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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the Reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to stuff Mom never told you?

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Speaker 1: From house Stop works dot com. Hello, and welcome to

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Speaker 1: the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline. Today Caroline and

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Speaker 1: I are going to talk about something that many listeners

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Speaker 1: have requested for a while. Just pops up women in science,

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Speaker 1: science science, How they blinded us? Get it? I wish

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Speaker 1: we were wearing lab coats for this episode out of

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Speaker 1: the listeners, No, we're not true. Imagine that, listens, we

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Speaker 1: are in lab coats with beakers on the table because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about science today. Because women in science,

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Speaker 1: although they are getting more attention these days, still there

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Speaker 1: is a gap, right And actually the Independent Women's Forum,

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Speaker 1: a research and education institution, blames it on innate differences

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Speaker 1: and aptitudes, temperament and interests between men and women. Basically,

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Speaker 1: it kind of sounds like the stereotype of like, well,

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Speaker 1: women just starting good at science and um. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: they claim that the gender gap in STEM, which is science, technology, engineering,

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Speaker 1: and math madics mathematics STEM courses, UM I have to

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Speaker 1: do with these brain differences. And one of the very first.

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Speaker 1: I think it might be. The very first episode of

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Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You was on whether or not

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Speaker 1: men and women have different brains. So we can go

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Speaker 1: back and listen to that if you like after this podcast. Um,

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Speaker 1: but at the same time, women are are good at

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Speaker 1: science and math. Yeah. Well, uh, you know, in all

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Speaker 1: this reading we did for this podcast, a lot of

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Speaker 1: the sources say that the numbers of men and women

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Speaker 1: interested in science and pursuing science in high school and

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Speaker 1: college about the same. It's there's not a huge difference.

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Speaker 1: It's it's not until after graduation, when maybe it's time

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Speaker 1: to pursue a career, take your career a little further,

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Speaker 1: that the numbers start to skew a little. Right. Um,

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Speaker 1: this is coming from the National Science Foundation in two

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Speaker 1: thousand six, fifty percent of students who enroll and graduate

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Speaker 1: courses in science or engineering are women. So obviously, while

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Speaker 1: our brains might work a little bit differently, obviously women

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Speaker 1: do just fine in STEM courses. But like you said, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: once they get into the real world, those numbers start

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Speaker 1: to drop. Because between two thousand and two thousand five,

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Speaker 1: only of women were employed out of school and employed

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Speaker 1: in the computer field. A leading employer of science and

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Speaker 1: engineering grads. Yeah, and numbers, numbers have jumped, they've they've

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Speaker 1: gotten better for sure. Um one percent I found was

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Speaker 1: that the percent of doctoral degrees awarded to women in

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Speaker 1: engineering uh IN was one percent, and in two thousand

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Speaker 1: one that jumped to eight So I feel like more

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Speaker 1: women are, you know, maybe sticking with it in school

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Speaker 1: at least. And if women stick with it, it will

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Speaker 1: pay off. Literally. This is a newer from a new

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Speaker 1: report came out in August from the U S. Commerce

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Speaker 1: Department that's been it's as part of a series of

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Speaker 1: reports actually that they've been doing on women and STEM

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Speaker 1: exploring why this gender gap exists. Because they want more.

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Speaker 1: The government wants more women to pursue STEM courses not

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Speaker 1: only in college but also beyond, like somehow closing off

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Speaker 1: that that exit ramp that seems to be happening. And

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Speaker 1: science pays because women in STEM jobs right now earned

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Speaker 1: thirty more than women in non STEM jobs. I wish

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Speaker 1: physics had made sense, I know, why aren't we a

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Speaker 1: And in addition, the gender pay gap in STEM industries

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Speaker 1: narrower than than in non stem sounds good to me. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so the money's there, although the Gender Wage EPI still exists.

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Speaker 1: But the point of this episode today is talk about

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Speaker 1: women in science because they exist, and lack of role

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Speaker 1: models is one reason that some people offer for the

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Speaker 1: STEM gender gap. But we're gonna we're gonna offer out

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Speaker 1: some offer up some role models today and not once

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Speaker 1: that you may have heard of before. Right. Well, although

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Speaker 1: let's start with what you heard of. There are some

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Speaker 1: good ones out there that the people have heard of.

