1 00:00:00,480 --> 00:00:03,400 Speaker 1: Brought to you by stage Summit Live, the virtual conference 2 00:00:03,440 --> 00:00:05,840 Speaker 1: that provides all the highlights of Stage Summit from the 3 00:00:05,840 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: convenience of your desk. Celebrity entrepreneurs, inciple workshops absolutely free. 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: Register at stage summit livestream dot com. So, Dan, are 5 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: you ready to go out and see Hamilton's yet? If 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: I could afford it? But you know, if I were 7 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: a Richmond, But I think I might enroll in your class. 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:33,920 Speaker 1: How about that? Hey, the more of the merrier. Hello, 9 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,479 Speaker 1: and welcome back to the Bloomberg Benchmark Podcast. It's Thursday, 10 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,480 Speaker 1: August eleven. I'm Scott landman and Economics editor at Bloomberg 11 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 1: News in Washington, and I'm Daniel Moss, Executive editor for 12 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:49,279 Speaker 1: Global Economics it Bloomberg in New York. Now, Dan, I've 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: been away from the show for the last couple of weeks, 14 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:53,279 Speaker 1: and I just I was listening to them and they 15 00:00:53,280 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: were practically downers talking about how useless sports stadiums are 16 00:00:57,120 --> 00:01:01,400 Speaker 1: for economic development, the legacy of slavery in Brazil. What 17 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 1: was going on? Yeah, you'd think we've never heard of 18 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,920 Speaker 1: Michael Phelps. I thought that the pace on slavery in Brazil, 19 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:11,920 Speaker 1: given the Olympics and given the swings and roundabouts of 20 00:01:11,959 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: Brazilian economics and politics, might have resonated. I guess I 21 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: was wrong. Anyway, I did think they were really interesting, 22 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:23,240 Speaker 1: but today we're going to go for something lighter. Hamilton's 23 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: has become a massive smash hit on Broadway since it 24 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: opened just about a year ago, and it recently won 25 00:01:30,319 --> 00:01:34,679 Speaker 1: eleven Tony Awards, including Best Musical. There was something that 26 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 1: it was nominated twice in the same category for like 27 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: the actors and things like that, but it couldn't even 28 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: win those twice obviously. Anyway, now it's about to make 29 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: waves across the rest of the country. In late September, 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: premiers in Chicago for an open ended run. Then in 31 00:01:50,680 --> 00:01:53,640 Speaker 1: sen it'll start showing in London, and also began a 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: tour around the United States. Right here in d C. 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: They're doing their best to squeeze the most demand out 34 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:02,960 Speaker 1: of a limited supply of tickets. Uh, if you want 35 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:06,200 Speaker 1: to be guaranteed to see Hamilton's at the Kennedy Center 36 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: in you actually need to buy two full seasons worth 37 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: of subscriptions to see the other shows there. And there 38 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 1: are people who are going to do that. Plenty of 39 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: people personally, I haven't seen the show yet, but I've 40 00:02:20,280 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: listened to the soundtrack many times. Dan, have you? I 41 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:29,280 Speaker 1: was just confessing with Matt earlier, I have not seen it. Well. 42 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,240 Speaker 1: Even my two daughters, who are two and four years old, 43 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: asked to hear the songs in the car and can 44 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:38,120 Speaker 1: even recite some of the lyrics. But what makes it 45 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: so great It takes the biography of the first Treasury 46 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,799 Speaker 1: Secretary and sets it to hip hop. The songs are 47 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: not only catchy, but they sometimes take fairly complicated economic 48 00:02:49,080 --> 00:02:53,080 Speaker 1: and financial concepts and boil them down to really creative songs. 49 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 1: And joining us today to talk about it is Matt Rosy, 50 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: and economics professor at Susquehanna Universe City in central Pennsylvania. 51 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,079 Speaker 1: Matt made the track all the way to New York 52 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: to be on our podcast and see some Broadway shows 53 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: with his family. So Matt, thanks so much for being 54 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 1: with us today. Now, thank you for having me. Matt. 55 00:03:12,440 --> 00:03:15,880 Speaker 1: How many of your students had actually heard of Alexander 56 00:03:15,960 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: Hamilton's prior to this buzzy eruption with the Broadway show. Well, 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: I didn't do a poll, but I suspect most of 58 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: them had heard the name. Now, how many knew what 59 00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:29,440 Speaker 1: he did? That would have been a much smaller number. 60 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: So how are you incorporating Hamilton's into your lessons and 61 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: using a Broadway production to, you know, teach people about 62 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:41,920 Speaker 1: his role in the country and the structure of the place. Sure, what, 63 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:47,040 Speaker 1: I love to use songs usually before class, sometimes during 64 00:03:47,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: class as a break to help illustrate economic concepts in general. 