WEBVTT - 50: 'Hamilton' -- From Smash Musical to Economics Syllabus 0:00:00.480 --> 0:00:03.400 Brought to you by stage Summit Live, the virtual conference 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:05.840 that provides all the highlights of Stage Summit from the 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:11.240 convenience of your desk. Celebrity entrepreneurs, inciple workshops absolutely free. 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.960 Register at stage summit livestream dot com. So, Dan, are 0:00:16.000 --> 0:00:18.720 you ready to go out and see Hamilton's yet? If 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:21.040 I could afford it? But you know, if I were 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.160 a Richmond, But I think I might enroll in your class. 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:33.920 How about that? Hey, the more of the merrier. Hello, 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.479 and welcome back to the Bloomberg Benchmark Podcast. It's Thursday, 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:42.480 August eleven. I'm Scott landman and Economics editor at Bloomberg 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:45.559 News in Washington, and I'm Daniel Moss, Executive editor for 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.279 Global Economics it Bloomberg in New York. Now, Dan, I've 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.160 been away from the show for the last couple of weeks, 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:53.279 and I just I was listening to them and they 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:57.080 were practically downers talking about how useless sports stadiums are 0:00:57.120 --> 0:01:01.400 for economic development, the legacy of slavery in Brazil. What 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.240 was going on? Yeah, you'd think we've never heard of 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.920 Michael Phelps. I thought that the pace on slavery in Brazil, 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:11.920 given the Olympics and given the swings and roundabouts of 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:15.920 Brazilian economics and politics, might have resonated. I guess I 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.319 was wrong. Anyway, I did think they were really interesting, 0:01:19.440 --> 0:01:23.240 but today we're going to go for something lighter. Hamilton's 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:26.800 has become a massive smash hit on Broadway since it 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:30.160 opened just about a year ago, and it recently won 0:01:30.319 --> 0:01:34.679 eleven Tony Awards, including Best Musical. There was something that 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.520 it was nominated twice in the same category for like 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.640 the actors and things like that, but it couldn't even 0:01:40.120 --> 0:01:43.560 win those twice obviously. Anyway, now it's about to make 0:01:43.600 --> 0:01:46.679 waves across the rest of the country. In late September, 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:50.160 premiers in Chicago for an open ended run. Then in 0:01:50.680 --> 0:01:53.640 sen it'll start showing in London, and also began a 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:56.480 tour around the United States. Right here in d C. 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.200 They're doing their best to squeeze the most demand out 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.960 of a limited supply of tickets. Uh, if you want 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:06.200 to be guaranteed to see Hamilton's at the Kennedy Center 0:02:06.240 --> 0:02:10.960 in you actually need to buy two full seasons worth 0:02:11.000 --> 0:02:14.200 of subscriptions to see the other shows there. And there 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:17.240 are people who are going to do that. Plenty of 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:20.280 people personally, I haven't seen the show yet, but I've 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:24.359 listened to the soundtrack many times. Dan, have you? I 0:02:24.400 --> 0:02:29.280 was just confessing with Matt earlier, I have not seen it. Well. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.240 Even my two daughters, who are two and four years old, 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.440 asked to hear the songs in the car and can 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:38.120 even recite some of the lyrics. But what makes it 0:02:38.240 --> 0:02:41.720 so great It takes the biography of the first Treasury 0:02:41.720 --> 0:02:44.799 Secretary and sets it to hip hop. The songs are 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.000 not only catchy, but they sometimes take fairly complicated economic 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:53.080 and financial concepts and boil them down to really creative songs. 0:02:53.200 --> 0:02:57.200 And joining us today to talk about it is Matt Rosy, 0:02:57.320 --> 0:03:01.600 and economics professor at Susquehanna Universe City in central Pennsylvania. 0:03:02.160 --> 0:03:04.079 Matt made the track all the way to New York 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:06.760 to be on our podcast and see some Broadway shows 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:09.519 with his family. So Matt, thanks so much for being 0:03:09.520 --> 0:03:12.119 with us today. Now, thank you for having me. Matt. 0:03:12.440 --> 0:03:15.880 How many of your students had actually heard of Alexander 0:03:15.960 --> 0:03:20.840 Hamilton's prior to this buzzy eruption with the Broadway show. Well, 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:23.200 I didn't do a poll, but I suspect most of 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.880 them had heard the name. Now, how many knew what 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:29.440 he did? That would have been a much smaller number. 