WEBVTT - They're Trying to Put Women Into Men's Prisons 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:04.960 All Zone Media. 0:00:05.400 --> 0:00:08.559 Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:11.119 about things falling apart and how to put them back together. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.480 I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this is an 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.240 episode about both of those things. Not Margaret and Killjoy, 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.640 but about things falling apart and putting them back together. 0:00:22.520 --> 0:00:25.239 If you live in the US, you might have noticed 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:28.880 that things are falling apart in the onslaught of new 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.800 federal changes over the past few weeks. There is one 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:35.320 that is both astoundingly important and also likely to disappear 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:41.840 below people's radars because it affects prisoners. Trans prisoners. Prison 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.440 is the place that society puts people to forget that 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:48.200 they exist. It shouldn't be that way, while prisons ought 0:00:48.280 --> 0:00:50.919 not to be how we solve problems as a society 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.840 at all, but it is the way that things currently are. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:58.240 Things that affect prisoners are routinely ignored, even though we 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.440 live in a society built on the idea of incarceration. 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.920 It's been in the news that US trans people somehow 0:01:06.000 --> 0:01:09.920 just sort of don't exist anymore, that everyone is either 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:15.000 male or female, dictated at birth and immutable. Obviously, this 0:01:15.080 --> 0:01:18.560 flies in the face of biological and social reality, and 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.680 it's going to impact us trans people quite a bit. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.960 One group of people that it's going to impact very immediately, 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:33.680 very dramatically, and very dangerously is trans prisoners. According to 0:01:33.760 --> 0:01:37.680 Bureau of Prison Statistics, there are currently one thousand, five 0:01:37.760 --> 0:01:41.000 hundred and twenty nine trans women and seven hundred and 0:01:41.040 --> 0:01:45.319 forty four trans men held in federal prisons, and not 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:49.320 all of them are being held in gender appropriate prisons already. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.760 As we're going to talk about with our guests in 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:54.400 a bit, prisoners have to go through an incredible amount 0:01:54.400 --> 0:01:57.360 of dehumanization in order to have a chance of being 0:01:57.400 --> 0:02:01.080 placed in the right facility. But now that isn't an option, 0:02:01.640 --> 0:02:05.040 and women are being moved into men's prisons. Does the 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.160 idea of being a woman in a men's prison scare you? 0:02:10.400 --> 0:02:10.800 It should. 0:02:11.720 --> 0:02:17.320 It's terrifying. It's worse than what you might imagine. One 0:02:17.360 --> 0:02:20.440 trans woman prisoner who's using a pseudonym for her lawsuit 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.680 going by Maria Moe, has already filed a lawsuit in 0:02:24.720 --> 0:02:28.480 federal court to stop this new regulation. She is challenging 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:32.680 it on both procedural and constitutional grounds. The government didn't 0:02:32.680 --> 0:02:35.880 go about this in the legal manner, and to house 0:02:35.919 --> 0:02:39.400 trans women with men goes against the Eighth Amendment, which 0:02:39.440 --> 0:02:42.680 prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, as well as the Fifth 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.680 Amendments do process clause. I simply can't imagine putting a 0:02:47.720 --> 0:02:50.680 woman into men's prison as anything other than cruel and 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.960 unusual punishment. The state can pretend that trans women aren't women, 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.200 but the men in prison will not treat her like 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.880 how they treat assists men. On January twenty first, the 0:03:01.919 --> 0:03:04.080 woman suing the prison system was told that she was 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:06.840 going to be moved to men's prison after all of 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.040 her records were suddenly changed to mark her male. Federal 0:03:11.120 --> 0:03:14.040 data says that trans prisoners are sexually assaulted at ten 0:03:14.080 --> 0:03:17.440 times the rate of other prisoners, and that's the state's 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:21.880 own reporting on the issue. But you know who doesn't 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.920 know how to effortlessly transition to ads after saying something 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:28.080 as serious as that, it's me, I don't know how 0:03:28.080 --> 0:03:31.160 to effortlessly transitions ads. After giving you a statistic like that, 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.840 When we come back, we're going to talk about how 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.400 serious the situation is, but also provide just an absolute 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:41.440 incredible number of things that you can do at various 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:44.920 levels of risk to support the people whose lives are about. 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:55.960 To be ruined by this policy change. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:00.680 Okay, and we're back. So to talk about how trans 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.880 people fair in prison, I have brought on my friend 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:07.000 with the most experience in prison, the former political prisoner 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.800 Eric King. Eric served just shy of ten years in 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.600 prison for throwing a molotov into an empty federal building 0:04:13.680 --> 0:04:16.800 one night in response to the Ferguson uprising of twenty fourteen. 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:20.039 Those were a protests that were anti police protests that 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:22.320 started in the wake of the police killing of eighteen 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:26.159 year old black man Michael Brown. Eric is also the 0:04:26.200 --> 0:04:28.840 co editor of a book called Rattling the Cages, Oral 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:32.440 Histories of North American Political Prisoners, which has a forward 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.599 by none other than Angela Davis and is worth checking out. 0:04:36.839 --> 0:04:39.480 Eric was released from the eighty X Supermax in December 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:42.200 twenty twenty three. He walked out of prison wearing a 0:04:42.240 --> 0:04:45.320 support trans kid shirt and has been vocal about his 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:49.159 support for us as soon as he walked out the door. So, Eric, 0:04:49.560 --> 0:04:51.520 thanks for coming on. It could happen here. 0:04:51.560 --> 0:04:53.960 How are you. I'm doing really well, glad to be back. 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:54.680 Thank you so much. 0:04:54.960 --> 0:05:00.480 Yeah, so you reached out to me about this. What 0:05:00.520 --> 0:05:02.080 would you call it, like a policy change? 0:05:02.160 --> 0:05:03.520 Yeah, executive order? 0:05:03.560 --> 0:05:06.960 I guess, yeah, you know, And basically we talked about 0:05:06.960 --> 0:05:10.080 like how do we try and make sure that people 0:05:10.120 --> 0:05:14.919 know about what's happening. And I wanted to ask you, So, 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:17.360 you're a SIS man and you didn't have an easy 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:19.760 time in prison, right as far as I as far 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:21.840 as I understand now, I think no one gets to 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:25.200 have an easy time in prison is one of the things, 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:26.680 especially in a supermax, So. 0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:27.720 Not that easier than others. 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:29.800 I guess, yeah, you were not among the people who 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:33.960 had it easier. And as I would follow your journey 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:37.200 through the federal prison system, it seems like you had 0:05:37.200 --> 0:05:40.640 to defend yourself against both other prisoners and also prison staff. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.599 Is that a fair way to put it mildly? 0:05:43.720 --> 0:05:45.760 Yeah, yes, that was what was going on. 0:05:46.240 --> 0:05:48.640 Can you tell me a bit about the experience of 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.240 trans people in prison, because when you look at this 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:54.239 executive order, it sort of implies like all trans women 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:57.600 are in women's prison and all trans men. Actually, I 0:05:57.640 --> 0:05:59.719 literally have no idea or transmit are held. I would 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:01.520 rather if I was a transmit, I'd probably rather be 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.160 in women's prison. I just Anyway, I don't know what 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.080 was the situation like before this executive order. 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:10.640 So I want to start with saying, like, the reason 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:13.279 I hit you up is because there's so much like 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.719 horror happening this first week of like Trump's new presidency, 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.480 and I didn't want this issue to get swept under 0:06:21.480 --> 0:06:24.120 the rug. Yeah, a lot of times, the bigger, more 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.520 mainstream issues will get the most attention. And I still 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:32.080 remember our trans family inside, and so that's what scared 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:34.320 me enough to be like, dude, I need to talk 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:35.040 to you about this. 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:37.800 Yeah. So when I was. 0:06:37.720 --> 0:06:42.479 Inside, there was not very many trans people, and they're like, 0:06:42.680 --> 0:06:45.560 correct prison, Like a trans woman should be in a 0:06:45.600 --> 0:06:47.920 women's prison, Yeah, a trans man should be in a 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:48.640 man's prison. 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.400 And that wasn't happening on the level that it should have. 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.640 And there was a rare case like Marius Mason who 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:59.880 had enough support, enough publicity where they were able to 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:05.040 Most people were stuck at their gender at birth. And 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.440 so over the last couple of years, people started getting 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:11.840 a lot more access to safe prisons. That's why I'll 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:15.440 call them my prisons where they feel safest. So I 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.720 trans women were starting to go to women's prisons, and 0:07:18.920 --> 0:07:19.840 it wasn't very many. 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:23.680 It's not like there's tens of thousands, but handfuls. 