Speaker 1: All right, everyone, welcome to the episode of the Market
Speaker 1: Disruptors Show, and today I'm joined by Stephan Lavera. He
Speaker 1: is the host of the Stephan Lavera podcast and he's
Speaker 1: also the co founder of Ministry of Nodes, and we're
Speaker 1: going to dive into that today. I'm excited to have
Speaker 1: you on, Stephan, thanks so much for joining. Well, thanks
Speaker 1: for inviting me, Mark, Yeah, good so um. Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I've been I've been listening to your stuff for quite
Speaker 1: a while and man, you put out so much good
Speaker 1: content for so long. So I'm happy to have you
Speaker 1: on and dive into kind of this this stuff. And
Speaker 1: I want to start, well, I guess let's start in
Speaker 1: the beginning. And you know, as I said, I've been
Speaker 1: following you for a long time, a lot of people
Speaker 1: maybe don't know, so just give us a little bit
Speaker 1: of a background on what you've been doing and what
Speaker 1: you're working on. Yeah. Sure. So I am mostly known
Speaker 1: as a bitcoin podcast, so I interview many of the
Speaker 1: lading lots in the bitcoin world and also Australian economics,
Speaker 1: and so I take an approach where I try to
Speaker 1: interview people who are quite technical themselves, but then try
Speaker 1: to break that down for people into the at a
Speaker 1: level that let's say, the intelligent layman can understand. And
Speaker 1: obviously it's a bitcoin, you know, focused show, but I
Speaker 1: try to work in certain economic aspects of it as well,
Speaker 1: because I think you can't understand bitcoin without meshing a
Speaker 1: good understanding of the economics and the technology together. And
Speaker 1: so my show is one of the well known bitcoin
Speaker 1: specific shows in the space, and I think many people
Speaker 1: who are themselves bitcoin builders and so on our listeners
Speaker 1: as well of the show. So that's probably the main
Speaker 1: thing I'm known for. And then the other project I
Speaker 1: have is Ministry of Nerds, which is think of it
Speaker 1: like if the podcast is for interviews with leading people
Speaker 1: in the space, Ministry of Nerds is me and my
Speaker 1: co founder Katan. It's our effits to try to put
Speaker 1: some of these things into practice for people and give
Speaker 1: them guides and you know, exact step by step. Here's
Speaker 1: what you do, Here's how you do it. Here how
Speaker 1: you take back your financial self sovereignty. Yeah great, and
Speaker 1: we definitely need that, and so I want to dive
Speaker 1: into that song. But before we do it, seems like,
Speaker 1: as you said, right, you've talked about some Austrian econ
Speaker 1: and it seemed like you were really focused on that
Speaker 1: and it's kind of shifted a little bit, but I
Speaker 1: want to dive into that first. So I know you've
Speaker 1: talked a lot about Austrian economics, and so you know,
Speaker 1: I spend my time talking about why bitcoin is important,
Speaker 1: and so obviously I spend a lot of time on
Speaker 1: the economic side, the philosophy side, the politics side, um,
Speaker 1: And it seems like Austrian economics kind of encompasses most
Speaker 1: of that. So tell me, I guess how you see
Speaker 1: that economic philosophy. Um. Hey, just a real quick interruption
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Speaker 1: kind of what we have now and why that system
Speaker 1: you think might be better? Right, So I came from
Speaker 1: I come from that perspective in terms of an Austrian
Speaker 1: economic analysis of the world, and I guess it informs
Speaker 1: my worldview and that is part of I inject that
Speaker 1: into my interviews and people I interview. So in terms
Speaker 1: of what's different about the Austrian perspective versus let's say
Speaker 1: the current mainstream perspective is more like Austrians see no
Speaker 1: role for central banking, as in no productive role for
Speaker 1: central banking. It's seen as like a political um outgrowth
Speaker 1: of the state, and that it can cause all kinds
Speaker 1: of problems in the market, which we call it's referred
Speaker 1: to as the boom bust cycle or also known as
Speaker 1: Austrian business cycle theory. So Austrian economists tend to be
Speaker 1: you know, they are more free markets. They believe in
Speaker 1: free market capitalism. They believe and they talk more about
Speaker 1: this idea of bottom up spontaneous order, right, And if
Speaker 1: we're going to get a bit more technical, it's more
Speaker 1: like it's really looking specifically at the choices and actions
Speaker 1: that humans make and how can you deduce them. So
Speaker 1: the methods specifically is kind of more like think a
Speaker 1: bit more like logically deducing certain truths and understanding and
Speaker 1: applying those into the into the real world and trying
Speaker 1: to use that to understand a little bit better what's
Speaker 1: going on now in practice. What does that mean? It
Speaker 1: means anti central bank, anti fet money, generally, pro free market, generally,
Speaker 1: looking for ways to articulate and explain why we should
Speaker 1: have free trade, we should encourage, uh, the productivity and
Speaker 1: production through accumulation of capital, as opposed to maybe a
Speaker 1: more Kinesian point of view, which is more like consumption first,
Speaker 1: whereas in Austrian might tend to focus a little bit
Speaker 1: more on this idea that no, you need to save
Speaker 1: and then be able to produce more and then you
Speaker 1: can consume more. So I guess that hopefully that helps. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you said something that probably put a whole bunch of
Speaker 1: people on their head. And you kind of came straight
Speaker 1: out and you said that no central banks. And then
Speaker 1: then you said something that even went a little bit
Speaker 1: further that probably really threw people off, and you said
Speaker 1: that central banks cause boom and bus cycles. But it
Speaker 1: seems that the common belief today is that it's free
Speaker 1: market capitalism it causes booms and bus cycles. So do
Speaker 1: you want to explain that? Yeah, sure, that's a great question.
Speaker 1: And so I think the Austrians, when you read them,
Speaker 1: it's think of it like this. We would we should
Speaker 1: expect to see just in normal capitalism, some businesses growing
Speaker 1: and some failing, just as normal as you would expect.