65 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:56,160 Speaker 1: And for Hamilton's the musical, it has it has to 66 00:03:56,200 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 1: have about a dozen songs that when you listen to 67 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: the songs illustrate economic concepts incredibly well. And of course, 68 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's become a number one you know, it's 69 00:04:06,200 --> 00:04:08,720 Speaker 1: coome a best selling album. So it's the kind of 70 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:12,880 Speaker 1: thing when students here economics within Hamilton's right, they want 71 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: to keep singing. These are the types of songs where 72 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 1: people will sing over and over. And my hope with 73 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 1: introducing songs to help teach economics and Hamilton's included, is 74 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: that they're singing over and over, then all of a 75 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:27,839 Speaker 1: sudden they start to get the economic concept over and 76 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:30,799 Speaker 1: over and it helps the students learn economics easier, better 77 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: and make it more fun. All right, let's hold that 78 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 1: thought for a moment and listen to some music. What 79 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 1: we're about to hear is one of my favorite songs 80 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: from Hamilton's and probably the one with the most specific 81 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:48,800 Speaker 1: lyrics about finance and economics. It's called Cabinet Battle number one. 82 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: So let's hear a little clip. This is actually going 83 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: to be uh, the actor playing Thomas Jefferson rapping. Oh, 84 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: but Hamilton's forgets. This plan would have the government assume 85 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: state debts. Now place your bets as to who that 86 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: benefits the very seat of government where Hamilton, So, Matt, 87 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: let's break that down. What is he talking about. It's 88 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: discussing the federal government assuming the state's debts, uh, and 89 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:18,480 Speaker 1: really establishing the what was kind of the precursor to 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve at the time, establishing a national bank 91 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: for the first time in this country. And that was 92 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,159 Speaker 1: of course very controversial as you had at that time. 93 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 1: You have individuals and states that really wanted to be 94 00:05:31,920 --> 00:05:34,760 Speaker 1: the United States, but it's the state governments that are 95 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: the primary drivers of the economy. Whereas you have others 96 00:05:38,360 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: like Hamilton's, um, you know, Jefferson's on the state government side. 97 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: You have others like Alexander Hamilton's who wanted more a 98 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:48,679 Speaker 1: stronger national government, and we're, you know, in the process, 99 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: we're thinking, in order to do this, let's, uh, you know, 100 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,919 Speaker 1: let's form the national bank. Let's let's actually run a 101 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: national debt, and which today, you know, the national debt 102 00:05:57,680 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: they were talking about running pales compared to the date 103 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: days that. But at the time, of course, it was 104 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: very controversial to run some national debt as the idea 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: that it would make, you know, would make America seem 106 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: more credible on the national stage and would actually encourage 107 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:14,120 Speaker 1: international trade. From this perspective, the development of a national 108 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: economy looks like it was inevitable. But what you're saying, 109 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: and what the song's implying is it wasn't necessarily so sure, 110 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: there were plenty of people who did not want who 111 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,040 Speaker 1: would have rather had it be. Each individual state kind 112 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,719 Speaker 1: of controls their own destiny or controls their own economy 113 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: more than a nationally controlled economy. And in post two 114 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: thousand a night, the term bailout is a toxic term, 115 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: is the song. And as I said, I haven't seen 116 00:06:39,000 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: the music, but does the song kind of imply bail 117 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: out of the state's probably not a good thing. One 118 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,600 Speaker 1: so forth, and so I think there, I certainly think 119 00:06:48,640 --> 00:06:51,840 Speaker 1: there's some implications for there. There's also the line, um, 120 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: you know, the this plan as an outrageous demand and 121 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: it's too many damn pages for any man to understand. 