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Speaker 1: All Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to It Could Happen Here, a podcast

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Speaker 2: about things falling apart and how to put them back together.

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Speaker 2: I'm your guest host, Margaret Kiljoy, and this is an

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Speaker 2: episode about both of those things. Not Margaret and Killjoy,

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Speaker 2: but about things falling apart and putting them back together.

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Speaker 2: If you live in the US, you might have noticed

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Speaker 2: that things are falling apart in the onslaught of new

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Speaker 2: federal changes over the past few weeks. There is one

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Speaker 2: that is both astoundingly important and also likely to disappear

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Speaker 2: below people's radars because it affects prisoners. Trans prisoners. Prison

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Speaker 2: is the place that society puts people to forget that

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Speaker 2: they exist. It shouldn't be that way, while prisons ought

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Speaker 2: not to be how we solve problems as a society

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Speaker 2: at all, but it is the way that things currently are.

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Speaker 2: Things that affect prisoners are routinely ignored, even though we

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Speaker 2: live in a society built on the idea of incarceration.

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Speaker 2: It's been in the news that US trans people somehow

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Speaker 2: just sort of don't exist anymore, that everyone is either

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Speaker 2: male or female, dictated at birth and immutable. Obviously, this

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Speaker 2: flies in the face of biological and social reality, and

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Speaker 2: it's going to impact us trans people quite a bit.

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Speaker 2: One group of people that it's going to impact very immediately,

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Speaker 2: very dramatically, and very dangerously is trans prisoners. According to

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Speaker 2: Bureau of Prison Statistics, there are currently one thousand, five

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Speaker 2: hundred and twenty nine trans women and seven hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty four trans men held in federal prisons, and not

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Speaker 2: all of them are being held in gender appropriate prisons already.

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Speaker 2: As we're going to talk about with our guests in

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Speaker 2: a bit, prisoners have to go through an incredible amount

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Speaker 2: of dehumanization in order to have a chance of being

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Speaker 2: placed in the right facility. But now that isn't an option,

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Speaker 2: and women are being moved into men's prisons. Does the

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Speaker 2: idea of being a woman in a men's prison scare you?

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Speaker 3: It should.

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Speaker 2: It's terrifying. It's worse than what you might imagine. One

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Speaker 2: trans woman prisoner who's using a pseudonym for her lawsuit

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Speaker 2: going by Maria Moe, has already filed a lawsuit in

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Speaker 2: federal court to stop this new regulation. She is challenging

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Speaker 2: it on both procedural and constitutional grounds. The government didn't

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Speaker 2: go about this in the legal manner, and to house

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Speaker 2: trans women with men goes against the Eighth Amendment, which

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Speaker 2: prohibits cruel and unusual punishment, as well as the Fifth

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Speaker 2: Amendments do process clause. I simply can't imagine putting a

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Speaker 2: woman into men's prison as anything other than cruel and

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Speaker 2: unusual punishment. The state can pretend that trans women aren't women,

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Speaker 2: but the men in prison will not treat her like

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Speaker 2: how they treat assists men. On January twenty first, the

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Speaker 2: woman suing the prison system was told that she was

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Speaker 2: going to be moved to men's prison after all of

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Speaker 2: her records were suddenly changed to mark her male. Federal

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Speaker 2: data says that trans prisoners are sexually assaulted at ten

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Speaker 2: times the rate of other prisoners, and that's the state's

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Speaker 2: own reporting on the issue. But you know who doesn't

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Speaker 2: know how to effortlessly transition to ads after saying something

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Speaker 2: as serious as that, it's me, I don't know how

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Speaker 2: to effortlessly transitions ads. After giving you a statistic like that,

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Speaker 2: When we come back, we're going to talk about how

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Speaker 2: serious the situation is, but also provide just an absolute

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Speaker 2: incredible number of things that you can do at various

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Speaker 2: levels of risk to support the people whose lives are about.

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Speaker 4: To be ruined by this policy change.

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Speaker 2: Okay, and we're back. So to talk about how trans

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Speaker 2: people fair in prison, I have brought on my friend

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Speaker 2: with the most experience in prison, the former political prisoner

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Speaker 2: Eric King. Eric served just shy of ten years in

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Speaker 2: prison for throwing a molotov into an empty federal building

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Speaker 2: one night in response to the Ferguson uprising of twenty fourteen.

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Speaker 2: Those were a protests that were anti police protests that

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Speaker 2: started in the wake of the police killing of eighteen

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Speaker 2: year old black man Michael Brown. Eric is also the

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Speaker 2: co editor of a book called Rattling the Cages, Oral

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Speaker 2: Histories of North American Political Prisoners, which has a forward

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Speaker 2: by none other than Angela Davis and is worth checking out.

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Speaker 2: Eric was released from the eighty X Supermax in December

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty three. He walked out of prison wearing a

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Speaker 2: support trans kid shirt and has been vocal about his

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Speaker 2: support for us as soon as he walked out the door. So, Eric,

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Speaker 2: thanks for coming on. It could happen here.

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Speaker 3: How are you. I'm doing really well, glad to be back.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so you reached out to me about this. What

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Speaker 2: would you call it, like a policy change?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, executive order?