Speaker 1: That's just normal. But why is it that we see
Speaker 1: a cluster of errors in a certain area over time
Speaker 1: and so historically, whether that's the dot com bubble or
Speaker 1: whether it's you know, housing bubble or et cetera, why
Speaker 1: is it that we see that? And it's actually that
Speaker 1: there's there's a reason, there's an underlying cause for that. Now,
Speaker 1: if you listen to the mainstream media, they might say
Speaker 1: something like, oh see, it's just you know, it just
Speaker 1: comes and goes. It's like seasons. It's it's it's it's
Speaker 1: just going to be with us for all the time,
Speaker 1: and we just have to deal with it. And the
Speaker 1: central bank needs to step in and manage it, and
Speaker 1: they need to try to have stable prices and look
Speaker 1: after the employment rate and these kinds of things, where
Speaker 1: from an Austrian perspective is to try and look back
Speaker 1: and wait a minute, what's the cause of that, Try
Speaker 1: and trace back what is the underlying cause of this?
Speaker 1: And so in the Austrian view, it's more like hold on.
Speaker 1: It's actually credit expansion that drives all of this stuff.
Speaker 1: So put simply, government interventions such as the existence of
Speaker 1: the central bank, the lender of last resort, some of
Speaker 1: these things. They push the interest rate, they artificially depress
Speaker 1: it will be below what it would be in a
Speaker 1: true free market. And so in that sense, it's causes
Speaker 1: people to get the wrong signal. Right, So prices are
Speaker 1: like a signal, they're like an information. They're like saying, hey,
Speaker 1: come here, use this product, use these resources because there's
Speaker 1: a profit opportunity. And if there's a profit opportunity, you're
Speaker 1: being productive for the rest of society's that's kind of
Speaker 1: one way to think of it. And so central banking
Speaker 1: is viewed as like a government intervention into capitalism rather
Speaker 1: than being a function of capitalism. And so in that view,
Speaker 1: it's more like central banking helps enable government to kind
Speaker 1: of take more command over the economy, and so it
Speaker 1: essentially drives this boom and bust cycle because a lot
Speaker 1: of entrepreneurs get given the wrong signal. In some sense,
Speaker 1: it's like that, it's like the markets signals have been
Speaker 1: messed with, and in doing so, all these entrepreneurs run
Speaker 1: into a certain area. And you know, for the last
Speaker 1: forty or fifty years or whatever, it's been a lot
Speaker 1: of that has been property. Right, think how many people
Speaker 1: are property entrepreneurs? Well, it's not clear that that is
Speaker 1: actually like that that is what would have happened if
Speaker 1: we were living under a fully free market with zero
Speaker 1: government central bank. And so I think that is essentially
Speaker 1: coming around to this idea that if it weren't for
Speaker 1: government central banking, we would not see this boom and
Speaker 1: bust cycle that we have seen every whatever six or
Speaker 1: seven years historically. Yeah, yeah, I think you know part
Speaker 1: of it. These are complex subjects to understand because you
Speaker 1: have to kind of have disciplines in several areas. And
Speaker 1: so you mentioned earlier, like you know, human action, and
Speaker 1: so like you kind of have to understand like human
Speaker 1: motivation and human action in that human intent, because as
Speaker 1: you said, it is a little bit like cycles, right,
Speaker 1: cycles do come and go. I love vanilla ice cream,
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I want chocolate. I don't
Speaker 1: know why I want chocolate, I just do. And so
Speaker 1: we're like, we're gonna want different things, and so there
Speaker 1: are going to be booms and bus and that's just natural.
Speaker 1: Some businesses starting, some fail. But I think to your point,
Speaker 1: they're creating this artificial demand which forces everybody or or
Speaker 1: entices everyone into certain sectors, which caused them to get
Speaker 1: way bigger and then crash, which leads to bigger booms
Speaker 1: and busses. That kind of what you're saying. Yes, that's
Speaker 1: a great way to put it. Yeah, and uh, and
Speaker 1: it's complex. But at the same time, it seems like
Speaker 1: the FED tries to make it so complex that we
Speaker 1: don't understand and that we have to depend on them,
Speaker 1: when really it, as you said, if you break it
Speaker 1: down into those principles, it's actually pretty easy to understand. Um.
Speaker 1: It seems like what about as an economic principle, it
Speaker 1: seems like the FED also is a way that maybe
Speaker 1: the the elite use it to transfer wealth as opposed
Speaker 1: and control as opposed to really trying to free the system.
Speaker 1: Where is as Austrian kind of I guess, as you said,
Speaker 1: leads to more free market. I mean, there's are a
Speaker 1: big difference between like free and captured controlled in those
Speaker 1: two systems. Absolutely, So the way an Austrian would most
Speaker 1: Austrian economists would view what's gone on over this last
Speaker 1: century or so is essentially that the state keeps expanding
Speaker 1: and that what happens. And this is a bit where
Speaker 1: this is where it gets a little bit more confusing,
Speaker 1: because when people look at what we've had, they say, oh, look,
Speaker 1: look the big businesses are in bed with the government.
Speaker 1: And in some sense Austrians agree with that because they're saying,
Speaker 1: what we want really is less government intervention. But really
Speaker 1: what happens in practice nowadays is more like big business
Speaker 1: will lobby with the government and the incentives just kind
Speaker 1: of work for them to try to set up a
Speaker 1: system that cacoon themselves from outside competition. And so even
Speaker 1: things like you know, the Federal Reserve and so on.
Speaker 1: It often ends up being that the existing big players,
Speaker 1: once they've gotten big, they try to lobby the government
Speaker 1: and they will try to say hey, oh and and
Speaker 1: they might cauch it in very noble sounding language. They
Speaker 1: might say like, oh, look, um, it would be very
Speaker 1: unsafe to not have regulation on this industry. So let's
Speaker 1: have regulation on this industry. But here's what we're gonna do.
Speaker 1: We're gonna make the regulation kind of fit just around
Speaker 1: me and make a nice little cocoon around me so
Speaker 1: that I can entrench myself against new competitors. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: in some sense, that happens in many industries, and banking
Speaker 1: is just one of them. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like
Speaker 1: regulations are always meant to kind of entrench those positions. Um,
Speaker 1: I've seen it firsthand. I was. I was really involved
Speaker 1: in the early days of the internet, and I remember,
Speaker 1: I forget what it was called. Now, all these bills,
Speaker 1: they're bad, but they have these good sounding aims. And
Speaker 1: it was a bill that Amazon had put forth saying
Speaker 1: that in the United States, if you were selling products online,
Speaker 1: you didn't have to collect sales tax to every single
Speaker 1: jurisdiction that you were selling to there, there'll be no
Speaker 1: way to do that. And so they put this bill
Speaker 1: and it was like the Fair Tax Collection Act or
Speaker 1: something like that, and of course Amazon is the one
Speaker 1: that pushed it, and they said everyone had to start
Speaker 1: collecting tax but of course the small guy there's no
Speaker 1: way they could do that. Only Amazon could do that.
