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Speaker 1: We have a legal system in this country that treats

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Speaker 1: you better if you're rich and guilty.

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Speaker 2: Than if you're poor and innocent.

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Speaker 3: Ryan Stevenson, groundbreaking civil rights attorney, founded the Equal Justice

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Speaker 3: Initiative to defend those no one else would to always.

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Speaker 1: Do the right thing, even when the right thing is

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Speaker 1: the hard thing.

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Speaker 3: Winning landmarks, Supreme Court cases and freeing over one hundred

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Speaker 3: and forty longly condemned prisoners.

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Speaker 4: They that are shulish man hand and you God has

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Speaker 4: sent me his number one Lord.

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Speaker 3: Anthony Ray Hinton survived twenty eight years on death row

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Speaker 3: for a crime he didn't commit. Two men, a bond

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Speaker 3: forged by injustice and a mission to tell the truth

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Speaker 3: we all need to hear.

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Speaker 1: We say in our world that capital punishment means them

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Speaker 1: without the capital get the punishment.

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Speaker 4: It had to only evidence their need, and that is

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Speaker 4: and I was black.

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Speaker 3: Choosing hope over hate became their greatest act of resistance.

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Speaker 2: Most people wouldn't be able to endure that.

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Speaker 1: It's just easier to give up than What makes him

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Speaker 1: so remarkable.

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Speaker 2: Is that he found his hope.

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Speaker 3: Michael B. Jordan and Osha Jackson Junior brought their story

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Speaker 3: to the Big Screen in Jess Mercy and now hosts

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Speaker 3: Martin Luther King the Third, Andrea Waters, King, Mark Kilberger,

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Speaker 3: and Craig Hilberger Died Deeper, a transformative conversation about resilience, redemption,

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Speaker 3: and how in the darkest moments we can choose hope

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Speaker 3: over hate.

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Speaker 1: We don't talk about slavery and lynching and segregation because

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Speaker 1: we want to punish America. We talk about these things

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Speaker 1: because we want to liberate America. It's those uncomfortable truths

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Speaker 1: that inspire us.

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Speaker 5: Welcome to My Legacy Today. Our guest is the extraordinary

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Speaker 5: Brian Stephenson, a man who has dedicated his life to

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Speaker 5: defending the poor, the incarcerated, and the condemned. His work

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Speaker 5: has fundamentally reframed what justice can and should look like

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Speaker 5: in America. Brian, we are truly honored that you are

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Speaker 5: here with us today. And as our audience knows, our

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Speaker 5: guests always bring a plus one to the conversation, someone

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Speaker 5: who has impacted their life in a profound way. You've

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Speaker 5: brought someone whose story is at the heart of why

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Speaker 5: you do this work. Will you please do us the

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Speaker 5: honor of introducing your plus one?

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Speaker 1: Yes, I am thrilled to be sitting next to my client,

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Speaker 1: my friend, my brother, my colleague, Anthony ray Hinton, who

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Speaker 1: was born and raised in Alabama, northwest of Birmingham, raised

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Speaker 1: by an amazing, loving mother who taught him really powerful

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Speaker 1: truths about what's right and what's wrong. A talented baseball

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Speaker 1: player was working in the coal mines and then was

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Speaker 1: wrongly accused of committing two murders because he was poor

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Speaker 1: and didn't have the resources to get the kind of

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Speaker 1: legal help he needed. Because he is black and was

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Speaker 1: presumed dangerous and guilty, he was wrongly convicted and sentenced

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Speaker 1: to death and spent nearly thirty years on Alabama's death row.

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Speaker 1: I had the great privilege of representing him for the

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Speaker 1: last sixteen years, and I'm so thrilled that in April

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Speaker 1: of twenty fifteen, he walked out of prison here and

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Speaker 1: not just walked out and regained his freedom, but began

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Speaker 1: a project, a movement, a mission to tell people around

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Speaker 1: this country about the harms of the death penalty, of

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Speaker 1: the wrongfulness of inequality and justice. And he's now a

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Speaker 1: beloved community educator here at the Equal Justice Initiative.

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Speaker 2: So this is Anthony ray.

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Speaker 5: Hinton to understand this incredible bond that the two of

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Speaker 5: you share today. Let's go back to when you first

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Speaker 5: met Anthony. You have been on death row.

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Speaker 1: For over a decade wow.

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Speaker 5: And one day, while you're being walked back to your cell,

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Speaker 5: you see Brian on television talking about Walter McMillan, a

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Speaker 5: man that he just freed from death row. What did

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Speaker 5: you write to Brian in that first letter that you

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Speaker 5: sent him.

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Speaker 4: Missus Stevenson. I know you get a lot of letters

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Speaker 4: from inmates, I said, but I am truly innocent and

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Speaker 4: I would like to ask a favor of you. And

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Speaker 4: that prav was what you read my transcript. And after

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Speaker 4: reading my transcript, which you consider being my lawyer, and

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Speaker 4: I figure, hearing so much about him, as small as

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Speaker 4: it was, as great as he was, once he read

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Speaker 4: my transcript, that would be no doubt that he would

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Speaker 4: say something is wrong with this case. I felt within

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Speaker 4: my heart this is the right person. After listening to

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Speaker 4: him on TV talk about why we don't lead a

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Speaker 4: death penalt in his country, and I figured my case

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Speaker 4: was perhaps one of the best case he would ever

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Speaker 4: come across. Due to the fact there was no evidence,

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Speaker 4: there was no eyewitness no finger, Prince. It was based

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Speaker 4: on racism, if you ask MENI and the fact that

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Speaker 4: I was going black and poor. And I think about

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Speaker 4: three months later he had told me he was coming

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Speaker 4: to see me. And the day I say this with

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Speaker 4: all the day that I shook this man's hand, I

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Speaker 4: knew God had sent me his number one lawyer. Wow.

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Speaker 5: And at that point you had been on death row

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Speaker 5: for over a decade.

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Speaker 4: Yes, And he said I'm gonna get you out of here.

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Speaker 4: And I hadn't heard that from any lawyer that I

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Speaker 4: had previous to missus Stevenson becoming my lawyer. And when

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Speaker 4: he said those words, he said, don't worry, I'm gonna

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Speaker 4: get you out of here. I believed you. I had

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Speaker 4: no reason to doubt him. I knew it was gonna

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Speaker 4: be a challenge, but I really felt that this was

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Speaker 4: the man that God had brought him my life to

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Speaker 4: represent me, to get me to where I am today.

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Speaker 4: And I was right, Wow, you were Yes.

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Speaker 6: You know, Brian gave a little bit of a context.