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:26.960 Because it is it's very hard in the federal system 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:30.680 to get recognized as a transgender person. You have to 0:07:30.720 --> 0:07:35.600 go through years of degrading and humiliating therapy with the 0:07:35.640 --> 0:07:40.080 prison psychologist. You have to get just horribly treated by 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.200 doctors who ignore you, gasight, you diminish, you try to 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.640 push Christianity on you, and then if you make it 0:07:47.640 --> 0:07:51.400 through their brutality, then you were one of the lucky ones. 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:53.640 You got to say, like, I am this person, this 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:54.280 is who I am. 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:56.960 And if you're even more lucky, you got to be 0:07:57.040 --> 0:07:59.520 transferred to a prison that would make you feel the safest, 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.680 the most whole is a human and that's the goal, Like, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.520 that's the safety goal. Basically, that's where we wanted things 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.560 to be pushed. That people would be recognized for who 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.040 they are, they would get treated for for who they were, 0:08:15.440 --> 0:08:18.400 and they would be sent to a prison that was 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:21.320 congruent with who they were. And that's what's all being 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:21.880 taken away. 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:26.640 Yeah, and when you talk about the safety, I don't 0:08:26.640 --> 0:08:29.480 want to like necessarily go on at great length about 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.920 how trans women suffer invents prisons, but it's probably worth 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:36.800 talking about, like because you've described it as there's like 0:08:37.240 --> 0:08:40.600 literal sexual slavery happening in the prisons. Is that a 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:41.400 fair way to put it? 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.120 Yeah, one hundred and ten percent yes, yes, And I 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.720 only speak for federal prisons. I know in some states 0:08:47.760 --> 0:08:50.600 it's different. Like in some states people are able to 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.920 use like their femininity as like a power play as 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:57.520 a tool to keep themselves safe. And so if that, 0:08:57.880 --> 0:09:00.520 if that's an option, then great. But what eye witness 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.480 in the federal prison was the exact opposite of that. 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.520 People are getting destroyed. And if you go into a 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:10.800 men's prison presenting as female in any way or soft anywhere, 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.920 or as any type of one or any type of 0:09:14.000 --> 0:09:19.280 nonsense straight male, you are an automatic target. And it's 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.200 not like hyperbole to say that if you walked onto 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.200 a penitentiary yard and you had makeup, if you had 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.600 your hair long, if you had breast, if you had 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:34.640 anything presenting as female, you will get butchered within an hour. 0:09:35.040 --> 0:09:39.920 You won't survive that, or you'll get by some group and. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:41.920 You will be a site like you will be property. 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:45.400 And at the lower custody levels it's a lot safer 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:47.600 if you're at a low security like FCI Englewood. 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:49.120 You're not in danger there. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.360 You're a danger of humiliation and being degraded by staff, 0:09:52.800 --> 0:09:55.360 but you're not going to get stabbed there. But God 0:09:55.440 --> 0:09:59.520 forbid you go to Victorville Medium, Florence Medium, or any 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:02.720 PENITENTI tree, like, that's a death sentence for real. 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:06.439 Yeah, do you want to talk about the worst things 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:08.000 I've ever happened to you? Do you want to talk 0:10:08.080 --> 0:10:12.080 about you and I? We did another episode on my 0:10:12.120 --> 0:10:14.960 other podcast, Live like the World is Dying and talking 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.880 about how to survive prison, and in it you talked 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:22.080 a little bit about what was necessary to kind of 0:10:22.240 --> 0:10:25.760 stand up for trans prisoners. Do you want to talk 0:10:25.760 --> 0:10:26.600 about that a little bit? 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:30.880 Yeah, So, like everyone needs to have like consequence awareness 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:33.520 and they need to work on the lines that make 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:36.960 them feel most comfortable. Of course, but for me, I 0:10:37.160 --> 0:10:40.920 was not comfortable at all watching trans or gay prisoners 0:10:41.280 --> 0:10:44.600 get brutalized. And so there were times where we have 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:47.679 to raise money to buy a prisoner. 0:10:47.280 --> 0:10:48.440 Out of sex slavery. 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:51.760 Yeah, we just have to buy them and then basically 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.320 free them or pay off whatever debt they owed. 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:56.680 So that they no longer have to be in that situation. 