1 00:00:01,800 --> 00:00:04,320 Speaker 1: Also media. 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,600 Speaker 2: Oh, welcome back to Behind the Bastards, a podcast about 3 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 2: bad people who are the people you'll be hearing about 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 2: most in your daily life if you spend any amount 5 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,080 Speaker 2: of time on social media or listening to the news. 6 00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 2: But we're gonna be talking about a fun one today, 7 00:00:21,160 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: not as depressing as the bad people who make up 8 00:00:24,120 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 2: the rest of your day to day life. I don't know. 9 00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: They make up my day to day life, and that's 10 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: pretty depressing. But not today, because we've got Molly Lambert 11 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 2: as a guest. Molly, welcome on the show. Are you 12 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:37,240 Speaker 2: ready to have your day be worse? 13 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 3: Oh yeah? 14 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 2: Oh great? A transition to the Tall Boys of ZeVA. 15 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:43,600 Speaker 4: You are. 16 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:47,680 Speaker 5: For some reason that's very funny to me. 17 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. Twelve ounce has just wasn't enough. Molly, what 18 00:00:51,440 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 2: do you gotta plug today? At the start of the episode, 19 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 2: before we introduce our. 20 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 3: Bastard, I've got a book that came out called Double 21 00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 3: Ax and Pop. 22 00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 5: Holy Congratulations, Yes, thank you. 23 00:01:02,760 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 3: It's from commercial type. It's about musical duo acts and 24 00:01:08,120 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 3: everybody check it out. And then later this year I 25 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 3: have a podcast coming out called Jenna World, which is 26 00:01:13,200 --> 00:01:16,720 Speaker 3: about the history of the Peorn industry through kind of 27 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 3: the Jenna Jamison story. 28 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,640 Speaker 2: Oh awesome, Yeah, that sounds fascinating. Well, today we're not 29 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 2: talking about Genna Jamison. We're not talking about anyone who 30 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 2: has ever done anything good at all. We are talking 31 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:32,119 Speaker 2: about Kevin Smith. Not that Kevin Smith, not the one 32 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 2: who directed doc, although it is I don't know, we'll 33 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:40,800 Speaker 2: title this the other Kevin Smith or some shit. We're 34 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 2: talking This guy is a Jamaican pastor who led a 35 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 2: charismatic Christian End Time sect in Jamaica and lost his 36 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 2: mind as a result of COVID lockdowns and wound up 37 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: trying to have slit dozens of people's throats and moss 38 00:01:53,280 --> 00:01:57,280 Speaker 2: during a church service. This is a wild story, and 39 00:01:57,320 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 2: the fact that he has just named Kevin Smith the 40 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: whole time is going to be frustrating. I'm gonna i'll 41 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,360 Speaker 2: cop to that right now. If you want to imagine 42 00:02:07,400 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: silent Bob committing the heinous atrocities we're about to discuss, 43 00:02:10,520 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 2: that's your business, although you should probably also talk to 44 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 2: a therapist if you feel compelled to do that. Mollie, 45 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 2: you ever heard of this guy, I'm gonna guess not. 46 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: I had not until I started doing this digging. 47 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 3: No, I've never heard of him. 48 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 2: Uh huh, Well, welcome to a real fascinating piece of 49 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,959 Speaker 2: shit who is also kind of a Canadian bastard too, 50 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 2: So we've got that going for us, like Canadian Jamaican 51 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:39,119 Speaker 2: real monster solidarity here in this week's episodes. And we'll 52 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:40,799 Speaker 2: have all that and more when we come back from 53 00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:41,440 Speaker 2: the cold open. 54 00:02:41,840 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 3: Oh what. 55 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 2: We're back, Mollie. You ready to get into it? Let's 56 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,959 Speaker 2: do it, okay. So our bastard for this week's full 57 00:02:56,040 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 2: name was Kevin Antonio Smith on T O in I E. L. Right, 58 00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:04,959 Speaker 2: that's his name. We could call him Kevin O'smith to 59 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: differentiate him from again, silent Bob, but I don't know 60 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,799 Speaker 2: how necessary that is. He was born in nineteen eighty two, probably, 61 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 2: although again, this guy is like a cult leader caught. 62 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,680 Speaker 2: You never know with these fuckers. That's the first sign 63 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 2: someone's a cult leader, is like. The birth date's a 64 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: real open question, so funny probably, though there's some sources 65 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:30,640 Speaker 2: that suggest he might be a little younger than this, 66 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 2: born more in the late eighties. And I've just got 67 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 2: no idea what day or month he came into the world. 68 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:39,520 Speaker 2: I guess it doesn't matter all that much. He was 69 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: definitely born in a town called glengof GLn Goffe in 70 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,119 Speaker 2: the parish of Saint Catharine. And this is in Jamaica. 71 00:03:47,320 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 2: It's one of the most prosperous parts of the island. 72 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 2: It's second only to Kingston as an industrial center, and 73 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 2: it's got good access to water and a really good 74 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 2: growing climate. So he comes up in like a fairly 75 00:03:57,920 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 2: you know, Jamaica is an island with a lot of poverty, 76 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 2: but he comes up in a fairly comfortable part of 77 00:04:01,880 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 2: the island compared to some other parts. We have very 78 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: little information about his early life, aside from the fact 79 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 2: that he would later claim to have been physically abused 80 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 2: by his father, who died when he was very young. 81 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 2: So his mom's going to raise him on her own 82 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 2: for much of his adolescence, which again not a wildly 83 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:23,200 Speaker 2: uncommon cult leader backstory. And this statistically, you know, just 84 00:04:23,240 --> 00:04:25,120 Speaker 2: since the fact that she's a single mom might suggest 85 00:04:25,160 --> 00:04:27,080 Speaker 2: that he came up in a degree of poverty, but 86 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:29,560 Speaker 2: there's not a lot of evidence either way, right Like, 87 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 2: In fact, it kind of seems the evidence suggests more 88 00:04:31,920 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 2: that she managed to keep them fairly comfortable I'm not 89 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 2: sure what she did, but they don't seem to have 90 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 2: been like on the edge of poverty or whatever. Right, 91 00:04:41,720 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 2: he claims to have been baptized at age nine, and 92 00:04:44,480 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 2: it's unclear which denomination he was from, but some sort 93 00:04:48,520 --> 00:04:51,279 Speaker 2: of Protestant sect, right, just based on kind of the 94 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 2: demographics of Jamaica and based on his later religious life, 95 00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:57,360 Speaker 2: it was some kind of evangelical Protestant sect that he's 96 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,720 Speaker 2: baptized into. We can be pretty pretty sure of that. 97 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 2: Years later, as part of a court case that we 98 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 2: will talk about more in the future, Kevin would claim 99 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 2: to have again been sexually abused as a child by 100 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 2: a male relative, so both physically abused by his dad 101 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:13,120 Speaker 2: and sexually abused by a male relative. We don't know 102 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: how old he would have been when this happened, but 103 00:05:14,880 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: he's probably pre adolescent, somewhere around like ten to twelve. 