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Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, you know, And basically we talked about

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Speaker 2: like how do we try and make sure that people

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Speaker 2: know about what's happening. And I wanted to ask you, So,

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Speaker 2: you're a SIS man and you didn't have an easy

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Speaker 2: time in prison, right as far as I as far

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Speaker 2: as I understand now, I think no one gets to

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Speaker 2: have an easy time in prison is one of the things,

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Speaker 2: especially in a supermax, So.

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Speaker 3: Not that easier than others.

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Speaker 2: I guess, yeah, you were not among the people who

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Speaker 2: had it easier. And as I would follow your journey

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Speaker 2: through the federal prison system, it seems like you had

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Speaker 2: to defend yourself against both other prisoners and also prison staff.

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Speaker 2: Is that a fair way to put it mildly?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, that was what was going on.

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Speaker 2: Can you tell me a bit about the experience of

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Speaker 2: trans people in prison, because when you look at this

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Speaker 2: executive order, it sort of implies like all trans women

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Speaker 2: are in women's prison and all trans men. Actually, I

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Speaker 2: literally have no idea or transmit are held. I would

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Speaker 2: rather if I was a transmit, I'd probably rather be

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Speaker 2: in women's prison. I just Anyway, I don't know what

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Speaker 2: was the situation like before this executive order.

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Speaker 5: So I want to start with saying, like, the reason

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Speaker 5: I hit you up is because there's so much like

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Speaker 5: horror happening this first week of like Trump's new presidency,

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Speaker 5: and I didn't want this issue to get swept under

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Speaker 5: the rug. Yeah, a lot of times, the bigger, more

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Speaker 5: mainstream issues will get the most attention. And I still

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Speaker 5: remember our trans family inside, and so that's what scared

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Speaker 5: me enough to be like, dude, I need to talk

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Speaker 5: to you about this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So when I was.

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Speaker 5: Inside, there was not very many trans people, and they're like,

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Speaker 5: correct prison, Like a trans woman should be in a

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Speaker 5: women's prison, Yeah, a trans man should be in a

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Speaker 5: man's prison.

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Speaker 3: And that wasn't happening on the level that it should have.

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Speaker 5: And there was a rare case like Marius Mason who

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Speaker 5: had enough support, enough publicity where they were able to

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Speaker 5: Most people were stuck at their gender at birth. And

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Speaker 5: so over the last couple of years, people started getting

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Speaker 5: a lot more access to safe prisons. That's why I'll

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Speaker 5: call them my prisons where they feel safest. So I

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Speaker 5: trans women were starting to go to women's prisons, and

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Speaker 5: it wasn't very many.

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Speaker 3: It's not like there's tens of thousands, but handfuls.

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Speaker 5: Because it is it's very hard in the federal system

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Speaker 5: to get recognized as a transgender person. You have to

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Speaker 5: go through years of degrading and humiliating therapy with the

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Speaker 5: prison psychologist. You have to get just horribly treated by

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Speaker 5: doctors who ignore you, gasight, you diminish, you try to

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Speaker 5: push Christianity on you, and then if you make it

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Speaker 5: through their brutality, then you were one of the lucky ones.

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Speaker 3: You got to say, like, I am this person, this

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Speaker 3: is who I am.

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Speaker 5: And if you're even more lucky, you got to be

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Speaker 5: transferred to a prison that would make you feel the safest,

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Speaker 5: the most whole is a human and that's the goal, Like,

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Speaker 5: that's the safety goal. Basically, that's where we wanted things

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Speaker 5: to be pushed. That people would be recognized for who

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Speaker 5: they are, they would get treated for for who they were,

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Speaker 5: and they would be sent to a prison that was

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Speaker 5: congruent with who they were. And that's what's all being

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Speaker 5: taken away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and when you talk about the safety, I don't

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Speaker 2: want to like necessarily go on at great length about

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Speaker 2: how trans women suffer invents prisons, but it's probably worth

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Speaker 2: talking about, like because you've described it as there's like

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Speaker 2: literal sexual slavery happening in the prisons. Is that a

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Speaker 2: fair way to put it?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, one hundred and ten percent yes, yes, And I

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Speaker 5: only speak for federal prisons. I know in some states

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Speaker 5: it's different. Like in some states people are able to

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Speaker 5: use like their femininity as like a power play as

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Speaker 5: a tool to keep themselves safe. And so if that,

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Speaker 5: if that's an option, then great. But what eye witness

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Speaker 5: in the federal prison was the exact opposite of that.

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Speaker 5: People are getting destroyed. And if you go into a

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Speaker 5: men's prison presenting as female in any way or soft anywhere,

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Speaker 5: or as any type of one or any type of

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Speaker 5: nonsense straight male, you are an automatic target. And it's

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Speaker 5: not like hyperbole to say that if you walked onto

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Speaker 5: a penitentiary yard and you had makeup, if you had

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Speaker 5: your hair long, if you had breast, if you had

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Speaker 5: anything presenting as female, you will get butchered within an hour.

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Speaker 5: You won't survive that, or you'll get by some group and.

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Speaker 3: You will be a site like you will be property.

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Speaker 5: And at the lower custody levels it's a lot safer

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Speaker 5: if you're at a low security like FCI Englewood.

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Speaker 3: You're not in danger there.

