1 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: All right, everyone, welcome to the episode of the Market 2 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:18,160 Speaker 1: Disruptors Show, and today I'm joined by Stephan Lavera. He 3 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: is the host of the Stephan Lavera podcast and he's 4 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: also the co founder of Ministry of Nodes, and we're 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: going to dive into that today. I'm excited to have 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: you on, Stephan, thanks so much for joining. Well, thanks 7 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: for inviting me, Mark, Yeah, good so um. Yeah, So 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,880 Speaker 1: I've been I've been listening to your stuff for quite 9 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: a while and man, you put out so much good 10 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: content for so long. So I'm happy to have you 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: on and dive into kind of this this stuff. And 12 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:41,640 Speaker 1: I want to start, well, I guess let's start in 13 00:00:41,680 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 1: the beginning. And you know, as I said, I've been 14 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:45,840 Speaker 1: following you for a long time, a lot of people 15 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:47,519 Speaker 1: maybe don't know, so just give us a little bit 16 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: of a background on what you've been doing and what 17 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: you're working on. Yeah. Sure. So I am mostly known 18 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: as a bitcoin podcast, so I interview many of the 19 00:00:56,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: lading lots in the bitcoin world and also Australian economics, 20 00:00:59,800 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: and so I take an approach where I try to 21 00:01:03,400 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: interview people who are quite technical themselves, but then try 22 00:01:06,400 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: to break that down for people into the at a 23 00:01:09,240 --> 00:01:12,399 Speaker 1: level that let's say, the intelligent layman can understand. And 24 00:01:12,440 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: obviously it's a bitcoin, you know, focused show, but I 25 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: try to work in certain economic aspects of it as well, 26 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: because I think you can't understand bitcoin without meshing a 27 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: good understanding of the economics and the technology together. And 28 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: so my show is one of the well known bitcoin 29 00:01:29,720 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 1: specific shows in the space, and I think many people 30 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 1: who are themselves bitcoin builders and so on our listeners 31 00:01:36,400 --> 00:01:39,040 Speaker 1: as well of the show. So that's probably the main 32 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: thing I'm known for. And then the other project I 33 00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: have is Ministry of Nerds, which is think of it 34 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:46,839 Speaker 1: like if the podcast is for interviews with leading people 35 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: in the space, Ministry of Nerds is me and my 36 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,480 Speaker 1: co founder Katan. It's our effits to try to put 37 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: some of these things into practice for people and give 38 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: them guides and you know, exact step by step. Here's 39 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:00,200 Speaker 1: what you do, Here's how you do it. Here how 40 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 1: you take back your financial self sovereignty. Yeah great, and 41 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: we definitely need that, and so I want to dive 42 00:02:06,040 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: into that song. But before we do it, seems like, 43 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 1: as you said, right, you've talked about some Austrian econ 44 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: and it seemed like you were really focused on that 45 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:15,360 Speaker 1: and it's kind of shifted a little bit, but I 46 00:02:15,360 --> 00:02:17,639 Speaker 1: want to dive into that first. So I know you've 47 00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:21,600 Speaker 1: talked a lot about Austrian economics, and so you know, 48 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,040 Speaker 1: I spend my time talking about why bitcoin is important, 49 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 1: and so obviously I spend a lot of time on 50 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,919 Speaker 1: the economic side, the philosophy side, the politics side, um, 51 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: And it seems like Austrian economics kind of encompasses most 52 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: of that. So tell me, I guess how you see 53 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 1: that economic philosophy. Um. Hey, just a real quick interruption 54 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: to let you know that this video is brought to 55 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 1: you add free by block Fire. Now they're giving you 56 00:02:47,760 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: the ability to hodle your bitcoin and your crypto as 57 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 1: it goes up in value, and at the same time, 58 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: you can earn high yielding interest on it, so you 59 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: can basically hold it for all the upside potential and 60 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:00,240 Speaker 1: then you can make cash flow off of it at 61 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: the exact same time. Now, opening accounts super fast, super simple, 62 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: And they've offered to give me up the two fifty 63 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:08,840 Speaker 1: dollars for every sign up, but I told them, you 64 00:03:08,840 --> 00:03:10,880 Speaker 1: know what, let's give it back to you, So you 65 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: can now go and you can get the two fifty 66 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: dollars whenever you set up your account, and always to 67 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,040 Speaker 1: do is just check the link in the description for details, 68 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:20,519 Speaker 1: set up an account super quick and easy and turn 69 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:23,160 Speaker 1: up to two and fifty dollars brought to you by 70 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 1: block fire. So check them out as as opposed to 71 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 1: kind of what we have now and why that system 72 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: you think might be better? Right, So I came from 73 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: I come from that perspective in terms of an Austrian 74 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,800 Speaker 1: economic analysis of the world, and I guess it informs 75 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: my worldview and that is part of I inject that 76 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: into my interviews and people I interview. So in terms 77 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: of what's different about the Austrian perspective versus let's say 78 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:54,640 Speaker 1: the current mainstream perspective is more like Austrians see no 79 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: role for central banking, as in no productive role for 80 00:03:57,760 --> 00:04:02,920 Speaker 1: central banking. It's seen as like a political um outgrowth 81 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: of the state, and that it can cause all kinds 82 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: of problems in the market, which we call it's referred 83 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:11,720 Speaker 1: to as the boom bust cycle or also known as 84 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: Austrian business cycle theory. So Austrian economists tend to be 85 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: you know, they are more free markets. They believe in 86 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:21,160 Speaker 1: free market capitalism. They believe and they talk more about 87 00:04:21,160 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: this idea of bottom up spontaneous order, right, And if 88 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: we're going to get a bit more technical, it's more 89 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,720 Speaker 1: like it's really looking specifically at the choices and actions 90 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: that humans make and how can you deduce them. So 91 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: the methods specifically is kind of more like think a 92 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,640 Speaker 1: bit more like logically deducing certain truths and understanding and 93 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: applying those into the into the real world and trying 94 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to use that to understand a little bit better what's 95 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: going on now in practice. What does that mean? It 96 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: means anti central bank, anti fet money, generally, pro free market, generally, 97 00:04:56,600 --> 00:05:02,119 Speaker 1: looking for ways to articulate and explain why we should 98 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: have free trade, we should encourage, uh, the productivity and 99 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:12,839 Speaker 1: production through accumulation of capital, as opposed to maybe a 100 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: more Kinesian point of view, which is more like consumption first, 101 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: whereas in Austrian might tend to focus a little bit 102 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: more on this idea that no, you need to save 103 00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: and then be able to produce more and then you 104 00:05:25,800 --> 00:05:30,039 Speaker 1: can consume more. So I guess that hopefully that helps. Yeah, 105 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:32,280 Speaker 1: you said something that probably put a whole bunch of 106 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 1: people on their head. And you kind of came straight 107 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: out and you said that no central banks. And then 108 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,320 Speaker 1: then you said something that even went a little bit 109 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 1: further that probably really threw people off, and you said 110 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: that central banks cause boom and bus cycles. But it 111 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: seems that the common belief today is that it's free 112 00:05:51,960 --> 00:05:55,560 Speaker 1: market capitalism it causes booms and bus cycles. So do 113 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: you want to explain that? Yeah, sure, that's a great question. 