122 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: And the moment I heard that line, the first thing 123 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: I thought of was that we have people in Congress 124 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: and the Senate who have passed you know, who have 125 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: passed the stimulus bills or paths, who are who voted 126 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: for the Affordable Care Act or you know, Obamacare as 127 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: it's known. Without well admitting I didn't read the plan, 128 00:07:14,440 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: and so when I saw that, I thought the lyrics 129 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 1: were incredibly relevant to a lot of the problems that 130 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:21,120 Speaker 1: we do see today, or at least a lot of 131 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: the issues that are coming up today. How would you 132 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 1: work this specifically into your class lessons? And what specific 133 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 1: concepts which would you use for this? So for this one, 134 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: if I'm teaching, um so for monetary you know, if 135 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,680 Speaker 1: I'm teaching about the Federal Reserve, often I'll put this 136 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: song in ahead of time, and largely for this particular song, 137 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: and I'll have to um admit I have not taught 138 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: macro economics since I have had this song at my disposal. 139 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: What I would probably do is I don't know how 140 00:07:49,760 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: much I would integrate it in and of itself. Now 141 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,360 Speaker 1: I do have discussion questions on my on the website 142 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: I helped create Broadway Economics dot Com that professors could 143 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:00,840 Speaker 1: use towards this. But what where I really like to 144 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:02,800 Speaker 1: use the music is kind of do the lesson, but 145 00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:06,000 Speaker 1: then either play the songs before or after to have 146 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:08,960 Speaker 1: people realize, you know, these these are issues. These these 147 00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: issues don't have to be dry and dullsues are exciting, right. 148 00:08:12,840 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if you listen to Cabinet Battle number one, 149 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: it's like it's a party, you know, ladies and gentlemen. 150 00:08:16,920 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 1: You could have been anywhere in the whole world, but 151 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: you're in New York and we're gonna have a cabinet meeting, 152 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:23,600 Speaker 1: and you know, it's as riot as event. It's all. 153 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: It's exciting and everybody's thrilled to be there, and it's 154 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: a rap battle. And usually for music, I'll play pre 155 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: class music, Um before the students will show up, I'll 156 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: cue the music to start. Let's say Cabinet Battles about 157 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 1: a three minute song about three minutes before class starts. 158 00:08:38,559 --> 00:08:41,560 Speaker 1: I will begin the music. So the downside some students 159 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: don't see that, But the upside is it doesn't actually 160 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: take any class time. And then we asked discussion questions, Okay, 161 00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: we just heard this great song, Where where where? What 162 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 1: are the economic ideas we just saw in this song? 163 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: So how many of your students and how much of 164 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:58,920 Speaker 1: the audience actually knows what the Federals of is? For example, 165 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 1: if they're taking the class, they've they've certainly heard it 166 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,199 Speaker 1: by the time I get to them. It's a good question. 167 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,640 Speaker 1: As far as I pull them ahead of time, I 168 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: think most of the students will have at least heard 169 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,439 Speaker 1: of the Federal Reserve. Well, they know what their roles 170 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,680 Speaker 1: are coming in as eighteen and nineteen year old. Probably 171 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: less than a quarter kind of know what the Federal 172 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: Reserve is doing prior to taking Principles of macro Economics class. 173 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,559 Speaker 1: So really, what you're trying to do here is convey 174 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: to your students that an economy and the development of 175 00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: economic policy it's a living, breathing thing. It's not preordained. 176 00:09:32,280 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 1: There are people making these decisions. They're bringing their own perspective, 177 00:09:36,800 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 1: they're shaped by their own histories. That that would be 178 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 1: histories with a small age. Uh, And it's not some 179 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: giant preordained, very sort of dry conspiracy. If I get 180 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: nothing else out of doing the songs, I really want 181 00:09:51,640 --> 00:09:54,760 Speaker 1: my students to think economics is fun. If students come 182 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: out of economics thinking this was a great subject, this 183 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: is entertaining. And yes, you know the whole idea of 184 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: the history. Maybe I thought that we just evolved and 185 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: it was just preordained we would be here, as you mentioned, No, 186 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: this wasn't preordained, right, these were There were pretty epic 187 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 