104 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 2: We know that he goes on to attend Jamaica College, 105 00:05:21,880 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: which confusingly is not a college, this is a high school. 106 00:05:27,040 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 2: I've read enough of the history to tell you I 107 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 2: can't give you a perfect idea of why they called 108 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 2: it Jamaica College, other than that word hasn't always meant 109 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,760 Speaker 2: the same thing, right. I think the school is initially 110 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 2: established by like some I believe it's a Catholic member 111 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 2: of the clergy who like leaves a bunch of money behind. 112 00:05:42,480 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 2: But I forget exactly. But it's one of the best 113 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 2: secondary schools in all of Jamaica. Right, So this is 114 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:51,559 Speaker 2: and it's not just I say it's primarily a secondary school. 115 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:53,400 Speaker 2: I think you can start going there when you're about 116 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: ten years old, right, So it doesn't exactly map onto 117 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: what we call a secondary school. But this is a 118 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 2: real good school, and it's a public school. 119 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: Right. 120 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 2: It's free to attend, and it's kind of got like 121 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,320 Speaker 2: a degree of international fame. So being able to get 122 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,640 Speaker 2: into Jamaica College suggests that you're like a kid who's 123 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 2: done really well in school or has connections or both. 124 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 2: Now my sources somewhat disagree here, but it seems like 125 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: he kind of he doesn't finish his education at Jamaica College. 126 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 2: He goes there. He probably starts when he's around ten, 127 00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 2: and he probably leaves when he's around fourteen. The Toronto 128 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: Caribbean newspaper claims that this is when his mother moves 129 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 2: the family to Canada in nineteen ninety six, but there's 130 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,520 Speaker 2: disagreement on when the family moves to Canada. The Walrus, 131 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 2: which is an award winning Canadian magazine, says they moved 132 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 2: when he was twelve, which would have been probably around 133 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 2: ninety four, although again we don't know his birthday really, 134 00:06:43,920 --> 00:06:47,800 Speaker 2: so it's unclear how much time he spent at Jamaica College, 135 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: but a report on his social media history by the 136 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 2: Jamaica Gleaner shows a photo of him wearing the school uniform, 137 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: so we know that he went there at some point, right, 138 00:06:56,360 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 2: So sometime between two and four years at this fairly 139 00:06:58,880 --> 00:07:02,479 Speaker 2: prestigious academy, and then the family emigrates to Canada, and 140 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 2: the fact that they were able to do so legally 141 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:07,720 Speaker 2: again suggests kind of a degree of financial comfort, because 142 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 2: that's just not like a super cheap or easy thing, right, 143 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 2: And it probably also suggests that like there's a lot 144 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:16,160 Speaker 2: of family support that's usually the case when people are 145 00:07:16,200 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 2: able to make this move from Jamaica to Canada, that 146 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 2: like members of their family kind of pool to help 147 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: make this possible, right, whatever the case, He graduates high 148 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 2: school in Canada and it's here that he starts preaching 149 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 2: for the first time. Right, and this is this is 150 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 2: where we start getting like the foreboding music. You know, 151 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:36,440 Speaker 2: this kid is like one of these teenage preachers. Like 152 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 2: he gets into being an evangelical pastor at a very 153 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 2: early age, which is almost never a good thing, right, 154 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 2: Whenever someone's described as a gifted child preacher, which I've 155 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 2: found references to in the Toronto Caribbean newspaper, it's like 156 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 2: a bad thing, right, like that almost I've never heard 157 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: of that ending. 158 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:55,040 Speaker 3: Well, hey, what if he's just got the touch? 159 00:07:55,080 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 2: Come on, yeah, he's got the touch, He's got the power. 160 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: If you watch I always recommend the documentary Marjoe when 161 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 2: we talk about this, which is about a kid who 162 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 2: was like used by his parents as a preacher from 163 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: like age five or six on. It's a really fucked 164 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,680 Speaker 2: up documentary, won an Oscar. But there's a lot of 165 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 2: this in the kind of Apostolic community and the Pentecostal community, 166 00:08:20,320 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: right that like this attitude that well, because you're sort 167 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:27,360 Speaker 2: of touched by God to become a preacher, the younger 168 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,320 Speaker 2: you can bring someone in and get them preaching. Number one, 169 00:08:30,440 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 2: it helps establish their career. You can be like I've 170 00:08:32,559 --> 00:08:34,800 Speaker 2: been doing this since I was sixteen or seventeen or 171 00:08:34,800 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 2: even younger, right, But it also it's kind of like 172 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,600 Speaker 2: a it's a marketing tool, right that you've got. We've 173 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 2: got a child preacher, you know, God speaking of this 174 00:08:42,800 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 2: little young man, and you know you need to hear 175 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 2: what he's got to say. That's kind of a big 176 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 2: deal in the community. We're not entirely certain where he 177 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 2: comes up within sort of the evangelical community in Toronto. 178 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,239 Speaker 2: I've heard references to the Apostolic community in Toronto, Caribbean, 179 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 2: although the Walrusk claims he joins the Exodus Deliverance Temple 180 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 2: in Mississaugua at age seventeen, and these are slightly in conflict, 181 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 2: although he could have done both, because that's just sort 182 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: of the way this community works. If that's the case. 183 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 2: The Exodus Deliverance Temple is founded in nineteen ninety nine, 184 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 2: which meant he would have joined the year it was founded. 185 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 2: And I kind of doubt that this is the case, 186 00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 2: just because I looked at their website and they say 187 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 2: that when the church was founded, it was founded with 188 00:09:30,880 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 2: only a few family members in a quaint and old 189 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:36,560 Speaker 2: white village hall. And he's not a member of the 190 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: family that founded this church. So I think it's more 191 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 2: likely that he comes out of the Apostolic community in Toronto. 192 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:45,439 Speaker 2: But the Walrisks may have done, you know, have access 193 00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 2: to information. I don't. I don't know if I'm getting 194 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 2: into the weeds too much on this sort of thing. 195 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,120 Speaker 2: But if he gets started in the Apostolic Faith church 196 00:09:54,280 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 2: in Toronto, that is kind of a separate thing. And 197 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: the Apostolic Faith movement is a strict fundamentalist Pinecot sect 198 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: that originates actually in Los Angeles, right It gets its 199 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 2: start kind of in a Hollywood at the end of 200 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:10,640 Speaker 2: the like right at the start of the nineteen hundreds 201 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:12,680 Speaker 2: into the eighteen hundreds, start of the nineteen hundreds. And 202 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 2: this is there's like a wave of different evangelical Christian 203 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,560 Speaker 2: revivals that sweep and they often do start in the 204 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: West Coast for all of its sort of reputation is 205 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: like a progressive haven. This is a thing that occurs 206 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 2: at the start of the nineteen hundreds. It occurs like 207 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:30,280 Speaker 2: in the mid century, it occurs after the Hippie movement, right, 208 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: Like it's it's this constant place where you get these 209 00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:37,080 Speaker 2: sort of a static evangelical movements that like rise up 210 00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: and they often will kind of sweep north in then 211 00:10:39,440 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 2: east from Los Angeles. 