1 00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: Hey, are you welcome to stuff to blow your mind? 2 00:00:07,480 --> 00:00:09,799 Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,799 Speaker 1: it's Saturday. Time to venture into the vault, this time 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: with an episode about youth and aging. This is Eternal Youth, 5 00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: Part one, originally published January four. This is one of 6 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,760 Speaker 1: the episodes. I think we did a pair here where 7 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: we were sort of asking the question why animals age? Why? 8 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,720 Speaker 1: Why why not just stay young? Forever? Yeah? Youth like 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: diamonds in the sun, right, um, forever young Alphaville. Hopefully 10 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 1: I don't remember if I referenced that track uh in 11 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: these episodes, but I hope I did. I think you 12 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: referenced it more recently when pointing out how creepy the 13 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: lyrics are that they they sound like a serial killer. Note, yeah, 14 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: they're they're they're super creepy. That track is the reason 15 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,200 Speaker 1: I didn't share my You know a lot of people 16 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:56,320 Speaker 1: are sharing, uh, these curated lists of what tracks they 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:58,960 Speaker 1: listened to the most in the previous year. That was 18 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: your number one? It was, it was, it was, it 19 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:03,440 Speaker 1: was up there way too much, and I have to 20 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 1: I can only share that with people if I can 21 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,559 Speaker 1: also explain to them that I have a very creepy 22 00:01:08,600 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 1: interpretation of the song and therefore me listening to Forever 23 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: Young is like most people listening to death metal. I'm 24 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: gonna see you and raise you there because the other 25 00:01:17,240 --> 00:01:20,680 Speaker 1: Forever Young also has creepy lyrics if you listen to them. 26 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:23,479 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, this is the Bob Dylan r. Yeah yeah yeah, 27 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: just go listen, you'll you'll see. All right, Well, let's 28 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: jump right into it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your 29 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:41,200 Speaker 1: Mind from how stuff dot com. Hey you, welcome to 30 00:01:41,240 --> 00:01:43,280 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb 31 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert, I want to ask 32 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 1: you about a Greek commit go for it. You know, 33 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: the myth of tiffan Us. This is not one that 34 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: I am am readily familiar with off stuff of my head. Well, 35 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:56,560 Speaker 1: it's one of those great ones with doomed lovers. Are 36 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: doomed lovers? Just fantastic? Yea? Is there? Does a god 37 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: show up the act particularly crappy towards mortals? Uh not. 38 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:05,880 Speaker 1: I don't know if it's on purpose. You do get 39 00:02:06,000 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: Zeus being a jerk, but he might be like he's 40 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: a jerk by accident. Or maybe he's a jerk on purpose. 41 00:02:11,800 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: It's kind of hard to tell, because being a jerk 42 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,720 Speaker 1: is kind of Zeus is default thing in general. Yeah, 43 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: Zeus in this myth acts kind of like the Monkeys 44 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 1: Paul and the classic short story, where you get the 45 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: wish but not quite in the way you wanted it. 46 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,239 Speaker 1: So here's how it goes. And this is the version 47 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 1: that's in the Homeric Hymn to Aphrodite. So the myth 48 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: involves the goddess aos Aus is the goddess of Dawn, 49 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 1: and she falls in love with a mortal man from 50 00:02:42,080 --> 00:02:46,079 Speaker 1: Troy named tiffan Us. And this is horrible, right, It's 51 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:47,959 Speaker 1: horrible for a goddess to fall in love with a 52 00:02:48,080 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: mortal because while the gods may live eternally, dining on 53 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:55,360 Speaker 1: the ambrosia and just going on into the future, of course, 54 00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: mortal people, as the name implies, will die. And she 55 00:02:59,320 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: hates this idea. She hates the idea that the man 56 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: she's fallen in love with will someday die while she 57 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: gets to go on living forever. She can't bear the 58 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: thought of it. So she goes to Zeus and she 59 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: makes a request, Well, you grant my lover Tiffanus eternal life, 60 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: and Zeus does it. Usually, you know, usually Zeus is 61 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:22,079 Speaker 1: a jerk, but here he's like, yes, yes, I will 62 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: do that for you. Aos. Well, maybe he was busy 63 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,600 Speaker 1: and he's just like, okay, yeah, I'm just go ahead 64 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 1: check this off the list because I've I've got this, uh, 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: this other torment in mind for another mortal. Right, don't 66 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 1: have time to be a jerk. Just bam, eternal life. 67 00:03:34,920 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: You will not perish and die like the other mortals. 68 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: But then it takes a dark turn. So let me 69 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: read from the translation of the Home Eric him to Aphrodite, 70 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:49,680 Speaker 1: and this is translated by Hugh Evelyn White. Quote. So 71 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: also golden throned Aos wrapped away Tiffanus, who was of 72 00:03:53,960 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: your race and like the deathless gods. And she went 73 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 1: to ask the dark clouded son of ChRI On knows 74 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: that he should be deathless and live eternally. And Zeus 75 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 1: bowed his head to her prayer and fulfilled her desire. Okay, 76 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: so he's granning the wish. Too simple, was queenly Aos. 77 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:16,240 Speaker 1: She thought not in her heart to ask youth for 78 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:20,360 Speaker 1: him and to strip him of the slough of deadly age. 79 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: So while he enjoyed the sweet flower of life, he 80 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: lived rapturously with golden throned Aos, the early born by 81 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: the streams of ocean at the ends of the earth. 82 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: But when the first gray hairs began to ripple from 83 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:39,440 Speaker 1: his comely head and noble chin, queenly Aos kept away 84 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: from his bed, though she cherished him in her house, 85 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: and nourished him with food and ambrosia, and gave him 86 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: rich clothing. But when loathsome old age pressed full upon him, 87 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 1: and he could not move nor lift his limbs. This 88 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,600 Speaker 1: seemed to her in her heart the best counsel. She 89 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,200 Speaker 1: laid him in a room and put to the shining doors. 90 00:05:00,680 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: There he babbles endlessly, and no more has strength at all, 91 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 1: such as once he had in his supple limbs. M Okay, well, 92 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: this makes me think Zeus probably just agreed to her request, 93 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: because all the gods know that mortals are going to 94 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: ask for immortality at some point or the other, and 95 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,640 Speaker 1: they're probably not going to phrase the question properly, and 96 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:22,680 Speaker 1: you should let them have it because it will teach 97 00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: them a lesson. Well, yeah, he'll learn when he's old 98 00:05:26,120 --> 00:05:30,400 Speaker 1: and babbling and decrepit. But cannot die. Yeah, because global 99 00:05:30,440 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: myth cycles are filled with stories of of immortality gone wrong. 