WEBVTT - Interview Interlude Playlist, Part 6: Mary Roach 0:00:03.520 --> 0:00:06.320 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stop 0:00:06.320 --> 0:00:15.320 works dot com. Hey, you're welcome to Stuff with all 0:00:15.360 --> 0:00:18.720 your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and i'm Christian Seger. Today, 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:21.000 as you could probably tell from the title of this episode, 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:25.000 we have, well, what is an unusual topic. We're gonna 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.760 be talking about penile transplants, And we just wanted to 0:00:28.760 --> 0:00:31.080 say up front before we you know, dive into this 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.360 episode that every time we've posted something about this subject, 0:00:35.400 --> 0:00:37.320 because there's been a lot of news about it lately, 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.520 whether it's been to social media or we talked about 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.360 it on like our live streams or something like that, 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.519 it often kind of descends into these sort of like 0:00:46.600 --> 0:00:50.879 adolescent jokes, uh, And you know, we want to have 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:52.600 a sense of humor about this, but at the same time, 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.400 like doing this research, it really became apparent to us 0:00:55.480 --> 0:00:58.040 like how traumatizing this is for a lot of people, 0:00:58.200 --> 0:01:01.200 and how important this proced JR. Is. There's some weird 0:01:01.280 --> 0:01:04.760 science to it, certainly, but there's a lot of people's 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:07.240 lives that are affected by this. Yeah, I mean we're 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:09.679 talking about the loss of genitalia, the loss of a 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:13.720 sex organ here, and that's that's a serious matter, and 0:01:14.160 --> 0:01:17.520 I think are our sort of conditioning is certainly in 0:01:17.760 --> 0:01:21.480 an American culture, in Western culture in general, Uh, are 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.600 are conditioning to want to laugh, to want to make 0:01:23.640 --> 0:01:25.720 a joke about it? I mean, I guess a lot 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:27.800 of that is coming from an area of just you know, 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:29.920 you're uncomfortable. What can you do? What kind of what's 0:01:29.920 --> 0:01:31.760 my response? I can make a joke and then I 0:01:31.800 --> 0:01:35.520 can fill that space bred of your anxiety or something. Yeah, 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:38.440 And that's and that's understandable. You know, for the most part, 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.560 I feel like everything is on the table when it 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.360 comes to humor. But in in in researching this, in 0:01:45.560 --> 0:01:49.000 talking with our special guests today, it really became apparent 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:53.080 that this unwillingness to seriously engage with with this issue 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:56.360 has actually held back some of the advances that can 0:01:56.440 --> 0:01:59.800 that that could help people who need it. Yeah. Absolutely, 0:02:00.160 --> 0:02:03.760 So that's a perfect segue into that. We were very 0:02:03.840 --> 0:02:06.440 lucky to be able to talk with Mary Roach for 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:10.920 about half an hour about her upcoming book, Grunt. In particular, 0:02:10.960 --> 0:02:13.200 there are two chapters in that book that are about 0:02:13.320 --> 0:02:17.639 penile transplant surgery for soldiers. Uh. This is a very 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:21.880 real issue for American soldiers coming back from overseas in 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:26.000 particular who have been damaged by i e. D. Explosions UH, 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:30.080 and the military's UH wing of doctors are trying to 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.679 figure out what to do with that, and Mary consulted 0:02:32.720 --> 0:02:34.680 with a lot of those. But then there's also like 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:38.080 a good like ten year history now of the science 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:43.600 of penile transplants for everything from these wounded soldiers to 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:47.520 cancer victims. And then also, as we'll talk about in 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:52.600 South Africa, there is ritualistic circumcision that leads to penis 0:02:52.720 --> 0:02:55.679 is essentially falling off right and and and it's the 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:59.200 situations where it's not full on penal transplant. I mean, 0:02:59.240 --> 0:03:01.960 we're still still dealing with with euro trauma. You're dealing 0:03:02.000 --> 0:03:07.200 with plastic surgery to correct injuries to the genitals. UH. 