212 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 3: OK, have you ever considered getting into it? 213 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:47,640 Speaker 2: I mean I kind of was as a kid, right 214 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 2: a little bit. I guess like I was sort of 215 00:10:52,520 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 2: I came out of the sect of the watch mc 216 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 2: call it the fake Catholic to the watch McCall, yeah, 217 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: what the fuck are we? What do we call this? 218 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 2: Everyone's shouting. Who knows what I mean by fake Catholics. 219 00:11:05,280 --> 00:11:09,160 Speaker 2: They're now the part of the African Anglican Church. But 220 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 2: we started out as this like kind of sect that 221 00:11:12,320 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: was sort of like Catholicism light. And then my church 222 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: left because they made a gay guy in California a 223 00:11:18,600 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 2: minister and that was or a bishop, and that was 224 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 2: not cool with a lot of people. 225 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 3: I thought you were just like, they made a gay 226 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: guy and so the. 227 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 2: No, no, no no, they let a gay guy be 228 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:29,960 Speaker 2: a bishop and that was a real problem for the 229 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: guy who ran my church. So we had like news 230 00:11:32,360 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 2: cameras and shit at our church in Plano. It was 231 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 2: all deal. But this is a little bit of like 232 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 2: a different thing. It's called the Azusa Street Revival that 233 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 2: gives a start to the Apostolic faith movement that is 234 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:49,080 Speaker 2: going to wind up probably being the church that Kevin Smith, 235 00:11:49,160 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 2: the other one gets involved in, was started by a 236 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,880 Speaker 2: lady called Florence Crawford, and it's part of this wave 237 00:11:56,920 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: of evangelical revivals that sweeps la from nineteen oh sixty 238 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,160 Speaker 2: nights fifteen, and it's characterized, like all Pentecostal revivals, by 239 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:06,880 Speaker 2: these acts of like a parent mass mania. So you'll 240 00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 2: get these groups of people who attend a preaching session 241 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 2: and they'll start babbling in tongues together and like having 242 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 2: what look like seizures where they're like twitching around on 243 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 2: the ground and shouting in fake languages. And this kind 244 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: of mania that spreads contagiously is a big part of 245 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 2: the movement, right. And so a mission comes out of 246 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:28,920 Speaker 2: this on Azuza Street, which is why it's called the 247 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,719 Speaker 2: Azuza Street Revival, and they start a newspaper called The 248 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 2: Apostolic Faith that begins circulating, and this lady Crawford, Florence Crawford, 249 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: is a part of it. 250 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:37,440 Speaker 1: Now. 251 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:39,400 Speaker 2: The guy who'd kind of founded the movement was named 252 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 2: William Seymour, and he makes Crawford like the director of 253 00:12:43,120 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 2: state level efforts to bring more churches into the fold, 254 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 2: and they wind up having a power struggle, right because 255 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:52,240 Speaker 2: Crawford is kind of looking to steer the ministry in 256 00:12:52,280 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 2: her own direction, and this leads to like a civil 257 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: war within the movement, and she winds up splitting and 258 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 2: forming the Apostolic Faith Church and none other than Portland, Oregon. 259 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 2: Classic story. If you get kicked out of LA, move 260 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,280 Speaker 2: up to Portland. You know, many such cases, including several 261 00:13:09,280 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 2: people on this podcast. 262 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:11,680 Speaker 5: I don't know what you're talking about. 263 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, we get rent out of town, you come up 264 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,800 Speaker 2: here to start your cult. Of course, whom's among us? 265 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:21,199 Speaker 2: Whom's to among us? 266 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, when your cult's too crazy for LA. 267 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 2: Right, right, time to go to Portland. 268 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:27,040 Speaker 3: Time to Portland. 269 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's beautiful in its own way. So shit 270 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 2: spreads from there. Once you're in Portland, you're not all 271 00:13:33,840 --> 00:13:37,240 Speaker 2: that far from Canada, and pretty soon the AFC is 272 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:39,960 Speaker 2: affiliating with Like I mean, I think there's like twenty 273 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,839 Speaker 2: four hundred affiliated churches around the world today, But they 274 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: move up to Canada pretty quickly, and they wind up 275 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 2: setting up shop in Toronto in like nineteen forty three, 276 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 2: which is when a Canadian named Stanley Hancock founds an 277 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 2: Apostolic Faith newsletter in the city. Here's how the organization 278 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: he established, which Kevin is probably winds up joining, describes 279 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: its founding. After reading an Apostolic Faith paper. Stanley Hancock 280 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 2: received his baptism and was banned from church. In nineteen 281 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: forty three, he and others started the first Apostolic Faith 282 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: church in Canada. Now there are eleven and the Apostolic 283 00:14:13,120 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 2: Faith Church. It falls under this whiter umbrella of charismatic Christianity, right, 284 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 2: which is a chunk of Protestantism, who believes in brief 285 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 2: Number one, the Holy Spirit can and does directly enter 286 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 2: people to change them and thus change the world. And 287 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: number two, through this method, by sending the Holy Spirit 288 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 2: into people, God bestows gifts upon them like prophecy and healing. 289 00:14:36,560 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: He can like spontaneously heal your injuries by sending the 290 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 2: Holy Spirit into you. And number three, and this is 291 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: the most important part of charismatic Christianity. It's a lot 292 00:14:45,080 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 2: of fun to writhe around on the ground and pretend 293 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,840 Speaker 2: to speak in a fake language. People love it. 294 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: Right. 295 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 2: You could just take acid, you know, at a py 296 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 2: trance festival or whatever to get the same experience. But 297 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 2: they didn't have sy trance back then. We just didn't 298 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 2: have the technology, nor did they have acid. Really, I 299 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 2: don't know if my side trans jokes are gonna land 300 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 2: with anyone less than thirty seven years old. Kids, I'll 301 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 2: probably listen to a hundred gets while you take your drugs. 302 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 3: Now, no trans is. 303 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 2: Oh, is it back? Did it come back? Thank God 304 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 2: a Betha was really suffering. It'll be fine, Yeah, yeah, excellent. 