100 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:39,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's either a wandering immortal who's doomed or 101 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: or lovers who you know, obtain a portion of immortality 102 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:46,960 Speaker 1: and it's mishandled. There's a there's a wonderful example of 103 00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:51,039 Speaker 1: this in in Chinese myth with the the Elixir of 104 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: Immortality and the and the Woman of the Moon. Oh 105 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: does it come back to bite her? Or come back 106 00:05:56,400 --> 00:05:58,720 Speaker 1: to bite the person who wants it? Um it gets 107 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: There are a few different versions of the tale, but essentially, 108 00:06:02,200 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, one person is immortal and the other is not. 109 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 1: That sort of thing, this this this mismatch that we 110 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: see president in the Greek tale as well. Man, why 111 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: are there so many myths and folk tales where people 112 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 1: get punished for wanting better than their lot in life? Well, 113 00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 1: because you can't have it, I mean, especially when it 114 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: comes to things like avoiding death and avoiding aging. You're 115 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: not gonna get it. So there's something refreshing about stories 116 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: in which people do get it and it backfires because 117 00:06:32,320 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: that way we think, oh, well, this this thing that 118 00:06:34,080 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 1: I cannot have is actually not that great. So thank goodness, 119 00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: I'm going to grow old and die. Yeah. I wonder 120 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,719 Speaker 1: if it makes you feel like you're not so bad off. 121 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,039 Speaker 1: It's like, well, I'm gonna die one day, but I 122 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,880 Speaker 1: could be like Tiffanous, and that's even worse. Exactly, So, 123 00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: I think the myth is sort of an embodiment of 124 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: this cruel fact about human nature. It's not just that, 125 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,080 Speaker 1: as they say in Bravos, all men must die, but 126 00:06:56,160 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: that all people must decline. I think warrensy On put 127 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: it best. He said time treats everybody like a fool. 128 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's the case. And no amount of lawyers, guns, 129 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: or money will get you out of this, that's right. 130 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: So on one hand, you've got the idea of death. 131 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 1: And death is a sort of unavoidable fact about biology 132 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: because living organisms are these finely tuned factories of chemical reactions, 133 00:07:21,520 --> 00:07:25,240 Speaker 1: and if you make substantial changes to the factory, say 134 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:28,320 Speaker 1: by jamming a rock through part of it, or biting 135 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: part of it off, or filling it up with parasites 136 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 1: that gum up all the gears, the factory isn't going 137 00:07:33,440 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 1: to work the same anymore. It might not work at all. 138 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: Were physical creatures were subject to physical disruption. So the 139 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: potential for death is unavoidable. It's sort of part of 140 00:07:43,840 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 1: what it means to be alive. But aging not quite 141 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: so much. This steady time correlated decline in our biological fitness. 142 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: Why does that have to happen? That's not physically inevitable 143 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: in same way that death is. Yes, and this is 144 00:08:03,560 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: going to be the question we're gonna be discussing in 145 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 1: this pair of episodes. Now, we do want to drive home. 146 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: We're not going to get as much into some of 147 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,920 Speaker 1: the mechanics of aging, like we're not going to get 148 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: into telomeres and telomerase and all and all of that, 149 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: although that's a wonderfully insightful topic onto itself. We're gonna 150 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:25,440 Speaker 1: be talking more about the these this sort of evolutionary 151 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,360 Speaker 1: function of aging, if it has one, right, aging is 152 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 1: something that has such a cost for the organisms that 153 00:08:31,440 --> 00:08:36,000 Speaker 1: undergo it, like tiffanus. What pays for it biologically? Why 154 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: does it exist? Now, to underscore the fact that aging 155 00:08:39,920 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: is not necessarily something that is inevitable, and especially not 156 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 1: aging as early as we do, we should maybe look 157 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 1: at some organisms that do not age in the same 158 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: way we do. Yeah, they're there are a number of organisms. 159 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 1: I'm sure a number of them come to to everyone's 160 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: mind here. You think of ancient hoary tortoise is stumbling 161 00:08:59,120 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: across the the ground, right, or perhaps your mind turns 162 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 1: with the greenland shark. Will come back to that one 163 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:08,400 Speaker 1: in a second. But really one of the more insightful 164 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:12,599 Speaker 1: examples here is the hydra, or at least individuals in 165 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,439 Speaker 1: the Hydra genus. So you're talking about the monster that 166 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: gets its head cut off and grows two more. No, 167 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: as much as I do love the mythical hydra, now 168 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:25,079 Speaker 1: these are the natural world. Hydra's tiny tentacled creatures that 169 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: need to continue to wow scientists because they have a 170 00:09:28,200 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: number of just wonderfully bizarre and monstrous capability. So they 171 00:09:33,400 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: can reproduce through a sexual butting. They have these mouths 172 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: that open up kind of like wounds in their body 173 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: and then close. There's some fabulous videos of them doing that. 174 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,720 Speaker 1: It looks like you're staring into the mouth of hell. 175 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:50,400 Speaker 1: And they have this seemingly natural inability to grow, grow old, 176 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: and die of natural causes. They boast low mortality rates 177 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: throughout their lives, and apparently this is according to when 178 00:09:58,720 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: Dr Owen Jones from the University of Southern Denmark. He 179 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,360 Speaker 1: has claimed that it would take four hundred years for 180 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:09,720 Speaker 1: of a hydro population to die of natural causes in 181 00:10:09,760 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: the lab. Wow, well, well that's a hardy species. Yeah, 182 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: So let me let me back some of that up 183 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,200 Speaker 1: here with with some more the facts about the life 184 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,079 Speaker 1: of the hydra, so their fertility rates remain constant their 185 00:10:22,200 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 1: entire lives, which, as will discuss is is pretty unique. 186 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 1: And according to Pomono College biology researcher Professor Daniel Martinez, 187 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: he has repeatedly found no evidence of sinescence in laboratory 188 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: caddled hydra. Yeah, and even goes so far as to 189 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: state that an individual hydra can live forever under the 190 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: right laboratory circumstances. Now, of course, that's the catch, right. 191 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 1: The hydro's natural environment offers sufficient hostilities to make natural 192 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 1: death by old age and impossibility. You got disease, predators, 193 00:10:57,800 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: water contamination. These are the things that usually all a 194 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: hydra off in due time, and likewise, scientists have yet 195 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:07,959 Speaker 1: to create a hydra utopia that can sustain them indefinitely. Now, 196 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: this is a good point in the use of the 197 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:13,199 Speaker 1: word immortality, which sometimes comes up when people are covering 198 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:15,960 Speaker 1: organisms like these. There are a couple of different ways 199 00:11:15,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: you could look at immortality. One would be the Highlander 200 00:11:19,800 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: version or something like that, where there's just like nothing 201 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: that can kill you except maybe one or two little things, 202 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: but that you are generally invulnerable to death. And then 203 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: there'd be a different version of immortality that says, yeah, 204 00:11:33,880 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: you're vulnerable to death by injury or disease, you just 205 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: don't naturally grow old and die. You don't have a 206 00:11:40,000 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: cap on your life span. That would be more like 207 00:11:43,000 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: what are the elves of Middle Earth? Kind of like that, 208 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:47,800 Speaker 1: Like they can be killed in battle, but they don't 209 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: grow old and die. Yeah. Well, I mean I would 210 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 1: argue that the immortals of Highlander are much the same, 211 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: Like there's a there's a very specific thing you can 212 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: do to kill them, uh, and technically anyone can do it. 213 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: It's just you've got to get the drop on a right. 