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:10.000 And that is and and some of that science actually 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:13.560 is what was we end up discussing ends up stemming 0:03:13.919 --> 0:03:17.239 from gender reassignment surgeries and advancements that have been made 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:20.400 in that area. Yeah, And so a little bit of 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.040 clarification to about like the conversation and then the like 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.320 sort of turn of events since we recorded the conversation. UH, 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:30.919 Mary's book was coming out soon. It should be out 0:03:30.960 --> 0:03:34.040 this week grant the Curious Science of Humans at War, 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.720 and we actually interviewed Mary a couple of weeks ago 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.720 in preparation for this, and since then, on May sixteenth, 0:03:41.880 --> 0:03:47.920 the first US UH penile transplant was achieved UH, and 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:49.920 it was announced in the New York Times, I believe, 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.640 UH and actually here at how stuff works. Our colleague 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.040 Lauren Vogelbaum wrote an article and recorded a video about that. 0:03:57.400 --> 0:03:59.600 By the time you're hearing this episode, that maybe like 0:03:59.640 --> 0:04:04.320 two or three week old news. But when we recorded 0:04:04.320 --> 0:04:07.440 the interview with Mary, it actually hadn't been announced here. 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:12.560 So we were focusing primarily on the research and transplants 0:04:12.560 --> 0:04:14.760 that have been done in China and South Africa, as 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:18.200 well as what Mary had experienced in her research with 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:24.080 military medicine right, and some of the depending um advancements there, 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.680 like some of the procedures they're working up too. So yeah, 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:28.520 just keep that timeline in mind as you listen to 0:04:28.560 --> 0:04:31.680 the interview, and you know, nothing's actually broken in the interview, 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:33.760 just keep in mind when it was recorded. So we're 0:04:33.760 --> 0:04:36.680 gonna play the interview now, UH and let you hear 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.400 our conversation with Mary about this fascinating topic. And then 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:43.400 when we come back after that, Robert and I are 0:04:43.400 --> 0:04:46.800 going to go over the brief history and the science 0:04:46.839 --> 0:04:55.320 of what's going on here with penile transplants. Well, first 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:57.039 of all, thanks for taking the time out of your 0:04:57.120 --> 0:04:59.599 day to chat with us here. UM. We've we've really 0:04:59.600 --> 0:05:02.400 been in going uh reading Grunt and UH and in 0:05:02.440 --> 0:05:04.200 the past I've been a big fan of I think 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:07.880 I've I've read all of your previous books, Stiff, Spook, Gulp, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:11.240 Packing for Mars. Uh. So anytime I'm Mary Roach book 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.960 comes out, we get excited. There should be some kind 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:19.120 of special I don't know, bracelet or metal or something 0:05:19.120 --> 0:05:20.760 that you get if you've read all of them. Very 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:23.920 few people have read all of them. Thank you, Thank you. 0:05:24.640 --> 0:05:27.600 With this particular book, I guess the place I want 0:05:27.640 --> 0:05:31.120 to start is UM. I was particularly interested in the 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:36.480 two chapters concerning euro trauma, genital reconstruction, surgery, and genital transplants, 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.240 because I mean, there's the I mean, there's the morbidity 0:05:39.360 --> 0:05:41.920 and the squint, the squeamishness of the topic, but it 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.200 ultimately provides some some you provide some powerful insights into 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:47.279 the place where science and and to a certain extent, 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:50.040 the war machine itself has to try and stitch everything 0:05:50.040 --> 0:05:54.080 back together again, both physically and psychologically. Was this a 0:05:54.160 --> 0:05:59.880 challenging subject matter to undertake? It was, Yeah, for just 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:03.599 the reasons that you've just mentioned. It's it's it's a 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:08.679 sensitive topic. And I'm not known as a sensitive writer. 0:06:09.920 --> 0:06:14.760 Uh if you're familiar with my book, but it's, um, yeah, 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:18.119 I think that because it is sensitive, people shy away 0:06:18.160 --> 0:06:22.240 from it. And I feel like it's important to talk 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:24.159 about it, and so does the people who do the work. 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:31.360 Because somebody's sexual health and sex life and relationships are 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:33.839 in the balance, and that's you know, that's important stuff. 