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.640 So how are you incorporating Hamilton's into your lessons and 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:38.640 using a Broadway production to, you know, teach people about 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.920 his role in the country and the structure of the place. Sure, what, 0:03:42.040 --> 0:03:47.040 I love to use songs usually before class, sometimes during 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:51.040 class as a break to help illustrate economic concepts in general. 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:56.160 And for Hamilton's the musical, it has it has to 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.400 have about a dozen songs that when you listen to 0:03:59.440 --> 0:04:04.320 the songs illustrate economic concepts incredibly well. And of course, 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:06.160 I mean it's become a number one you know, it's 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:08.720 coome a best selling album. So it's the kind of 0:04:08.760 --> 0:04:12.880 thing when students here economics within Hamilton's right, they want 0:04:12.880 --> 0:04:15.080 to keep singing. These are the types of songs where 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:18.800 people will sing over and over. And my hope with 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.839 introducing songs to help teach economics and Hamilton's included, is 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:25.520 that they're singing over and over, then all of a 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:27.839 sudden they start to get the economic concept over and 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:30.799 over and it helps the students learn economics easier, better 0:04:30.839 --> 0:04:33.760 and make it more fun. All right, let's hold that 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.520 thought for a moment and listen to some music. What 0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.480 we're about to hear is one of my favorite songs 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:43.400 from Hamilton's and probably the one with the most specific 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:48.800 lyrics about finance and economics. It's called Cabinet Battle number one. 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.560 So let's hear a little clip. This is actually going 0:04:51.600 --> 0:04:57.200 to be uh, the actor playing Thomas Jefferson rapping. Oh, 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.440 but Hamilton's forgets. This plan would have the government assume 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.279 state debts. Now place your bets as to who that 0:05:03.360 --> 0:05:08.320 benefits the very seat of government where Hamilton, So, Matt, 0:05:08.400 --> 0:05:11.159 let's break that down. What is he talking about. It's 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:15.360 discussing the federal government assuming the state's debts, uh, and 0:05:15.760 --> 0:05:18.480 really establishing the what was kind of the precursor to 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.839 the Federal Reserve at the time, establishing a national bank 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:25.200 for the first time in this country. And that was 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:28.159 of course very controversial as you had at that time. 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:31.880 You have individuals and states that really wanted to be 0:05:31.920 --> 0:05:34.760 the United States, but it's the state governments that are 0:05:34.760 --> 0:05:38.320 the primary drivers of the economy. Whereas you have others 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:41.960 like Hamilton's, um, you know, Jefferson's on the state government side. 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:44.960 You have others like Alexander Hamilton's who wanted more a 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:48.679 stronger national government, and we're, you know, in the process, 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:50.800 we're thinking, in order to do this, let's, uh, you know, 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:53.919 let's form the national bank. Let's let's actually run a 0:05:54.040 --> 0:05:57.680 national debt, and which today, you know, the national debt 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.880 they were talking about running pales compared to the date 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:01.680 days that. But at the time, of course, it was 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.880 very controversial to run some national debt as the idea 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.400 that it would make, you know, would make America seem 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.200 more credible on the national stage and would actually encourage 0:06:10.320 --> 0:06:14.120 international trade. From this perspective, the development of a national 0:06:14.160 --> 0:06:17.400 economy looks like it was inevitable. But what you're saying, 0:06:17.400 --> 0:06:20.800 and what the song's implying is it wasn't necessarily so sure, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:23.560 there were plenty of people who did not want who 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.040 would