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Speaker 5: You're a danger of humiliation and being degraded by staff,

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Speaker 5: but you're not going to get stabbed there. But God

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Speaker 5: forbid you go to Victorville Medium, Florence Medium, or any

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Speaker 5: PENITENTI tree, like, that's a death sentence for real.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, do you want to talk about the worst things

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Speaker 2: I've ever happened to you? Do you want to talk

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Speaker 2: about you and I? We did another episode on my

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Speaker 2: other podcast, Live like the World is Dying and talking

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Speaker 2: about how to survive prison, and in it you talked

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Speaker 2: a little bit about what was necessary to kind of

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Speaker 2: stand up for trans prisoners. Do you want to talk

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Speaker 2: about that a little bit?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So, like everyone needs to have like consequence awareness

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Speaker 5: and they need to work on the lines that make

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Speaker 5: them feel most comfortable. Of course, but for me, I

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Speaker 5: was not comfortable at all watching trans or gay prisoners

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Speaker 5: get brutalized. And so there were times where we have

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Speaker 5: to raise money to buy a prisoner.

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Speaker 3: Out of sex slavery.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, we just have to buy them and then basically

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Speaker 5: free them or pay off whatever debt they owed.

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Speaker 3: So that they no longer have to be in that situation.

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Speaker 5: And there was other times that you you have to

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Speaker 5: knife up or you have to show up physically. And

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Speaker 5: I'm not a big guy, of course, but like I

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Speaker 5: don't tolerate like anti trams bullshit in my life anywhere,

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Speaker 5: and that includes in prison, and so like there are

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Speaker 5: times you have to step to people and say, like

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Speaker 5: I am not gonna let this person have this happen

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Speaker 5: to them, and if you want to continue doing this,

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Speaker 5: then like we're going to take it to the next level.

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Speaker 5: And I wish to god there was more prison allies

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Speaker 5: that would be willing to do that inside, because once

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Speaker 5: someone is shown to have like support, it makes them

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Speaker 5: less easy to be a victim. If people see that

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Speaker 5: like this person's trams or like other people are riding

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Speaker 5: with them, they're less likely to go after them because

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Speaker 5: they'll be consequences. But if they're all alone, then they're

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Speaker 5: just a sitting duck. And so like we need that,

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Speaker 5: we need CIS men to show up and be like

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Speaker 5: this is not happening. I don't care what race you are,

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Speaker 5: I don't care what gang you in you're in, You're

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Speaker 5: not going to hurt this person, and that's stuff that

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Speaker 5: we had to do. Sometimes it's scariest shit because you

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Speaker 5: don't know what's gonna up.

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Speaker 3: But you have to, like, you have to live your ethics.

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Speaker 2: One of the reasons that I wanted to talk to

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Speaker 2: you about it and have you on this show is because, unfortunately,

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Speaker 2: I mean, prison is kind of a concentration of the

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Speaker 2: worst parts of society. I do not want to say

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Speaker 2: the worst people in society. I believe it has much

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Speaker 2: more to do with the incarceration and the way that

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Speaker 2: people are forced to be right when they're incarcerated. There's

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Speaker 2: a tangent. But have you heard the whole thing where

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Speaker 2: there's no such thing as an alpha male wolf in

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Speaker 2: the wild.

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Speaker 3: I've only heard from you, and I loved it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I probably said this exact same thing last time

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Speaker 2: we time in captivity. Yeah, And so it's like it

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Speaker 2: obviously is going to bring out the worst in people.

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Speaker 2: That One of the reasons I want to have you

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Speaker 2: want to talk about this is because I think that

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Speaker 2: the experiences that you're talking about, they're much more real

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Speaker 2: and intense than most people on the outside are like

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Speaker 2: really thinking, you know, they're like, oh, that sounds bad.

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Speaker 2: But then their brain kind of turns off and they

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Speaker 2: stop imagining what bad looks like. And I think that

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Speaker 2: this idea that we're going to have to stand up

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Speaker 2: for fa regardless of the risk and cost to ourselves

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Speaker 2: sometimes is what it takes to create a society that

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Speaker 2: is resistant to fascism. I think it's the same energy

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Speaker 2: that people are going to have to do with, like no,

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Speaker 2: you can't take my neighbors right in the era of ice.

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Speaker 5: I think that's really well said too. I think the

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Speaker 5: way I used to wear inside is like we can't

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Speaker 5: take steps backwards. We can't relinquish any progress we've made,

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Speaker 5: not a single pinch of it. Like everything has to

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Speaker 5: move forward, and whatever you're capable of doing, Like not

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Speaker 5: everyone's capable of like physically stepping to someone and saying

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Speaker 5: like no, right, But everyone's capable of something, whether that's

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Speaker 5: doing calling campaigns, organizing protests outside of prison, whether it's

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Speaker 5: contacting region, contacting this person, raising money, doing whatever it takes.

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Speaker 5: Everyone can do something to keep people safe. And it's

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Speaker 5: the same in the free world, Like it's not different.

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Speaker 5: Everyone has something to offer. But it can't be apathy,

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Speaker 5: it can't be this nihilism that like what does it matter,

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Speaker 5: Like they're going to do it anyway? Do that like

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Speaker 5: we're just forfeiting the future and we're letting our family

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Speaker 5: get butchered.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I really like that way of phrasing it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: we can't forfeit the future. How can people support transprisoners

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Speaker 2: with what's going on right now? I don't know how

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Speaker 2: in touch you are with people on the inside and

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Speaker 2: things like that. How are people feeling, like what's the vibe?