0:10:57.200 --> 0:10:58.880 And there was other times that you you have to 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:02.280 knife up or you have to show up physically. And 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:04.440 I'm not a big guy, of course, but like I 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:09.200 don't tolerate like anti trams bullshit in my life anywhere, 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:12.040 and that includes in prison, and so like there are 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:14.320 times you have to step to people and say, like 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:17.480 I am not gonna let this person have this happen 0:11:17.520 --> 0:11:19.120 to them, and if you want to continue doing this, 0:11:19.200 --> 0:11:21.679 then like we're going to take it to the next level. 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.440 And I wish to god there was more prison allies 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:28.160 that would be willing to do that inside, because once 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.600 someone is shown to have like support, it makes them 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:34.600 less easy to be a victim. If people see that 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:36.959 like this person's trams or like other people are riding 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:39.920 with them, they're less likely to go after them because 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.320 they'll be consequences. But if they're all alone, then they're 0:11:43.400 --> 0:11:46.600 just a sitting duck. And so like we need that, 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.719 we need CIS men to show up and be like 0:11:50.160 --> 0:11:52.320 this is not happening. I don't care what race you are, 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:54.360 I don't care what gang you in you're in, You're 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.640 not going to hurt this person, and that's stuff that 0:11:56.679 --> 0:11:59.360 we had to do. Sometimes it's scariest shit because you 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:00.320 don't know what's gonna up. 0:12:00.360 --> 0:12:03.559 But you have to, like, you have to live your ethics. 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:05.400 One of the reasons that I wanted to talk to 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:08.320 you about it and have you on this show is because, unfortunately, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.679 I mean, prison is kind of a concentration of the 0:12:11.720 --> 0:12:13.920 worst parts of society. I do not want to say 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:15.719 the worst people in society. I believe it has much 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:18.040 more to do with the incarceration and the way that 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.080 people are forced to be right when they're incarcerated. There's 0:12:22.120 --> 0:12:23.719 a tangent. But have you heard the whole thing where 0:12:23.720 --> 0:12:25.880 there's no such thing as an alpha male wolf in 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:26.360 the wild. 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:28.080 I've only heard from you, and I loved it. 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.160 Okay, I probably said this exact same thing last time 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:33.160 we time in captivity. Yeah, And so it's like it 0:12:33.160 --> 0:12:34.880 obviously is going to bring out the worst in people. 0:12:35.240 --> 0:12:36.440 That One of the reasons I want to have you 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.120 want to talk about this is because I think that 0:12:38.480 --> 0:12:42.720 the experiences that you're talking about, they're much more real 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.760 and intense than most people on the outside are like 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:50.520 really thinking, you know, they're like, oh, that sounds bad. 0:12:50.640 --> 0:12:52.480 But then their brain kind of turns off and they 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.080 stop imagining what bad looks like. And I think that 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.800 this idea that we're going to have to stand up 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.679 for fa regardless of the risk and cost to ourselves 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:07.040 sometimes is what it takes to create a society that 0:13:07.160 --> 0:13:09.600 is resistant to fascism. I think it's the same energy 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.520 that people are going to have to do with, like no, 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:16.040 you can't take my neighbors right in the era of ice. 0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:18.520 I think that's really well said too. I think the 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:20.360 way I used to wear inside is like we can't 0:13:20.400 --> 0:13:24.920 take steps backwards. We can't relinquish any progress we've made, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:27.640 not a single pinch of it. Like everything has to 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:31.400 move forward, and whatever you're capable of doing, Like not 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.120 everyone's capable of like physically stepping to someone and saying 0:13:34.200 --> 0:13:38.280 like no, right, But everyone's capable of something, whether that's 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:41.880 doing calling campaigns, organizing protests outside of prison, whether it's 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.680 contacting region, contacting this person, raising money, doing whatever it takes. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.920 Everyone can do something to keep people safe. And it's 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:51.800 the same in the free world, Like it's not different. 0:13:52.240 --> 0:13:55.200 Everyone has something to offer. But it can't be apathy, 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:58.120 it can't be this nihilism that like what does it matter, 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:00.520 Like they're going to do it anyway? Do that like 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.440 we're just forfeiting the future and we're letting our family 0:14:03.480 --> 0:14:04.080 get butchered. 