1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:03,680 Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here, 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:06,320 Speaker 1: and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of 3 00:00:06,360 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election. 4 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,719 Speaker 2: We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade 5 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,720 Speaker 2: the studio ad staff, give you, guys, the best independent. 6 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 3: Coverage that is possible. 7 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 2: If you like what we're all about, it just means 8 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, 9 00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,080 Speaker 2: let's get to the show. 10 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 4: Well, good morning, welcome to Breaking Points. I kind of 11 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 4: Crystal wanted to whisper it as a sort of as 12 00:00:47,200 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 4: an attribute to Soger, but in a way that I 13 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 4: know it would really annoy him because he's screamed he's 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 4: good morning. So if I whisper it, I think maybe 15 00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 4: I'll get understood. 16 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: He's had a little more of a somber opening in 17 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: recent weeks, given the somber nature of news, and there 18 00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: is a lot to get into this morning. So we 19 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 1: have a potential potential deal on hostages, a little disputed 20 00:01:06,640 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: sort of how close they are to closing brokering that 21 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: deal would include a quote unquote humanitarian pozzle. 22 00:01:12,040 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 5: Break that down for you. 23 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 1: We also have new details Israel revealing what they claim 24 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,240 Speaker 1: to be additional evidence of Hamas's use of Al Shifa 25 00:01:19,280 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: Hospital that they say justified that attack on that hospital. 26 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:24,480 Speaker 1: So we will break that down for you as well. 27 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:28,440 Speaker 1: We also have a whole situation regarding Osama bin Laden 28 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:31,759 Speaker 1: and TikTok and zoomers and a lot of questions there 29 00:01:31,920 --> 00:01:35,000 Speaker 1: a lot of freak out about what young people are 30 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: doing on TikTok these days. 31 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 5: That should be a fun conversation. 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:41,279 Speaker 1: We've got a lot of doings with regards to Elon Musk, 33 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, the ADL banning certain speech on Twitter as well. 34 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,240 Speaker 1: Sam Altman, one of the founders of open ai, was 35 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: kicked out of that organization and now has just been 36 00:01:54,120 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: snatched up by Microsoft that open Ai had a business 37 00:01:57,440 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: relationship with and also a. 38 00:01:58,840 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 5: Funder relationship with. This is huge. 39 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: News in the AI world, so we'll break out of 40 00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,160 Speaker 1: that down for you. We've also got some major CNN 41 00:02:06,240 --> 00:02:08,919 Speaker 1: missus in terms of their Israel coverage that we want 42 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: to show you as well. And we've got a Democratic 43 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: candidate for Senate who is going to join us for 44 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: the state of Michigan who is calling on Joe Biden 45 00:02:16,080 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: to step aside because he says he cannot win in 46 00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 1: the state of Michigan, especially given his stance on Israel 47 00:02:22,480 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: and Gaza. 48 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:24,119 Speaker 5: So a lot to get into. 49 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 1: Very quickly before we jump into the news here this morning, 50 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:28,560 Speaker 1: we have a little bit of Breaking Points news, which 51 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: is that lovely holiday merch that Griffin Producer and our 52 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 1: graphics team design for you guys is available now. That 53 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: beautiful ugly sweatshirt, the wonderful Christmas or ornament, the socks, 54 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,920 Speaker 1: the coffee tumbler all available to you. And apparently we 55 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,640 Speaker 1: are running a little bit of a Black Friday discount 56 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: as well, so make sure you check those out if 57 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,840 Speaker 1: you have a chance, if you're interested. And premium subscribers 58 00:02:52,880 --> 00:02:54,640 Speaker 1: got early access to this, so if that is something 59 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:57,400 Speaker 1: you're interested in for the future, breakingpoints dot Com to 60 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,680 Speaker 1: become a premium subscriber. All right, with that out of 61 00:03:00,680 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 1: the way, let's go ahead and jump into the latest 62 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: on the news. So we do have reports of a 63 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: potential hostage deal. In fact, originally the Washington Post reported 64 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: this deal was done and dusted, and then they had 65 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: to kind of walk it back and say, oh, well, 66 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: we're still working out the details. Let's put this up 67 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,239 Speaker 1: on the screen. From the Washington Post, the headline here 68 00:03:16,520 --> 00:03:19,680 Speaker 1: US close to deal with Israel and Hamasta pause conflict, 69 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 1: free some hostages. They had to change that headline after 70 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: the US push back on the idea that this had 71 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: already been completed. So here are the details of what's 72 00:03:27,800 --> 00:03:31,119 Speaker 1: being reported in the Post. They say there is a detailed, 73 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,679 Speaker 1: six page set of written terms that would require all 74 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: parties to the conflict to freeze combat operations for at 75 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:41,720 Speaker 1: least five days, while an initial fifty or more hostages 76 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: are released in smaller batches every twenty four hours. Not 77 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,000 Speaker 1: immediately clear how many of the two hundred and thirty 78 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: nine people believed to be in captivity in Gaza would 79 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: be released under the deal. Also not clear, by the way, 80 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: whether the US citizens who are being held would be 81 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: part of that deal. They say that overhead surveillance would 82 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,960 Speaker 1: monitor movement on the ground to police the pause. The 83 00:04:00,960 --> 00:04:03,480 Speaker 1: stop and fighting is also intended to allow a significant 84 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: increase in the amount of humanitarian assistance, including fuel, to 85 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:10,520 Speaker 1: enter the besieged enclave from Egypt. After this article was 86 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: initially published, and this is what I was referring to 87 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: before National Security Council spokesperson Adrian Watson tweeted that there 88 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,440 Speaker 1: was no deal yet, but we continue to work hard 89 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 1: to get a deal. And by the way, this is interesting, Emily. 90 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: So in terms of the domestic politics in Israel, you 91 00:04:27,520 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: have very i guess you would say competing pressures on Netanyahu, who, 92 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 1: on the one hand, you have the families of hostages 93 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:36,600 Speaker 1: and you have huge public sentiment in terms of doing 94 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 1: whatever you can to return these hostages, especially the civilian 95 00:04:40,440 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: hostages who are being held right now by Hamas. 96 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 5: On the other hand, you have. 97 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: Hard right parts of his coalition who are opposed to 98 00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 1: any sort of pause in the fighting and in the 99 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: bombing campaign. So, you know, and that would be a 100 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: non starter in terms of any hostage deal if they're 101 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 1: just going to continue bombing. So the way that he is, 102 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,320 Speaker 1: the way he is framing this is, you know, for 103 00:05:02,360 --> 00:05:05,679 Speaker 1: any international support to continue, humanitarian aid is essential. Because 104 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: of that, we accept the recommendation to bring fuel into Gaza, 105 00:05:08,360 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 1: speaking about a smaller fuel deal that they've already made. 106 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,040 Speaker 1: But this is kind of the framing of you know, 107 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: in order for us to continue the bombing campaign, we've 108 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: got to maintain international legitimacy, and this kind of deal 109 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 1: would be part of that. 110 00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 4: Right, which brings us to what treata PARSI of our 111 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 4: friends with our friends at the Quincy Institute tweeted yesterday. 112 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 4: I think he tweeted this yesterday. I'm sorry, this was 113 00:05:26,839 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 4: from Friday. We have the element of treatise tweet here. 114 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,800 Speaker 4: He's saying a diplomat from a key US ally has 115 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:35,719 Speaker 4: told him that Net and Yahoo is blocking the release 116 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 4: of Israeli hostages in Gaza. Biden is well aware, but 117 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:42,440 Speaker 4: refuses to pressure not in Yahoo publicly. The diplomat says 118 00:05:42,440 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 4: Biden's unconditional support for Israel has made Net and Yahoo. Actually, 119 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 4: this part's really interesting, Crystal more obstinate and inflexible. So 120 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 4: Biden's unconditional support for Israel, according to this diplomat from 121 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 4: a key US ally conveyed this to Treatah, has actually 122 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 4: made Net and Yahoo more obstinate and inflexible. Also has 123 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 4: these immense, almost i mean untenable pressures at home, as 124 00:06:04,040 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 4: you said, to not do one thing and to really 125 00:06:07,640 --> 00:06:10,679 Speaker 4: do the other thing. I mean, it's an impossible position 126 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 4: to be in, and he's not navigating it well. 127 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 5: I would say no. 128 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: And this is what doctor Parci's tweeting here is also 129 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,320 Speaker 1: sort of publicly known. There was reporting recently, I believe 130 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:26,359 Speaker 1: in the last week that there actually was a deal 131 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: that was you know, basically already crafted that they were 132 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: ready to implement to return the hostages, which of course 133 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 1: is you know, a high priority, should be a high 134 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: priority for absolutely everyone, especially as I said, the civilians, 135 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: who you know, should be left out of this entirely. 136 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 5: They should be released immediately. 137 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:47,880 Speaker 1: And that deal was short circuited by the ground invasion 138 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: that occurred. 139 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 5: So again, you know, there's been. 140 00:06:51,880 --> 00:06:54,679 Speaker 1: I would say, and demonstrated from the beginning a real 141 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: lack of care and concern from net Yahoo with regard 142 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: to these hostages. The hostage families Emily took him forever 143 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: meet with them. There was this crazy report that in 144 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 1: one of the meetings with all the hostage families they 145 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: actually had like a plant infiltrator who was an activist 146 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: net Nyahu's supporter come in and be like whatever, net Yah, 147 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: who says, that's what we're on board with and they 148 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: need to just go for it and continue the fighting. 149 00:07:18,160 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 1: And keep in mind, you know, as this bombing campaign 150 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,760 Speaker 1: which has completely obliterated at this point Gaza City and 151 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 1: is now we're going to talk about this now. They're 152 00:07:26,440 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 1: moving into South Gaza, very place where they told everyone 153 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,720 Speaker 1: to flee to. They're now ramping up the bombing campaign 154 00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 1: there as well. Well, it's not only Palestinians who are 155 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: at risk there, these hostages are also at grave risk 156 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,119 Speaker 1: the longer that this bombing campaign goes on. This deal 157 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:47,200 Speaker 1: was apparently mediated by Qatar and is being crafted you know, 158 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: Qatars kind of the go between between Israel and Hamas 159 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 1: in terms of these negotiations. So yet to be seen 160 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 1: how close they actually are to striking this deal, but 161 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: I think it has become increasingly clear that the biggest 162 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: obstacle and the biggest barrier to having some kind of 163 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: a deal to release at least the women and the 164 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: children from this group of hostages has become you know, 165 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: net Yahoo in terms of their agreement on a potential 166 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: short term five. 167 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 5: Day roughly ceasefire. So that's where we are. 168 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: We also had a biden op ed that he published 169 00:08:21,560 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: in the last several days, and there was one noteworthy 170 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: part that people picked up on go ahead and put 171 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: this up on the screen. He is saying, as we 172 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: strive for peace Gaza in the West Bank should be 173 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:34,319 Speaker 1: reunited under a single GOVERNMENTCE structure, ultimately under a revitalized 174 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: Palestinian authority as we all work toward a two state solution. 175 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 1: I've been emphatic with Israel's leaders that extremist violence against 176 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: Palestinians in the West Bank must stop and that those 177 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: committing the violence must be held accountable. And this is 178 00:08:48,480 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: the part people really picked up on. The US is 179 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: prepared to take our own steps, including issuing visa bands 180 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: against extremist attacking civilians in the West Bank. And Barack Revied, 181 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: who as a reporter with Axios, his commentary on this 182 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: is he said, this matters, this is a big deal. 183 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: It's the first time the US is publicly considering individual 184 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: sanctions against settlers and Emily. Just to lay out for people, 185 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: part of why this is such a critical piece is 186 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: the whole settlement movement, this illegal settlement movement under international law. 187 00:09:22,200 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 1: The entire goal of it is to make a two 188 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:27,080 Speaker 1: state solution impossible. And already you have had and this 189 00:09:27,120 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: has been occurring over decades. 190 00:09:28,360 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 5: This is nothing new. 191 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: It has ramped up under the net Yahoo administration, and 192 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 1: it has further accelerated during this war on Gaza as 193 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,760 Speaker 1: you have. You know, this was already before October seventh, 194 00:09:40,040 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 1: the most violent year that Palestinians in the West Bank 195 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: had faced, perhaps ever, and now that violence has only escalated. 196 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: You have settlers coming in and attacking Palestinians, pushing them 197 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: off their land. And oftentimes it's not like they're just 198 00:09:55,559 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: out there freelancing. In half of these instances over the years, 199 00:09:59,600 --> 00:10:02,959 Speaker 1: the idea is actively involved. So this has been This 200 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: isn't again some extremist grow freelancing. 201 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:05,720 Speaker 5: This has been an. 202 00:10:05,640 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: Official policy of the Israeli government in an attempt to 203 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 1: make a two state solution completely unviable because they have 204 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: built out so many of these settlements within the West 205 00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:18,480 Speaker 1: Bank territory. The whole thing is basically like Swiss cheese 206 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:19,120 Speaker 1: at this point. 207 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and this is It was also the 208 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 4: deadliest year for Israelis before October seventh as well, because 209 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,080 Speaker 4: the violence had been so bad in the West Bank. 210 00:10:28,120 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: The tensions were so strong in the West Bank. 211 00:10:30,920 --> 00:10:33,920 Speaker 4: And that's important context for all of this, because it 212 00:10:34,160 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 4: wasn't just like out of the blue, it was there 213 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 4: were all of these clashes happening in the West Bank. 214 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 4: Because you have a very far right government that has 215 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:46,400 Speaker 4: actually settlers in the administration, that's right Yahoo administration, and 216 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 4: so obviously it was going in this direction, you know, 217 00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 4: it was going in a to a really bad place 218 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 4: really quickly of the course the last year. 219 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and part of what people in Israel, who by 220 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 1: the way, are not happy with the net Yahoo government 221 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,400 Speaker 1: means some like eighty percent blame him in part for 222 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:08,040 Speaker 1: what happened on October seventh. There was a recent poll 223 00:11:08,440 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: that showed that support for his party, Lacud party, had 224 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,680 Speaker 1: absolutely collapsed. Because this guy was supposed to be he 225 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: called himself mister Security, that's. 226 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 5: What his supporters called him. 227 00:11:16,440 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 1: And then to have this dramatic failure happen on your 228 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,640 Speaker 1: watch obviously has caused a massive loss of political support. 