1: battles between Jefferson and Hamilton's and throughout the you know, 188 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 1: and if when once you start to think about that, 189 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,000 Speaker 1: you can realize, okay, maybe we're hearing about this one, 190 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 1: but what other battles happened throughout our history that caused 191 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 1: us to be the way? I mean, the Federal Reserve 192 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:25,960 Speaker 1: didn't start until the early twentieth century, right, This central 193 00:10:25,960 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: bank actually existed for a while, and then it's time expired, 194 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:31,800 Speaker 1: and it wasn't renewed for a period of time, and 195 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:33,880 Speaker 1: then it was renewed again. And it wasn't until the 196 00:10:33,880 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 1: Federal Reserve that we've had one that's now stuck for 197 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: for about a hundred years, like I'm trying to I 198 00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 1: think it was nine. But there's still but there's popular 199 00:10:42,280 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: opposition or maybe skepticism or at least or some movement 200 00:10:46,760 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: to change the structure of the Federal Reserve system. It's 201 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 1: been been kind of ossified the way it is for 202 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: for for its hundred year history. And you do here 203 00:10:55,200 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: skepticism on both sides of the political I think it's 204 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:00,199 Speaker 1: structure is also fought. Are you saying that's just the 205 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:03,880 Speaker 1: way it's characterized, characterized in some way but but in 206 00:11:03,880 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 1: some ways that but the geographic regions of the FED 207 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 1: are certainly ossified. And even Janet Yelling herself said, if 208 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,000 Speaker 1: it were created today, you probably have different regional boundaries 209 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: form for the FED districts. And you know there is 210 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:22,599 Speaker 1: that skepticism of of central money creation that continues in 211 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 1: certain political corners to this day, right, Yeah, I mean 212 00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: major presidential candidate. I believe it's Rand Paul who you 213 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: know his book was? Was it? It was either Rand 214 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: or Ron Paul? I can't remember. At the top, my 215 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:35,520 Speaker 1: dad wrote the book. His dad the son and his 216 00:11:35,600 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: son continued the tradition. The book's titled End the fed right, Yeah, 217 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 1: And I mean it's an issue there, you know, it's 218 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:44,160 Speaker 1: it's an issue where you actually get some in the 219 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: Republican Party and some in the Democratic Party who would 220 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: like to see the Federal Reserve either eliminated or modified, 221 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 1: or maybe they just don't understand. It's a big entity 222 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: and they don't understand what it's doing. And you know, 223 00:11:57,040 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: because of that, there's a skepticism for it. All right, 224 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 1: let's hold this thought as we pause for a break 225 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: from our sponsor. Brought to you by stage Summit Live, 226 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:15,600 Speaker 1: the virtual conference that provides all the highlights at Stage 227 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 1: Summit from the convenience of your desk. Celebrity entrepreneurs, Incifle 228 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:26,959 Speaker 1: workshops absolutely free. Register at stage Summit live stream dot com. 229 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: Let's go back to the music for a minute and 230 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: play another song. This is a clip from a song 231 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,040 Speaker 1: called Satisfied and what You're what you'll hear singing or 232 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,320 Speaker 1: rapping if you will, is is the woman who plays 233 00:12:39,440 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 1: Angelica Skyler singing. She's the sister of Hamilton's love interest Eliza. 234 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 1: So here we go. I'm gonna grow in the world 235 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: in which my only job is the very rich. My 236 00:12:52,760 --> 00:12:54,840 Speaker 1: father has no son, so I'm a one who has 237 00:12:54,880 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: the social fly. I'm the oldest and the widdy in 238 00:12:57,760 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: the gap has been to New York City, is Andy 239 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 1: and Alexander. So, Matt, you say that this actually illustrates 240 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: a key concept in economics, what would you say? Yeah, 241 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 1: I actually think this is there's kind of two concepts 242 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:18,079 Speaker 1: that this song illustrates incredibly well. And that's the idea 243 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,960 Speaker 1: of tradeoffs and the idea of an opportunity costs, which 244 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 1: are two of the more central ideas trying to teach 245 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: right at the beginning of well an economics education, right 246 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: and when I teach principles of macroeconomics, really in the 247 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,640 Speaker 1: first week, we're