0:14:04.320 --> 0:14:06.240 Yeah. I really like that way of phrasing it. Yeah, 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:13.120 we can't forfeit the future. How can people support transprisoners 0:14:13.800 --> 0:14:16.280 with what's going on right now? I don't know how 0:14:16.320 --> 0:14:18.400 in touch you are with people on the inside and 0:14:18.440 --> 0:14:22.120 things like that. How are people feeling, like what's the vibe? 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:22.920 What can be done? 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:26.720 So I assume, like when you're asking what can people 0:14:26.720 --> 0:14:29.440 do to support transprisoners, I assume you're asking what can 0:14:29.480 --> 0:14:31.400 free world people do to support those inside? 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:31.720 Yeah? 0:14:31.800 --> 0:14:33.480 I mean you actually kind of have said what people 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.479 on the inside can do, all right, which is necessary 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:39.040 and important, but people on the outside, what can people do? 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:43.440 Visibility is safety, Like I saw that in my bid, 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:45.160 and I've seen that in other people's bids. And if 0:14:45.200 --> 0:14:47.000 you look at someone like Marius Mason, if you look 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:50.640 at people like Jennifer Rose keeping people visible and letting 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:52.880 the prison know that like we're not turning a blind 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.480 eye to this person, like you're not going to get 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:55.880 a free one on them. 0:14:55.920 --> 0:14:58.080 That cups people alive, Okay. 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:01.720 And so the more the staff and the administration knows that, 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:05.400 like this person is looked after, the more they are 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:07.200 likely to look after them because they don't want to 0:15:07.200 --> 0:15:11.000 be held accountable. Okay, So things like getting books into people, 0:15:11.040 --> 0:15:14.200 things like getting pin pals of people, raising money so 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.880 that they don't have to go into debt, Like that's real, 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.760 Like this debt stuff is serious. So making sure they 0:15:19.800 --> 0:15:21.800 have money on their books, Like I don't care what 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:22.360 they spend it on. 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:23.600 I don't care if they spend it on drugs. I 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.040 don't care if they spend it on twenty bags of coffee. 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:28.280 Are gambling as long as it keeps them out of 0:15:28.320 --> 0:15:31.240 slavery or out of that knife, like that's what matters. 0:15:31.840 --> 0:15:34.560 And then Patsy names around like it's almost as if 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.440 we concentrate like all of our prisons supporting like five 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:39.800 or six people and then we forget that there's like 0:15:39.840 --> 0:15:41.600 fifteen thousand trans people in prison. 0:15:41.720 --> 0:15:42.720 Yeah, and so. 0:15:42.920 --> 0:15:45.640 Organizations like Black and Pink do a really amazing job, 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.560 but like there's there's not enough. Like we need visibility, 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.840 like we need to keep people present in our lives 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:55.960 that we don't know and we might not like their charges. 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.040 They might not be nice people, like, they might not 0:15:58.120 --> 0:16:00.720 be cool, but we need to get keep them alive. 0:16:00.840 --> 0:16:03.280 Like that's what abolition is. So visibility. 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:06.440 Yeah, that makes sense. I sort of know the answer 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:08.400 to this, but I'm gonna pretend like I don't know 0:16:08.400 --> 0:16:11.120 it at all. What's Black and Pink. Black and Pink 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:13.160 is an organization. I know it used to be an 0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:14.160 anarchist organization. 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:16.720 It might be something else now, but it's an organization 0:16:16.760 --> 0:16:20.320 that's focused strictly on supporting trans and queer prisoners. 0:16:20.720 --> 0:16:21.360 That's all they do. 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:24.720 Social prisoners, political prisoners, it doesn't matter. We're gonna find 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:26.840 you a pin pal and we're gonna get people to 0:16:26.840 --> 0:16:29.280 write you. And they do a really amazing job. Like 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:32.560 I honor them for putting in that work because it's hard. 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:36.040 And so someone who's listening, who's never considered being pen 0:16:36.120 --> 0:16:38.680 pals of the prisoner could get in touch with Black 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.440 and Pink and be hooked up with someone to write to. 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:42.560 Yeah, if you like. 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:44.840 Even just like right now, someone googled Black and Pink 0:16:44.880 --> 0:16:47.600 pin pal m, black and Pink prison pinpal, Like it'll 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.640 pop up the website. You just click on flying a 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.880 pin pal and you can find someone in your city, 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:54.480 find someone in your state, find someone back to relate to, 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.760 like to have a little biography, and you can find 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.280 someone like to connect with and potentially save their life 0:16:59.320 --> 0:16:59.960 or save your life. 0:17:00.280 --> 0:17:01.920 Yeah, it can make you better too. 