305 00:15:23,240 --> 00:15:26,120 Speaker 2: So Pentecostals are again part of this. And when I 306 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 2: talk about the Pentecostal Church, like, these guys are part 307 00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:33,000 Speaker 2: of the charismatic movement, but there's divisions within Charismatic Christianity 308 00:15:33,040 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 2: based on like do you believe speaking in tongues is 309 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,360 Speaker 2: a necessary precursor to being baptized? Do you have to 310 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,960 Speaker 2: prove the Holy Spirit has entered you right or not? 311 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:43,560 Speaker 2: So it's kind of like a whiskey bourbon sort of deal. 312 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 2: Pentecostals are all part of the Charismatic movement, but the 313 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 2: Charismatic movement isn't just Pentecostals right now. One thing all 314 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 2: these churches have in common is that they're always sort 315 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 2: of scouting for young men with what the rest of 316 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 2: us might call strong cult leaders vibes. You know, we 317 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 2: didn't have TikTok or like streaming back then, so as 318 00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,840 Speaker 2: someone with those vibes couldn't just start a media career 319 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 2: like they had, they pretty much like getting involved in 320 00:16:11,760 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 2: a church or like Dianetics was basically their best option, 321 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: you know, in the mid century. And Kevin though, comes 322 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: up in this period right before the Internet's gonna really 323 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: take off, and he gets scouted at around age seventeen 324 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 2: by this community. On the brief autobiography for one of 325 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 2: his now scrubb social media accounts, he claims at the 326 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: age of seventeen he was sent to thirty three countries 327 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 2: within two years as a profit to the Nations. And 328 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 2: this is probably true that like once they figure out 329 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 2: this kid's got the gift of gab, and you can 330 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 2: kind of set him up in front of any church 331 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: you want, and he'll keep them entertained and giving money, 332 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 2: donating money for a couple of hours. You fly him 333 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 2: all around, right, you put him up, he's like crashing 334 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: in churches and whatnot around the world. But you fly 335 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 2: him around and he's both building his own kind of platform, 336 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 2: but he's also raising money for the wider organization and 337 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: for each of these individual churches, and this is a 338 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:09,880 Speaker 2: whole industry, right. This is like the charismatic pastor industrial 339 00:17:09,920 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: complex pretty much, right, which is what like Marjo documents 340 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:16,680 Speaker 2: and why I recommend watching that documentary. So he's good 341 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,000 Speaker 2: at preaching to crowds and gathering followers, and it would 342 00:17:20,040 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 2: have been a cinch for him to raise money for 343 00:17:21,960 --> 00:17:24,600 Speaker 2: mission trips and even convince the leaders of his church 344 00:17:24,680 --> 00:17:26,360 Speaker 2: to pay for him to go and preach the gospel. 345 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 2: He claims that he was ordained at age eighteen by 346 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 2: an organization called the National Evangelists for Canada, and I 347 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,360 Speaker 2: can't find any evidence that this group exists. People lie 348 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:39,560 Speaker 2: about this all the time. But also the reporting for 349 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 2: this comes from a Jamaican news site, and it's based 350 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: on claims made by Kevin and based on just the 351 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 2: differences in dialects spoken. It's possible that this is a 352 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: real organization. They just gave kind of a name based 353 00:17:53,320 --> 00:17:55,800 Speaker 2: on sort of the differences in dialects that made sense 354 00:17:55,840 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: to them. But that doesn't directly correspond with what the 355 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,320 Speaker 2: organization is called in Canada. Right, there's some organizations with 356 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: similar names. I'm not sure. I don't doubt that he 357 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 2: was ordained in some Pentecostal organization or another. It's not 358 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 2: like being a priest in the Catholic Church, where you 359 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 2: have to go through school. Somebody just decides to ordain you. 360 00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:16,879 Speaker 2: When you're ordained and you get maybe a piece of 361 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,280 Speaker 2: paper or whatever, it's very easy. It's like my experience 362 00:18:20,320 --> 00:18:23,600 Speaker 2: with becoming a judge. There you go, yeah, there you go. 363 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 2: His denomination again, there's no seminary degree required, no qualifications. 364 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,720 Speaker 2: The Walris notes that Kevin himself claims, and I'm talking 365 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 2: about a new site when I say that, claims that 366 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,879 Speaker 2: Kevin says that ministers are qualified as ministers when they 367 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 2: feel the call of God on their life, and that's 368 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:43,720 Speaker 2: pretty consistent in this community. For his part, Kevin would 369 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:45,919 Speaker 2: claim that he was around eighteen or nineteen when his 370 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 2: grandfather first saw some of the early preaching he'd done 371 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 2: and during a phone call, informed Kevin that he was 372 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: a prophet. And I'm gonna play you with video of 373 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 2: his excellency, doctor Kevin Osmith discussing this conversation with his 374 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:01,919 Speaker 2: grand father. Because it's about time you get an idea 375 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 2: of how this guy sounds and talks. 376 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:07,959 Speaker 6: I'm talking about I'm eighteen nineteen in terming the grandpa 377 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 6: And he said, but you are a prophet. I said, Grandpa, 378 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 6: how do you know I'm a prophet? 379 00:19:12,760 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: Who told you? 380 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 6: Ah, grandson? I said, Grandpa, and not coming after phone 381 00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:19,120 Speaker 6: until you explain to me how you know I'm a prophet. 382 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:22,919 Speaker 6: He said, you're preaching your tapes I have and I 383 00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 6: listened to them. I know what a prophet is. 384 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,320 Speaker 4: And he said, you are an annanted man of God, 385 00:19:31,080 --> 00:19:35,479 Speaker 4: my grandfather. Who I thought, there mother, He said, lod 386 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 4: I have that sin, but God opens my understanding to 387 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 4: know who come out of my generations. 388 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,160 Speaker 6: Your mona is to give your handless, and you are. 389 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:50,399 Speaker 4: Pont to get profet, and you shall go to it. 390 00:19:50,640 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 4: He set no. 391 00:19:51,680 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 3: Level of which. 392 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 2: Ralph shall ever stop. 393 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 5: What a fun guy, all right, just making some points? 394 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:01,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, make it some points. No level of witchcraft will 395 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 2: stop you. This is something I tell our podcasters very regularly. 396 00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,359 Speaker 3: He looks a little more like the other Kevin Smith 397 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 3: than I expected. 398 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:13,959 Speaker 2: Yeah, finally I use for Ai cut him into all 399 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: the Jay and Silent Bob movies. 400 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, he looks a little like Silent Bob. Like I'm surprised. 401 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:25,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, not very silent, though distinctly loud, Bob speaking of 402 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 2: things that are distinctly loud. 403 00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,439 Speaker 7: But like sometimes that's super true because the volume of 404 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:35,679 Speaker 7: some of the auto ads are crazy loud for no 405 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 7: reason and we have no control over it. 406 00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, anyway, here's some ads and we're back. 407 00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:49,840 Speaker 5: So back again. 