have rather had it be. Each individual state kind 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:29.719 of controls their own destiny or controls their own economy 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:33.360 more than a nationally controlled economy. And in post two 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.360 thousand a night, the term bailout is a toxic term, 0:06:36.800 --> 0:06:39.000 is the song. And as I said, I haven't seen 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:43.360 the music, but does the song kind of imply bail 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.680 out of the state's probably not a good thing. One 0:06:46.440 --> 0:06:48.600 so forth, and so I think there, I certainly think 0:06:48.640 --> 0:06:51.840 there's some implications for there. There's also the line, um, 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:54.440 you know, the this plan as an outrageous demand and 0:06:54.480 --> 0:06:57.160 it's too many damn pages for any man to understand. 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.320 And the moment I heard that line, the first thing 0:06:59.360 --> 0:07:02.640 I thought of was that we have people in Congress 0:07:02.640 --> 0:07:04.840 and the Senate who have passed you know, who have 0:07:04.880 --> 0:07:07.719 passed the stimulus bills or paths, who are who voted 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:11.000 for the Affordable Care Act or you know, Obamacare as 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.040 it's known. Without well admitting I didn't read the plan, 0:07:14.440 --> 0:07:16.120 and so when I saw that, I thought the lyrics 0:07:16.120 --> 0:07:19.400 were incredibly relevant to a lot of the problems that 0:07:19.440 --> 0:07:21.120 we do see today, or at least a lot of 0:07:21.120 --> 0:07:23.240 the issues that are coming up today. How would you 0:07:23.240 --> 0:07:27.880 work this specifically into your class lessons? And what specific 0:07:27.920 --> 0:07:31.200 concepts which would you use for this? So for this one, 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.240 if I'm teaching, um so for monetary you know, if 0:07:34.240 --> 0:07:36.680 I'm teaching about the Federal Reserve, often I'll put this 0:07:36.720 --> 0:07:40.920 song in ahead of time, and largely for this particular song, 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.560 and I'll have to um admit I have not taught 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:47.560 macro economics since I have had this song at my disposal. 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:49.720 What I would probably do is I don't know how 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:51.640 much I would integrate it in and of itself. Now 0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:54.360 I do have discussion questions on my on the website 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.280 I helped create Broadway Economics dot Com that professors could 0:07:58.400 --> 0:08:00.840 use towards this. But what where I really like to 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:02.800 use the music is kind of do the lesson, but 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:06.000 then either play the songs before or after to have 0:08:06.120 --> 0:08:08.960 people realize, you know, these these are issues. These these 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.840 issues don't have to be dry and dullsues are exciting, right. 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:14.760 I mean, if you listen to Cabinet Battle number one, 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:16.920 it's like it's a party, you know, ladies and gentlemen. 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:18.920 You could have been anywhere in the whole world, but 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:21.200 you're in New York and we're gonna have a cabinet meeting, 0:08:21.440 --> 0:08:23.600 and you know, it's as riot as event. It's all. 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.760 It's exciting and everybody's thrilled to be there, and it's 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:30.120 a rap battle. And usually for music, I'll play pre 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:33.319 class music, Um before the students will show up, I'll 0:08:33.360 --> 0:08:36.400 cue the music to start. Let's say Cabinet Battles about 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:38.520 a three minute song about three minutes before class starts. 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:41.560 I will begin the music. So the downside some students 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:43.320 don't see that, But the upside is it doesn't actually 0:08:43.320 --> 0:08:46.360 take any class time. And then we asked discussion questions, Okay, 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.360 we just heard this great song, Where where where? What 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:51.360 are the economic ideas we just saw in this song? 0:08:51.559 --> 0:08:54.880 So how many of your students and how much of 0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.920 the audience actually knows what the Federals of is? For example, 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.040 if they're taking the class, they've they've certainly heard it 0:09:01.080 --> 0:09:03.199 by the time I get to them. It's a good question. 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:04.640 As far as I pull them ahead of time, I 0:09:04.640 --> 0:09:07.200 think most of the students will have at least heard 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:09.439 of the Federal Reserve. Well, they know what their roles 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.680 are coming in as eighteen and nineteen year old. Probably 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:15.040 less than a quarter kind of know what the Federal 0:09:15.080 --> 0:09:20.040 Reserve is doing prior to taking Principles of macro Economics class. 