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Speaker 6: Anthony was charged with two murders in nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 6: He was convicted to send to death row, even though

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Speaker 6: he had a solid alibi. The only evidence linking him

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Speaker 6: to the crime was a gun that the state claimed

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Speaker 6: matched the bullets, but Brian, of course, would later prove

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Speaker 6: that it didn't. But then, the more substantive question is

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Speaker 6: that you said that race, poverty, and inadequate legal assistance

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Speaker 6: conspired to create a text book example, a textbook example

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Speaker 6: of injustice in the Anthony's case. What do most people

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Speaker 6: not understand about those three intersections of race, poverty, and

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Speaker 6: adequate legal assistance, and how unfortunately those often conspire to

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Speaker 6: work together.

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Speaker 1: Well, I mean, I often say that we have a

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Speaker 1: legal system in this country that treats you better if

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Speaker 1: you're rich and guilty than if you're poor and innocent.

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Speaker 1: Well not Culpability shapes the outcomes of many criminal trials,

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Speaker 1: and Hitton's case dramatically revealed that the state had virtually

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Speaker 1: no credible basis for believing that he committed these crimes.

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Speaker 1: They retrieved a gun from his mother's home that clearly

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Speaker 1: had not been fired in many, many years. They tested it,

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Speaker 1: There was no legitimate match between the bullets and this

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Speaker 1: gun from the crime scene. But they were so desperate

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Speaker 1: to solve these crimes, just to create some contexts these murders,

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Speaker 1: A couple of fast food store managers had created a

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Speaker 1: lot of fear and alarm in the Birmingham area, so

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Speaker 1: people were on edge. There was pressure on them to

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Speaker 1: make an arrest. People wanted to believe that some dangerous

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Speaker 1: person was no longer out there, and that pressure meant

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Speaker 1: that I don't think they were as focused on getting

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Speaker 1: the right person, the person who had actually committed the crime,

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Speaker 1: then getting somebody that would allow them to say to

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Speaker 1: the public, we've solved the crime. And because mister Hinton

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Speaker 1: was indigen didn't have the money, they knew he was

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Speaker 1: going to have to rely on whatever lawyer of the

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Speaker 1: court appointed to him. And to be honest, if he

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Speaker 1: had had the resources to get the kind of legal

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Speaker 1: help he needed, he would have never been convicted. And

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Speaker 1: it's still tragic to this day that he didn't have that,

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Speaker 1: because he's sitting here next to me now and he's

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Speaker 1: got an amazing sense of humor, he's got a powerful

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Speaker 1: mission and testimony, and he's a powerful speaker. But he

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Speaker 1: lost twenty eight years of his life. He lost so

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Speaker 1: much that no one can give him back, and that's

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Speaker 1: a tragedy we cannot fix. And so having an energen

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Speaker 1: defense system. Having a legal system that doesn't disadvantage you,

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Speaker 1: doesn't disfavor you even when you're innocent, is a critical

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Speaker 1: issue in America, and we've done very little to create

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Speaker 1: the kind of resources that many people in this country

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Speaker 1: need when they're accused of a crime. So that's how

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Speaker 1: poverty plays out. He needed an expert who could make

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Speaker 1: it very clear that the weapon that they were trying

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Speaker 1: to connect was not the weapon involved.

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Speaker 2: Couldn't get that.

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Speaker 1: He got an expert who was literally blind in one eye,

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Speaker 1: who was a mechanical engineer who had never testified on

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Speaker 1: this kind of case, and the jury literally laughed at that.

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Speaker 2: Witness when he was on the stand.

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Speaker 1: Race comes into play because I do think there's a

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Speaker 1: presumption of dangerousness and guilt that gets assigned the black

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Speaker 1: and brown people in this country, where when the jury

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Speaker 1: comes in, they presume you're guilty, They presume you're dangerous,

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Speaker 1: and the burden is on you to prove the opposite. Now,

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Speaker 1: our legal system is actually based on a presumption of innocence.

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Speaker 1: It's not mister Hinton's burden to prove anything. When he

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Speaker 1: gets to court. He should have been able to sit

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Speaker 1: there and be exonerated because the state couldn't incredibly prove

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Speaker 1: his guilt, but because he's black and there's this presumption

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Speaker 1: of dangerousness and guilt, it was his burden to prove

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Speaker 1: to the jury that he didn't commit this crime. And

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Speaker 1: of course that's a whole different kind of task than

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Speaker 1: the lawyer that was appointed to represent him was prepared

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Speaker 1: to take on.

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Speaker 2: And so that combination of race.

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Speaker 1: And poverty really created an environment where he could be

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Speaker 1: wrongly convicted.

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Speaker 2: And it's a huge problem.

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Speaker 1: We've now identified over two hundred people who've been exonerated

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Speaker 1: after being sentenced to death. We have an error rate

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Speaker 1: in this country that's shocking. For every eight people we've

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Speaker 1: executed in the United States, we've identified one in this

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Speaker 1: in personal on death world who's been exonerated and released.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 1: And the truth is we would never tolerate that rate

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Speaker 1: of error in any other area. If somebody said one

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Speaker 1: out of eight planes is going to crash on takeoff

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Speaker 1: and everybody's going to die, nobody would fly. If somebody said, oh,

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Speaker 1: one out of eight apples has a toxin on it

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Speaker 1: and if you touch that apple, you're going to die,

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Speaker 1: we would stop selling apples. But we continue to tolerate

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Speaker 1: a death penalty with this sort of error rate, and

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Speaker 1: the victims are people like mister Hinton. You know, if somebody,

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Speaker 1: if I get in trouble and someone represents me and

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Speaker 1: my life is imperiled, I want that lawyer to represent

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Speaker 1: me as if their life was in pair. I want

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Speaker 1: them to fight for me like they're fighting for themselves.

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Speaker 1: And that's the kind of lawyer I want to be.

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Speaker 1: And that's the kind of lawyer that mister Hinton needed

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Speaker 1: but didn't get. And because he didn't get that, it

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Speaker 1: costs to nearly thirty years. And I do hope people

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Speaker 1: understand that this isn't just some rare incident. His case

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Speaker 1: traumatized these problems in a very powerful way. We say

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Speaker 1: in our world the capital punishment means them without the

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Speaker 1: capital get the punishment. I think when people talk about

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Speaker 1: the death penalty, the threshold question isn't whether people deserve

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Speaker 1: to die for the crimes they've committed. The threshold question

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Speaker 1: is do we deserve to kill if we have a

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Speaker 1: legal system that is so undermined by bias against the poor,

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Speaker 1: bias against people of color, that's so flawed by errors,

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Speaker 1: And in my judgment.

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Speaker 2: We do not have that kind of system.

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Speaker 1: We do not deserve to kill when there are people

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Speaker 1: like Anthony ray Hinton experiencing what he's experienced in this

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Speaker 1: country over there over the time he was on death row.

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Speaker 6: Wow, that was just so incredibly powerful to understand. The

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Speaker 6: one and eighth.