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Speaker 3: What can be done?

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Speaker 5: So I assume, like when you're asking what can people

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Speaker 5: do to support transprisoners, I assume you're asking what can

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Speaker 5: free world people do to support those inside?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I mean you actually kind of have said what people

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Speaker 2: on the inside can do, all right, which is necessary

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Speaker 2: and important, but people on the outside, what can people do?

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Speaker 5: Visibility is safety, Like I saw that in my bid,

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Speaker 5: and I've seen that in other people's bids. And if

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Speaker 5: you look at someone like Marius Mason, if you look

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Speaker 5: at people like Jennifer Rose keeping people visible and letting

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Speaker 5: the prison know that like we're not turning a blind

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Speaker 5: eye to this person, like you're not going to get

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Speaker 5: a free one on them.

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Speaker 3: That cups people alive, Okay.

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Speaker 5: And so the more the staff and the administration knows that,

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Speaker 5: like this person is looked after, the more they are

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Speaker 5: likely to look after them because they don't want to

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Speaker 5: be held accountable. Okay, So things like getting books into people,

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Speaker 5: things like getting pin pals of people, raising money so

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Speaker 5: that they don't have to go into debt, Like that's real,

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Speaker 5: Like this debt stuff is serious. So making sure they

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Speaker 5: have money on their books, Like I don't care what

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Speaker 5: they spend it on.

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Speaker 3: I don't care if they spend it on drugs. I

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Speaker 3: don't care if they spend it on twenty bags of coffee.

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Speaker 5: Are gambling as long as it keeps them out of

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Speaker 5: slavery or out of that knife, like that's what matters.

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Speaker 5: And then Patsy names around like it's almost as if

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Speaker 5: we concentrate like all of our prisons supporting like five

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Speaker 5: or six people and then we forget that there's like

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Speaker 5: fifteen thousand trans people in prison.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and so.

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Speaker 5: Organizations like Black and Pink do a really amazing job,

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Speaker 5: but like there's there's not enough. Like we need visibility,

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Speaker 5: like we need to keep people present in our lives

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Speaker 5: that we don't know and we might not like their charges.

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Speaker 5: They might not be nice people, like, they might not

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Speaker 5: be cool, but we need to get keep them alive.

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Speaker 3: Like that's what abolition is. So visibility.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. I sort of know the answer

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Speaker 2: to this, but I'm gonna pretend like I don't know

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Speaker 2: it at all. What's Black and Pink. Black and Pink

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Speaker 2: is an organization. I know it used to be an

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Speaker 2: anarchist organization.

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Speaker 5: It might be something else now, but it's an organization

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Speaker 5: that's focused strictly on supporting trans and queer prisoners.

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Speaker 3: That's all they do.

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Speaker 5: Social prisoners, political prisoners, it doesn't matter. We're gonna find

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Speaker 5: you a pin pal and we're gonna get people to

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Speaker 5: write you. And they do a really amazing job. Like

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Speaker 5: I honor them for putting in that work because it's hard.

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Speaker 2: And so someone who's listening, who's never considered being pen

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Speaker 2: pals of the prisoner could get in touch with Black

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Speaker 2: and Pink and be hooked up with someone to write to.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, if you like.

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Speaker 5: Even just like right now, someone googled Black and Pink

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Speaker 5: pin pal m, black and Pink prison pinpal, Like it'll

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Speaker 5: pop up the website. You just click on flying a

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Speaker 5: pin pal and you can find someone in your city,

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Speaker 5: find someone in your state, find someone back to relate to,

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Speaker 5: like to have a little biography, and you can find

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Speaker 5: someone like to connect with and potentially save their life

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Speaker 5: or save your life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it can make you better too.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so writing helps when you talk about putting

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Speaker 2: money on people's books, like who does that? Is that

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Speaker 2: something you also could go through Black and Pink. Should

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Speaker 2: people be doing their own fundraisers and then like working

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Speaker 2: with prisoners that they've already made connections with, Like how

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Speaker 2: should people either plug in or start things?

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Speaker 5: So each prison is different, like state and federal, but

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Speaker 5: to put money on someone's books, she can do that yourself.

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Speaker 5: You go you find out wherever prison that person's at,

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Speaker 5: and you can just go to the BOP website or

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Speaker 5: that prison's website. BOP is Bureau Prisons. It's for federal

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Speaker 5: people and it will just walk you through how to

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Speaker 5: do it, how to send the money ground from Walmart,

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Speaker 5: or how to do the JPay and put it on

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Speaker 5: through your credit card, and you can do it, like

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Speaker 5: if there's an ABC in America's Black Cross.

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Speaker 3: Community near you, you can fundraise with them.

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Speaker 5: If there's any like books through bars or ablitions groups

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Speaker 5: near you, like you can and should fundraise with them

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Speaker 5: to raise awareness, but you don't have to. But everyone

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Speaker 5: can do this on your own, Like this is a

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Speaker 5: a single person job, but it's better if we do

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Speaker 5: it as a community.

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Speaker 2: Well, the way that I fund raised is that I

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Speaker 2: have advertisers that interrupt me talking about anti capitalist things.

