WEBVTT - Curtis James on Maintaining Old Elm 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.800 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. Today, 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:07.320 I'm excited to welcome on Curtis James. Curtis is the 0:00:07.360 --> 0:00:11.000 head superintendent at the Old Elm Club in Chicago, one 0:00:11.039 --> 0:00:14.600 of the premier golf courses in the country and the 0:00:14.680 --> 0:00:19.040 Chicago area definitely one of the least known great courses 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.000 in this country. It's a Harry Colt Donald Ross design 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:28.000 and Curtis has been an influential force in the Chicago 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:34.479 superintendent industry. He is credited by his peers largely for 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:39.480 kind of changing the tides of how courses are maintained 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:44.239 in the area. So he's done a great job at 0:00:44.280 --> 0:00:48.800 Old Elm kind of changing the culture and the conditioning 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.960 of the club and making it one of the premier 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:55.760 courses in the country. So, without further ado, here is 0:00:55.840 --> 0:00:56.640 Curtis James. 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.560 I miss the green, for example, I'm already upset when 0:00:59.600 --> 0:01:01.680 I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:02.680 And when I find my. 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:05.720 Ball in a bright egg Frida Egg, the dreaded Frida Egg, 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.160 Frida Egg Egg. 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:36.920 Brid Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off of the. 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:39.520 Brian Moore was on this pod and uh, he told 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:42.240 me he told us like the pet peeve. His pet 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:47.680 peeve was people that dropped the flag, you know, from 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:50.520 like they don't place it down. He's like, you could, 0:01:50.720 --> 0:01:52.760 you could just place it down. You know. We spent 0:01:52.880 --> 0:01:56.360 a lot of time. And it's funny because, like I had, 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.680 like probably a dozen or two dozen people tell me 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:03.720 that they listen to that, and they've like it's completely 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:05.600 changed the way they put the flag down. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:09.280 Oh I see yeah, yeah on the greens, yeah, taking 0:02:09.280 --> 0:02:11.240 the flag out. Yeah, and the people just you know 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:13.600 what my pet peeve is people that pull the ball 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.320 out with their putter or their wedge out of the cup. 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:21.079 Drives me crazy. I'm like, what are you doing? They 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:23.560 just mangle the cup, but they'll pick it out with 0:02:23.600 --> 0:02:26.440 their putter, or they'll pick it out with a wedge 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:30.600 if they chipped it close, or you know, it's I 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:31.760 just think, what are you doing. 0:02:32.840 --> 0:02:37.720 It's funny because golfers complain about the cup so much. 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:40.760 Yeah, and they don't even know what they're talking about. 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.760 They're like, it's crowned. You know, that's why I didn't 0:02:43.760 --> 0:02:46.400 go in. This guy cut the cup wrong. 0:02:46.760 --> 0:02:47.400 Oh yeah. 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:50.680 But then they're so quick to wedge or putter remove it. 0:02:51.040 --> 0:02:53.360 Yeah, and then they don't fix their ball marks either. 0:02:53.520 --> 0:02:54.000 You got that. 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:58.040 How do you feel about the end of the putter device? 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.280 Oh, you got to be one hundred to be able 0:03:02.320 --> 0:03:04.480 to have that. You got to hit the century mark. 0:03:04.720 --> 0:03:06.840 If you got the little suction cup on the end 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.360 of the putter, it's got to be you gotta be 0:03:11.440 --> 0:03:12.160 ninety plus. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.280 It's better than the all it's better. 0:03:14.360 --> 0:03:17.280 It's better than sticking the end of the putter itself 0:03:17.320 --> 0:03:20.400 and chopping up the cup that's apparently crown because he 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.959 missed his putt. You know, it's my fault. It's always 0:03:25.040 --> 0:03:25.560 our fault. 0:03:25.960 --> 0:03:27.600 Yeah, that's what. 0:03:27.600 --> 0:03:31.480 I don't ever understand. You have golf professionals. They never 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:34.720 blame the golf professional for shooting a hundred. It's always 0:03:34.800 --> 0:03:38.360 the superintendent's fault. But the golf pro give the guy 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.320 less than ten times, he won't get any better. So 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:44.240 how could it possibly be the superintendent's fault. I don't 0:03:44.240 --> 0:03:46.160 ever get it. I'm like, go into golf shop and 0:03:46.200 --> 0:03:48.960 try to get your game better, learn some new shots. 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:56.240 It's uh, they got golfers. Golfers always have to blame somebody, 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.920 So it's the hardest thing in the world. Is playing 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:03.800 the finger at yourself. So how'd you get into turf? 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.720 When did you know that you wanted to have, you know, 0:04:08.880 --> 0:04:10.520 kind of work at a golf course. 0:04:11.760 --> 0:04:16.599 I grew up in a very small town of three 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.000 thousand people in central Ohio, but we had two public 0:04:20.000 --> 0:04:26.599 golf courses, believe it or not, and I decided to 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.520 between eighth grade and ninth grade join the high school 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:34.800 golf team. And part of the deal was you to 0:04:35.400 --> 0:04:37.720 practice golf at one of the courses is you had 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.320 to work twenty or forty hours for the guy that 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:46.640 owned a golf course. So I started doing that and 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:49.640 the owner needed some extra help, so he kept me 0:04:49.680 --> 0:04:53.560 on for the summer as a job. I think it 0:04:53.600 --> 0:04:56.640 was three dollars an hour. But you got all the 0:04:56.680 --> 0:04:59.200 golf you wanted to play in carts and hot dogs, 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.720 pepsi that you could have in the shop there. 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:06.080 It's a smart business. And then we. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.760 Wait nightwater like everybody's always said, oh have you ever nightwatered? 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:12.920 And you go out and put the quick couplers in 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.240 and running on the fairways and you'd be up all night. 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.039 And then you go cut greens in the morning with 0:05:18.040 --> 0:05:23.200 a triplex and cupcutter and national to tease and that's 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:27.120 how I got started and just really enjoyed being outside 0:05:27.200 --> 0:05:30.480 more than anything and thought that was the way all 0:05:30.520 --> 0:05:32.960 golf course jobs were. It was the best job I 0:05:33.000 --> 0:05:35.200 ever had. Little did I know that would be my 0:05:35.839 --> 0:05:38.600 funnest job, and then it all go downhill after that 0:05:38.680 --> 0:05:40.680 you had to get serious and really work. 0:05:41.560 --> 0:05:43.840 So I think back to cadding. I like a lot 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:45.799 of times, I'm always like, God, I wish I could 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:48.160 just go back to when I just caddied. You know, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:50.880 you wake up, I know responsibility. 0:05:51.040 --> 0:05:52.800 I tell people that story and I'm like, that was 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:56.560 the best job I ever had. Was between fourteen and 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.960 eighteen years old working at Wyandot Golf Course and Center, 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:04.280 go Ohio night water and then we would work from 0:06:04.360 --> 0:06:06.920 like six thirty in the morning till twelve thirty, and 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:09.200 then we'd play in all the pot games because there 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.400 was a lot of golf. It was a popular golf course, 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:14.360 and I just thought that was the greatest thing since 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:18.520 slice spread. And little did I you know, at the time, 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:20.560 I thought, oh man, I could do this the rest 0:06:20.560 --> 0:06:23.039 of my life, just work at work at wyan Dot. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.560 But then I went to school and moved around quite 0:06:27.600 --> 0:06:30.800 a bit and learned that the Wyandot days were over 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:33.359 and if you wanted to, you know, do well or 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:36.039 make any money at the business, you had to you 0:06:36.120 --> 0:06:39.400 had to get kind of serious and took a lot 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:39.760 of the fun. 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:40.159 You know. 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.480 I never played golf after that. Really, those were the 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.359 last days of my golf for the most part, you know, 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:49.040 because just never had time play golf once you got 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:50.599 started doing all the other stuff. 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:54.480 So you go to school, and then where'd you get 0:06:54.640 --> 0:06:58.560 kind of your start in the golf industry from, you know, 0:06:58.600 --> 0:06:59.320 a turf side. 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.040 Post graduation, I was going to school at the two 0:07:04.120 --> 0:07:10.400 year program ati a high state and I started an 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:15.040 internship at Chagrin Valley Country Club in Cleveland. And Joe 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:19.600 Volk at the time, who was a longtime superintendent there, 0:07:19.680 --> 0:07:23.440 just retired a couple of years ago. He kind of 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:26.320 took me under his wing, and I did my internship 0:07:26.400 --> 0:07:29.440 and he liked my work ethic and invited me back 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.920 to being an assistant. So, you know, I graduated school 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:35.160 and I had an assistant's job, and I liked living 0:07:35.200 --> 0:07:39.640 in Cleveland, so I went back and I worked there 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.840 for three or four years, and we never had an employees, 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:46.200 so you really, you know, you worked all the time, 0:07:46.240 --> 0:07:49.520 and you learned how to work. And it was a nice, 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.880 you know, middle of the road country club, and he 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:57.160 taught you how to stretch a dollar. You know, we 0:07:57.280 --> 0:08:00.160 never had you know, it wasn't a big budget club, 0:08:01.160 --> 0:08:05.040 but we did a lot ourselves, and you know, he 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:07.160 really taught me how to work. And then then I 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:09.720 ended up moving out of there to bell Air and 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.600 working for Brian Sullivan, and I really, you know, we 0:08:12.680 --> 0:08:14.760 did a lot of construction. That's when I really started 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:18.320 getting going in my career. Was that was the game changer, 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:20.800 moving out to California and working for him. 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:25.840 I imagine working at a club with a lower budget. 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.680 When you move up into like a into a bell 0:08:28.720 --> 0:08:32.080 Air where the budget's so much bigger, it's like a shock. 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:36.360 But also that upbringing of a small budget has to 0:08:36.400 --> 0:08:37.200 help so much. 0:08:37.600 --> 0:08:40.200 Yeah, I think, you know, that was some of the 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:44.760 greatest things I had, was, you know, being at a 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:48.920 public course. I did a growing in high school at 0:08:48.960 --> 0:08:53.800 Beaver Creek. It was a city course. I worked at 0:08:53.840 --> 0:08:57.200 another little mom and pops kind of little country club 0:08:57.280 --> 0:09:01.040 in Gehanna one season there in high school, and and 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.080 they you know, we had a budget. It was a 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.800 private club, but we had a budget of three hundred 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.560 thousand dollars. So you know, you spray hawk the greens 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.800 by yourself. You know, you drove the tractor and you 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.520 you were your own hose guy, and you just learned 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.520 how to make it work on nothing. And then when 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:22.800 you get to a club that has the resources, you 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.800 understand how important it is, even though you have the money, 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:29.600 is to still spend it wisely and still stretch it 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:32.040 to get twice as much done, even at a big club. 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:34.520 And you know, it's not like you got a free 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:37.480 pass here and we're going to give you all this money. 