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Speaker 4: When I was arrested, the officer told me there was

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Speaker 4: five things that was going to convict me. And he said,

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Speaker 4: number one, you black. Number two, a white man is

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Speaker 4: gonna say you shot it. Number three, you're gonna have

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Speaker 4: a white judge. Number four, you're gonna have a white prosecutor.

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Speaker 4: The number five you're gonna have an all white jurry.

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Speaker 4: No way in there did he ever say we have evidence,

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Speaker 4: we have failure, Prince, we have on our witness, we

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Speaker 4: got your on camera, or we got someone that gave

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Speaker 4: us a description. And even to this day, that still

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Speaker 4: hunts me because this detective knew they didn't need new evidence.

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Speaker 4: They they had the only evidence they need, and that

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Speaker 4: is and I was black.

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Speaker 2: We've spent.

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Speaker 1: Hundreds of millions of dollars, billions of dollars on jails

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Speaker 1: and prisons in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties. We

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Speaker 1: spent hundreds of millions of dollars on more law enforcement resources.

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Speaker 1: We didn't spend a penny on indigen defense in most

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Speaker 1: of these jurisdictions, we didn't have that same kind of

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Speaker 1: increase in spending.

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Speaker 2: And we could do that.

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Speaker 1: I think, you know, for us, and mister Hinton is

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Speaker 1: now involved in this work. If we made the kind

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Speaker 1: of investments into dealing with the health needs of a

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Speaker 1: lot of people who are struggling, I think we could

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Speaker 1: actually dramatically reduce the problems of crime. We could improve

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Speaker 1: public safety, we could eliminate some of these horrible crimes.

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Speaker 1: Most of our policy makers, and you know this, they

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Speaker 1: go around saying, after you've been raved, after you've been robbed,

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Speaker 1: after you've been murdered, we're going to really beat up

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Speaker 1: on the.

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Speaker 2: Person who committed that crime. That's not an effective strategy.

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Speaker 1: We should be saying, what are we going to do

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Speaker 1: to prevent these kinds of crimes? And that means we

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Speaker 1: have to invest in health. We have to invest in

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Speaker 1: making sure people had the basic needs. And I'll use

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Speaker 1: the drug policies just one small example and I'll stop.

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Speaker 1: You'll remember the nineteen seventies and eighties, we had politician

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Speaker 1: from both political parties who were saying that people who

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Speaker 1: are drug addicted and people who are drug dependent are

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Speaker 1: criminals who should be punished. And that's when our prison

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Speaker 1: population went from three hundred thousand in the early seventies

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Speaker 1: to over two million by the end of the century,

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Speaker 1: who became the nation with the highest rate of incarceration

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Speaker 1: in the world. Now, we should have said that people

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Speaker 1: who are suffering from drug addiction and drug dependency had

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Speaker 1: a health problem and we need a healthcare response to

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Speaker 1: that problem. And if we had invested in health care

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Speaker 1: solutions to addiction and dependency, we would have had all

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Speaker 1: of these millions of people going to jails in prison.

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Speaker 1: We could have kept families together, We could have reduced

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Speaker 1: all of that collateral crime. We wouldn't need to be

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Speaker 1: hunting drug traffickers in the Caribbean and talking about the

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Speaker 1: scourge and the threat of that problem, because we would

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Speaker 1: have been dealing with this problem as a health problem

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Speaker 1: and be in a very different place. Instead, we have

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Speaker 1: these record levels of opioid addiction and addiction and drug overdose.

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Speaker 1: And that's where I feel like we do have the capacity.

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Speaker 1: The questions do we have the will and I think

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Speaker 1: if we can match the will with our capacity, we

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Speaker 1: can completely change.

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Speaker 2: Our legal system.

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Speaker 1: I don't think there's anything that we should be bragging

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Speaker 1: about or even honorable about having the highest rate of

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Speaker 1: incarceration in the world. That's that statistic, that mark's failure.

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Speaker 1: When you have to imprison so many people, then you

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Speaker 1: are failing to use your resources in a way that

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Speaker 1: build a healthy and just society. And we just have

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Speaker 1: to connect the will with the capacity, and I think

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Speaker 1: if we do that, we can make transformational changes in

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Speaker 1: our society.

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Speaker 4: List let me ask a question.

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Speaker 7: You were twenty nine years old when you were sent

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Speaker 7: to death row, Yes, sir, and it was over a

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Speaker 7: dozen years before you met Brian. How did you survive

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Speaker 7: during that time?

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Speaker 4: Uh? To be honest with you, I survived uh by faith,

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Speaker 4: and I came to understand, UH, that was nothing I

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Speaker 4: could do. Uh. I had to somehow find a way

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Speaker 4: to escape. And I used my mind to believe that

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Speaker 4: I wasn't in at five I seven n every morning

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Speaker 4: I had the ability to leave and go wherever I

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Speaker 4: wanted to go and do whatever I wanted to do.

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Speaker 4: And then without having that ability to do that, uh,

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Speaker 4: having mister Stevenson wanted done me no good because I

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Speaker 4: was in solitary confinement, and solitary confinement is uh meant

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Speaker 4: to break uh, And so I refused to be broke.

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Speaker 4: I hadn't committed the crime, and I just knew at

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Speaker 4: some point in some time, I truly felt that God

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Speaker 4: was gonna send somebody by just say hey, I'm gonna

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Speaker 4: look at this case. This man is innocent, and I

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Speaker 4: held on to my belief. I held on to my

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Speaker 4: imagination until the real, the real hero came by. He

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Speaker 4: had assured me that he was gonna get me out,

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Speaker 4: and I began to use my mind in essential being

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Speaker 4: free and thought about what I would do once I

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Speaker 4: was out, and all that's how I survived.

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Speaker 1: So mister Hinton, as I think you know, has a

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Speaker 1: remarkable book about his experience called The Sun Does Shine,

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Speaker 1: which I'll encourage everyone to buy and read, because it

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Speaker 1: is absolutely true that the amount of time that he

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Speaker 1: spent on death row. Alabama's not a state like some

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Speaker 1: of these states where there are never executions. During the

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Speaker 1: time he was on death row, fifty five people were executed.

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Speaker 1: That meant people would be walking by his cell. In

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Speaker 1: the early years. They would execute people with the electric chair.

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Speaker 1: So he'd be in his cell and he'd smell the

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Speaker 1: flesh burning, he'd hear the sound. It was traumatizing. This

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Speaker 1: was torture, and not everybody, and in fact, most people

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to endure that wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 1: survive that. It's just easier to give up than to

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Speaker 1: have hope in such a hopeless place. And what makes

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Speaker 1: him so remarkable is that he found his hope and

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Speaker 1: that struggle to hold on too, that was every bit

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Speaker 1: as challenging as the legal struggle. We had to persuade

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Speaker 1: a court to grant him relief, which is why, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think he's someone who absolutely, you.