214 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,559 Speaker 1: We should mention that we're popping in little references to 215 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,839 Speaker 1: Highlander to get you ready for the fact that one 216 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: day soon we're going to do a Science of Highlander 217 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 1: two episode and I'm not kidding. Yeah, you have advanced 218 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 1: warning so you can all go review at least the 219 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: first two films. Well, I would say just the first 220 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: two films actually, okay, but back to the hydra and 221 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: biological immortality in the real world. Yeah, so this is 222 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: a major point really for all organisms. The natural world 223 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: is generally sufficient to ensure mortality. It's dangerous, It's filled 224 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: with competitors, predators, pathogens, accidents, and all manner of additional hazards. Now, 225 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:37,400 Speaker 1: humans and their captives tend to live in a very 226 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: privileged space, largely removed from the threat of predation. At least, 227 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: you'll find other creatures with no natural predators as well. 228 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,600 Speaker 1: Typically these are apex predators, but that doesn't mean they 229 00:12:47,640 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 1: don't have to deal with all these other dangers. Well. No, 230 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: when you think about an apex predator, just because there's 231 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: nothing that tackles it and tears it apart and eats it, 232 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,840 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that it's not subject to attacks from 233 00:13:00,840 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 1: its environment, right. I mean, it of course is subject 234 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:06,439 Speaker 1: to disease. But one of the other things to think 235 00:13:06,440 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: about with an apex predator is these creatures are very 236 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 1: often constantly at the edge of starvation. And so when 237 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: you see the antelope running from the cheetah or something. 238 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: Of course, the cheetahs trying to kill the antelope, but 239 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: by escaping, the antelope is sort of also trying to 240 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,959 Speaker 1: kill the cheetah. It is starving the cheetah to death 241 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 1: by escaping. The cheat is a great example too, because 242 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:32,720 Speaker 1: either cheetah injures itself in the pursuit of a prey, 243 00:13:32,840 --> 00:13:36,760 Speaker 1: especially if it tackles prey that is a little beyond 244 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:42,200 Speaker 1: its ability or or is potentially beyond its ability, it 245 00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: can sustain an injury that results in death, not because 246 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: it becomes infected or what have you, but because say, 247 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,319 Speaker 1: a wounded limb on a cheetah can mean it cannot 248 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,400 Speaker 1: pursue prey and it starves. Right. This is another thing 249 00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: we often fail to appreciate in the natural world is 250 00:13:58,200 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: how how absolutely damning a small injury can be to 251 00:14:04,679 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: an organism that has to hunt or escape hunters to survive. 252 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: You also, of course, have read about large cats that 253 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: have turned man killer, and uh in some of these 254 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: cases I remember correctly, Sometimes it has to do with 255 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 1: the decline of dental health, like their their inability to 256 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 1: depend on their their teeth for their traditional prey, and 257 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: it leads to sort of a desperate switch in their 258 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:34,520 Speaker 1: their selection of prey. So anyway, most most individuals are 259 00:14:34,520 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 1: going to die or be killed before they can grow old, 260 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 1: so there's already a low probability of being alive and 261 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 1: reproductive at an advanced age. Still, hyders are are really 262 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: interesting because it give us a real world of world 263 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: example of how how undying creatures would work on a 264 00:14:49,040 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: biological level. They're hardy, their regenerative they have they have 265 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:57,600 Speaker 1: evolved to thrive in harsh environments, and it actually reminds 266 00:14:57,600 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: me of an alien species that shows up in Ian 267 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: m banks. The Culture series, of course, go into the 268 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: Culture Yeah, I mean he he always managed to work 269 00:15:05,640 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: so many wonderful scientific topics into his his books, and 270 00:15:09,040 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: one of these topics is biological immortality. Alright, So we 271 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: meet in the really the very first Culture book, we 272 00:15:15,280 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: meet the Adherens. And here's just a quick quote. The 273 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: Adherens themselves had evolved on their planet a deer as 274 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,880 Speaker 1: the top monster from a whole planet full of monsters. 275 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:30,240 Speaker 1: The frenetic and savage ecology of a deer in its 276 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: early days had long since disappeared, and so had all 277 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: the other homeworld monsters. Except those in zoos. But the 278 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: Adherens had retained the intelligence that made them winners, as 279 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: well as the biological immortality, which, due to the viciousness 280 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: of the fight for survival back then, not to mention 281 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: a deer's high radiation levels, had been an evolutionary advantage 282 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: rather than a recipe for stagnation. Now, I think that 283 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: might be something interesting to come back to, maybe in 284 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: the second episode, and consider whether it would actually work 285 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: that way and what the effect of high mortality at 286 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: different stages of life would have on the life span 287 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: of an organism. Alright, Well, on that note, let's take 288 00:16:09,800 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: a quick break, and when we come back, we're gonna 289 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: roll through just a few other long living organisms, uh 290 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:20,520 Speaker 1: that are not a hydra or an endearing thank alright, 291 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: we're back. So I mentioned the greenland shark earlier. This 292 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: one is pretty impressive because greenland sharks live where we 293 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:32,920 Speaker 1: understand now about four hundred years uh. And this is 294 00:16:32,960 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 1: an exclusively wild species as well. This is not something 295 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 1: you're gonna find growing old and fat and an aquarium. 