229 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: But one of the things that we identified in those 230 00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: early days was the fact that, you know, a lot 231 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: of security forces and IDF troops had been moved from 232 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: the area that was ultimately attacked by Hamas to guard 233 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 1: these settlers in the West Bank and help them with 234 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 1: these incursions and in pushing Palestinians off of their land. 235 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:46,439 Speaker 1: So there was a lot of pressure from his right 236 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: wing coalition partners to move those security forces to help 237 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 1: the settlers and to protect the settlers, and that's part 238 00:11:53,000 --> 00:11:55,600 Speaker 1: of why they were caught with their pants down on 239 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 1: October seventh. And you know, the political leanings of that 240 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: that air that was attacked by hamas Be or the 241 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 1: Gaza Strip tends to be more liberal, tends to be 242 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: more left. You've got these kibbutsum and people who are 243 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: peace activists. I mean, it's absolutely tragic that those were 244 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,760 Speaker 1: the people who were attacked, you know, the most aggressively 245 00:12:13,800 --> 00:12:17,200 Speaker 1: and the most horrifically in what happened on October seventh. 246 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 1: But that's part of the domestic rub of the failures 247 00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: that happened with this net Yahoo administration, as they were 248 00:12:22,160 --> 00:12:25,959 Speaker 1: so so obsessed with pushing forward and settlements that they 249 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: left this other group of their citizens exposed to these 250 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 1: attacks on October seventh, which is actually a good transition 251 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 1: to you know, we're learning more details about what unfolded 252 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,079 Speaker 1: on that day. Mehdi Hassan had an interview with an 253 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: IDF spokesperson where he was pressing him on you know, 254 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:50,120 Speaker 1: some of the falsehoods that have now been proven to 255 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: have come from the Israeli government, and there was a 256 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,480 Speaker 1: bit of a revelation here that was rather interesting. Let's 257 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: take a listen to how this all went out. 258 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 6: Those numbers are provided by Hamast, there's no independent And secondly, 259 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,679 Speaker 6: more importantly, you have no idea how many of them 260 00:13:03,720 --> 00:13:07,199 Speaker 6: are Commas terrorists, combatants and how many of civilians come us? 261 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 6: What have you believed that they're all civilians, that they're 262 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 6: all children? And here we have to say something that 263 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:16,120 Speaker 6: isn't said enough Commas until now we're destroying their military 264 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 6: machine and with that we're eroding their control. But up 265 00:13:18,480 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 6: until now they've been in control of the Gaza strip 266 00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 6: and as a result, they control all the images coming 267 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 6: out of Gaza. Have you seen one picture of a 268 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 6: single dead CAMAS terrorist in the fighting in Gaza? 269 00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:29,560 Speaker 7: Not one? 270 00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:34,680 Speaker 6: Is that that Commas can control Commas can control the information. 271 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 3: And you said you would be brief. 272 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 8: I have haven't. You're right, but I have. 273 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 6: Seen lots of children with my own lying eyes being 274 00:13:40,760 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 6: pulled from the robbers because there the pictures come. US 275 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 6: wants you to see exactly the pictures. Also, people your 276 00:13:48,200 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 6: government has killed. 277 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 3: You accept that right, you've killed children? Or do you deny? 278 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:50,960 Speaker 4: No? 279 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:52,240 Speaker 3: I do not, I do not. 280 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 9: I do not. 281 00:13:52,960 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 6: First of all, you don't know how those people died. 282 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:55,280 Speaker 10: Those two. 283 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 6: First of all, we don't want to see are killed. Okay, 284 00:13:58,760 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 6: he don't want to see a single I agree with you. 285 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: So you have two pieces there that are very noworthy. 286 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 1: Number One, he won't admit that children have been killed. 287 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, there's no reason to do that. 288 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 5: What kind of a fantasy land do you think we're all? 289 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:13,440 Speaker 11: Like? 290 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: How stupid do you think that we are? How many 291 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 1: of these horrifying images have we seen? We know that 292 00:14:18,520 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: the population of Gaza is nearly fifty percent children. Yeah, 293 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: we know that the death toll is I think roughly 294 00:14:25,240 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: forty percent children. So to deny they've killed any kids, 295 00:14:29,480 --> 00:14:31,240 Speaker 1: that is another level. By the way, I want to 296 00:14:31,240 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: crack myself, I said an idfspokesurce and this is actually 297 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 1: senior advisor to the Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Nett Yahoo. 298 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: The other part, though, that was really noteworthy here is 299 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: you'll recall the original death count on October seventh was 300 00:14:43,880 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: roughly fourteen hundred, and then they revised it down to 301 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: twelve hundred, and he says that that's because some of 302 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: the bodies that were burned beyond recognition that they had 303 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: assumed were Israeli citizens were actually Hamas militants. 304 00:14:55,720 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 5: So that was. 305 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:00,040 Speaker 1: Another important revelation there, And just in the interest of 306 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 1: accuracy and what actually unfolded on October seventh raises a 307 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: lot of questions too about exactly what the response was 308 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: and what that looked like. 309 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 4: And to that point, there's just absolutely no reason to 310 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,880 Speaker 4: not answer the question about children. It doesn't make any sense. 311 00:15:13,920 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 4: It doesn't make any sense from the line that Israel used, 312 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:19,720 Speaker 4: and I think, by the way, rightfully show that in 313 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,200 Speaker 4: so many senses, Hamas put children in this situation, that 314 00:15:23,280 --> 00:15:26,560 Speaker 4: Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen after October seventh, 315 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 4: So you can't have to be true. At the same time, 316 00:15:29,200 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 4: you can't say Hamas is putting their own people in 317 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 4: this awful situation, but also that these children are not 318 00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 4: in an awful situation. There's absolutely no reason to take 319 00:15:38,040 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 4: the first line when first of all, the entire world 320 00:15:40,760 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 4: and by the way, I was talking about this with 321 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:47,920 Speaker 4: Ryan last week. It's really frustrating because there's no like 322 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 4: we're going to talk about this in the next segment, 323 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 4: but we need to. Western journalists are not in Gaza 324 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 4: journalists who are in Gaza are in grave danger, and 325 00:15:57,880 --> 00:15:59,760 Speaker 4: that means over here on the side of the world, 326 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 4: we have to take what the Israeli government is saying seriously. 327 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 3: They are making that very difficult, and they have been 328 00:16:08,880 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 3: doing that for years. 329 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 4: But in a situation like this, when you cannot even 330 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 4: concede that children have been killed, the trust that you 331 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:21,560 Speaker 4: desperately need to build with American audiences, with Western audiences, 332 00:16:21,640 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 4: with British audiences, with everyone around the world that is 333 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:29,840 Speaker 4: not in Gaza right now is severely damaged. And there's 334 00:16:29,880 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 4: no it's it's a totally unforced air. 335 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, listen, I think Israel has decided because 336 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: I've been thinking about this. Their propaganda is so sloppy, 337 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 1: it's been bad. It's actually astonishing to me. You know, 338 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: we're going to talk later about that CNN report where 339 00:16:46,920 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: they were with you know, the IDF guy, and he's 340 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: showing them what he purports to be evidence that this 341 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: other hospital, not Alshiva, a different hospital I think it 342 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: is called, I don't remember the name of it, the 343 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: children's hospital, that it was used by Hamas militants, and 344 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 1: you know, his' point into like baby bottles and it's like, yeah, 345 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: it's a children's hospital where people starre seeking refuge. But 346 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:10,000 Speaker 1: the real crowning moment is when he reveals this Arabic 347 00:17:10,480 --> 00:17:14,560 Speaker 1: list that he says is where the terrorists were recording 348 00:17:14,600 --> 00:17:17,439 Speaker 1: their names of when they were watching the hostages. And 349 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:20,320 Speaker 1: immediately people who actually speak Arabic look at this and 350 00:17:20,359 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: are like, it's literally just a calendar. And again, I 351 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: am quite sure that the IDF has plenty of Arabic 352 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: speakers available to them. I'm also quite sure by the 353 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,080 Speaker 1: way that CNN has plenty of Arabic speakers available to them. 354 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:37,080 Speaker 1: So to have the level of propaganda be that incredibly 355 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,960 Speaker 1: sloppy is just to me completely absurd. It's one of 356 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 1: the things that many presses him on. But I think 357 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: that they, really, number one, are just so used to 358 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: all of this is for a US audience, right, They 359 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: know that international opinion, They don't really care about international opinion, 360 00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: They just care about a US audience. I think there's 361 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: been such lockstep support for Israel across both parties for 362 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,159 Speaker 1: so long that they ever felt the need to have 363 00:18:01,240 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: the propaganda be actually very good, and now really they're 364 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 1: only pitching it to Joe Biden and Joe Biden seems 365 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: to be buying it all hook line and Singer, So 366 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: I guess they don't feel the need to up their 367 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:15,800 Speaker 1: game in terms of the propaganda efforts here because the 368 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: one guy that they need to keep on their side 369 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: that they seem to be doing the job just fine. 370 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 5: On that. 371 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:24,159 Speaker 1: I saw some people commenting on Twitter that basically, like, 372 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: the one person who believes all of this is Joe Biden, 373 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: but that's the only person they need to believe all 374 00:18:29,359 --> 00:18:29,600 Speaker 1: of this. 375 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:30,600 Speaker 5: So I guess there you go. 376 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 4: Although as we were just talking about, they're not it 377 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 4: seems entirely happy with the US pushing so hard for 378 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 4: a hostage deal, and they don't seem entirely happy with 379 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 4: the Biden administrations call for humanitarian ceasefire that seems to have, 380 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:49,840 Speaker 4: you know, obviously been a point of tension. But I 381 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,200 Speaker 4: also think, and this is a really interesting point actually 382 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 4: that you just brought up the intense level of propaganda 383 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 4: that any country would engage in. But the sloppiness and 384 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 4: the propaganda I also think is partially because they're doing 385 00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,960 Speaker 4: so much of it. 386 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 3: I don't know if you've noticed. 387 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 4: It's like, obviously we're in the social media era, So 388 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 4: they're trying to be completely aggressive so that when something 389 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 4: gets posted on X and all of the journalists are 390 00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:18,880 Speaker 4: there and narratives start getting crafted, that they're on top 391 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,360 Speaker 4: of it. They're in front of it. But it's been 392 00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 4: very sloppy. It's a really strange thing to watch happen 393 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,880 Speaker 4: in real time on social media, and I think that's 394 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 4: where some of this has has just looked so ham fisted, 395 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 4: is that they're trying so hard in the middle of 396 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 4: a war to be winning the propaganda race, and it's 397 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 4: just so it's very odd to watch happen. 398 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: The other thing is, I think, frankly, that their actions 399 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,400 Speaker 1: in Gaza, where you have this overwhelming civilian death toll, 400 00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: where you have so many children being massacred, where you 401 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:53,000 Speaker 1: have daily attacks on I mean, we can't even keep 402 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: track on schools, refugee camps, hospitals, ambulances, you name it, 403 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 1: civilian infrastructure, and it's been destroyed. Like they know that 404 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:05,679 Speaker 1: that on its face is not actually defensible, and so 405 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: that's how you end up with this preposterous attempt to 406 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:10,480 Speaker 1: be like, I don't really know that we killed on 407 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,680 Speaker 1: any kids. You can't prove that we killed on any kids, 408 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 1: and that's also the reason why they've so aggressively cut 409 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:19,400 Speaker 1: off communications and also, by the way, why they've targeted journalists. 410 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,400 Speaker 1: I think the number is fifty now journalists in Gaza. 411 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:24,280 Speaker 5: Who have been killed. 412 00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 1: And by the way, there's been, you know, virtual silence 413 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,679 Speaker 1: from the American press, which claim during the Trump administration 414 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: cares so much about freedom of the press and protecting journalists, 415 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. Pretty much total silence when it comes to 416 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:38,760 Speaker 1: the fact that so many journalists have been killed, more 417 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:43,440 Speaker 1: than any other conflicts that we've seen. There's another interesting 418 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:48,119 Speaker 1: new detail, and I'll phrase this very delicately, about October seventh, 419 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,720 Speaker 1: that also came out. This was from a Haaretz report, 420 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: and let's go ahead and put this up on the 421 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 1: screen from our own Ryan Grimm, sort of summarizing. 422 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 5: What came out here. 423 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 1: This was from Just to be clear, it was from 424 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: the Hebrew version of the paper. This is a translation 425 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: from Google Translate, so it maybe a little imprecise, and 426 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:06,240 Speaker 1: I'll get to that in a minute. But the bottom 427 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 1: line here is, you know, one of the greatest scenes 428 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,640 Speaker 1: of horror and atrocities was that Rave of Music festival, 429 00:21:13,240 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: and this Haretz investigation found that number one. Organizers originally 430 00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,840 Speaker 1: planned to end the event on Friday, but got permission 431 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:24,080 Speaker 1: to extend it midweek from the Army. And this goes 432 00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,040 Speaker 1: to the idea that actually Hamas didn't even know this 433 00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:28,800 Speaker 1: festival was going on. They just sort of happened upon 434 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: it and then of course killed a lot of civilians 435 00:21:30,760 --> 00:21:33,680 Speaker 1: and unleashed horrors there. Hamas did not know about the 436 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: music festival, only learning about it after breaching Israeli territory. 437 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:38,919 Speaker 1: This assessment is backed up by a body cam footage 438 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,560 Speaker 1: of a terrorist asking a captured civilian where the bad 439 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 1: guys are? 440 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 5: Now. 441 00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: That part, in particular seems to be a poor translation. 