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.400 It's you know, I mean, it's important to get veterans, 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:41.159 wounded warriors whatever you want to call them, you know, 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.520 mobile and walking and able to take care of data 0:06:44.560 --> 0:06:47.520 day activities and be back on their feet. But sex 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:53.440 is important too. And um, a substantial number of these 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:57.200 men say injuries that do that do go up that high. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:06:59.160 I mean it's a it's a it's a fraction of them, 0:06:59.200 --> 0:07:04.239 but still enough that it's it's important to talk about it. Hey, Mary, 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:07.320 this is Christian Sega, the COEs to the show to 0:07:07.480 --> 0:07:10.920 piggyback off of what Robert was just saying, I'm particularly 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:15.000 interested here in the cultural and identity connections that you 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.880 remarked on regarding penis reconstruction. And i'd like to know, 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:20.960 you know, from the research and from the people you 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:25.080 talked to, how much of the repair part is actually psychological. 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:27.720 In particular, I'm thinking of the example you gave of 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:31.720 men who are worried about having to sit down to urinate. Yeah, 0:07:31.800 --> 0:07:35.560 that's there is a cultural um. You know that what 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.080 you're talking about is a euri thrust. To me, I 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:42.560 believe I'm saying it right. Um, wherein if it's it's 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:48.080 one option, if rebuilding the euretra isn't possible or doesn't work, 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:51.440 you can take what remains of urethra and make an 0:07:51.440 --> 0:07:57.640 opening in the Paraneum. Okay, however you pronounce it. Uh? 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:03.000 And then um, the the person would sit down to urinate, 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:05.640 you know, as a as a woman does. And um, 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:09.680 I asked. When I was in the operating room, I 0:08:09.720 --> 0:08:13.680 asked both the surgeons. They're like, how but how much 0:08:13.680 --> 0:08:17.120 of a big deal is this? And one of them said, well, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:20.320 you know, when you're talking about you've lost one part 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.440 of one leg, and you know part of one hand, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.200 and you know, this is not a big deal. The 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:28.000 other surgeon looked at me and said it's huge. So 0:08:28.240 --> 0:08:31.720 there's a difference of opinion there. But um, yeah, obviously 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:35.160 it's I think it's And then she went on to 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:40.120 say that she'd been at a neurological conference in Europe. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:44.280 It was a World urology conference, and it was very cultural. 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.800 They were, she said, the Italian surgeons are like, are 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:50.640 you kidding me? No, you know that that seemed to be, 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.160 you know, an affront to masculinity. Other cultures were, you know, 0:08:55.200 --> 0:08:58.199 it was less. It seemed like less of a big deal. So, um, 0:08:58.240 --> 0:09:00.600 you know, as a woman, it's hard for me. That's 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.120 an interesting thing. You know. There's sometimes, you know, every 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:04.920 now and then that men who are like, yeah, I 0:09:04.920 --> 0:09:07.280 sit down the toilet because you know it keeps the 0:09:07.320 --> 0:09:12.040 carpet cleaner, where my wife likes me too, And and 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.200 then there's other men are like, you sit down on 0:09:15.280 --> 0:09:18.160 the toilet to peace. So I think it's both cultural 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:25.000 and personal. It's an interesting topic. So they're incorporating therapy 0:09:25.080 --> 0:09:31.959 into this then as well, I would assume, um, therapy 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.240 is this is an area of sex, sexual health and 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:39.480 intimacy counseling is is an area that I think the 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:43.719 government would do well to dedicate more funding too. At 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:46.080 the time I was at Walter Ree, there was not 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:50.480 a full time staff person doing just that. You know, 0:09:50.520 --> 0:09:54.280 there's a sense that, um that that you know, we 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:56.400 only have so much money to go around and this, 0:09:56.679 --> 0:10:01.239 you know, sex is it's LIFETI this is this lifestyle. 