296 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: These are sharks generally don't do very well in aquariums. Correct. Yeah, 297 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: it's and no one has a greenland shark that I 298 00:16:45,760 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 1: am aware of as of this recording. At two thousand sixteen, 299 00:16:49,800 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: University of Copenhagen study estimated that one female greenland shark 300 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 1: UH had it was, it was at least four hundred 301 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: years old, and that the species doesn't even reach sexual 302 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: mature until one fifty. So think of that, not until 303 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:07,880 Speaker 1: they've reached an age that exceeds every human being who 304 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: has ever lived, and that's counting unverified but not mythic 305 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,959 Speaker 1: individual humans, right, not the Highlanders or you know, like 306 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: you know, biblical days. Right. Yeah. Now, of course that's 307 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:25,040 Speaker 1: still not the oldest animal, because there was a clam 308 00:17:25,119 --> 00:17:29,160 Speaker 1: named Ming. This is the first line of a children's book. 309 00:17:29,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: I know it should be. Well, I would be. I 310 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,160 Speaker 1: would actually be surprised if there's not a children's book 311 00:17:33,160 --> 00:17:35,679 Speaker 1: about Ming. There was a clam named Ming. Yeah, and 312 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 1: Ming did love to sing. Yeah, it's this here writes itself. 313 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: So technically Ming was a qua hog clam. This is 314 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: uh an Arctic variety of clam, and it was discovered 315 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: off the coast of Iceland in two thousand six Now 316 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:52,480 Speaker 1: at the time they thought it was around four hundred 317 00:17:52,480 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: and five years old, so they named it after the 318 00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: Ming dynasty that would have ruled China at this time. 319 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:01,080 Speaker 1: Later estimates, and this is supported by urban dating, would 320 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:04,480 Speaker 1: boost that age to five hundred and seven years half 321 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:08,280 Speaker 1: a millennium. So this means that the creature was born 322 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 1: in fourteen and that's still within the Mean dynasty which 323 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: went four And to throw another point of context in there, 324 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: this was around the time that Leonardo da Vinci completed 325 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,719 Speaker 1: the Last Supper. It's the year Portuguese explorer Vasco da 326 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: Gama reached India. That's when this this thing was was 327 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: born and then it died in two thousand and six, 328 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: there was a clam named Ming, and Ming remembered everything. 329 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: There you go now the plant where world, of course 330 00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,360 Speaker 1: has all of this beat uh. There's the great basin 331 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: bristle cone Pine or Pinus along Gava and it can 332 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,320 Speaker 1: only lived to over five thousand years of age, and 333 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: that takes us back to the very end of the 334 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:54,199 Speaker 1: Neolithic period. Work on Stonehenge had begun. This was the 335 00:18:54,240 --> 00:18:56,560 Speaker 1: age of the Pharaoh, so it lived through the rise 336 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,320 Speaker 1: and the fall of the Roman Empire. Now, of course 337 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 1: this highlights that different kinds of organisms have massively different 338 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: potential when it comes to lifespan. Yeah, and of course 339 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:09,080 Speaker 1: plants are very different from animals. This reminds me that 340 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: one of the ideas that was brought up recently. I 341 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: believe on our discussion module on on Facebook or Facebook group, 342 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 1: that we should do something just on plants, like what 343 00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: is a plant? To sort of strip it down to 344 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,800 Speaker 1: its basics. I kind of like that idea, it's a 345 00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: really lazy animal. Well, I've got a really lazy one. 346 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 1: Then for you here, Uh, there's at least one step 347 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: beyond the great basin bristle Cone pine. And this is 348 00:19:35,040 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: something you'll find in fish Lake National Park in Utah 349 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 1: here in the United States, Uh, the quaking aspen tree, 350 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 1: which is also the state tree by the way, also 351 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: known as the trembling Giant or pando, which means I spread. 352 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: So what we have here and this is this is 353 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,640 Speaker 1: one where not everybody necessarily agrees with that this might 354 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: be sort of bending the definition a little bit of 355 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: what is a long living organism. But what we have 356 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: here is a single clone of quaking asp been connected 357 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:05,880 Speaker 1: by a single extensive roots system that's roughly the size 358 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 1: of Vatican City, a hundred and six acres thirteen million 359 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 1: pounds and it's all eighty thousand years old. So what 360 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: you're talking about is a forest that is all sort 361 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: of in some way the same organism. Right, you can. 362 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:22,560 Speaker 1: It's it's not as simple as the clam was born 363 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:25,679 Speaker 1: in the century and it died in this one. But 364 00:20:25,800 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: if you if you've been the definition enough and you 365 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: accept this as an example, we're talking about a thing 366 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:34,240 Speaker 1: that has lived since humans first left Africa to colonized 367 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,600 Speaker 1: the world. Wow. Yeah, Now, Robert, here's something I've always 368 00:20:37,600 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: wondered about. Okay, dinosaurs. You got to wonder how long 369 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: they lived, especially because this gets warped by our sense 370 00:20:44,800 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 1: of history. I think because they lived so long ago, 371 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: you just naturally go to this completely illogical place where 372 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 1: they must have lived a long time. Like, Okay, tyrannosaurs 373 00:20:57,040 --> 00:20:59,879 Speaker 1: rex lived maybe three hundred years. I mean they they 374 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: they've got very big, so you have to imagine it 375 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 1: took them a while to grow as big as they did. 376 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: This would take a lot of years of eating and 377 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:10,479 Speaker 1: cell division and all that. So so surely they had 378 00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,399 Speaker 1: very long lifespans. Well, this used to be the main theory, 379 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: and this was in part because of ai their size 380 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 1: or at least the size of many of the specimens 381 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: and the fact that we thought, well, they were essentially 382 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:26,119 Speaker 1: giant reptiles, and so based on slow reptile growth rates 383 00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: and their size, they said, well, big dinos probably lived 384 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: several hundred years. But today paleonto just believed they grew 385 00:21:32,560 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: more like birds and mammals, and this cuts back on 386 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 1: their lifespans somewhat. So, for instance, the Field Museum of 387 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,720 Speaker 1: Chicago they have this, uh, this these t rex remains 388 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: that they named Sue. Sue. Sue is great. Yeah, she's 389 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,679 Speaker 1: a wonderful specimen. You get to look right up at 390 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,520 Speaker 1: her and get a sense of the true size of 391 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: this this amazing species. Can I say something embarrassing, go 392 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 1: for it. I cried a little bit at Sue. Yeah, 393 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm not kidding. When we were in Chicago and I'm 394 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 1: just sitting there looking at Sue for a while, I 395 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: did something to me a little misty. That's that's beautiful. 396 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: I I can understand it because it is like looking 397 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: back in time to encounter, you know, a fossil like that. 398 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:16,200 Speaker 1: So Sue is a rather big specimen, or at least 399 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: the fossil remains are rather large and speak to a 400 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: large specimen. They we think now that she probably achieved 401 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,400 Speaker 1: adult size at age twenty and lived to a ripe 402 00:22:26,440 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 1: old age of twenty nine. So I am now older 403 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:36,200 Speaker 1: than than this Tyrannosaurus rex was when it dies exactly. Yeah, 404 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,639 Speaker 1: and uh, and you just underlines that what you had 405 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 1: with the dinosaurs was likely rapid growth but short lives. 