408 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're back again. Let's keep talking about the other 409 00:20:53,600 --> 00:20:56,800 Speaker 2: Kevin Smith. Legally, I have to really emphasize it's the 410 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: other one. Now, that right up, and the Toronto Caribbean 411 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 2: Newspaper continues. He boasts of the fact that he was 412 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,720 Speaker 2: the youngest Jamaican born bishop in Jamaica's church history. Kevin 413 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:11,719 Speaker 2: completed a Bachelor of Theology degree, a doctorate degree from 414 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 2: Vision International University in Ramona, California, and a Doctor of 415 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: Ministry from Mount Olive Bible Institute and Seminary in Toronto, Canada. 416 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 2: He was a licensed counselor and certified psychotherapist. And that 417 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 2: all sounds very impressive. I can verify some of this, 418 00:21:28,000 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 2: but the stuff I can verify doesn't matter. I have 419 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 2: no idea if he was the youngest Jamaican more born 420 00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 2: bishop in Jamaica's church history, because again, this is not 421 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,399 Speaker 2: like the Catholic Church, where like a bishop is a 422 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:42,159 Speaker 2: real position. You can just call yourself a bishop, or 423 00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 2: you can convince a friend to call you a bishop, 424 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,240 Speaker 2: and then you're a bishop, right, Like, it's not difficult, 425 00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 2: That is so true. 426 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 7: Bishop Molly, m m yeah, come on, Bishop Sophie, Yes, 427 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 7: Bishop Molly, Bishop Sophie. 428 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,240 Speaker 2: As Look, the pope is a Robert. I think that 429 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:02,359 Speaker 2: means I get splash over pope power. I'm making some 430 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,640 Speaker 2: fucking secret cardinals. 431 00:22:03,960 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 5: Just a sprinkle of poping. 432 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,720 Speaker 2: I watched, I watched fucking conclave. I know that I 433 00:22:10,800 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 2: have the power to make secret cardinals that can just 434 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,640 Speaker 2: pop out at any time. You might be a cardinal 435 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 2: listening right now. You have no way of knowing until 436 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 2: you like walk into a Catholic church and demand their 437 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 2: secret hidden gold, which I assume every Catholic church has 438 00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:27,439 Speaker 2: not an expert on the religion that I'm pope of. 439 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:29,760 Speaker 3: So I'm gonna find out where the gold is. 440 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, go find out. Get in there. Now. These institutes 441 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 2: that he claims to have fancy degrees from are like 442 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 2: real but also not right, because this is like whenever 443 00:22:41,119 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 2: you hear a cult leader be like, I'm a doctorate 444 00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 2: in this. I'm a therapist in this. It's always some 445 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:49,160 Speaker 2: kind of fake and there's a whole industry in creating 446 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:53,560 Speaker 2: fake churches for like evangelical ministers to claim that they've 447 00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 2: got fancy and impressive degrees. Reporters from Jamaica Observer called 448 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 2: Vision University to see if Kevin and had received a 449 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: bachelor and a doctorate there and quote. We were told 450 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 2: that such information could only be provided in response to 451 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 2: a written request, and only students are allowed to make 452 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:13,240 Speaker 2: that request. Now these guys had led. Yeah, they can't 453 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,119 Speaker 2: even verify that, or they won't. But the news reaches 454 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,359 Speaker 2: out to these guys after he cuts a bunch of 455 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: people's throats in a church service, right, So Vision International 456 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 2: doesn't want to claim him. So I decided to just 457 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 2: like look into the school to see, like is this 458 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,640 Speaker 2: even a real school? Like is there a chance anyone 459 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:34,840 Speaker 2: has ever earned a real degree from Vision International University? And, 460 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,760 Speaker 2: at the risk of getting sued, I think the answer 461 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: is no. If you go to their website, they bragg 462 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 2: that you can quote earn an affordable Christian ministry or 463 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,040 Speaker 2: business degree on your time, and their motto is taking 464 00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: the whole world to the whole world. Now, I'll let 465 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: Sophie scroll through the website while we discussed this fine 466 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 2: institution in more detail so you could get a look 467 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 2: at Yeah, save time and money on your college degree. 468 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 2: That always is the first a real college. Yeah, they've 469 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: got like a lot of good stock photos. There's like 470 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 2: a young black lady punching the sky defiantly with her 471 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 2: diploma and the claim that Vision International holds prestigious international 472 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: accreditation from ASIC. Right now, you're wondering what that is, right, 473 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 2: prestigious international accredit. That must mean it's a real school. Right. 474 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 2: It says it's prestigious, So that's got to be legitimately accredited, right. Well, 475 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 2: I looked into it because I thought that was odd. 476 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 2: People who are accredited from legitimate organizations never have to 477 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 2: tell you that the accrediting organization is legitimate. That's the 478 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 2: first sign that someone's not part of a legitimate accrediting organization. 479 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 3: HARVARDOK, as a graduate of Podcast University, I don't know 480 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 3: what you're talking about. 481 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:48,399 Speaker 2: Great movie than you see you. 482 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 5: I really enjoy the stock photo of this guy. 483 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy holding two degrees aren't two respected degrees 484 00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 2: in just. 485 00:24:56,920 --> 00:24:59,280 Speaker 5: Two years and it looks like he's like floating on 486 00:24:59,359 --> 00:24:59,800 Speaker 5: a cloud. 487 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,000 Speaker 2: If you go to like Harvard's website, Harvard number one 488 00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: will not give you two degrees in two years, but 489 00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 2: doesn't have to tell you the degrees respected because it's 490 00:25:09,000 --> 00:25:12,280 Speaker 2: a real school. And even like you go to UTD, 491 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: right where I briefly went before dropping out, they never 492 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 2: had to brag on their website that they were accredited 493 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,679 Speaker 2: from a real organization because you just know it's a 494 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: real school. So I googled Vision International University fake and 495 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 2: the second search result was the Wikipedia page for list 496 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,840 Speaker 2: of unaccredited institutions of higher Learning, which seemed odd because 497 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 2: they ensured us that they were accredited by someone real. Now, 498 00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: the first result when I looked into that was someone 499 00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:41,960 Speaker 2: on the forum for degree info dot com back in 500 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: two thousand and two asking is this a good school 501 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,360 Speaker 2: or a fraud? And someone pointed out that like, well, 502 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 2: they offer a master's in creation science, which means they 503 00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,959 Speaker 2: fall under a religious exemption in California, which is not 504 00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:56,280 Speaker 2: accreditation right. It means California can't stop them from giving 505 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 2: out religious degrees, but they're not approved by the state 506 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,639 Speaker 2: as like a real college, you just can't stop someone 507 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 2: from giving out degrees with titles like Master of Theology 508 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: or Doctor of Ministry. But they're not allowed to give 509 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 2: out secular degrees like an MS a Master of Science. 