0:09:37.920 --> 0:09:40.480 You know, hire it out right. We still would do 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:42.880 a lot of the stuff ourselves. Even at bel Air 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.959 we were we would strip and prep and lay all 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:50.480 the fairways ourself. You know, we never contracted anything out, 0:09:50.640 --> 0:09:52.280 but we had the money to do it. But we 0:09:52.480 --> 0:09:59.000 just think all superintendents feel a responsibility to try to 0:09:59.679 --> 0:10:02.720 you know, be you know, pretend it's their own money 0:10:02.720 --> 0:10:06.000 and be a good steward of the club's money and 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:08.600 try to stretch as I think that's just you know, 0:10:08.640 --> 0:10:11.320 we're dirt farmers and that's ingrained in US. You know, 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.400 is doesn't matter if you have three hundred thousand or 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:17.679 three million. You're going to spend that money the same 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.240 and get as much as you possibly can out of it. Now, 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:22.440 it's it's nice, don't get me wrong. It's nice to 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:27.800 have those extra funds in case you make mistakes and everything. 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.160 When you're at those smaller ones, you really can't afford 0:10:30.240 --> 0:10:32.160 to make any of those kind of mistakes, can't afford 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:34.839 to go out and spray and then it rains an 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:37.640 hour later. You know, you have that happen to you 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.240 when you're at a big club and how we got 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:41.839 to get to spray out and then it rains or 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.840 like I just wasted you know, five grand, and it 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.000 doesn't bother you near as much as when you're at 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.840 those kind of smaller clubs. But I think, all in all, 0:10:51.040 --> 0:10:52.920 no matter where you're at, you're going to take that 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:57.160 money and try to get as much out of it 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:59.719 as you can, even though you might have a surplus 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:00.880 of it, you know what I mean. 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.400 So at bell Air you were doing a lot of 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:09.240 construction and just knowing you from getting to know you here, 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.079 I can tell that working and doing projects on a 0:11:13.120 --> 0:11:16.440 golf course is a passion of yours, Like the thing 0:11:16.480 --> 0:11:19.640 you love most is that where you kind of developed 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:24.600 that passion and love for the construction and the project 0:11:24.600 --> 0:11:25.640 work at a golf course. 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:29.240 Yeah, I mean I was young there. I mean I 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:33.600 think I was twenty two years old, and Brian Sullivan 0:11:33.679 --> 0:11:37.679 did a great job of just opening your eyes and 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.520 taking the blinders off and letting you see the big picture. 0:11:40.640 --> 0:11:43.120 There was so much more than just cutting grass and 0:11:44.240 --> 0:11:47.240 how to organize trucks, and especially at a place like 0:11:47.280 --> 0:11:51.800 bell Air, it's very difficult with all the neighbors and 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.800 the small roads, and he just really had to be 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.840 on your a game to get things done there. And 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:03.040 he know, he gave me enough rope to to go 0:12:03.160 --> 0:12:06.840 out and pretty much run the things by yourself. And 0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.240 you know, he let you make mistakes, but he was 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:13.840 he was just really he was the guy that that 0:12:14.520 --> 0:12:16.720 you know, Joe taught me how to work, but Brian 0:12:17.400 --> 0:12:20.400 taught me how to think outside the box. And and 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:23.640 he's the one that really changed my life. That move 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.400 changed my life, and that's when I decided that was 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:31.679 really that kind of level of maintaining turf and doring 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:34.840 projects and everything that was something that I really enjoyed, 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.520 and he let me, you know, to his credit, he 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.960 let he let his assistance do a lot of it. 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:43.200 And he you know, he watched us, but he lets 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:47.520 you cut your teeth and make mistakes and and he 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.520 was hard on us, but he was always fair. And 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:52.440 that was kind of what my you know, all the 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:55.560 guys I've worked for, you try to take the best 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:58.200 that you know from each one of them, put together 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.120 in your own recipe. But that always you know, tough 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:05.520 but fair Mentality's kind of always been pretty good for me. 0:13:05.559 --> 0:13:08.280 And work for me with my guys is you know, 0:13:08.320 --> 0:13:10.360 I'll push them to the limit, but I'll be the 0:13:10.400 --> 0:13:13.480 first one to thank them and say good job, and 0:13:14.280 --> 0:13:17.240 you know, take them to lunch or whatever to you know, 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:19.320 you know, give them, give them a half day off 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:22.080 or working hard that week. You know, just yeah, just 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:23.040 take care of your people. 0:13:23.160 --> 0:13:23.320 You know. 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:25.920 He always he always gave us, you know, working in California, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:28.040 work three hundred and sixty five days a year, so 0:13:28.080 --> 0:13:29.720 he'd always give us a day and a half two 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:33.240 days off every week. Man mandated it. And that's where 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:37.240 I also started to you know, work for several guys 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:39.760 where you work, you know, ninety days in a row 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:43.439 without a day off, and you just you start making mistakes. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.160 It isn't that you can't do it, but you just 0:13:45.280 --> 0:13:49.480 get tired and you start making mistakes and learning from Brian, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:51.720 I always try to get my guys, you know, every 0:13:51.720 --> 0:13:53.800 other weekend off. I got twelve good days of you 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.120 that you're going to work, you know a lot. But 0:13:57.000 --> 0:13:59.000 that break they get and then they come back, they're 0:13:59.040 --> 0:14:01.520 just that much better and then they don't make mistakes. 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:02.120 You know. 0:14:02.720 --> 0:14:07.000 Yeah, I imagine managing people as like a big part 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:10.240 of the superintendent. Like, as you grow and you get 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.880 more responsibility, that's probably one of the toughest things to 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:15.560 you know, adjust and learn. 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.440 Right, Yeah, for sure. I mean because you just in 0:14:18.559 --> 0:14:21.520 our profession, there's just such a variety of different types 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:25.000 of cultures and people that work for you. You know, you 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:32.800 have you have retired guys, you have Hispanic Dominican, you know, Cubans, whatever, 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.480 you get some of that workforce. You have young kids 0:14:35.560 --> 0:14:38.880 out of high school or you know, college kids, and 0:14:40.440 --> 0:14:43.480 you know, you have you just have a variety of 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:48.520 people from all different places. So each person is totally 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.040 different and you got to learn them and you know, 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.240 you got to know what they do good, and you 0:14:53.280 --> 0:14:55.440 try to put them together with the right people to 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:59.640 get the job done. So managing people and motivating them. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.720 You know, we're not everybody likes to work outside, but 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.360 we're not a you know, a high paying for a 0:15:08.400 --> 0:15:10.640 guy that just goes out and cuts screens. It's it's 0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:13.840 not something you're gonna You're not gonna get wealthy off of. 0:15:14.280 --> 0:15:17.560 So you gotta find ways to keep the guys interested, 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:23.840 motivated and uh and I think giving them some time 0:15:23.880 --> 0:15:26.680 off and and trying to be a human being to 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:29.920 them and and managing them as a person instead of 0:15:29.960 --> 0:15:33.320 as a labor is a way that we have been 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:36.040 able to keep guys coming back year in and year 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:40.400 out and then try to get these young interns to 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:43.720 get motivated and move on. And so we've been pretty 0:15:43.760 --> 0:15:48.680 successful with that, you know. Then and but uh, yeah, 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:50.640 I mean Brian was really the one that got me 0:15:50.680 --> 0:15:54.240 out there, and then I got a chance he let 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:57.680 me go and do the UH. I was a construction 0:15:57.800 --> 0:16:01.000 superintendent for year out in Palm Desert, Palm Springs, but 0:16:01.040 --> 0:16:04.240 I also came back and built the UH with Peerless Golf, 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:07.560 built the practice facility at Bel air. That was my 0:16:07.640 --> 0:16:12.160 first big project as a construction superintendent. So you know, 0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.400 I got I got the best of both worlds out there, 0:16:14.560 --> 0:16:19.239 the agronomy, doing a doing a big old course like that, restoring, 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:22.880 and then also taking a hiatus and being a construction 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:27.400 superintendent and and growing in golf courses from start to 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:31.480 finish and doing practice facilities and bunker work, and so 0:16:31.560 --> 0:16:35.120 it really rounded out my resume at a young age 0:16:35.280 --> 0:16:37.720 is you know, learned how to grow grass, but also 0:16:37.800 --> 0:16:40.760 learned how to build USGA greens and bunkers and teas 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.600 and and do it the right way too. It was 0:16:43.680 --> 0:16:47.200 lucky to work with some really good shapers and and 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.080 guys that were with landscapes unlimited for a long time 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:53.120 that just broke off and had a little niche down 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:57.080 there in Palm Springs. So you know that that rounded 0:16:57.120 --> 0:16:59.840 me out to to kind of have that passion to 0:16:59.880 --> 0:17:02.720 do that stuff. And I just always thought, you know, 0:17:02.760 --> 0:17:05.440 I think my guys they like a change of pace, 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.240 and mow and greens and projects is a way for 0:17:08.320 --> 0:17:10.200 them to you know, you want to keep them motivated. 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.000 It's given them something else to do than mow and 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:12.880 greens every day. 0:17:13.040 --> 0:17:16.160 Yes, it's like just changing up some mono any change, 0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:18.560 you know exactly, and it's exciting and it's stuff that 0:17:18.600 --> 0:17:21.400 you can see, like as opposed to just cutting grass, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:24.040 Like I imagine you cut the grass and you can 0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:26.880 see it's shorter. But seeing the work day and day 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.600 out and feeling the impact of like adding a bunker 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:32.960 or something like that, there's there's more of a sense 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:33.800 of accomplishment. 0:17:34.000 --> 0:17:38.719 Yeah, it's it's a it's a visual gratification. You know, 0:17:38.800 --> 0:17:44.280 it's esthetically pleasing and gratifying when you build a bunker 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.679 or you change a hole or you you know, you 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.840 redo greens or whatever. You can see all that and 0:17:52.040 --> 0:17:55.440 you know, planning shrubs and doing the landscape around the clubhouse. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.720 These guys like that because they see it, you know that, 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:02.000 Hey I did that, you know, And and that's cool 0:18:02.080 --> 0:18:05.119 for these guys to feel that because cutting you know, 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.560 you can cut straight lines, but who cares about that? Yeah, 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.719 I just want the grass cut. I don't care if 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:13.400 they cut it in a circle, you know, just get 0:18:13.400 --> 0:18:18.840 it done. And these guys don't. These guys, you know, 0:18:18.880 --> 0:18:20.920 they'll they'll be like, well, I cut the straightest lines, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:24.640 but that doesn't do something like redoing twelve green and 0:18:24.760 --> 0:18:27.000 sidding it from your own nursery that you grew the 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.560 whole summer. And you go and you cut the side, 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.960 you haul it over there, you lay it, you level 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:34.760 it out, you do all that stuff, and then you 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:36.640 come back in a couple of months you're like, man, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:39.880 that green's you know, they that's stuff. My guys take 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:43.919 a lot of pride and that, and they enjoy doing projects. 