442 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 1: Apparently the Hebrew word for bad guys and the Hebrew 443 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: word for one of the kibbuts that they did plan 444 00:21:50,800 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 1: to attack and did in fact attack, is very similar. 445 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: So the Hebrew language speakers that I saw said, no, 446 00:21:57,160 --> 00:21:58,959 Speaker 1: this was actually not asking where the bad guys are, 447 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: They were asking for directions to this kibbutz. But this 448 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 1: last one is really key and has got a lot 449 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,320 Speaker 1: of people's attention. It is rarely attack. Helicopter fired on 450 00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:12,480 Speaker 1: terrorists and also killed some of the partygoers, which opens 451 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: up a real question Emily of you know, how many 452 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 1: of the civilians who were horribly massacred on October seventh, 453 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 1: how much of that was friendly fire. It's a question 454 00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:23,639 Speaker 1: that a lot of people have been asking from the 455 00:22:23,680 --> 00:22:26,200 Speaker 1: beginning and were completely shut down like this was off 456 00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: the table. But you know, in the interest of accuracy 457 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 1: and understanding the events that unfolded on this horrific and 458 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 1: fateful day, it's important to know exactly what the response was, 459 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: what the death toll was, and how all of this unfolded. 460 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:39,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, it absolutely is. 461 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 4: And again that's why you know, the Israeli government, the IDF, 462 00:22:43,200 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 4: whatever side you take in this conflict. 463 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,160 Speaker 3: Obviously it's no it's. 464 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 4: No easy task to be in the middle of a 465 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 4: war right now and to also be managing you know, 466 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,360 Speaker 4: the international press and the international community and all of that. 467 00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 4: But the Israeli government has done itself absolutely no absolutely 468 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 4: no favors by saying things like That's why the children 469 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:10,080 Speaker 4: point on Medi's show is such an unforced error, because 470 00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,879 Speaker 4: when you have situations like this, and you know, the 471 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,159 Speaker 4: Haretz account is so far the only account we have 472 00:23:16,840 --> 00:23:20,240 Speaker 4: of the helicopters and the civilians, that doesn't mean it 473 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 4: won't be verified. It very well could be verified, in fact, 474 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 4: because as some of Israel's defenders were saying last night 475 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 4: on x it's pretty believable, right when you're in the 476 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 4: middle of this insane attack that sadly there's going to 477 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,879 Speaker 4: be people caught in the crossfire. I can't it's hard 478 00:23:36,920 --> 00:23:39,680 Speaker 4: to even talk about those sorts of things. But if 479 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 4: that's the case, you your trust with the public, in 480 00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 4: your trust with you know, American benefactors, the people who 481 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 4: are sending military assistants, the people who are you know, 482 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 4: in the UN, whatever it is, your trust should be ironclad. 483 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,879 Speaker 4: And when you are caught in the middle of just 484 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 4: ridiculous talking points, you are doing yourself no favors whatsoever. 485 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 4: And this isn't to say that we should all just 486 00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 4: be able to blindly trust the Israeli government. It is 487 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 4: to say that the Israeli government should be doing absolutely 488 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 4: everything in its power to ensure that that trust is 489 00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 4: coming from a serious place and to give the public 490 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,959 Speaker 4: reason to trust their lawmakers who are saying that they 491 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,160 Speaker 4: trust the Israeli government. Biden last week saying that as 492 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:29,359 Speaker 4: it pertains to the hospital, he really believes the intelligence, 493 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 4: but he won't say what it is that this is 494 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,919 Speaker 4: a Hummas central command site. Well, if he's saying that 495 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:37,960 Speaker 4: he has intelligence, that the Israeli government has intelligence, and 496 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 4: the public then has to trust that while the Israeli 497 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 4: government is saying it is taking such ridiculous lines. Yeah, 498 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 4: in the public that is incredibly deleterious to the cause 499 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:51,800 Speaker 4: that Israel wants to promote. 500 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: I mean, I trust the Israeli government as much as 501 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,840 Speaker 1: I trust Moss, which is to say not at all. 502 00:24:55,880 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: And so it makes it impossible to really know what's 503 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: happening on the ground. Have to trust, you know, the 504 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: doctors at the hospital and take the word of the 505 00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: ordinary civilians who are there and the few remaining journalists 506 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,000 Speaker 1: who have not been killed who remain in the Gaza strip. 507 00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 1: But you know, one final point on why this music 508 00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: festival piece matters, because I can see people being like, yeah, okay, 509 00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, friendly fire, what does it matter. Obviously Hamas 510 00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,720 Speaker 1: came and massacred people. We know that, and no one 511 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,640 Speaker 1: is denying that here. But let me just say that 512 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: part of what has been used, in fact, the entirety 513 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 1: of the case that has been used to justify the 514 00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 1: indiscriminate bombing campaign, the complete leveling of Gaza city, now 515 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 1: moving into the south where they told everyone to flee, 516 00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: the very high civilian death rate, higher by the way 517 00:25:41,880 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 1: than even the civilian death rate that Hamas inflicted on 518 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: October seventh. What has been used to justify that is 519 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 1: the details of the horrors and atrocities that were committed 520 00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: on October seventh, and so it's important we know those 521 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: details and we know what is actually true and what 522 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,480 Speaker 1: is actually false, because that's how that is the emotional 523 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: case that they're making to justify committing essentially like daily 524 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,120 Speaker 1: war crimes in their prosecution of this war on Gaza. 525 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:11,800 Speaker 1: So that's why getting these details, you know, and apart 526 00:26:11,840 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: from just knowing the historical record and having an accurate picture, 527 00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,639 Speaker 1: that is the additional layer of why it matters to 528 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: get these things straight. And that report from how Rotz 529 00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,359 Speaker 1: it came from a police, an Israeli police investigation, so 530 00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: it has a high level of credibility here. And also 531 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 1: now as people point out, it does make sense in 532 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,679 Speaker 1: terms of the response and also in terms of some 533 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 1: of the images that came out of the extent of 534 00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: the destruction, which it seems unlikely Hamas would have been 535 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 1: able to execute on their own. All right, let's go 536 00:26:42,800 --> 00:26:46,439 Speaker 1: ahead to speaking of propaganda. We have some updates about 537 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: Al Chifa Hospital, which was at Central Hospital in Gaza. 538 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: You know, the Israeli government built for weeks a case 539 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: that this was Hamas's headquarters, that they had this elaborate 540 00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,159 Speaker 1: tunnel system underneath. They sent out multiple images that they 541 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: said showed where the entrances to these tunnels were. They 542 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 1: had graphics that showed all of these elaborate infrastructure that 543 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,560 Speaker 1: they claimed was underneath the buildings. They had their famous 544 00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:13,679 Speaker 1: computer animation of hamaskran Central underneath of the hospital. In 545 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 1: the first days after they raided Al Shifa at great 546 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:22,000 Speaker 1: cost to civilian life there, they put out very limited 547 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,000 Speaker 1: evidence of certainly nothing approaching what they had originally claimed. 548 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:30,119 Speaker 1: There were something like ten guns laid down on a table. 549 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: CNN and other Western outlets caught them like moving these 550 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: guns around and manipulating the evidence. Something I covered over 551 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:38,720 Speaker 1: the weekend. There was a box of dates that was involved. 552 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:40,879 Speaker 1: It was limited, okay in terms of what they were showing. 553 00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 1: Now they have a new video that they released that 554 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:47,880 Speaker 1: they claim shows a much larger tunnel. Let's go ahead 555 00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:50,359 Speaker 1: and put this up on the screen and you can 556 00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,879 Speaker 1: see the operational tunnel shaft. This goes on for a 557 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:54,720 Speaker 1: little bit of time, but I just want to make sure, 558 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: you know, in the interest of you know, everybody seeing 559 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,280 Speaker 1: the full nature of the evidence that they're providing here, 560 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 1: I want to put it out there. They say in 561 00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: their tweet that revealed this video that they found a 562 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: significant fifty five meter long terrorist tunnel ten meters underneath 563 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 1: the Shifa Hospital complex during an intelligence based operation. The 564 00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,359 Speaker 1: tunnel entrance contains various defense mechanisms, such as a blastproof 565 00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:18,560 Speaker 1: door in a firing hole in an attempt by Hamasa 566 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: block Israeli forces from entering. For weeks, we've been telling 567 00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: the world about hamasas cynical use of the residence of 568 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,320 Speaker 1: Gaza and patients of Sheifa Hospital as human shields. 569 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 5: Here is more proof. 570 00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: So you know, a lot of people I think will 571 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: be skeptical of this video to begin with, because of 572 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 1: all the issues with Israeli government propaganda, as we've just 573 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,640 Speaker 1: been saying. But Emily, even if you take this at 574 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:42,240 Speaker 1: face value, that this you know generally is a tunnel, 575 00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: which is very believable given the fact we know. Put 576 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:46,480 Speaker 1: this next piece up on the screen that Israel themselves 577 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: had built buggers and underneath of this hospital back in 578 00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:53,480 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty three when Israel still ruled Gaza. So it's 579 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 1: certainly totally believable that there are tunnels underneath of Al Chief. 580 00:28:56,960 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 5: I don't think anyone should deny that. 581 00:28:58,720 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 1: But this is a far from the original presentation of 582 00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:06,920 Speaker 1: why rating this hospital was justified something that you know, 583 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: under international law, hospitals are generally off limits. It requires 584 00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:17,400 Speaker 1: absolutely exceptional circumstances to justify a raid and seizure embombing 585 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: of a hospital as what occurred here. As I mentioned, 586 00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: there was tremendous loss of human life. You know, dozens 587 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: of people died because of this raid at this hospital, 588 00:29:25,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: and you know, still and even Western media outlets saying 589 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:32,720 Speaker 1: this nothing approaching what they initially claimed has been proved here. 590 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is what was really again interesting to watch 591 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 4: the IDF and the Israeli government over the weekend on 592 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,160 Speaker 4: social media use social media to sort of win the 593 00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 4: propaganda war on this question of the hospital. The World 594 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 4: Health Organization, which the Israeli government has sort of accused 595 00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 4: of being complicit in October seventh and complicit in the 596 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,840 Speaker 4: UN in general sort of being aware of what Hamas 597 00:29:55,960 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 4: was doing, but not being you know, publicly sort of 598 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,480 Speaker 4: raising red flag, et cetera, et cetera. They put out 599 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 4: a report on Saturday saying they went in on Saturday. 600 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 4: There are twenty five health workers and two hundred and 601 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:10,200 Speaker 4: ninety one patients remaining in Al Shifa, which with several 602 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 4: patient deaths having occurred over the previous two to three 603 00:30:12,600 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 4: days due to the shutting down of medical services. Patients 604 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 4: include thirty two babies in extremely critical condition, two people 605 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 4: in intensive care without ventilation, and twenty two dialysis patients 606 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:27,360 Speaker 4: whose access to life saving treatment has been severely compromised. 607 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 4: So at least as of Saturday, that's sort of the 608 00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 4: state of affairs and where everything stands. 609 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 3: But in addition that that was from Tablet. 610 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 4: If people just saw that up on their screen about 611 00:30:38,520 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 4: the Israeli tunnels from back in the nineteen eighties, that 612 00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:46,080 Speaker 4: was from Tablet pros rule publications. So, I mean, finding 613 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:49,040 Speaker 4: the tunnels probably wasn't the hard part for the Israeli government. 614 00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 3: It was probably more like accessing the tunnels in a 615 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,959 Speaker 3: way that you know, there weren't booby trapped, that they 616 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,120 Speaker 3: felt was the safest way that they possibly could. 617 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 4: But this is the state of affairs. These are the tunnels, 618 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 4: and they are giving CNN interviews, they're giving Fox News 619 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:07,160 Speaker 4: interviews where they're actually, you know, there are additional guns. 620 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 4: As you talked about, there's additional guns in one of 621 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,719 Speaker 4: the scenes. They said it's because they found more guns, 622 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 4: not that they moved the guns there. They're saying, you know, 623 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 4: this was going to be the grand you mentioned this 624 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 4: central command center. They're like central nervous system of Hamas 625 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 4: was going to be under here. So they're spending the 626 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 4: weekend pushing out image after image after image, and you 627 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 4: just have to trust them that this is what it 628 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 4: says it is when you also are finding out that 629 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 4: things aren't what they say it, they are right again. 630 00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 4: So if we hypothetically, say, hypothetically give them the total 631 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 4: benefit of the doubts, say everything they're saying is correct. 632 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 4: They are going about it so poorly because nobody has 633 00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 4: any reason to believe it. When you make missteps like 634 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:50,840 Speaker 4: this time and again and again, and the cynical person, 635 00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 4: of course will say, well, it's not a misstep, it's 636 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 4: an intentional propaganda campaign, which people that's what everyone does 637 00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 4: in war, but it's just when you have a hospital involved. 638 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 4: When Ryan and I were talking about it last week, 639 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:06,520 Speaker 4: it was like, this is a situation that really is 640 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 4: reflective of so many of the different tensions in the conflict, 641 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 4: like this one is almost symbolic of the conflict. 642 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 3: As a whole. 643 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 5: Yeah. 644 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,000 Speaker 1: I think that's right, and that's part of why they 645 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: have been so aggressively trying to prove their case. And also, 646 00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:22,880 Speaker 1: at the same time they're trying to prove the case, 647 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: they're also rapidly moving the goalposts, which we'll get to 648 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: you in a moment. But to your point, Emily about 649 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: the skepticism from the Western press put this up on 650 00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: the screen. I mean, you had basically every major media 651 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: outlet nicely, very diplomatically, like Kamanyo, you said, this was 652 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: a oscar in Central and we've seen nothing like a 653 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: oscar in Central. You've got CNN with that analysis video 654 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:48,720 Speaker 1: suggests IDF might have rearranged weaponry at Alshifa prior to. 655 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 5: News crew visits. 