Speaker 1: And so we see that kind of that. That kind
Speaker 1: of thing happened all the time. But it seems like
Speaker 1: it seems like we've moved now to where everybody wants
Speaker 1: to have like this free or actually say this this
Speaker 1: risk free, this safe society where everybody succeeds, and Austrian
Speaker 1: is kind of like it's free, but it's not safe.
Speaker 1: And so I think it looks like you kind of
Speaker 1: have to have this trade offs and it seems like
Speaker 1: more people are opting for safety over freedom at this point.
Speaker 1: Is that what you're seeing? Absolutely, and I I am
Speaker 1: soly in the camp where I guess put simply, yeah,
Speaker 1: I value freedom over safety is um if you will. Now.
Speaker 1: I think the irony is, though, is that those people
Speaker 1: who were saying safety, you know, safety is and people
Speaker 1: are almost in some way without realizing, they are jeopardizing
Speaker 1: their long term safety anyway. Yeah, right, Whereas I think
Speaker 1: if we were to have that society that prioritized freedom
Speaker 1: and in this case more specifically private property rights and
Speaker 1: our rights, I think we would actually, in some kind
Speaker 1: of counter intuitive way, we would actually make society more
Speaker 1: prosperous and more safe. Anyway. It's just that what happens
Speaker 1: is government becomes this kind of big bureaucracy, if it
Speaker 1: starts to impose one size fits all rules on everyone,
Speaker 1: it becomes owners it becomes high tax and so those
Speaker 1: of us who and you know, want freedom. And it's
Speaker 1: a weird thing because it's almost like these the views
Speaker 1: that maybe you and I are talking about now, they
Speaker 1: might be perhaps in the minority now, but a hundred
Speaker 1: years ago they probably weren't in that much of a minority.
Speaker 1: It's just that of the time, it just the values
Speaker 1: the culture of society, whether whether in the US or
Speaker 1: here in Australia elsewhere in the around the world, it's
Speaker 1: like the values have eroded in some way, and so
Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tricky situation, but I think there
Speaker 1: is kind of like that maybe there is a bit
Speaker 1: of a pendulum sort of swing aspect to this, and
Speaker 1: I think to some extent, we're seeing the pendulum kind
Speaker 1: of go to the one end, and I think, now
Speaker 1: we're gonna, We're gonna eventually it will come back the
Speaker 1: other way. There's a book called The Pendulum. That's a
Speaker 1: great book. I don't know if you were just saying
Speaker 1: that or if you've heard of the book. I haven't,
Speaker 1: but it basically talks about it's called the pendulum, and
Speaker 1: it talks about these forty year swings where we go
Speaker 1: from a week a WEE cycle, so that's WE collectivism, globalism,
Speaker 1: and then it swings to a ME cycle, which is individualism, decentralization.
Speaker 1: So every forty years it goes so it's an eighty
Speaker 1: year cycle back and forth. And the last time we
Speaker 1: when we shifted from the decentralized the ME was at
Speaker 1: the end of like World War two, which is when
Speaker 1: the U N God founded, the EU first started getting founded,
Speaker 1: all those things. And right now I think one is
Speaker 1: the peak of that WE cycle, and then it starts
Speaker 1: to shift back to a ME individualism decentralization cycle, and
Speaker 1: then in the book they trace it back thousands of years.
Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting. But um, what I was gonna say
Speaker 1: is like when you talked about Austrian nicon, you were
Speaker 1: talking about how it really breaks things down to their
Speaker 1: most basic basic, right, So there's like natural laws, and
Speaker 1: it seems like we kind of know this because if
Speaker 1: we look at nature we can see so if we
Speaker 1: look at animals, for example, even if you go to
Speaker 1: the state parks in the US, they did not have
Speaker 1: a signus says don't feed the animals because the animals
Speaker 1: become dependent on the food and they can't go find
Speaker 1: food on their own, right, And so like we we
Speaker 1: know this and some some some instance, right, And so
Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like if you have what what your
Speaker 1: thoughts are on this, because I look at it like,
Speaker 1: let's say, if you're a lion, right, Like you're a
Speaker 1: free lion and you're in the jungle and you have
Speaker 1: to fight for your territory all the time, and you
Speaker 1: may starve, but it's a rough life, but you're free.
Speaker 1: Or you could be a lion in a cage and
Speaker 1: get your antibiotics and get your one meal a day,
Speaker 1: but you're in a cage. But the problem is once
Speaker 1: you're in that cage for years or a generation, you
Speaker 1: don't really go back to the wild. And so it's
Speaker 1: not it doesn't seem like it's gonna be that easy
Speaker 1: to just like switch it back off, Like do you
Speaker 1: I mean, have you thought about that? Like, how do
Speaker 1: we transition out of this? I am it's a hard
Speaker 1: question to be honest. I think it's one of those
Speaker 1: things where you have to laid by example, And so
Speaker 1: I think to some extent, bitcoin people are trying to
Speaker 1: laid by that example and say, no, let's take responsibility.
Speaker 1: We're gonna take responsibility for ourselves. We're gonna try to
Speaker 1: build our communities and give people the freedom back and
Speaker 1: encourage them to take their power back where they can
Speaker 1: and you know, go and live free where you can,
Speaker 1: little by little, Yeah, exactly. And I think to some
Speaker 1: extent it's I view bitcoin as ultimately it is a
Speaker 1: technology that tips the scales in the favor of the individual.
Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of like the printing press came
Speaker 1: out and it tipped this it changed the balance of
Speaker 1: the power, and I think bitcoin is just like that.