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:06.400 Yeah, okay, so writing helps when you talk about putting 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:08.600 money on people's books, like who does that? Is that 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.080 something you also could go through Black and Pink. Should 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:13.520 people be doing their own fundraisers and then like working 0:17:13.520 --> 0:17:16.920 with prisoners that they've already made connections with, Like how 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.520 should people either plug in or start things? 0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:23.080 So each prison is different, like state and federal, but 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:25.840 to put money on someone's books, she can do that yourself. 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:28.080 You go you find out wherever prison that person's at, 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:30.520 and you can just go to the BOP website or 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:33.800 that prison's website. BOP is Bureau Prisons. It's for federal 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.240 people and it will just walk you through how to 0:17:36.280 --> 0:17:38.360 do it, how to send the money ground from Walmart, 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.840 or how to do the JPay and put it on 0:17:40.880 --> 0:17:42.800 through your credit card, and you can do it, like 0:17:42.880 --> 0:17:45.520 if there's an ABC in America's Black Cross. 0:17:45.320 --> 0:17:47.920 Community near you, you can fundraise with them. 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.840 If there's any like books through bars or ablitions groups 0:17:51.880 --> 0:17:54.720 near you, like you can and should fundraise with them 0:17:54.760 --> 0:17:57.959 to raise awareness, but you don't have to. But everyone 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:00.280 can do this on your own, Like this is a 0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:02.840 a single person job, but it's better if we do 0:18:02.880 --> 0:18:03.680 it as a community. 0:18:04.119 --> 0:18:07.359 Well, the way that I fund raised is that I 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:12.120 have advertisers that interrupt me talking about anti capitalist things. 0:18:12.240 --> 0:18:16.080 And here's one of those interruptions. And I'm gonna go 0:18:16.119 --> 0:18:18.640 ahead and donate my pay for this episode to exactly 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.760 what we're talking about. And here's ads they are not donating. 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:24.600 You can think of whatever you want about these ads, 0:18:34.600 --> 0:18:38.399 and we're back, okay with this new executive order. Like, 0:18:38.800 --> 0:18:41.960 how are people feeling either inside or people who are 0:18:42.000 --> 0:18:45.359 doing prison abolition work, or like how crisis does this feel? 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:46.399 Like? What's going on? 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:48.720 I can't like speak for it should keel like a 0:18:48.720 --> 0:18:52.880 ten out of ten? Yeah, like this is a carceral genocide. Yeah, real, 0:18:53.480 --> 0:18:55.600 this isn't a rature of an entire people. So like, 0:18:55.640 --> 0:18:57.439 if you're not at a ten for this, like you 0:18:57.600 --> 0:18:59.919 either do not care or you're not understanding how serious 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:03.000 the prison system is. I've talked to a couple homies inside. 0:19:03.000 --> 0:19:04.919 I have to be really delicate because I'm still on probation. 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:10.200 But those people understand that, like the mood is turning dark. Okay, 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.000 they see inside that like when fascists come into power, 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:18.600 it empowers everyone else below them to be brutal because 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.000 they can get away with it now. And so these 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.080 people that were already monsters under the most liberal of 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.320 prison director are now getting told by the president that 0:19:27.359 --> 0:19:29.959 they do not have to respect this person's entire life. 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.439 And so it's a very serious situation. We've got a 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.119 non binary person about to go in name Casey Goonan, 0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:40.639 and they got sentenced for allegedly firebombing some cop cars 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.760 and support with Palestine, and I talk with them on 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.760 a weekly basis, just trying to prepare them because like 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.639 right now, where they're at is a jail and they 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:53.280 haven't really experienced the prison yet, and so it's all 0:19:53.320 --> 0:19:56.280 about like getting them ready for like here are potentials, 0:19:56.760 --> 0:19:59.280 like here's what they could do, but it's dark in there, 0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:01.440 like the Nazis are are celebrating, and that includes the 0:20:01.440 --> 0:20:03.080 ones with badges especially. 0:20:02.880 --> 0:20:05.760 Yeah, that makes sense. What kind of support felt the 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.120 most useful to you in other prisoners? He talked about 0:20:08.119 --> 0:20:09.840 this a little bit, But I'm I'm like curious about 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:13.800 like you talked about, like visibility, are protests outside of jails? 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.679 Do they do they make people feel like good and 0:20:16.760 --> 0:20:19.960 welcome or does it make the guards cracked down on everyone? 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:21.919 Like I know that there's this you know, habit of 0:20:21.960 --> 0:20:25.600