656 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: There is also a BBC report that I played over 657 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: the weekend to the same effect. The economist asking was 658 00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 1: Israel's attack on Al Shifa Hospital justified if you read 659 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 1: the column, the suggested answer is very much know the 660 00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: Washington Post Israeli troops scour Gaza's Al Shifa Hospital for 661 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 1: evidence of Hamas, and again the narrative beforehand was this 662 00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: is Hamasa's headquarters. That's why listen, we hate it. We 663 00:33:15,880 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 1: hate that it's a civilian. We have no beef of civilians, 664 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,280 Speaker 1: but we have to go in because this is Hamas's headquarters. 665 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 1: Here's our commuter animation that shows you we know exactly 666 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:24,400 Speaker 1: where these things are and this is what we're going 667 00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: to find. And the presentation of media outlets of like 668 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: this is where the tunnels are. We've got in pinpoint 669 00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:31,880 Speaker 1: and we know where to go. The US government the 670 00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: day before, coming out John Kirby, NSC spokesperson saying, yeah, 671 00:33:35,800 --> 00:33:37,960 Speaker 1: we have intelligence as well that backs this up. I 672 00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:39,960 Speaker 1: don't think it's an accent. That's the very next day 673 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: that this rate occurs and still nothing approaching what they 674 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,080 Speaker 1: originally claimed has panned out. I also don't think it's 675 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: an accident that now, because of the loss of international 676 00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: legitimacy surrounding this raid of this hospital and also know 677 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: what they've been doing overall in Gaza. I don't think 678 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,080 Speaker 1: it's an accident that that has pushed them closer to 679 00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 1: accepting some sort of a hostage sheeld and some sort 680 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: of a five day cease fire because the Biden administration 681 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: has been pathetic and they're pushed back. The most important 682 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: thing that they said is that there are absolutely no 683 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:12,080 Speaker 1: red lines for Israel. 684 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:13,640 Speaker 5: But you can. 685 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,759 Speaker 1: See Biden putting out this op ed saying, you know what, 686 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 1: We're actually going to maybe sanction these illegal settlers, increasing 687 00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: pressure behind the scenes, et cetera, et cetera, that Israel 688 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: is feeling at least some pressure because their public case 689 00:34:26,760 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: has so clearly fallen apart. And you know, the last piece, 690 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 1: let's put this up on the screen from the World 691 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,680 Speaker 1: Health Organization. I only read some of this report. They 692 00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 1: said due to time loans, I think there were only 693 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: allowed inside. Yeah, they said for one hour inside the hospital, 694 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 1: which they described as a death zone and the situation 695 00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 1: as desperate. Signs of shelling and gunfire inside this hospital 696 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,640 Speaker 1: were evident. The team saw a mass grave at the 697 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: entrance of the hospital and was told that more than 698 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:58,719 Speaker 1: eighty people were buried there. So there's no doubt that 699 00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:03,160 Speaker 1: absolute horrors unfolded here. We know that und I think 700 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 1: four of the premature babies that had to be removed 701 00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,160 Speaker 1: from the incubators because they ran on fuel died. We 702 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: know everyone in the intensive care unit died. We know 703 00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:16,880 Speaker 1: that there were patients who were effectively forced to evacuate, 704 00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: who were in no condition to travel, who were moving 705 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,839 Speaker 1: by foot. We know the horrific conditions that doctors were 706 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: facing as they were trying their best to care for patients. 707 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,839 Speaker 1: And you know, it's Israel scrambling to try to prove 708 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,879 Speaker 1: that this was all worth it and making a case 709 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 1: that I think very few people are believing at this point. 710 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,720 Speaker 4: The word scrambling I think is really accurate because actually 711 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,839 Speaker 4: over the weekend they released video of hostages being brought 712 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 4: into El Shifa on October seventh. Yeah, and again a 713 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,759 Speaker 4: lot of people said, again like, look, this proves this 714 00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 4: is some last central command. They're taking the hostages to 715 00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,960 Speaker 4: a hospital. It's also the largest, most advanced hospital in Gaza. 716 00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,879 Speaker 4: So again I'm not sure that that proves it. And 717 00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 4: at one point someone from the IDEF, maybe even the 718 00:35:57,320 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 4: IDEA of itself, said the video is on our side. 719 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 4: Think they told media that the video and they weren't 720 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 4: talking just about that particular video they were talking about 721 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 4: all the video in general. 722 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 3: They're saying the video is on our side. 723 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 4: That quote to me again, I actually don't dismiss the 724 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:14,480 Speaker 4: possibility that Al Shifa, given the fact that it had 725 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 4: tunnels that have been there since the nineteen eighties, may 726 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,840 Speaker 4: have been used as HAMAS headquarters. I don't think that's impossible. 727 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 4: But even if you take that, even if you agree 728 00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:26,920 Speaker 4: with me that you know this is it's not impossible 729 00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 4: that this is HAMAS headquarters. Obviously Hamas is operating underground. 730 00:36:30,440 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 4: Obviously Hamas planned what happened on October seventh somewhere. So 731 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,839 Speaker 4: even if you you sort of say, yes, this is 732 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,160 Speaker 4: possible that this is a HAMAS central command, here's actually 733 00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,600 Speaker 4: the word that the idf used quote well hidden terrorist 734 00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 4: infrastructure in the complex. Well hidden terrorist infrastructure in the complex. Okay, 735 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 4: So if you even if you do that, what they 736 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 4: have produced so far is not what you would expect 737 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,160 Speaker 4: if you said that there was a well hidden terrorist 738 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,560 Speaker 4: infrastructure in the complex. That's just not what we've seen 739 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,560 Speaker 4: so far, which is why they're coming out now and 740 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 4: getting ahead of it and saying things like the video 741 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 4: is on our side. 742 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, and also and this we can transition to the 743 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: next part here rapidly moving the goalpost. So they're no 744 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,120 Speaker 1: longer saying this was Hamas HQ. Now they're saying, oh, 745 00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,880 Speaker 1: actually Hamas HQ is really in the south, and Hamas 746 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: all you know, the Hamas leaders all fled to the south. 747 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,480 Speaker 1: That's why even they acknowledge they haven't been able to 748 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,920 Speaker 1: get that many of top Hamas leadership. So now they're saying, okay, Communists, 749 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 1: that's the real place where Hamas HQ is. So the 750 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: story has dramatically shifted. And you'll recall, of course Palestinians 751 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 1: were told to flee northern Gaza. There was a you know, 752 00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:40,800 Speaker 1: line that was established you must go to southern Gaza 753 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,480 Speaker 1: otherwise you're going to be deemed a terrorist you you know, 754 00:37:43,520 --> 00:37:47,080 Speaker 1: will feel free to attack, you, bomb your home, whatever, 755 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,160 Speaker 1: which they did quite dramatically in the north of Gaza. 756 00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: So now you have effectively, i mean very close to 757 00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: all of two million residents of Gaza who are in 758 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: southern Gaza. Communists is one of the places that people 759 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 1: have fled to because that's where they were told to 760 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,080 Speaker 1: go under the assumption that they would be safe. Now 761 00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: the bombing of southern Gaza has actually ramped up after 762 00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,640 Speaker 1: those evacuation orders. It's not like it's ever really been 763 00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: a safe place, but Israel is now signaling okay, since 764 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: amas HQ wasn't an Ashifa, it's actually in Conunison. 765 00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:18,280 Speaker 5: That's where Hamas leadership fled. 766 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: Now we're going to start this more aggressive bombing campaign 767 00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,600 Speaker 1: in the south. US Deputy National Security Advisor John Feiner 768 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,839 Speaker 1: was on the Sunday shows doing his duty, looking very 769 00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,520 Speaker 1: uncomfortable by the way in this role. But anyway, we'll 770 00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 1: put that aside. Raising alarms and concerns that the US 771 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: government has with this ramped up attack in the South. 772 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: Let's take a listen to what he had to say. 773 00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:41,919 Speaker 12: We have been quite clear that Israel has every right 774 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,920 Speaker 12: to defend itself against the threat that it faces. That includes, 775 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 12: by the way, the right to go after Hamas leadership, 776 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 12: who they say now have fled to the southern part 777 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 12: of Gaza and have sought refuge there. So in the 778 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:59,080 Speaker 12: event that we believe that Israel is likely to embark 779 00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 12: on combat operation, including in the South, we believe both 780 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 12: that they have the right to do that, but that 781 00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:06,920 Speaker 12: there is a real concern because hundreds of thousands of 782 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,160 Speaker 12: residents of Gaza have fled now from the north to 783 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:13,719 Speaker 12: the south at Israel's request, and we think that their 784 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:20,000 Speaker 12: operations should not go forward until those people, those additional civilians, 785 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,040 Speaker 12: have been accounted for in their military planning, and so 786 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 12: we will be conveying that directly to them, and have 787 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:27,520 Speaker 12: been conveying that directly to them. They should draw lessons 788 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:31,720 Speaker 12: from how the operation proceeded in the north, including lessons 789 00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 12: that lead to greater and enhanced protections for civilian life, 790 00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:40,399 Speaker 12: things like narrowing the area of active combat, clarifying where 791 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 12: civilians can seek refuge from the fighting. 792 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:46,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, very diplomatically, he's saying, listen, you bombed 793 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: a hell on of northern Gaza. You killed thousands upon 794 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,359 Speaker 1: thousands of civilians, thousands upon thousands of children. Maybe take 795 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: some lessons from that as you move into southern Gaza. 796 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:58,440 Speaker 4: Well, and to your point, this is where the Biden 797 00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,040 Speaker 4: administration is really under the crunch with the Israeli government. 798 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,800 Speaker 4: I mean, obviously, again this is part of their messaging 799 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,840 Speaker 4: campaign in the media. You know, this is this is 800 00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 4: part of how the Biden administration is negotiating with Israels 801 00:40:10,960 --> 00:40:14,279 Speaker 4: what they're saying publicly on shows exactly like this, and you. 802 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 3: Know, it's crystal. 803 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:21,439 Speaker 4: I mean, it's a very interesting state of affairs as 804 00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 4: of right now, because again we were just talking about 805 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:25,880 Speaker 4: the hospital. 806 00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 3: Some of this stuff is fully believable. 807 00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 4: We don't know that it's true, but it's entirely possible again, 808 00:40:31,280 --> 00:40:34,719 Speaker 4: that Alshifa was being used as a Hamas headquarters. It's 809 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 4: entirely possible that Hamas knowing you know, the ground invasion 810 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 4: obviously was delayed and delayed and delayed as people were 811 00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:45,520 Speaker 4: waiting for it, that Hamas cleared places and went to 812 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 4: the south. But again, this has been happening over the 813 00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 4: last few weeks. Even if the Israeli government says that 814 00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,200 Speaker 4: it is doing absolutely everything it can to protect civilians 815 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 4: within reasonable boundaries, and then people in the south, in 816 00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:04,560 Speaker 4: the South aren't safe, that it is an incredible problem 817 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:07,279 Speaker 4: for the Israeli government. It's an incredible problem for the 818 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:10,360 Speaker 4: United States government, especially given where public opinion is heading 819 00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:12,440 Speaker 4: in the United States. And I think that's what the 820 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 4: Biden administration understands, and it's why Reuters is reporting. 821 00:41:16,440 --> 00:41:18,400 Speaker 3: I think clearly from. 822 00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:23,840 Speaker 4: Katari sources that any obstacles to this piece deal that 823 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:26,600 Speaker 4: we talked about earlier in the show are minor. I 824 00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,440 Speaker 4: think is the term that the Katari sources quote very minor, 825 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 4: because the Biden administration has to answer questions exactly like this. 826 00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 4: And if Israel starts turning towards an operation more heavily 827 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:39,480 Speaker 4: in the South, they've already had problems with civilians being 828 00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 4: put in danger in the South. If they start turning 829 00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 4: in that direction, it's a huge problem, not just for 830 00:41:44,160 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 4: the Israelis, but for the American government as well. 831 00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:49,960 Speaker 1: The Israelis caret yahoo. Let me say not. I don't 832 00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,960 Speaker 1: like to speak in those blanket terms, and when I 833 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,480 Speaker 1: say Israelis always mean the Israeli government cares about one thing, 834 00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: which is keeping Joe Biden on their side. 835 00:41:57,680 --> 00:41:59,319 Speaker 5: And all of these little you know. 836 00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,680 Speaker 1: There's all these leaks to the press about like, oh, 837 00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:05,040 Speaker 1: they're really concerned. Behind the scenes, they're having these tough conversations, 838 00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 1: and you know, they send this dude out who I've 839 00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 1: actually never heard of before to be like, oh, we're 840 00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,040 Speaker 1: worried about the South, et cetera, et cetera. 841 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:11,840 Speaker 5: I think it's. 842 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,680 Speaker 1: Already very clear that until there is a US willingness 843 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,880 Speaker 1: to say You're not getting our money unless you stop 844 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:25,880 Speaker 1: bombing schools, bombing hospitals, indiscriminately bombing and killing civilians. Nothing's 845 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,080 Speaker 1: going to change until the US, you know, actually starts 846 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,839 Speaker 1: letting some things, some votes. 847 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:31,479 Speaker 5: Go through the UN. 848 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,640 Speaker 1: And you did actually have them let one thing go through, 849 00:42:33,680 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: which is about these quote unquote humanitarian pauses. 850 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 5: But we know from what. 851 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,360 Speaker 3: The settlement leak. I mean, that's the Biden saying he 852 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:41,239 Speaker 3: might sanction. 853 00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 1: Settlers settlers, So I mean that's like a little little 854 00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,080 Speaker 1: like maybe I'll do that, And that's very minimal in 855 00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:52,880 Speaker 1: terms of what we could do with the incredible leverage 856 00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:55,360 Speaker 1: that we have, the amount of money that we routinely 857 00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,640 Speaker 1: send Israel, and the escalating fourteen billion dollars that we're 858 00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: planning to send right now, the huge list of weapons 859 00:43:01,080 --> 00:43:02,680 Speaker 1: that they tried to keep secret, by the way, from 860 00:43:02,719 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: the American public, of what exactly is being sent to Israel, 861 00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: and Ken Klippenstein and others were able to get their 862 00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:11,280 Speaker 1: hands on specifically that list and reveal what has already 863 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,960 Speaker 1: been sent. So until the US government is actually inclined 864 00:43:16,000 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: to use any of that considerable leverage, Israel's going to 865 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,959 Speaker 1: do what they want. And you know, the population is traumatized. 