510 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:15,080 Speaker 2: And they claim to right. And one reason I'm interested 511 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: in this is because there's an attempt within sort of 512 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 2: this chunk of the evangelical movement. One reason this is 513 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:22,920 Speaker 2: interesting is that there's an attempt within this chunk of 514 00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 2: the evangelical movement to create people who can get jobs 515 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: as science teachers, right because they have MS degrees and 516 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 2: then teach in Christian secondary schools about stuff like creationism. Right. 517 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 2: So that's what Vision International is doing. But they're not 518 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,000 Speaker 2: accredited to give out an MS in the state of California. 519 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 2: So then I looked into that ASIK accreditation, right, which 520 00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,400 Speaker 2: is why they're how they claim to be a legitimate 521 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 2: university ASIC. ASIK stands for the Accreditation Service for International Colleges. 522 00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 2: And this is a real organization. It's a private educational 523 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,680 Speaker 2: agency in the United Kingdom that is literally based out 524 00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: of a semi detached duplex residential property and stocked it 525 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:07,639 Speaker 2: on teas which doubles is the residential address for its creators. 526 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 2: So great, very legitimate organization run out of the home 527 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:15,080 Speaker 2: of the people who run it, just like this podcast 528 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,760 Speaker 2: and ASEX whole business is accrediting private UK colleges for 529 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:23,600 Speaker 2: visa purposes, and they are recognized by the UK government 530 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: and this capacity, but they've been repeatedly criticized for being 531 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,800 Speaker 2: what's called a run around accreditor. And another poster from 532 00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 2: a different threat and Degree Info explains the key difference 533 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: is that accreditation in the UK appears vastly different from 534 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,520 Speaker 2: accreditation in the US. If your UK university has a 535 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 2: royal charter, then that's all that really needs to operate. 536 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 2: Accreditation is wholly voluntary and doesn't confer degree granting authority 537 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 2: because that's not how degree granting authority is conferred in 538 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:51,760 Speaker 2: the UK. The issue with A six seems to be 539 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 2: that some of the schools accredited by them lack institutional 540 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,560 Speaker 2: accreditation or authority to award degrees in their respective country. 541 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 2: So Vision International is accredited through ASIK, but ASIK is 542 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:05,879 Speaker 2: not approved in the UK to accredit a school, it 543 00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: means a different thing than it does in the US. 544 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 2: They have no ability to grant degrees in the US, 545 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:12,920 Speaker 2: and they also don't really have the ability to grant 546 00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:15,680 Speaker 2: degrees that are recognized by the UK. It just means 547 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 2: that if you go here, you can get an educational 548 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,560 Speaker 2: visa in the UK. They're kind of playing with the 549 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: fact that the same word means different things in two countries. 550 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 2: Does that make sense? 551 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 3: Sure? 552 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 2: I fell down this wormhole for way too long trying 553 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,120 Speaker 2: to figure out how this fake college for Christian scam 554 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:33,960 Speaker 2: artist works. And so now you're all going to learn 555 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:34,359 Speaker 2: about it. 556 00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:36,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm gonna enroll. 557 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, get your degree for sure. Yes, of course, get 558 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 2: your Master of science. 559 00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 3: I'm gonna get two degrees. 560 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 2: This is double Fistingham. 561 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 5: Is this very classic you? You're like, I suffered, you 562 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 5: must suffer. That's you. That's very classic you. 563 00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:54,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, just doing with degrees what punk kids in the 564 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 2: early two thousands did with tall boys. 565 00:28:57,360 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 3: What you're doing with ZVS now. 566 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: What I'm doing with ZV right now. Yeah. So the 567 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:05,560 Speaker 2: poster then goes on to discuss Warnborough College in Ireland, 568 00:29:05,600 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 2: which is not a real college. It's not a recognized 569 00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 2: institute of learning in Ireland but pretends to be because 570 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,640 Speaker 2: it has an ASIK accreditation. The US Department of Education 571 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:18,480 Speaker 2: does not recognize ASIK accreditation, although they might in the future, 572 00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: given where we're headed. 573 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 5: Every time you say ask I. 574 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,480 Speaker 2: Think of shoes, is that a shoebrand, Sophie, it certainly is. Yeah, 575 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,320 Speaker 2: that's a more legitimate company than the ASIK of the UK. 576 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 7: They're like good shoes, like good quality, like for your 577 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:32,840 Speaker 7: feet and whatnot. 578 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480 Speaker 2: Well, this is not a good quality accreditation organization. In 579 00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,200 Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, extensive reporting showed that there's some 580 00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: very shady details about how ASIK got recognized in the UK. 581 00:29:43,960 --> 00:29:46,280 Speaker 2: A journalist named Andrew Norfolk wrote an article on the 582 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 2: matter with the title man given job of closing bogus 583 00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: colleges was sacked by university and the man who's the 584 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 2: founder of ASIK is Maurice Dimmock, who, along with his wife, 585 00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: lives in the detached duplex that doubles his A six headquarters. 586 00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,600 Speaker 2: He had been director of international operations for a real school, 587 00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 2: Northumbria University, until two thousand and three, when he was 588 00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 2: fired for reasons neither he or the school will ever discuss, 589 00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 2: which I'm sure means good things always not shady. When 590 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:15,600 Speaker 2: your school won't even tell anyone why they fired you, 591 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 2: I'm sure no crimes were committed. 592 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:18,720 Speaker 5: Wow. 593 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: Somehow, the UK Home Office ignored numerous concerns and complaints 594 00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,680 Speaker 2: about this guy and gave his company the job of 595 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 2: determining which private colleges were real for visa purposes, and 596 00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: ASIKA credited one hundred and eighty schools in its first 597 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 2: two years, The Times reports. Among them is a Manchester 598 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:36,720 Speaker 2: college that The Times exposed last month as the front 599 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:39,680 Speaker 2: for an immigration scam, which helped one thousand fake students 600 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 2: enter or stay in Britain. Another in London issued more 601 00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: than twenty five hundred bogus postgraduate diplomas in two months 602 00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 2: last year, earning its owners, who have fled the country 603 00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:53,280 Speaker 2: and estimated five million pounds. So great organization, very real school. 