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Speaker 2: And here's one of those interruptions. And I'm gonna go

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Speaker 2: ahead and donate my pay for this episode to exactly

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about. And here's ads they are not donating.

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Speaker 2: You can think of whatever you want about these ads,

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Speaker 2: and we're back, okay with this new executive order. Like,

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Speaker 2: how are people feeling either inside or people who are

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Speaker 2: doing prison abolition work, or like how crisis does this feel?

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Speaker 3: Like? What's going on?

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Speaker 5: I can't like speak for it should keel like a

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Speaker 5: ten out of ten? Yeah, like this is a carceral genocide. Yeah, real,

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Speaker 5: this isn't a rature of an entire people. So like,

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Speaker 5: if you're not at a ten for this, like you

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Speaker 5: either do not care or you're not understanding how serious

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Speaker 5: the prison system is. I've talked to a couple homies inside.

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Speaker 5: I have to be really delicate because I'm still on probation.

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Speaker 5: But those people understand that, like the mood is turning dark. Okay,

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Speaker 5: they see inside that like when fascists come into power,

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Speaker 5: it empowers everyone else below them to be brutal because

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Speaker 5: they can get away with it now. And so these

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Speaker 5: people that were already monsters under the most liberal of

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Speaker 5: prison director are now getting told by the president that

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Speaker 5: they do not have to respect this person's entire life.

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Speaker 5: And so it's a very serious situation. We've got a

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Speaker 5: non binary person about to go in name Casey Goonan,

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Speaker 5: and they got sentenced for allegedly firebombing some cop cars

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Speaker 5: and support with Palestine, and I talk with them on

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Speaker 5: a weekly basis, just trying to prepare them because like

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Speaker 5: right now, where they're at is a jail and they

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Speaker 5: haven't really experienced the prison yet, and so it's all

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Speaker 5: about like getting them ready for like here are potentials,

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Speaker 5: like here's what they could do, but it's dark in there,

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Speaker 5: like the Nazis are are celebrating, and that includes the

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Speaker 5: ones with badges especially.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. What kind of support felt the

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Speaker 2: most useful to you in other prisoners? He talked about

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Speaker 2: this a little bit, But I'm I'm like curious about

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Speaker 2: like you talked about, like visibility, are protests outside of jails?

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Speaker 2: Do they do they make people feel like good and

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Speaker 2: welcome or does it make the guards cracked down on everyone?

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Speaker 2: Like I know that there's this you know, habit of

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Speaker 2: noise demonstrations every New Years, and what kind of stuff

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Speaker 2: felt good, and what kind of stuff felt good but scary,

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Speaker 2: and what kind of stuff was just annoying? Like I

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Speaker 2: don't know, I'm just trying to find more stuff that

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Speaker 2: people can do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the noise demos are cool, but they're performative. Mm hmm.

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Speaker 3: It's more for the people that are doing them than

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Speaker 3: the people inside. M hm.

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Speaker 5: But like, let's say you're a trans person out of

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Speaker 5: jail and there's thirty five people outside waving your banner.

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Speaker 5: That will get your respect inside, get people to say,

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Speaker 5: oh right, what the hell is going on with them?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, like that is that's serious to where you can

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Speaker 5: build up a rep if someone's already in prison, that's

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Speaker 5: you'll probably get them fucked up and put in the shoe.

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Speaker 3: That's what happened to me.

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Speaker 2: If there's a noise demonstration with your name, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: be delicate.

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Speaker 3: How you do it? Yeah, because that's what put me

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Speaker 3: in ad X.

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Speaker 2: Oh shit, so that's a real that's a real double

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Speaker 2: edged sword, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: They use that as the as the thing saying I

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Speaker 5: was the leader of Antifa because I got people to

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Speaker 5: come out and protest for me.

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Speaker 3: So I got Pulley Bell, Chapo.

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Speaker 2: We shouldn't tell everyone that you we have to keep

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Speaker 2: it on the DL that you're the leader of Antifa.

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Speaker 3: For real. We dropped the ball. I know.

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Speaker 2: Wait, I've been told I'm the leader of Antifa.

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Speaker 3: You're my leader?

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally yeah.

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Speaker 3: I'm more regional leader.

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Speaker 5: The things that help the most, like in a real

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Speaker 5: life situation, are the things that provide mental safety and

438
00:21:42,720 --> 00:21:47,280
Speaker 5: something to do. Okay, so books, magazines that gives you

439
00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 5: something to do, like empower yourself and pass the time

440
00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 5: and stay out of the way. Money helps because then

441
00:21:52,560 --> 00:21:54,520
Speaker 5: you can do crafts, you can paint, you can do art,

442
00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,800
Speaker 5: you can sell things, you can do crochet. That stuff helps.

443
00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:01,800
Speaker 5: And then letters on this like that gives you someone

444
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 5: to talk to it. People are actually putting thought into

445
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:07,600
Speaker 5: the letters. And I always encourage and I always will

446
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,040
Speaker 5: for as many people as possible to on a daily

447
00:22:11,119 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 5: or weekly basis, call that prison, call the prison, no

448
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 5: matter what prison, state, federal, county, and demand to speak

449
00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:21,359
Speaker 5: with the warden, the captain, the warden's secretary, the lieutenant,

450
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,960
Speaker 5: the head of psychology, and demand to know how is

451
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 5: this person doing? What are you doing to keep them safe?