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Speaker 1: There's Murray Currey, yes, who she had a pretty steady

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Speaker 1: rise up the science latter she has pretty much always

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Speaker 1: been amazing. Yeah, and she won the Nobel Prize in

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Speaker 1: physics in nineteen o three, and then for a second

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Speaker 1: time she want a Nobel prizing chemistry in nineteen eleven. There, yeah, Grandma. Um,

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Speaker 1: I do have a book recommendation and two. It's one

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Speaker 1: that I have not read yet, but I've heard an

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Speaker 1: interview with the author and it sounds fascinating. It's called

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Speaker 1: Radioactive Marie and Pierre Curie, A Tale of Love and

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Speaker 1: Fallout by Lauren Redness. Good title, I know, maybe that'll

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Speaker 1: be my fall reading. Um. I wanted to mention Ada

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Speaker 1: Byron known as Lady Lovelace, and also daughter of poet

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Speaker 1: Lord Byron. She in eighteen forty three developed what is

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Speaker 1: regarded as the first ever computer program. Yes, well there

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Speaker 1: is there's another scientist more recent who I just want

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Speaker 1: to hug. I've always loved this woman, Jane Goodall. Yes,

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Speaker 1: we've all, we've all heard about her in the Chimpanzee

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Speaker 1: She went to Tanzania as a twenty three year old

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Speaker 1: to observe how champion chimpanzees interacted. Basically, she took along

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Speaker 1: a notebook and binoculars and she managed to make all

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Speaker 1: these incredible discoveries. And then, of course we've got to

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Speaker 1: mention Sally Ride, who we talked about in our episode

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Speaker 1: on astronaut first woman in Space. There's American woman, American woman,

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Speaker 1: a woman, that's right, I'm sorry, no harm um And

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Speaker 1: she is a physics professor at the University of California,

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Speaker 1: San Diego and then became director of California's Space Institute. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's written children's books about science, get the kids interested,

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Speaker 1: and her um company, Sally Ride Science, seeks to motivate

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Speaker 1: girls to pursue careers in stimfield. Yeah, so she would

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Speaker 1: enjoy this episode. She would Sally Ride would be on

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Speaker 1: board with what we're talking about. Sally, Hey, you're out there. Um.

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Speaker 1: But like I said, the point of today's podcast is

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Speaker 1: to offer all some names that listeners might not have

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Speaker 1: heard of before, right, some women who changed our world, Yes,

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Speaker 1: affected science for the better, but you know, maybe you

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Speaker 1: don't know their names. There's Rosalind Elsie Franklin. She's a

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Speaker 1: molecular biologist. She started out at an all girls school

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Speaker 1: in London, one of the few to actually offer physics

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Speaker 1: and chemistry courses. Yeah. And the reason why you might

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Speaker 1: not have heard of Rosalind Franklin's name is because two

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Speaker 1: guys by the name of James D. Watson and Francis

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Speaker 1: Crick stole her thunder absolutely beat her to the punch.

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Speaker 1: She did all this work on X ray diffraction techniques.

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Speaker 1: So she worked in Paris for a while and after

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Speaker 1: returning to England in nineteen fifty one, she worked at

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Speaker 1: a lab where she encountered Maurice Wilkins. Fortunately, Morris Wilkins

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Speaker 1: thought she was a an assistant in the lab and

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Speaker 1: she was a woman. Yeah, naturally, you know she's carrying

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Speaker 1: Martiniz around or something. I don't know. I don't know

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Speaker 1: why Anyway, he found her X ray images and showed

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Speaker 1: them to James Watson and Francis Crick. Yes, because Wilkins,

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Speaker 1: Crick and Watson, we're all working on unraveling the structure

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Speaker 1: of DNA, and Rosalind Franklin had taken these amazing X

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Speaker 1: ray photographs of d N A quote, the most beautiful

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Speaker 1: X ray photographs of any substance ever taken, one scientist quoted.