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Speaker 2: Know, should be celebrated and admired.

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Speaker 1: But it is no small thing to survive an environment

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Speaker 1: like that in the way that he did it.

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Speaker 3: Coming up an unlikely friendship on Death Row, Anthony Ray

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Speaker 3: Hinton on his conversations with the one of a KKK

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Speaker 3: grand Wizard that broke through generations of hate.

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Speaker 2: Now back to my legacy.

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Speaker 5: There's one particular story that I'm captivated by because as

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Speaker 5: someone that spent over a decade monitoring the klu Klux

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Speaker 5: Klan and Neil nazi'san Skinheads under Reverend C. Vivian at

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Speaker 5: the Center for Democratic Renewal. One of the most unexpected

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Speaker 5: stories from your time on Death Row is about Henry Hayes.

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Speaker 5: And for our audience listeners who don't know this, Henry

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Speaker 5: Hayes's father was a klu klux Klan KKK grand wizard

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Speaker 5: who ordered him to lynch a nineteen year old black man.

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Speaker 5: Can you just tell us a little bit about this

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Speaker 5: unlikely friendship.

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Speaker 4: A black man had been found not guilty for kidding

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Speaker 4: a white police officer in Birmingham, and my father gave

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Speaker 4: him and two other clansmen to order to go out

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Speaker 4: and kill the first African Amory male they came across.

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Speaker 4: And they just happened to come across Michael McDonnell and

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Speaker 4: they executed him in their own way. And when Henry

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Speaker 4: came to death Robe or he wouldn't talk, and I

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Speaker 4: would talk to him and holler over at and he

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Speaker 4: never would speak anything. But eventually I didn't let that stop.

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Speaker 4: Now didn't know who he was really because on Death

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Speaker 4: Rowd you can't see them but man's wide and concrete.

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Speaker 4: You don't know who next to you. But we began

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Speaker 4: to talk, and I got a note saying, do you

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Speaker 4: know who you're talking to every day? And I hollered

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Speaker 4: out and know whoever? Simply they know? Then they said

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Speaker 4: that's the plansmen who killed that kid, And so I

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Speaker 4: asked Henry, of course, and I said, Henry, why you

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Speaker 4: didn't tell me who you were? And Henry didn't respond.

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Speaker 4: But I had to ask myself more important question did

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Speaker 4: it matter? And once I asked myself did it matter?

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Speaker 4: The answer was no. He still deserved compassion, He still

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Speaker 4: deserved it love like any other. And so I began

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Speaker 4: to talk to him, and so Henry would call me Ray.

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Speaker 4: We talk every day, and I was asking Henry coursetion, like, Henry,

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Speaker 4: do they teach you to hate in school? This is

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Speaker 4: something your mom and dad talked to you. I wanted

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Speaker 4: to know, I really did, and he would tell me,

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Speaker 4: and I thought about what my mother told She said,

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Speaker 4: no matter what one does in life, they still deserve compassion.

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Speaker 4: And she would always say, boy, you always making me mad,

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Speaker 4: and I still love you, and you're always doing something

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Speaker 4: that God don't like, and he still loved you. So

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Speaker 4: I want you to have the same compassion for someone else.

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Speaker 4: And Hearry fit that mold and so I wanted to

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Speaker 4: show Henry that although we was born different color, we

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Speaker 4: still was brothers in Christ. And so I allowed Henry

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Speaker 4: to say what he wants. And I know this over

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Speaker 4: the course of the year by just being who I was.

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Speaker 4: I didn't try to talk down to him. I didn't

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Speaker 4: try to tell him anything that he said was wrong.

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Speaker 4: I wanted him to finally figure that out for himself.

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Speaker 4: And over the course of fourteen years we became friends.

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Speaker 4: And the reason I can say we became friend I

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Speaker 4: never will forget. One day on the visiting yard, his

403
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Speaker 4: father came the sin and he begged for me to

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Speaker 4: come to his table, and I got up, and you

405
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Speaker 4: weren't supposed to get up, but I got up and

406
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Speaker 4: went over to his table. And then he said, then

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Speaker 4: I want you to meet my friend Ray. And when

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Speaker 4: he introduced me to his father as his friend, I

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Speaker 4: knew then that something had changed in it, because he

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Speaker 4: probably never had said a black person was his friend.

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Speaker 4: And I put my hand out to shake his father hand,

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Speaker 4: but his father wouldn't shake my hand. He took my

413
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Speaker 4: hand down and I went back to my table, and

414
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Speaker 4: my visit asked me. He said, what was it that

415
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Speaker 4: all about? And I said progress. It's so. When we

416
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Speaker 4: left the visiting yard, I looked at him may and

417
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Speaker 4: I said, Henry, what's wrong? And he wouldn't save us.

418
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Speaker 4: I said, Henry, what's wrong? He said nothing. I said, Henry,

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Speaker 4: come on, man, tell me what's wrong. And he said, well,

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Speaker 4: my father said, as long as he come to see me,

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Speaker 4: I am never to invite a nigger to his tape.

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Speaker 4: And I said, Henry, that's your father cancer. If your

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Speaker 4: father want to die with that cancer called hey, let

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Speaker 4: him do it. But you don't have to, I said, Henry.

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Speaker 4: For the first time in your life, you are where

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Speaker 4: you can make your own decision. Who you talk to,

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Speaker 4: how long you talk to him, who you want to

428
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Speaker 4: be friends with, that's up to you. Now. Your father

429
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Speaker 4: can't tell you that. Your mother can't take it. And

430
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Speaker 4: we got back to the sailing and he went in

431
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Speaker 4: his ceiling. We lived bite chum and we talked for

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Speaker 4: the rest of us and I said, Henry, I want

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Speaker 4: you to know that God created you in his own image.

434
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,199
Speaker 4: He created you the way that he wanted you to be,

435
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,879
Speaker 4: and he created me who he wanted me to be.

436
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 4: I said, Henry. I have never stole from him and

437
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 4: never robbed, he never did anything. I don't know, why

438
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Speaker 4: do you hate me? And Henry respond was I don't

439
00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:27,639
Speaker 4: even know you. And I said, Henry, that's my point, exactor,

440
00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:30,360
Speaker 4: you don't even know me to hate man. And from

441
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:35,400
Speaker 4: then on we just became talking every day, became friends

442
00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,240
Speaker 4: as best she could. On death row and his family

443
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 4: died out older of course of fifteen years, and he

444
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 4: actually one could I sit with him and it wasn't

445
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,080
Speaker 4: granted his wish and I sit with him a little

446
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 4: bit doing to the day of the execution. But what

447
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:55,359
Speaker 4: got me was his last words. And his last words

448
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 4: was all of my life. I was brought up to hate.