452
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:30,160
Speaker 5: We're hearing this in this what is going to happen

453
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 5: to our family? That makes a difference. Okay, if you

454
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 5: know a lawyer, pay the one hundred and twenty dollars

455
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 5: an hour to have them do a legal call. That way,

456
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:41,120
Speaker 5: the prison sees this person as a lawyer protecting them.

457
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:42,800
Speaker 5: They don't need to know that it's just a one

458
00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 5: time call. Yeah, but that legal call, just the wellness

459
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,640
Speaker 5: check is what they call it. Let's that person get

460
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 5: word out about what dangerous stuff is happening. But it

461
00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 5: also forces the prison to recognize that they might be

462
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 5: protected by legal system.

463
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so these things help.

464
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's the master plan here for how we're going

465
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:03,560
Speaker 2: to respond to this executive order? Because obviously we're not

466
00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,840
Speaker 2: necessarily in a position to immediately reverse this order and

467
00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,199
Speaker 2: get women put into women's prison, which is a crazy

468
00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:12,440
Speaker 2: thing to have to say. We're not gonna be able

469
00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,880
Speaker 2: to get women put into women's prisons. But is organizing

470
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 2: with a local group. You create a group and you

471
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:22,800
Speaker 2: basically like figure out who the local trans prisoners are

472
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:25,320
Speaker 2: in your area and make sure that you're communicating with

473
00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 2: them and that they're getting wellness calls from lawyers and

474
00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:32,959
Speaker 2: basically like just making sure that the prison knows that

475
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 2: people are paying attention to the fact that there's now

476
00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 2: women in the men's prison.

477
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,480
Speaker 3: Is that that's a soft version of what we should do, Yeah,

478
00:23:39,520 --> 00:23:40,000
Speaker 3: fair enough.

479
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 2: There's other versions that are yeah, okay.

480
00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 5: There's the other version that I wish people would do. Yeah,

481
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 5: there's a version where we do BDS but for every

482
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,840
Speaker 5: single company that's benefiting from prison labor. Yeah, and say,

483
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 5: as long as you let this transgender hate go on,

484
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 5: we're not going to support your business. There's boycotting. There's

485
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 5: putting people on the road so that the cops can't

486
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,200
Speaker 5: show up to their jobs.

487
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 2: Uh huh.

488
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 5: There's protesting outside wardens houses. There's protesting outside governor's houses

489
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,440
Speaker 5: if it's for a state prison. There is tangibly putting

490
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 5: your body on the line. There is sabotaging cop cars

491
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,800
Speaker 5: that go into the prison, there is barricading the entrances.

492
00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,679
Speaker 5: There's a thousand things we can do to say, if

493
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 5: you heard our people were hurting you, whether it's in

494
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:18,800
Speaker 5: your pocket, whether it's in your car, whether it's in

495
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 5: your daily life, whether it's annoying you. We can find

496
00:24:21,640 --> 00:24:23,960
Speaker 5: things to do if we care enough. And we saw

497
00:24:24,000 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 5: people do it for Palestine. And I don't think transgender

498
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 5: lives are less important than Palestinian lives. Yeah, it has

499
00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:31,560
Speaker 5: to be an equal thing in my mind. Yeah, but

500
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 5: the subu side's really great too. That's like that's daily stuff.

501
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:36,480
Speaker 2: No, No, but you're right, and it's like it's funny

502
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,359
Speaker 2: because it's like, in my mind, it's so hard to

503
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 2: ring the alarm bells when all of the alarm bells

504
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,200
Speaker 2: are ringing, and everyone's kind of ignoring alarm bells right now.

505
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess the answer is that we talk

506
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 2: about it like this, but like, how do we make

507
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,600
Speaker 2: sure that people actually listen to the alarm bells that

508
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 2: are happening right now? And I think part of it

509
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: is being really unfortunately brutally honest about what it's like

510
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: to be a woman in men's prison.

511
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 5: I mean, I don't think people understand it all. And

512
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 5: there's all this misinformation too, Like you'll hear these like

513
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 5: fascist talking points coming out of liberals' mouths to where

514
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,720
Speaker 5: like well, I don't want my tax dollars going to

515
00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 5: like pay for their surgery, or I don't want some

516
00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 5: man just sneaking into a woman's prison saying these transgenders

517
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:18,160
Speaker 5: we can rape everyone. And these are like the same

518
00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 5: scare tactics and like misinformation that's used for every single,

519
00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:26,080
Speaker 5: like every single repression you've ever seen. And it's our

520
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 5: job to confront those head on and call them out.

521
00:25:29,600 --> 00:25:33,119
Speaker 5: His Lives show show the real information, and it's our

522
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 5: job to continue to just force people to recognize that

523
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,640
Speaker 5: this is a dangerous and real situation. We can't let

524
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 5: this entire group of people be destroyed, because like, if

525
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,600
Speaker 5: you're going to turn your blind eye to transgender people,

526
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:47,880
Speaker 5: you're going to do it to gain people, You're going

527
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 5: to do it to women, You're going to do it

528
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,480
Speaker 5: to black people, and then it's just you, and then

529
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 5: no one's going to protect your stupid ass. We have to,

530
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,199
Speaker 5: as or as I have to as assist man, we

531
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,360
Speaker 5: have to keep bringing this bell.