604 00:30:53,400 --> 00:30:55,720 Speaker 2: That's what we can say is that Kevin Smith gets 605 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,880 Speaker 2: his doctorate from an entirely real university. Again, it's important 606 00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: to discuss this, even though we're getting a little bit 607 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,920 Speaker 2: off topic from the other Kevin Smith, because every one 608 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 2: of these abusive Christian cult leaders you come across today 609 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 2: has some kind of PhD or other fancy sounding degree 610 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: from one of these fake schools. There's a whole ton 611 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:18,080 Speaker 2: of them. One of the claims I found is that 612 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,240 Speaker 2: Vision International and around two this and two was show 613 00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,479 Speaker 2: claiming to have four thousand campuses in more than one 614 00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:26,160 Speaker 2: hundred countries, and to the best of my knowledge, Vision 615 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: has thirty full in part time employees, which it's hard 616 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 2: to keep four thousand campuses operative on thirty employees. And 617 00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,800 Speaker 2: it kind of seems like they're just counting everyone who 618 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 2: registered online as a campus, like you're a campus for 619 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,880 Speaker 2: Vision International University. If you log on with your laptop, 620 00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: whatever coffee shop you're in as a campus. I love that. 621 00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,640 Speaker 2: I need to start a fake college, like Sophie, we 622 00:31:49,720 --> 00:31:51,320 Speaker 2: got to get in on this fucking racket. 623 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 5: We're not doing that. We're not. 624 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 2: There's a lot of money. 625 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,600 Speaker 5: And I go in ful tate. I'm sorry, Mollie. 626 00:31:57,600 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: Do you like the sound of Professor Lambert? You can 627 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 2: be given outates in like forty five minutes, you. 628 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:04,520 Speaker 5: Know, sorry, that's Bishop, doctor Lambert. 629 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 3: Come on, I'm a bishop. 630 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 2: Doctor, Bishop Lambert. Yeah, you could give out what kind 631 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:11,960 Speaker 2: of degree would you want to hand out to people? 632 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 2: What would you feel confident giving like in terms of doctorates? 633 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 3: I mean whatever they'll give me money for, right, That's 634 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 3: how we're going to do this scam. 635 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean college scam college. I'd like to 636 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 2: make surgeons like that feels that feels satisfying to know 637 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 2: I'd created a lot of surgeons are who are going 638 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: out there cutting into people. You know, as long as 639 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: I get to a non extradition country very quickly after 640 00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 2: handing out four thousand or so diplomas is crib. So 641 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 2: I should also note that initially, Vision University was an 642 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 2: offshoot of a Pentecostal school in Tasmania founded by an 643 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 2: Australian pastor named kin Chant. And I just mentioned that 644 00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 2: because I found a photo of him that I have 645 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 2: to show you guys. 646 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 5: It's really kind of funny. 647 00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:59,440 Speaker 2: Hey, I can that mustache. It's beautiful, all right, he 648 00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:03,360 Speaker 2: looks cool. He does look cool. That's a sweet ass mustache. 649 00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 5: And Chant is a great name. 650 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,600 Speaker 2: Can Chant too solid name? I'm happy with him. 651 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 3: I mean Chant, it's right in the name. 652 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,720 Speaker 2: Yeah right, Yeah, it's perfect name for an evangelical pastor, 653 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: especially with a soup strainer like that. The acoustics had 654 00:33:17,320 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 2: to be great, you know, it would act like having 655 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 2: like baffling panels on your ceiling. I trust him, Yeah, 656 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,600 Speaker 2: he seems legitimate. So I said we'd get back to 657 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 2: Kevin Smith the bad one, and I meant it, but 658 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 2: I also kept running across funny stuff about this school 659 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 2: that I didn't know where to stop. According to the 660 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety four edition of Name It and Frame It 661 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 2: by Stephen Levkoff, which is a book about fake colleges, 662 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,200 Speaker 2: Vision Quote also offers a special additional ten percent tuition 663 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: reduction for students to enroll within the next thirty days, 664 00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 2: which is a real sign that someone's got an actual 665 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 2: college going. Real colleges give you bonuses like that, right, 666 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,520 Speaker 2: sat up in thirty days and get ten percent off. Okay, 667 00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 2: Now back to Kevin for realsies. In addition to his 668 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,280 Speaker 2: definitely fake degree, he claimed to attend Tyndale University, which 669 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,239 Speaker 2: is a real and respected private Evangelical Christian university. He 670 00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: also claims to have a Doctorate of Ministry from Mount 671 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: Olive Bible Institute in Toronto, which seems to be about 672 00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 2: as real as Vision but has a very similar name 673 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,680 Speaker 2: to an actual college that's in the United States, which 674 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: I think is the point and laying out Kevin's educational history. 675 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,440 Speaker 2: The Walras, who is again a Canadian news site, noted 676 00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,120 Speaker 2: while he has referred to himself as a registered clinical 677 00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,400 Speaker 2: counselor and sought after holistic psychotherapist. He has never been 678 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 2: registered with a College of Registered Psychotherapists in Ontario, so 679 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,880 Speaker 2: he's a Christian psychotherapist, which is different from being a 680 00:34:41,920 --> 00:34:46,319 Speaker 2: psychotherapist in the way that any medical establishment recognizes. Now 681 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 2: while he's getting all these fake degrees and maybe one 682 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,640 Speaker 2: real degree in addition to several other questionable certifications, Smith 683 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,120 Speaker 2: grew up and seems to have made his living operating 684 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:58,080 Speaker 2: a ministry in Toronto and traveling around the world to 685 00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: give speeches at different churches. Sometime around the turn of 686 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 2: the millennium, he found his own ministry, which he calls 687 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 2: CHOS Deliverance International, and the initials Chaos is just the 688 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 2: initials of his name. On August twenty second, two thousand 689 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:14,400 Speaker 2: and six, he returns from one of his overseas preaching 690 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:17,560 Speaker 2: trips to the UK. The Walrus writes quote Smith was 691 00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 2: jet lagged and lonely, craving to spend time with someone 692 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 2: besides his brother. I wanted, you know, emotional company. Smith 693 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 2: would later recall as per court documents, so he perused 694 00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:28,520 Speaker 2: online ads for escorts and reached out to a man 695 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:31,000 Speaker 2: for his services Matt, whose real name is under a 696 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: court ordered publication ban, arrived at Smith's home around ten 697 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 2: thirty one evening. I would need him to be as 698 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,000 Speaker 2: inconspicuous as possible because I lived straight and I'm a Christian. 