449
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,119
Speaker 4: Every people that I was brought up to hate. For

450
00:25:02,160 --> 00:25:05,720
Speaker 4: the last fifteen years have shown me nothing but look

451
00:25:06,640 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 4: and tonight, els, I lead this work, I lead this world.

452
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,919
Speaker 4: I'm knowing what real love feel like. And they executed

453
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 4: my friend Henry, and I am convince that America ever

454
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 4: want to do away with hate. We got the party

455
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,399
Speaker 4: be willing to talk to each other and be willing

456
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 4: to listen to each other. But I gets it, America

457
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 4: are freight to have that opening on this conversation like

458
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: Henry and I did.

459
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,639
Speaker 7: Wow, mister Henson, your mother believed in your innocence and

460
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 7: visited you every single month until the day she died

461
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:50,680
Speaker 7: in two thousand and two. What's one thing your mother

462
00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:57,640
Speaker 7: taught you that kept you going during your darkest moments?

463
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 4: You know what? My mother was one of those that

464
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 4: she knew her children somehow. My mother could put twelve

465
00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:18,280
Speaker 4: cookies in a jar and she would tell all us,

466
00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:22,119
Speaker 4: don't touch. But she come home and she count those

467
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,479
Speaker 4: cookies and one was missing. She knew exact just one

468
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 4: of the old children got that cooking. And that because

469
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 4: I say today to young people, if PAMs is really

470
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 4: paying attention, they know you better they could think they are.

471
00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:41,760
Speaker 4: And my mom not one time asked me did I

472
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,639
Speaker 4: do it? She looked at me and she said, I

473
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: know you didn't do this and that because of the

474
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,040
Speaker 4: way she brought me up. That's the way I grew

475
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 4: up without a father, But I didn't grow up because

476
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,560
Speaker 4: he was absent. Ah. My father worked in a coal

477
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,240
Speaker 4: mine and a rock fell on him and he lost

478
00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 4: his mind. And my father was a mental institution and

479
00:27:01,320 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 4: the rest of them since I was four years old.

480
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 4: But I didn't fear no man more than I feared

481
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:14,399
Speaker 4: my mother. My mom just knew that one day I

482
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 4: could come home. And my mom used to ask me

483
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 4: every every day, every day she come or she would say,

484
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:25,920
Speaker 4: when are you coming home? And to be honest with you,

485
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 4: I would have to lie to my mom. And I

486
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 4: was some moment they working on it, and soon and

487
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 4: that soon never did get there and before she passed away,

488
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 4: and I have to live with that every day. But

489
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 4: I know my mom passed knowing that her baby boy.

490
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 4: I'm the baby of ten, five boys and five girls,

491
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 4: and with every five in my bean, I know my

492
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,240
Speaker 4: mom passed knowing that I was coming home, knowing that

493
00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 4: I was innocent and sold. That cares me every day,

494
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:06,159
Speaker 4: and every day I leave home with the thought of

495
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 4: making my mom proud. What can I do to make

496
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 4: my mom even proud of me? And if that means

497
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,240
Speaker 4: falling down, getting up and saying, hey, I'm sorry for

498
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 4: falling down, then we have a problem saying it. And

499
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 4: I just want to say that I had the best

500
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,240
Speaker 4: loved in the world and my mom taught me so

501
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 4: much that to this day I'm still living off and

502
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 4: I believe with every friv of my bean, I'm leaving

503
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,359
Speaker 4: off my mother prayer for me. Wow.

504
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 6: She sounds like just an incredible force for humanity. April third,

505
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,880
Speaker 6: twenty fifteen. Good Friday, of course for our listeners and

506
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 6: our viewers. You walked out of Jefferson County Jail at

507
00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 6: nine thirty in the morning. You said that being released

508
00:28:53,200 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 6: at the age of fifty eight, if I'm not mistaken,

509
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,680
Speaker 6: was like walking out into another planet. Can you just

510
00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 6: help us understand that? And what is the hardest adjustment?

511
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 4: Well, you know, I tell people it was. It was

512
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 4: good and bitter. The good was I was finally out.

513
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 4: The bad part to me was my mother wasn't there

514
00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 4: to see her baby boy or come home. But we

515
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 4: did the interview and missus Stevenson had told my best

516
00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 4: friend Leicester to uh take me to his home, but

517
00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 4: I wanted to go and see where they had buried

518
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 4: my mother. And the two of us got in his

519
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,240
Speaker 4: car and I put on the seat belt and asked

520
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:40,560
Speaker 4: we was going down the road? This white lady said

521
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 4: in one tenth for a mile to and right and

522
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 4: the buildings, which I said, what the hell? And I

523
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 4: was afraid to look back at and I was pointing

524
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: back in the back telling him that a white lady

525
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 4: was in the back seat, and he was laughing and

526
00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 4: I can't understand what he laughing about. And I'm saying,

527
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:07,479
Speaker 4: white lady like that. And when you couldn't take it

528
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:12,240
Speaker 4: no more, he pulled over. He said, there's no white

529
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 4: lady back else. She in here, And I said, how

530
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,840
Speaker 4: the hell she get in now? And he went to

531
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 4: telling me about GPS's and all of that, and she

532
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 4: would would tell him that cookies Ralph for faster rock take.

533
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,080
Speaker 4: You realize I'm being locked up thirty years and I

534
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 4: don't know nothing about model technology. I don't know anything

535
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,239
Speaker 4: about your changes of the world and what's going on.

536
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 4: I'm taking each minute, five minute trying your just trying

537
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 4: to learn. And my focus was to be honest with you.

538
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 4: Where do I live? What do I get a job?

539
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 4: What do I I get closed? Because I was set

540
00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,719
Speaker 4: as say say free, but I was set free with nothing.

541
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 4: I didn't have a place to live. I didn't have

542
00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 4: a place to call home or anything. But through it

543
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 4: all all I was able to live with my best

544
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: friend and ever I said, Missus Steveson was never spot

545
00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:15,040
Speaker 4: and have been there from the time I will release.

546
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 4: And before I got released, and I begin to say, hey,

547
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,760
Speaker 4: I don't know how I'm gonna make it, if life

548
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 4: is going to be this, it worked out, and I

549
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 4: am so thankful to be where I am today. And

550
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 4: I didn't give up, and I'm again I had hope

551
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 4: that one day it would get better. And I can

552
00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 4: truse to say that it out.

553
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 6: You said something that we all loved, and it was

554
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 6: the fact that you go outside every night and look

555
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 6: at the stars in the moon because you hadn't seen

556
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 6: them for years. And you still to this day walk

557
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 6: in the rain, having thirty or nearly thirty years stolen

558
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,560
Speaker 6: from you. You could be bitter and resentful, but you

559
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 6: are just a bundle of love. You're a bundle of wisdom,

560
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 6: of energy, of just gratitude. How do you have so

561
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,680
Speaker 6: much gratitude in your heart right now?