406 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:46,360 Speaker 1: Now one sort of side question that we won't fully explore. 407 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,199 Speaker 1: But this this may raise the question, well, dinosaurs have 408 00:22:49,320 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: cancer because you're thinking about rapid growth, right of course. Well, 409 00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:55,320 Speaker 1: basically this is the question we have to come back to. 410 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: But based on the research I was looking at, we 411 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 1: only have evidence of the haddress sores the duck build 412 00:23:01,040 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: dinosaurs developing any form of cancer. Now that's the caveat 413 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,239 Speaker 1: that's the only the only ones we have evidence of 414 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:11,479 Speaker 1: that that occurring in. But it is interesting to think 415 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,399 Speaker 1: of like the late model dinosaur as being the place 416 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: where we see the cancer showing up. We got to 417 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:19,199 Speaker 1: come back and do an episode on dinosaur cancer in 418 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: the future. Yeah, by all means, well, I want to 419 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:23,560 Speaker 1: do something that we often end up having to do, 420 00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 1: which is that after we've explored a concept for a while, 421 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: it becomes more and more complicated, and our lay definition 422 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:34,120 Speaker 1: starts to get a little less useful. So I think 423 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 1: maybe we should ask the question what actually is aging? Now? 424 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:43,240 Speaker 1: We have a pretty uh intuitive, gut level understanding of 425 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,440 Speaker 1: what aging is. We know when we see it, But 426 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: how would you define it? I mean, it's it is 427 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: something different from death, and it is something different from 428 00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,040 Speaker 1: just like, I don't know, your skin getting wrinkles or 429 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,920 Speaker 1: something like that. What what is the actual scientific thing 430 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: that all of the stuff we call aging has in common. Well, 431 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:07,800 Speaker 1: this is a great question. I mean, on one hand, 432 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,320 Speaker 1: it is closely tied to death, and I think one 433 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: of the stumbling blocks is that will will alreadily admit 434 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,439 Speaker 1: that aging is something that our body does, but we 435 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: tend there's tends to it tends to be a cultural 436 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: bearer in place to saying that death is something our 437 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 1: body does. We like to push that off onto some 438 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: sort of external force of of fade or anthropomorphized dread, 439 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: you know, or some sort of limit imposed on us 440 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,360 Speaker 1: by the gods. Well, yeah, yeah, death is something that 441 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: we more often characterize as happening to us. Death happens 442 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: to you. It's not something you do, though, there you 443 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,679 Speaker 1: can kind of see that the division between the death 444 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 1: and the aging death I was talking about at the 445 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: beginning of this episode comes into focus, because of course 446 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: death can happen to you if you get a rock 447 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:54,359 Speaker 1: jammed through your you know, through your body or something 448 00:24:54,400 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: like that. But the body does seem to naturally progress 449 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: toward death of time, and that's kind of a weird question, 450 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: like why would it do that. We will definitely explore 451 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,920 Speaker 1: the science behind that question in the second episode that 452 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:11,560 Speaker 1: we will look at some archaic ancers to it in 453 00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: this one, because when especially with the human, with the 454 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,800 Speaker 1: human experience of aging and death, it seems completely illogical 455 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: that in many cases a human being would spend the 456 00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: majority of its life progressing towards death, Like the majority 457 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:30,879 Speaker 1: of your life is declined. Uh, that just feels either 458 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,160 Speaker 1: gross or cruel or just like a horrible design flaw 459 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: or yeah, or nonsensical. Where's my eternal youth? Doesn't make 460 00:25:39,359 --> 00:25:44,359 Speaker 1: any sense? Um? So. In his book The Evolutionary Biology 461 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: of Aging published by Oxford University Press, the biologist Michael R. 462 00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: Rose defined aging in the following way quote a persistent 463 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:58,160 Speaker 1: decline in the age specific fitness components of an organism 464 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: due to internal physic eological deterioration. Now Rose actually has 465 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: offered has said that in some ways we might need 466 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: to update that understanding a little bit to accommodate for 467 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: some new discoveries. But I think this is a good 468 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: place to start. So let's look at the parts of 469 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: that definition. Number one, it's persistent decline, which means aging 470 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: only goes one way. It's not characterized by say decline 471 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: and rebound. And some organisms do have patterns like this 472 00:26:26,160 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 1: is not quite aging, like you can think about the 473 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 1: jellyfish that have regenerative capabilities where they can revert to 474 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: a younger stage of life. But then so it's persistent decline. 475 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,000 Speaker 1: And then in the quote age specific fitness components biological 476 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:46,200 Speaker 1: fitness meaning the ability to survive and reproduce. So these 477 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,879 Speaker 1: are the things that are persistently in decline. You become 478 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: less able to survive and less able to reproduce. And 479 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:57,960 Speaker 1: then it's due to internal physiological deterioration. So it's saying 480 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: that this persistent decline in the ability to survive and 481 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,560 Speaker 1: reproduce is not due to disease or injury, but to 482 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 1: something deteriorating within the body. Tissues themselves, yeah, this is 483 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,280 Speaker 1: this makes me think, of course, of the phrase cradle 484 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: to the grave and with the with the hydra. The 485 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: cradle to the grave is kind of a straight line 486 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: with reproduction taking place at all levels until something happens 487 00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:28,040 Speaker 1: to kill it. Whereas most of the models that that 488 00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 1: we look at, most of the models we looked at 489 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: in researching this episode, it's more of a of a 490 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,880 Speaker 1: rise rising and lowering. There's a rise towards like peak 491 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 1: sexual maturity, peak reproductive maturity, and then a decline. Yeah. Yeah, 492 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,520 Speaker 1: and then it gets even stickier, right because we we've 493 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:47,679 Speaker 1: just tried to be very careful and how we're defining this. 494 00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:50,399 Speaker 1: But then I realized that I said the it's a 495 00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 1: decline in the ability to survive and reproduce, not due 496 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: to disease or injury. But a lot of the things 497 00:27:56,600 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: that are the characteristic signals of aging are sometimes thought 498 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: of as diseases, even though maybe they're not caused by 499 00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: say a germ or something. Uh. There are all kinds 500 00:28:09,720 --> 00:28:15,080 Speaker 1: of things like diabetes melitas, or like rheumatoid arthritis that 501 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,199 Speaker 1: are totally characteristic signs of aging and human beings, and 502 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 1: they're thought of as diseases. But they're not so much 503 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:26,120 Speaker 1: something that gets done to the body by external forces. 