Speaker 1: It's going to tip the balance more towards individuals and
Speaker 1: families and communities versus governments. And so I think what
Speaker 1: that like because I think of it like you know
Speaker 1: how people talk about that idea of politics is downstream
Speaker 1: of culture. I think upstream of culture is economics. And
Speaker 1: if we have bad you know, weak or sound, you know,
Speaker 1: not fear out money, easy money, easy money that's easy
Speaker 1: to create, that causes the cultural degeneration. And then so
Speaker 1: I think the next swing back is the hard money direction.
Speaker 1: So I think it's kind of like you change the economics,
Speaker 1: you change the culture, and then you change politics, and
Speaker 1: I think that is sort of the cycle that we're
Speaker 1: coming back into. As you mentioned, Yeah, that's that's real good.
Speaker 1: I actually I love that. You know, I'm sure you've
Speaker 1: seen the same, right, We've seen however, many people coming
Speaker 1: into bitcoin, and when they change their time preference, it
Speaker 1: starts to change their whole life. And you see it
Speaker 1: over and over. I say it myself other people that
Speaker 1: it's changed their entire thought process of the way they
Speaker 1: view the world, the way they spend their money, save
Speaker 1: their money, work, all these things have changed. And so
Speaker 1: it really does start with that economic view, I guess exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think it. You know, as as my friend's safety
Speaker 1: and says, the most important trades are the ones that
Speaker 1: you make with your future self and you know, you
Speaker 1: have to start thinking more about, you know, your future
Speaker 1: and ideally when you have a family, your children and
Speaker 1: your grandchildren and your legacy and those kinds of things.
Speaker 1: And many people when they come into the bitcoin will
Speaker 1: they start really thinking more about these kinds of future
Speaker 1: opportunity costs because they weren't all that kind of saving
Speaker 1: type who thought about the future. But bitcoin kind of
Speaker 1: forced that cost on to them because now it made
Speaker 1: it more apparent that, hey, if I spend these bitcoins
Speaker 1: now I'm Liz, I'm missing out on huge, huge games
Speaker 1: in the future. So now I need to start really
Speaker 1: thinking about that. And maybe hey, just another quick interruption
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Speaker 1: play long term games with long term people. Yeah, I'll
Speaker 1: was listening to Safe today and he was talking about
Speaker 1: how time, how everything is built on economic principles. That's
Speaker 1: kind of exactly what you're saying, and the old and
Speaker 1: it's all based off of scarcity and the ultimate economic principle,
Speaker 1: the ultimate asset, the ultimate scarcity is time because time
Speaker 1: is the only thing we can't go get more of.
Speaker 1: So I spent my bitcoin, I can go get more bitcoin, right,
Speaker 1: I can go get more gold, I can go get
Speaker 1: more whatever, but I can't go back and get more time.
Speaker 1: So it's like the ultimate scarcity. And if you look
Speaker 1: at and so I guess if you changed the economic
Speaker 1: view and like, look at people, most people today probably
Speaker 1: don't value their time, right, they squander their time waste
Speaker 1: or time They don't even know where their time went.
Speaker 1: They're like, dude, where did my whole day go? U? Exactly?
Speaker 1: All right? Where did my month go? Or whatever? Right?
Speaker 1: And so like, yeah, you start to change that economic
Speaker 1: it changed the world view. I like that. I hadn't
Speaker 1: really thought of it that way. Um, yeah, good point.
Speaker 1: So I'm curious. You used to talk a lot about
Speaker 1: Austrian economics. I'm curious. Did you come into Austrian economics
Speaker 1: after bitcoin? Did bitcoin change your worldview into that or
Speaker 1: you had it before? I was already into it. So
Speaker 1: the thing for me is I was maybe fourteen or fifteen,
Speaker 1: and I was like on I r C and this
Speaker 1: guy kept linking to mrs Daily articles. Right, I was
Speaker 1: on some politics channel and that that was my first
Speaker 1: exposure to Austrian economics. And that from that was how
Speaker 1: I went down the Austrian economics rabbit hole. And then
Speaker 1: later in my life, obviously bitcoin came up and I
Speaker 1: was like, Wow, this is amazing, this is this is it,
Speaker 1: this is the thing, this is you know, it's not
Speaker 1: everything we need, but it's probably the most important technology
Speaker 1: for creating more freedom. So those of us who are
Speaker 1: more liberty minded, it's a very very important technology. So
Speaker 1: for me, I was already into Austrian economics. I was
Speaker 1: already anti central making and that for me was what
Speaker 1: helped me see so much value in bitcoin. And so
Speaker 1: funnily enough, I have a lot of listeners who came
Speaker 1: in from the bitcoin side, and then because of listening
Speaker 1: to me and reading safety and you know some of
Speaker 1: the other people, and you know, reading the work of
Speaker 1: other people in the space, they also went down the
Speaker 1: Austrian rabbit hole. So I see it as part of
Speaker 1: my role as to help educate my listeners both on
Speaker 1: bitcoin technology but also Austrian economics. So you know, sometimes
Speaker 1: it's kind of the balance shifts a little bit and
Speaker 1: I kind of end up doing more bitcoin text stuff.
Speaker 1: This is kind of economic and macro and history elements
Speaker 1: of it, but I try to you know, it's a
Speaker 1: bit of a balance, um, but certainly it's you know,
Speaker 1: some people come in bitcoin first and other people were
Speaker 1: more Austrian and libertarian first. Yeah, so let's jump into
Speaker 1: that a little bit, because I spend all my time
Speaker 1: focusing on the big picture of the y stuff, and
Speaker 1: I know we had a ton of people that have
Speaker 1: come into the space recently with the price shooting higher,
Speaker 1: the number go up. Technology, as we say, Um, and
Speaker 1: so I'm getting flooded with questions on you know, more
Speaker 1: technical in nature, so how to store it, where to
Speaker 1: store it, you know, how to secure all those types
Speaker 1: of things. So I guess where where would the average
Speaker 1: person start? Like, how do you think of Let's let's
Speaker 1: let's start with storage first. So somebody wants to come
Speaker 1: in and they buy bitcoin, and they can it's on
Speaker 1: the exchange. They bought it, and they could either leave
Speaker 1: it there, or they could take it off and put
Speaker 1: it onto some sort of a walle at, hot wallet,
Speaker 1: hardware wallet. All of those things have trade offs and
Speaker 1: risks associated with them. So how should the average person
Speaker 1: think through that and try to decide how they want
Speaker 1: to move forward? Yeah, great question. So what I would
Speaker 1: say is for many people, they just start on an exchange,
Speaker 1: right and fine. Um, what I would say is start small.