562
00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 4: Well, you know, being locked up for thirty years, you

563
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 4: don't realize. There's an old say, you don't realize what

564
00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 4: you had until you lose it. And I had lost

565
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 4: my freedom, and I would sit there and look lay

566
00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:21,280
Speaker 4: in the bed and look up and see nothing but country.

567
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 4: And then I realized when I was free, I never

568
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 4: did look up and see the stars of the moon,

569
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 4: and how much I wish I had seen the stars

570
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 4: in the moon because God put one of the most

571
00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 4: beautiful pictures that Lambrandt Percossa could never have painted. And

572
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 4: I try to tell people, never take it for gregg.

573
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 4: Always look up, just see the beautiful stars dreaming and

574
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,360
Speaker 4: flitzing wash the moon. And so when I came home,

575
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 4: I made a promise to myself that every night I

576
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 4: would go out and watch the stars in the moon

577
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 4: and look up and thank God for putting that beautiful

578
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,400
Speaker 4: picture up there so I could see it. Never take

579
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 4: anything for granted. All life is not promised. Tomorrow could

580
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 4: be the last day. So enjoy the day, but enjoy

581
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 4: it in the way that you enjoy it with somebody

582
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 4: that makes someone else feel just as good as you feel.

583
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 4: And every day I try to come here at Eji,

584
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:25,760
Speaker 4: I hope that I can say something to someone and

585
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 4: make them smile, because I believe that we need to

586
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 4: smile more. We need to learn how to embrace one another,

587
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 4: love one another, and treat each other with the most respect.

588
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,120
Speaker 4: And that's what I try to do every day of

589
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 4: my life. I'm not worried about what happened. I'm trying

590
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 4: to live for today and hopefully if I see fit

591
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 4: God to see fit for me to live tomorrow. I

592
00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 4: want to put a smile on whoever face I come

593
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:53,120
Speaker 4: in contact with.

594
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 5: Well, you've certainly done that today, and for all of

595
00:33:57,800 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 5: our listeners, I wish for you, and you're outside again

596
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 5: at night and you're looking at the stars and the moon,

597
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 5: that you also remember that, Anthony Hinton, probably, if not

598
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 5: at that moment, at some point that night, we'll be

599
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 5: joining you in that moment of awe and gratefulness.

600
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 6: If you're looking for stories that move you, insights that

601
00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,320
Speaker 6: shift you, in conversations that stay deeply within you, do

602
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 6: us a favor, and do yourself a favor and hit

603
00:34:23,640 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 6: the subscribe button right now. It's the best way to

604
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 6: support this podcast and support your journey. New episodes drop

605
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:30,959
Speaker 6: every week.

606
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:34,799
Speaker 2: Now. Back to My.

607
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: Legacy, Brian.

608
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 5: You spent your career in court rooms, winning legal battles,

609
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 5: but then you decide to build the Legacy Museum and

610
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:48,040
Speaker 5: the National Memorial for Peace and Justice. What was it

611
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 5: that made you realize that the fight for justice had

612
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 5: to expand beyond the courts.

613
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: Well, I think it was that realization that we were

614
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,560
Speaker 1: moving into an era where our courts were retreating from

615
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 1: a full comitment to the rule of law. If you

616
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,280
Speaker 1: study Reconstruction, what happened after the Civil War. We created

617
00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 1: laws that should have created a different future for formerly

618
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:12,640
Speaker 1: enslaved people. The Fourteenth Amendment guaranteed equal protection. The fifteenth

619
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,760
Speaker 1: Amendment guaranteed the right to vote, and during that twelve

620
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,239
Speaker 1: year period, eighty percent of the black people eligible to

621
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: vote registered and voted. We send people to Congress, we

622
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: opened black colleges. It's when we built most of the

623
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: black churches that exist in this country. We made a

624
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 1: commitment to family. There were thriving communities in Tulsa and

625
00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: places Greenwood and all these places around the country. And

626
00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:37,839
Speaker 1: then our courts retreated from a commitment to the rule

627
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: of law, and the US Supreme Court decided to favor

628
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 1: states rights over constitutional rights. We gave in to the

629
00:35:46,080 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: demands of racial hierarchy and white supremacy over the demands

630
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,919
Speaker 1: of equal protection and the right to vote. And that's

631
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: what created that century of a challenge. And I sensed

632
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,400
Speaker 1: something like that happening again a decade ago, when the

633
00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,320
Speaker 1: Court stopped responding to evidence of innocence. When we were

634
00:36:07,719 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: losing cases of clear intentional racial bias and jury selection,

635
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 1: when evidence of innocence was being ignored, it just became

636
00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: clear to me that we had to keep doing that

637
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 1: legal work, but we were going to have to get

638
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 1: outside the court room and begin doing this narrative work.

639
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: And I do think that is the defining struggle for

640
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: this era, that we are now in a narrative battle

641
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,959
Speaker 1: in this country and across the globe. There are people

642
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,640
Speaker 1: who are pushing the politics of fear and anger. They

643
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,359
Speaker 1: know that when people allow themselves to be governed by

644
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:42,400
Speaker 1: fear and anger, they'll start tolerating things you should never tolerate.

645
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:44,840
Speaker 1: They know that if you allow us have to be

646
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:47,560
Speaker 1: governed by fear and anger, people will accept things that

647
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: are unacceptable. When you look at human history, the worst

648
00:36:50,480 --> 00:36:53,520
Speaker 1: moments in the twentieth centuries when countries gave in to

649
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 1: the politics of fear and anger. That's what happened in Europe,

650
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: in Germany in the nineteen thirties and forties, is what

651
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 1: happened in Rwanda in the early nineteen nineties, where neighbors

652
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:04,880
Speaker 1: allowed themselves to be so swept up with fear and

653
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: anger that they started slaughtering their other neighbors, and it

654
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 1: will happen anywhere when we give into that. And so

655
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: for me, it became necessary to kind of combat that

656
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: in this narrative struggle. And at the heart of that

657
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 1: struggle in America at least, is our continuing challenge to

658
00:37:22,680 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: overcome the legacy of racial inequality, racial injustice. It doesn't

659
00:37:26,200 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: matter where you live in the Northwest, the southeast, north, midwest,

660
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 1: New England. If you live in America, you live in

661
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,040
Speaker 1: a space where there's a long history of racial inequality.

662
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: And I believe that history has created toxins pollution in

663
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,319
Speaker 1: the air that we all breathe in, and it keeps

664
00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:45,360
Speaker 1: us from being fully healthy. And it's largely in the

665
00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: air because we haven't committed to talking about to challenging

666
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 1: that narrative in the way that we need to. And

667
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 1: I think that's what we must do in this moment.