hammering on you know what what what 248 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:37,000 Speaker 1: what does it mean to have trade offs for for 249 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,439 Speaker 1: an introductory you know, for an incoming first year, second 250 00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: year or a second year student. Often they haven't thought 251 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 1: about this um the trade offs in this song, naturally, 252 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,439 Speaker 1: Angelica Skyler is thinking through Well, she sees Alexander Hamilton's 253 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: and instantly there's an attraction and likes him and talks 254 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 1: to him and thinks this guy is amazing and is 255 00:13:55,720 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: fascinated by him, but realizes he's poor and she's mentioning 256 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 1: in the song her job is to marry rich, and 257 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 1: there's also that Alexander might want. Part of what might 258 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:12,160 Speaker 1: be attractive about her. You know why she might be 259 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: attractive to Alexander is that she has a lot of money. 260 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: And there's a third The third line mentions how her 261 00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: sister also likes Alexander, and her sister would say it's okay, 262 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: but you know, Angelica says what she'd be lying when 263 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 1: she says that her sister would be happy if she 264 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 1: was with Alexander. And at the end of the song, 265 00:14:30,640 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 1: it seems pretty clear she thinks she made the right decision, 266 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: but it really really pains her. And that's a great idea. 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,440 Speaker 1: The opportunity cost of choosing to be with Alexander would 268 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: have been not marrying Rich right and hurting her sister marriage. 269 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: The ultimate economic institution. Ultimate economic instituall I mean in 270 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: family that's coming right. Offs to come in, and certainly 271 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: the trade off you're trading off your happiness in one way, 272 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,240 Speaker 1: um for money. You're trading off your sister's happiness for money. UM. 273 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: It's just a fantastic song that shows tradeoffs on a 274 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 1: on a high stakes decision that's not monetary, and a 275 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: lot of the tradeoffs in life are high stakes, right, 276 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: I mean, do you get a cancer, you know, if 277 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: you're diagnosed with a disease, do you go get cancer treatment? Right? 278 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 1: I mean these are there are high stakes tradeoff decisions 279 00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 1: people have on a daily basis. And this song, with 280 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: a lot of emotion and power, I think, really captures 281 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: trade offs and opportunity costs. You address this a little 282 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: bit a few minutes ago. Is the concept of a 283 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 1: trade off in economics and the development of economic policy 284 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,600 Speaker 1: something that's alien to your students when they first come 285 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,440 Speaker 1: to you. Certainly all students have experienced tradeoffs, but I 286 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: think a lot of them will miss the idea that 287 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:50,160 Speaker 1: there are tradeoffs when they're thinking about various policies. They 288 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: might not realize. And you'll see this both on like 289 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: the political spectrum. It's inevitable that politics comes up now 290 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: and you teach the introductory level economics, it's more what 291 00:15:59,120 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: we call positive and analysis. It really doesn't delve into 292 00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: the political um, the normative what should we do? But 293 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: it's kind of natural. I mean, you're starting to talk 294 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 1: about the ideas of you know, minimum wages or tax 295 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: increases or tax cuts, the tradeoffs come in, and a 296 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: lot of individuals will come in with their political ideas thinking, well, 297 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: whatever side i've heard, there must be no downside to 298 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 1: this particular policy, and we'll never have to cut a 299 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 1: deal to get it. I ever have to cut a 300 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: deal to get a cuff, of course. Yeah, and so 301 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: there's well, I think they've all experienced that, the idea 302 00:16:30,600 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: that it happens in politics. I do agree to summits 303 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 1: foreign and so I think part of the job is 304 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: that I have when teaching economics is to help make 305 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:42,080 Speaker 1: the student understand. Look, these are everywhere. You've experienced them 306 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,080 Speaker 1: your whole life, Right, You've had to figure out what 307 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: you wanted to do for the afternoon. Do you want 308 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,960 Speaker 1: to go work perhaps and earn a few dollars, or 309 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 