Speaker 1: You know a lot of people get very what's the word,
Speaker 1: It's like analysis paralysis, Right, They're just like, oh, I
Speaker 1: don't even know where to start. I'm just not going
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave it there. It's like, no, just
Speaker 1: one step at a time. Start small, But I would say,
Speaker 1: start with a phone wallet, So on your phone, on
Speaker 1: your if you got an Android phone, go to Samurai wallet.
Speaker 1: And if you've got an iPhone, look at Blue wallet.
Speaker 1: So I would say those are some good suggestions, and
Speaker 1: just start by withdrawing say dollars from your exchange or
Speaker 1: brokerage service or whatever. Start with that, and then once
Speaker 1: you get more comfortable, and once the value, once you
Speaker 1: your value starts rising in terms of Bitcoin terms, let's
Speaker 1: say over a couple of thousand dollars, Well, then you
Speaker 1: want to start looking at getting a hardware wallet. And
Speaker 1: then okay, now you might look at a cold card,
Speaker 1: let's say a coin guide dot com, that kind of
Speaker 1: thing UM or a ledger or treaser and that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. And then after that you might want to
Speaker 1: start learning okay, how do I run it with my
Speaker 1: own bitcoin node um and some of those elements of it.
Speaker 1: And then as you get too higher values, well then okay,
Speaker 1: now you've got to start thinking about multi signature. And
Speaker 1: so what I would suggest kind of as we speak
Speaker 1: today January, if you are a beginner or an intermediate
Speaker 1: level Bitcoin user in terms of your technical ability, I
Speaker 1: would suggest you look for one of the guided service
Speaker 1: providers for multi signature. So this is so like my
Speaker 1: podcast onnsor is unchanged capital and or another option is
Speaker 1: cast Us. So they're probably the two big options in
Speaker 1: terms of guided helping you do it easy with multi signature?
Speaker 1: How how how much? How much do I need to
Speaker 1: have before I need to start worrying about something like that?
Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned a couple of thousand dollars uh
Speaker 1: in a heart in a in a in a phone wallet,
Speaker 1: and a soft like a hot wallet. Um, so at
Speaker 1: what level do I want to start worried about like
Speaker 1: solutions like that? Yeah, that's a hard question. I think
Speaker 1: it's one of those like how long is a pace
Speaker 1: of string questions? I think So, I think it really
Speaker 1: comes down to the person's like own I mean, they
Speaker 1: have to decide what their own risk tolerances. So like
Speaker 1: if I keep it on the exchange, then I don't
Speaker 1: have to worry about the security, but I have to
Speaker 1: worry about them getting there, them watching about their security.
Speaker 1: Right if they get hacked or the government seizes them
Speaker 1: or freezes them, or they locked me out for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: I have to worry about that. But if I take
Speaker 1: it now, I have to worry about security, right, So
Speaker 1: like there's like trade offs with each one. Um, so
Speaker 1: I guess different exchanges have different risk profiles as well.
Speaker 1: Um right, yeah, yeah, So I would say you just
Speaker 1: gotta stot and like we in bitcoin with very much encourage,
Speaker 1: self custody. But it's a learning journey, and I understand
Speaker 1: it's at the start it can be very daunting. So
Speaker 1: I guess high level, if I had to give some guidance,
Speaker 1: I would say, you you want to just take incremental steps,
Speaker 1: and so going from hardware wallet to thinking about okay,
Speaker 1: do I need to start thinking about multi signature. If
Speaker 1: I had to just kind of pick a number out
Speaker 1: of the air, I would say maybe six figures. Once
Speaker 1: you're getting over six figures worth of bitcoin, you probably
Speaker 1: want to start thinking about multi signature. And then here's
Speaker 1: the here's the factor, right, because with bitcoin it is
Speaker 1: extremely volatiles. I'm sure you and the listeners know it
Speaker 1: can in the space of a few months, it can
Speaker 1: go ten x and that's not like that has happened.
Speaker 1: So let's say you had you had a bitcoin stack
Speaker 1: of hundred thousand or two hundred thousand in the space
Speaker 1: of a few months during a bull run that could
Speaker 1: be a million, two million or more. And so you've
Speaker 1: really got to start thinking about UM multi signature once
Speaker 1: you get to those kinds of levels, and so that's
Speaker 1: where it's worth thinking about. So it's but it's a
Speaker 1: journey and you've got to learn about you know, backups
Speaker 1: and those aspects of it also to make sure and
Speaker 1: then you've got to like it's there's a there's a pathway,
Speaker 1: but you have to think about things like backups. You
Speaker 1: have to think about things like inheritance. If you were
Speaker 1: to pass, how would your heirs or your family get
Speaker 1: the coins. So that's why I would say for a
Speaker 1: beginner and intermediate level you want to look at using
Speaker 1: a guided solution, and advanced level you can do like
Speaker 1: a d I Y multi see like with your own
Speaker 1: using spector wallet and some of these UM solutions or
Speaker 1: electroum or so when you say when you when you're
Speaker 1: breaking those down, you're not talking about how much money
Speaker 1: you have. You're talking about what your technical ability is.
Speaker 1: So if you feel more technically advanced, you might want
Speaker 1: to set it up on your own UM, but if
Speaker 1: you're not technically advanced, then you want to host it
Speaker 1: or guided service exactly. Yeah. And so the way I
Speaker 1: would see it is if I look at kind of
Speaker 1: the market and the current solutions, that's based on you know,
Speaker 1: the current level of support, the current level of ease
Speaker 1: of use, the current software, the hardware that works with it.