668
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,920
Speaker 1: I don't blame past generations. When you're enslaved, you have

669
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,320
Speaker 1: to focus on freedom. When you're being terrorized by lynching violence,

670
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,840
Speaker 1: you have to focus on security. In Montgomery the nineteen fifties,

671
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: when you're disenfranchised and excluded, you have to focus on

672
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: civil rights. But in twenty twenty five, we now have

673
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 1: the capacity, we have the opportunity, and I believe we

674
00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:19,440
Speaker 1: have the obligation to confront this narrative, to change this history,

675
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 1: to commit to a period of truth and justice, truth

676
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 1: and repair, truth and redemption, truth and restoration.

677
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:26,919
Speaker 2: That's what we haven't done.

678
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,240
Speaker 1: In South Africa after the collapse of apartheid, they committed

679
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:32,880
Speaker 1: to a process where the victims of apartheid could give

680
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: voice to their harm, where the perpetrators could give voice

681
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,319
Speaker 1: to their regret. You go to Berlin, you see a

682
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 1: city that's reckoned with the history of the Holocaust. Every

683
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: two hundred meters there's a monument, a memorial, a stone

684
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: that the National Memorial, the Memorial to Victims of the Holocaust,

685
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:50,880
Speaker 1: is in the center of the city. There are no

686
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,239
Speaker 1: atal fitnor statues in Berlin. There are no monuments of

687
00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:57,520
Speaker 1: memorials to the perpetrators of the Holocaust. And when I

688
00:38:57,520 --> 00:38:59,800
Speaker 1: looked at the landscape of Montgomery, this is the city

689
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,879
Speaker 1: that it has fifty nine markers and monuments through the Confederacy,

690
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: And when I moved here in the nineteen eighties, you

691
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: couldn't find the word slave, slavery and slaveman anywhere in

692
00:39:08,360 --> 00:39:11,399
Speaker 1: the public landscape. Our three largest high schools were named

693
00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:14,239
Speaker 1: after Jefferson Davis, Robert E. Lee, Sidney Lanier are all

694
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: Confederate leaders, and we didn't acknowledge the history of the

695
00:39:18,239 --> 00:39:20,759
Speaker 1: Civil rights terror and so.

696
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 2: We felt like that had to change.

697
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,120
Speaker 1: So we've done a lot of scholarship, and then we

698
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 1: felt like we needed to create cultural institutions that help

699
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: people reckon with the truth. I think the thing about

700
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and redemption, those

701
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 1: things are sequential. You've got to have the truth part

702
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: before you can get to the beautiful our words. And

703
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 1: when you skip the truth and you just try to

704
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: do repair and remedy, it doesn't work. So we believe

705
00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:46,719
Speaker 1: we have to create these truth telling spaces. When I

706
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,680
Speaker 1: came back from South Africa in Berlin, I couldn't think

707
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: of cultural institutions that were klent talking honestly about the

708
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 1: legacy of slavery or lynching. And that was the reason

709
00:39:56,400 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: why we created these spaces. And I'm excited. I manered

710
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: because people are coming and we're getting amazing feedback. And

711
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: this truth telling, I believe is what our generation must

712
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 1: commit to create the world that we want to create.

713
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,839
Speaker 1: I tell people the purpose of our museum and our

714
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: memorial and our new sculpture park. The purpose is to

715
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,439
Speaker 1: create a world where the children of our children are

716
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 1: not going to be presumed dangerous or guilty because they

717
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: their color. I want to create a world where no

718
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: one can go through what mister Hinton had to go through.

719
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 2: We have to create a.

720
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,319
Speaker 1: World where all kinds of people are liberated from the

721
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,279
Speaker 1: biggotree that comes when we accept these narratives of racial inequality.

722
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: And it's both black and white people. You know, the

723
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: white kids who were taught that they're better than everybody

724
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: else because they're white. They were basically taught that they

725
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 1: could only love a certain kind of person. They couldn't

726
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:47,919
Speaker 1: love anybody and everybody. They could only have a certain

727
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: kind of narrow existence. And I think that's cruel. We

728
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 1: want to break that down. But to do that, I

729
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: do think we have to go through this truth telling

730
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 1: process people. So it's hard, it's challenging, it's uncomfortable.

731
00:40:59,239 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 4: And I get it.

732
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,839
Speaker 1: But we can't make the truth comfortable just so people

733
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: will embrace. We've got to make it what it is.

734
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 1: And the reality is is that it's those uncomfortable truths

735
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: that inspire us to do the great things. It was

736
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 1: never comfortable to be off the buses for three hundred

737
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:16,439
Speaker 1: and eighty one days. It was not comfortable to walk

738
00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 1: from Selma to Montgomery. Nothing about justice and change and

739
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: progress in this country that's been meaningful has ever been comfortable, convenient,

740
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: or easy. And so that's what we want people to

741
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,800
Speaker 1: embrace if they're going to be part of this struggle.

742
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,640
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I'm really proud that we now have

743
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: a landscape that I hope can really advance this era

744
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 1: of truth and justice that I believe our nation desperately needs.

745
00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 5: It's not about collective guilt, it's about collective responsibility.

746
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 4: Yeah.

747
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,680
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time that we don't talk

748
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: about slavery and lynching and segregation because we want to

749
00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 1: punish America. We talk about these things because we want

750
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,759
Speaker 1: to liberate America. I believe something better is waiting for us.

751
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,080
Speaker 1: I think that there's something that feels more light freedom,

752
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: more like justice, more like equality and community, and.

753
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: It's waiting for us.

754
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:05,239
Speaker 1: But we can't get there if we don't have the

755
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: courage to turn back and deal with these burdens that

756
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,320
Speaker 1: are holding us back, this history that is holding us back.

757
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:14,720
Speaker 6: Anthea's want just to transition to you for a moments.

758
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 6: Your story, of course is at the Legacy Museum, and

759
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:20,600
Speaker 6: now we all know that you're this remarkable community educator

760
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 6: traveling the country to speak about your experiences, and of

761
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 6: course that also advocate against the death penalty. So thank

762
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,640
Speaker 6: you for that. When you stand in front of audiences,

763
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,919
Speaker 6: especially young audiences, and share what happened to you, what's

764
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,080
Speaker 6: the one thing you want them to especially remember.