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.439 You know, they know they're in for It's hard, it 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:50.159 takes the hours, but they're always is a change of pace, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.640 and I think that's part of the way we've been 0:18:54.680 --> 0:18:57.879 able to keep them motivated too, and not you know, 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:03.000 get that monotony boredom of maintaining grass. It's like verification. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:07.000 It's pain in it's pain in the rear, but you 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.680 know what, it's a change. You know, Hey, let's go 0:19:10.400 --> 0:19:14.119 Swiss cheese this place, and Okay, we don't have to 0:19:14.160 --> 0:19:17.600 cut today. You know, It's just it seems to kind 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:18.520 of work that way. 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.680 So after bell Air, you went to Wingfoot. 0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.840 Then after bell Air, I spent a year with Peerless Golf. 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:33.240 Like I said, we did the range at bell Air 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:36.240 and then we did Lakita Country Club and some work 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:42.360 at Traditions and the Reserve and Vintage Club down there 0:19:42.359 --> 0:19:46.520 in Palm Springs. And I love the construction, but I 0:19:46.560 --> 0:19:52.640 hated the traveling all over the place. And Brian actually 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:57.480 had called me, and you know, Brian had interviewed for Wingfoot, 0:19:57.640 --> 0:19:59.879 and we thought we were going to go to Wingfoot 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.600 and and then mister Latshaw got the Paul got the 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.919 job at Wingfoot and Paul was out at Riviera at 0:20:06.960 --> 0:20:10.480 the time. So Brian and Paul had a you know relationship, 0:20:11.440 --> 0:20:14.119 and he had called Brian and said, you know, I 0:20:14.160 --> 0:20:18.800 need some guys up at Wingfoot. And Brian called me, 0:20:18.880 --> 0:20:20.919 He's like, you gotta yata go work for Paul up 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.720 at Wingfoot. And so I did, you know, I packed 0:20:24.800 --> 0:20:26.800 up and it was closer to home. You know, my 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:29.600 family's still based in Central Ohio. It's kind of tough 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:30.440 out to talk about. 0:20:30.560 --> 0:20:34.679 Uh So you go Central Ohio to Los Angeles, Yeah, 0:20:34.800 --> 0:20:38.159 to Springs, yeap, to New. 0:20:38.080 --> 0:20:42.520 York, Maronick to Mamernick, New York, not knowing what the 0:20:42.560 --> 0:20:48.679 hell I'm getting into. So I went and worked, you know, 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:53.480 and and you know, I had you knew what Paul was. 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:56.600 You know, he was probably one of the more respected 0:20:56.640 --> 0:21:00.480 guys in the business at the time, well known, and 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.760 I you know, I didn't even see the place. I 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.720 just over the phone kind of told him I'm coming, 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:13.640 I'll be there, you know, I'll do it. And shit, boy, 0:21:13.760 --> 0:21:17.040 I tell you, not that I don't love the course 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:18.959 or anything, but it's just a hard area to live 0:21:19.119 --> 0:21:21.000 up there if you don't make any you know, we 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:24.400 didn't make any money. I mean, we couple of us 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:28.040 got an old, one hundred year old house the upstairs, 0:21:29.480 --> 0:21:32.399 you know, and split it. And it was expensive. I mean, 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:33.600 we didn't have any money. 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:34.080 You know. 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:38.359 We we ate hot dogs and drink Budweiser. That was 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:41.679 our big dinner, you know. I mean we scrounged some 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:45.440 change left after rent and we worked a hundred hours 0:21:45.480 --> 0:21:48.160 a week there. I mean, it was it was like robots. 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:51.080 You know. You got up at four and you got 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:53.720 the spray hawks out and you sprayed all the time. 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:57.639 I mean, it was crazy. And there was a union 0:21:57.720 --> 0:22:01.800 crew there, and that was difficult cause you know, there 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:05.360 was eight or ten of us AI ts and assistants 0:22:05.400 --> 0:22:10.520 and interns that would do all the walking and raking 0:22:10.560 --> 0:22:13.960 of the bunkers while the union crew just set they 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:18.080 didn't do anything except a writing job. And that's the 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:20.600 way it was, you know. And we accepted that. And 0:22:21.000 --> 0:22:24.320 you either either bitch about it or you use it 0:22:24.359 --> 0:22:28.639 as motivation. And I took that as say, I'm not 0:22:28.680 --> 0:22:31.200 going to let those guys get me down and try 0:22:31.240 --> 0:22:33.480 to motivate the other guys that were We were all 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:36.920 in this business to move on, you know. And I 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:39.359 mean we cut a couple thousand trees down ground, all 0:22:39.359 --> 0:22:41.600 the stumps ourselves. I mean there was a pile of 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:44.440 mault so high at Wingfoot that it about catch on fire. 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.879 We had to put a sprinkler on it. And you know, 0:22:47.920 --> 0:22:51.840 it was just crazy there. It was the preparation to 0:22:51.880 --> 0:22:54.080 get it ready for the amateur and the open. And 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:57.880 there was good ten guys that put in a lot 0:22:57.880 --> 0:23:02.920 of time of sweat equity there that you'll never forget, 0:23:02.960 --> 0:23:05.119 you know, we'll never forget that. We called it the foot. 0:23:05.280 --> 0:23:05.600 It was. 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:09.119 There was no fun about it, but we're all better 0:23:09.200 --> 0:23:09.720 for it. 0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:13.320 You know what. How what years were you there for? 0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:15.679 Just I was just there a year two thousand to 0:23:15.720 --> 0:23:21.159 two thousand and one, and Paul had come to me 0:23:21.240 --> 0:23:24.360 and there was some opportunities in New York there for 0:23:24.520 --> 0:23:27.240 superintendent's jobs. Or he said, you'd go back home to 0:23:27.320 --> 0:23:31.119 Cleveland if you want and work for Matt Shaeffert Country. 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.600 He's looking for a guy. And I had talked to 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.680 Matt along the way, met Matt through a friend of mine, 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:40.639 and and you know the opportunity to get back to 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.639 Ohio and be close to my family, and that that 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.120 really tripped my trigger. And I was still young at 0:23:46.119 --> 0:23:49.040 the time, you know, I was still only like twenty 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:52.359 four years old, but I had been to California, New York, 0:23:52.720 --> 0:23:57.640 Palm Springs. He could, you know, pretty good resume, getting started, 0:23:57.640 --> 0:23:58.720 a couple of good clubs. 0:23:59.000 --> 0:24:02.480 Think about the architectural lineage. You had a Thomas, you 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.080 had a tilling Hast and then Country to Flynn. 0:24:05.240 --> 0:24:05.440 Yeah. 0:24:05.520 --> 0:24:08.320 So, se, how did you you know, start to get 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.960 into architecture and start to you know, understand how to 0:24:12.000 --> 0:24:15.879 get you know, maintenance and construction, and but then you 0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:19.440 know the kind of the those are so hingeent on, 0:24:19.800 --> 0:24:21.880 you know, architecture being alive. 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.280 Yeah. I think at my stage at my career back 0:24:25.320 --> 0:24:29.879 then in the late nineties, early two thousands, like I 0:24:29.920 --> 0:24:32.560 look at all these younger guys that are soups now 0:24:32.920 --> 0:24:35.800 there's so much in tune to the architecture then My 0:24:36.040 --> 0:24:39.280 generation was at our you know. Yeah, I think I 0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:42.760 know a lot now about because where I've worked and 0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:47.399 I've engulfed myself into it because it's just something I enjoy. 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:50.439 But I could you know, like you talk about Brian 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:57.240 Moore and Brian Palmer, Scott Bordner, all these younger guys 0:24:57.400 --> 0:25:01.880 that are they just that worked at started off at 0:25:01.920 --> 0:25:05.080 great clubs, you know, across across the country. You know, 0:25:05.240 --> 0:25:08.560 Drew Barnett, you know, these guys worked at great clubs 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:14.240 where they were restoring all these historical architecture and everything back. 0:25:14.760 --> 0:25:16.760 So I think this generation is a lot more in 0:25:16.840 --> 0:25:19.000 tune than what might. You know, we were still kind 0:25:19.000 --> 0:25:22.560 of like maintained the grass. Okay, this is the architect 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.040 You're gonna have Tom Fozzio come in and fix the 0:25:25.080 --> 0:25:25.760 golf course up. 0:25:25.840 --> 0:25:27.919 Yeah, you know, and it was much more of like 0:25:27.960 --> 0:25:28.520 a greenness. 0:25:28.640 --> 0:25:31.320 It wasn't It wasn't a golden age of architecture by 0:25:31.400 --> 0:25:34.720 any means. There wasn't the gil Hans, Tom Doaks. They 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:37.720 were just they were just learning under Pete Dye and 0:25:38.400 --> 0:25:43.080 there wasn't anybody back then that was doing that rugged. 0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:45.800 You know, when I was at Beller, I met Kyle 0:25:45.800 --> 0:25:47.840 Phillips and he was the first one and he was 0:25:47.880 --> 0:25:51.040 doing Kings Barnes and he was the first one that 0:25:51.119 --> 0:25:57.120 I met that really had that kind of rugged, natural mindset. 0:25:57.560 --> 0:26:00.760 The lay of the land put in. Not to say 0:26:00.800 --> 0:26:04.040 that that Tom Fozzio didn't do a great job at 0:26:04.080 --> 0:26:06.679 bell Air at the time, but it was more of 0:26:06.720 --> 0:26:11.919 a more of a green and possibly prettier golf courses 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:19.000 at the time. So my experience, you know, when I 0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:22.000 went to Wingfoot, I knew Wingfoot was pretty special because 0:26:22.000 --> 0:26:23.439 I had played a lot of golf and it was 0:26:23.440 --> 0:26:26.960 a hard golf course. You know, those greed complexes are diabolical, 0:26:27.840 --> 0:26:29.840 so I but I never got to you know, I 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:32.280 played twice when I was there in a year because 0:26:32.280 --> 0:26:36.640 we just never had the opportunity. We worked those guys, 0:26:36.760 --> 0:26:40.240 you know those and that that's the guys I'd worked for. 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:42.399 They never let you hardly play. How Brian liked to 0:26:42.440 --> 0:26:44.720 play and he would encourage you to play, but Paul 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:46.280 wasn't going to let you play. 0:26:46.480 --> 0:26:46.719 You know. 0:26:47.359 --> 0:26:51.600 And uh so when I went back to Country, you know, 0:26:51.640 --> 0:26:57.280 I think Matt was Matt Schaeffer was one that was okay. 0:26:57.320 --> 0:27:01.720 You know, he was a trailblazer for down and Brown. 0:27:02.400 --> 0:27:07.080 You know, try to push that plant right on the edge, 0:27:07.080 --> 0:27:09.000 and we killed a lot of grass. I mean, I'm 0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:12.199 not gonna you know, he'll say the same thing. And 0:27:12.640 --> 0:27:15.359 Matt was good because he let you push it and 0:27:15.400 --> 0:27:17.639 you screw up and you have to go fix it. 0:27:17.680 --> 0:27:20.280 You have to go plug some parts of the greens. 0:27:20.359 --> 0:27:23.720 And but man, he just never let your water and 0:27:24.800 --> 0:27:27.480 he had I think he had the grasp on the 0:27:27.520 --> 0:27:30.720 cultural part of it is the way that a hundred 0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:33.720 years ago, the Golden Age architecture of the Flynns and 0:27:33.720 --> 0:27:38.320 and all those guys, the Thomas's and McKenzie and Colt 0:27:38.400 --> 0:27:41.399 whatever you want to say, those guys wanted it hard 0:27:41.400 --> 0:27:44.000 and fast and just play the ground game. Because like 0:27:44.040 --> 0:27:45.960 you said, you had the hickory clubs, you had the 0:27:46.320 --> 0:27:49.639 you know, the balls that didn't go very far, and 0:27:49.640 --> 0:27:52.000 you played the ground game. It's just that much better. 0:27:52.080 --> 0:27:54.120 And that's the way they designed the golf courses. 0:27:54.359 --> 0:27:54.560 You know. 0:27:54.680 --> 0:27:56.679 It wasn't fly it to the green and hit it 0:27:56.720 --> 0:27:57.600 as far as you can. 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:02.480 What's ironic is it's that game is now like the 0:28:02.600 --> 0:28:07.440 Lady and senior player game, whereas the lower trajectory players 0:28:07.480 --> 0:28:10.840 play the game that was like the great Golden Age players. 0:28:10.440 --> 0:28:15.920 Game, absolutely, you know. And so when I went to 0:28:16.040 --> 0:28:18.840 Country and it was a William Flynn and and it 0:28:18.960 --> 0:28:21.440 was good. It was good. It wasn't something that you're 0:28:21.440 --> 0:28:25.320 going to walk and remember every hole, you know. And 0:28:25.359 --> 0:28:27.520 I'm working for Matt for a couple of years there, 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:32.000 and he came to me and said, you got a 0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:34.200 decision making. You can go to Marion or you can 0:28:34.240 --> 0:28:37.480 stay at Country. And he said, you know, once you 0:28:37.560 --> 0:28:40.600 have the opportunity to go to Marion with me. And 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.200 when he got the Marion job, he's like, you know, 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:46.479 he knew I was. You know, I was really starting 0:28:46.480 --> 0:28:49.200 to get into the architecture kind of with him because 0:28:49.320 --> 0:28:51.640 just the way he maintained a course, I started understanding 0:28:51.640 --> 0:28:55.320 why the architects did what they did. And it's from 0:28:55.360 --> 0:28:56.760 a cultural program too. 0:28:56.920 --> 0:28:57.160 You know. 0:28:57.880 --> 0:29:00.440 You could have the greatest Old School goal, of course, 0:29:00.480 --> 0:29:06.040 and if it's wet and soft, it doesn't do it justice. 