114 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: And so I think the Austrians, when you read them, 115 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: it's think of it like this. We would we should 116 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: expect to see just in normal capitalism, some businesses growing 117 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,359 Speaker 1: and some failing, just as normal as you would expect. 118 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: That's just normal. But why is it that we see 119 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: a cluster of errors in a certain area over time 120 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:20,680 Speaker 1: and so historically, whether that's the dot com bubble or 121 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:23,400 Speaker 1: whether it's you know, housing bubble or et cetera, why 122 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 1: is it that we see that? And it's actually that 123 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 1: there's there's a reason, there's an underlying cause for that. Now, 124 00:06:29,080 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: if you listen to the mainstream media, they might say 125 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 1: something like, oh see, it's just you know, it just 126 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: comes and goes. It's like seasons. It's it's it's it's 127 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: just going to be with us for all the time, 128 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: and we just have to deal with it. And the 129 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 1: central bank needs to step in and manage it, and 130 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,280 Speaker 1: they need to try to have stable prices and look 131 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: after the employment rate and these kinds of things, where 132 00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: from an Austrian perspective is to try and look back 133 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,279 Speaker 1: and wait a minute, what's the cause of that, Try 134 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: and trace back what is the underlying cause of this? 135 00:06:56,800 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: And so in the Austrian view, it's more like hold on. 136 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: It's actually credit expansion that drives all of this stuff. 137 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: So put simply, government interventions such as the existence of 138 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: the central bank, the lender of last resort, some of 139 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: these things. They push the interest rate, they artificially depress 140 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: it will be below what it would be in a 141 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: true free market. And so in that sense, it's causes 142 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: people to get the wrong signal. Right, So prices are 143 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: like a signal, they're like an information. They're like saying, hey, 144 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: come here, use this product, use these resources because there's 145 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: a profit opportunity. And if there's a profit opportunity, you're 146 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,160 Speaker 1: being productive for the rest of society's that's kind of 147 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 1: one way to think of it. And so central banking 148 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:46,800 Speaker 1: is viewed as like a government intervention into capitalism rather 149 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 1: than being a function of capitalism. And so in that view, 150 00:07:51,920 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: it's more like central banking helps enable government to kind 151 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,960 Speaker 1: of take more command over the economy, and so it 152 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: essentially drives this boom and bust cycle because a lot 153 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 1: of entrepreneurs get given the wrong signal. In some sense, 154 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 1: it's like that, it's like the markets signals have been 155 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 1: messed with, and in doing so, all these entrepreneurs run 156 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 1: into a certain area. And you know, for the last 157 00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:20,040 Speaker 1: forty or fifty years or whatever, it's been a lot 158 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: of that has been property. Right, think how many people 159 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: are property entrepreneurs? Well, it's not clear that that is 160 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: actually like that that is what would have happened if 161 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,240 Speaker 1: we were living under a fully free market with zero 162 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: government central bank. And so I think that is essentially 163 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: coming around to this idea that if it weren't for 164 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 1: government central banking, we would not see this boom and 165 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,599 Speaker 1: bust cycle that we have seen every whatever six or 166 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: seven years historically. Yeah, yeah, I think you know part 167 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,719 Speaker 1: of it. These are complex subjects to understand because you 168 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: have to kind of have disciplines in several areas. And 169 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: so you mentioned earlier, like you know, human action, and 170 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:01,680 Speaker 1: so like you kind of have to understand like human 171 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: motivation and human action in that human intent, because as 172 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: you said, it is a little bit like cycles, right, 173 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: cycles do come and go. I love vanilla ice cream, 174 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, I want chocolate. I don't 175 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: know why I want chocolate, I just do. And so 176 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,319 Speaker 1: we're like, we're gonna want different things, and so there 177 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: are going to be booms and bus and that's just natural. 178 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 1: Some businesses starting, some fail. But I think to your point, 179 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: they're creating this artificial demand which forces everybody or or 180 00:09:27,440 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: entices everyone into certain sectors, which caused them to get 181 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:34,040 Speaker 1: way bigger and then crash, which leads to bigger booms 182 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,400 Speaker 1: and busses. That kind of what you're saying. Yes, that's 183 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 1: a great way to put it. Yeah, and uh, and 184 00:09:40,640 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: it's complex. But at the same time, it seems like 185 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: the FED tries to make it so complex that we 186 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,160 Speaker 1: don't understand and that we have to depend on them, 187 00:09:47,160 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 1: when really it, as you said, if you break it 188 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: down into those principles, it's actually pretty easy to understand. Um. 189 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: It seems like what about as an economic principle, it 190 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 1: seems like the FED also is a way that maybe 191 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,959 Speaker 1: the the elite use it to transfer wealth as opposed 192 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,839 Speaker 1: and control as opposed to really trying to free the system. 193 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: Where is as Austrian kind of I guess, as you said, 194 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,040 Speaker 1: leads to more free market. I mean, there's are a 195 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: big difference between like free and captured controlled in those 196 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: two systems. Absolutely, So the way an Austrian would most 197 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: Austrian economists would view what's gone on over this last 198 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: century or so is essentially that the state keeps expanding 199 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: and that what happens. And this is a bit where 200 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: this is where it gets a little bit more confusing, 201 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:36,960 Speaker 1: because when people look at what we've had, they say, oh, look, 202 00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: look the big businesses are in bed with the government. 203 00:10:40,640 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 1: And in some sense Austrians agree with that because they're saying, 204 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: what we want really is less government intervention. But really 205 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: what happens in practice nowadays is more like big business 206 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: will lobby with the government and the incentives just kind 207 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: of work for them to try to set up a 208 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:03,680 Speaker 1: system that cacoon themselves from outside competition. And so even 209 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: things like you know, the Federal Reserve and so on. 210 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: It often ends up being that the existing big players, 211 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,280 Speaker 1: once they've gotten big, they try to lobby the government 212 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: and they will try to say hey, oh and and 213 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: they might cauch it in very noble sounding language. They 214 00:11:20,120 --> 00:11:22,880 Speaker 1: might say like, oh, look, um, it would be very 215 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:27,200 Speaker 1: unsafe to not have regulation on this industry. So let's 216 00:11:27,240 --> 00:11:30,120 Speaker 1: have regulation on this industry. But here's what we're gonna do. 217 00:11:30,160 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 1: We're gonna make the regulation kind of fit just around 218 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: me and make a nice little cocoon around me so 219 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: that I can entrench myself against new competitors. Yeah. And 220 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: in some sense, that happens in many industries, and banking 221 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: is just one of them. Yeah. Yeah, it seems like 222 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 1: regulations are always meant to kind of entrench those positions. Um, 223 00:11:50,040 --> 00:11:53,040 Speaker 1: I've seen it firsthand. I was. I was really involved 224 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:55,320 Speaker 1: in the early days of the internet, and I remember, 225 