699 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,719 Speaker 2: Smith would recall there was a conflict happening inside of 700 00:35:41,760 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 2: me in essence to what I was going to do 701 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:48,040 Speaker 2: or not do. Now what he did, according to Matt's allegations, 702 00:35:48,080 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 2: is sexually assault Matt, who goes to the police. The 703 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:54,359 Speaker 2: next day, Smith is arrested and charged. He would later 704 00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 2: claim that Canadian police tried to use his Jamaican ancestry 705 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:01,280 Speaker 2: in the local stigma against homosexuality in Jamaica again Saint him, 706 00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:03,439 Speaker 2: and he claims he told them gays are just people 707 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,960 Speaker 2: who need redirection, which does do a great job of 708 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,920 Speaker 2: making me more sympathetic to his case. But he's been 709 00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:12,759 Speaker 2: accused basically of calling this guy in and then sexually 710 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 2: assaulting him. Right now, the case these allegations against him 711 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,959 Speaker 2: wind through the Canadian court system for the next several 712 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 2: months and the next year. In early two thousand and seven, 713 00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:25,000 Speaker 2: he gets married and possibly as a way to kind 714 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 2: of distract from the fact that this is really bad 715 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 2: pr to his ministry. He's either eighteen or twenty five 716 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:34,360 Speaker 2: when he gets married. I found different things on different 717 00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: news sites. It kind of depends on whether or not 718 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,960 Speaker 2: he was actually born in nineteen eighty two or not. 719 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,960 Speaker 2: Whatever the case, this marriage does not seem to have 720 00:36:42,000 --> 00:36:45,719 Speaker 2: really been like it certainly doesn't last. There's debate as 721 00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,000 Speaker 2: to whether or not it was legitimate. They very quickly split. 722 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 2: In the Walrus Rites, Smith's x's wife described him as 723 00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:54,440 Speaker 2: verbally abusive in someone who led about his private life. 724 00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,120 Speaker 2: He is not living an honest life, she would later recall. 725 00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 2: According to court records and the Toronto Caribbeans Report ADS, 726 00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 2: there have been allegations that his wife caught him having 727 00:37:03,600 --> 00:37:06,440 Speaker 2: sexual relations with men. She reported to senior ministers in 728 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,759 Speaker 2: the church organizations, but they denied it and there were 729 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,680 Speaker 2: no reprimand or consequences. So, you know, not a story 730 00:37:12,719 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 2: we've ever heard before anywhere else. Wow, powerful up and 731 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,640 Speaker 2: coming guy gets caught violating the tenets of his religion 732 00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:23,319 Speaker 2: for personal reasons and also violating a sex worker, and 733 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 2: it all gets smoothed over because hey, you know, he's 734 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 2: he brings in money. Probably shouldn't segue to ads with that, 735 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: but they also bring in money. 736 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:43,239 Speaker 5: Wow, use ads. Wow, we're back. 737 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 2: So I know the timeline is kind of screwy here. 738 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: When he gets married, how old he is? You know, 739 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 2: this is a guy who gives multiple versions of different 740 00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 2: stories and different news reports. I see give different things. 741 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,799 Speaker 2: I don't actually know what's subjectively the truth. I haven't 742 00:37:57,800 --> 00:38:01,560 Speaker 2: seen a birth certificate here. But you know, basically one 743 00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 2: of two things happens. Either he marries this lady to 744 00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 2: try to distract from the scandal, or they had been 745 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,360 Speaker 2: they'd get married and stay that way for years, but 746 00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,840 Speaker 2: she had seen signs that he was kind of living 747 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 2: a lie and eventually tries to report them. In either case, 748 00:38:15,920 --> 00:38:18,480 Speaker 2: the two of them split up and he goes on 749 00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:21,520 Speaker 2: trial later in two thousand and seven for sexual assault. 750 00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,400 Speaker 2: And this trial we can confirm absolutely happened, right. There's 751 00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 2: plenty of court records in Canada over it. During the trial, 752 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 2: Smith identifies himself as an international minister of religion who 753 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 2: had preached in three hundred different cities. He says, we 754 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 2: do crusades all around the world in churches and open 755 00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 2: fields and stadiums and things to that magnitude to preach 756 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 2: the gospel Smith's lawyer denied that anything non consensual had happened, 757 00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:47,600 Speaker 2: and under oath he claimed that Matt had tried to 758 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 2: extort him for money during a private religious counseling session. 759 00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 2: Quote the prosecutor in her closing argument shredded Smith's testimony. 760 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:57,800 Speaker 2: His life in his platform is a facade. She said. 761 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:01,280 Speaker 2: Mister Smith's reputation and his public persona are his primary concern, 762 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 2: and he will go to any extent to preserve that facade. 763 00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,240 Speaker 2: In the end, this judge found Smith guilty of sexual assault, 764 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:09,680 Speaker 2: sentencing him to six months in jail, followed by two 765 00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 2: months of probation. Mister Smith, it seems to be the 766 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,680 Speaker 2: judge said to quote, a parable might be viewed as 767 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: a wolf in sheep's clothing. 768 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:17,360 Speaker 5: Wow. 769 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's got it right here. She has definitely 770 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:26,000 Speaker 2: like locked this guy's number down. Unfortunately, she's going to 771 00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 2: be the last person to clock him for a while. 772 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 2: And he is going to basically as soon as he 773 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 2: splits up with his wife, flee the country, right, So 774 00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:36,920 Speaker 2: he leaves Canada for Jamaica. He breaches the terms of 775 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: his probation. He's supposed to attend counseling, and he's like no, 776 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 2: I'm just going to go back to Jamaica and start 777 00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:44,720 Speaker 2: a church there, and he's going to remain in Jamaica 778 00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 2: for the next six years where he starts a local 779 00:39:47,440 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 2: church and he burrows into the Pentecostal community and he 780 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 2: starts accruing clout followers and eventually wealth. So that's where 781 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 2: we are at the end of part one, and this 782 00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 2: is going to lead us to what I would describe 783 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 2: as a shock bloody conclusion to come in part two 784 00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 2: where this one ends is pretty fucking intense. But Molly, 785 00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 2: that's what we got for the start of this episode. 786 00:40:10,360 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: How you feeling as we sort of close out part one? 787 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 3: Uh, I truly don't know where this is going. 788 00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,439 Speaker 2: So a lot of people get in their throat slit. 789 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,919 Speaker 2: Oh no, yeah, yeah, I got weird number woild would 790 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: be anything higher than one. 791 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,719 Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, I guess let's find out. 792 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess, let's find out. And that's the episode. 793 00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:35,240 Speaker 5: We should plug. Jake Anerhan's new project. 794 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,759 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Jake's got a new podcast, Away Days. Check 795 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,160 Speaker 2: it out on wherever our podcasts exist. 796 00:40:42,760 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: They Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media. 797 00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:52,120 Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool 798 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:56,160 Speaker 1: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 799 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,400 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the 800 00:40:59,400 --> 00:41:03,520 Speaker 1: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday 801 00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,240 Speaker 1: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash 802 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: at Behind the Bastards