0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:10.040 So when I got to Mary, and that's when I 0:29:10.120 --> 0:29:14.400 was just like, holy cow, you know. I I walked 0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:19.080 that place the first time and and I was just like, now, 0:29:19.080 --> 0:29:22.520 this is this is architecture, you know, even though Bella. 0:29:22.680 --> 0:29:24.360 And when I went out to bell Air and I 0:29:24.400 --> 0:29:26.480 got it and I did my interview, I was like, well, man, 0:29:26.520 --> 0:29:28.600 I've never seen a place like this. You know, bell 0:29:28.680 --> 0:29:33.200 Air was breathtaking, and uh, you know, it just had 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:36.200 so much character. I still do this day. Out all 0:29:36.240 --> 0:29:39.520 the places I've worked at, it's it's right up there 0:29:39.560 --> 0:29:41.800 with number one that I worked at, because it just 0:29:41.880 --> 0:29:45.400 had so much uniqueness and character and how he routed 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:48.360 it through the canyons and it was genius, you know. 0:29:49.520 --> 0:29:53.000 And and that's why, you know, bell Air is really special. 0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:57.080 And when I got to Marion, it was just it's 0:29:57.120 --> 0:30:00.600 just pure golf, you know. Not the member were all 0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:05.280 about the club. You got the wickers got you got 0:30:05.280 --> 0:30:09.040 the you know, the white faces of Marion. You know. Man, 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.800 I got there and we just we kind of did 0:30:12.800 --> 0:30:15.000 all the grass ligns and kind of let the fescue 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:18.320 and whatever. Kentucky thirty one grow, you know, just had 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:22.280 the guns rough, you know, and we gave you know, 0:30:22.400 --> 0:30:24.560 just with those grass lignes, we made the golf course 0:30:24.640 --> 0:30:28.000 just a totally different and then we turned the water 0:30:28.080 --> 0:30:32.960 off and it was brown and rolling and fast, and 0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:35.560 then if you really hit a bad shot, you were penalized. 0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:39.120 To me, it seems like, and I don't want this 0:30:39.160 --> 0:30:42.360 to sound like a stereotype, but so many supers get 0:30:42.440 --> 0:30:45.200 hung up like their job is to grow grass and 0:30:45.800 --> 0:30:48.959 because of that, they're very cautious with the grass, with 0:30:49.000 --> 0:30:53.560 the watering and you know, making sure it's lush, rather 0:30:53.640 --> 0:30:56.760 than going the other end of the spectrum and pushing 0:30:56.760 --> 0:30:59.160 it a little to get the plane. Could you know, 0:30:59.240 --> 0:31:02.720 where's the how do you come up with the kind 0:31:02.760 --> 0:31:03.320 of line? 0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:06.920 Yeah, the happy median line. So you're talking about, you know, 0:31:08.480 --> 0:31:11.160 it's a lot of it has to do with your 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:15.560 board and your membership. You know, some clubs and boards 0:31:15.560 --> 0:31:19.200 and membership, that's what they want, and as a superintendent 0:31:20.320 --> 0:31:23.960 you kind of got to give them that. But sometimes 0:31:24.040 --> 0:31:26.960 if you break the mold and go into a club 0:31:27.040 --> 0:31:30.000 and say let me let me try this, you know, 0:31:30.120 --> 0:31:32.600 let me let me show you what I can do 0:31:32.840 --> 0:31:35.680 what I think, you know, you're gonna get more role. 0:31:35.800 --> 0:31:39.600 You're gonna have a lot more different shot values by 0:31:39.840 --> 0:31:41.880 just drying up the place. And I'm not saying kill 0:31:41.920 --> 0:31:43.880 the place. You don't have to kill the place. I 0:31:43.880 --> 0:31:46.760 mean there's there's certain times a year where you can 0:31:46.760 --> 0:31:48.800 get away with a lot more than you know, like 0:31:48.800 --> 0:31:51.360 like right now, you know, you get you get in 0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:54.240 the end of August September, you can ride a little 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.160 bit harder, and you know, the nights get cooler and 0:31:57.160 --> 0:31:59.640 you can come you know, you play the weather. You know, 0:31:59.720 --> 0:32:03.720 mother nature has a big part in how your conditioning 0:32:03.800 --> 0:32:07.560 a golf course. And you got micro environments on the 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:10.959 golf course and all that there. You know, there's a 0:32:11.000 --> 0:32:15.560 fine line that and I think I think guys like 0:32:15.600 --> 0:32:18.920 yourself and people that are into golf that are in 0:32:19.000 --> 0:32:22.240 the supportive movement of restoring the golf in all the 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:25.360 architects have done a good job of Hey, we're going 0:32:25.400 --> 0:32:28.600 to store these golf courses, but we want your superintendent 0:32:28.680 --> 0:32:31.360 to get on board with us. Is let's get this 0:32:31.800 --> 0:32:35.320 little brown and dirty boys, you know, and let's see 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:40.040 where we can take this. And it helps the architecture people. 0:32:40.520 --> 0:32:46.920 You know, it takes members. You have to educate and 0:32:47.040 --> 0:32:49.720 you have to you have to be on the ground 0:32:49.800 --> 0:32:54.960 with them and explaining exactly what you're doing. And once 0:32:55.440 --> 0:33:00.000 you educate them and they start to see the different 0:33:00.360 --> 0:33:03.200 in the playability, more than likely they're going to get 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.080 on board with that, yeah, and they start to get it. 0:33:07.480 --> 0:33:10.360 And I think that's what's happened in Chicago, you know. 0:33:10.560 --> 0:33:13.960 I think that there's been a lot of there's a 0:33:13.960 --> 0:33:17.520 lot of good superintendents, and there's a lot of good 0:33:17.600 --> 0:33:21.440 architecture in Chicago. I think these architects have come in 0:33:21.480 --> 0:33:24.560 to try to restore these golf courses back to the 0:33:24.600 --> 0:33:28.880 original designs, but they've also said, hey, let's let's firm 0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:31.800 this place up a little bit. And I think as 0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:34.360 long as the architects and the superintendent are explaining that 0:33:34.400 --> 0:33:38.480 to the boards and being communicative and educational to the membership, 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:41.000 I think they start to buy in and then they 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:42.080 start to enjoy it more. 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:42.600 You know. 0:33:43.120 --> 0:33:44.840 But I think it's a process. It's got to be 0:33:44.880 --> 0:33:46.720 a process. There's still going to be clubs out there 0:33:46.760 --> 0:33:49.240 that want it, that want it green, and it's not 0:33:49.360 --> 0:33:52.240 necessarily have to be soft. You can keep it green 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:55.480 and keep it firm, but they just they don't want 0:33:55.520 --> 0:33:58.920 to see any brown whatsoever. And and if that's what 0:33:59.120 --> 0:34:02.600 and you know, in the eighties, eighties and nineties, that's 0:34:02.600 --> 0:34:05.520 what it was, I mean, that was that was what 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.160 it was for the most part, probably ninety percent of 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:10.240 it was like that. But you had a few guys. 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:16.320 You had a few guys like Matt and Dick Batter 0:34:16.440 --> 0:34:20.560 and Pat Lucas and you know some guys that were 0:34:21.320 --> 0:34:24.759 you know, the guy at Huntington Valley in Pennsylvania. That 0:34:24.840 --> 0:34:28.120 guy is extreme, you know, he really pushes it. You know, 0:34:28.280 --> 0:34:31.400 I think was it Anderson, Scott Anderson. I can't remember 0:34:31.400 --> 0:34:34.600 his name, but that guy's been outside the box for 0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.560 a long time and they love him there for it, 0:34:37.719 --> 0:34:40.919 you know. They he's he's got that membership to buy 0:34:40.960 --> 0:34:44.120 in that we're going to spit on these fairways or 0:34:44.360 --> 0:34:44.680 you know. 0:34:45.239 --> 0:34:48.080 So when you came to Chicago, it you know, it 0:34:48.120 --> 0:34:52.120 was a much different culture of conditions. I think in 0:34:52.239 --> 0:34:55.600 speaking to all your peers that most peers, you know, 0:34:55.680 --> 0:34:59.160 consider you as the guy that started the movement towards 0:34:59.520 --> 0:35:05.480 you know, faster less trees. I love. There's a there's 0:35:05.520 --> 0:35:08.279 something on one of my Tom Doak podcasts he talks 0:35:08.280 --> 0:35:11.759 about how in Chicago in the nineties everybody had the 0:35:11.760 --> 0:35:15.840 Medina effect because they squeezed in the necks of greens 0:35:15.840 --> 0:35:18.480 and there'd be rough, you know, for five yards between 0:35:18.520 --> 0:35:21.080 bunkers because that's what Madna did, and everybody did that, 0:35:21.160 --> 0:35:24.040 and it's almost like what you've created is like, well, 0:35:24.040 --> 0:35:26.359 this is what Old Elm does, So this is what 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.160 everybody's doing. Talk about a little bit about, you know, 0:35:29.280 --> 0:35:32.239 kind of what you came into at Old Elm, and 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.680 then how you've been able to change the culture over 0:35:35.920 --> 0:35:37.560 a number of years. 0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:42.759 Well thank you for that. That's pretty nice compliment from 0:35:42.840 --> 0:35:47.840 peers and everything. But uh, when I got to Old Elm, 0:35:47.880 --> 0:35:54.160 I just I knew it could be really good. I 0:35:54.239 --> 0:35:57.160 just didn't know how good until I engulfed myself and 0:35:57.239 --> 0:35:59.759 all the architecture. And I don't even think Old Elm 0:35:59.800 --> 0:36:02.239 knew what was a cult when I got here. You know, 0:36:02.360 --> 0:36:05.719 everybody had said it was a Donald Ross And then 0:36:05.800 --> 0:36:08.600 I just got into the archives and started looking at everything, 0:36:08.640 --> 0:36:11.160 and I'm like, guys, you know, we got one of 0:36:11.200 --> 0:36:15.799 the only two cult courses in the United States. And 0:36:15.840 --> 0:36:18.360 I mean, these were conversations I had with the board 0:36:18.400 --> 0:36:21.319 and I'm like, this is this is something we can 0:36:21.360 --> 0:36:23.680 hang our hat on. This is something that can bring 0:36:23.920 --> 0:36:29.040 Old Elm. Not that we care about ratings or anything 0:36:29.160 --> 0:36:33.239 like that, but it's it's something besides the fact that 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:35.560 it was an exclusive Men's Club. 0:36:37.160 --> 0:36:41.279 It's like a uniqueness in finding the you know, kind 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:44.399 of the character and the uniqueness of each course. Because 0:36:44.400 --> 0:36:47.600 that's the beauty of golf courses and architecture is every 0:36:47.760 --> 0:36:50.040 course is so unique from the other one. 0:36:50.120 --> 0:36:52.560 That's right. That's right, and some are better than others. 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:56.239 But any superintendent that goes to his own place and 0:36:56.280 --> 0:37:01.000 can make that unique or you know, fire that diamond 0:37:01.040 --> 0:37:05.480 in the rough character or feature that's out there. I mean, 0:37:06.440 --> 0:37:09.120 you know, you could go to you know, it's like 0:37:09.400 --> 0:37:11.560 going up to Lake Geneva and he has all those 0:37:11.560 --> 0:37:15.560 little hershey drops, and you know, he's got a double 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:20.680 green and you know, he's just got some quirky cool things. 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:24.440 And he found him and he and rediscovered him. You know. 0:37:27.000 --> 0:37:31.000 I came to Old Elm and it was it was 0:37:31.120 --> 0:37:37.120 kind of a combination of I need to get rid 0:37:37.160 --> 0:37:39.200 of some trees first of all, just to grow some 0:37:39.239 --> 0:37:43.239 freaking grass, you know. I mean it was like and 0:37:43.280 --> 0:37:45.920 it was like at Windstone. I went to Windstone. It 0:37:46.040 --> 0:37:48.560 was only you know, it's belt in eighty nine or whatever, 0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:52.120 and we're mowing te's with cottonwood roots and the mower 0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:54.120 had shaved them down so much that you could just 0:37:54.200 --> 0:37:57.400 roll mow over the roots, you know. So it started 0:37:57.400 --> 0:38:00.960 at Winstone and went to Winstone and as did a 0:38:01.040 --> 0:38:04.880 thousand trees out of there just to grow grass, you know. 0:38:05.320 --> 0:38:09.920 And so that mindset came over here. And the great 0:38:09.960 --> 0:38:13.320 thing about being at Old Elm is that my GM 0:38:13.520 --> 0:38:17.080 Kevin was one hundred and fifty percent behind me, and 0:38:18.200 --> 0:38:22.560 he was all supportive and really led the way for me. 0:38:22.880 --> 0:38:26.200 You know that we really kind of really do work 0:38:26.280 --> 0:38:31.120 like a golf club should. Here is that Kevin Brett 0:38:31.120 --> 0:38:34.960 and Jason they deal with the members up there. They're 0:38:35.480 --> 0:38:39.200 they're my communication piece. I'm kind of behind the scenes 0:38:39.239 --> 0:38:42.920 doing the dirty work. They're you know, they're supposed to 0:38:43.000 --> 0:38:47.919 be polished, and I'm not always politically correct, so it's 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:50.240 probably a good thing that they deal with the members 0:38:50.280 --> 0:38:52.040 and I just go and do what they tell me 0:38:52.120 --> 0:38:55.760 to do. But we got on board as a team 0:38:56.360 --> 0:38:59.560 and explained to the board what we wanted to do. 0:38:59.600 --> 0:39:02.520 We brought out the original plan. I think Old Elms 0:39:02.520 --> 0:39:05.680 probably got one of the best archives of original drawings 0:39:05.680 --> 0:39:08.680 and everything, so it actually kind of made it pretty 0:39:08.719 --> 0:39:12.239 simple to say, this is what we're going to do, 0:39:12.440 --> 0:39:15.000 this is what Colt did, We're going to go with 0:39:15.040 --> 0:39:19.040 this because you know, we we think Colt's one of 0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:23.600 the you know, the most prominent golf archt especially overseas, 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:25.640 he's the man. He's the man overseas. 0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:26.520 That's a funny thing. 0:39:26.600 --> 0:39:28.719 I mean, you might talk about Rayner and mackenzie and 0:39:28.800 --> 0:39:32.520 McDonald here cold is Jesus over there, you know. 