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: I forget what it was called. Now, all these bills, 226 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: they're bad, but they have these good sounding aims. And 227 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: it was a bill that Amazon had put forth saying 228 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: that in the United States, if you were selling products online, 229 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: you didn't have to collect sales tax to every single 230 00:12:09,280 --> 00:12:11,280 Speaker 1: jurisdiction that you were selling to there, there'll be no 231 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:13,560 Speaker 1: way to do that. And so they put this bill 232 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,439 Speaker 1: and it was like the Fair Tax Collection Act or 233 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: something like that, and of course Amazon is the one 234 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:19,959 Speaker 1: that pushed it, and they said everyone had to start 235 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: collecting tax but of course the small guy there's no 236 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,319 Speaker 1: way they could do that. Only Amazon could do that. 237 00:12:25,640 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: And so we see that kind of that. That kind 238 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,000 Speaker 1: of thing happened all the time. But it seems like 239 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: it seems like we've moved now to where everybody wants 240 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:36,800 Speaker 1: to have like this free or actually say this this 241 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:43,199 Speaker 1: risk free, this safe society where everybody succeeds, and Austrian 242 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,559 Speaker 1: is kind of like it's free, but it's not safe. 243 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:49,080 Speaker 1: And so I think it looks like you kind of 244 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:50,840 Speaker 1: have to have this trade offs and it seems like 245 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: more people are opting for safety over freedom at this point. 246 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 1: Is that what you're seeing? Absolutely, and I I am 247 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: soly in the camp where I guess put simply, yeah, 248 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 1: I value freedom over safety is um if you will. Now. 249 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: I think the irony is, though, is that those people 250 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 1: who were saying safety, you know, safety is and people 251 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: are almost in some way without realizing, they are jeopardizing 252 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:21,320 Speaker 1: their long term safety anyway. Yeah, right, Whereas I think 253 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: if we were to have that society that prioritized freedom 254 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,960 Speaker 1: and in this case more specifically private property rights and 255 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:33,000 Speaker 1: our rights, I think we would actually, in some kind 256 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,400 Speaker 1: of counter intuitive way, we would actually make society more 257 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:41,000 Speaker 1: prosperous and more safe. Anyway. It's just that what happens 258 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: is government becomes this kind of big bureaucracy, if it 259 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 1: starts to impose one size fits all rules on everyone, 260 00:13:47,600 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: it becomes owners it becomes high tax and so those 261 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 1: of us who and you know, want freedom. And it's 262 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:57,640 Speaker 1: a weird thing because it's almost like these the views 263 00:13:57,679 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: that maybe you and I are talking about now, they 264 00:13:59,840 --> 00:14:03,559 Speaker 1: might be perhaps in the minority now, but a hundred 265 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: years ago they probably weren't in that much of a minority. 266 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 1: It's just that of the time, it just the values 267 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: the culture of society, whether whether in the US or 268 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: here in Australia elsewhere in the around the world, it's 269 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:22,360 Speaker 1: like the values have eroded in some way, and so 270 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: it's it's it's a tricky situation, but I think there 271 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:27,880 Speaker 1: is kind of like that maybe there is a bit 272 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: of a pendulum sort of swing aspect to this, and 273 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: I think to some extent, we're seeing the pendulum kind 274 00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: of go to the one end, and I think, now 275 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: we're gonna, We're gonna eventually it will come back the 276 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:40,760 Speaker 1: other way. There's a book called The Pendulum. That's a 277 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: great book. I don't know if you were just saying 278 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,320 Speaker 1: that or if you've heard of the book. I haven't, 279 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:46,800 Speaker 1: but it basically talks about it's called the pendulum, and 280 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: it talks about these forty year swings where we go 281 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:54,280 Speaker 1: from a week a WEE cycle, so that's WE collectivism, globalism, 282 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: and then it swings to a ME cycle, which is individualism, decentralization. 283 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:01,920 Speaker 1: So every forty years it goes so it's an eighty 284 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: year cycle back and forth. And the last time we 285 00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: when we shifted from the decentralized the ME was at 286 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: the end of like World War two, which is when 287 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: the U N God founded, the EU first started getting founded, 288 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: all those things. And right now I think one is 289 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: the peak of that WE cycle, and then it starts 290 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:28,280 Speaker 1: to shift back to a ME individualism decentralization cycle, and 291 00:15:28,280 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 1: then in the book they trace it back thousands of years. 292 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting. But um, what I was gonna say 293 00:15:33,920 --> 00:15:35,800 Speaker 1: is like when you talked about Austrian nicon, you were 294 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: talking about how it really breaks things down to their 295 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: most basic basic, right, So there's like natural laws, and 296 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,680 Speaker 1: it seems like we kind of know this because if 297 00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:46,880 Speaker 1: we look at nature we can see so if we 298 00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: look at animals, for example, even if you go to 299 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:51,280 Speaker 1: the state parks in the US, they did not have 300 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: a signus says don't feed the animals because the animals 301 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,160 Speaker 1: become dependent on the food and they can't go find 302 00:15:56,200 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: food on their own, right, And so like we we 303 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: know this and some some some instance, right, And so 304 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:04,320 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, like if you have what what your 305 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: thoughts are on this, because I look at it like, 306 00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 1: let's say, if you're a lion, right, Like you're a 307 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: free lion and you're in the jungle and you have 308 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: to fight for your territory all the time, and you 309 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: may starve, but it's a rough life, but you're free. 310 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:15,320 Speaker 1: Or you could be a lion in a cage and 311 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: get your antibiotics and get your one meal a day, 312 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 1: but you're in a cage. But the problem is once 313 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 1: you're in that cage for years or a generation, you 314 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,920 Speaker 1: don't really go back to the wild. And so it's 315 00:16:28,000 --> 00:16:30,480 Speaker 1: not it doesn't seem like it's gonna be that easy 316 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 1: to just like switch it back off, Like do you 317 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:34,800 Speaker 1: I mean, have you thought about that? Like, how do 318 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: we transition out of this? I am it's a hard 319 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,800 Speaker 1: question to be honest. I think it's one of those 320 00:16:41,840 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 1: things where you have to laid by example, And so 321 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:47,640 Speaker 1: I think to some extent, bitcoin people are trying to 322 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: laid by that example and say, no, let's take responsibility. 323 00:16:51,320 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: We're gonna take responsibility for ourselves. We're gonna try to 324 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 1: build our communities and give people the freedom back and 325 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:01,400 Speaker 1: encourage them to take their power back where they can 326 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,280 Speaker 1: and you know, go and live free where you can, 327 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 1: little by little, Yeah, exactly. And I think to some 328 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: extent it's I view bitcoin as ultimately it is a 329 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:14,480 Speaker 1: technology that tips the scales in the favor of the individual. 330 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: You know. It's kind of like the printing press came 331 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:18,399 Speaker 1: out and it tipped this it changed the balance of 332 00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: the power, and I think bitcoin is just like that. 333 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: It's going to tip the balance more towards individuals and 334 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: families and communities versus governments. And so I think what 335 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:33,600 Speaker 1: that like because I think of it like you know 336 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 1: how people talk about that idea of politics is downstream 337 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:41,320 Speaker 1: of culture. I think upstream of culture is economics. And 338 00:17:41,600 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 1: if we have bad you know, weak or sound, you know, 339 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 1: not fear out money, easy money, easy money that's easy 340 00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: to create, that causes the cultural degeneration. And then so 341 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 1: I think the next swing back is the hard money direction. 