504 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: There are a thing that happens when the body is 505 00:28:28,560 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: around for a long time under certain conditions. It makes 506 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,040 Speaker 1: me think back to our episode on Chinese immortality and 507 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,120 Speaker 1: about the the idea of the the older body being 508 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: kind of an alien body, Like it's a different biology. 509 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: We're changing into a different being with different physical characteristics, 510 00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:53,880 Speaker 1: generally characteristics that that lean towards towards weakness. Absolutely, But 511 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:57,320 Speaker 1: then again, you can also look at aging through the microscope, 512 00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: look at it on the cellular level, and this is 513 00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: where you'll often see people using words like senescence. Defined 514 00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:08,480 Speaker 1: by by Nature's scientific glossory quote, senescence is the process 515 00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: by which cells irreversibly stop dividing and inter a state 516 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 1: of permanent growth arrest without undergoing cell death. Senescence can 517 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,960 Speaker 1: be induced by unrepaired DNA damage or other cellular stresses. 518 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 1: So this is looking at it on the microscopic level 519 00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: and saying senescence, often used as as a synonym for aging, 520 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:36,760 Speaker 1: happens when the cells stop making new rejuvenated cells. This 521 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: is kind of the lack of upkeep keep model. It's 522 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: the idea that well, the house is falling apart because 523 00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: nobody's working on it, nobody's maintaining, or at least the 524 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: maintenance has really been scaled back or it's all. It's 525 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: been my experience thus far with aging that you find 526 00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 1: the maintenance requests are are kind of rolled out in 527 00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: an a logical way where you you may think yourself, well, 528 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: why am I still sore from this injury I sustained 529 00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,160 Speaker 1: last month? But my my, what my body is really 530 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: trying to do is like grow a bunch of nose hair. 531 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: You know, it's like, why why is that the the 532 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: main operative that's been passed down to my body? You know, 533 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:18,920 Speaker 1: everything is beginning to get out of whack. It's as 534 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: if it's as if there's nobody in charge anymore. Uh, 535 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: and they're just letting the house fall apart. Yeah, if 536 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: you were the superintendent of an apartment building, it would 537 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:31,880 Speaker 1: be like, there's a water leak in the basement that 538 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: has not been fixed for months, and your repair person 539 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,400 Speaker 1: is busy building hundreds of kitchen cabinets on the roof. 540 00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, and you think, well, in the old days, 541 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 1: we we didn't have all these kitchen cabinets on the 542 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: roof and things got fixed. Why do things not got 543 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: to get fixed anymore? That is a great question, and 544 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: I guess we should try to look at some answers 545 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: to that when we come back from this next break. 546 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:57,240 Speaker 1: Than alright, we're back, all right, So let's look at 547 00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: some historical and lay answers to the question, and why 548 00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 1: do we age? What's the point? Why does it happen? 549 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,640 Speaker 1: One common example that seems to make sense to people 550 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,160 Speaker 1: is the idea that our body is over time quote 551 00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: get worn out. Uh So. In his nine paper Pleotropy, 552 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: Natural Selection and the Evolution of Senescence, which we will 553 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: definitely come back to in the second episode here, the 554 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: American biologist George C. Williams pointed out that one problem 555 00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 1: explaining the true biological reason behind aging is that many 556 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: people think they already understand what aging is and why 557 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: it happens. And they're wrong. They're wrong. But if you 558 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: think you've already got the answer, you'll never go asking 559 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,160 Speaker 1: the question and writing of these kind of folk explanations 560 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: for aging. He says, quote the most injurious of these 561 00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: is the identification of senescence with the quote wearing out 562 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,160 Speaker 1: That is shown by human artifacts, And doesn't this seem 563 00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: very sensical? Right? Our tools get worn out over time. 564 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,480 Speaker 1: If you use a knife a whole lot, eventually it'll 565 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: lose the sharpness of its blade. Uh, any tool you 566 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,560 Speaker 1: use too much. I'm thinking about a broom that we 567 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,080 Speaker 1: used to have for years around our house that eventually 568 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: got worn down to nubs. There were just really no 569 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: bristles on it anymore. Shouldn't our bodies be the same. 570 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: This reminds me I've had to explain this to my 571 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,080 Speaker 1: my son recently, where he'll get some sort of cheap toy, 572 00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: you know, as a prize or something, and uh, and 573 00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: he'll be really into it, and I'll have to explain 574 00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: to him that this is not the sort of toy 575 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,719 Speaker 1: that lasts very long. You know, toys like this may 576 00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: last a week or so. And He's like, no, some 577 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: some toys last forever. And I'm like, well, they don't. 578 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,760 Speaker 1: They don't. Really, you have to try to explain how 579 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: pretty much everything that is made by man is going 580 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,840 Speaker 1: to fall apart. Okay, after I finished my children's book 581 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: about ming the clam, I'm writing a second children's book 582 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: called Toys Die. What it reminds me of the short 583 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: story that that A I was was based on. Oh yeah, 584 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,120 Speaker 1: I forget the exact title, but to believe it was 585 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: Super Toys Last All Summer, which I always thought was 586 00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: a rather fun title. That is great, But knowing knowing that, 587 00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: we also know that they won't last forever, like you, 588 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,440 Speaker 1: like you say so. Going back to what Williams wrote, quote, 589 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:21,720 Speaker 1: A moment of serious consideration should convince a biologist of 590 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,920 Speaker 1: the fundamental dissimilarity between these two processes, meaning the body 591 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: wearing out and tools wearing out. The breakdown of human 592 00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: artifacts is strictly mechanical and is readily cured by mechanical repairs. 