0:10:01.320 --> 0:10:02.680 You know that this is not going to be a 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:05.640 priority for our taxpayer of dollars. And there are people 0:10:05.640 --> 0:10:08.760 at Walter Root who work with these patients who feel 0:10:08.880 --> 0:10:12.840 like this is really important, Like, yeah, it's important that 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.360 they walk, but it's also important that they be able 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:19.800 to have a sexual relationship that isn't fraught and that 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:21.480 you know, and that and that once you know, once 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.880 you come out of these operations and you know, there's 0:10:23.960 --> 0:10:28.120 just a lot of things to adjust to and and 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:30.760 you know, how do you use this thing now that 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.800 it's been reconstructed or you know, whatever has been done. 0:10:34.800 --> 0:10:38.280 I mean, and it's not just with reconstruction and transplants. 0:10:38.280 --> 0:10:42.040 It's also, um there's a lot of heavy medication that 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.200 goes on, especially in the early months after an injury. 0:10:45.240 --> 0:10:49.520 There's nerves stabilizers and antidepressants and pain meds, all of 0:10:49.520 --> 0:10:53.800 which can affect um a man's ability to get an 0:10:53.800 --> 0:10:57.760 erection or to keep an erection. And that's you know, 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:00.400 that's that's also should be part of the council. And 0:11:00.440 --> 0:11:03.080 there are people there who do it, but there there 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:05.400 need to be more of them. Yeah. So I'm going 0:11:05.440 --> 0:11:07.000 to jump ahead a little bit here because that you 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.360 connected right to another thing I wanted to ask about, 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:12.920 which is this idea that that sex isn't as valued 0:11:13.040 --> 0:11:17.480 financially as walking, for instance. And so I'm curious from 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.040 your experience researching this book, do you think the fear 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.480 of just sex talk in general is preventing us from 0:11:23.520 --> 0:11:28.480 making strides in health sciences. Yes, I think the part 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:30.280 of part of it. I mean the woman that I 0:11:30.480 --> 0:11:34.240 um that I spoke to, Christine Delorier, who runs the 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.120 Wall to Read. It's a sexual health and Intimacy working 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:40.240 group and it's something she does on her own time. 0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:43.560 There's about fifty people who get together and share resources 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:45.720 and who've been working in this area. And that was 0:11:45.760 --> 0:11:48.559 what she said to me. She said, this isn't just 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:52.800 a budget issue. This is the government not wanting to 0:11:52.920 --> 0:11:56.880 embrace sex, and and not just out of prudishness. I 0:11:56.880 --> 0:11:58.840 think just as it's out of a sense of you know, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.760 we we spend taxpair dollars and you know the way 0:12:02.760 --> 0:12:06.400 that taxpayers want us to and and that sex is perceived. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:11.679 It's certainly, certainly certain segments of the population. You know, 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:16.200 that's that's not perceived as a worthy expense. You know 0:12:16.360 --> 0:12:21.960 that that is uh um, yeah, it's it's it's considered 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.880 lower priority. And yeah, I think it is. It is 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:32.000 in some way tied in with kind of a not 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:37.240 a prudishness, but you know it to be spending taxpayer 0:12:37.360 --> 0:12:42.040 dollars promoting sexual pleasure, you know, it's it's it's treacherous 0:12:42.080 --> 0:12:47.600 grounds in terms of getting negative media attention or what 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.839 have you. But it's also you know, I should also 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.520 say the number of I mean, if you look at 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:57.760 the number of veterans whose injuries have left them in 0:12:57.880 --> 0:13:01.080 need of surgery or infertile or what have you, it's 0:13:01.080 --> 0:13:03.120 a small percentage because most I mean most of the 0:13:03.160 --> 0:13:05.640 injuries in the lower part of the body. It's the 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:09.160 foot and the calf and below the need higher up 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.000 you go to the less frequent. These injuries are so 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:17.040 something like three genital ural euro genital. However you want 0:13:17.080 --> 0:13:23.199 to um term it injuries for something like a hundred 0:13:23.200 --> 0:13:26.640 and fifty thousand amputations or sorry, sorry, so I know 0:13:26.760 --> 0:13:30.000 I think it was it's three D genital eurological patients 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:33.880 very eighteen thousand limb amputees. So it's it's a it's 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:36.720 