Speaker 1: I would say four. Now, beginner, an intermediate level in
Speaker 1: a technical ability should be you probably are better off
Speaker 1: with a guided provider. And then yeah, so that and
Speaker 1: that can help you because if you start using multi signature,
Speaker 1: it's like you know, those nuclear codes, you need two
Speaker 1: of two or whatever. So in in bitcoin, the the
Speaker 1: typical ones that you know, an individual like you and
Speaker 1: me might be using. You might have at two of
Speaker 1: three set up, or you might have a three of
Speaker 1: five setups. So you might have you know, yeah to
Speaker 1: um yeah, basically three hardware worlds and you need two
Speaker 1: of those to spend. And so the idea is that
Speaker 1: you would keep those in different locations, so you might
Speaker 1: have say one hardware wallet at home and one in
Speaker 1: a safety deposit box somewhere or a bank vault or
Speaker 1: something like that. And then in that example, let's say
Speaker 1: you went with unchanged capital, then unchanged capital and hold
Speaker 1: the third key. In that scenario and then so you
Speaker 1: could either sign it purely on your own, or you
Speaker 1: could sign one key and you could ask that that
Speaker 1: service provider to do the third you know, that additional
Speaker 1: signature for you. Now, So like I mean, if I
Speaker 1: if I have enough problems keeping track of one key,
Speaker 1: now I got to keep track of three keys. So
Speaker 1: does that I mean, does does that just make it harder?
Speaker 1: It does, but it also provides you so much more security.
Speaker 1: It means just so much less likely to get hacked.
Speaker 1: You're so much less likely to be stolen from. Because
Speaker 1: now even if somebody, if an arm armed robber turns
Speaker 1: up to your house, you literally cannot spend from the
Speaker 1: setup that you've got. They would have to take you
Speaker 1: to the bank vault or to the safety deposit box.
Speaker 1: And that just it just raises the level in terms
Speaker 1: of who could easily and feasibly attack you. Now, there's
Speaker 1: trade offs with all of this stuff, right, because if
Speaker 1: you use one of the guided service providers, you have
Speaker 1: to give up some info in terms of privacy, and
Speaker 1: so you know that's something you have to think about.
Speaker 1: You might think, well, you know what, if I'm relatively
Speaker 1: less well known, maybe I would get away with just
Speaker 1: using single signature, using my own set up, Whereas let's say,
Speaker 1: if you're a if you're a public influencer with the
Speaker 1: name and someone maybe for that kind of person, you
Speaker 1: really should be looking at multi signature because it just
Speaker 1: gives you such an increased level of security. Now, the
Speaker 1: good the good news here ultimately though, is that bitcoin
Speaker 1: gives people choices and it makes it so that you
Speaker 1: have this incredibly asymmetric defensive technology because it's like relatively
Speaker 1: a small cost for you, but it makes it a
Speaker 1: very very high cost for the attacker. And so that
Speaker 1: is the overall good news here that you know you
Speaker 1: can do this. It just takes a little bit of
Speaker 1: It takes a little bit of work and research and
Speaker 1: personal responsibility, but I think in the end, at the
Speaker 1: end of the day, it's worth it. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: and that brings us back to where we started, right,
Speaker 1: So start being lazy, invest a little bit of your
Speaker 1: time into improving your life and it makes a big difference. Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm going down that path on my own downloaded
Speaker 1: specter and of trying to set up the multi SIGs,
Speaker 1: and it's a little overwhelming. I'm not gonna lie and
Speaker 1: I've been I started internet business in two thousand one,
Speaker 1: I've been online ever since. I'm pretty technically savvy. I
Speaker 1: consider myself to be pretty technically savvy. And it's still
Speaker 1: it's still still a good amount of work. So um
Speaker 1: for those types of deals, then I guess we could
Speaker 1: maybe plug your other side, but you actually help people
Speaker 1: do that as it right? Yes, So Ministry of nons
Speaker 1: dot com dotau is the website for that. So Katan
Speaker 1: and I we basically we just make free guides for
Speaker 1: people to learn how to self custody. So and we
Speaker 1: offer just kind of consulting for people who want to
Speaker 1: do a call with us and help will will help
Speaker 1: talk them through that if they want to try to
Speaker 1: do it in a more self sovereign way. Um. So
Speaker 1: that's just one of the things we offer. And just
Speaker 1: like other guides and things like that. So is the
Speaker 1: is the is the security flaw in the vice itself?
Speaker 1: So if I use a hardware wall er, whether that's
Speaker 1: treas or or a ledger, is it is it? Well?
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't even know how to ask
Speaker 1: this question. I mean, I guess there's just so many
Speaker 1: security holes that we don't know so instead of trusting
Speaker 1: one device, if we split it up, then we're basically
Speaker 1: um splitting up our risk exactly. That's right, and so
Speaker 1: um probably the relevant interviews, some of them, some of
Speaker 1: the ones I've done with Michael Flaxman on my show,
Speaker 1: But essentially that's the point he's making is that theoretically,
Speaker 1: unless you kind of go to all of these additional steps,
Speaker 1: it's theoretically possible that the hardware manufacturer was malicious, or
Speaker 1: that there was some kind of supply chain attack, or
Speaker 1: let's say the hardware manufacturer. You know, now I don't
Speaker 1: think treads or a ledger would do this, but hypothetically,
Speaker 1: and you want to protect against that risk they might
Speaker 1: have done uh kind of like a a malicious setup
Speaker 1: and such that you think you are generating your own keys,
Speaker 1: but in reality they've got them, or or they've got
Speaker 1: like a pregenerated set of keys, and you you think, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: let me store on my bitcoins on this and then
Speaker 1: you know, like ten years, five years down the line,
Speaker 1: they just pull you know, they just pull the rug
Speaker 1: and do what's called the retirement attack or like the
Speaker 1: long con if you will, whereas if you use multi
Speaker 1: signature it just it just raises the level for them
Speaker 1: in terms of anyone being able to do that attack
Speaker 1: on you, because now they have to compromise not just
Speaker 1: one of your devices, but two of your devices, all
Speaker 1: three of your devices, and so it's just it just
Speaker 1: takes it to that next level in terms of security. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now let's talk So we talked about the hardware wallets
Speaker 1: of which protect your keys. Let's talk about the nodes now.
Speaker 1: So the nodes are really what, um, I guess that's
Speaker 1: like the next level that you'd want to go to
Speaker 1: explain what the nodes are and how they work exactly.