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.559 So really, what you're trying to do here is convey 0:09:23.679 --> 0:09:27.720 to your students that an economy and the development of 0:09:27.760 --> 0:09:32.080 economic policy it's a living, breathing thing. It's not preordained. 0:09:32.280 --> 0:09:36.319 There are people making these decisions. They're bringing their own perspective, 0:09:36.800 --> 0:09:39.600 they're shaped by their own histories. That that would be 0:09:39.679 --> 0:09:43.480 histories with a small age. Uh, And it's not some 0:09:44.000 --> 0:09:48.680 giant preordained, very sort of dry conspiracy. If I get 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:51.640 nothing else out of doing the songs, I really want 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:54.760 my students to think economics is fun. If students come 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:57.679 out of economics thinking this was a great subject, this 0:09:57.760 --> 0:10:00.320 is entertaining. And yes, you know the whole idea of 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:02.920 the history. Maybe I thought that we just evolved and 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.800 it was just preordained we would be here, as you mentioned, No, 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:09.240 this wasn't preordained, right, these were There were pretty epic 0:10:09.240 --> 0:10:12.640 battles between Jefferson and Hamilton's and throughout the you know, 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.800 and if when once you start to think about that, 0:10:14.840 --> 0:10:18.000 you can realize, okay, maybe we're hearing about this one, 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:21.200 but what other battles happened throughout our history that caused 0:10:21.240 --> 0:10:22.600 us to be the way? I mean, the Federal Reserve 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:25.960 didn't start until the early twentieth century, right, This central 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.200 bank actually existed for a while, and then it's time expired, 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:31.800 and it wasn't renewed for a period of time, and 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:33.880 then it was renewed again. And it wasn't until the 0:10:33.880 --> 0:10:36.200 Federal Reserve that we've had one that's now stuck for 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:38.160 for about a hundred years, like I'm trying to I 0:10:38.200 --> 0:10:41.439 think it was nine. But there's still but there's popular 0:10:42.280 --> 0:10:46.679 opposition or maybe skepticism or at least or some movement 0:10:46.760 --> 0:10:49.800 to change the structure of the Federal Reserve system. It's 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.000 been been kind of ossified the way it is for 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:55.040 for for its hundred year history. And you do here 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:58.120 skepticism on both sides of the political I think it's 0:10:58.120 --> 0:11:00.199 structure is also fought. Are you saying that's just the 0:11:00.200 --> 0:11:03.880 way it's characterized, characterized in some way but but in 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.080 some ways that but the geographic regions of the FED 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:11.439 are certainly ossified. And even Janet Yelling herself said, if 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:15.000 it were created today, you probably have different regional boundaries 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:18.040 form for the FED districts. And you know there is 0:11:18.080 --> 0:11:22.599 that skepticism of of central money creation that continues in 0:11:22.679 --> 0:11:25.880 certain political corners to this day, right, Yeah, I mean 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:30.560 major presidential candidate. I believe it's Rand Paul who you 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.319 know his book was? Was it? It was either Rand 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:33.760 or Ron Paul? I can't remember. At the top, my 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:35.520 dad wrote the book. His dad the son and his 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:39.640 son continued the tradition. The book's titled End the fed right, Yeah, 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:42.560 And I mean it's an issue there, you know, it's 0:11:42.640 --> 0:11:44.160 it's an issue where you actually get some in the 0:11:44.200 --> 0:11:48.240 Republican Party and some in the Democratic Party who would 0:11:48.280 --> 0:11:51.400 like to see the Federal Reserve either eliminated or modified, 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:53.760 or maybe they just don't understand. It's a big entity 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.960 and they don't understand what it's doing. And you know, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:11:59.920 because of that, there's a skepticism for it. All right, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.280 let's hold this thought as we pause for a break 0:12:02.280 --> 0:12:12.560 from our sponsor. Brought to you by stage Summit Live, 0:12:12.760 --> 0:12:15.600 the virtual conference that provides all the highlights at Stage 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:19.840 Summit from the convenience of your desk. Celebrity entrepreneurs, Incifle 0:12:19.880 --> 0:12:26.959 workshops absolutely free. Register at stage Summit live stream dot com. 0:12:27.040 --> 0:12:28.640 Let's go back to the music for a minute and 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.120 play another song. This is a clip from a song 0:12:32.200 --> 0:12:36.040 called Satisfied and what You're what you'll hear singing or 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.320 rapping if you will, is is the woman who plays 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:45.880 Angelica Skyler singing. She's the sister of Hamilton's love interest Eliza. 