532
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: We have to make people listen.

533
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 2: I mean as a as a not currently in prison

534
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,880
Speaker 2: trans woman, Like like one of the reasons I think

535
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 2: this almost happens. I mean it happens because the cruelty

536
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,640
Speaker 2: is the point, but like it's terrifying. You've actually experienced

537
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:15,199
Speaker 2: the thing that's terrifying. It is terrifying the idea of

538
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: going into prison in the United States, especially maximum security prison,

539
00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 2: potentially especially men's prison, both as a man or a

540
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: trans woman. I wouldn't want to be in men's prison.

541
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 5: And I don't even want to compare it, by the way, Okay,

542
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,000
Speaker 5: it's not comparable. Okay, Like if I didn't have antique

543
00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 5: attachment on my face, I could walk into any prison

544
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 5: in a country and be like, oh.

545
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,840
Speaker 3: There's just a white guy, there's just a white roll. Yeah,

546
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 3: I have no problem.

547
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, a transgender person, there's a single place except for

548
00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 5: a protective custody yard, where they can walk in and

549
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 5: immediately feel safe.

550
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the exact opposite. Everywhere they go is fight

551
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 3: or flight.

552
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 5: The scariest moment you've ever had your entire life, point

553
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 5: four to seven, all day, every day. Yeah, picture someone

554
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:54,840
Speaker 5: breaking into your home in the middle of the night.

555
00:26:54,840 --> 00:26:57,400
Speaker 5: In that terror you get. They have to walk into

556
00:26:57,440 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 5: a new prison every single time and face that terror

557
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 5: every single day.

558
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's not comparable at all. It's scary as shit.

559
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: No, that's fair. Like to be honest, like I think

560
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 2: about and this is like maybe more honest than I'm

561
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,600
Speaker 2: usually I am on this podcast. Like, you know, I

562
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: don't do as much frontline activism as I did. And

563
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 2: part of that's like, oh, I'm like aging and I

564
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: have other work that I do, And part of it

565
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 2: is like I came out as trans, you know, part

566
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: of it is like I never liked the idea of

567
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 2: like because I always was trans and the idea of

568
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,800
Speaker 2: like being surrounded by only men was just viscerally terrifying.

569
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: But now in particular, like it's just such a it's

570
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: a mind fuck. It's terrifying, And you know, I feel

571
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,919
Speaker 2: like one of my main roles is to try and

572
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 2: help people be like, look, we're in this together enough

573
00:27:39,960 --> 00:27:41,880
Speaker 2: that you should be scared, but you should get through

574
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:44,639
Speaker 2: the fear. But it's like, the fear of prison is

575
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 2: like such a I mean, it's part of the reason

576
00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 2: that people say, like, no one is free till everyone

577
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: is free, as long as there is a single person

578
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 2: in prison, you were not free because your freedom can

579
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,640
Speaker 2: be taken away from you at any point, and that

580
00:27:56,720 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 2: fear of prison it's funny, Okay, I'm almost doing. You know,

581
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 2: people have kind of like figured out at this point

582
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 2: that like certain branches of Christianity will use the fear

583
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 2: of hell to force people to be good by their

584
00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 2: definition of good right. And it's a scare tactic. It's terrorism.

585
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 2: It is like a you know, you better behave or

586
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: infinite suffering awaits you. But then even the people who

587
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: are critical of that haven't necessarily wrapped their head around that.

588
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,520
Speaker 2: The existence of prisons, especially the existence of punitive prisons,

589
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 2: like the sort of theoretical perfect model of the Norwegian

590
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 2: prisoner or whatever, where you're just sort of separated from society,

591
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,400
Speaker 2: which I suspect is not actually I suspect Norwegian prison

592
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 2: actually kind of sucks. But the American prison system is

593
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 2: a prison system that exists to make you on the

594
00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 2: outside not feel free, like because it can be taken

595
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 2: away from you and you can be thrown in prison.

596
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:49,680
Speaker 3: That's my rant.

597
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I mean you're absolutely right, like that is

598
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 5: the entire goal is to make sure that the community

599
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 5: walks the government line, because if you don't, this is

600
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 5: what will happen to you. And when people pull like

601
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 5: the nonsense stuff like well, if you're not committing crimes,

602
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 5: you shouldn't worry about it, Like they are not looking

603
00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 5: at how like arbitrary crimes are. They're not looking at

604
00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 5: how quickly something can become a crime, or how quickly

605
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 5: something that wasn't a crime can be portrayed as one.

606
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 5: And the trans struggle, like trans people should not have

607
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 5: to be on the front line, Like at no point

608
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 5: should you or any of our trans family ever have

609
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 5: to like put their freedom on the line, Like that

610
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 5: is that's a privileged role, Like that's our role, my role,

611
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: and my boss shouldn't have to get arrested for transliberation.

612
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 5: Like they should be safe, Like they should be able

613
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,320
Speaker 5: to feel comfort and warmth. You should be able to

614
00:29:39,320 --> 00:29:41,800
Speaker 5: feel that safe and warmth and love. Like black people

615
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 5: shouldn't be flighting the black liberation pipe. That's that's white

616
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 5: people's flight. Trans people should not have to put their

617
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 5: vulnerable lives on the line for this struggle if we

618
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:52,760
Speaker 5: really believe in in the liberation struggle.