866 00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:28,920 Speaker 1: By October seventh, they are convinced this is an existential threat. 867 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: And so the polling shows some eighty percent don't really 868 00:43:32,239 --> 00:43:36,840 Speaker 1: care that much about Palestinian civilian life. So I think again, 869 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,000 Speaker 1: there's not going to be any change in the approach 870 00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: from the Israeli government until the US does more than 871 00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,480 Speaker 1: like leak to the Washington posts that oh, we're so 872 00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:47,799 Speaker 1: concerned and we really wish they would stop. And I 873 00:43:47,840 --> 00:43:49,440 Speaker 1: was going to mention, you know, with the regard to 874 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: this humanitarian pauses, we know from what Secretary blink And 875 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:55,520 Speaker 1: reportedly told Netnyahu when he was there, it's not about 876 00:43:55,560 --> 00:43:58,040 Speaker 1: actually bringing an end to the conflict. It's about buying 877 00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: time internationally and saving face so that the bombing campaign 878 00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 1: can continue for a lengthier period of time. I referred 879 00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:08,880 Speaker 1: before to the moving of the goalposts in terms of 880 00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:10,960 Speaker 1: where Hamas HQ actually has put this up on the 881 00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: screen from the Financial Times, this is one of the 882 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,719 Speaker 1: things that people were pointing to Israel signals operations in 883 00:44:16,760 --> 00:44:19,880 Speaker 1: southern Gaza after hospital rate. Israel now believe several Hamas 884 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:22,360 Speaker 1: leaders have moved south, with some in conunis. The largest 885 00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,680 Speaker 1: city in southern Gaza. According to several Western officials, some 886 00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,040 Speaker 1: of Israel's allies have asked them to be cautious in 887 00:44:28,080 --> 00:44:30,480 Speaker 1: their operations in the south, where nearly one million palace 888 00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: I needs have fled, after being assured it would be 889 00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:34,920 Speaker 1: safer than the north. Now, first of all, we are 890 00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:37,360 Speaker 1: seeing strikes in the south, they added, and second, operations 891 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:40,640 Speaker 1: in conunits can be incredibly difficult and destructive. Western officials 892 00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:43,240 Speaker 1: said the scale and intensity of Israel's growing ground invasion 893 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,880 Speaker 1: of Gaza has caused concerns, despite consistent support for the 894 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:48,720 Speaker 1: country's right to quote defend itself. I don't think anybody 895 00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:51,960 Speaker 1: meant that this requires ground operations of such a scope. 896 00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,880 Speaker 1: And they've already started this bombing campaign Emily and already 897 00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:00,000 Speaker 1: very clear large death toll and large civilian death tolls, 898 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:02,600 Speaker 1: because this is where everyone is now, this is where 899 00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,399 Speaker 1: everyone was told to flee to, and this is where 900 00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:04,880 Speaker 1: they fled to. 901 00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,319 Speaker 3: Yeah, and again this is we were just talking about this. 902 00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,560 Speaker 4: It's an increasingly big problem for the US government, which 903 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,520 Speaker 4: public opinion is very going to be a very very 904 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:16,200 Speaker 4: tough pressure on Biden. In fact, we're going to talk 905 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,000 Speaker 4: about that with a guest today in all kinds of 906 00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,360 Speaker 4: ways that you know, maybe even people didn't originally expect 907 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:25,480 Speaker 4: the political pressures that would fall on Joe Biden over this. 908 00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:26,359 Speaker 3: I agree with you. 909 00:45:26,440 --> 00:45:31,439 Speaker 4: I think, you know, until there's completely foundationally different conversations 910 00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:35,360 Speaker 4: about US AID, which actually Tablet magazine over the summer, 911 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:40,040 Speaker 4: very pariseral magazine had a fascinating piece about how US 912 00:45:40,120 --> 00:45:43,439 Speaker 4: aid to Israel in some ways is bad for both 913 00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 4: the US and Israel. 914 00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 3: It's a really interesting piece. I recommend people check it out. 915 00:45:47,239 --> 00:45:51,359 Speaker 4: Until some of those foundational conversations start happening. I mean, 916 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,799 Speaker 4: I don't see how anything you know, dramatically changes. I 917 00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,520 Speaker 4: do think the Biden administration is very aware of public 918 00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,280 Speaker 4: opinion and you know, talking to these government about different 919 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,239 Speaker 4: things like this, and is probably. 920 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,360 Speaker 3: Applying some pressure. But you know, short of immense pressure, 921 00:46:06,400 --> 00:46:10,080 Speaker 3: short of sort of foundational conversations about the nature of 922 00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:11,719 Speaker 3: the support. Yeah, I agree with you. 923 00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 4: I don't think there's there's Without having conversations about the 924 00:46:15,880 --> 00:46:18,080 Speaker 4: fundational questions, you don't get foundational change. 925 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:21,279 Speaker 1: And you actually had a report Bertie Sanders, who has 926 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:25,040 Speaker 1: not called for a ceasefire, notably he came out and 927 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,360 Speaker 1: called for conditioning aid to Israel. And there was also 928 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: a report that a number of I think all Democratic 929 00:46:31,840 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: senators have begun that conversation. So that has started to happen, 930 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,520 Speaker 1: you know, at least within the Senate, but with Joe 931 00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,880 Speaker 1: Biden the support has been more or less locked up. 932 00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,440 Speaker 1: The other question here that has always been is okay, 933 00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,640 Speaker 1: so you completely flatten Gaza City. Now you're moving to 934 00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,400 Speaker 1: the south to base, probably completely flatten southern Gaza as well. 935 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: What the hell are you going to do after this 936 00:46:53,840 --> 00:46:55,440 Speaker 1: mission accomplished moment? 937 00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:57,560 Speaker 3: That makes your people safer? 938 00:46:57,760 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: That's right, Yes, that makes your peoples, that makes it 939 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 1: any sort of you know sense, that has any sort 940 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:07,080 Speaker 1: of reasonable humanitarian potentially situation for Palestinians. 941 00:47:07,520 --> 00:47:11,120 Speaker 5: Put this up on the screen. This was really eyebrow raising. 942 00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:16,359 Speaker 1: This is from a health monitor inside Israel's three day 943 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:19,560 Speaker 1: after options for Gaza amid government split. So I've got 944 00:47:19,800 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: a short list here. Number one a role for Egypt. 945 00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,720 Speaker 1: First option, which joins the greatest support among Israeli decision makers, 946 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,560 Speaker 1: is for Egypt to basically take control of the enclave 947 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:32,600 Speaker 1: in return for complete forgiveness of its massive foreign debt. 948 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 5: I mean, this is very adjacent to the ethnic. 949 00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:39,560 Speaker 1: Cleansing plan that was strategically released from the Israeli government 950 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: and that many members of the far right Israeli cabinet 951 00:47:43,120 --> 00:47:45,759 Speaker 1: have been pushing for. Next one is from Ramala to 952 00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,160 Speaker 1: Gaza City. Second option, this is what the US has 953 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:51,240 Speaker 1: been pushing for, is the Palestinian authorities return to Gaza, 954 00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:54,160 Speaker 1: which several Israeli decision makers regard as a bad idea. 955 00:47:54,239 --> 00:47:57,600 Speaker 1: Simply put, it would torpedo the government's ultimate goal of 956 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:01,279 Speaker 1: severing all ties between itself and Gaza. And also it 957 00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:04,840 Speaker 1: would make it so that there was one unified leadership 958 00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:07,879 Speaker 1: between the West Bank and Gaza, which would take off 959 00:48:07,880 --> 00:48:09,799 Speaker 1: the table, you know, their talking point of like, oh, 960 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: we have no one to negotiate with in terms of 961 00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:13,560 Speaker 1: a two state solution. So it would make a two 962 00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: state solution more possible and more viable, so that they 963 00:48:18,360 --> 00:48:20,839 Speaker 1: don't want that, even though that's what the US has 964 00:48:20,840 --> 00:48:22,440 Speaker 1: been pushing. There are other problems, by the way, I'll 965 00:48:22,480 --> 00:48:24,439 Speaker 1: get into a minute with the idea that the PA 966 00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:26,839 Speaker 1: could take over Gaza, and the last one is an 967 00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:29,719 Speaker 1: international coalition. The third option is handing the keys to 968 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:33,000 Speaker 1: an international coalition consisting of Arab countries and Ornato. 969 00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:34,760 Speaker 5: The EU or the UN. 970 00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:38,320 Speaker 1: We also have been floated as part of this international coalition, 971 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:40,080 Speaker 1: to which I would certainly say hell no. 972 00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 4: Which by the way, is basically how the West Bank 973 00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:47,479 Speaker 4: and Jerusalem in particular is run. Right now, it's under 974 00:48:47,520 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 4: control of Jordan, but there's also international cooperation with how 975 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:52,919 Speaker 4: it works, and so we kind of have a test 976 00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:54,960 Speaker 4: case of how well it works, and the answer is. 977 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,040 Speaker 3: Not very Yeah. 978 00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:59,320 Speaker 1: Well so in the PA, you know that theoretically is 979 00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: the governing body in the West Bank has zero legitimacy. 980 00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:04,600 Speaker 1: And this is sort of intentional again from the Israeli 981 00:49:04,640 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 1: government has zero legitimacy within the West Bank. They are accurately, 982 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:13,160 Speaker 1: i would say, seen as effectively collaborators with the Israeli 983 00:49:13,200 --> 00:49:14,319 Speaker 1: security establishment. 984 00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:15,720 Speaker 5: And so that's why I say. 985 00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,120 Speaker 1: There's you know, there's a lot of issues with the 986 00:49:17,160 --> 00:49:20,080 Speaker 1: idea that you're just going to nation build and install 987 00:49:20,200 --> 00:49:23,240 Speaker 1: your chosen ruler of you know, Makmudabas and the PA 988 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,319 Speaker 1: in the Gaza strip, where they have zero you know, 989 00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,799 Speaker 1: popular support, legitimate legitimacy, they already have no support also 990 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: or legitimacy really in the West Bank. 991 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:34,320 Speaker 5: Either within that international coalition. 992 00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:38,000 Speaker 1: Hard though one of the things they float here as 993 00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:42,080 Speaker 1: an idea that people are talking about is completely insane. 994 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,719 Speaker 1: They want to construct a huge artificial island off the 995 00:49:46,760 --> 00:49:47,800 Speaker 1: coast of Gaza. 996 00:49:47,880 --> 00:49:48,360 Speaker 5: Quote. 997 00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:51,440 Speaker 1: It will be cheaper and faster than rebuilding the Gaza 998 00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: strip itself. A very senior former security official told this 999 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:58,359 Speaker 1: paper seeing and promote his brainchild. There is technology, means 1000 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,960 Speaker 1: in money. Abu Dhabi in dubai I have huge numbers 1001 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:03,720 Speaker 1: of such artificial islands which you become hubs of tourism, commerce, 1002 00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,680 Speaker 1: housing and infrastructure. It's relatively easy, it's cheap that will 1003 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,120 Speaker 1: allow everyone to turn over. 1004 00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:08,600 Speaker 5: A new leaf. 1005 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:12,239 Speaker 1: The Gazmins will receive new land with efficient infrastructure that 1006 00:50:12,320 --> 00:50:15,640 Speaker 1: will no longer be a land border between Israel and Gaza. 1007 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:16,560 Speaker 5: The source warrant. 1008 00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: Any attempt to rebuild Gaza is doomed given the massive 1009 00:50:20,040 --> 00:50:23,760 Speaker 1: underground tunnel network into which everything could collapse. The underground 1010 00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,160 Speaker 1: city will suck up what is above it. Disaster is 1011 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:28,520 Speaker 1: yet to come. The former security official set the island 1012 00:50:28,560 --> 00:50:32,560 Speaker 1: could be a pretty good solution. So they're like pitching 1013 00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,800 Speaker 1: this like it's some resort destination and like it'll be 1014 00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,919 Speaker 1: great for everyone. The whole nature of this conflict, which 1015 00:50:38,960 --> 00:50:41,480 Speaker 1: often gets framed in religious terms, but it's really a 1016 00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,360 Speaker 1: land dispute, and so what you're talking about here is 1017 00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:48,480 Speaker 1: completely pushing them off of the land that they are 1018 00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:51,760 Speaker 1: claiming and entitled to by the way, And it's also 1019 00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: very revealing about the extent of the utter devastation and 1020 00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,760 Speaker 1: destruction which has already been unleashed in the Gaza strip 1021 00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:02,040 Speaker 1: that they're like, there's nothing to go back to, we 1022 00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:04,400 Speaker 1: can't even rebuild it. It'd be easier to build a 1023 00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,600 Speaker 1: whole separate island where we can then keep you for 1024 00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,879 Speaker 1: in prison than to try to rebuild Gadza City, which 1025 00:51:09,960 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: is uninhabitable. 1026 00:51:11,040 --> 00:51:14,839 Speaker 4: Now, this is the most Western Galaxy brain solution that 1027 00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,839 Speaker 4: you could possibly joke about it, I mean that would 1028 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,400 Speaker 4: come up with it's satire because again, to your point, 1029 00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:24,240 Speaker 4: this is a land conflict, and the land conflict obviously, 1030 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:26,759 Speaker 4: whoever came up with the solution whenever security officials talking 1031 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:29,759 Speaker 4: to the media and floating the solution, understands that fundamentally 1032 00:51:29,800 --> 00:51:32,080 Speaker 4: this is a land conflict. But they have this end 1033 00:51:32,080 --> 00:51:35,799 Speaker 4: of history Western Galaxy brain idea that it just needs 1034 00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,520 Speaker 4: more land, that people will be satisfied if you just 1035 00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,839 Speaker 4: give them a brand new hunk of fabricated land in 1036 00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:45,520 Speaker 4: the middle of the ocean, as opposed to the land 1037 00:51:45,600 --> 00:51:47,880 Speaker 4: is important to them because there are holy sites on 1038 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:48,279 Speaker 4: the land. 1039 00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 3: The land is important to them. 1040 00:51:49,600 --> 00:51:53,000 Speaker 4: They're fighting, they're spilling blood over the land because of 1041 00:51:53,120 --> 00:51:57,040 Speaker 4: that particular land and its connection to their families, to 1042 00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,480 Speaker 4: their faiths, to their sense. 1043 00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 3: Of honor and dignity. 1044 00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,720 Speaker 4: And so this idea that we'll just create new land 1045 00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,640 Speaker 4: and everyone will be happy with it is again like 1046 00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,040 Speaker 4: it is so perfectly representative of this like end of history, 1047 00:52:10,040 --> 00:52:13,279 Speaker 4: a Western idea about how to solve conflicts. And we 1048 00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:17,600 Speaker 4: have a really hard time understanding here in the United States, 1049 00:52:17,760 --> 00:52:21,359 Speaker 4: in our sort of comfortable world, why people would fight 1050 00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:23,640 Speaker 4: that bitterly over their land. It's hard for people to 1051 00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,200 Speaker 4: wrap their brains around. But there are holy sites in Gaza. 1052 00:52:27,239 --> 00:52:29,080 Speaker 4: It's not just the West Bank. There are holy sites 1053 00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 4: in Gaza that matter a lot to people. 1054 00:52:31,880 --> 00:52:34,560 Speaker 1: I think it actually sort of reminds me of the 1055 00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:39,320 Speaker 1: thinking of some like libertarians and also a lot of liberals. 1056 00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,320 Speaker 1: That's like or neoliberals, I should say, that's like, oh, 1057 00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:47,640 Speaker 1: your factory town in the US is destroyed, just moved 1058 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:50,239 Speaker 1: to New York or just moved to like San Francisco 1059 00:52:50,480 --> 00:52:53,160 Speaker 1: and learned to code. And it's like I say, this 1060 00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:55,879 Speaker 1: is someone who still lives in the hometown where I. 1061 00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:58,400 Speaker 5: Was born and raised. Place is important to people. 1062 00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:01,920 Speaker 1: You know, this is no La or San Francisco or 1063 00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,839 Speaker 1: whatever is not my home. This is my home and 1064 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:07,799 Speaker 1: that matters to me. So yeah, I mean, it's just 1065 00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,359 Speaker 1: I guess what I'll say finally on all of this 1066 00:53:11,680 --> 00:53:14,200 Speaker 1: is all of these options are bad. All of them 1067 00:53:14,200 --> 00:53:18,720 Speaker 1: are horrific. You know, you have a situation now where, 1068 00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,799 Speaker 1: in the name of quote unquote eradicating Hamas, which is 1069 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:25,719 Speaker 1: an impossible goal, you've killed thousands upon thousands at the 1070 00:53:25,800 --> 00:53:29,040 Speaker 1: number I saw this, between twelve and sixteen thousand civilians 1071 00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,880 Speaker 1: killed at this point, you know, a huge number of 1072 00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:36,920 Speaker 1: children killed, huge number of children orphaned. And for every 1073 00:53:36,960 --> 00:53:42,120 Speaker 1: Hamas person that you have taken out, how many more radicals. 