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.959 So here we go. I'm gonna grow in the world 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.559 in which my only job is the very rich. My 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:54.840 father has no son, so I'm a one who has 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.480 the social fly. I'm the oldest and the widdy in 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.000 the gap has been to New York City, is Andy 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:08.960 and Alexander. So, Matt, you say that this actually illustrates 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.920 a key concept in economics, what would you say? Yeah, 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:15.200 I actually think this is there's kind of two concepts 0:13:15.240 --> 0:13:18.079 that this song illustrates incredibly well. And that's the idea 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.960 of tradeoffs and the idea of an opportunity costs, which 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:24.800 are two of the more central ideas trying to teach 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:29.000 right at the beginning of well an economics education, right 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:31.920 and when I teach principles of macroeconomics, really in the 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:34.640 first week, we're hammering on you know what what what 0:13:34.640 --> 0:13:37.000 what does it mean to have trade offs for for 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:40.439 an introductory you know, for an incoming first year, second 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:42.520 year or a second year student. Often they haven't thought 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.079 about this um the trade offs in this song, naturally, 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.439 Angelica Skyler is thinking through Well, she sees Alexander Hamilton's 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:52.840 and instantly there's an attraction and likes him and talks 0:13:52.880 --> 0:13:55.680 to him and thinks this guy is amazing and is 0:13:55.720 --> 0:14:00.840 fascinated by him, but realizes he's poor and she's mentioning 0:14:00.840 --> 0:14:04.920 in the song her job is to marry rich, and 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:08.520 there's also that Alexander might want. Part of what might 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:12.160 be attractive about her. You know why she might be 0:14:12.280 --> 0:14:15.800 attractive to Alexander is that she has a lot of money. 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.080 And there's a third The third line mentions how her 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.680 sister also likes Alexander, and her sister would say it's okay, 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:25.520 but you know, Angelica says what she'd be lying when 0:14:25.560 --> 0:14:28.000 she says that her sister would be happy if she 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.560 was with Alexander. And at the end of the song, 0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:33.240 it seems pretty clear she thinks she made the right decision, 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.760 but it really really pains her. And that's a great idea. 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.440 The opportunity cost of choosing to be with Alexander would 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:46.040 have been not marrying Rich right and hurting her sister marriage. 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.720 The ultimate economic institution. Ultimate economic instituall I mean in 0:14:49.800 --> 0:14:53.600 family that's coming right. Offs to come in, and certainly 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:58.200 the trade off you're trading off your happiness in one way, 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.240 um for money. You're trading off your sister's happiness for money. UM. 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:06.960 It's just a fantastic song that shows tradeoffs on a 0:15:07.000 --> 0:15:09.400 on a high stakes decision that's not monetary, and a 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:12.920 lot of the tradeoffs in life are high stakes, right, 0:15:12.960 --> 0:15:14.280 I mean, do you get a cancer, you know, if 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:17.000 you're diagnosed with a disease, do you go get cancer treatment? Right? 