Speaker 1: So a bitcoin node, the simple way to think of it,
Speaker 1: it's like a fake bitcoin detector, right, so if you
Speaker 1: used you know, if you were doing if we were
Speaker 1: trading gold and you really wanted to check it, you
Speaker 1: would use that, you know, that machine that checks if
Speaker 1: it's really gold or if it's not just like tungsten
Speaker 1: on on the you know, on the inside. Now, a
Speaker 1: bitcoin node is a way that you can interact with
Speaker 1: the bitcoin network. And so the way it typically works
Speaker 1: is any wallet that you use has to be connected
Speaker 1: to a bitcoin node. So think of it like if
Speaker 1: you're not using your own bitcoin node, you're just pushing
Speaker 1: off that node on running the node onto somebody else.
Speaker 1: So if you use Treaser or Ledger, just on the
Speaker 1: default settings, it's just using Treaser's node or Ledger's node.
Speaker 1: Where if you learn how to set it up for yourself,
Speaker 1: and there are probably a few different ways that you
Speaker 1: can do this, you can achieve more privacy, more functionality,
Speaker 1: and more trust minimized because now you have your own
Speaker 1: source of truth, you are not pushing off that trust
Speaker 1: onto somebody else like Treaser or Ledger or your exchange now,
Speaker 1: you know. So that's kind of what we talk about.
Speaker 1: This is idea of holding your own bitcoin keys and
Speaker 1: then running your own nodes. So people also summarize this
Speaker 1: as not your node, not your rules. So historically there
Speaker 1: have been forks and other events where if you weren't
Speaker 1: running your own bitcoin node, you weren't as able to
Speaker 1: ensure that you were on the correct chain and you were,
Speaker 1: you know, running the rule set that you agreed with. UM,
Speaker 1: I can tell you, I can talk you through some
Speaker 1: of the main ways that people run notes if you like, sure, yep,
Speaker 1: So I would say there's probably two main well probably
Speaker 1: three main ways. UM So one is to just run
Speaker 1: a bitcoin node on your existing computer, and there are
Speaker 1: little trade offs so you can do to make that easier,
Speaker 1: like pruning the hard drive down. So as an example,
Speaker 1: you can run bitcoin coll on your laptop or your
Speaker 1: desktop and run spect the wallet with that, spect to
Speaker 1: desktop with that, and you can just periodically sync it
Speaker 1: up when you need to do a transaction. So the
Speaker 1: blockchain is like three gigs or whatever, um, but you
Speaker 1: can prune that down to like the last five gigs
Speaker 1: or something like that, and you can just when you
Speaker 1: do a transaction just periodically catch up there's last few gigs. Um.
Speaker 1: That's one way to do it. Another way is to
Speaker 1: do an always on device. So this is where people
Speaker 1: might use like either a box or they might use
Speaker 1: like a raspberry Pie. So some of the well known
Speaker 1: raspberry Pie full nodes are things like umbrell my Node,
Speaker 1: Ronando Joe, rasp Pie, Blitz, Starting nine Labs have this
Speaker 1: one called embassy um what else, There's one called Noddle,
Speaker 1: So that these are some of the full node you know,
Speaker 1: plug and play boxes or you can make you can
Speaker 1: build it as well. And then I guess the other
Speaker 1: third ways if you're using more like a VPS, a
Speaker 1: virtual private server, and people use this to do like
Speaker 1: a BTC pay and stuff like that. But I would
Speaker 1: say for most people, you're probably looking at at either
Speaker 1: option one or option two, which means use your existing
Speaker 1: laptop and just do it like on the laptop you
Speaker 1: already have. Or Option two is do the whole raspberry
Speaker 1: Pie set up and connect your Specter wallet to the
Speaker 1: full note on that Raspberry Pie makes sense. Yep, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's the easiest way for most people, especially
Speaker 1: as you said with the technical thing, you can just
Speaker 1: buy a device and you can literally just plug it
Speaker 1: into your Internet and kind of be done with it. Exactly.
Speaker 1: That's what that's what I've done, and it worked worked
Speaker 1: pretty well, so yeah, exactly. And so the difficult thing is,
Speaker 1: you know, people say, oh, why don't you just do
Speaker 1: it like it's all free, But sometimes it's like it's
Speaker 1: about configuring it and making it all work in a
Speaker 1: way that's nice and slick. And so I think probably
Speaker 1: one of the leaders in that is Humbrell. So you know,
Speaker 1: get umbrell dot com. They kind of walk you through
Speaker 1: how to do it, and they tell you how to
Speaker 1: connect your you know, on your laptop. You might run
Speaker 1: Specter wallet or Spected desktop and connect that through to
Speaker 1: the Raspberry Pie and then it it's you have your
Speaker 1: own source of truth. Now, are you okay running that
Speaker 1: on your normal the Spector desktop on your normal laptop
Speaker 1: or desktop, or do you run like a special device
Speaker 1: for that. Okay, so this is another kind of rabbit hole.
Speaker 1: But basically, if you were more paranoid, then yeah, you
Speaker 1: should run it around like a dedicated device. But look,
Speaker 1: in practice, most people aren't going to buy a hole
Speaker 1: another whole laptop just to do Spected Desktop on it,
Speaker 1: or just to do their bitcoin things on it. Um,
Speaker 1: So look in practice, look, I think it's because it's
Speaker 1: like a trade off of like ease of use. This
Speaker 1: is like secure and so for most people, look, you're
Speaker 1: better off just using the computer used the laptop or
Speaker 1: the computer that you already have. And remember, at least
Speaker 1: the private keys aren't being stored on there, so the
Speaker 1: private key lives in your hardware device, you know, like
Speaker 1: your you know, like your treasure or your cold card
Speaker 1: or so on. Right, Okay, so it doesn't really matter
Speaker 1: as much. Maybe it's a little bit more secure if
Speaker 1: you have it on a dedicated laptop. But but it's
Speaker 1: not really necessary. Yeah, that's how That's how I would say,
Speaker 1: because look, in practice, you've gotta be reasonable for you know,
Speaker 1: for most people, Like they're not just going to go
Speaker 1: buy another whole laptop and do another whole thing just
Speaker 1: for this, right Yeah. Yeah, Well a laptop is pretty cheap, right,
Speaker 1: I mean a laptop is three hundred bucks, so it
Speaker 1: might not might not be the worst investment in the world.