1: do you want to go out and have fun and 310 00:16:49,160 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: you'll spend money and have less money the next day? 311 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,360 Speaker 1: Or you know what particular class do you want to take? 312 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: There's trade offs for that or I mean all of 313 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: the decisions in life, there's particular trade offs. They've they've 314 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 1: experienced them. The ideas then okay, let's carry that over. 315 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 1: Those those don't just magically go away in the world 316 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: of politics and the world of economic decision making. Does 317 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: it trouble you that they come to you without this 318 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: saints that they're compromises to be made to get your policy, 319 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 1: whatever it is, enacted, and that they have to do 320 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:23,719 Speaker 1: try it off. Does that say something, say something you 321 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: know troubling about society today. I don't know that I'd 322 00:17:29,040 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 1: go quite that far. I do. I mean, would I 323 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: love if everybody had that? Yeah? I would. I would 324 00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: like if they had that they're taking you know, I 325 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,719 Speaker 1: look back at myself and would I at eighteen have 326 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:42,320 Speaker 1: have of course, yeah, yeah, But I really don't think 327 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,520 Speaker 1: I would have. It's part of the learning process. So 328 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: I don't find it troubling. And what I tell the 329 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 1: students when they struggle with any particular topic, if if 330 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: they understood everything in the book already, there's no need 331 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: for the class, right. Part of my job is to 332 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,960 Speaker 1: help to help them understand. And so I don't know 333 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:01,440 Speaker 1: that I find it as as troubling as some others 334 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,400 Speaker 1: might find it. My hope is as far as having 335 00:18:04,480 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: maximum impact. If we have individuals who come in and 336 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: don't understand trade offs, and I'm able to help some 337 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,360 Speaker 1: people get oh yeah, there are trade offs. There's trade 338 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:13,960 Speaker 1: offs everywhere, and they come out of the class thinking 339 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: that I'll think I did a pretty good job. Matt. 340 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: Can you tell us anymore about your Broadway Economics website 341 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: and which other songs or shows outside of Hamilton's you 342 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: liked for a teaching economics. Oh? Absolutely, So it's on 343 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 1: Broadway Economics dot com. I think it's about forty five 344 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,440 Speaker 1: or so songs from different shows and you could see 345 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: the songs that's got the links to the lyrics, and 346 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,800 Speaker 1: it also has discussion questions if educators want to use 347 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:41,359 Speaker 1: these in their classes. The Broadway songs are fantastic for 348 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: teaching economic concept because Broadway musicals tell stories, and a 349 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: lot of the a lot of the stories are about 350 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:49,000 Speaker 1: economic issues. So, for example, one of the shows I'm 351 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:51,679 Speaker 1: seeing this afternoon is Fiddler on the Roof If I 352 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 1: were a rich man, I think is a fantastic song 353 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: as far as teaching economic concepts. The initial you know, 354 00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: you hear the title and you think, oh, yeah, that 355 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: has to deal with economy. Mix of course he's talking 356 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: about what happens if he's rich, But there's actually this 357 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite songs to use because if 358 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: you peel it back a layer, there's much more to it. Uh, 359 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,880 Speaker 1: Teva is singing um about I think it's Teva. It's 360 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,159 Speaker 1: the character's name, is singing about being rich from his 361 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:20,719 Speaker 1: perspective in I believe it's nineteen o five Russia, and 362 00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 1: to Teva, being rich would mean having lots of farm animals, 363 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: having two sets of stairs, and having a wife with 364 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 1: a proper double chin. As he's saying, you know, a 365 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 1: well fed wife, that's being rich. You know, that's that's 366 00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: a rich person in Teva's world. So, I mean, I'm 367 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: going to Fiddler today and I'm thinking to myself, I mean, 368 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: we are beyond anything Teva could have imagined in terms 369 00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: of rich And I think there's a powerful message about 370 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: economic growth there in the economic growth that's occurred in 371 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,960 Speaker 1: the past hundred