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:19.040 I mean these are there are high stakes tradeoff decisions 0:15:19.040 --> 0:15:22.240 people have on a daily basis. And this song, with 0:15:22.280 --> 0:15:25.680 a lot of emotion and power, I think, really captures 0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:28.720 trade offs and opportunity costs. You address this a little 0:15:28.720 --> 0:15:31.640 bit a few minutes ago. Is the concept of a 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:36.280 trade off in economics and the development of economic policy 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:39.600 something that's alien to your students when they first come 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.440 to you. Certainly all students have experienced tradeoffs, but I 0:15:43.480 --> 0:15:46.440 think a lot of them will miss the idea that 0:15:46.480 --> 0:15:50.160 there are tradeoffs when they're thinking about various policies. They 0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:53.360 might not realize. And you'll see this both on like 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:56.320 the political spectrum. It's inevitable that politics comes up now 0:15:56.360 --> 0:15:59.040 and you teach the introductory level economics, it's more what 0:15:59.120 --> 0:16:02.200 we call positive and analysis. It really doesn't delve into 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.080 the political um, the normative what should we do? But 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:07.880 it's kind of natural. I mean, you're starting to talk 0:16:07.920 --> 0:16:11.240 about the ideas of you know, minimum wages or tax 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:14.640 increases or tax cuts, the tradeoffs come in, and a 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.360 lot of individuals will come in with their political ideas thinking, well, 0:16:18.400 --> 0:16:21.000 whatever side i've heard, there must be no downside to 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:23.320 this particular policy, and we'll never have to cut a 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.000 deal to get it. I ever have to cut a 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:26.720 deal to get a cuff, of course. Yeah, and so 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.520 there's well, I think they've all experienced that, the idea 0:16:30.600 --> 0:16:32.840 that it happens in politics. I do agree to summits 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:34.920 foreign and so I think part of the job is 0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.200 that I have when teaching economics is to help make 0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:42.080 the student understand. Look, these are everywhere. You've experienced them 0:16:42.080 --> 0:16:44.080 your whole life, Right, You've had to figure out what 0:16:44.160 --> 0:16:45.680 you wanted to do for the afternoon. Do you want 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.960 to go work perhaps and earn a few dollars, or 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:49.160 do you want to go out and have fun and 0:16:49.160 --> 0:16:51.720 you'll spend money and have less money the next day? 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.360 Or you know what particular class do you want to take? 0:16:54.400 --> 0:16:56.120 There's trade offs for that or I mean all of 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.160 the decisions in life, there's particular trade offs. They've they've 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:02.320 experienced them. The ideas then okay, let's carry that over. 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:04.879 Those those don't just magically go away in the world 0:17:04.920 --> 0:17:08.360 of politics and the world of economic decision making. Does 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:10.600 it trouble you that they come to you without this 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.720 saints that they're compromises to be made to get your policy, 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:18.720 whatever it is, enacted, and that they have to do 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:23.719 try it off. Does that say something, say something you 0:17:23.720 --> 0:17:29.000 know troubling about society today. I don't know that I'd 0:17:29.040 --> 0:17:31.439 go quite that far. I do. I mean, would I 0:17:31.480 --> 0:17:33.560 love if everybody had that? Yeah? I would. I would 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:36.280 like if they had that they're taking you know, I 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.719 look back at myself and would I at eighteen have 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.320 have of course, yeah, yeah, But I really don't think 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.520 I would have. It's part of the learning process. So 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:46.760 I don't find it troubling. And what I tell the 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:49.360 students when they struggle with any particular topic, if if 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:52.560 they understood everything in the book already, there's no need 0:17:52.600 --> 0:17:54.639 for the class, right. Part of my job is to 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:58.960 help to help them understand. And so I don't know 0:17:59.000 --> 0:18:01.440 that I find it as as troubling as some others 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.400 might find it. My hope is as far as having 0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:06.639 maximum impact. If we have individuals who come in and 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.520 don't understand trade offs, and I'm able to help some 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.360 people get oh yeah, there are trade offs. There's trade 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:13.960 offs everywhere, and they come out of the class thinking 0:18:14.000 --> 0:18:16.200 that I'll think I did a pretty good job. Matt. 0:18:16.240 --> 0:18:19.280 Can you tell us anymore about your Broadway Economics website 0:18:19.280 --> 0:18:22.040 and which other songs or shows outside of Hamilton's you 