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:35.680 That's the funny thing is like in America he did 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:39.960 so little work, but if you look abroad, like the 0:39:40.000 --> 0:39:44.399 way he's regarded in Europe and the UK, and then 0:39:44.440 --> 0:39:47.640 you look at some of the clubs and and like 0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:51.320 he got called in to talk to at Pine Valley, 0:39:51.400 --> 0:39:53.520 like to consult the Pine Valley, like you know, the 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:57.320 greatest architects in American golf working at Pine Valley, and they, 0:39:57.360 --> 0:39:59.720 you know, bring in Colt. You know, he put together 0:40:00.120 --> 0:40:02.560 he made Royal County down what it is like it 0:40:02.600 --> 0:40:04.880 was a mess before he got you know. And and 0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:09.000 just like I think his his his work goes so 0:40:09.200 --> 0:40:12.360 under the radar in America and that people don't understand. 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:15.080 People just don't know because not very many people have 0:40:15.120 --> 0:40:17.200 gone over and played his courses over there. That was 0:40:17.239 --> 0:40:19.680 a great thing. I was here a year or two 0:40:20.480 --> 0:40:23.440 and uh, Papa Daka set up a trip for us 0:40:23.480 --> 0:40:29.080 to go to Europe, England, and that was that was 0:40:29.120 --> 0:40:32.319 my game changer. That's where I knew what I had 0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.279 to do. When I came back. After I went and 0:40:34.320 --> 0:40:39.000 played all you know Sunningdale, Swinley, you know Rye, there 0:40:39.080 --> 0:40:42.120 was just such you know, Royal Saint George, Saint George's Hill. 0:40:42.800 --> 0:40:45.640 I mean I got to play so many awesome golf 0:40:45.680 --> 0:40:49.440 courses there, but it was just so natural and rugged, 0:40:49.920 --> 0:40:53.120 and it was such a you know Colt was There 0:40:53.160 --> 0:40:58.000 wasn't any templates. Yeah, I mean you could. Every course 0:40:58.520 --> 0:41:01.479 looks different. There's very few courses that have the same 0:41:01.640 --> 0:41:04.120 type of hole. I mean he's got you go to 0:41:04.320 --> 0:41:09.840 Rye and in Royal Saint George's it's links, it's pot 0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:13.279 bunkers deep, and then you go to Swinley and it's 0:41:13.360 --> 0:41:18.000 just like torn bunker faces Heather. I mean, he just 0:41:18.080 --> 0:41:22.319 took the natural environment and the plant material and made 0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:26.600 his golf courses. His greens aren't big and bold by 0:41:26.640 --> 0:41:28.880 any means. You know that he doesn't need it. I 0:41:28.880 --> 0:41:31.920 mean they're so I mean I can take you out 0:41:31.920 --> 0:41:34.040 here at Old Elm, the number three and be like 0:41:34.360 --> 0:41:36.640 this could be one of my favorite greens I've ever 0:41:36.680 --> 0:41:38.680 worked on, and you'll be like, you look at the 0:41:38.719 --> 0:41:41.040 tea and you're like, it's not much like Number eleven 0:41:41.600 --> 0:41:44.920 is the sneakiest green in Chicago, I think, you know, 0:41:45.080 --> 0:41:49.000 but it's flat. And that's that's what I think is 0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:52.160 really cool about him. Not that I don't you know, 0:41:52.280 --> 0:41:55.440 go to Chicago Golf and think those are probably some 0:41:55.520 --> 0:41:59.200 of the best green complexes in the world, but they're 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:04.120 big bold. He was more of kind of a small 0:42:04.120 --> 0:42:06.920 and dainty kind of guy around the greens, but was 0:42:07.040 --> 0:42:10.040 just magical the way he blended him in and he 0:42:10.760 --> 0:42:14.520 wanted it short and tight around the greens. You know, 0:42:14.680 --> 0:42:21.759 up to the greens and you know it going over 0:42:21.760 --> 0:42:25.680 there and coming back it gave and having the original drawings, 0:42:25.800 --> 0:42:27.960 it was a pretty bulletproof plan to go to the 0:42:28.000 --> 0:42:30.120 members and say it was according to the plan, this 0:42:30.239 --> 0:42:32.080 is what we're going to do. They can never come 0:42:32.120 --> 0:42:34.040 back at me with it, like why'd you do that? 0:42:34.040 --> 0:42:36.960 Why'd you get now? I think every superintent I'll tell 0:42:37.000 --> 0:42:40.160 you that you're going to have tree hugging members that 0:42:40.760 --> 0:42:43.480 I think you're killing their kids when you cut down trees. 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:50.720 But more unlikely those trees were not there originally, and 0:42:51.719 --> 0:42:55.600 you and I both know that forties, fifties, sixties, seventies 0:42:55.760 --> 0:42:58.480 there was a movement to not see one hole to 0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:02.680 the other and have a tree corridor, probably thanks to USGA. 0:43:02.840 --> 0:43:08.160 Sorry but uh you know the uh it was. And 0:43:08.320 --> 0:43:11.239 but you know what, it's just like everything else, those 0:43:11.239 --> 0:43:13.440 are t you know, Well, that's the thing is that 0:43:13.480 --> 0:43:16.120 it's just like hairbands in the eighties and nineties, you 0:43:16.120 --> 0:43:18.040 know you had hair bands. That was a fad. 0:43:18.239 --> 0:43:20.839 Well J BLOSEI once I was walking around with him 0:43:21.120 --> 0:43:25.040 at a course and he was talking about how you know, 0:43:25.360 --> 0:43:28.680 it coincides with like house architecture. If you go into 0:43:28.680 --> 0:43:30.719 a house that was built in the sixties, all the 0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:33.480 rooms are closed off, but if you go into house now, 0:43:33.760 --> 0:43:37.279 they're like open floor plans flowing into one another. Just 0:43:37.360 --> 0:43:39.480 like a golf course where you know, you're playing a 0:43:39.520 --> 0:43:42.080 tree lined like you're on that hole and you see 0:43:42.080 --> 0:43:45.360 nobody else. That's where you are. But now you you know, 0:43:45.440 --> 0:43:48.680 like the really great restored courses, you get out there 0:43:48.920 --> 0:43:51.680 and you just see everything unfolding. You see, and I 0:43:51.680 --> 0:43:53.880 think that's part of the psychology of the design, is 0:43:53.920 --> 0:43:56.960 like where you're playing one hole and you're looking across 0:43:57.000 --> 0:44:00.160 at what's you know, four holes ahead, you're thinking, you're 0:44:00.000 --> 0:44:03.600 already thinking about, oh man, look at that green, like 0:44:04.120 --> 0:44:06.440 it's going to be that pins tough spot, you know. 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:09.800 I think it's part of competition too. I think it's good. 0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:11.520 You know, there was a you know, back in the 0:44:11.640 --> 0:44:15.200 day you play golf as competitive, you know, and it 0:44:15.280 --> 0:44:17.640 was good to see guys from hold to hole what 0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.279 they were doing and kind of ras them a little bit. 0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:25.040 I think it's great for golf, you know. And I 0:44:25.080 --> 0:44:28.759 mean the perfect example. Probably my favorite golf course, one 0:44:28.800 --> 0:44:32.120 of my top three is Pine Valley, one of the 0:44:32.480 --> 0:44:34.840 probably one of the best golf courses in the world. 0:44:35.600 --> 0:44:38.000 And there wasn't hardly any trees there when it started, 0:44:38.320 --> 0:44:40.919 and now they're going back to taking a lot of those. 0:44:41.120 --> 0:44:43.040 You know, when I played it, there was a lot 0:44:43.080 --> 0:44:46.920 of trees and it was almost hold a hole, you know. 0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:50.040 But it's still unbelievable, don't get me wrong. But now 0:44:50.640 --> 0:44:52.640 to be able to sit up there and see that 0:44:52.760 --> 0:44:57.640 place in the natural landscape, I just it's so simple, 0:44:57.960 --> 0:44:59.040 but it's so right. 0:45:00.040 --> 0:45:02.200 I saw a picture of like that, the par three. 0:45:02.360 --> 0:45:05.560 It's a long par three. I can't remember what hole, 0:45:05.840 --> 0:45:10.600 but you know it's got. It was all tree riddled 0:45:10.640 --> 0:45:12.720 right around it, and it was like you're hitting into 0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:16.800 this this green that looks, you know, pretty inviting because 0:45:16.800 --> 0:45:19.399 of the trees. But then they took all the trees out, 0:45:19.520 --> 0:45:22.200 exposed all the sand around it, and then the tree 0:45:22.280 --> 0:45:26.000 looks the greens look so small. Oh yeah, And it 0:45:26.040 --> 0:45:29.400 makes the shot psychologically so much more difficult, not to 0:45:29.520 --> 0:45:32.680 mention the wind and the airflow, and it had to 0:45:32.719 --> 0:45:34.440 help with the greens condition. 0:45:34.239 --> 0:45:37.560 Like, oh, I think, I think all the tree work 0:45:37.640 --> 0:45:40.120 that I tell guys that, they asked me, well, how'd 0:45:40.160 --> 0:45:43.200 you get started? I said, well, I took the green complexes. 0:45:43.239 --> 0:45:46.200 I said, we've got to get air movement around greens. 0:45:46.280 --> 0:45:48.600 And at the time, we had bent a little bit 0:45:48.600 --> 0:45:51.080 of bent and poet greens and they were fantastic. And 0:45:52.239 --> 0:45:56.040 when we had that winter in twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen, 0:45:56.080 --> 0:45:58.640 a lot of the greens just didn't make it very good. 0:45:58.680 --> 0:46:03.080 And that's when we decided to gas and grass the 0:46:03.120 --> 0:46:06.239 greens here. But I can tell you this, with this 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:09.960 newer bents, you really need full sun almost all day, 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:13.360 especially in the morning. And that's where I tell guys 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:14.960 that come to me and ask me, how do you 0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:17.160 get started? You know, how do I get started with 0:46:17.239 --> 0:46:21.160 the membership? That's just you know, tough and doesn't want 0:46:21.160 --> 0:46:24.000 to hear anything about it. And you can do all 0:46:24.080 --> 0:46:28.640 that arbor calm stuff and was waste thousands of dollars 0:46:28.680 --> 0:46:30.600 on it, or you can just have common sense and 0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:32.920 go out there at nine o'clock and if the shit's 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.360 in the shade, you know, you need to cut down. 0:46:35.960 --> 0:46:37.360 I mean, we have so many oaks. 0:46:37.680 --> 0:46:37.960 I mean. 0:46:37.960 --> 0:46:41.720 It was kind of a joke with our board was, guys, 0:46:41.760 --> 0:46:46.080 if I've got nuts on the greens, you know from 0:46:46.120 --> 0:46:50.000 the acorns, I think the tree is too close, you know, 0:46:50.440 --> 0:46:53.759 and you know what, those guys laugh. But then they 0:46:53.840 --> 0:46:55.520 chewed on that for a while and he's like, man, 0:46:55.560 --> 0:46:58.640 he's right, he goes, we got to go clean those 0:46:58.719 --> 0:47:01.120 nuts off on Saturdays and Sundays in the fall and 0:47:01.160 --> 0:47:04.160 it drives the snuts. Yeah, well yeah, it's because the 0:47:04.239 --> 0:47:06.840 damn trees too damn close to the green guys. You know, 0:47:06.880 --> 0:47:08.640 I don't care if it's one hundred years old and 0:47:08.680 --> 0:47:12.399 it looks great, you gotta cut it down. I mean, 0:47:12.560 --> 0:47:16.520 it was just it so it kind of got comical, 0:47:16.880 --> 0:47:17.120 you know. 0:47:17.520 --> 0:47:19.760 So it's I think that's a great piece of advice, 0:47:19.880 --> 0:47:24.319 is I think where so many people and I'm like 0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:27.480 guilty of it myself. I remember I was a member 0:47:27.480 --> 0:47:30.080 of a club, and like I started focusing on like 0:47:30.160 --> 0:47:32.640 the trees I knew I hated the most, and they were, 0:47:32.719 --> 0:47:35.040 but they were also the trees that members loved the 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:38.640 most because there were controversial ones that were like greatly 0:47:38.680 --> 0:47:42.120 impacting the intended strategy the whole, but focusing on the 0:47:42.160 --> 0:47:47.360 functionality and the ones that like are dependent on grass growth. 0:47:47.760 --> 0:47:49.040 Oh yeah, like it. 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:52.680 Where you have a functional thing that people can understand, 0:47:52.680 --> 0:47:55.799 like there's no sun, get this tree out so we 0:47:55.840 --> 0:47:58.640 can grow grass and you can have a better putting surface. 0:47:59.080 --> 0:48:02.720 That's that's I feel like that's where so many people 0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:06.720 go wrong. And this Andy, it almost starts more controversy. 0:48:07.040 --> 0:48:10.400 Andy, you can't put on dirt, buddy, you know. And 0:48:11.680 --> 0:48:14.480 I'll go to so many places and they'll have one 0:48:14.600 --> 0:48:18.160 or two grains that they've got the back left or 0:48:18.960 --> 0:48:21.719 you know, it's been in the shade all year. It 0:48:21.760 --> 0:48:26.040 looks like shit. And it's not Superintendent's fault because he's 0:48:26.080 --> 0:48:30.520 been begging to get that tree down. But mister and 0:48:30.560 --> 0:48:35.239 missus havishammer can't cut that down? Oh God, can't cut 0:48:35.280 --> 0:48:37.520 that down? Well, what you want to put on dirt? 0:48:38.440 --> 0:48:43.520 You know it. It's not a bad thing to cut 0:48:43.600 --> 0:48:47.839 a tree down to allow turf to grow. Because guys, 0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:52.399 you know, all superintendents I know are agronomous and their 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:58.920 job they're paid to give extreme high end quality putting surfaces, 0:48:59.239 --> 0:49:08.880 rough fair ways and anything that minimizes their opportunity to 0:49:08.920 --> 0:49:10.960 succeed to that. You got to get rid of that. 0:49:11.320 --> 0:49:13.920 You got to get rid of the problem. It's a 0:49:14.040 --> 0:49:20.600 very simple, you know, cause and effect. And we had 0:49:20.640 --> 0:49:24.360 a tree left of ten green, left of seven green, 0:49:25.239 --> 0:49:27.080 and they were probably two of the biggest trees on 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:32.680 the golf course. But even when I had poe growing 0:49:32.760 --> 0:49:36.640 in the shade there, we struggled a little bit with them. 0:49:36.880 --> 0:49:39.640 They just just you know, tree roots in the greens, 0:49:40.520 --> 0:49:46.319 you know. And once I once I got one of 0:49:46.320 --> 0:49:49.719 those down and they saw the difference within a year, 0:49:50.840 --> 0:49:54.239 it was like, Okay, this kid is actually telling us 0:49:54.239 --> 0:49:57.239 what we need to know. Okay, we's got he's got 0:49:57.239 --> 0:49:59.520 street cred. Now we get it. 0:50:00.120 --> 0:50:03.919 So the besides the tree removal, one of the big 0:50:03.960 --> 0:50:06.800 things that you've done here is like, is the short 0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:11.239 grass expansion, the you know, cutting the rough down to 0:50:11.400 --> 0:50:13.440 shorter to get the ball roll. You have a you 0:50:13.480 --> 0:50:17.800 have a much older membership than most most clubs. You know, 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:22.319 how how have you been able to effectively expand fairways 0:50:23.560 --> 0:50:29.279 without just killing a budget, because that's always the pushback 0:50:29.360 --> 0:50:30.680 that yeah, that's. 0:50:30.320 --> 0:50:38.439 It's we we're lucky, we have enough room. And we've 0:50:38.480 --> 0:50:41.040 had about an acre nursery that we pretty much have, 0:50:41.920 --> 0:50:46.040 you know, taken and flipped once or twice a year 0:50:46.080 --> 0:50:51.080 for the last six years. We took fronts of fairways 0:50:51.080 --> 0:50:56.319 that weren't necessary and flipped and flopped side from here 0:50:56.640 --> 0:51:03.000 to there. You know, our fairways are enormous and they 0:51:03.040 --> 0:51:07.719 were originally so when I got here just scalping a 0:51:07.719 --> 0:51:10.240 lot of them down had bent and pohen the rough 0:51:11.120 --> 0:51:13.880 and scalping them down and verifying and slit seat and 0:51:13.960 --> 0:51:18.440 dragon plug poe plugs and verticutting. And it's been a 0:51:18.480 --> 0:51:24.080 combination of probably four or five things that we've done. 0:51:24.280 --> 0:51:28.600 But my whole goal to the membership was I wanted 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:31.799 to restore the golf course for golf, for the architectural 0:51:31.920 --> 0:51:34.360 part of it, but I wanted to restore the golf 0:51:34.400 --> 0:51:40.960 course for the members because I I'm trying to lead 0:51:41.000 --> 0:51:45.279 a movement in making golf fun again. I worked at 0:51:45.280 --> 0:51:47.640 so many places where it was our goal just to 0:51:47.640 --> 0:51:49.560 make you shoot a hundred. You know, we wanted to 0:51:49.560 --> 0:51:52.680 make it as hard and tough as we could, you know, 0:51:52.800 --> 0:51:56.040 and working at you know, Wingfoot and Marion, you work 0:51:56.040 --> 0:51:58.880 at us open course, and that's what people expect. You know, 0:51:58.960 --> 0:52:01.200 I get it, But you come to hold down with 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:04.320 an older membership. Let's face it, we don't have a 0:52:04.320 --> 0:52:07.480 whole lot of We probably got ten single digit handicappers. 