593 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,960 Speaker 1: The system is a static one, since the same material 594 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: is continuously present and there is no endogenous change with 595 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 1: the passage of time. An organism, on the other hand, 596 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: is an open system in a state of material flux. 597 00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: Even such structures as bones maintain constant exchanges with the environment. Moreover, 598 00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: an organism produces itself by a morphogen netic process. It 599 00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 1: is indeed remarkable that after a seemingly miraculous feat of 600 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,360 Speaker 1: morphogenesis and that means like growing into the adult shape, 601 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: a metazoan should be unable to perform the much simpler 602 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: task of merely maintaining what is already formed. I think 603 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,879 Speaker 1: this is a fantastic point. I mean, it doesn't make 604 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: sense to say we get old because over time our 605 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:24,600 Speaker 1: bodies just get worn out. Because our bodies have the 606 00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 1: ability to rejuvenate tissues. They built the tissues in the 607 00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: first place, they could just keep building them as long 608 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,400 Speaker 1: as they wanted. Yeah, I mean, I think part of 609 00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,239 Speaker 1: this is the I mean part of it is just 610 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:37,520 Speaker 1: that we are so close to the aging process. We 611 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: experience it and we see it in others. Uh, we're 612 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: almost too close to it to have an objective view 613 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,719 Speaker 1: of it. And then to your point, we're informed by 614 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: what happens to our tools. And then I also they're 615 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,319 Speaker 1: tying into the experience as well, and the wearing out 616 00:34:52,320 --> 00:34:55,440 Speaker 1: of things. I think dental health has a has a 617 00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 1: huge impact on it because we observe this happening with 618 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:01,919 Speaker 1: our very teeth. Teeth of others that you get that 619 00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:04,600 Speaker 1: those adult teeth in and those are the ones you're 620 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: going to have for the rest of your life as 621 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: long as you can keep them. You know they are 622 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,440 Speaker 1: going to wear out, and unlike other organisms, there's not 623 00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: going to be an additional set there that are going 624 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: to lock into place. Third children's book for when children 625 00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: get their baby teeth knocked out, it's called this is 626 00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: your Last Chance. Yeah, I've actually heard parents, I think 627 00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: half joking, we talk about not worrying with brushing that 628 00:35:32,360 --> 00:35:34,719 Speaker 1: much for young children because now they're gonna go they're 629 00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: gonna get that second pit. You know they're gonna be 630 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,040 Speaker 1: These are not even these are just the baby teeth. 631 00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:40,799 Speaker 1: Wait till the adult teeth come in and then start 632 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: worrying about Yeah. Now, beyond these simple folk explanations, we 633 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 1: know that there have been lots of thinkers throughout history 634 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: who must have tried to explain why aging happens before 635 00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 1: we had modern modern genetics to really understand the true mechanisms. Right, Yeah, 636 00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,800 Speaker 1: this is you know, aging is part of the human experience, 637 00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:01,920 Speaker 1: and so some of the great thinkers and human history 638 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,800 Speaker 1: have pondered it. We have a few examples here to 639 00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: run through. For instance, Lucretius B. C. E uh he 640 00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: wrote about it in his text on the Nature of Things, 641 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,880 Speaker 1: and he argued that aging and death are beneficial because 642 00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: they make room for the next generation. This is probably 643 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:23,359 Speaker 1: another folk explanation. A lot of people would employ. Right, 644 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: It totally seems to make sense. You can't just keep 645 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: living forever because you've got to make room for the 646 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: next generation. Yeah. It especially makes a sort of sense, 647 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,759 Speaker 1: I think for human populations when you have, say, individuals 648 00:36:35,840 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 1: who have over the course of their lifetime, accumulated certain 649 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,040 Speaker 1: benefits and powers and possessions. And then the idea as well, 650 00:36:44,080 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 1: when they fall away, those resources spread to someone else, 651 00:36:47,840 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: you know, I mean we we we have always lived 652 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: in a world of of finite resources. And I want 653 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,759 Speaker 1: to be clear, it is good that that happens. The 654 00:36:56,800 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: next generations actually do benefit from the fact that older 655 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,319 Speaker 1: generations grow old and die. Uh, but there are some 656 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: serious problems with thinking about this as the reason biologically 657 00:37:08,640 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: that they grow old and die. Yeah. Though this this 658 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: observation persisted well up into the twentieth century. For instance, 659 00:37:14,840 --> 00:37:19,239 Speaker 1: nineteenth century German biologist August Weismann also believe that the 660 00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 1: death mechanism created room for the next generation of young 661 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,319 Speaker 1: to thrive at And you know, I have to men 662 00:37:25,360 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: as well that I always it always, I always kind 663 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: of felt this was the case, you know, at a 664 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:33,239 Speaker 1: gut level, without putting a lot of serious thought behind it. 665 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah. Before I investigated this, I assumed something along 666 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,840 Speaker 1: these lines. But then I started to doubt myself because 667 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, wait a minute, that's group selection 668 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: and I always feel iffy about that. The problem here 669 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: is pointed out by Daniel Fabian of the Institute of 670 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 1: Population Genetics in in the publication Nature is that quote 671 00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:55,240 Speaker 1: the cost of death to individuals likely exceeds the benefit 672 00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: to the group or species. And because long lived individuals 673 00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: leave more off ring been short lived individuals given equivalent 674 00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,399 Speaker 1: reproductive output, selection would not favor such a death mechanism. Yeah. 675 00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: This is one of the classic arguments against any kind 676 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: of group level selection influence. And we can revisit this 677 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,080 Speaker 1: in more detail in the second episode. Now, of course, 678 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:24,319 Speaker 1: another great thinker is Aristotle, right yeah, and he of 679 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,719 Speaker 1: course wrote about this as well in on Longevity and 680 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:31,360 Speaker 1: Shortness of Life. Aristotle tell us how it is? All right? Well, 681 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,879 Speaker 1: before I got going here, I do want to point 682 00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:36,640 Speaker 1: out I I am going to be the last person 683 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:41,640 Speaker 1: to to criticize Aristotle. Uh. I feel like he uh 684 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,000 Speaker 1: he did did a lot with the wisdom of the day, obviously, 685 00:38:45,480 --> 00:38:48,680 Speaker 1: and that's an understatement. Uh, but he was not able 686 00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: if We're not going to take the opinion that Aristotle 687 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,080 Speaker 1: was dumb though I was talking. I was actually talking 688 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: about this with my my wife last night when I 689 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 1: was running through the material I'm about to to relate here, 690 00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: and she said, well, that would actually make a wonderful 691 00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 1: like BuzzFeed style article like six things that dummy Aristotle 692 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: got wrong. I mean, he got a lot of stuff wrong, 693 00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:12,560 Speaker 1: but I mean everybody in the ancient world did. I 694 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,799 Speaker 1: mean he people just didn't know what we knew today, right, 695 00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 1: and he was attempting and attempting to figure it out. 696 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,120 Speaker 1: He threw out a number of hypotheses that were not 697 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: that did not shake out. So here are just a 698 