a lower priority in that sense, and you know that's 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.240 when you're looking at a budget and where to spend 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:41.080 the money. That's also part of it. So it's not 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:45.680 just squeamishness regarding sex. But I do I do think 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.840 that probably places a factor. Yes, But as you you 0:13:48.880 --> 0:13:50.760 point the point out in the book, and this I 0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.400 thought was the really important factors. Just we are our 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:57.880 medical technology has has reached the point where more soldiers 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:01.840 are surviving the sort of injuries that would in previous 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:04.520 uh decades would have just killed them out right, but 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:08.679 now just surviving with more grievous grievous injuries. Correct, Yeah, 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:12.560 that's right, Yeah, exactly. The I E. D s have 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:16.480 gotten larger, so the injuries are going higher up the 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:20.520 limb and to the extent where they're affecting the genitals, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:23.000 and that used to be a fatal and you know 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:25.920 that size of an explosion you used to be a 0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.360 fatal injury for the most part. That if you if 0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.160 you're hitting the level of someone's hips, you're also going 0:14:31.200 --> 0:14:34.600 to be damaging organs and so so that's a a 0:14:34.760 --> 0:14:40.920 very serious injury. And yes, these patients are now surviving 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:43.640 more than they used to. But not only are the injuries, 0:14:44.880 --> 0:14:47.280 the explosions are getting bigger, but also the ability to 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:51.480 keep these folks alive has it ANSWD a lot. So yeah, 0:14:51.480 --> 0:14:54.480 there's there's there are more people surviving to need this 0:14:54.680 --> 0:15:00.280 kind of surgery and counseling. So, Mary, I'm curious in 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:04.360 the conversations you had with medical professionals about this, how 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.800 much did they acknowledge the contributions of fallow plastic from 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:13.200 the transgender community as contributing to their work. UM that 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.960 one the very first conversation I had was someone at UM. 0:15:18.080 --> 0:15:20.880 It was a meeting I had It uses the Uniform 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:27.560 Uniform Services, University of Health Sciences, and that first person 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.800 that I spoke to, UH, that's what he said, some 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:32.920 of the you know that these are techniques that are 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:38.400 stemming from work from transgender work. I mean that it 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:41.800 makes perfect sense. I mean that is what has pushed 0:15:42.040 --> 0:15:47.680 the advances in rebuilding building a penis from various other 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:52.080 pieces of anatomy. That's where the demand has been, you know, 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.400 I mean it started out with war injuries way way back, 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.480 but the very early on one of the first you know, 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:02.880 I think one of the first cosmetic surgeons who started. 0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:06.480 I think you're doing rebuilding noses, etcetera. I think one 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:11.040 of those, um was a was the very first transgender surgery. 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:14.600 You spent a lot of time with Dr Richard J. 0:16:14.800 --> 0:16:18.240 Read It at John Hopkins discussing the continued efforts to 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:22.520 conduct the first successful penis transplant in the United States. Um, 0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:26.520 you know, where are we currently in that process? Yeah, 0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.720 right now as of a lot of last week. I 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:33.200 checked in with him, and there's a recipient that's been 0:16:33.240 --> 0:16:37.480 identified who uh And they're trying to find a suitable 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:41.280 match because it's a it's a you know, in addition 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:43.000 to all the other things that you look for with 0:16:43.080 --> 0:16:47.640 an organ with organ transplant, in this case, there's skin color. 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:50.840 And I mean that's the case is similar to it, 0:16:50.960 --> 0:16:54.320 you know, like a hand transplant or a face transplant. 