1074 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,800 Speaker 5: Have you created with this destruction? 1075 00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,920 Speaker 1: So you know, one of the things we keep talking 1076 00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,520 Speaker 1: about is the lessons that should have been learned after 1077 00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,799 Speaker 1: nine to eleven. And there is no doubt that the 1078 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,719 Speaker 1: actions we took after nine to eleven actually made us 1079 00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: less safe. And I think that's incredibly clear here as well, 1080 00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:02,680 Speaker 1: And it becomes even clearer when you look at the 1081 00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:07,160 Speaker 1: preposterous ideas that are being floated for the post war scenario, 1082 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:11,840 Speaker 1: everything from you know, outright ethnic cleansing, pushing people completely 1083 00:54:11,840 --> 00:54:14,239 Speaker 1: off of the land into the desert in Egypt and 1084 00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:18,720 Speaker 1: basically using Egypt's debt load to force their compliance in Israel. 1085 00:54:18,920 --> 00:54:21,040 Speaker 1: That's there is I don't think there's any doubt at 1086 00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,359 Speaker 1: this point that that is their top choice. The only 1087 00:54:23,440 --> 00:54:26,640 Speaker 1: question is whether the US, Egypt and other players are cold, 1088 00:54:26,760 --> 00:54:29,239 Speaker 1: you know, cajoled and convinced to go along. 1089 00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,120 Speaker 4: With it, and whether that makes anyone more safe, because 1090 00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,040 Speaker 4: one of the reasons Egypt doesn't want that is they 1091 00:54:33,080 --> 00:54:36,399 Speaker 4: think it will actually advance the Muslim Brotherhood's cause because 1092 00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:39,520 Speaker 4: you have a bunch of radicalized people who just watched 1093 00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:42,880 Speaker 4: their land again turned into a quote parking lot to 1094 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,719 Speaker 4: quote Max Miller, and are now in a new country 1095 00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,880 Speaker 4: where there are sort of even the embers of the 1096 00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:53,640 Speaker 4: Muslim Brotherhood and you can easily come back in and 1097 00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:55,919 Speaker 4: imagine how that makes Israel significantly less safe. 1098 00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:57,120 Speaker 5: Again, Yeah, that's true too. 1099 00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,719 Speaker 1: And then you know everything from that, from the ethnic 1100 00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,960 Speaker 1: club solution to the let's build them their own island, 1101 00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,360 Speaker 1: which also by the way pushing them off their land 1102 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 1: is you know, I would say that is still ethnic cleansing. 1103 00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,960 Speaker 1: But anyway, that's where we are, that's what we know, 1104 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:15,440 Speaker 1: and it is it's hideous. I mean, it's just horrendous 1105 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,279 Speaker 1: what is happening. And you know, it's very bleak what 1106 00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:20,560 Speaker 1: the future could look like as well. Even after this, 1107 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:23,120 Speaker 1: they had their quote unquote mission accomplish moment. 1108 00:55:25,840 --> 00:55:28,399 Speaker 4: Crystal, I'm fascinated to talk about this next block because 1109 00:55:28,440 --> 00:55:30,080 Speaker 4: it's been massively viral. 1110 00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,839 Speaker 3: But the question is why. Yeah, the question is how 1111 00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:33,719 Speaker 3: organic the ver. 1112 00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:35,719 Speaker 5: I've been excited to talk to you about this one. 1113 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,360 Speaker 4: It's interesting for a lot of reasons. It's interesting on 1114 00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:41,000 Speaker 4: the sort of tech front, but it's also interesting on 1115 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,719 Speaker 4: the kind of gen z the new sort of discussion 1116 00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,040 Speaker 4: about how people see this country, how people see their 1117 00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:51,320 Speaker 4: role in the world. So if people haven't heard obviously 1118 00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,880 Speaker 4: this blew up late last week, but Osama bin Laden's 1119 00:55:55,239 --> 00:55:57,960 Speaker 4: infamous letter to America that ended up on the internet 1120 00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,719 Speaker 4: in two thousand and two. Somehow someone got their hands 1121 00:56:00,760 --> 00:56:02,600 Speaker 4: on it. I think it was The Guardian that originally 1122 00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:05,239 Speaker 4: got their hands on it two thousand and two. It 1123 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:09,239 Speaker 4: is going around the internet. Back in the day when 1124 00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:11,239 Speaker 4: it was a series of tubes, as al Gore would 1125 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,120 Speaker 4: have said. But was that al Gore that said series 1126 00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:14,480 Speaker 4: of tubes? 1127 00:56:14,520 --> 00:56:14,800 Speaker 10: Christal? 1128 00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,080 Speaker 5: I think it sounds right, so I'll go with it, the. 1129 00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:18,680 Speaker 3: Series of tubes that made up the Internet. 1130 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:23,640 Speaker 4: But this letter started to make the rounds everyone thought 1131 00:56:23,719 --> 00:56:26,360 Speaker 4: on TikTok over the course of the last week. It 1132 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,560 Speaker 4: turns out that's not exactly the case. So let's put 1133 00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,440 Speaker 4: the first element up on the screen here. So yaeshar 1134 00:56:32,480 --> 00:56:34,799 Speaker 4: al Lee, Christal, I don't even know how to begin 1135 00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:37,880 Speaker 4: describing you, Charlie. If you don't know about Yashar Alie, 1136 00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:42,239 Speaker 4: basically a prolific user of Twitter, prolific user of x 1137 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,799 Speaker 4: who has had quite an interesting background, you can google 1138 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:46,600 Speaker 4: it because there's no reason for us to dive into 1139 00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:50,200 Speaker 4: the particulars of all of it. Very friendly with Kathy Griffin, 1140 00:56:50,239 --> 00:56:52,759 Speaker 4: although not anymore. It's all up in the air. But 1141 00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:56,840 Speaker 4: Charlie posts. Over the past twenty four hours, thousands of 1142 00:56:56,880 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 4: tiktoks at least have been posted where people shared just 1143 00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:02,560 Speaker 4: how they read bin Laden's how they just read bin 1144 00:57:02,640 --> 00:57:06,080 Speaker 4: Laden's quote infamous quote letter to America, in which she explained. 1145 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:07,240 Speaker 3: Why he attacked the United States. 1146 00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:09,799 Speaker 4: Now, one particular thing to keep in mind there with 1147 00:57:09,840 --> 00:57:12,920 Speaker 4: what I just read is he says thousands of tiktoks 1148 00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:16,439 Speaker 4: at least. So then he continues and says the tiktoks 1149 00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:20,000 Speaker 4: are from people of all ages, racist ethnicities, and backgrounds. 1150 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:22,760 Speaker 4: Many of them say that reading the letter has opened 1151 00:57:22,800 --> 00:57:26,960 Speaker 4: their eyes and they'll never see geopolitical matters the same way. 1152 00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:29,040 Speaker 3: Again. Many of them, and I've watched a lot. 1153 00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:32,680 Speaker 4: Ya Shark continues, say it has made them reevaluate their 1154 00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,560 Speaker 4: perspective on how what is often labeled as terrorism can 1155 00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:41,760 Speaker 4: be a legitimate form of resistance to hostile power. All right, 1156 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,040 Speaker 4: let's put the next element up on the screen right here. 1157 00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:49,680 Speaker 4: This is actually going to be This is from if 1158 00:57:49,720 --> 00:57:52,560 Speaker 4: we put the next one up here, this is Oh sorry, 1159 00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:53,840 Speaker 4: I was like at the wrong block. This is going 1160 00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:57,640 Speaker 4: to be the video compilation of that. Yashar posted of 1161 00:57:57,760 --> 00:58:01,280 Speaker 4: people saying they've just read bin laden Letter to America 1162 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,680 Speaker 4: and have had their eyes opened up for the first time. 1163 00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:07,560 Speaker 3: So take a listen to what your sharp posted this morning. 1164 00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,440 Speaker 13: I read Letter to America, which is Osama bin Laden's 1165 00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:17,600 Speaker 13: letter to America explaining why he attacked Americans, and I 1166 00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:21,360 Speaker 13: am ashamed to say that I not only have never 1167 00:58:21,480 --> 00:58:25,240 Speaker 13: read this letter, but I didn't even know this letter existed. 1168 00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:27,600 Speaker 14: And I feel the same exact way I felt when 1169 00:58:27,640 --> 00:58:33,080 Speaker 14: I was deconstructing Christianity. I feel a little bit just confused, 1170 00:58:33,120 --> 00:58:35,400 Speaker 14: like I have entered into another timeline. 1171 00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:36,080 Speaker 5: What is this? 1172 00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:42,680 Speaker 7: So I just read a letter to America and I 1173 00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,200 Speaker 7: will never look at life the same. I will never 1174 00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:49,320 Speaker 7: look at this country the same. In the last twenty minutes, 1175 00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 7: my entire viewpoint on the entire life I have believed 1176 00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:57,240 Speaker 7: and I have lived, has changed. 1177 00:58:57,280 --> 00:59:00,600 Speaker 15: It becomes apparent to me that the actually nine to 1178 00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,160 Speaker 15: eleven and those acts committed against the USA and its 1179 00:59:04,200 --> 00:59:06,920 Speaker 15: people were all just the build up of our government 1180 00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,720 Speaker 15: failing other nations. 1181 00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:11,920 Speaker 4: All right, So let's put up how Glenn reacted to 1182 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:15,560 Speaker 4: The Guardian pulling the letter down off. 1183 00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,440 Speaker 3: Of their website. 1184 00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,480 Speaker 4: So Glenn Greenwall tweets The Guardian's removal of the bin 1185 00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:20,919 Speaker 4: laden letter from its site after twenty one years until 1186 00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,080 Speaker 4: Americans started to read it completely backfired. The Washington Post 1187 00:59:25,080 --> 00:59:28,480 Speaker 4: says the removal actually spurred even more interest, and TikTok 1188 00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,640 Speaker 4: is now aggressively banning discussion of the letter, and that's 1189 00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:36,880 Speaker 4: the next element, we can just throw that up Immediately, 1190 00:59:37,000 --> 00:59:41,080 Speaker 4: TikTok comes out and says, content promoting this letter clearly 1191 00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:46,520 Speaker 4: violates our rules on supporting any form of terrorism. We 1192 00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:51,400 Speaker 4: are proactively and aggressively removing this content and investigating how 1193 00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:56,040 Speaker 4: it got onto our platform. Well, Chris, so the Washington 1194 00:59:56,080 --> 00:59:59,360 Speaker 4: Post actually started investigating this and came to some interesting 1195 00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,720 Speaker 4: conclusion that tell us so much actually about social media 1196 01:00:04,040 --> 01:00:07,520 Speaker 4: and the news media. The fascinating kind of pipeline from 1197 01:00:07,800 --> 01:00:10,600 Speaker 4: the people think of Covington Catholic. You had the snippet 1198 01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:12,760 Speaker 4: of a video that's going viral on Twitter at the 1199 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,760 Speaker 4: time and suddenly ends up in the Washington Post and CNN, 1200 01:00:16,080 --> 01:00:18,680 Speaker 4: and people hadn't really taken the time to do their 1201 01:00:18,760 --> 01:00:21,640 Speaker 4: due diligence. They had just, you know, these professional reporters 1202 01:00:21,680 --> 01:00:23,800 Speaker 4: making lots of money here in Washington, DC and New 1203 01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:27,760 Speaker 4: York ran with these ridiculous stories. Well, that's actually kind 1204 01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:30,240 Speaker 4: of at the heart of this too, because it's a 1205 01:00:30,240 --> 01:00:34,600 Speaker 4: striisand effect conversation and essence which the striisand effect is basically, 1206 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 4: once you publicly complain about something, you know, saying that 1207 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 4: it's getting too much attention, it'll get much more attention 1208 01:00:41,880 --> 01:00:44,160 Speaker 4: that there may have not organically been that much attention 1209 01:00:44,240 --> 01:00:45,600 Speaker 4: on it in the first place. So if we put 1210 01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:48,800 Speaker 4: the next element up. Washington Post looked into the sort 1211 01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,880 Speaker 4: of source of the virality here and came to some, 1212 01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:56,320 Speaker 4: i mean, just fascinating conclusions, one of which was that 1213 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:58,720 Speaker 4: if you look at the Google trends and this is 1214 01:00:58,800 --> 01:01:01,840 Speaker 4: the next element, there's a there's a lot of stuff 1215 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,840 Speaker 4: to go through here, because the Washington Post found a 1216 01:01:03,840 --> 01:01:05,200 Speaker 4: lot of evidence here. 1217 01:01:06,120 --> 01:01:09,120 Speaker 3: This is Ryan Broderick. He runs a newsletter. 1218 01:01:09,720 --> 01:01:13,040 Speaker 4: He's saying if you look at the Google trends, he says, 1219 01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,040 Speaker 4: there are folks in my replies saying that Google Trends 1220 01:01:15,080 --> 01:01:17,360 Speaker 4: proves the bin laden letter was already going viral before 1221 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:19,680 Speaker 4: it was shared on Twitter slash acts I marked below 1222 01:01:19,720 --> 01:01:21,720 Speaker 4: when it was tweeted. Yes, there was some interest. I 1223 01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:24,200 Speaker 4: never said there wasn't, but it was plateauing. After the tweet, 1224 01:01:24,200 --> 01:01:27,000 Speaker 4: the interest doubled. The Washington Post also talked about this 1225 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,040 Speaker 4: Google Trends data, basically saying that that TikTok did kind 1226 01:01:30,040 --> 01:01:32,000 Speaker 4: of make it viral, but that wasn't the whole story. 1227 01:01:32,040 --> 01:01:32,560 Speaker 3: And that's right. 1228 01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,640 Speaker 4: If you look at this, people had started googling Osaba 1229 01:01:35,680 --> 01:01:40,080 Speaker 4: bin Laden's letter to America basically on this timeline, like 1230 01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:44,680 Speaker 4: roughly over the past few weeks. Then he's pinpointed right there. 1231 01:01:45,080 --> 01:01:46,959 Speaker 4: If you're watching this, you can see there's a little 1232 01:01:46,960 --> 01:01:49,240 Speaker 4: blue dot with a circle around it when the yeshar 1233 01:01:49,280 --> 01:01:52,760 Speaker 4: Ali tweet is posted, and it spikes right after that, 1234 01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:55,760 Speaker 4: So it's going up before and then spikes right after it. 1235 01:01:55,800 --> 01:01:59,360 Speaker 4: That would be the streis in effect illustrated here pretty 1236 01:01:59,680 --> 01:02:05,080 Speaker 4: gig neatly conveniently, so, Crystal, there's also, as Sager says, 1237 01:02:05,200 --> 01:02:07,880 Speaker 4: and this next tweet, we can put Sager up on 1238 01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:09,920 Speaker 4: the screen because even when he's not with us, he 1239 01:02:10,040 --> 01:02:13,800 Speaker 4: is always with Sager says, if you're going to read 1240 01:02:13,840 --> 01:02:15,560 Speaker 4: the bin Laden letter and think it's somehow profound, you 1241 01:02:15,560 --> 01:02:17,360 Speaker 4: should probably read to the end. Is why he says 1242 01:02:17,400 --> 01:02:19,680 Speaker 4: there are no such thing as innocent American civilians and 1243 01:02:19,720 --> 01:02:22,320 Speaker 4: why three thousand innocents deserve to die in nine to eleven. 1244 01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:24,919 Speaker 4: And I think the implication there, Crystal, is that it's 1245 01:02:25,040 --> 01:02:29,120 Speaker 4: also the argument kind of being rolled out by Israel 1246 01:02:29,120 --> 01:02:32,680 Speaker 4: that there's no such thing as an innocent civilian in Gaza. 1247 01:02:32,720 --> 01:02:34,840 Speaker 4: We've heard people in the United States make that argument 1248 01:02:34,880 --> 01:02:37,520 Speaker 4: as well. And this is where the power of the 1249 01:02:37,560 --> 01:02:40,920 Speaker 4: bin Laden letter comes from. That, you know, a TikTok 1250 01:02:40,960 --> 01:02:43,840 Speaker 4: banning it horrible idea, horrible idea as dumb as I 1251 01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:46,040 Speaker 4: think the people who are posting about it is. This 1252 01:02:46,120 --> 01:02:48,600 Speaker 4: is the dumbest idea ever because what you're doing is 1253 01:02:48,640 --> 01:02:51,280 Speaker 4: making it seem more forbidden. And the power of this 1254 01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 4: history if you read this letter, which is actually a 1255 01:02:53,600 --> 01:02:57,240 Speaker 4: very useful piece of historical context, if you read this letter, 1256 01:02:57,480 --> 01:02:59,160 Speaker 4: it is so powerful to you if you're a young 1257 01:02:59,200 --> 01:03:02,400 Speaker 4: American who does doesn't remember nine to eleven precisely because 1258 01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:05,080 Speaker 4: nobody has ever told you that this is what been 1259 01:03:05,160 --> 01:03:08,200 Speaker 4: Laden fought, precisely, because nobody has ever told you this 1260 01:03:08,280 --> 01:03:09,960 Speaker 4: is how other people on the other side of the 1261 01:03:09,960 --> 01:03:12,400 Speaker 4: world see the United States go. And actually just did 1262 01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:15,160 Speaker 4: a really interesting interview on his show with David Talbot, 1263 01:03:15,200 --> 01:03:18,600 Speaker 4: who wrote Devil's Chessboard, about great book all of these 1264 01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,040 Speaker 4: things the CIA has been doing in other countries, especially 1265 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:23,440 Speaker 4: in the Middle East, that Americans don't know about, but 1266 01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:26,880 Speaker 4: that loom very large in places like Syria, in places 1267 01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:31,560 Speaker 4: like Iran, in places like Iraq, in places like Afghanistan. 1268 01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:35,360 Speaker 4: That's where the power comes in from the bin laden letter. 1269 01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:36,800 Speaker 4: That's how that stuff goes viral. 1270 01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,520 Speaker 1: So first, let me talk about some of the content 1271 01:03:39,640 --> 01:03:42,000 Speaker 1: of the tiktoks, which we showed you a few of, 1272 01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:44,440 Speaker 1: and there were others, you know, the ones that we 1273 01:03:44,600 --> 01:03:48,240 Speaker 1: showed actually zero issue with because I think what people 1274 01:03:48,720 --> 01:03:51,439 Speaker 1: my sense of what people are reacting to and why 1275 01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:52,920 Speaker 1: they're like, oh my god, I feel like I've been 1276 01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,560 Speaker 1: lied to my whole life is because what sold to 1277 01:03:55,600 --> 01:03:59,360 Speaker 1: the American public is this very cartoonish like access of evil, 1278 01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,040 Speaker 1: good versus evil. They hate us because we're free, like 1279 01:04:02,480 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: you know, they just came out of nowhere and these 1280 01:04:04,640 --> 01:04:07,040 Speaker 1: are just bad people or the culture's bad, or the 1281 01:04:07,080 --> 01:04:09,640 Speaker 1: religion's bad. It's just evil. There's nothing you could do 1282 01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,280 Speaker 1: about it. And there is an element of that. And 1283 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:14,040 Speaker 1: if you read the letter too, by the way, there 1284 01:04:14,120 --> 01:04:16,400 Speaker 1: is a lot of it that is, you know, there's 1285 01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:19,880 Speaker 1: like horrors in there and completely anti Semitic and anti 1286 01:04:19,920 --> 01:04:20,720 Speaker 1: gay and all this stuff. 1287 01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:21,480 Speaker 3: That's an excellment. 