years or hundred and fifty years. In 372 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: many countries we all lived like Teva to three four 373 00:19:59,080 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 1: years ago, not all, but of the world's population, there's 374 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:06,760 Speaker 1: still many parts of the world today that are incredibly poor. 375 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: What is brought parts of the world to live so 376 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,200 Speaker 1: to be so incredibly wealthy, And that there's a story 377 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,360 Speaker 1: there that helps illustrate, helps kind of prime students for 378 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,240 Speaker 1: a lesson on economic growth. So that's one of my 379 00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:22,600 Speaker 1: favorite songs. And some of the same concepts are in 380 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:25,520 Speaker 1: Hamilton's Who Came From you know, as an immigrant from 381 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: the Caribbean, and you get a lot of that kind 382 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:29,920 Speaker 1: of stuff. Oh yeah, yeah, and that show as well. Yeah. 383 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 1: The first line from the song, right, um, how does 384 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 1: the bastard, orphan son of a whore, um, you know, 385 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: become a hero and a scholar? Right? That's fantastic ten 386 00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 1: dollar founding father without a father. I really like using 387 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 1: that song in terms of kind of making students think, um, 388 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 1: I think through various issues. There's a number of songs 389 00:20:52,320 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: that would illustrate ideas of economic competition. Another show that's 390 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: on UM that's on Broadway right now is Something Rotten 391 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: and that show has a song called a Musical, which 392 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: is kind of a big show stopping number, but it's 393 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:08,280 Speaker 1: a nice idea. It's a nice introduction to kind of 394 00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: innovation and how firms might innovate because they are trying 395 00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 1: to figure out what the next best thing when theater 396 00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: should be and this is in UM around six hundred 397 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: in England, and they come up with the idea of well, 398 00:21:19,160 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 1: let's do a musical and all of the ideas and 399 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: why this would be an innovative, innovative process, and it's 400 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,840 Speaker 1: a it's a great song in terms of illustrating the 401 00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: idea that the way that people become better off, A 402 00:21:29,760 --> 00:21:31,919 Speaker 1: big chunk of it is when entrepreneurs come up with 403 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: these ideas for a product we didn't know would make 404 00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:37,880 Speaker 1: our lives better off, but they make our lives better off. 405 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: And so that's a very it's a fun song. You know. 406 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: Once again, part of what makes this work so well 407 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: is the songs are fun, and the students enjoy them 408 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:48,320 Speaker 1: and they want to listen to them over and over. 409 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 1: And while they do that, hopefully they the songs, you know, 410 00:21:51,400 --> 00:21:55,120 Speaker 1: the economic concepts resonate with them. Well, maybe I'll look 411 00:21:55,160 --> 00:21:59,720 Speaker 1: into spinning off a separate Benchmark podcast on Broadway musicals 412 00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: and and economics because it's Matt. You make it sound 413 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: like a really fascinating subject and and I really appreciate 414 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: you coming in to talk with us about it today. Now, 415 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,680 Speaker 1: thanks for thanks for having me. This has been a blast. 416 00:22:11,400 --> 00:22:13,480 Speaker 1: So Dan, are you ready to go out and see 417 00:22:13,480 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: Hamilton's yet? If I could afford it? But you know, 418 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,200 Speaker 1: if I were a rich Man, but I think I 419 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:21,879 Speaker 1: might enroll in your class. How about that? Hey, the 420 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 1: more of the merrier, All right, well, thanks again, Matt. 421 00:22:25,119 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: Benchmark will be back next week and until then you 422 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: can find us on the Bloomberg terminal and Bloomberg dot com, 423 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 1: as well as on iTunes, hocket casts, and Stitcher. And 424 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,479 Speaker 1: while you're there, take a minute to rate and review 425 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,040 Speaker 1: the show so more listeners can find us and let 426 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: us know what you thought of the show. You can 427 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:43,760 Speaker 1: talk to and follow us on Twitter at Daniel Moss 428 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: DC and at Scott Landon and our guest is at 429 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: at Matthew Rosy and at Broadway eCOM. See you next week. 430 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,640 Speaker 1: Brought to you by Sage Summit Live, the virtual conference 431 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,040 Speaker 1: that provides all the highlights of Sage Summit from the 432 00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: convenience of your desk. Celebrity entrepreneurs, inciple workshops absolutely free. 433 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: Register at Sage Summit live stream dot com.