0:52:08.920 --> 0:52:12.520 So my goal was to come up with an idea 0:52:12.680 --> 0:52:16.280 that I could still make it a challenge for those 0:52:16.320 --> 0:52:21.080 guys that are good, but also make it more playable 0:52:21.280 --> 0:52:24.239 and enjoyable to the member that was the fifteen to 0:52:24.239 --> 0:52:31.839 twenty handicapper that was older. So by expanding all these fairways, 0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:38.000 lowering the height to cut on the rough, just by 0:52:38.120 --> 0:52:41.719 doing that, I was still that enabled me to keep 0:52:41.760 --> 0:52:45.200 the approaches in green banks really tight and the greens 0:52:45.280 --> 0:52:47.959 firm and fast, and that's what I wanted to keep 0:52:48.000 --> 0:52:50.080 because they were getting to the point where the guys 0:52:50.120 --> 0:52:53.080 are like, oh, we can't chip, can't put blah blah bah. 0:52:53.840 --> 0:52:56.360 So I said, all right, well, I'll I'll cut the 0:52:56.440 --> 0:52:59.200 rough down to a half inch three quarters of an 0:52:59.239 --> 0:53:03.839 inch step cut, and if you miss these enormous fairways, 0:53:04.320 --> 0:53:06.919 you can take out your hybrid. And you know, these 0:53:06.960 --> 0:53:09.879 guys still can play golf, but for them to get 0:53:09.880 --> 0:53:12.440 through three inch rough, they just don't have the strength 0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:18.880 and it's frustrating for him. So my thought was, I 0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:22.400 want to make the funnest golf course in the United States. 0:53:22.880 --> 0:53:26.719 How do I do that? And that's why I told Kevin, 0:53:26.800 --> 0:53:30.160 I said, you know, because Kevin's a scratch golfer, and 0:53:30.200 --> 0:53:31.760 he's like, oh, you're going to make it too easy. 0:53:31.800 --> 0:53:36.920 I said, keV, you don't hardly miss the fairways anyways. Okay, yeah, 0:53:36.960 --> 0:53:39.040 So if you're in the rough and you get to 0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:41.279 the green, you still got to chip and put on 0:53:41.400 --> 0:53:45.560 these diabolical green complexes. That's where it is. The defense 0:53:45.560 --> 0:53:48.440 of Old Elm is the greens, in the surrounds of 0:53:48.480 --> 0:53:48.960 the greens. 0:53:49.040 --> 0:53:49.960 That's the magic of it. 0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:51.880 That's the magic of Old Elm. 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:56.160 Is where what with the short ruff and everything, it's 0:53:56.200 --> 0:53:59.080 made it so much more negotiable for the average golfer. 0:53:59.320 --> 0:54:02.400 And it doesn't have anything any impact on the on 0:54:02.440 --> 0:54:06.360 the good player, because where all the challenges is finding 0:54:06.400 --> 0:54:09.000 the right angles to come into these greens that when 0:54:09.000 --> 0:54:11.680 they're going firm and fast, it's it's you know, you're 0:54:11.920 --> 0:54:14.600 you're you're just terrified hitting wedges. 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:17.000 Well and andy, that's why taking these you know people 0:54:17.040 --> 0:54:19.280 are like, this kid's nuts. You know, he's got seventy 0:54:19.320 --> 0:54:23.399 five acres of ben and he's taking his fairways out 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:26.840 to there's you know, I got like twenty acres of 0:54:26.920 --> 0:54:30.280 rough now when I used to have close to fifty sixty. 0:54:31.320 --> 0:54:36.239 And but it's brought all the angles that Colt won. 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:40.160 And now you understand why Colt did that is because 0:54:40.800 --> 0:54:44.040 you know, if I'm far left on number two now 0:54:44.040 --> 0:54:46.520 where the fairway is, it's I can actually get it 0:54:46.560 --> 0:54:48.880 on the green without it rolling off the back or 0:54:48.880 --> 0:54:50.600 to the left or the right and getting an eight. 0:54:50.680 --> 0:54:52.799 I can you know, I can get a four because 0:54:52.840 --> 0:54:55.480 that's so hard, you know, it's such a hard green 0:54:55.520 --> 0:54:59.520 to hit. But all these angles that are you know, 0:54:59.560 --> 0:55:02.279 the right four. You know, these old guys don't want 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:04.640 to go up between all those bunkers. They can bail 0:55:04.680 --> 0:55:06.640 out to the right and they've got a great angle 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:12.319 into three green. So that just kind of happened for me. 0:55:12.719 --> 0:55:16.120 Is like, and I would take keV and the members. 0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:19.000 I'm like, Okay, I know this sounds crazy, but I'm 0:55:19.040 --> 0:55:21.040 taking this fairway all the way out here like it 0:55:21.120 --> 0:55:23.719 is on the plan. But I go come over here 0:55:23.760 --> 0:55:26.440 and look at this angle. So if you're good enough 0:55:26.440 --> 0:55:29.040 to try to get your ball over on this side 0:55:29.080 --> 0:55:32.319 of the fairway, you're going to get rewarded because you're 0:55:32.320 --> 0:55:35.600 gonna have a way better opportunity, you know, almost double 0:55:35.680 --> 0:55:38.560 the area to land the ball on the green as 0:55:38.600 --> 0:55:41.040 if you played it like every Tom Dick and Harry 0:55:41.080 --> 0:55:42.680 and try to go straight up the gut. 0:55:42.960 --> 0:55:43.160 You know. 0:55:44.000 --> 0:55:49.400 So I think golfers have been it's all been about 0:55:49.400 --> 0:55:53.200 the power game and flying it as far as you can. 0:55:53.480 --> 0:55:56.000 But you know what I love that about Old Elm 0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:57.400 is you get on the tee and you feel like 0:55:57.480 --> 0:55:59.319 you can just hit it where you know you can 0:55:59.400 --> 0:56:04.040 hit it as hard as you can. But that's fun. Yeah, okay, Yeah, 0:56:04.160 --> 0:56:06.000 should you take your three wit or hit an iron? 0:56:06.080 --> 0:56:08.040 Should you hit an iron on nine and just skinny 0:56:08.080 --> 0:56:10.480 it up there and not try to go for the green? Yeah, 0:56:10.560 --> 0:56:12.480 that's probably the way you want to play it, but 0:56:12.560 --> 0:56:14.319 guys are going to take their driver and if you 0:56:14.400 --> 0:56:16.759 hit the green grate, you're rewarded, but if you miss 0:56:16.800 --> 0:56:19.480 the green, it's tough up there. Yeah, you know, So 0:56:20.280 --> 0:56:23.000 trying to bring all the clubs back in the bag 0:56:23.360 --> 0:56:26.680 to play here, trying and I can tell you this, 0:56:27.520 --> 0:56:30.560 the higher handicappers over the last five year have gone 0:56:30.680 --> 0:56:34.120 down and my better golfers have gone up. And that's 0:56:34.160 --> 0:56:39.080 a combination of doing what we've done, adding some te's 0:56:39.120 --> 0:56:43.080 for seniors, and you know, I've always tried to give 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:45.720 and take. If I take away something from you, guys, 0:56:45.840 --> 0:56:47.520 I'm going to try to give you some I'm going 0:56:47.560 --> 0:56:49.160 to try to give you a bailout area. 0:56:49.920 --> 0:56:50.160 You know. 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:54.680 So my mindset's kind of screwed up, probably and crazy, 0:56:54.760 --> 0:56:59.200 but I want to make it as I want people 0:56:59.239 --> 0:57:03.160 to come back here and bring guys back and be like, 0:57:03.440 --> 0:57:07.200 that's the funnest golf I've played in years. That's the 0:57:07.239 --> 0:57:12.359 funnest place I've played in years. And quite honestly, don't 0:57:12.440 --> 0:57:14.200 you want to come out and get a birdie or 0:57:14.200 --> 0:57:17.040 two instead of a bogie and a triple and a quad? 0:57:17.400 --> 0:57:20.040 Well? Who likes that? I think the best part about 0:57:20.080 --> 0:57:22.040 it is for the good players is that you can 0:57:22.080 --> 0:57:25.240 make a ton of birdies, but the double bogie is 0:57:25.320 --> 0:57:28.360 lurking on any shot because of the greens and the surrounds, 0:57:28.400 --> 0:57:30.439 and you give the wrong spot, you're playing ping pong. 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:35.240 You give them all this area to hit from. You 0:57:35.320 --> 0:57:38.360 can keep your greens and approaches and banks as tight 0:57:38.400 --> 0:57:42.640 and fast as you want. Now that being said, we 0:57:42.880 --> 0:57:47.160 have been, you know, judicious this year of measuring green 0:57:47.240 --> 0:57:55.840 speed and trying to find what everybody likes. And you know, 0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:58.920 we all like to get them super fast, but quite honestly, 0:57:58.960 --> 0:58:01.800 people just can't. It's it's not the putting, it's the chipping. 0:58:02.080 --> 0:58:04.480 It's the chipping. Here they chip a ball in the 0:58:04.480 --> 0:58:07.560 green and just rolls off. And that's that's just cause 0:58:07.600 --> 0:58:09.840 of the firmness and the speed. And it's not fair 0:58:09.880 --> 0:58:12.640 because you hit a good shot, you should keep the 0:58:12.640 --> 0:58:13.400 ball on the green. 0:58:13.480 --> 0:58:17.320 And the green the way the green is exactly the repellers. 0:58:17.120 --> 0:58:19.680 Now and there are army helmets. And if you roll 0:58:19.720 --> 0:58:21.800 off the green, you're not two feet off the green, 0:58:21.880 --> 0:58:26.480 you're twenty thirty feet off the green. So this type 0:58:26.480 --> 0:58:30.160 of golf course, it's a give take. Okay, I'm going 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:33.440 to give you all the fairways and all the rough 0:58:33.640 --> 0:58:38.520 to hit out of. But I still want a fair, firm, 0:58:38.720 --> 0:58:42.560 fast speed up around my greens and on the greens. 0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:44.360 So let me ask you a question. Say you're a 0:58:44.480 --> 0:58:48.560 municipal you got two hundred thousand dollars budget, you got 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:52.800 your your shoe string, you're overgrown, you've got trouble areas. 0:58:53.240 --> 0:58:57.600 How are you starting and what are you doing to 0:58:57.640 --> 0:59:01.800 stretch the budget to get you know, being maintaining somewhere 0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:05.040 like Old Elm for that, for that, that's unrealistic and 0:59:05.080 --> 0:59:07.880 it's got the municipal golfer. You want to get people 0:59:07.920 --> 0:59:10.160 around the golf course, but you want them to have fun. 0:59:10.240 --> 0:59:13.280 And I think you know, where do you start if 0:59:13.320 --> 0:59:17.240 you inherited a situation similar to Old Elm overgrown, you know, 0:59:17.400 --> 0:59:22.040 narrow fairways, small greens, but with a municipal budget. 0:59:22.120 --> 0:59:25.960 Okay, so you're at a municipality and you got a 0:59:25.960 --> 0:59:29.880 a two fifty to four hundred thousand dollars budget. So 0:59:31.520 --> 0:59:34.840 there's you. You have to be creative, you know, you 0:59:34.840 --> 0:59:37.160 have to have a superintendent that's willing to get outside 0:59:37.200 --> 0:59:40.520 the box and be creative. You got to determine what 0:59:40.600 --> 0:59:43.520 your grass type is, you know, if you have that budget, 0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:48.640 maybe you have blue grass fairways or blue rye blue 0:59:48.640 --> 0:59:54.440 fescue fairways and you don't have to spray those very much, 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:57.120 you know what I mean. And the way you mow it. 0:59:57.240 --> 0:59:59.040 You know, we mow up and down just because it's 0:59:59.080 --> 1:00:04.040 fast and it's quick as far as treework goes. Okay, 1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:05.680 what kind of trees do I have? 1:00:06.640 --> 1:00:06.720 What? 1:00:07.440 --> 1:00:09.040 You know, there's a lot of guys out there that 1:00:09.040 --> 1:00:13.080 are looking for good lumber and they'll come in and 1:00:13.240 --> 1:00:16.360 cut trees, or you drop them, they'll pick them up. 1:00:16.520 --> 1:00:19.200 You know, you you use every resource you can. You 1:00:19.320 --> 1:00:23.480 got guys that need wood for firewood. You know, it 1:00:23.640 --> 1:00:25.480 just depends on what area you are. You got to 1:00:25.520 --> 1:00:28.800 explore every option, turn over every stone that you can. 1:00:29.720 --> 1:00:32.200 That all right, I want to get rid of some trees. 1:00:32.320 --> 1:00:36.880 I don't have the budget to do it. Okay, Okay, 1:00:36.960 --> 1:00:40.680 can you burn there? You know? Can you burn? Cause 1:00:41.120 --> 1:00:43.840 you know you can buy a chainsaw and if you 1:00:43.960 --> 1:00:46.440 got to, you know, or you could rent a skid 1:00:46.480 --> 1:00:49.600 steer with forks or grappler or whatever for a certain 1:00:49.600 --> 1:00:52.480 amount of time. You got to be creative and then 1:00:52.640 --> 1:00:55.320 all right, can we You know, we were at country and 1:00:55.400 --> 1:01:00.160 we could burn. We dropped, We dropped fifty willows, those 1:01:00.880 --> 1:01:05.040 black willows in a low area, and we stack those 1:01:05.040 --> 1:01:07.880 things on top of each other. You know, let's just 1:01:07.920 --> 1:01:10.320 say it was one thousand bucks to cut that tree 1:01:10.360 --> 1:01:13.360 and haul it away. We cut them down and burn 1:01:13.440 --> 1:01:17.240 them for whatever it costs the chainsaw oil in the labor. 1:01:17.920 --> 1:01:20.240 You know, So if a fifty thousand dollars job was 1:01:20.280 --> 1:01:23.560 probably a two thousand dollars job that we just did. 1:01:23.960 --> 1:01:25.880 And we took the buffaloes and put the diesel on 1:01:25.960 --> 1:01:28.240 them and burnt the crap out of them. You know, 1:01:28.360 --> 1:01:30.480 you got to look at every option you have. Can 1:01:30.600 --> 1:01:33.080 I burn? Do I have people that are Do I 1:01:33.120 --> 1:01:37.200 have some lumber? Actually, guys will pay you, give you 1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:39.440 money to come in and cut it down and take 1:01:39.520 --> 1:01:42.040 You got black walnut, you got white oak? You know, 1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:44.720 what do you have? Do you have some good maple? 1:01:45.080 --> 1:01:45.240 You know? 1:01:45.320 --> 1:01:48.040 Do you have cherry? Guys will come and get that. 