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:57.880 But anyway, they're they're they're trying to identify a donor. 0:16:58.160 --> 0:17:00.240 And I'm not sure how much of it is. Much 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:03.480 of it is is also the discomfort that the family 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.120 might have that I don't know. I don't know why 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:11.040 things are white, why it's been slow to happen, because 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.200 as you, as you point out in the book, the 0:17:13.240 --> 0:17:16.480 first procedure of this sort took place in Guangzho, China, 0:17:16.600 --> 0:17:20.679 back in two thousand six. H Yes, And of course that, 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:23.520 as you point out, that did not exactly that was 0:17:23.560 --> 0:17:26.280 not a successful surgery in the in the long run, 0:17:27.440 --> 0:17:29.719 the this this early attempt at it, though, does that 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:32.520 do you think that speaks to anything culturally about a 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.080 more you know, a more openness to engage with the 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.720 sexual questions involved here, or is it just uh, you know, 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:42.439 more eagerness to h to carry out the endeavor. I mean, 0:17:42.600 --> 0:17:48.240 probably more the latter. I think probably um more eagerness 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:53.280 to plunge ahead and be the first. And you know, 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.520 in this case, it was they claimed it was a 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:01.560 psychological issue, but two weeks later that removed it, after 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.639 having transplanted it there, they removed it, and they cited 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:08.840 a severe psychological problem, but they didn't elaborate at all. 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:10.760 And I wasn't able to get in touch with They 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.640 didn't respond to emails, so I don't know. I don't 0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.119 know exactly there was some necrosis, there was some and 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:23.879 the and they didn't attach all of the same. And 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.040 I believe that the cavernosal artery, there's a there's an 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.359 artery that the U S. Surgeons are planning to hook 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:34.399 up that. I believe that they didn't, so that what 0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:37.600 there was in the China operation, But a lot of 0:18:37.600 --> 0:18:39.479 it is speculation because there hasn't been a lot of 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.840 open communication between the Chinese surgeons in the in the 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:44.720 U S. I mean, I wasn't able to get a 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.800 lot of details about that procedure, only what is in 0:18:47.840 --> 0:18:52.360 the paper, which is that the there was some psychological 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:55.320 distress and it was removed and it looked like the U. S. 0:18:55.320 --> 0:18:57.440 Surgeons told me that from looking at the photographs, that 0:18:57.520 --> 0:18:59.920 looked like there was some necrosis, some tissue that was 0:19:00.119 --> 0:19:04.680 not being receiving blood and getting oxygenated, and that that 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:08.760 um may have contributed as well. But you're asking why 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.000 did they go ahead so quickly? And I think that 0:19:11.119 --> 0:19:17.200 just maybe a yeah, I desire to go ahead and 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:19.719 give it a whirl and be a little less perhaps 0:19:19.760 --> 0:19:23.560 a little less cautious, and a little less inclined to 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.800 work out all the details. I don't know, I'm not sure. Well, 0:19:26.840 --> 0:19:29.919 I hesitate to call this a lighter note, but Robert 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.320 and I were both very interested in how a rectile 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:36.760 tissue can be constructed from the sinuses and also from 0:19:36.880 --> 0:19:39.520 mouth tissue. Can you speak to that a little bit more? Like? 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:45.080 Why is it so good for reconstructive penile surgery? Uh, cheek, Yeah, 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:48.920 but for rebuilding a euresra or part of a urethra. 