342 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:58,200 Speaker 1: So I think it's kind of like you change the economics, 343 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: you change the culture, and then you change politics, and 344 00:18:01,200 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: I think that is sort of the cycle that we're 345 00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,920 Speaker 1: coming back into. As you mentioned, Yeah, that's that's real good. 346 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: I actually I love that. You know, I'm sure you've 347 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 1: seen the same, right, We've seen however, many people coming 348 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:16,480 Speaker 1: into bitcoin, and when they change their time preference, it 349 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: starts to change their whole life. And you see it 350 00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:20,199 Speaker 1: over and over. I say it myself other people that 351 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: it's changed their entire thought process of the way they 352 00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,080 Speaker 1: view the world, the way they spend their money, save 353 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:27,840 Speaker 1: their money, work, all these things have changed. And so 354 00:18:27,880 --> 00:18:32,160 Speaker 1: it really does start with that economic view, I guess exactly. Yeah, 355 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: I think it. You know, as as my friend's safety 356 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,080 Speaker 1: and says, the most important trades are the ones that 357 00:18:37,119 --> 00:18:39,359 Speaker 1: you make with your future self and you know, you 358 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:42,600 Speaker 1: have to start thinking more about, you know, your future 359 00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 1: and ideally when you have a family, your children and 360 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 1: your grandchildren and your legacy and those kinds of things. 361 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,400 Speaker 1: And many people when they come into the bitcoin will 362 00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:52,000 Speaker 1: they start really thinking more about these kinds of future 363 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: opportunity costs because they weren't all that kind of saving 364 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: type who thought about the future. But bitcoin kind of 365 00:18:58,760 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: forced that cost on to them because now it made 366 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: it more apparent that, hey, if I spend these bitcoins 367 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: now I'm Liz, I'm missing out on huge, huge games 368 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,639 Speaker 1: in the future. So now I need to start really 369 00:19:08,680 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: thinking about that. And maybe hey, just another quick interruption 370 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: to let you know that this video it's brought to 371 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,439 Speaker 1: you add free by Block five. Now they allow you 372 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: to hold onto your bitcoin and your other cryptos for 373 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: all the potential upside, and at the same time you 374 00:19:21,720 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: can earn high yielding interest on it, so it basically 375 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: cash flows. Now with block five you can earn up 376 00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: to eight point six percent interest. You can also borrow 377 00:19:29,760 --> 00:19:32,679 Speaker 1: against your crypto as well. It's super fast, it's super 378 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 1: easy to set up an account, and right now you 379 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: can get up to two hundred and fifty dollars when 380 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 1: you set up your account. Check the link in the 381 00:19:39,280 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: description that I have for details in order to claim 382 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:44,679 Speaker 1: that two and fifty dollars. Because Block five is the 383 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:46,720 Speaker 1: future of finance. Just check the link in the description 384 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,760 Speaker 1: for all the details of how to claim your two 385 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:52,520 Speaker 1: and fifty dollars today, eating more healthily, working out, and 386 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 1: doing these kinds of things too. Really, we want to 387 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: play long term games with long term people. Yeah, I'll 388 00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: was listening to Safe today and he was talking about 389 00:20:03,480 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 1: how time, how everything is built on economic principles. That's 390 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: kind of exactly what you're saying, and the old and 391 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,919 Speaker 1: it's all based off of scarcity and the ultimate economic principle, 392 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: the ultimate asset, the ultimate scarcity is time because time 393 00:20:18,800 --> 00:20:20,159 Speaker 1: is the only thing we can't go get more of. 394 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,159 Speaker 1: So I spent my bitcoin, I can go get more bitcoin, right, 395 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 1: I can go get more gold, I can go get 396 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,480 Speaker 1: more whatever, but I can't go back and get more time. 397 00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:30,520 Speaker 1: So it's like the ultimate scarcity. And if you look 398 00:20:30,560 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: at and so I guess if you changed the economic 399 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: view and like, look at people, most people today probably 400 00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: don't value their time, right, they squander their time waste 401 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:38,639 Speaker 1: or time They don't even know where their time went. 402 00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 1: They're like, dude, where did my whole day go? U? Exactly? 403 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 1: All right? Where did my month go? Or whatever? Right? 404 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 1: And so like, yeah, you start to change that economic 405 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: it changed the world view. I like that. I hadn't 406 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: really thought of it that way. Um, yeah, good point. 407 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: So I'm curious. You used to talk a lot about 408 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 1: Austrian economics. I'm curious. Did you come into Austrian economics 409 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:01,679 Speaker 1: after bitcoin? Did bitcoin change your worldview into that or 410 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: you had it before? I was already into it. So 411 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:08,240 Speaker 1: the thing for me is I was maybe fourteen or fifteen, 412 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: and I was like on I r C and this 413 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,879 Speaker 1: guy kept linking to mrs Daily articles. Right, I was 414 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: on some politics channel and that that was my first 415 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,879 Speaker 1: exposure to Austrian economics. And that from that was how 416 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 1: I went down the Austrian economics rabbit hole. And then 417 00:21:21,400 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: later in my life, obviously bitcoin came up and I 418 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,159 Speaker 1: was like, Wow, this is amazing, this is this is it, 419 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,439 Speaker 1: this is the thing, this is you know, it's not 420 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 1: everything we need, but it's probably the most important technology 421 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: for creating more freedom. So those of us who are 422 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:38,679 Speaker 1: more liberty minded, it's a very very important technology. So 423 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: for me, I was already into Austrian economics. I was 424 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:44,879 Speaker 1: already anti central making and that for me was what 425 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: helped me see so much value in bitcoin. And so 426 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: funnily enough, I have a lot of listeners who came 427 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: in from the bitcoin side, and then because of listening 428 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: to me and reading safety and you know some of 429 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: the other people, and you know, reading the work of 430 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: other people in the space, they also went down the 431 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 1: Austrian rabbit hole. So I see it as part of 432 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: my role as to help educate my listeners both on 433 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: bitcoin technology but also Austrian economics. So you know, sometimes 434 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,600 Speaker 1: it's kind of the balance shifts a little bit and 435 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:13,520 Speaker 1: I kind of end up doing more bitcoin text stuff. 