00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,280 Speaker 1: few quotes from the work that will give you an 699 00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,960 Speaker 1: idea of where he was going. The reasons for some 700 00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,560 Speaker 1: animals being long lived and other short lived and in 701 00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:33,840 Speaker 1: a word, causes of the length and brevity of life 702 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:38,120 Speaker 1: call for investigation. Fair enough, Yeah, same question, we're asking 703 00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,319 Speaker 1: why does it happen? And then he goes on to 704 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: say race is inhabiting warm countries have longer life, those 705 00:39:44,120 --> 00:39:47,319 Speaker 1: living in cold climates have a shorter time. Likewise, there 706 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,080 Speaker 1: are similar differences among individuals occupying the same locality. I 707 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,719 Speaker 1: don't know if that's true. I mean, we already touched 708 00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 1: on the greenland shark, and I think we've gone more 709 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:58,319 Speaker 1: in depth in the greenland shark in the past on 710 00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: this show. But a part of it is its environment, 711 00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:05,560 Speaker 1: which is quite cold. Okay uh. He also commented on 712 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: the connection between the soul and the body. The soul 713 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 1: must stand in a different case in respect of its 714 00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: union with the body. And then this at least rings true, 715 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,960 Speaker 1: hints to all things are at all times in a 716 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,080 Speaker 1: state of transition and are coming into being and passing away. Okay, 717 00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: So this could be interpreted to mean something kind of 718 00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,680 Speaker 1: like the fact that we're constantly undergoing cell division and 719 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:33,040 Speaker 1: our bodies maintain them I mean, obviously Aristotle didn't know this, 720 00:40:33,160 --> 00:40:36,120 Speaker 1: but that our bodies maintain themselves through cell division and 721 00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,280 Speaker 1: repair of tissues. Yes. And then there's this quote speaking generally, 722 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: the longest lived things occur among the plants, example of 723 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: the date palm. Next, in order we find them among 724 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 1: the sanguineous animals rather than among the bloodless, and among 725 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: those with feet rather than among the denizens of the water. Hints. 726 00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:58,680 Speaker 1: Taking these two characters together, the longest lived animals fall 727 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:03,279 Speaker 1: amongst sanguineous animals which have feet. Uh, men and elephants. Well, 728 00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,200 Speaker 1: clearly we've learned how to make your aquarium fish live longer. 729 00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:11,520 Speaker 1: You transplant some feet onto them. Uh, this at least 730 00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: as good quote. As a matter of fact, also, it 731 00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:16,719 Speaker 1: is a general rule that the larger live longer than 732 00:41:16,719 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: the smaller. For the other long lived animals to happen 733 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 1: to be of a large size are also those I 734 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 1: have mentioned. Now, I'm sure this is not a hard 735 00:41:27,800 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: and fast rule, though I think there are probably some 736 00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:33,240 Speaker 1: weak correlations along these lines. So, I mean, we already 737 00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 1: touched on the dinosaur thing. But but certainly there are 738 00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:40,680 Speaker 1: some examples of rather large animals that have longer lifespans 739 00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:45,520 Speaker 1: within typical longevity. Now Aristotle's working theory, though, is that 740 00:41:45,600 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: all of it revolves around moisture in an organism. Yes, quote, 741 00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: we must remember that an animal is by nature human 742 00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,160 Speaker 1: and warm, and to live is to be of such 743 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: a constitution, while old age is dry and cold, and 744 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,759 Speaker 1: so is a corpse. I think Aristotle also tried to 745 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:08,520 Speaker 1: explain earthquakes by way of moisture, maybe misremembering that. And 746 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 1: he also said that aquatic animals don't count here because 747 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,960 Speaker 1: they're not humid. Their watery and quote watery moisture is 748 00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:19,440 Speaker 1: easily destroyed since it is cold and readily congealed. And finally, 749 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 1: he also throws in four in animals, the males are 750 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 1: in general the longer lived. I don't think that's true either. Yeah, 751 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:27,719 Speaker 1: I believe in in in in many cases it is 752 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:30,920 Speaker 1: the It is the female that lives longer, certainly in humans, 753 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,799 Speaker 1: though that may be more pronounced in cases where we 754 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,040 Speaker 1: have been removed from the like when we've got modern 755 00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:41,920 Speaker 1: medical care, because, for example, there is a lot of 756 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:48,400 Speaker 1: natural mortality during childbearing. Correct. So I don't know, you 757 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,919 Speaker 1: can maybe a point for Aristotle. There maybe a point 758 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 1: for modern science. We'll see, um. But anyway, that's that's 759 00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:58,200 Speaker 1: that's what Aristotle had to say in the matter. And uh, 760 00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 1: and I like, I say, it's it's it's fascinating to 761 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:03,919 Speaker 1: look back on his writings and see how he's working 762 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,560 Speaker 1: this all out totally. So in the end, I think 763 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 1: we're still left with this biological paradox of aging. Once 764 00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,640 Speaker 1: we think about aging in a biological context, it's sort 765 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 1: of fails to make sense. Evolution selects for genes that 766 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: increase biological fitness, meaning that increase the chances of survival 767 00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: and reproduction. Aging is characterized by an organism level decline 768 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,560 Speaker 1: in the chances of survival and reproduction. So why would 769 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:38,880 Speaker 1: organisms that have been evolving for billions of years still age, deteriorate, 770 00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:43,200 Speaker 1: lose the ability to reproduce, and eventually die. Shouldn't we 771 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:48,320 Speaker 1: have evolved to maximize survival and reproduction as long as possible. 772 00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:52,120 Speaker 1: Shouldn't we survive and keep making babies until a leopard 773 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:54,680 Speaker 1: bites our head off? But obviously this is not how 774 00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,879 Speaker 1: things are. So what's the answer to this mystery? Will 775 00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:00,319 Speaker 1: explore that in the next episode. As right, we have 776 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,399 Speaker 1: a cliffhanger. Will it be cruel twist of fate? Accident? Uh, 777 00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,399 Speaker 1: biological mechanism that serves a purpose? I don't know. We'll 778 00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,600 Speaker 1: find out maybe our genome has been evolving to feed 779 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,879 Speaker 1: leopards all right. Well, in the meantime, while you're waiting 780 00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:18,880 Speaker 1: for that next episode, head on over to Stuff to 781 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,200 Speaker 1: Blow your Mind dot com. That's the mothership. That's where 782 00:44:21,200 --> 00:44:25,160 Speaker 1: you'll find all the podcast episodes. You'll find videos, blog 783 00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,000 Speaker 1: post links out to our various social media accounts such 784 00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:31,719 Speaker 1: as Facebook, Twitter, Instagram. Big thanks, of course to our 785 00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: audio producers Alex Williams and Torry Harrison. And if you 786 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,040 Speaker 1: want to get in touch with us directly the old 787 00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:39,800 Speaker 1: fashioned way, you can do that as always by emailing 788 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,919 Speaker 1: us at Blow the Mind at how stuff works dot 789 00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:55,640 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 790 00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: Does it how stuff works dot com. They visit many 791 00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,680 Speaker 1: four stars far f