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Speaker 1: And so they showed, showed the guy sees incredible images

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Speaker 1: of DNA, and then they won the Nobel Prize in

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two, thanks guys, and she um well. One

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Speaker 1: of the reasons too, they think that that her work

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Speaker 1: has not been more widely recognized as such a major

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Speaker 1: contribution to understanding the structure of DNA because soon after

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Speaker 1: all of that went down, she got really sick. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she got a vary in cancer and died at thirty seven, right,

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Speaker 1: very young, very young. Uh So Rosalind Franklin slewly, but

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Speaker 1: surely I think there's been more more spotlight on her

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Speaker 1: on her work. But definitely a female scientist who deserves

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Speaker 1: a lot of credit. Uh. And then we have Dorothy

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Speaker 1: Crowfoot Hodgkin, the founder of protein crystallography. Yeah, Basically, crystallography

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Speaker 1: is X rays that can determine the arrangement of atoms.

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Speaker 1: And she and her mentor applied this X ray diffraction

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Speaker 1: to crystals of biological substances. And I want to say

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Speaker 1: that her mentor J. D. Bernal is the person who said, uh,

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Speaker 1: who referred to Rosalind Franklin's X ray photography is the

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Speaker 1: most most beautiful of DNA. Get to see people supporting

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Speaker 1: women in science exactly, Yeah, because a lot of these

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Speaker 1: women as they're as they're growing up in pursuing these

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Speaker 1: scientific fields are either discouraged by their parents, especially their fathers,

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Speaker 1: are discouraged by male colleagues, or aren't paid for their work. Right,

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Speaker 1: Like one woman will talk about in a little bit

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Speaker 1: was never paid for most of her work and yet

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Speaker 1: became a Nobel Nobel Prize winner. But back to Dorothy

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Speaker 1: Crowfoot hodgkin Um. Her contributions included solutions to structures of

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Speaker 1: things by being able to see what they look like

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Speaker 1: using the chrystallography, so seeing the structure of things like cholesterol, penicillin,

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Speaker 1: which earned her an election as a Fellow of the

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Speaker 1: Royal Society in nineteen forty seven, and she won her

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Speaker 1: Nobel Prize in chemistry in ninety seven for seeing the

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Speaker 1: structure of or I guess unraveling the structure of vitamin

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Speaker 1: B twelve right. And then there was insulin. That was

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Speaker 1: her major project. Um she worked on it for thirty

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Speaker 1: four years, actually found the insulent structure in nineteen fifty

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Speaker 1: nine and went back and reevaluated in with the help

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Speaker 1: of computers. And it makes sense that Dorothy Crowfoot Hodgkin

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Speaker 1: I really like her whole name. That's saying that that

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Speaker 1: Dorothy was such a genius because she came from from

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Speaker 1: quite a family. Her dad was an archaeologist in Egypt,

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Speaker 1: and her mom was an expert on coptic tiles, and

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Speaker 1: she married an expert in African study. I would absolutely

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Speaker 1: go to their dinner party. I wouldn't be able to

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Speaker 1: keep up with anything they said, but I would just

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Speaker 1: sit there with my mouth wide openly sitting nod with

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Speaker 1: that with a smile on your face. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: at the age of eighty, she finally got a visa

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Speaker 1: and traveled to the US giving talks to standing room

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Speaker 1: only crowds about insulin crystallography in its future. So these

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Speaker 1: women still working in in old age. But next up

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Speaker 1: is perhaps one of those underappreciated or at least under

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Speaker 1: pay scientists that we talked about today, Maria Geppert Mayor. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she came. She also came from a very educated family.

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Speaker 1: And and you know, as opposed to some of the

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Speaker 1: other people we've talked about, you know, their fathers discouraged them,

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Speaker 1: didn't think a woman should go out and get an education,

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Speaker 1: especially in science. It was actually sort of understood that

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Speaker 1: she would go to university. Um. She actually her social

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Speaker 1: circle included physicist Neil's Bore and Max Born. And she

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Speaker 1: started out actually as a mathematician in school, but turned

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Speaker 1: her focus to physics. So somehow, to me hearing that,

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Speaker 1: it seems like somehow her brain got even smarter. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, because whoa I can do I can do math.

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Speaker 1: I was fine with math in school, but physics and

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Speaker 1: I did not get along at all. Maria Geppert Mayor,

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Speaker 1: you on a genius um. But listen to this story.