436 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,040 Speaker 1: This is kind of economic and macro and history elements 437 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: of it, but I try to you know, it's a 438 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: bit of a balance, um, but certainly it's you know, 439 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: some people come in bitcoin first and other people were 440 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: more Austrian and libertarian first. Yeah, so let's jump into 441 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: that a little bit, because I spend all my time 442 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 1: focusing on the big picture of the y stuff, and 443 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I know we had a ton of people that have 444 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 1: come into the space recently with the price shooting higher, 445 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: the number go up. Technology, as we say, Um, and 446 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,920 Speaker 1: so I'm getting flooded with questions on you know, more 447 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: technical in nature, so how to store it, where to 448 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:48,160 Speaker 1: store it, you know, how to secure all those types 449 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: of things. So I guess where where would the average 450 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: person start? Like, how do you think of Let's let's 451 00:22:54,800 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 1: let's start with storage first. So somebody wants to come 452 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,600 Speaker 1: in and they buy bitcoin, and they can it's on 453 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: the exchange. They bought it, and they could either leave 454 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:06,720 Speaker 1: it there, or they could take it off and put 455 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:08,399 Speaker 1: it onto some sort of a walle at, hot wallet, 456 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: hardware wallet. All of those things have trade offs and 457 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 1: risks associated with them. So how should the average person 458 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: think through that and try to decide how they want 459 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 1: to move forward? Yeah, great question. So what I would 460 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: say is for many people, they just start on an exchange, 461 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: right and fine. Um, what I would say is start small. 462 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: You know a lot of people get very what's the word, 463 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: It's like analysis paralysis, Right, They're just like, oh, I 464 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 1: don't even know where to start. I'm just not going 465 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: I'm just gonna leave it there. It's like, no, just 466 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: one step at a time. Start small, But I would say, 467 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,480 Speaker 1: start with a phone wallet, So on your phone, on 468 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,400 Speaker 1: your if you got an Android phone, go to Samurai wallet. 469 00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,120 Speaker 1: And if you've got an iPhone, look at Blue wallet. 470 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 1: So I would say those are some good suggestions, and 471 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:54,000 Speaker 1: just start by withdrawing say dollars from your exchange or 472 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: brokerage service or whatever. Start with that, and then once 473 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 1: you get more comfortable, and once the value, once you 474 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:04,320 Speaker 1: your value starts rising in terms of Bitcoin terms, let's 475 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:06,399 Speaker 1: say over a couple of thousand dollars, Well, then you 476 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: want to start looking at getting a hardware wallet. And 477 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,680 Speaker 1: then okay, now you might look at a cold card, 478 00:24:11,760 --> 00:24:13,639 Speaker 1: let's say a coin guide dot com, that kind of 479 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,960 Speaker 1: thing UM or a ledger or treaser and that kind 480 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:20,639 Speaker 1: of thing. And then after that you might want to 481 00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 1: start learning okay, how do I run it with my 482 00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,240 Speaker 1: own bitcoin node um and some of those elements of it. 483 00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: And then as you get too higher values, well then okay, 484 00:24:29,040 --> 00:24:31,359 Speaker 1: now you've got to start thinking about multi signature. And 485 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: so what I would suggest kind of as we speak 486 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:38,000 Speaker 1: today January, if you are a beginner or an intermediate 487 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: level Bitcoin user in terms of your technical ability, I 488 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: would suggest you look for one of the guided service 489 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,000 Speaker 1: providers for multi signature. So this is so like my 490 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,760 Speaker 1: podcast onnsor is unchanged capital and or another option is 491 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: cast Us. So they're probably the two big options in 492 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 1: terms of guided helping you do it easy with multi signature? 493 00:24:57,840 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: How how how much? How much do I need to 494 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 1: have before I need to start worrying about something like that? 495 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: I mean, you mentioned a couple of thousand dollars uh 496 00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: in a heart in a in a in a phone wallet, 497 00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: and a soft like a hot wallet. Um, so at 498 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: what level do I want to start worried about like 499 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,679 Speaker 1: solutions like that? Yeah, that's a hard question. I think 500 00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: it's one of those like how long is a pace 501 00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:20,920 Speaker 1: of string questions? I think So, I think it really 502 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,159 Speaker 1: comes down to the person's like own I mean, they 503 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 1: have to decide what their own risk tolerances. So like 504 00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: if I keep it on the exchange, then I don't 505 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: have to worry about the security, but I have to 506 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,040 Speaker 1: worry about them getting there, them watching about their security. 507 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,640 Speaker 1: Right if they get hacked or the government seizes them 508 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: or freezes them, or they locked me out for whatever reason, 509 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: I have to worry about that. But if I take 510 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: it now, I have to worry about security, right, So 511 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,359 Speaker 1: like there's like trade offs with each one. Um, so 512 00:25:49,920 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: I guess different exchanges have different risk profiles as well. 513 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: Um right, yeah, yeah, So I would say you just 514 00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,440 Speaker 1: gotta stot and like we in bitcoin with very much encourage, 515 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:02,880 Speaker 1: self custody. But it's a learning journey, and I understand 516 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: it's at the start it can be very daunting. So 517 00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:07,440 Speaker 1: I guess high level, if I had to give some guidance, 518 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:12,800 Speaker 1: I would say, you you want to just take incremental steps, 519 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: and so going from hardware wallet to thinking about okay, 520 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,439 Speaker 1: do I need to start thinking about multi signature. If 521 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: I had to just kind of pick a number out 522 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,679 Speaker 1: of the air, I would say maybe six figures. Once 523 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:27,679 Speaker 1: you're getting over six figures worth of bitcoin, you probably 524 00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 1: want to start thinking about multi signature. And then here's 525 00:26:31,359 --> 00:26:33,639 Speaker 1: the here's the factor, right, because with bitcoin it is 526 00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,119 Speaker 1: extremely volatiles. I'm sure you and the listeners know it 527 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,199 Speaker 1: can in the space of a few months, it can 528 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:42,360 Speaker 1: go ten x and that's not like that has happened. 529 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,000 Speaker 1: So let's say you had you had a bitcoin stack 530 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: of hundred thousand or two hundred thousand in the space 531 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,640 Speaker 1: of a few months during a bull run that could 532 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,280 Speaker 1: be a million, two million or more. And so you've 533 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,920 Speaker 1: really got to start thinking about UM multi signature once 534 00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:01,480 Speaker 1: you get to those kinds of levels, and so that's 535 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: where it's worth thinking about. So it's but it's a 536 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: journey and you've got to learn about you know, backups 537 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,320 Speaker 1: and those aspects of it also to make sure and 538 00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:12,040 Speaker 1: then you've got to like it's there's a there's a pathway, 539 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: but you have to think about things like backups. You 540 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: have to think about things like inheritance. If you were 541 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:19,120 Speaker 1: to pass, how would your heirs or your family get 542 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,639 Speaker 1: the coins. So that's why I would say for a 543 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 1: beginner and intermediate level you want to look at using 544 00:27:25,320 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: a guided solution, and advanced level you can do like 545 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,160 Speaker 1: a d I Y multi see like with your own 546 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,840 Speaker 1: using spector wallet and some of these UM solutions or 547 00:27:35,880 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 1: electroum or so when you say when you when you're 548 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:40,400 Speaker 1: breaking those down, you're not talking about how much money 549 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,399 Speaker 1: you have. You're talking about what your technical ability is. 550 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: So if you feel more technically advanced, you might want 551 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:46,840 Speaker 1: to set it up on your own UM, but if 552 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: you're not technically advanced, then you want to host it 553 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: or guided service exactly. Yeah. And so the way I 554 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: would see it is if I look at kind of 555 00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: the market and the current solutions, that's based on you know, 556 00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,399 Speaker 1: the current level of support, the current level of ease 557 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: of use, the current software, the hardware that works with it. 558 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:09,199 Speaker 1: I would say four. Now, beginner, an intermediate level in 559 00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 1: a technical ability should be you probably are better off 560 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,959 Speaker 1: with a guided provider. And then yeah, so that and 561 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: that can help you because if you start using multi signature, 562 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: it's like you know, those nuclear codes, you need two 563 00:28:22,520 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: of two or whatever. So in in bitcoin, the the 564 00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: typical ones that you know, an individual like you and 565 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:29,800 Speaker 1: me might be using. You might have at two of 566 00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: three set up, or you might have a three of 567 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: five setups. So you might have you know, yeah to 568 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: um yeah, basically three hardware worlds and you need two 569 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: of those to spend. And so the idea is that 570 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,280 Speaker 1: you would keep those in different locations, so you might 571 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 1: have say one hardware wallet at home and one in 572 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: a safety deposit box somewhere or a bank vault or 573 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 1: something like that. And then in that example, let's say 574 00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 1: you went with unchanged capital, then unchanged capital and hold 575 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,760 Speaker 1: the third key. In that scenario and then so you 576 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: could either sign it purely on your own, or you 577 00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: could sign one key and you could ask that that 578 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,720 Speaker 1: service provider to do the third you know, that additional 579 00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: signature for you. Now, So like I mean, if I 580 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: if I have enough problems keeping track of one key, 581 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: now I got to keep track of three keys. So 582 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 1: does that I mean, does does that just make it harder? 583 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: It does, but it also provides you so much more security. 584 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: It means just so much less likely to get hacked. 585 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 1: You're so much less likely to be stolen from. Because 586 00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: now even if somebody, if an arm armed robber turns 587 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: up to your house, you literally cannot spend from the 588 00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: setup that you've got. They would have to take you 589 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:41,480 Speaker 1: to the bank vault or to the safety deposit box. 590 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: And that just it just raises the level in terms 591 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 1: of who could easily and feasibly attack you. Now, there's 592 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: trade offs with all of this stuff, right, because if 593 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 1: you use one of the guided service providers, you have 594 00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 1: to give up some info in terms of privacy, and 595 00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,640 Speaker 1: so you know that's something you have to think about. 596 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: You might think, well, you know what, if I'm relatively 597 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: less well known, maybe I would get away with just 598 00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:08,800 Speaker 1: using single signature, using my own set up, Whereas let's say, 599 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 1: if you're a if you're a public influencer with the 600 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: name and someone maybe for that kind of person, you 601 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: really should be looking at multi signature because it just 602 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: gives you such an increased level of security. Now, the 603 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:23,320 Speaker 1: good the good news here ultimately though, is that bitcoin 604 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: gives people choices and it makes it so that you 605 00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: have this incredibly asymmetric defensive technology because it's like relatively 606 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: a small cost for you, but it makes it a 607 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,400 Speaker 1: very very high cost for the attacker. And so that 608 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 1: is the overall good news here that you know you 609 00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,040 Speaker 1: can do this. It just takes a little bit of 610 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:47,240 Speaker 1: It takes a little bit of work and research and 611 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: personal responsibility, but I think in the end, at the 612 00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 1: end of the day, it's worth it. Yeah, I mean, 613 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:55,760 Speaker 1: and that brings us back to where we started, right, 614 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: So start being lazy, invest a little bit of your 615 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: time into improving your life and it makes a big difference. Um, yeah, 616 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm I'm going down that path on my own downloaded 617 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: specter and of trying to set up the multi SIGs, 618 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,680 Speaker 1: and it's a little overwhelming. I'm not gonna lie and 619 00:31:12,720 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: I've been I started internet business in two thousand one, 620 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 1: I've been online ever since. I'm pretty technically savvy. I 621 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,520 Speaker 1: consider myself to be pretty technically savvy. And it's still 622 00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 1: it's still still a good amount of work. So um 623 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: for those types of deals, then I guess we could 624 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,000 Speaker 1: maybe plug your other side, but you actually help people 625 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: do that as it right? Yes, So Ministry of nons 626 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: dot com dotau is the website for that. So Katan 627 00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:36,240 Speaker 1: and I we basically we just make free guides for 628 00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:39,080 Speaker 1: people to learn how to self custody. So and we 629 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: offer just kind of consulting for people who want to 630 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: do a call with us and help will will help 631 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,920 Speaker 1: talk them through that if they want to try to 632 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:50,000 Speaker 1: do it in a more self sovereign way. Um. So 633 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: that's just one of the things we offer. And just 634 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: like other guides and things like that. So is the 635 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,760 Speaker 1: is the is the security flaw in the vice itself? 636 00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: So if I use a hardware wall er, whether that's 637 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,720 Speaker 1: treas or or a ledger, is it is it? Well? 638 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't even know how to ask 639 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: this question. I mean, I guess there's just so many 640 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: security holes that we don't know so instead of trusting 641 00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:14,520 Speaker 1: one device, if we split it up, then we're basically 642 00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: um splitting up our risk exactly. That's right, and so 643 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: um probably the relevant interviews, some of them, some of 644 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: the ones I've done with Michael Flaxman on my show, 645 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,959 Speaker 1: But essentially that's the point he's making is that theoretically, 646 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 1: unless you kind of go to all of these additional steps, 647 00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,880 Speaker 1: it's theoretically possible that the hardware manufacturer was malicious, or 648 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,520 Speaker 1: that there was some kind of supply chain attack, or 649 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:41,560 Speaker 1: let's say the hardware manufacturer. You know, now I don't 650 00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: think treads or a ledger would do this, but hypothetically, 651 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,400 Speaker 1: and you want to protect against that risk they might 652 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: have done uh kind of like a a malicious setup 653 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:53,800 Speaker 1: and such that you think you are generating your own keys, 654 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,520 Speaker 1: but in reality they've got them, or or they've got 655 00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:59,360 Speaker 1: like a pregenerated set of keys, and you you think, oh, yeah, 656 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,280 Speaker 1: let me store on my bitcoins on this and then 657 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: you know, like ten years, five years down the line, 658 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,320 Speaker 1: they just pull you know, they just pull the rug 659 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 1: and do what's called the retirement attack or like the 660 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: long con if you will, whereas if you use multi 661 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: signature it just it just raises the level for them 662 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: in terms of anyone being able to do that attack 663 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 1: on you, because now they have to compromise not just 664 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: one of your devices, but two of your devices, all 665 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,479 Speaker 1: three of your devices, and so it's just it just 666 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: takes it to that next level in terms of security. Yeah, 667 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,320 Speaker 1: now let's talk So we talked about the hardware wallets 668 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: of which protect your keys. Let's talk about the nodes now. 669 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: So the nodes are really what, um, I guess that's 670 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: like the next level that you'd want to go to 671 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: explain what the nodes are and how they work exactly. 