Speaker 1: All of this is uh, you know, it's it's extra work,
Speaker 1: it's extra time, it's extra security. Um, it's probably not
Speaker 1: the best set up if you want to trade with
Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other all coins. Um, this is
Speaker 1: really for the hoddlers, right, This is if you want
Speaker 1: to just kind of put it there, kind of set
Speaker 1: it and forget it. Um. I look at it kind
Speaker 1: of like you know, money in a in a safety
Speaker 1: deposit box. It's like you got to go to the
Speaker 1: bank and it's pretty difficult to do it. Then you
Speaker 1: can have like a hardware wallet on you know where
Speaker 1: it's like your billful. You walk around a little bit
Speaker 1: of money. If if you lose it, you lose it,
Speaker 1: not the into the world. Um. So it's it's trading
Speaker 1: trading convenience for safety, I guess exactly right. And so
Speaker 1: with most things it's you know, if you make them
Speaker 1: more convenient, they are less secure. That's just kind of
Speaker 1: that's just the sad reality of it. But there are
Speaker 1: you know, um you know, people and projects working on
Speaker 1: ways to try and make it easier. And I think
Speaker 1: spect the wallet is probably one of the good examples
Speaker 1: in the open source software world of that. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. I've enjoyed working with it so far. Now,
Speaker 1: running the note also has additional benefits, I think, at
Speaker 1: least for a public good, right, I mean then we're
Speaker 1: running additional uh nodes, right, we're running software, so we're
Speaker 1: actually helping support the security of the network that way. Yes,
Speaker 1: So I would say it's kind of the main like,
Speaker 1: the main benefit is for you, right of it. It's
Speaker 1: kind of like ultimately it's a selfish act, but in
Speaker 1: some way you are sort of defending the rule set
Speaker 1: of the network because you're saying, these are the rules
Speaker 1: I have chosen. And if somebody else were to try
Speaker 1: to um change the network, well, you running your node
Speaker 1: kind of helps say no, that's an invalid transaction. Let's so,
Speaker 1: let's say you were to try and receive bitcoin from
Speaker 1: someone who is trying to maliciously change the network. If
Speaker 1: you're doing that with your own bitcoin node, in some sense,
Speaker 1: you're helping defend the rule set. It's a bit of
Speaker 1: a meta kind of concept, but it's like this idea
Speaker 1: of you know, what's good for the individual, and like
Speaker 1: what's good for the overall system in making it more resilient,
Speaker 1: more robust, more hard to shut down, and arguably helps
Speaker 1: kind of the overall system in some kind of loose,
Speaker 1: sensor resistant way. And I guess you could also think
Speaker 1: of it kind of like you're seeding a file. You're
Speaker 1: helping seed that file to other people in some loose,
Speaker 1: in a loose way. So then to recap it then,
Speaker 1: so basically we buy it on the exchange or wherever
Speaker 1: wherever you buy it, pull a little bit onto a
Speaker 1: soft wallet, a hot wallet on your phone, and app
Speaker 1: on your phone a little bit. The next step is
Speaker 1: then to get a hardware wallet and then eventually try
Speaker 1: to get a note that you can process your own
Speaker 1: transactions and then move to a multi sick device. Yes,
Speaker 1: that's it, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, all right. Well, that
Speaker 1: that that covers it. I know you have a lot
Speaker 1: of help on that. Um, there's a plenty of other
Speaker 1: videos out there that explain it as well. Is that
Speaker 1: does that kind of wrap it up? I mean, if
Speaker 1: people figure that out, that's what they need to know.
Speaker 1: It's not that difficult. Yeah, And I think ultimately it's
Speaker 1: just it just takes a bit of research and a
Speaker 1: bit of time. But you can sort it out if
Speaker 1: you are um, if you are motivated. And I think
Speaker 1: what happens to a lot of people when they start
Speaker 1: reading and learning about it, is it just it lights
Speaker 1: this fire in their mind and they're like, well, I
Speaker 1: just I need to learn more about this. I want
Speaker 1: to read books, and I want to listen to podcasts,
Speaker 1: and I want to listen to interviews and learn more
Speaker 1: about it. So um, But look, fundamentally, you don't have
Speaker 1: to go all the way. You just have to dot
Speaker 1: and take some steps. And I would say for most people,
Speaker 1: once they get to kind of having a hardware wallet, um,
Speaker 1: then that's already a pretty good level. And then once
Speaker 1: you're learning to run your own bitcoin node, now you're
Speaker 1: kind of being more fully self sovereign. So that's great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a great point that you just brought up, and
Speaker 1: I think that's uh that you know, don't feel like
Speaker 1: you have to do all these things because you obviously
Speaker 1: don't have to, and you definitely don't want to do
Speaker 1: them if it's over your technical ability. So you could
Speaker 1: be you could be jeopardizing yourself by trying to get
Speaker 1: safer but actually put yourself in more danger at the
Speaker 1: same time. So um, definitely don't want to go above
Speaker 1: your technical difficulty. Well that's good stuff. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: sharing that with the audience. Like I said, I've been
Speaker 1: getting so many questions and I don't typically dig into
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, so it's great. Great to be
Speaker 1: able to have that UM to share UM for people
Speaker 1: that want to learn more about this kind of stuff,
Speaker 1: Why don't you shout out some places they can follow
Speaker 1: you or get more info. Yeah, sure, so you can
Speaker 1: find me in your podcatcher applications, Stefan the Vera podcast,
Speaker 1: Stefan le Vera dot com, and then our website, Ministry
Speaker 1: of Notes don't com dot au is where we offer
Speaker 1: guides and consulting so people can book on with us
Speaker 1: and we can help you out. Currently, we actually just
Speaker 1: offered that on a pay what you think it was
Speaker 1: worth basis, So people do a call with us, either
Speaker 1: me or with Katan, and basically they just pay whatever
Speaker 1: they think it was worth at the end of the call.
Speaker 1: That's that's all we that's all we kind of it's
Speaker 1: like just our way of trying to help the community
Speaker 1: and help people learn how to take their financial sovereignty
Speaker 1: into their own hands. That's awesome. That's awesome. What a
Speaker 1: good service. Well, Stephan, thanks so much. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: coming on and talking about that for us today. Thanks
Speaker 1: very much, Mark, Its pleasure, all right,