765
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:40,120
Speaker 4: I won't be able to remember what I went through,

766
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 4: and I want them to realize that they have the

767
00:42:44,120 --> 00:42:47,799
Speaker 4: power to change it. Well, no one else could go

768
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 4: through what I went through. And I try my bis

769
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 4: to encourage them to get out and vote. If they're

770
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 4: not a registered voter, get out and vote and learn

771
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 4: to run for office. And I think if we can

772
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 4: get young people motivated to pick up politics and be

773
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,680
Speaker 4: in it for the right reason, then I believe that

774
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 4: hope that I have, mister Stevenson, have you have? Our

775
00:43:16,120 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 4: young people is yearning to do things great. And I'm

776
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 4: one of those who encouraged those young people to don't

777
00:43:26,280 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 4: sit back, don't just talk, get out and do. And

778
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: every time I leave a university or somewhere where I

779
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,880
Speaker 4: had the privious to talk to young people I love.

780
00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 4: Three months, four months, six months later, I get an

781
00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 4: email or letter saying, mister Hinton, I listened to you.

782
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 4: I decided that I'm going to law school and become

783
00:43:47,480 --> 00:43:51,160
Speaker 4: a lawyer and fight. This is what makes me get

784
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:54,280
Speaker 4: up every morning. Be hoped for that our young people

785
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,520
Speaker 4: is yearning to be great, and I hope that I

786
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 4: can just nudge them a little bit oh to be

787
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 4: that great. Wow.

788
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 7: Amazing Brian and your ted talk that has been viewed

789
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 7: over nine million times. You said each of us is

790
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:16,840
Speaker 7: more than the worst thing that we've ever done. After

791
00:44:16,880 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 7: representing over one hundred and forty people on death Row,

792
00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 7: what have they taught you about what's possible when we

793
00:44:24,280 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 7: see people's full humanity.

794
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's been the great joy of my life. It's

795
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 2: been a real privilege.

796
00:44:31,560 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 1: People don't think, you know, the choice I made was

797
00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:37,279
Speaker 1: a particularly smart one because we don't you know, you

798
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: don't make a lot of money and all of that.

799
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:43,360
Speaker 1: But I feel like I've been so privileged to stand

800
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,400
Speaker 1: next to people who have been condemned, who have been marginalized,

801
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,520
Speaker 1: who are disfavored, who are hated, Because what I've learned

802
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: is that when you stand next to someone who's hated

803
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,720
Speaker 1: and disfavored and condemned, you can sometimes harness the power

804
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 1: of grace, the power of mercy, and really do some

805
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: being beautiful. And I now believe, more than I've ever believed,

806
00:45:05,160 --> 00:45:07,359
Speaker 1: that we are all more than the worst thing we've

807
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,839
Speaker 1: ever done. I think if someone tells a lie, they're

808
00:45:09,920 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 1: not just a liar. I think if someone takes something,

809
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: they're not just a thief. I think even if you

810
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 1: kill someone.

811
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 2: You're not just a killer. And we're required to know

812
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,319
Speaker 2: the other things you are before we judge you.

813
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: And when you have that orientation, the most beautiful thing

814
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 1: that comes from that is that you're able to avoid hate.

815
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 1: You're able to avoid the trap of hating someone because

816
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: they hate you. The burden that comes with filling your

817
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,480
Speaker 1: heart with all of this violence and bigotry. That's the

818
00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,839
Speaker 1: power for me of doing the work that I get

819
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 1: to do. And then, you know, you get to meet

820
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 1: someone like an Anthony ray Hinton, someone whose remarkable heart

821
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:57,560
Speaker 1: and character and spirit is as glorious as reflective of

822
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: God's power and grace and mercy as any place you

823
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 1: could go. You could go to all kinds of places

824
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: in the world. You go around people with a lot

825
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: of money, a lot of resources, people who have this

826
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 1: or that, and you might not find anything precious and

827
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: rare and beautiful like the soul of this man. And

828
00:46:13,880 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: so I feel really, really privileged. And you know, we

829
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: want these cases banning mandatory life sentences for children. And

830
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:24,359
Speaker 1: the great privilege I have every day now at Eji

831
00:46:24,960 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: is that a lot of those folks who were told

832
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 1: they were going to die in prison when they were

833
00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: children are now out and they're working here. So I

834
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: can walk down the hall and see somebody who was

835
00:46:34,440 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 1: supposed to die in prison, and the office doing intakes.

836
00:46:37,480 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: I can get on the shuttle buses where a couple

837
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:41,320
Speaker 1: of my clients who were told they were going to

838
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 1: die in prison are now driving the shuttle bus. We've

839
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 1: got people working in the museum who were sentence to

840
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,000
Speaker 1: life imprisonment without parole.

841
00:46:48,760 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 2: I tell people, I haven't made a lot of money,

842
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,080
Speaker 2: but I've made more than money.

843
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:55,560
Speaker 1: Couldn't ever buy. And being able to see what justice

844
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:59,120
Speaker 1: can create in the lives of people who've been treated unjusted.

845
00:46:58,840 --> 00:46:59,880
Speaker 4: Beautiful.

846
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:04,920
Speaker 6: Well, Brian Anthony, thank you on our collective behalf, and

847
00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:09,440
Speaker 6: thank you on behalf of humanity for this incredibly powerful conversation.

848
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 6: We are inspired by your love, your conviction, your passion,

849
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 6: your energy. What began as a letter from a death

850
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 6: row inmate became a sixteen year fight for justice was

851
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:24,359
Speaker 6: started obviously just as a regular lawyer client relationship has

852
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,279
Speaker 6: become a bond of friendship, love and admiration and just

853
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 6: true partnership between the two of you. We've also been

854
00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 6: educated on the fact that the rate of error for

855
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 6: death row inmates is one and eight, the quote that

856
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 6: those without the capital often get the punishments. But you've

857
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,040
Speaker 6: also inspired us to look at the stars in the

858
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,319
Speaker 6: moon every evening, to go walk and dance in the rain,

859
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 6: and never take for granted those things that we have

860
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,520
Speaker 6: the ability to enjoy in life. Thank you for showing

861
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 6: us what's possible when somebody refuses to accept injustice. And

862
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 6: both of you thank you for being shining examples people

863
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 6: who refuse to live in despair but instead live with

864
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:06,800
Speaker 6: the hope.

865
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 2: A lot of gratitude to you both. Thank you, it's

866
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: great to be with you.

867
00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 7: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you so very much.

868
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:16,120
Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us.

869
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:20,319
Speaker 3: If you enjoyed today's conversation, subscribe, share, and follow us

870
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:24,120
Speaker 3: on at my Legacy Movement on social media and YouTube.

871
00:48:24,719 --> 00:48:28,800
Speaker 3: New episodes drop every Tuesday, with bonus content every Thursday.

872
00:48:29,480 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 3: At its core, this podcast honors doctor Kin's vision of

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Speaker 3: the beloved community and the power of connection. A Legacy

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Speaker 3: Plus Studio production distributed by iHeartMedia creator and executive producer

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Speaker 3: Suzanne Hayward Come executive producer Lisa Lyle. Listen on the

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Speaker 3: iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.