296
02:05:15,480 --> 02:05:16,480
Speaker 6: alluded to them today?

2297
02:05:16,520 --> 02:05:19,040
Speaker 1: If past A lot of times he says stuff and

2298
02:05:19,080 --> 02:05:21,520
Speaker 1: I've been like that was a trivia question, all right,

2299
02:05:21,560 --> 02:05:22,760
Speaker 1: Peter starked, the answer coming on.

2300
02:05:22,880 --> 02:05:27,320
Speaker 4: Man, Yeah, really fun to talk to you. We have

2301
02:05:27,360 --> 02:05:29,680
Speaker 4: to have you back on again anytime. Let me know

2302
02:05:29,880 --> 02:05:30,240
Speaker 4: the well.

2303
02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:34,280
Speaker 1: The well is deep until it tries up.

2304
02:05:35,680 --> 02:05:39,360
Speaker 4: Thanks man, yeah, thank you.

2305
02:05:39,440 --> 02:05:45,040
Speaker 9: We no vine a mata then Steve Vandila. I can

2306
02:05:45,080 --> 02:05:49,080
Speaker 9: go on and on forever, Jes talking about squirrels and

2307
02:05:49,240 --> 02:05:53,480
Speaker 9: ask him about nigga see and there's no vine. I'd

2308
02:05:53,640 --> 02:05:56,600
Speaker 9: an I asked, tell us an eagle, Lie Cooper killingly.

2309
02:05:56,800 --> 02:06:01,120
Speaker 9: Vin Mennisburg talking about his mama is set flashed before

2310
02:06:01,160 --> 02:06:04,640
Speaker 9: your eyes, and there's no bide. I've added from good

2311
02:06:04,720 --> 02:06:07,560
Speaker 9: power just I can turn a dollar tow with diamond

2312
02:06:07,640 --> 02:06:11,960
Speaker 9: and now we're bout just making a few minor investments.

2313
02:06:13,000 --> 02:06:15,280
Speaker 1: And there's no bide. I've had an a man.

2314
02:06:15,440 --> 02:06:16,960
Speaker 9: Then Spencer got got to.

2315
02:06:17,040 --> 02:06:18,560
Speaker 11: Treat tattooed on in forever.

2316
02:06:18,720 --> 02:06:25,440
Speaker 9: But Leaves don't know hold it against him. It's just

2317
02:06:25,680 --> 02:06:28,560
Speaker 9: something about that meat in and crew.

2318
02:06:30,400 --> 02:06:30,920
Speaker 1: It keeps me.

2319
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:33,720
Speaker 9: Sud in it f it out or.

2320
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:42,000
Speaker 11: Two HEMI it's just a really good damn shoot meebe

2321
02:06:42,160 --> 02:06:43,880
Speaker 11: is how much the boys don't little to act like

2322
02:06:43,960 --> 02:06:44,360
Speaker 11: they know.

2323
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:47,960
Speaker 1: But either way, I want to give them a mischiel.

2324
02:06:48,120 --> 02:06:48,960
Speaker 1: Getting head a little