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:50.440 And okay, if they are not going to pay you, 1:01:50.520 --> 1:01:52.360 or they're not going to do it, if you cut 1:01:52.400 --> 1:01:54.960 it down, make them come and pick it up. You know, 1:01:55.200 --> 1:01:58.360 there's there's where I would start. As far as trees go, 1:01:59.000 --> 1:02:04.240 I would I would try to grow grass at a municipality, 1:02:04.280 --> 1:02:06.520 that's going to give me the best opportunity to give 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:11.360 good conditions on a shoe string budget. If you have 1:02:11.640 --> 1:02:15.480 bent grass at those places and that's what they like, 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:18.960 then removing some of those trees, it's just going to 1:02:19.000 --> 1:02:21.800 improve the turf quality. It's going to help with air movement, 1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:25.480 less disease, you know, better roof structure, all that garbage. 1:02:26.080 --> 1:02:29.000 But you know, you got to decide, you know, the 1:02:29.320 --> 1:02:31.919 municipality's got to decide. All right, we got bent grass 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:37.320 fairways or we got rye bluegrass fairways. You know, you 1:02:37.360 --> 1:02:40.240 spend the money on the greens because that's where it's at. Everybody. 1:02:40.360 --> 1:02:43.360 Nobody's going to talk about fairways or teas. If you've 1:02:43.400 --> 1:02:46.280 got great greens, they're going to think your golf courses fantastic, 1:02:46.840 --> 1:02:48.960 you know what I mean. And that's where you score. 1:02:49.680 --> 1:02:52.520 So spend the money on the greens. Get the greens 1:02:52.560 --> 1:02:56.120 back out to where they were. Usually those places don't 1:02:56.160 --> 1:03:00.640 have great irrigations, but the municipalities are open, ok with 1:03:00.920 --> 1:03:06.000 capital and infrastructure. Yeah okay, So you know again it's 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:10.439 an outside the box educational process. Hey, this is this 1:03:10.480 --> 1:03:12.280 is what I can give you, and you know, you 1:03:12.360 --> 1:03:14.080 take a few holes and you show them what you 1:03:14.120 --> 1:03:17.520 can do once. Once you give them caviare they don't 1:03:17.520 --> 1:03:20.120 want to go back to sardines, you know what I mean? 1:03:20.840 --> 1:03:24.360 People people like good ship. They don't want to they 1:03:24.360 --> 1:03:27.000 don't want to eat bad ship. You know, do you 1:03:27.040 --> 1:03:29.520 want to eat a flair? You want a McDonald's cheeseburger. 1:03:29.680 --> 1:03:34.120 I mean, they're going to want the steak. You give 1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:36.280 them a steak on two or three holes, guess what 1:03:36.320 --> 1:03:40.080 those other fifteen tastes? Like? Shit, I'm going to go 1:03:40.160 --> 1:03:42.439 back to those three holes. What's it going to take? 1:03:42.600 --> 1:03:45.280 What what can we do to help you? And then 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:48.560 and then then the ball's rolling, The ball's rolling, You're. 1:03:48.440 --> 1:03:53.000 Gonna That's one of my biggest gripes with municipal goth is, like, 1:03:53.840 --> 1:03:56.800 is the fact that so many people think like, oh, 1:03:56.880 --> 1:03:58.680 this is the way it is, and this is the 1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.400 way it has to be in we're a twenty five 1:04:01.440 --> 1:04:03.320 dollars course, and we're always going to be a twenty 1:04:03.320 --> 1:04:05.440 five dollar course. It's like, you know, if you do 1:04:05.560 --> 1:04:07.480 a little bit of work, you can be a thirty 1:04:07.480 --> 1:04:09.400 five dollars course. And then all of a sudden, like 1:04:09.720 --> 1:04:12.760 you just bumped your revenue up and like, and you're 1:04:12.800 --> 1:04:14.360 gonna get people around faster. 1:04:14.680 --> 1:04:16.560 It's all about rounds, you know. 1:04:17.080 --> 1:04:18.520 For balls. 1:04:18.560 --> 1:04:22.120 Well, that's I gotta tell you. My guys hated looking 1:04:22.160 --> 1:04:24.520 for balls. I'm at a private club. My guys they 1:04:24.600 --> 1:04:27.960 got caddies. They hated looking for balls. Speeds up rounds. 1:04:29.320 --> 1:04:32.160 There's nothing worse than looking for golf balls. No, that's 1:04:32.640 --> 1:04:34.000 maybe the worst part of golf. 1:04:34.400 --> 1:04:38.360 It's it's a guys don't they're expensive, guys don't want 1:04:38.400 --> 1:04:39.120 to lose them. 1:04:39.480 --> 1:04:39.600 You know. 1:04:39.720 --> 1:04:44.640 That's where the short mow grass speeds up, play, speeds 1:04:44.720 --> 1:04:48.000 up rounds. It just makes golf a lot more funner. 1:04:48.360 --> 1:04:50.919 I mean, if you're two hundred yards out and you're 1:04:50.960 --> 1:04:54.520 in like step cut, you feel confident that you can 1:04:54.560 --> 1:04:56.880 get that ball to the green. Ye, if you're in 1:04:57.000 --> 1:05:02.920 three inch four inch rough, that shot is impossible. Puckering 1:05:03.000 --> 1:05:06.040 your butt, you know, you're like, I got no you know, 1:05:06.240 --> 1:05:08.000 I'm just going to try to snug it up there 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:10.520 the approach because I'm not gonna might get there. 1:05:10.880 --> 1:05:13.600 So you've worked with Drew Rogers and Dave's inking here. 1:05:13.920 --> 1:05:16.120 You know what would have been the things that you 1:05:16.400 --> 1:05:20.560 have really helped with that relationship and made it a success. 1:05:21.640 --> 1:05:27.080 Uh, their their hands on. You know, Drew is as 1:05:27.120 --> 1:05:30.120 good as they come working with soups. You know, he 1:05:30.120 --> 1:05:35.440 he listens to superintendents, and I think Dave's you know, 1:05:35.600 --> 1:05:40.600 his architectural skills and shaping skills are just extraordinary, you know, 1:05:42.760 --> 1:05:46.640 but working with those guys. I've known Drew a long 1:05:46.680 --> 1:05:49.920 time because we did old Stone together and that's where 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.720 I met Drew and he's he's from Ohio and so 1:05:53.760 --> 1:05:57.919 we go way back. But we went out and met 1:05:58.040 --> 1:06:00.520 Dave out at Bandon when he was doing the short 1:06:00.560 --> 1:06:04.880 course out there, and just love the guy and knew 1:06:04.920 --> 1:06:06.960 he'd be a part of the team. And it was 1:06:07.080 --> 1:06:11.600 really a team effort, you know. It was Kevin and 1:06:11.960 --> 1:06:14.680 old Elm getting on board and just kind of letting 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:21.440 Dave and Drew do their thing. And the luxury they 1:06:21.480 --> 1:06:25.160 had was I had been in construction superintendent, so my 1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:28.520 whole staff was we gave them as many people as 1:06:28.560 --> 1:06:31.840 they wanted when they were here. And I think that's 1:06:31.880 --> 1:06:35.240 why it was so successful is we really didn't hire 1:06:35.280 --> 1:06:43.320 anything out, so we kind of were able to go 1:06:43.360 --> 1:06:47.320 in the field and just do it and then go 1:06:47.400 --> 1:06:49.960 back and look at it and change it. And there 1:06:50.000 --> 1:06:53.600 was never any like drawings or anything written up. We 1:06:53.760 --> 1:06:56.120 just did everything in the field and if we liked it, 1:06:56.160 --> 1:06:58.040 we kept it, and if we didn't, we changed it 1:06:58.160 --> 1:07:02.560 made it better. And that's what's really great about that 1:07:02.680 --> 1:07:06.160 kind of architecture and working with guys like that is 1:07:06.800 --> 1:07:09.160 and being able to do it in the field, you know, 1:07:09.960 --> 1:07:13.200 because we've done all of our stuff here without ever closing. 1:07:13.440 --> 1:07:16.920 So the members have had construction stuff, but we usually 1:07:17.000 --> 1:07:18.600 wait till the end of the year and do it 1:07:18.640 --> 1:07:22.880 in the spring when they're gone. But even doing the greens, 1:07:22.920 --> 1:07:25.400 we had temporary greens and the guys could play the course. 1:07:25.440 --> 1:07:27.520 So all of our work that's been done here, we've 1:07:27.560 --> 1:07:31.240 never closed the course for one day. So we've done 1:07:31.280 --> 1:07:36.440 basically a total restoration of a golf course that's the bolts, 1:07:36.480 --> 1:07:37.400 without closing. 1:07:37.800 --> 1:07:40.360 And how many years has it been, you know. 1:07:40.520 --> 1:07:43.160 I got here in two thousand and nine and that's 1:07:43.200 --> 1:07:48.640 when we started basically the tree work and then got 1:07:48.640 --> 1:07:51.560 a plan together for new irrigation. The irrigation was thirty 1:07:51.640 --> 1:07:55.040 years old and it needed to be done. That was 1:07:55.080 --> 1:08:00.280 the first really wave of getting things done. We did 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:03.080 the irrigation, that's when we got that was the first 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:06.280 round of trying to bring the fairways out a little bit, 1:08:07.440 --> 1:08:11.200 like to make the bunkers make sense. You know, at 1:08:11.200 --> 1:08:15.120 that time, I never thought they would go for what 1:08:15.240 --> 1:08:18.320 we have now with the bent everywhere. I just thought, 1:08:18.400 --> 1:08:22.000 oh god, these guys will never I go. One, I 1:08:22.000 --> 1:08:24.760 can't afford to maintain it. Two They're going to think 1:08:24.800 --> 1:08:28.120 I'm crazy. So we did one round and then we 1:08:28.160 --> 1:08:31.479 did the irrigation where the grass lines were, and Drew 1:08:31.520 --> 1:08:35.479 came out and helped us with that. And then you know, 1:08:35.520 --> 1:08:38.559 a couple of years later it was like, guys, the 1:08:38.600 --> 1:08:42.360 bunkers were not good, and I said, we need to 1:08:42.400 --> 1:08:48.960 do the bunkers. But I said, we can't do the bunkers, 1:08:49.200 --> 1:08:54.200 just stripped aside, put drainings, put sand in. We need 1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:57.440 to do what Colt said on the plan, torn bunker faces, 1:08:58.200 --> 1:09:01.519 because that's to me, that's what put Old Elm on 1:09:01.560 --> 1:09:05.240 the map was was, you know, not only taking the 1:09:05.280 --> 1:09:10.280 fairways out, but changing the bunker complex. The aesthetics was huge. 1:09:10.439 --> 1:09:13.400 Having grown up, you know, and played this course when 1:09:13.439 --> 1:09:16.360 I was in high school and and then you know, 1:09:16.479 --> 1:09:21.040 having grown up like in the area, like it's funny. 1:09:21.040 --> 1:09:23.240 I was standing on the first tea this year, and 1:09:23.320 --> 1:09:26.240 I looked out and I felt like I was like 1:09:26.280 --> 1:09:30.240 in England, but like the only thing that reminded me 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:33.080 that I wasn't was like the same big power lines 1:09:33.080 --> 1:09:35.280 that I've stared at my whole life, Like out in 1:09:35.360 --> 1:09:37.840 the distance. It's like, yeah, if those weren't there, I 1:09:37.840 --> 1:09:39.839 would have felt like I was in a completely different, 1:09:40.280 --> 1:09:41.519 you know, part of the country then. 1:09:41.640 --> 1:09:43.920 US, because England doesn't have electric you know, you got 1:09:43.920 --> 1:09:49.599 that special out, you know. And I'd always say, I'm like, Andy, 1:09:49.640 --> 1:09:51.400 how much money you think we have. I'm not gonna 1:09:51.439 --> 1:09:53.240 get those lines buried anytime soon. 1:09:53.360 --> 1:09:56.880 But you shut down, like shut that down, right, I 1:09:57.240 --> 1:10:01.320 shut that, Yeah, I shut that down right away. But 1:10:01.439 --> 1:10:04.280 and that's you know, our goal too, was to I 1:10:04.320 --> 1:10:06.719 wanted you to feel like it's one hundred years old, 1:10:07.320 --> 1:10:10.400 you know. I wanted the speeds and the conditioning to 1:10:10.439 --> 1:10:14.320 be of the you know, twenty twenty twenty eighteen. But 1:10:14.600 --> 1:10:16.320 I want you to come out the old Elm and 1:10:16.360 --> 1:10:20.200 be like, God, I feel like, you know, the coolest 1:10:20.240 --> 1:10:23.559 thing I've had really a couple of our tough old 1:10:23.680 --> 1:10:27.320 members and we got those old school ball washers and 1:10:27.640 --> 1:10:32.200 they came out and he was like, I haven't seen 1:10:32.240 --> 1:10:35.360 one of these since my dad and I played here 1:10:36.280 --> 1:10:41.280 fifty years ago. I feel like I'm playing with my dad. 1:10:41.400 --> 1:10:44.920 To me, that was one of the coolest compliments I 1:10:45.000 --> 1:10:48.400 ever got, and it was from one of my toughest members, 1:10:49.240 --> 1:10:55.680 Grummy Grum House, and but he was like he you know, 1:10:55.800 --> 1:10:58.800 he's sitting there and wash his boss. He's like, I 1:10:58.840 --> 1:11:02.040 feel like I'm playing with my dad. You know, I 1:11:02.080 --> 1:11:04.719 haven't seen this since I was playing with my dad. 1:11:05.400 --> 1:11:07.840 And that just hit me. And then that was when 1:11:07.880 --> 1:11:11.439 I wanted to get all the little divot buckets back 1:11:11.520 --> 1:11:15.120 and you know, make the flags old, do our own team. 1:11:15.240 --> 1:11:18.400 You know, it's I think Gil said it best, is 1:11:19.160 --> 1:11:22.880 it's about the golfing experience from start to finish. Yeah, 1:11:23.320 --> 1:11:27.320 it's not just the grass anymore. It's it's all those 1:11:27.439 --> 1:11:30.479 little anywhere where you can pick up a nugget, anywhere 1:11:30.520 --> 1:11:34.800 where you can get something different than everybody else, you know, 1:11:34.680 --> 1:11:38.760 you know you talk about trailblazing. That to me, ourcessories 1:11:38.880 --> 1:11:41.639 is something that a lot of guys have been like, 1:11:41.800 --> 1:11:43.799 I mean, I can't tell you how many calls I get. 1:11:44.200 --> 1:11:46.599 Where did you get that? How did you do that? 1:11:46.800 --> 1:11:50.120 You know, from a cesory standpoint, But I think it's 1:11:50.200 --> 1:11:54.920 it starts. That's part of the experience. Is like, how 1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:58.400 can you make your golf course totally unique? Talk about 1:11:58.439 --> 1:12:02.240 a municipality. You could. You could make your own wooden 1:12:02.320 --> 1:12:05.639 tee markers and make them special with your logo or something. 1:12:05.680 --> 1:12:08.000 And you can do that cheap and it's different and 1:12:08.080 --> 1:12:11.479 it's unique. It's not just a painted white ball out 1:12:11.479 --> 1:12:14.240 on the tee. Yeah, you can. You can slab some 1:12:14.360 --> 1:12:17.320 of that lumber and make a natural bench. You got 1:12:17.320 --> 1:12:18.800 a municipality for free. 1:12:19.160 --> 1:12:22.240 And that's the thing. To market a brand, you need 1:12:22.280 --> 1:12:25.479 to have a brand and an identity, and that's those 1:12:25.560 --> 1:12:29.240 little things help build your identity. And like, you know, 1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:32.439 it's something that people talk about. You know, the more 1:12:32.479 --> 1:12:35.639 you can get people talking about what you have anywhere 1:12:35.680 --> 1:12:39.240 on your course or anything about your course is the better. 1:12:39.800 --> 1:12:44.120 It Just like it helps you market. 1:12:42.600 --> 1:12:47.760 Wooden baskets on my driving range. Cool wooden baskets. You 1:12:47.840 --> 1:12:50.120 thought you thought I hung the moon? You know, these 1:12:50.320 --> 1:12:53.760 they were like where'd you get those baskets? But you 1:12:53.800 --> 1:12:56.480 could go to an apple orchard if you're a municipality 1:12:56.520 --> 1:12:59.680 and go get old apple baskets, or you gotta get 1:12:59.680 --> 1:13:00.639 out side the box. 1:13:00.640 --> 1:13:03.160 You could go to like a rummage sale probably and 1:13:03.160 --> 1:13:03.559 got them. 1:13:03.640 --> 1:13:06.800 I just saw online our our trash cans are old 1:13:06.840 --> 1:13:10.679 bourbon barrels. I just saw online where place in Columbus 1:13:10.720 --> 1:13:13.639 was getting away for free. You know, you you just 1:13:13.720 --> 1:13:15.280 gotta you gotta be. 1:13:17.000 --> 1:13:17.479 Creative. 