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.359 liked for a teaching economics. Oh? Absolutely, So it's on 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:28.800 Broadway Economics dot com. I think it's about forty five 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:32.440 or so songs from different shows and you could see 0:18:32.480 --> 0:18:34.280 the songs that's got the links to the lyrics, and 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:36.800 it also has discussion questions if educators want to use 0:18:36.840 --> 0:18:41.359 these in their classes. The Broadway songs are fantastic for 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:44.760 teaching economic concept because Broadway musicals tell stories, and a 0:18:44.800 --> 0:18:46.680 lot of the a lot of the stories are about 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:49.000 economic issues. So, for example, one of the shows I'm 0:18:49.000 --> 0:18:51.679 seeing this afternoon is Fiddler on the Roof If I 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:53.840 were a rich man, I think is a fantastic song 0:18:53.960 --> 0:18:57.119 as far as teaching economic concepts. The initial you know, 0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:58.560 you hear the title and you think, oh, yeah, that 0:18:58.600 --> 0:19:00.840 has to deal with economy. Mix of course he's talking 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:03.560 about what happens if he's rich, But there's actually this 0:19:03.640 --> 0:19:06.040 is one of my favorite songs to use because if 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.520 you peel it back a layer, there's much more to it. Uh, 0:19:09.560 --> 0:19:12.880 Teva is singing um about I think it's Teva. It's 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:17.159 the character's name, is singing about being rich from his 0:19:17.240 --> 0:19:20.719 perspective in I believe it's nineteen o five Russia, and 0:19:20.800 --> 0:19:24.520 to Teva, being rich would mean having lots of farm animals, 0:19:25.240 --> 0:19:30.159 having two sets of stairs, and having a wife with 0:19:30.200 --> 0:19:32.359 a proper double chin. As he's saying, you know, a 0:19:32.359 --> 0:19:35.640 well fed wife, that's being rich. You know, that's that's 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:38.880 a rich person in Teva's world. So, I mean, I'm 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:41.320 going to Fiddler today and I'm thinking to myself, I mean, 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.200 we are beyond anything Teva could have imagined in terms 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:47.120 of rich And I think there's a powerful message about 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:51.280 economic growth there in the economic growth that's occurred in 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.960 the past hundred years or hundred and fifty years. In 0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:58.600 many countries we all lived like Teva to three four 0:19:59.080 --> 0:20:02.720 years ago, not all, but of the world's population, there's 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.760 still many parts of the world today that are incredibly poor. 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.000 What is brought parts of the world to live so 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.200 to be so incredibly wealthy, And that there's a story 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.360 there that helps illustrate, helps kind of prime students for 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.240 a lesson on economic growth. So that's one of my 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:22.600 favorite songs. And some of the same concepts are in 0:20:22.640 --> 0:20:25.520 Hamilton's Who Came From you know, as an immigrant from 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:27.680 the Caribbean, and you get a lot of that kind 0:20:27.720 --> 0:20:29.920 of stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, and that show as well. Yeah. 0:20:29.920 --> 0:20:32.720 The first line from the song, right, um, how does 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:35.960 the bastard, orphan son of a whore, um, you know, 0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:40.240 become a hero and a scholar? Right? That's fantastic ten 0:20:41.160 --> 0:20:45.960 dollar founding father without a father. I really like using 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.320 that song in terms of kind of making students think, um, 0:20:49.400 --> 0:20:52.320 I think through various issues. There's a number of songs 0:20:52.320 --> 0:20:56.560 that would illustrate ideas of economic competition. Another show that's 0:20:56.680 --> 0:20:59.840 on UM that's on Broadway right now is Something Rotten 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.880 and that show has a song called a Musical, which 0:21:02.880 --> 0:21:05.800 is kind of a big show stopping number, but it's 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.280 a nice idea. It's a nice introduction to kind of 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.440 innovation and how firms might innovate because they are trying 0:21:11.480 --> 0:21:13.760 to figure out what the next best thing when theater 0:21:13.840 --> 0:21:17.119 should be and this is in UM around six hundred 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:19.120 in England, and they come up with the idea of well, 0:21:19.160 --> 0:21:21.159 let's do a musical and all of the ideas and 0:21:21.160 --> 0:21:24.560 why this would be an innovative, innovative process, and it's 0:21:24.560 --> 0:21:26.840 a it's a great song in terms of illustrating the 0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:29.520