1288 01:04:21,800 --> 01:04:23,520 Speaker 1: Right, Well, we'll get yeah, and we could put that 1289 01:04:23,600 --> 01:04:25,560 Speaker 1: up on the screen. Emily actually flag this some of 1290 01:04:25,560 --> 01:04:28,320 Speaker 1: what he you know, objects to. We call you to 1291 01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,760 Speaker 1: be a people of manners, principles, honor, and purity to 1292 01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:34,360 Speaker 1: reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, and toxic and 1293 01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:39,040 Speaker 1: gambling and trading with interest. But you know, there are 1294 01:04:39,080 --> 01:04:43,919 Speaker 1: also things in there that are legitimate foreign policy grievances, 1295 01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:47,280 Speaker 1: which if you are going to be someone like bin 1296 01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:53,600 Speaker 1: Laden who inspires this like horrific terrorist movement that took 1297 01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,920 Speaker 1: hold among some group of people, there has to be 1298 01:04:57,040 --> 01:05:00,600 Speaker 1: some core grievance that is actually real well, and that's 1299 01:05:00,640 --> 01:05:04,080 Speaker 1: why people study, you know, what enabled the rise of Hitler? 1300 01:05:04,360 --> 01:05:07,440 Speaker 1: What was Hitler saying about his own justifications? What were 1301 01:05:07,480 --> 01:05:10,600 Speaker 1: the social and political and economic conditions that led to 1302 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:13,440 Speaker 1: the rise of Hitler and Nazism in Germany. It's not 1303 01:05:13,560 --> 01:05:18,640 Speaker 1: because they support Hitler or Nazism. It's because it's important 1304 01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:22,520 Speaker 1: to understand the conditions that led to this result. It's 1305 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,520 Speaker 1: part of also, you know what people are talking about 1306 01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:27,760 Speaker 1: with understanding the history of Israel and Palestine that you 1307 01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,160 Speaker 1: know leads to October seventh. It's not to say, oh, 1308 01:05:30,160 --> 01:05:32,840 Speaker 1: October seventh was justified and it was fine for them 1309 01:05:32,840 --> 01:05:36,080 Speaker 1: to attack civilians. It's listen, if you cage a people 1310 01:05:36,400 --> 01:05:40,160 Speaker 1: and you have them in this open air prison for decades, yeah, 1311 01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:43,400 Speaker 1: you can expect that there's going to be some horrific, violent, 1312 01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:48,800 Speaker 1: dangerous results. So I actually fully support people reading the 1313 01:05:49,000 --> 01:05:51,920 Speaker 1: Letter to America from Bin Laden to have a deeper 1314 01:05:52,040 --> 01:05:56,800 Speaker 1: understanding of a of a horrific and traumatizing, you know, 1315 01:05:57,120 --> 01:06:00,360 Speaker 1: in a lot of ways seminal moment in American histay, 1316 01:06:00,640 --> 01:06:03,360 Speaker 1: to have some of it's important to understand what your 1317 01:06:03,440 --> 01:06:06,480 Speaker 1: adversaries and enemies are saying about why they do the 1318 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,600 Speaker 1: things that they do. And it's also ironic to me, Emily, 1319 01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:11,680 Speaker 1: because we showed that thing from Sager. We have probably 1320 01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,400 Speaker 1: mentioned Letter to America a number of times on this 1321 01:06:14,480 --> 01:06:18,040 Speaker 1: shows exactly in this context, you guys did this. Yeah, 1322 01:06:18,040 --> 01:06:20,920 Speaker 1: it's our fault. Yeah, we sparked the truth the viral trend. 1323 01:06:21,800 --> 01:06:25,400 Speaker 1: But exactly in this context of okay, if you are 1324 01:06:25,720 --> 01:06:30,560 Speaker 1: going along with the Israeli officials who are like all 1325 01:06:30,600 --> 01:06:34,480 Speaker 1: of the Palestinians are Nazis, Isaac Kurtzog, they're you know, 1326 01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,240 Speaker 1: supposedly like moderate president saying we need to really rethink this, 1327 01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:40,800 Speaker 1: this idea of innocent civilians. It's practically a quote that 1328 01:06:40,840 --> 01:06:43,720 Speaker 1: comes out every day that's basically like, no, they voted 1329 01:06:43,760 --> 01:06:47,000 Speaker 1: for Hamas, they support Hamas, therefore they're not innocent. 1330 01:06:47,280 --> 01:06:50,800 Speaker 5: Therefore they deserve to die, exactly what bin Lan says 1331 01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:51,320 Speaker 5: about us. 1332 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,880 Speaker 1: And by the way, bin Laden has more of a 1333 01:06:53,920 --> 01:06:56,640 Speaker 1: point with America because we are actually democracy, we do 1334 01:06:56,680 --> 01:06:58,720 Speaker 1: actually elect their leadership. These people have not had an 1335 01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:01,720 Speaker 1: election for Hamas, most of most of the population of 1336 01:07:01,760 --> 01:07:04,760 Speaker 1: the Gaza Strip wasn't even alive when they had their 1337 01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:05,640 Speaker 1: last election. 1338 01:07:06,280 --> 01:07:07,920 Speaker 5: All of this is horrific. 1339 01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:11,600 Speaker 1: None of it justifies attacks on innocent civilians. So it's 1340 01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:15,200 Speaker 1: important to understand that if you're going along with the 1341 01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:18,400 Speaker 1: Israelis when they're saying, yeah, there's no innocent civilians because look, 1342 01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,080 Speaker 1: they like Hamas and they voted for Hamas, you are 1343 01:07:21,120 --> 01:07:24,600 Speaker 1: bolstering the very same argument that bin Laden made to 1344 01:07:24,920 --> 01:07:28,440 Speaker 1: massacre innocent civilians in America. And also, by the way, 1345 01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:31,560 Speaker 1: you are bolstering the very argument that Hamas would make 1346 01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,320 Speaker 1: about why there are no innocent Israelis and why it 1347 01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,960 Speaker 1: was perfectly fine and justified for Israeli civilians to be 1348 01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:41,120 Speaker 1: massacred on October seventh and in suicide attacks and other 1349 01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:43,520 Speaker 1: attacks and you know, firing rockets, et cetera. 1350 01:07:43,360 --> 01:07:44,680 Speaker 5: Et cetera over the years. 1351 01:07:45,120 --> 01:07:48,840 Speaker 1: You should reject all of that and so I actually 1352 01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:51,160 Speaker 1: think it's a good thing for people to be reading 1353 01:07:51,160 --> 01:07:53,560 Speaker 1: the letter. Now, let me also say Emily that there 1354 01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:56,320 Speaker 1: were also some of these tiktoks that were like bin 1355 01:07:56,440 --> 01:08:00,000 Speaker 1: Laden was right, no nuts, Ben Laanen was not right. 1356 01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:04,440 Speaker 1: All right, let's not let's this No, absolutely not. But 1357 01:08:05,080 --> 01:08:06,920 Speaker 1: do I think they should be banned? Do I think 1358 01:08:06,960 --> 01:08:09,840 Speaker 1: TikTok should pull this down because of this you know, 1359 01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:15,400 Speaker 1: idiotic facil and you know, immature and completely wrong take. No, 1360 01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:17,720 Speaker 1: I don't think they should have taken it down. I 1361 01:08:17,720 --> 01:08:22,040 Speaker 1: think it's absurd that the Guardian something is popular on 1362 01:08:22,080 --> 01:08:24,240 Speaker 1: your website and that's like a red flag to you. 1363 01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:26,120 Speaker 1: Isn't that the whole reason you have things on your 1364 01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,400 Speaker 1: website is for people to find them and read them 1365 01:08:28,400 --> 01:08:31,880 Speaker 1: and engage with them. That's insane to me. And Glenn 1366 01:08:31,880 --> 01:08:33,880 Speaker 1: also made a good point because it's it's mostly the 1367 01:08:33,960 --> 01:08:36,759 Speaker 1: right that's like, you know, these dumb zoomer TikTok kids 1368 01:08:36,800 --> 01:08:38,479 Speaker 1: like they love Hamas and they're evil and they hate 1369 01:08:38,479 --> 01:08:40,599 Speaker 1: America and now they love bin Laen, etcetera, etcetera, which 1370 01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:42,960 Speaker 1: is just like a fastile, preposterous rating of what's going 1371 01:08:43,040 --> 01:08:44,920 Speaker 1: on here. And also, you know, we showed you the 1372 01:08:45,000 --> 01:08:47,479 Speaker 1: data of this wasn't even that much of a thing 1373 01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:49,320 Speaker 1: until it got called attention to and you had a 1374 01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:51,640 Speaker 1: bunch of people rocketing in to be like, Oh, what 1375 01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:54,760 Speaker 1: are these dumb kids actually think? But you know, up 1376 01:08:54,840 --> 01:08:58,400 Speaker 1: until very recently, there was this whole effort to release 1377 01:08:59,000 --> 01:09:03,160 Speaker 1: that school shooter manifesto that was being kept Audriaill. Yes, 1378 01:09:03,280 --> 01:09:06,200 Speaker 1: that was being kept hidden. And the idea there wasn't 1379 01:09:06,520 --> 01:09:09,839 Speaker 1: we want to read her writings because we support her massacre. 1380 01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:11,160 Speaker 5: No, it was, hey, we want to. 1381 01:09:11,400 --> 01:09:12,720 Speaker 1: I mean, it was kind of like we want to 1382 01:09:12,760 --> 01:09:14,960 Speaker 1: own the libs and left and whatever, but it was like, 1383 01:09:15,200 --> 01:09:17,640 Speaker 1: we want to understand what radicalized this person. We want 1384 01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:20,240 Speaker 1: to read her words and her justification. And the very 1385 01:09:20,240 --> 01:09:22,440 Speaker 1: same principlelies. 1386 01:09:21,520 --> 01:09:24,519 Speaker 4: Here again, like this is powerful because we don't tell 1387 01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,080 Speaker 4: this version of history. And I actually think that the 1388 01:09:27,280 --> 01:09:30,000 Speaker 4: right vastly underestimates how. 1389 01:09:30,040 --> 01:09:30,760 Speaker 3: Powerful this is. 1390 01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:33,080 Speaker 4: With Generation Z and the kids that are going to 1391 01:09:33,120 --> 01:09:35,160 Speaker 4: be younger than them, who don't remember nine to eleven, 1392 01:09:35,400 --> 01:09:37,840 Speaker 4: we're learning about nine to eleven because the Internet has 1393 01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,160 Speaker 4: democratized the way we tell stories about ourselves as a country, 1394 01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:44,200 Speaker 4: and there are really important elements of that story that 1395 01:09:44,320 --> 01:09:48,200 Speaker 4: we are not honest with ourselves about there, for example, 1396 01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:51,080 Speaker 4: asom Bin Laden, the Taliban al Qaeda. 1397 01:09:51,439 --> 01:09:52,880 Speaker 3: We can go back to the Cold War and. 1398 01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,719 Speaker 4: The Musa Haden and have these really serious conversations about 1399 01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:01,400 Speaker 4: nuclear war policy during the Cold and how actually some 1400 01:10:01,560 --> 01:10:03,680 Speaker 4: of the things that we did from the perspective of 1401 01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,240 Speaker 4: a country that had just spilled blood overseas and the 1402 01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:10,960 Speaker 4: Pacific and had dropped a nuclear weapon for the first 1403 01:10:11,000 --> 01:10:15,640 Speaker 4: time ever twice in Japan, why people were utterly terrified, 1404 01:10:15,840 --> 01:10:18,840 Speaker 4: Why there were drills that you know, people were hiding 1405 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:21,479 Speaker 4: under their desks because they were so afraid of nuclear war, 1406 01:10:21,600 --> 01:10:23,559 Speaker 4: and how that led us to make some really ridiculous 1407 01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:27,280 Speaker 4: decisions overseas. But if we're not honest about those decisions, 1408 01:10:28,120 --> 01:10:30,280 Speaker 4: we are going to look like we are hiding that, 1409 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:32,760 Speaker 4: and we are to some extent hiding it. And it's 1410 01:10:32,760 --> 01:10:34,960 Speaker 4: an amazing country that you know, people like David Talbot 1411 01:10:35,000 --> 01:10:37,599 Speaker 4: can write the book that he did and can talk 1412 01:10:37,680 --> 01:10:39,559 Speaker 4: about it in the media, and that we can study 1413 01:10:39,600 --> 01:10:42,240 Speaker 4: these things and be honest about them. But until we 1414 01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:45,559 Speaker 4: sort of have a high profile confrontation with those mistakes 1415 01:10:45,600 --> 01:10:48,400 Speaker 4: and what they did oversea is like, this is why 1416 01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:52,960 Speaker 4: the fight over the sixteen nineteen project we can go 1417 01:10:53,120 --> 01:10:55,240 Speaker 4: back to the revolution or whatever, but like we aren't 1418 01:10:55,240 --> 01:10:59,400 Speaker 4: even being honest about the history the immediate history of conflicts. 1419 01:10:59,000 --> 01:11:01,479 Speaker 3: That we are in right now. Well, this is now. 1420 01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:05,600 Speaker 1: This is also why you know, we were opposed to 1421 01:11:06,160 --> 01:11:10,519 Speaker 1: like banning our tea during the at the you know, 1422 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:13,160 Speaker 1: at the beginning of the Ukraine War, when Russian invades 1423 01:11:13,240 --> 01:11:17,719 Speaker 1: Ukraine and all of these like Russian propaganda outlets were banned, 1424 01:11:18,280 --> 01:11:20,880 Speaker 1: not because we think that they're accurate and perfect all 1425 01:11:20,920 --> 01:11:24,320 Speaker 1: the time, but because it's important to know what your 1426 01:11:24,520 --> 01:11:27,320 Speaker 1: what propaganda is your enemy putting out, how are they 1427 01:11:27,640 --> 01:11:32,400 Speaker 1: justifying this conflict, and what are also some like potentially 1428 01:11:32,520 --> 01:11:37,120 Speaker 1: legitimate grievances that they had that enabled their justification of 1429 01:11:37,439 --> 01:11:40,639 Speaker 1: this war and this conflict. Those are really important things 1430 01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:44,680 Speaker 1: to understand. So and to your point, Emily, you know, 1431 01:11:45,240 --> 01:11:48,040 Speaker 1: the reason why, the big reason why we are so 1432 01:11:48,120 --> 01:11:51,439 Speaker 1: supportive of Israel since the sixties and so supportive of 1433 01:11:51,600 --> 01:11:54,120 Speaker 1: Saudi Arabian like these are our best buds in the region, 1434 01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,720 Speaker 1: is because we found them very useful for combating a 1435 01:11:57,840 --> 01:12:02,320 Speaker 1: Pan Arab movement, and we found frequently we found these 1436 01:12:02,360 --> 01:12:06,280 Speaker 1: sort of like Islamists, religious extremists groups like the Mujahadeen 1437 01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:10,839 Speaker 1: in Afghanistan. Bin Laden connection there, we found them useful 1438 01:12:10,960 --> 01:12:13,639 Speaker 1: for our aims at the time. And so also part 1439 01:12:13,680 --> 01:12:16,760 Speaker 1: of understanding this complex history is not to then go, oh, well, 1440 01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:19,200 Speaker 1: we backed bin Laden, therefore bin Laden must be good 1441 01:12:19,280 --> 01:12:21,680 Speaker 1: or right, or it's all our fault or whatever, but 1442 01:12:21,840 --> 01:12:25,120 Speaker 1: to understand the blowback and the potential consequences of some 1443 01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:27,799 Speaker 1: of the things that we have done in this region, 1444 01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:30,720 Speaker 1: and also that Israel has done in this region. NETANYAHUU 1445 01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:34,559 Speaker 1: is on record saying that he supported Hamas he wanted 1446 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:38,320 Speaker 1: to bolster Hamas thing because they were an obstacle to 1447 01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:40,320 Speaker 1: a two state solution, and he didn't want a two 1448 01:12:40,360 --> 01:12:43,639 Speaker 1: state solution. So to say all of these things isn't 1449 01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:46,479 Speaker 1: to say, ergo Hamas is good or ergo it's all 1450 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:49,640 Speaker 1: Israel's fault that they got their citizens massacred. 1451 01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:52,200 Speaker 5: It's to understand the history. 1452 01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,400 Speaker 1: So that we can try to keep people safe and 1453 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:58,200 Speaker 1: avoid conflicts and avoid terrorism and avoid war in the future. 1454 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:01,280 Speaker 1: And so I just find the whole, like the entire 1455 01:13:01,439 --> 01:13:06,960 Speaker 1: moral panic over this bin Laden letter situation, to be absurd, 1456 01:13:07,200 --> 01:13:09,719 Speaker 1: Like on every single level, I find it completely absurd. 1457 01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:10,479 Speaker 3: It's ridiculous. 1458 01:13:10,520 --> 01:13:12,400 Speaker 4: And the last thing we should mention is that there was, 1459 01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:16,960 Speaker 4: originally from people, including myself, speculation that the Beijing owned 1460 01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:20,280 Speaker 4: app TikTok was could be in some ways tweaking with 1461 01:13:20,360 --> 01:13:25,120 Speaker 4: the algorithm to make this amplify this in the United States. 1462 01:13:25,160 --> 01:13:27,679 Speaker 4: And actually TikTok saying that they're aggressively banning the content 1463 01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:30,280 Speaker 4: doesn't mean that that wasn't necessarily happening in Beijing. 1464 01:13:30,960 --> 01:13:32,479 Speaker 3: But I don't think it does. 1465 01:13:32,560 --> 01:13:34,479 Speaker 4: I don't think we actually even need TikTok, as the 1466 01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:36,880 Speaker 4: Google data that the Washiant and post polled shows. 1467 01:13:36,960 --> 01:13:37,880 Speaker 3: We don't need TikTok. 1468 01:13:37,920 --> 01:13:40,400 Speaker 4: We don't need Instagram like the Russian memes from twenty 1469 01:13:40,479 --> 01:13:42,880 Speaker 4: sixteen that they actually did put like thirty thousand dollars 1470 01:13:42,960 --> 01:13:45,719 Speaker 4: behind or whatever it was, to have some minimal effect. 1471 01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:48,800 Speaker 4: We're trying to prey on these divisions over transiteology and 1472 01:13:48,840 --> 01:13:51,360 Speaker 4: Black Lives Matter and all of this stuff in the US. 1473 01:13:51,760 --> 01:13:54,840 Speaker 4: Our foreign adversaries know that we're already completely divided along 1474 01:13:54,920 --> 01:13:57,439 Speaker 4: these lines, and they already know how powerful this stuff is. 1475 01:13:57,640 --> 01:13:59,639 Speaker 4: We actually don't need them to pour gasoline on the fire. 1476 01:14:00,200 --> 01:14:02,519 Speaker 4: Shouldn't allow them to pour gasoline on the fire. 1477 01:14:02,840 --> 01:14:04,439 Speaker 3: But even if they do the. 1478 01:14:04,439 --> 01:14:06,920 Speaker 4: Fires already burning, they might make the fire worse, but 1479 01:14:07,080 --> 01:14:09,000 Speaker 4: the fire is already burning because of plenty of the 1480 01:14:09,240 --> 01:14:11,800 Speaker 4: problems that we have on our own. And as of 1481 01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:13,439 Speaker 4: like ten years ago, people can go read this in 1482 01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,160 Speaker 4: the Washington Post. There were CIA textbooks they were made 1483 01:14:17,200 --> 01:14:21,639 Speaker 4: in like Missouri or Colorado, that were encouraging and writing 1484 01:14:21,680 --> 01:14:25,960 Speaker 4: about jihad in Afghanistan that were from Madrasas, and as 1485 01:14:26,040 --> 01:14:27,880 Speaker 4: of ten years ago they were still circulating. They're from 1486 01:14:27,920 --> 01:14:32,160 Speaker 4: like the nineteen eighties. That is still a completely There 1487 01:14:32,200 --> 01:14:36,120 Speaker 4: are still completely real fault lines that stem from this 1488 01:14:36,200 --> 01:14:40,920 Speaker 4: Cold War ideology that are driving the conflicts today right now. 1489 01:14:41,080 --> 01:14:42,719 Speaker 4: I mean, some of these things are still being driven 1490 01:14:42,760 --> 01:14:44,840 Speaker 4: by them. So we need to be honest about it. 1491 01:14:44,880 --> 01:14:49,040 Speaker 4: And if we aren't, people should expect the political establishment 1492 01:14:49,080 --> 01:14:51,560 Speaker 4: should expect a whole lot more sentiment exactly like this. 1493 01:14:51,840 --> 01:14:54,000 Speaker 1: And that is a great point because a lot of 1494 01:14:54,080 --> 01:14:58,680 Speaker 1: this does come down to cope that the younger generations 1495 01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,360 Speaker 1: have a very different view of this conflict. And I 1496 01:15:01,439 --> 01:15:04,160 Speaker 1: don't think you can look at the pole like none 1497 01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:07,200 Speaker 1: of these social media platforms are so powerful that what 1498 01:15:07,320 --> 01:15:10,679 Speaker 1: they serve you just like instantly brainwatches people into whatever 1499 01:15:10,840 --> 01:15:17,000 Speaker 1: view they're promoting. There is a genuine generational break in 1500 01:15:17,120 --> 01:15:21,000 Speaker 1: the way that people view this conflict between Israel Palestine, 1501 01:15:21,040 --> 01:15:22,920 Speaker 1: and I think that is attributed to a lot of things. 1502 01:15:22,960 --> 01:15:24,360 Speaker 5: Sagar and I had a conversation about this. 1503 01:15:24,479 --> 01:15:26,760 Speaker 1: I think part of it is that young people didn't 1504 01:15:26,800 --> 01:15:29,160 Speaker 1: grow up in this Cold War era where it was like, 1505 01:15:29,320 --> 01:15:31,599 Speaker 1: these are our friends and that's that, and this sense 1506 01:15:31,640 --> 01:15:34,240 Speaker 1: of like, you know, being existential, that we just back 1507 01:15:34,320 --> 01:15:36,680 Speaker 1: our friends against the bad guys no matter what. 1508 01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:38,600 Speaker 5: And I think it also is. 1509 01:15:38,600 --> 01:15:40,680 Speaker 1: Attributable to the fact that there is less of a 1510 01:15:40,800 --> 01:15:44,080 Speaker 1: lock on what people are able to see and the 1511 01:15:44,200 --> 01:15:47,519 Speaker 1: media that they're able to consume. There's a lot of reasons, 1512 01:15:47,600 --> 01:15:51,479 Speaker 1: I'm sure multifaceted, that have led to that, but it's organic. 1513 01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:54,720 Speaker 1: It's very clear in every single poll that comes out. 1514 01:15:55,160 --> 01:15:57,519 Speaker 1: And I don't know that the TikTok algorithm has a 1515 01:15:57,520 --> 01:15:59,120 Speaker 1: whole lot to do with it, right, No. 1516 01:15:59,160 --> 01:15:59,920 Speaker 3: I agree completely. 