619
00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's hard because you also want to like

620
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 2: while also not wanting to like lead that struggle, right,

621
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:00,320
Speaker 2: Like I think that like white people putting them ourselves

622
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 2: on the line for black liberation is like super important.

623
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:04,440
Speaker 2: But then obviously you can get into.

624
00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,320
Speaker 3: There's the hero shit and trying to take a leadership. Yeah,

625
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 3: do the David Gilbert role.

626
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 5: Be a soldier how they need you, and help and

627
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 5: fight how people actually need you, not how you think

628
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 5: it should be done.

629
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Well, any last words for our audience around

630
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 2: this particular issue.

631
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, here in Denver, Brenn Rose's Legal Center, that's who

632
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 5: I work for. It's a transgender ran civil rights law firm.

633
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 5: We're about to put forward the trans Bill rights here

634
00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 5: in Colorado to guarantee safety. And I bring that up

635
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,440
Speaker 5: to say that not only is there direct action and

636
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 5: protest we can do, we can also try to weasel

637
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 5: into the legal system.

638
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah. There's a thousand ways we can fight these motherfuckers,

639
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 3: and we got to use every single one of them. Yeah.

640
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 5: And I have nothing but love and solidarity for every

641
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:55,600
Speaker 5: transgender person alive anywhere, And I'm with you, and we're

642
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 5: going to get through this.

643
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: I hope we are going to get through it. Because

644
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: even as inndivid well we might not, right, But that's

645
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,719
Speaker 2: that's true about being alive, right, Literally, none of us

646
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 2: are going to get through being alive alive, right at

647
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: some point that's going to stop working for us, and

648
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 2: they can't get rid of us. We have always been here,

649
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 2: we will always be here as long as there are

650
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 2: humans that are going to be trans people, they are

651
00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: going to be queer people, they're going to be All

652
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:24,760
Speaker 2: of the identities that they're trying to destroy cannot be destroyed,

653
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: even if us as individuals might. But again, we weren't

654
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 2: going to get out of life alive anyway. That's what

655
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 2: I hold on to. I don't know about everyone who's listening,

656
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: but the thing that I hold onto is just literally

657
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: I was like, well I wasn't.

658
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 3: I'm not immortal, you know, it's got a time limit. Yeah,

659
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: And all we.

660
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,560
Speaker 2: Can do is to say, go back to one of

661
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: the first things that you said, we just kind of

662
00:31:44,280 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: can't compromise our ethics, you know, like there's like balancing

663
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: acts right where you have to think like, well, I

664
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 2: probably shouldn't do something where I like while out and

665
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,120
Speaker 2: get myself killed and accomplished nothing like to win, yeah, exactly,

666
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,240
Speaker 2: And some of fighting to win is knowing and not

667
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: to fight and things like that, right, but not in

668
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: a secretly you're just actually doing it at a cowardice way.

669
00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:08,560
Speaker 2: You actually have to be strategically being like where and

670
00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 2: when should I engage in what ways? And there are

671
00:32:12,120 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 2: so many different ways that people can engage. Yeah, thanks

672
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:16,640
Speaker 2: for coming on, And do you want to talk about

673
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 2: your book?

674
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 5: So rather than the cages out right now, it's with

675
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 5: ak Press and it is a oral history of the

676
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 5: political prisoner movement hold from the mouths of those prisoners.

677
00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:31,479
Speaker 5: It covers like fifty or so prisoners from every movement,

678
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 5: Black trans Our Elders are more recent anti fascists, and

679
00:32:36,480 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 5: it is a beautiful way not just to hear about

680
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 5: like oh I fought for this, but what was my

681
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 5: life like inside? What did I experience? What gave me joy,

682
00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 5: what gave me hope, what gave me sadness? And it's

683
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,560
Speaker 5: a way to see the vulnerability and humanity of those inside.

684
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,720
Speaker 5: And I think that's really valuable right now. And here

685
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:55,840
Speaker 5: soon my ad X book is coming out on the Impress.

686
00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:57,680
Speaker 5: Oh cool, So I'll be.

687
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 3: Hounding you for that here soon for that coverage.

688
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,480
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, wait, well what's that book called or about

689
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 5: it's gonna be called a clean Hell, and it's gonna

690
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 5: be about how I want it trial because no one

691
00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 5: does that in the Feds. Yeah, zero point zero eight

692
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 5: percent of people win in federal trial. And then how

693
00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 5: I got sent to the federal supermax and there's no

694
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 5: books out about the supermax there's none. Well, and so

695
00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 5: one of your homies as the inside scoop.

696
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: Yeah I got Yeah, you were just an undercover journalist,

697
00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 2: just a real undercover solitary confinement.

698
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 3: So had Josh Davidson is helping me edit it.

699
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,760
Speaker 5: Josh Davidson from rather than the Cages who who did

700
00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 5: also certain days.

701
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 3: So it seemed to be a really great project. Calso awesome.

702
00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 2: All right, Well, people should check out both of those

703
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 2: things and take care of people inside. And I hope

704
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,160
Speaker 2: that we'll have you on again soon.

705
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: Yay, thank you so much.

706
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: It happened here is a production of cool Zone Media.

707
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

708
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: cool Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the

709
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

710
00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: You can now find sources for it could happen here,

711
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,760
Speaker 1: listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,