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Speaker 1: So she comes to the US with her husband, also

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Speaker 1: a physicist, and continues her research even though she's not

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Speaker 1: being paid for it, right, and while quote unquote you know, unemployed,

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Speaker 1: she went on to produce tin papers and a textbook

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Speaker 1: and a physics textbook. Yeah. I mean, you know, I

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Speaker 1: guess if I was unemployed, I could do a lot

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Speaker 1: of cool things, do not anything to do with physics.

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Speaker 1: But still, but she was working with her husband in

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Speaker 1: collaborating with another physics professor, became a chemical physics and

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Speaker 1: then figured out, oh, I don't know the color of

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Speaker 1: organic molecules. Sure, why not? She went on. They moved

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Speaker 1: to Chicago, and I think she was more welcome there.

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Speaker 1: She actually, I think got a paycheck at some point

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Speaker 1: in Chicago. She worked at she was a professor in

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Speaker 1: the physics department and the Institute for Nuclear Studies, and

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Speaker 1: also worked at the Argon National Laboratory. Yeah, but she

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Speaker 1: did not secure full time, paid work in her field

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Speaker 1: until she was fifty three years Yeah. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: at that time, I'm like wine and down. I'm ready

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Speaker 1: to go live on a yacht. I'm where, you know,

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Speaker 1: retire with my pat you'll definitely uh um. But then

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Speaker 1: she won the Nobel Prize in nineteen sixty three, and

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Speaker 1: the headline in the San Diego paper read s, d

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Speaker 1: San Diego mother wins the Nobel Prize. I mean, really,

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Speaker 1: even still we can't just give her a little bit

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Speaker 1: of credit for actually being a scientist and around right. Um,

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Speaker 1: but she developed a nuclear shell model of atomic nuclei,

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Speaker 1: so that essentially figured us out what what atomic nuclei

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Speaker 1: the outside of them looks like. It's there's nothing to

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Speaker 1: do with magic numbers, which I could not fully explain

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Speaker 1: to you listeners if you have any clust to what

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Speaker 1: it is that those represent the numbers of protons and

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Speaker 1: arranged in shells in the atoms nuclear Thanks Kristen. That's

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Speaker 1: not from my notes, No, not at all. How you

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Speaker 1: have a broad knowledge of things. Um, moving on. I

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Speaker 1: I like to save the best for last, not not

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Speaker 1: that all these women. I've been so excited about this woman. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I want you after the podcast, after you listen to this,

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Speaker 1: or while you're listening, you know, if you're on your

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Speaker 1: computer anyway, google Rita Levi montal Cini. She's still a lot.

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Speaker 1: She is a brain scientist who also happens to be

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Speaker 1: the oldest living Nobel laureate. The woman. Okay, have you

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Speaker 1: you know Ghostbusters when they go to the basement of

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Speaker 1: the library and there's that, um, there's that ghost, that

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Speaker 1: librarian ghost that's what she dresses like she looks so

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Speaker 1: she's a very spiffy. Well, she's very spell well, let

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Speaker 1: listeners google image here, because she really does look incredible.

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Speaker 1: She has an amazing quaff of shockingly w Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: this this woman, she's incredible. She her work with Stanley

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Speaker 1: Cohen led to a breakthrough in neurological science for the

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Speaker 1: discovery of nerve growth factor, a discovery that she says

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Speaker 1: is the highlight of her life. A nerve growth growth

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Speaker 1: factor is a protein that basically stimulates neural development um

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Speaker 1: and promotes nerve cell growth. Right. Um. She won the

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Speaker 1: Nobel Prize in Physiology and Medicine in nineteen eighty six

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Speaker 1: at the age of seventy seven. She's no slouchy and

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Speaker 1: she was not living on a yacht. How old does

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Speaker 1: she know? D and two and two? She's still going. Yes,

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Speaker 1: she founded the European Brain Research Institute and still goes

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Speaker 1: to work every day. Yeah, she still goes. She encourages

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Speaker 1: our students and while she admitted that yes, she does

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Speaker 1: encourage a lot of the female science students, she doesn't

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Speaker 1: really see a difference between men and women, especially in

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Speaker 1: their brains. Obviously, her her expertise is in neurology, and

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Speaker 1: she was quoted in the Times of London saying that

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Speaker 1: she really sees absolutely no difference between male and female