0:19:49.359 --> 0:19:51.960 And this is, of course a tube that is transporting 0:19:52.760 --> 0:19:56.000 liquid um. The the inside of the cheek is good 0:19:56.000 --> 0:20:00.480 because it's it's used to moisture. It doesn't doesn't steriorate 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:06.000 in moisture, it doesn't break down, it's it's it's evolved 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.040 to be wet all the time. And if you just 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:13.520 use skin, uh, you can end up with um infection 0:20:13.800 --> 0:20:17.520 and fistulas, which is when infection kind of eats through, 0:20:18.000 --> 0:20:19.800 uh to the outside, and you have sort of a 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:22.679 tube going off where you don't want it to the 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.080 other thing. Uh. You want you want a patch of 0:20:27.119 --> 0:20:31.720 tissue that for the penis or the eis. You don't 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:33.680 want hair growing on it. For there three, you don't 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:37.240 want hair because there's minerals and urine which can collect 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.320 and build up on the strands of hair, and that 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:44.840 can cause problems. You get little calcls, little stones basically. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:51.160 Uh So, the cheek is advantageous in two ways. It's 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.000 it's used to moisture and it's hairless. You know, the 0:20:54.119 --> 0:20:57.280 um for rebuilding a penis they tend to use. You know, 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.560 the underside of the arm doesn't have hair. Also, that 0:21:00.840 --> 0:21:04.159 behind the ear is another little strip there that is 0:21:04.600 --> 0:21:07.920 a little careless stretch. Um. And in that case, just 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:13.840 you don't want a penis probably right. I mean can't 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:21.200 I can't speak. Yeah, So anyway, that's that's why those 0:21:21.240 --> 0:21:28.760 particular um patches of tissue are selected. Yet in reading 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.199 you some of your past books, I've often found this 0:21:31.280 --> 0:21:34.879 pattern where they'll be like a section of one book 0:21:35.160 --> 0:21:38.520 and then uh in retrospect, you can I sort of 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:40.320 look back and see like, oh, that's maybe where she 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.680 got the idea for the following book. Um So, so 0:21:43.720 --> 0:21:45.600 I had to ask, when did you decide that Grunt 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:47.480 was your next book? And if we look back into 0:21:47.480 --> 0:21:50.440 previous books, is there a particular chapter in a previous 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:54.960 book that that basically gave birth to this volume. No, 0:21:55.160 --> 0:21:58.080 you have to look into the pages of Smithsonian magazine 0:21:58.080 --> 0:22:00.600 and you even then would never be because it was 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:02.480 a story I had to do with the world. But 0:22:02.640 --> 0:22:08.080 as chili peppers which are grown in Naga land in India. UH. 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:12.280 And while I was reporting that Piezz, somebody told me 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:17.439 that the Indian Defense Ministry had basically weaponized this chili 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:20.760 pepper and made a kind of tear gas or mace 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.400 with this uh, with a nature's own tear gas. So 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.240 I felt like I needed to report on that. I 0:22:26.280 --> 0:22:29.960 went over to the neighboring state of Asam, India, and 0:22:30.160 --> 0:22:32.800 they went to this lab and while I was there, 0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.000 I just there were a number of projects going on 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.359 that struck me as kind of fascinating and esoteric. There 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.919 was a leach repellent project going on, and I remember 0:22:41.960 --> 0:22:44.360 that was the moment where I thought, oh, military science, 0:22:44.840 --> 0:22:48.840 there's this whole world out there of things that uh, 0:22:49.119 --> 0:22:52.200 I have nothing to do with building better weapons. There's 0:22:52.280 --> 0:22:54.640 there's just there's it's a whole world of the kind 0:22:54.640 --> 0:22:56.360 of stuff I like to report on. There's a lot 0:22:56.400 --> 0:23:02.000 of biology and um human related science that goes on 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:06.240 in the name of keeping people alive, which is I 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:08.760 also liked that it was as kind of counterintuitive for 0:23:08.800 --> 0:23:12.600 a military book. It's not really about so much of 0:23:12.600 --> 0:23:14.760 what you see is about the technology of weaponry and 0:23:15.160 --> 0:23:20.080 bombs and high tech lasers and drones, et cetera, so 0:23:20.240 --> 0:23:23.439 that the human side of it seemed just it seemed 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.400 to fit in it. But anyway, it didn't grow out 0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:29.040 of anything in any of the earlier books. It was 0:23:29.119 --> 0:23:33.880 from a story I was doing in between books. Yeah, 0:23:33.920 --> 0:23:36.640 that's interesting for us because we just maybe a month 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:38.879 or two ago, did an episode on the history of 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:42.879 the weaponization of animals for military purposes. So it was 0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:45.679 really nice to see in your book, like the flip 0:23:45.720 --> 0:23:48.440 side to it where it was more of the like 0:23:48.600 --> 0:23:52.800 healing function that all this you know, d G research 0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:56.440