1:13:17.560 --> 1:13:20.800 You gotta be creative, and you gotta be advantageous. You 1:13:20.880 --> 1:13:24.040 gotta you gotta find all those things. There's you know 1:13:24.120 --> 1:13:27.760 what I mean. When I started, wasn't any internet. You know, 1:13:28.240 --> 1:13:31.320 you didn't you couldn't find any of this garbage. 1:13:31.680 --> 1:13:31.880 You know. 1:13:32.080 --> 1:13:34.800 That's how old I am now, you know, to think 1:13:34.840 --> 1:13:38.759 about that, that's really my generations when the Internet started, 1:13:39.760 --> 1:13:43.679 and it's it's so much easier now because you got 1:13:43.720 --> 1:13:49.680 access to everything. So there's no excuse for not being creative. 1:13:50.840 --> 1:13:55.040 It's it's you've gotta you gotta dig deep and find 1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:59.000 it yourself to do it. So you you talk about municipalities, 1:13:59.520 --> 1:14:01.799 it's all on the eye of the beholder. It's whoever 1:14:01.840 --> 1:14:05.599 the guy's there. You know, if he's working hard and 1:14:05.640 --> 1:14:08.080 he's getting his guys working harder than they ever did, 1:14:08.520 --> 1:14:11.880 he's doing his job. If he's getting creative and he's 1:14:11.960 --> 1:14:16.479 making shit out of shiola, he's doing his job. He's 1:14:17.000 --> 1:14:20.000 you know, there's no excuse. You know, I've got a 1:14:20.040 --> 1:14:22.240 great budget. You know, it's easy for me to say 1:14:22.280 --> 1:14:25.200 that stuff, but I started with nothing, and that to me, 1:14:25.400 --> 1:14:27.840 that that was a huge part of my career was 1:14:27.920 --> 1:14:33.000 those early years not having anything. Yeah, and you just 1:14:33.200 --> 1:14:35.240 learn to get by with nothing. 1:14:36.240 --> 1:14:40.320 I visited this place in Philly called Jeffersonville Ross. It's 1:14:40.360 --> 1:14:44.599 an old course pus Municipal, and you know, I spent 1:14:44.720 --> 1:14:47.519 the morning with the superintendent walking around in the rain 1:14:47.640 --> 1:14:50.240 and we were just talking and he's like, you know, 1:14:50.320 --> 1:14:53.160 the nice thing is like we've done things and like 1:14:53.520 --> 1:14:56.559 they've worked out and he's like, now whenever I want 1:14:56.600 --> 1:14:59.320 to do something, they're all for it because like he's 1:14:59.320 --> 1:15:02.080 built up the tr but like they're doing forty thousand 1:15:02.160 --> 1:15:06.240 rounds a year and the course is packed, and you know, 1:15:06.439 --> 1:15:08.800 the changes he's made have worked with you know, he's 1:15:08.840 --> 1:15:11.439 worked with an architect, but you know, the small changes 1:15:11.439 --> 1:15:15.040 they've made it worked, and like they're making money and 1:15:15.040 --> 1:15:17.800 they're getting rounds and the people love it. So it's 1:15:17.840 --> 1:15:19.920 like it's a sense of pride for the for the 1:15:19.960 --> 1:15:21.120 community too well. 1:15:21.160 --> 1:15:24.439 And I you know, I'm at a private facility. But 1:15:24.439 --> 1:15:27.040 that's what I want golf to get back to. I 1:15:27.080 --> 1:15:30.639 want to get back to what I grew up doing 1:15:31.240 --> 1:15:34.240 is eighteen holes in a cart and a six pack 1:15:34.320 --> 1:15:41.040 for thirty bucks and play a good golf course that 1:15:41.040 --> 1:15:46.120 that is stimulating and fun, and the guys go out, 1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:48.439 have a great game, have a beer at the end 1:15:48.479 --> 1:15:51.799 of the round, and they love it, and the leagues 1:15:51.920 --> 1:15:55.000 come back. We've got to grow the game. How are 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:56.960 we going to grow the game? How are you going 1:15:57.000 --> 1:15:58.840 to grow the game? You got to make it fun again. 1:15:59.439 --> 1:16:01.559 You don't nobody wants to go and get beat up. 1:16:01.640 --> 1:16:05.200 We're not good enough. Even if you're a single digital handicap. 1:16:05.240 --> 1:16:07.120 You don't want to go and who likes that? 1:16:07.200 --> 1:16:08.400 You don't want to do that every day? 1:16:08.520 --> 1:16:09.920 You don't want to do that every day. 1:16:10.080 --> 1:16:14.800 Yeah, so let's uh, let's get to overrated, underrated. Wrap 1:16:14.840 --> 1:16:19.559 this up. So you got pick overrated, underrated? Okay, different topics, 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:26.000 I got you. We'll start with center line bunkers. 1:16:26.040 --> 1:16:34.160 MM underrated, need more of them? I think, yeah, I 1:16:34.200 --> 1:16:37.559 think it's I think it's a good it's a good 1:16:37.840 --> 1:16:42.599 aiming point, you know, I mean, what about championship golf? 1:16:44.640 --> 1:16:49.600 I think it's overrated. I think it's overrated. Yeah, I 1:16:49.600 --> 1:16:55.320 think it's gotten too goofy. I I think we're doing championship. 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:59.599 Are you talking US Open? If we're talking US Open, 1:16:59.840 --> 1:17:04.760 I think we've gotten a way consistency. I think day 1:17:04.800 --> 1:17:07.519 to day it's just you're not playing the same You 1:17:07.560 --> 1:17:10.120 need to play the same golf course for four days 1:17:10.120 --> 1:17:11.919 in a row if you want to get a true champion. 1:17:12.800 --> 1:17:15.639 It's it's going you know, get it too fast, then 1:17:15.640 --> 1:17:19.000 we get too slow, and then the wind, whatever kind 1:17:19.000 --> 1:17:21.559 of garbage you want to talk about, set it up 1:17:21.600 --> 1:17:24.160 the same. The wind comes up. That's part of golf. 1:17:24.280 --> 1:17:25.519 It should just be whatever it is. 1:17:25.520 --> 1:17:26.680 It's got to be consistent. 1:17:26.760 --> 1:17:29.400 I think that it's all around. The problem is the scores. 1:17:29.439 --> 1:17:32.040 It's like whatever they shoot, whatever they shoot is whatever 1:17:32.040 --> 1:17:32.479 they shoot. 1:17:32.479 --> 1:17:35.160 That's I gotta tell you. I think people like to 1:17:35.240 --> 1:17:36.439 see them score good. 1:17:36.640 --> 1:17:37.080 Yeah. 1:17:37.200 --> 1:17:39.519 I know some people are like, oh, I don't want 1:17:39.560 --> 1:17:42.120 them to break par. But you'd love to hear the 1:17:42.200 --> 1:17:46.520 roars when he's making a birdie, you know, perfect example, 1:17:46.800 --> 1:17:49.280 Tiger at bell Reeve gets on a roll. Did you hear? 1:17:49.439 --> 1:17:51.880 I mean, it's time, I get it. It's Tiger. But 1:17:52.000 --> 1:17:54.519 any of those guys that are that are pumping in 1:17:54.680 --> 1:17:57.639 Birdie's Kopka and people get going. 1:17:58.120 --> 1:18:01.240 You know, Old ELM's like a perfect example because like 1:18:01.680 --> 1:18:06.000 it's a par seventy three, but it in my mind 1:18:06.040 --> 1:18:08.120 it's like par. This is the problem with pars, Like 1:18:08.640 --> 1:18:10.920 I don't look at it as a par seventy three. 1:18:11.320 --> 1:18:13.840 I look at it as like a par sixty nine. 1:18:13.920 --> 1:18:15.720 And if I play it as a par sixty nine, 1:18:15.800 --> 1:18:19.280 like if I'm thinking about score, that's as hard of 1:18:19.400 --> 1:18:22.720 a golf course to par as there is in Chicago. 1:18:22.880 --> 1:18:24.320 Absolutely, But if you play it as. 1:18:24.200 --> 1:18:26.960 A par seventy three, you're you know, shooting under par 1:18:27.240 --> 1:18:30.160 for a scratch player isn't like that big of an achievement. 1:18:30.560 --> 1:18:32.640 And it's like that. But if you just flip it 1:18:32.880 --> 1:18:35.559 to par sixty nine, all sudden, people would be like, oh, 1:18:35.600 --> 1:18:37.599 this is this is the hardest golf course. 1:18:37.760 --> 1:18:38.880 Oh sure, you. 1:18:38.800 --> 1:18:43.599 Know, but it's that's the that's the paradigm of par. Yeah, 1:18:43.760 --> 1:18:47.040 it's so it's you know, it's like if they just 1:18:47.080 --> 1:18:49.439 made us open courses, like with the reality of the 1:18:49.479 --> 1:18:51.280 game par sixty eight. 1:18:51.400 --> 1:18:54.000 I think they need to make it consistent. I think 1:18:54.040 --> 1:18:58.479 they've gotten away too far. From that from day to day. 1:18:58.840 --> 1:19:01.639 Just keep it consistent. I know the weather changes and everything, 1:19:01.680 --> 1:19:04.479 but you got to keep it consistent. And I think 1:19:04.520 --> 1:19:07.200 people like to see people score. I know there's guys 1:19:07.200 --> 1:19:10.839 that say, oh god, they didn't break part. The crowds 1:19:10.840 --> 1:19:14.360 ain't getting too excited about that. You know, we've got 1:19:14.400 --> 1:19:17.360 to grow the game, make it fun exactly. 1:19:17.880 --> 1:19:18.080 You know. 1:19:18.760 --> 1:19:23.440 So last one template. 1:19:23.080 --> 1:19:27.320 Holes, you just had to go there, didn't you. 1:19:27.439 --> 1:19:30.880 Yeah, had to get one that maybe a little uncomfortable. 1:19:31.479 --> 1:19:31.639 Uh. 1:19:36.840 --> 1:19:42.599 I think for that architect it works. Okay, I don't 1:19:42.640 --> 1:19:45.240 think it's all that great, to be honest with you, 1:19:45.400 --> 1:19:51.680 the template holes. I think for Rainer it works. But 1:19:53.200 --> 1:19:59.000 I can tell you this. I can go play certain 1:19:59.080 --> 1:20:02.519 architects horses and feel like I played one of their 1:20:02.560 --> 1:20:06.479 other courses and I don't like it. I don't like it, 1:20:06.640 --> 1:20:13.280 you know. But at the time that that was happening, 1:20:14.120 --> 1:20:17.640 I think he was probably outside the box and it 1:20:17.720 --> 1:20:21.679 made sense, you know. And they're very They're very cool, 1:20:21.720 --> 1:20:24.479 don't get me wrong. There's there's nothing like a cool 1:20:24.520 --> 1:20:29.760 punch bowl, radan or burrits. Those are all cool. I 1:20:29.920 --> 1:20:35.080 like them, but I don't know. I don't know moving 1:20:35.240 --> 1:20:39.160 forward now, if template holes would be such a good idea. Yeah, 1:20:40.360 --> 1:20:42.519 for him, he was very good at it. 1:20:42.760 --> 1:20:44.960 He also knew nothing about golf exactly. 1:20:45.000 --> 1:20:47.800 It was all engineering. It was engineering. It was an 1:20:47.880 --> 1:20:51.519 engineering I mean that was That's as close as an 1:20:51.560 --> 1:20:54.960 engineer golf course as you can get. Or those template holes. 1:20:55.320 --> 1:21:00.280 It was more about engineering and shapes golden geometrics. Yes, 1:21:00.560 --> 1:21:05.000 geometric shapes and engineering was what he based it. And 1:21:05.080 --> 1:21:08.519 it made some pretty damn spectacular golf courses. Don't get 1:21:08.520 --> 1:21:12.320 me wrong. I mean those golf courses are amazing. I 1:21:12.360 --> 1:21:14.200 don't know if you could get away with that now. 1:21:14.760 --> 1:21:18.479 Yeah, I don't think an architect could be strictly templates. No, 1:21:19.320 --> 1:21:22.080 I don't think Rayner was strictly templates because like some 1:21:22.160 --> 1:21:24.679 of his non template holes are like my favorite holes. 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:28.000 I mean what he did at Short Acres, yea. The 1:21:28.200 --> 1:21:30.880 fact that that just tells you he wasn't a golfer 1:21:31.040 --> 1:21:33.599 because he didn't put anything on the lake, you know, 1:21:33.720 --> 1:21:37.160 and what he did and take took those ravines and 1:21:37.200 --> 1:21:41.680 did that routing. That was amazing to me. You know, 1:21:42.080 --> 1:21:46.479 here you are, got got Lake Michigan. You could put 1:21:46.479 --> 1:21:50.040 some stuff over there. Now I'm going to go it's 1:21:50.200 --> 1:21:55.880 the flattest, deepest land. It's the flattest most undulated golf 1:21:55.920 --> 1:21:56.800 course I've ever seen. 1:21:57.439 --> 1:22:04.320 That routing is epic. How you just one one feature 1:22:04.920 --> 1:22:08.120 over and over and over again in so many different ways, 1:22:08.240 --> 1:22:11.719 right left over off the team, he you know, around 1:22:11.800 --> 1:22:13.840 off the on a on a second shot. 1:22:14.120 --> 1:22:17.080 I mean, I that guy. That was amazing, you know. 1:22:19.400 --> 1:22:23.000 But as you know, in Chicago's got some great template holes. 1:22:23.240 --> 1:22:26.519 I mean it's you know, they've got that real Dan 1:22:26.800 --> 1:22:30.879 is so good there. The greens in general, the greens 1:22:30.880 --> 1:22:34.840 are just diabolical, but they're you know that leads to 1:22:34.880 --> 1:22:41.400 big and bold too, geometric shapes, yeah, engineering purposes, and 1:22:41.479 --> 1:22:44.439 he gets and it worked. It worked really well for him. 1:22:44.600 --> 1:22:48.240 What you touched on with Colet earlier about the subtlety 1:22:48.439 --> 1:22:50.519 of his greens. I think that's what gets lost with 1:22:50.640 --> 1:22:54.800 Rayner is everybody stares at like the big bowld for 1:22:54.960 --> 1:22:58.479 Dan Kicker, but they miss like the little internal spines 1:22:58.520 --> 1:23:01.200 that make those greens just out of this world. And 1:23:01.240 --> 1:23:04.679 that's what here has. Like the subtlety and the small 1:23:04.760 --> 1:23:07.960 interior stuff are so much more impactful than the big 1:23:08.000 --> 1:23:11.360 bold things. But the big bold things capture everybody's eye 1:23:11.400 --> 1:23:12.400 and you know, they. 1:23:12.240 --> 1:23:15.400 Give, they give you well, and I think, you know, 1:23:15.439 --> 1:23:19.360 I just played Kingsley, and I think you did an 1:23:19.439 --> 1:23:24.760 amazing job there. But I think these this generation of 1:23:25.280 --> 1:23:29.719 architects are doing a really good combination of both. Yeah, 1:23:29.800 --> 1:23:33.719 I really do. I think these guys are inspired by 1:23:34.000 --> 1:23:36.960 the Golden Age, but they're they're taking it to another 1:23:37.080 --> 1:23:41.400 level and they're it's so good how they You know, 1:23:41.479 --> 1:23:43.800 back then you didn't tie anything in because it was 1:23:43.880 --> 1:23:46.240 just built out of the ground, you know, all these 1:23:46.280 --> 1:23:49.280 big bold pads and everything. You just pushed it up 1:23:49.320 --> 1:23:52.200 and let it fall off. That the old steam blade 1:23:52.280 --> 1:23:56.280 or whatever everybody cont you know, kind of you know, 1:23:56.520 --> 1:23:59.639 Kingsley is so good and that if you hit around 1:23:59.640 --> 1:24:01.799 the green, it's going to feed into some of those greens. 1:24:01.800 --> 1:24:05.080 And I think that's great, you know. Yeah, but he's 1:24:05.120 --> 1:24:07.320 got some of those greens. If you barely miss one 1:24:07.320 --> 1:24:12.720 way or the other, you're gone. So yeah, So I 1:24:12.760 --> 1:24:16.880 think this generation architects is really inspired by one hundred 1:24:16.920 --> 1:24:19.880 years ago by all those guys, but are doing a 1:24:19.880 --> 1:24:24.840 great combination of some boldness feature wise, and some of 1:24:24.880 --> 1:24:27.280 them are throwing some of those template holes back in 1:24:27.320 --> 1:24:31.320 there and and maybe just one and it and it works, 1:24:31.560 --> 1:24:35.040 you know, but where it fits, where it fits. 1:24:34.840 --> 1:24:38.519 Yeah, you know, it's uh yeah, it's it's it's gonna 1:24:38.560 --> 1:24:41.160 be interesting to watch the continued progression. I mean, that's 1:24:41.320 --> 1:24:43.519 one of the coolest things about architecture is you just 1:24:43.600 --> 1:24:46.439 watched it progress and you know there's no right or 1:24:46.479 --> 1:24:48.920 wrong answer and no, and there's going to be somebody 1:24:49.200 --> 1:24:51.599 in the next ten to fifteen years that comes along 1:24:51.960 --> 1:24:55.360 and does something completely different than the way everybody's doing 1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:57.800 it now, and that'll you know, there'll be a new 1:24:57.960 --> 1:25:01.800 trend for sure. So but Curtis, thanks so much for 1:25:01.880 --> 1:25:04.080 your time. It's been uh, it's been a pleasure. 1:25:04.120 --> 1:25:05.599 And uh, well thank you. 1:25:05.240 --> 1:25:08.120 You're not a social media guy, so nobody can find 1:25:08.120 --> 1:25:13.840 you that way. No, No, it's uh but uh yeah 1:25:14.040 --> 1:25:16.800 it's uh, it's been fun and uh we'll talk to 1:25:16.840 --> 1:25:17.200 you soon 1:25:17.280 --> 1:25:36.439 Okay, buddy, thank you,