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Speaker 1: brains and attributes a lot of our behavior to environment

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Speaker 1: and again it's it's nature and nurtures. Well. In the Times,

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Speaker 1: she also is quoted as saying that we're all doomed

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Speaker 1: because in all of her years of brain research. You know,

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Speaker 1: she talks about the two hemispheres of the brain. One

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Speaker 1: quote unquote ancient rules our emotions and instincts. The other

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Speaker 1: one is more modern, where we use rational thoughts to

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Speaker 1: figure out our problems. And she says that the world's

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Speaker 1: problems today, terrorism, fundamentalism, et cetera, can be blamed on

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Speaker 1: people using their ancient, emotional instinctual brain too often. So

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Speaker 1: you've become too emotionally driven and are driving ourselves crazy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: listen to this quote. She says, it was the part

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Speaker 1: of our brains which got us down from trees. But

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Speaker 1: it is the cause of all the disasters and the

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Speaker 1: cause of great danger to our planet today. It is

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Speaker 1: taking the human race towards extinction. The end is already

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Speaker 1: at hand. Oh yeah, that sounds a little scary. I

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Speaker 1: know it's freaking me out. But she I also like

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Speaker 1: her key to longevity, which is really never sleeping and

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Speaker 1: only eating one meal a day. She eats, she eats lunch,

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Speaker 1: and she says maybe an orange or a bowl of

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Speaker 1: soup in the evening, but that's it, and she works

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Speaker 1: even food don't interest her. I I would not, I

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Speaker 1: would be so cranky. I know, I don't know how

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Speaker 1: my I need food to my brain to work better.

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Speaker 1: I know, but I mean, I'm saying this about a

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Speaker 1: brain expert. So maybe she knows something. She's a hundred

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Speaker 1: and two. She figured something out. I guess I'm just

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Speaker 1: gonna have to sacrifice longevity for a cheeseburger. Seems that

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Speaker 1: she won a Nobel prize. She's probably figured out a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. The couple and she was also never

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Speaker 1: married ye that time, exactly the same father who did

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Speaker 1: not want her to pursue science education. She saw us

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Speaker 1: dominating the family, and she said she didn't want to

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Speaker 1: play second fiddle to a man, so she never married. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: She said that really the only difference between men and

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Speaker 1: women is that are while our brains are exactly the same,

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Speaker 1: men have just been able to physically overpower women. Mm hmm,

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Speaker 1: another podcast for another time. Indeed, so we've talked about

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Speaker 1: these four and obviously there are so many more, and

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Speaker 1: I would invite listeners to send in um any need

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Speaker 1: female scientists they'd like. It's to highlight in later episodes

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Speaker 1: in the listener males segments. But before we sign off,

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Speaker 1: the question is how do we how do we support

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Speaker 1: women in science better? Right? You talked about role models

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Speaker 1: earlier and uh in a column that appeared in The

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Speaker 1: Guardian in July, doctors Natalie Pedarelli and I hope I

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Speaker 1: don't butcher this woman's name, Syrian Syrian Sumner say that

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Speaker 1: the problem isn't necessarily attracting girls and women to scientific fields,

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Speaker 1: it's just keeping them there, which you know, we touched

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Speaker 1: on earlier. They attribute this to sort of a disconnect

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Speaker 1: between um men and women family life. Women are sort

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Speaker 1: of more expected, they argue to make compromises as far

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Speaker 1: as career and family's concern. Yes, at off ramp, and

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Speaker 1: especially if they're in academia. I can understand that it

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Speaker 1: probably would be a challenge to try to, you know,

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Speaker 1: chase down tenure, publishing papers, constantly doing research in addition

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Speaker 1: to teaching. Obviously, academia is one small part of what

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Speaker 1: you can do in STEM fields, but that might be

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Speaker 1: another part. Even just educating women about all the opportunities

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Speaker 1: available to them that listen up pay that more than

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Speaker 1: non stem fields. I don't think I would be successful. Hey,

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Speaker 1: you know what, Caroline stopped buying into the stereotype threat. Okay,

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Speaker 1: it's seven years of not being good at science, but

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Speaker 1: you know that's okay. I guess we can learn. And

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Speaker 1: there are organizations out there, like the Association for Women

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Speaker 1: in Science, which was founded in ninete to fight for

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Speaker 1: equity in in stem and close that gender gap. But

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Speaker 1: over and over again, the research has shown that the

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Speaker 1: change probably needs to happen in the classrooms early on. Right, UM,

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Speaker 1: we've talked about gender roles, gender stereotypes, and priming before UM.