672 00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: So a bitcoin node, the simple way to think of it, 673 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: it's like a fake bitcoin detector, right, so if you 674 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 1: used you know, if you were doing if we were 675 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 1: trading gold and you really wanted to check it, you 676 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: would use that, you know, that machine that checks if 677 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: it's really gold or if it's not just like tungsten 678 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: on on the you know, on the inside. Now, a 679 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: bitcoin node is a way that you can interact with 680 00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: the bitcoin network. And so the way it typically works 681 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 1: is any wallet that you use has to be connected 682 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:11,200 Speaker 1: to a bitcoin node. So think of it like if 683 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,680 Speaker 1: you're not using your own bitcoin node, you're just pushing 684 00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: off that node on running the node onto somebody else. 685 00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 1: So if you use Treaser or Ledger, just on the 686 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: default settings, it's just using Treaser's node or Ledger's node. 687 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: Where if you learn how to set it up for yourself, 688 00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:28,160 Speaker 1: and there are probably a few different ways that you 689 00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: can do this, you can achieve more privacy, more functionality, 690 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: and more trust minimized because now you have your own 691 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,800 Speaker 1: source of truth, you are not pushing off that trust 692 00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:45,800 Speaker 1: onto somebody else like Treaser or Ledger or your exchange now, 693 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 1: you know. So that's kind of what we talk about. 694 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,160 Speaker 1: This is idea of holding your own bitcoin keys and 695 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 1: then running your own nodes. So people also summarize this 696 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: as not your node, not your rules. So historically there 697 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:01,240 Speaker 1: have been forks and other events where if you weren't 698 00:35:01,680 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 1: running your own bitcoin node, you weren't as able to 699 00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: ensure that you were on the correct chain and you were, 700 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: you know, running the rule set that you agreed with. UM, 701 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 1: I can tell you, I can talk you through some 702 00:35:11,440 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: of the main ways that people run notes if you like, sure, yep, 703 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 1: So I would say there's probably two main well probably 704 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,919 Speaker 1: three main ways. UM So one is to just run 705 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,520 Speaker 1: a bitcoin node on your existing computer, and there are 706 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,640 Speaker 1: little trade offs so you can do to make that easier, 707 00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,440 Speaker 1: like pruning the hard drive down. So as an example, 708 00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: you can run bitcoin coll on your laptop or your 709 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:36,840 Speaker 1: desktop and run spect the wallet with that, spect to 710 00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:40,120 Speaker 1: desktop with that, and you can just periodically sync it 711 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: up when you need to do a transaction. So the 712 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,239 Speaker 1: blockchain is like three gigs or whatever, um, but you 713 00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,400 Speaker 1: can prune that down to like the last five gigs 714 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 1: or something like that, and you can just when you 715 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,879 Speaker 1: do a transaction just periodically catch up there's last few gigs. Um. 716 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: That's one way to do it. Another way is to 717 00:35:55,760 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: do an always on device. So this is where people 718 00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,120 Speaker 1: might use like either a box or they might use 719 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: like a raspberry Pie. So some of the well known 720 00:36:03,440 --> 00:36:07,480 Speaker 1: raspberry Pie full nodes are things like umbrell my Node, 721 00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,600 Speaker 1: Ronando Joe, rasp Pie, Blitz, Starting nine Labs have this 722 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,040 Speaker 1: one called embassy um what else, There's one called Noddle, 723 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: So that these are some of the full node you know, 724 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 1: plug and play boxes or you can make you can 725 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,160 Speaker 1: build it as well. And then I guess the other 726 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: third ways if you're using more like a VPS, a 727 00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 1: virtual private server, and people use this to do like 728 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: a BTC pay and stuff like that. But I would 729 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,359 Speaker 1: say for most people, you're probably looking at at either 730 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 1: option one or option two, which means use your existing 731 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:36,279 Speaker 1: laptop and just do it like on the laptop you 732 00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: already have. Or Option two is do the whole raspberry 733 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 1: Pie set up and connect your Specter wallet to the 734 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 1: full note on that Raspberry Pie makes sense. Yep, yeah, 735 00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: I think that's the easiest way for most people, especially 736 00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: as you said with the technical thing, you can just 737 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,000 Speaker 1: buy a device and you can literally just plug it 738 00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,680 Speaker 1: into your Internet and kind of be done with it. Exactly. 739 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:57,399 Speaker 1: That's what that's what I've done, and it worked worked 740 00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: pretty well, so yeah, exactly. And so the difficult thing is, 741 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,440 Speaker 1: you know, people say, oh, why don't you just do 742 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: it like it's all free, But sometimes it's like it's 743 00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: about configuring it and making it all work in a 744 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: way that's nice and slick. And so I think probably 745 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:12,719 Speaker 1: one of the leaders in that is Humbrell. So you know, 746 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 1: get umbrell dot com. They kind of walk you through 747 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: how to do it, and they tell you how to 748 00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: connect your you know, on your laptop. You might run 749 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:22,160 Speaker 1: Specter wallet or Spected desktop and connect that through to 750 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,640 Speaker 1: the Raspberry Pie and then it it's you have your 751 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,840 Speaker 1: own source of truth. Now, are you okay running that 752 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:32,520 Speaker 1: on your normal the Spector desktop on your normal laptop 753 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,120 Speaker 1: or desktop, or do you run like a special device 754 00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:38,600 Speaker 1: for that. Okay, so this is another kind of rabbit hole. 755 00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:41,880 Speaker 1: But basically, if you were more paranoid, then yeah, you 756 00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: should run it around like a dedicated device. But look, 757 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: in practice, most people aren't going to buy a hole 758 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: another whole laptop just to do Spected Desktop on it, 759 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,839 Speaker 1: or just to do their bitcoin things on it. Um, 760 00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:57,440 Speaker 1: So look in practice, look, I think it's because it's 761 00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,120 Speaker 1: like a trade off of like ease of use. This 762 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: is like secure and so for most people, look, you're 763 00:38:02,000 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 1: better off just using the computer used the laptop or 764 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,320 Speaker 1: the computer that you already have. And remember, at least 765 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,120 Speaker 1: the private keys aren't being stored on there, so the 766 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: private key lives in your hardware device, you know, like 767 00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:16,160 Speaker 1: your you know, like your treasure or your cold card 768 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 1: or so on. Right, Okay, so it doesn't really matter 769 00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: as much. Maybe it's a little bit more secure if 770 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: you have it on a dedicated laptop. But but it's 771 00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,399 Speaker 1: not really necessary. Yeah, that's how That's how I would say, 772 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,719 Speaker 1: because look, in practice, you've gotta be reasonable for you know, 773 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,239 Speaker 1: for most people, Like they're not just going to go 774 00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,319 Speaker 1: buy another whole laptop and do another whole thing just 775 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: for this, right Yeah. Yeah, Well a laptop is pretty cheap, right, 776 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:40,480 Speaker 1: I mean a laptop is three hundred bucks, so it 777 00:38:40,560 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: might not might not be the worst investment in the world. 