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Speaker 1: The OR, an association of university women, released a report

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Speaker 1: in that said women are shaped by their learning environments.

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Speaker 1: They found that when teachers before a test said that

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Speaker 1: boys and girls perform equally on math tests, the girls

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Speaker 1: did better. They they did perform more equally. So encourage

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Speaker 1: girls to do better. Yeah, breakdown, break down the stereotypes,

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Speaker 1: because if half of those stem degrees are going to women.

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Speaker 1: Obviously we can do just fine science of that anyway.

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Speaker 1: Female scientists out there, I know there are a lot

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Speaker 1: of you listening because a lot of you have emailed

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Speaker 1: in requesting this topic. Let us know what what do

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Speaker 1: you think about being a woman in science? Other female

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Speaker 1: scientists that we should toss out there? And did anyone

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Speaker 1: try to discourage you from pursuing scientific career? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know a lot of these women we talked about

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Speaker 1: whose families discouraged them were from way back when. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, did your family look at you cross side

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Speaker 1: when you said you didn't want to go after an

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Speaker 1: English degree you wanted to be a scientist? Scientist? Let

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Speaker 1: us know. Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff

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Speaker 1: works dot com and we got a couple of emails

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Speaker 1: here in response to our two podcasts exploring gender and height,

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Speaker 1: One from a men, one from a woman. Who would

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Speaker 1: you like to hear from first? Caroline? Ladies first? That's

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Speaker 1: ladies first. Sure this comes from Diana and she says,

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Speaker 1: I'm five eleven, so I get remarks about my height

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Speaker 1: a lot. I'm a teller at a bank, but we're

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Speaker 1: provided with high stools to sit on while we work.

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Speaker 1: They boost up the shorter tellers, but they make me shorter.

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Speaker 1: So I always stand when people are at my window.

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Speaker 1: People say you must be on the step stool back there.

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Speaker 1: I just smile and say, no, I'm really this tall.

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Speaker 1: My husband is six three, so I'm looking forward to

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Speaker 1: having tall children. And my dating experience, I've found that

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Speaker 1: some men are intimidated by tall women. I am white,

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Speaker 1: but white men have never approached me. I had a

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Speaker 1: white male coworker tell me once you're pretty, you're just

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Speaker 1: too tall. However, he doesn't seem to bother men of

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Speaker 1: other races. It's an interesting observation. It is interesting. Um

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Speaker 1: Adam writes to us about height as well. He says

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Speaker 1: that he has over six feet and I was wondering

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Speaker 1: why you didn't address the giant stereotype with tall men.

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Speaker 1: Although short men are viewed as more aggressive, tall men

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Speaker 1: have negative views associated with them, as evidenced in David

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Speaker 1: and Goliath, Jack and the Beanstalk, and of Mice and Men.

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Speaker 1: Men of stature have been throughout history and literature viewed

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Speaker 1: as intimidating, awkward, and a tad, dumb and sometimes arrogant,

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Speaker 1: like a bully. I know this is better than being

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Speaker 1: viewed like Joe Pesci characters for being short. I still

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Speaker 1: find I have to contend with stereotypes and on occasion

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Speaker 1: risk being turned down for something in favor of someone

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Speaker 1: viewed as more of an underdog joint stereotype. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean there's on either side of the spectrum. If you're

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Speaker 1: extremely taller extremely short, I can imagine that there are

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Speaker 1: stereotypes a plenty. Sure, So, if you have any thoughts

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Speaker 1: to send our way again, our email addresses mom Stuff

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00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: at how stuff works Com. You can also head over

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Speaker 1: to Facebook find us there, and also follow us on

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Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. And lastly, during the week

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Speaker 1: you can read the blog It's stuff Mom Never told

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Speaker 1: You from how Stuff works dot com. Be sure to

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Speaker 1: check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future.

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Speaker 1: Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most

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Speaker 1: promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow. The How Stuff Works

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