778 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:45,520 Speaker 1: All of this is uh, you know, it's it's extra work, 779 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,799 Speaker 1: it's extra time, it's extra security. Um, it's probably not 780 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:50,640 Speaker 1: the best set up if you want to trade with 781 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: a whole bunch of other all coins. Um, this is 782 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: really for the hoddlers, right, This is if you want 783 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: to just kind of put it there, kind of set 784 00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: it and forget it. Um. I look at it kind 785 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,320 Speaker 1: of like you know, money in a in a safety 786 00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 1: deposit box. It's like you got to go to the 787 00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,279 Speaker 1: bank and it's pretty difficult to do it. Then you 788 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: can have like a hardware wallet on you know where 789 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: it's like your billful. You walk around a little bit 790 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:10,719 Speaker 1: of money. If if you lose it, you lose it, 791 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,320 Speaker 1: not the into the world. Um. So it's it's trading 792 00:39:14,440 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: trading convenience for safety, I guess exactly right. And so 793 00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:21,399 Speaker 1: with most things it's you know, if you make them 794 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,120 Speaker 1: more convenient, they are less secure. That's just kind of 795 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,040 Speaker 1: that's just the sad reality of it. But there are 796 00:39:27,239 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: you know, um you know, people and projects working on 797 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,759 Speaker 1: ways to try and make it easier. And I think 798 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 1: spect the wallet is probably one of the good examples 799 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: in the open source software world of that. Yeah, yeah, 800 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,600 Speaker 1: it's pretty cool. I've enjoyed working with it so far. Now, 801 00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:44,759 Speaker 1: running the note also has additional benefits, I think, at 802 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:46,440 Speaker 1: least for a public good, right, I mean then we're 803 00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:50,839 Speaker 1: running additional uh nodes, right, we're running software, so we're 804 00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: actually helping support the security of the network that way. Yes, 805 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 1: So I would say it's kind of the main like, 806 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:00,520 Speaker 1: the main benefit is for you, right of it. It's 807 00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:03,000 Speaker 1: kind of like ultimately it's a selfish act, but in 808 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: some way you are sort of defending the rule set 809 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,919 Speaker 1: of the network because you're saying, these are the rules 810 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 1: I have chosen. And if somebody else were to try 811 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:16,080 Speaker 1: to um change the network, well, you running your node 812 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,480 Speaker 1: kind of helps say no, that's an invalid transaction. Let's so, 813 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,520 Speaker 1: let's say you were to try and receive bitcoin from 814 00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: someone who is trying to maliciously change the network. If 815 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,520 Speaker 1: you're doing that with your own bitcoin node, in some sense, 816 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,000 Speaker 1: you're helping defend the rule set. It's a bit of 817 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 1: a meta kind of concept, but it's like this idea 818 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:34,960 Speaker 1: of you know, what's good for the individual, and like 819 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,040 Speaker 1: what's good for the overall system in making it more resilient, 820 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: more robust, more hard to shut down, and arguably helps 821 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: kind of the overall system in some kind of loose, 822 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,200 Speaker 1: sensor resistant way. And I guess you could also think 823 00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:51,560 Speaker 1: of it kind of like you're seeding a file. You're 824 00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:54,760 Speaker 1: helping seed that file to other people in some loose, 825 00:40:55,040 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: in a loose way. So then to recap it then, 826 00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,440 Speaker 1: so basically we buy it on the exchange or wherever 827 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: wherever you buy it, pull a little bit onto a 828 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:06,200 Speaker 1: soft wallet, a hot wallet on your phone, and app 829 00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: on your phone a little bit. The next step is 830 00:41:08,760 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: then to get a hardware wallet and then eventually try 831 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: to get a note that you can process your own 832 00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:16,759 Speaker 1: transactions and then move to a multi sick device. Yes, 833 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: that's it, Yeah, that's it. Yeah, all right. Well, that 834 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,279 Speaker 1: that that covers it. I know you have a lot 835 00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,399 Speaker 1: of help on that. Um, there's a plenty of other 836 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: videos out there that explain it as well. Is that 837 00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,040 Speaker 1: does that kind of wrap it up? I mean, if 838 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:30,759 Speaker 1: people figure that out, that's what they need to know. 839 00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:34,399 Speaker 1: It's not that difficult. Yeah, And I think ultimately it's 840 00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:36,640 Speaker 1: just it just takes a bit of research and a 841 00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:38,719 Speaker 1: bit of time. But you can sort it out if 842 00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,920 Speaker 1: you are um, if you are motivated. And I think 843 00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,040 Speaker 1: what happens to a lot of people when they start 844 00:41:45,080 --> 00:41:47,200 Speaker 1: reading and learning about it, is it just it lights 845 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: this fire in their mind and they're like, well, I 846 00:41:49,400 --> 00:41:50,839 Speaker 1: just I need to learn more about this. I want 847 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 1: to read books, and I want to listen to podcasts, 848 00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: and I want to listen to interviews and learn more 849 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 1: about it. So um, But look, fundamentally, you don't have 850 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,279 Speaker 1: to go all the way. You just have to dot 851 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,320 Speaker 1: and take some steps. And I would say for most people, 852 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:04,960 Speaker 1: once they get to kind of having a hardware wallet, um, 853 00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,160 Speaker 1: then that's already a pretty good level. And then once 854 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: you're learning to run your own bitcoin node, now you're 855 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,479 Speaker 1: kind of being more fully self sovereign. So that's great. Yeah, 856 00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:15,080 Speaker 1: that's a great point that you just brought up, and 857 00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 1: I think that's uh that you know, don't feel like 858 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,560 Speaker 1: you have to do all these things because you obviously 859 00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:21,520 Speaker 1: don't have to, and you definitely don't want to do 860 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:24,439 Speaker 1: them if it's over your technical ability. So you could 861 00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: be you could be jeopardizing yourself by trying to get 862 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:29,560 Speaker 1: safer but actually put yourself in more danger at the 863 00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: same time. So um, definitely don't want to go above 864 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,440 Speaker 1: your technical difficulty. Well that's good stuff. I appreciate you 865 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:38,000 Speaker 1: sharing that with the audience. Like I said, I've been 866 00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:40,239 Speaker 1: getting so many questions and I don't typically dig into 867 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,239 Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, so it's great. Great to be 868 00:42:42,239 --> 00:42:44,839 Speaker 1: able to have that UM to share UM for people 869 00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:46,560 Speaker 1: that want to learn more about this kind of stuff, 870 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: Why don't you shout out some places they can follow 871 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:51,240 Speaker 1: you or get more info. Yeah, sure, so you can 872 00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:55,160 Speaker 1: find me in your podcatcher applications, Stefan the Vera podcast, 873 00:42:55,280 --> 00:42:59,200 Speaker 1: Stefan le Vera dot com, and then our website, Ministry 874 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: of Notes don't com dot au is where we offer 875 00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: guides and consulting so people can book on with us 876 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,800 Speaker 1: and we can help you out. Currently, we actually just 877 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:09,719 Speaker 1: offered that on a pay what you think it was 878 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:11,959 Speaker 1: worth basis, So people do a call with us, either 879 00:43:11,960 --> 00:43:14,439 Speaker 1: me or with Katan, and basically they just pay whatever 880 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,839 Speaker 1: they think it was worth at the end of the call. 881 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,600 Speaker 1: That's that's all we that's all we kind of it's 882 00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:21,800 Speaker 1: like just our way of trying to help the community 883 00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: and help people learn how to take their financial sovereignty 884 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: into their own hands. That's awesome. That's awesome. What a 885 00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,799 Speaker 1: good service. Well, Stephan, thanks so much. I appreciate you 886 00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:32,160 Speaker 1: coming on and talking about that for us today. Thanks 887 00:43:32,200 --> 00:43:34,000 Speaker 1: very much, Mark, Its pleasure, all right,