1517 01:16:00,320 --> 01:16:03,960 Speaker 4: Let's move on to what is roiling x dot com 1518 01:16:04,120 --> 01:16:06,639 Speaker 4: formerly known as Twitter over the last couple of days, 1519 01:16:06,680 --> 01:16:09,599 Speaker 4: which is Elon Musk firing off a couple of tweets, 1520 01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:13,439 Speaker 4: which it's no stranger to the advertisers on AX, so 1521 01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:16,000 Speaker 4: the board of over at AX or the people in 1522 01:16:16,040 --> 01:16:18,439 Speaker 4: the sort of c suite at ACX at this point 1523 01:16:18,760 --> 01:16:21,439 Speaker 4: that Elon Musk sort of doing what Elon Musk does 1524 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:25,720 Speaker 4: and firing off some tweets can cause these massive explosions 1525 01:16:26,880 --> 01:16:28,960 Speaker 4: of controversy as it regards to their business. 1526 01:16:29,000 --> 01:16:30,800 Speaker 3: So let's put this first tear sheet up on the screen. 1527 01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:31,599 Speaker 3: This is from The Guardian. 1528 01:16:31,640 --> 01:16:35,280 Speaker 4: The headline is Elon Musk agrees with tweet accusing Jewish 1529 01:16:35,320 --> 01:16:42,439 Speaker 4: people of quote hatred against whites. This then spurred by 1530 01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:46,360 Speaker 4: the way he was referring to this weird tweet that 1531 01:16:46,479 --> 01:16:48,639 Speaker 4: said I'm going to read it actually because if you're listening, 1532 01:16:48,720 --> 01:16:50,080 Speaker 4: you can see it on the screen if you're watching, 1533 01:16:50,160 --> 01:16:52,000 Speaker 4: But if you're listening, I think it's actually helpful to 1534 01:16:52,439 --> 01:16:55,360 Speaker 4: see the whole thing that he was responding to. Okay, 1535 01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:58,320 Speaker 4: Jewish communities have been pushing the exact kind of dialectical 1536 01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:00,760 Speaker 4: hatred against whites that they can that they claim to 1537 01:17:00,800 --> 01:17:04,240 Speaker 4: want people to stop using against them. I'm deeply disinterested 1538 01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,080 Speaker 4: in giving the tiniest shit now about Western Jewish populations. 1539 01:17:08,479 --> 01:17:12,120 Speaker 4: Coming to the disturbing realization that those hordes of minorities 1540 01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:16,639 Speaker 4: that support flooding their country. Don't exactly like them too much. 1541 01:17:17,120 --> 01:17:18,800 Speaker 4: You want truth said to your. 1542 01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:22,720 Speaker 3: Face there it is, so Elon Musk replies, you have 1543 01:17:22,960 --> 01:17:28,360 Speaker 3: said the actual truth. After this, as you can. 1544 01:17:28,560 --> 01:17:35,200 Speaker 4: Imagine, it spurs a huge advertising pullout. So this is 1545 01:17:35,240 --> 01:17:38,200 Speaker 4: from Axios. They have a list of companies that have 1546 01:17:38,320 --> 01:17:47,320 Speaker 4: suspended their ads on X, and they posted this to X. Actually, Apple, IBM, Disney, Comcast, Slash, NBC, Universal, 1547 01:17:47,520 --> 01:17:54,080 Speaker 4: lions Gate Entertainment, Warner Bros. Discovery, Paramount. This is really 1548 01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:57,200 Speaker 4: something crystal that already just in the last few hours. 1549 01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,120 Speaker 4: I'm actually kind of surprised a lot of those companies 1550 01:17:59,160 --> 01:18:03,120 Speaker 4: were still advertizing on X, which I actually, first of all, 1551 01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:06,559 Speaker 4: don't imagine is that helpful to some of their business. 1552 01:18:06,600 --> 01:18:08,880 Speaker 3: I think it is to generating buzz. 1553 01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:11,160 Speaker 4: You know, you can understand why Paramount or Disney or 1554 01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:14,360 Speaker 4: for example, would be advertising there. But you know, I'm 1555 01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:18,040 Speaker 4: actually surprised, given what's been happening, when they were still 1556 01:18:18,120 --> 01:18:19,519 Speaker 4: on there in any significant way. 1557 01:18:20,680 --> 01:18:23,720 Speaker 3: But this gets really interesting, So let's put the next 1558 01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:24,320 Speaker 3: element up. 1559 01:18:24,400 --> 01:18:27,120 Speaker 4: This is from Matt Binder, who says Eli Musk is 1560 01:18:27,200 --> 01:18:30,599 Speaker 4: so mad about all the advertisers fleeing X. He announced 1561 01:18:30,640 --> 01:18:33,280 Speaker 4: he's going to sue Media Matters, and in his statement 1562 01:18:33,360 --> 01:18:36,120 Speaker 4: he appears to confirm the accuracy of their reports in 1563 01:18:36,160 --> 01:18:37,640 Speaker 4: an attempt to downplay it. 1564 01:18:38,120 --> 01:18:39,839 Speaker 3: Good luck with the lawsuit. 1565 01:18:39,960 --> 01:18:44,200 Speaker 4: So this is a Musk's tweet of a statement that 1566 01:18:44,720 --> 01:18:48,439 Speaker 4: he said, quote the split second court opens on Monday. 1567 01:18:48,760 --> 01:18:52,120 Speaker 4: Ex court will be filing a thermonuclear lawsuit against Media 1568 01:18:52,160 --> 01:18:55,240 Speaker 4: Matters and all those who colluded in this fraudulent attack 1569 01:18:55,320 --> 01:18:59,519 Speaker 4: on our company. Stephen Miller, the Attorney General also of Missouri, 1570 01:18:59,640 --> 01:19:03,120 Speaker 4: reply to Elon Musk and basically we're saying fraud is serious. 1571 01:19:03,120 --> 01:19:05,759 Speaker 4: The Age of Missouri said, we're looking into this. Stephen 1572 01:19:05,800 --> 01:19:09,759 Speaker 4: Miller said fraud is both a civil and criminal offense. 1573 01:19:10,160 --> 01:19:13,080 Speaker 4: So that they are saying Media Matters, who put together 1574 01:19:13,160 --> 01:19:18,639 Speaker 4: this report, They said, basically their report is what gets 1575 01:19:18,680 --> 01:19:19,639 Speaker 4: advertisers to flee. 1576 01:19:19,680 --> 01:19:21,240 Speaker 3: They've done this with Fox News before. 1577 01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,040 Speaker 4: They do this all the time and tell places like 1578 01:19:24,160 --> 01:19:27,479 Speaker 4: Disney and Apple that their posts are appearing next to 1579 01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:31,200 Speaker 4: anti Semitic posts, so that their advertising content content is 1580 01:19:31,240 --> 01:19:34,439 Speaker 4: appearing next to anti Semitic posts. And so Elon Musk 1581 01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:38,599 Speaker 4: puts out this statement that says, of the five point 1582 01:19:38,640 --> 01:19:41,040 Speaker 4: five billion ad impressions on x that day. This is 1583 01:19:41,080 --> 01:19:43,320 Speaker 4: of the Media Matters report the day they studied, less 1584 01:19:43,360 --> 01:19:46,200 Speaker 4: than fifty total AD impressions were served against all of 1585 01:19:46,240 --> 01:19:49,800 Speaker 4: the organic content featured in the Media Matters article. For 1586 01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:51,800 Speaker 4: one brand showcase in the article, one of its ad 1587 01:19:52,320 --> 01:19:54,560 Speaker 4: adjacent to a post two times, and that ad was 1588 01:19:54,560 --> 01:19:56,640 Speaker 4: seen in the setting by only two users, one of 1589 01:19:56,680 --> 01:20:00,120 Speaker 4: which was the author of the Medium Matters piece. And 1590 01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:04,400 Speaker 4: this is Media Matters puts together. I think these stupid reports, 1591 01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:08,479 Speaker 4: like sloppy reports, silly reports. But advertisers are so sensitive 1592 01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:10,880 Speaker 4: about these things right now, especially when you have Elon 1593 01:20:10,960 --> 01:20:13,920 Speaker 4: Musk tweeting things like this. They're so sensitive to the 1594 01:20:13,960 --> 01:20:17,240 Speaker 4: public backlash that they will respond to Media Matters like this. Also, 1595 01:20:17,280 --> 01:20:20,240 Speaker 4: they're sort of already sympathetic to the ideological bent of 1596 01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,800 Speaker 4: Media Matters. So it's fairly easy for Media Matters to 1597 01:20:22,880 --> 01:20:25,240 Speaker 4: sort of control advertisers with things like this. We saw 1598 01:20:25,320 --> 01:20:27,599 Speaker 4: them again do it with target Carson Show on Fox. 1599 01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:28,800 Speaker 3: News and other things. 1600 01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,880 Speaker 4: But Elon is accusing Media Matters of creating fraudulently like 1601 01:20:33,960 --> 01:20:39,320 Speaker 4: a puppet account and following accounts taking activities to tweak 1602 01:20:39,360 --> 01:20:41,080 Speaker 4: the out or to mess with the algorithm so that 1603 01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:44,360 Speaker 4: it would serve them up the worst content on X. 1604 01:20:45,520 --> 01:20:50,320 Speaker 4: Now there are people calling for Linda Yakarino, who's in 1605 01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:52,439 Speaker 4: charge of what trust and safety at. 1606 01:20:52,439 --> 01:20:53,840 Speaker 5: She's the CEO. 1607 01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:59,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, she's the one who She came from NBC and 1608 01:20:59,520 --> 01:21:02,400 Speaker 1: the whole ones because she was the head of advertising 1609 01:21:02,560 --> 01:21:05,559 Speaker 1: at NBC. And the idea was that she has all 1610 01:21:05,600 --> 01:21:08,960 Speaker 1: these like brand relationships and she'd be able to bring 1611 01:21:09,040 --> 01:21:11,240 Speaker 1: the brands back over to X and make them feel 1612 01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:13,080 Speaker 1: comfy having their ads placed there. 1613 01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:16,479 Speaker 4: Right, that's right, and so Musk had said on Friday, 1614 01:21:16,680 --> 01:21:19,720 Speaker 4: quote as I said earlier this week, decolonization from the 1615 01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:23,160 Speaker 4: river to the sea and similar euphemism to necessarily imply genocide. 1616 01:21:23,200 --> 01:21:25,600 Speaker 4: Clear calls for extreme violence are against our terms of 1617 01:21:25,680 --> 01:21:29,560 Speaker 4: service and result in suspension. Jonathan green Blat of the 1618 01:21:29,600 --> 01:21:32,600 Speaker 4: Anti Defamation League responded to Elon Musk and said, this 1619 01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:34,479 Speaker 4: is an important and welcome moved by Elon Musk. I 1620 01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:36,160 Speaker 4: appreciate this leadership in fighting hate. 1621 01:21:36,439 --> 01:21:39,800 Speaker 3: Jakarino had also put out a statement without mentioning Musk, 1622 01:21:40,600 --> 01:21:46,040 Speaker 3: there's no room for anti Semitism hate on X period. 1623 01:21:46,200 --> 01:21:48,599 Speaker 5: Else is from the CEO, so Chrystal. 1624 01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:51,679 Speaker 3: These are kind of two separate things on the one hand, 1625 01:21:51,720 --> 01:21:54,200 Speaker 3: you have the Media Matters report. On the other hand, 1626 01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:57,919 Speaker 3: you have Elon Musk and what he posted. 1627 01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:00,479 Speaker 4: Yeah, that sort of creates the fire, but in some 1628 01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:03,519 Speaker 4: ways is separate because there's all of these different layers 1629 01:22:03,520 --> 01:22:06,880 Speaker 4: when we're just talking about the media Matters but Musk 1630 01:22:07,000 --> 01:22:10,160 Speaker 4: himself him expressing that sentiment. What did you make of 1631 01:22:10,240 --> 01:22:14,000 Speaker 4: his reply to the random post that he has no 1632 01:22:14,120 --> 01:22:15,840 Speaker 4: reason to replay too well? 1633 01:22:15,960 --> 01:22:18,120 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess I'm just dense because when I 1634 01:22:18,200 --> 01:22:20,960 Speaker 1: first read it, I just didn't understand it. Like the 1635 01:22:21,240 --> 01:22:24,960 Speaker 1: Dielectric electrical hatred. It wasn't a conspiracy that I was 1636 01:22:25,040 --> 01:22:26,439 Speaker 1: personally really familiar with. 1637 01:22:27,040 --> 01:22:29,559 Speaker 5: So I just didn't understand it. I mean I did. 1638 01:22:29,960 --> 01:22:32,800 Speaker 1: I have, like the reference to minority hordes. I was like, 1639 01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:35,960 Speaker 1: that sounds bad. But then Matt Iglecie has to actually 1640 01:22:36,000 --> 01:22:38,640 Speaker 1: explained it. It's like why this helped me? Sorry, and 1641 01:22:38,840 --> 01:22:40,880 Speaker 1: it didn't help me. It was like, Oh, what they're 1642 01:22:40,920 --> 01:22:45,160 Speaker 1: saying is that Jews, because they vote for Democrats, deserved 1643 01:22:45,200 --> 01:22:48,840 Speaker 1: to die basically is the idea. And so yeah, to 1644 01:22:49,000 --> 01:22:51,960 Speaker 1: have Elon Musk co signing that, like, ain't that the truth? 1645 01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:54,160 Speaker 5: Brother? It's like this is wild. 1646 01:22:54,720 --> 01:22:57,639 Speaker 1: And then to see On the other hand, the ADL 1647 01:22:57,760 --> 01:23:01,320 Speaker 1: guy who's out there calling everybody antis coming out and 1648 01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:05,400 Speaker 1: being like, good job on banning certain words from your platform, 1649 01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:07,160 Speaker 1: and I stand, you know this is great, and I 1650 01:23:07,240 --> 01:23:10,760 Speaker 1: support you when you you legit, just like there is 1651 01:23:10,920 --> 01:23:13,080 Speaker 1: no two ways around the fact what Elon mus said 1652 01:23:13,120 --> 01:23:17,719 Speaker 1: is like wildly anti Semitic and and like anti Muslim 1653 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:21,920 Speaker 1: and problematic on all sorts of levels. So there's that 1654 01:23:22,120 --> 01:23:25,519 Speaker 1: piece of the story which I think speaks to something 1655 01:23:25,680 --> 01:23:28,560 Speaker 1: I've been tracking, which is that you know, many of 1656 01:23:28,640 --> 01:23:31,679 Speaker 1: the people on the right who were so against identity 1657 01:23:31,760 --> 01:23:34,400 Speaker 1: politics and now are sounding very much like the left 1658 01:23:34,479 --> 01:23:36,640 Speaker 1: used to and throwing the word anti Semitic around all 1659 01:23:36,720 --> 01:23:39,200 Speaker 1: the time, and you know, engaging their own form of 1660 01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:43,519 Speaker 1: identity politics and safetyism and whatever. It's not actually anti 1661 01:23:43,640 --> 01:23:46,760 Speaker 1: Semitism that they have a big problem with, it's criticism 1662 01:23:46,880 --> 01:23:50,680 Speaker 1: of Israel. Like that's the thing the Ben Shapiro and 1663 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:54,040 Speaker 1: Candace Owens dispute. As a primary example of this, Candace 1664 01:23:54,080 --> 01:23:56,240 Speaker 1: said some crazy stuff about how what Hitler did was 1665 01:23:56,320 --> 01:23:59,000 Speaker 1: fine except he wanted to take his ambitions worldwide or whatever. 1666 01:23:59,040 --> 01:24:00,240 Speaker 1: I don't want to miss quote, or you can go 1667 01:24:00,320 --> 01:24:02,040 Speaker 1: and read the quote. It was an issue at the time, 1668 01:24:02,080 --> 01:24:04,680 Speaker 1: and lots of people condemned her for it, that he 1669 01:24:04,720 --> 01:24:06,679 Speaker 1: apparently didn't have a problem with because he then hires 1670 01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:09,439 Speaker 1: her at the Daily Wire. But when she's critical of Israel, 1671 01:24:10,280 --> 01:24:13,639 Speaker 1: that's where he says, this is repugnant. I think that's 1672 01:24:13,640 --> 01:24:15,960 Speaker 1: the word of disgusting. Maybe is the word that he used, 1673 01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:18,240 Speaker 1: that this is absolutely disgraceful, disgraceful. 1674 01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:20,280 Speaker 5: There you go, Thank you for reminding me of the 1675 01:24:20,320 --> 01:24:21,559 Speaker 5: exact words that he used. There. 1676 01:24:22,040 --> 01:24:24,559 Speaker 1: That's where he draws the line. And it's very similar 1677 01:24:24,680 --> 01:24:27,720 Speaker 1: with the ADL. Jonathan green Blad has come out and 1678 01:24:27,880 --> 01:24:30,680 Speaker 1: said that, you know, it's very clear that anti Zionism 1679 01:24:30,920 --> 01:24:32,040 Speaker 1: is anti Semitism. 1680 01:24:32,280 --> 01:24:32,840 Speaker 5: That's insane. 1681 01:24:32,960 --> 01:24:35,920 Speaker 1: Zionism is a political ideology. You can critique that, and 1682 01:24:36,160 --> 01:24:38,639 Speaker 1: there are many Jews who are not Zionists, by the way, 1683 01:24:38,760 --> 01:24:41,240 Speaker 1: and there are many non Jews who are Zionists. 1684 01:24:41,439 --> 01:24:44,360 Speaker 5: So it's a political ideology. Of course you can critique it. 1685 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:47,519 Speaker 1: Of course you can critique the Israeli government without being 1686 01:24:47,560 --> 01:24:50,519 Speaker 1: an anti semit So there's that piece of it. Then 1687 01:24:50,600 --> 01:24:54,000 Speaker 1: the Media Matters piece is Media Matter is obviously an 1688 01:24:54,000 --> 01:25:00,560 Speaker 1: activist organization and one of their specialties is weaponizing capitalism 1689 01:25:01,080 --> 01:25:05,559 Speaker 1: against companies right and Twitter. The reason all of these 1690 01:25:05,600 --> 01:25:09,760 Speaker 1: social media platforms have very similar content moderation policies is 1691 01:25:09,840 --> 01:25:13,599 Speaker 1: not because of the individual billionaire owners or words or whatever. 1692 01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,120 Speaker 1: It's because it's what the advertisers demand. So if you 1693 01:25:17,240 --> 01:25:21,439 Speaker 1: can show Apple that their ad was displayed next to 1694 01:25:21,479 --> 01:25:24,240 Speaker 1: some hitler post, and then you have the you know, 1695 01:25:24,439 --> 01:25:27,439 Speaker 1: the the Twitter head of Twitter dude whatever his technical 1696 01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:30,160 Speaker 1: title is, now being like by the way I share 1697 01:25:30,240 --> 01:25:34,080 Speaker 1: your antisemitic conspiracy, you can understand why they'd be like, 1698 01:25:34,479 --> 01:25:35,439 Speaker 1: I think I'm going to take. 1699 01:25:35,360 --> 01:25:36,840 Speaker 5: My ad dollars somewhere else. 1700 01:25:36,880 --> 01:25:40,240 Speaker 1: And obviously Twitter already in the you know, in the tank, 1701 01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:43,719 Speaker 1: in the toilet or whatever in terms of their revenue 1702 01:25:44,080 --> 01:25:47,680 Speaker 1: under Elon Musk's leaderships. So there's a lot of layers here, 1703 01:25:47,760 --> 01:25:49,200 Speaker 1: and all of them are kind of interesting. 1704 01:25:49,360 --> 01:25:51,280 Speaker 4: The funny thing to me about Media Matters is that 1705 01:25:51,520 --> 01:25:54,320 Speaker 4: they don't, I don't think inside Media Matters they see 1706 01:25:54,360 --> 01:25:57,599 Speaker 4: these little studies they do as like scientific or anything 1707 01:25:57,640 --> 01:26:00,200 Speaker 4: that could like withstand peer review. I mean obviously not, 1708 01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:03,080 Speaker 4: but like the media treats them that way. And I 1709 01:26:03,160 --> 01:26:04,800 Speaker 4: think that's so funny that the. 1710 01:26:04,840 --> 01:26:07,760 Speaker 1: Media Matters is very pro censorship, you know, I mean 1711 01:26:07,880 --> 01:26:10,639 Speaker 1: they are, like, I guess, sort of consistently pro censorship. 1712 01:26:10,680 --> 01:26:11,800 Speaker 5: I guess I would give them that. 1713 01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:16,519 Speaker 1: But and then elon mister free speech, then he's like, oh, 1714 01:26:16,600 --> 01:26:19,960 Speaker 1: you can't say these certain words the river to the sea, which, 1715 01:26:20,040 --> 01:26:22,960 Speaker 1: by the way, you know, you when Israelis say it, 1716 01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:25,439 Speaker 1: and there was a who was it is reelly like 1717 01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:29,920 Speaker 1: minister leadership. Israeli Foreign minister recently said from the river 1718 01:26:30,040 --> 01:26:33,519 Speaker 1: to the sea there will be secure Yeah, there will, 1719 01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:35,840 Speaker 1: he said, from the Jordan to the sea, there will 1720 01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:38,920 Speaker 1: be security control at all times moving forward. 1721 01:26:39,439 --> 01:26:40,080 Speaker 5: That's fine. 1722 01:26:40,280 --> 01:26:43,040 Speaker 1: But when Palestinians, some of whom I'm sure do use 1723 01:26:43,080 --> 01:26:45,080 Speaker 1: it as like, you know, wipe them all out, and 1724 01:26:45,160 --> 01:26:47,760 Speaker 1: plenty of whom mean it as in we want one 1725 01:26:47,840 --> 01:26:52,519 Speaker 1: state with equal rights. That sound of bounds, decolonization out 1726 01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:55,880 Speaker 1: of bounds. But you know, listen, if you're a pro 1727 01:26:56,040 --> 01:26:58,880 Speaker 1: censorship dude, I guess all right, but you're supposed to 1728 01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:02,479 Speaker 1: be mister free speech, and you can't use these words 1729 01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:03,679 Speaker 1: and phrases on your site. 1730 01:27:04,000 --> 01:27:04,240 Speaker 3: Listen. 1731 01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,680 Speaker 4: I think the right needs to be more consistent on 1732 01:27:06,760 --> 01:27:08,560 Speaker 4: this period. I think free speech people needs to be 1733 01:27:08,640 --> 01:27:13,400 Speaker 4: more consistent on this period because this long per date's 1734 01:27:13,400 --> 01:27:17,719 Speaker 4: October seventh. And you know, there's a really serious problem 1735 01:27:17,880 --> 01:27:20,920 Speaker 4: with inflation, like definition inflation that we talk about on 1736 01:27:20,960 --> 01:27:22,400 Speaker 4: the right all of the time when it comes to 1737 01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:25,719 Speaker 4: words like racism and bigotry. Particularly one that's really obvious 1738 01:27:25,800 --> 01:27:28,240 Speaker 4: is white supremacy, sort of taking how a lot of 1739 01:27:28,280 --> 01:27:30,680 Speaker 4: people used to understand those terms and the definition that 1740 01:27:30,720 --> 01:27:32,880 Speaker 4: we used to sort of have consensus on, and then 1741 01:27:32,960 --> 01:27:37,360 Speaker 4: at least briefly, and then inflating it to include people 1742 01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,200 Speaker 4: who are acting in good faith, are decent and civil, 1743 01:27:40,240 --> 01:27:42,600 Speaker 4: but you just disagree with them and you weaponize the 1744 01:27:42,680 --> 01:27:45,240 Speaker 4: term by wrapping it into it. That happens with anti 1745 01:27:45,280 --> 01:27:47,519 Speaker 4: semitism on the right. That is the way that the 1746 01:27:47,600 --> 01:27:51,439 Speaker 4: definition is often inflated. And I think sometimes there is 1747 01:27:51,840 --> 01:27:55,080 Speaker 4: very much anti semitism that gets ignored in the press 1748 01:27:55,160 --> 01:27:56,800 Speaker 4: and that people don't talk about. But there are a 1749 01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:01,600 Speaker 4: whole lot of other things. Decolonization is not necessarily necessarily 1750 01:28:02,280 --> 01:28:03,120 Speaker 4: anti semitism. 1751 01:28:03,200 --> 01:28:06,880 Speaker 3: To talk, no, it's absurd. And if Elon Musk, by 1752 01:28:06,920 --> 01:28:08,519 Speaker 3: the way, wants to take the side. 1753 01:28:08,320 --> 01:28:13,400 Speaker 4: Of the Guardian in deep platforming things that are uncomfortable. 1754 01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:16,360 Speaker 4: When we were talking about the Islama bin Laden letter, 1755 01:28:16,479 --> 01:28:17,880 Speaker 4: last segment and the Guardian. 1756 01:28:17,640 --> 01:28:18,360 Speaker 3: Pulling it down. 1757 01:28:18,800 --> 01:28:21,719 Speaker 4: That is a bad move, even though it's Osama bin laden, 1758 01:28:21,920 --> 01:28:23,880 Speaker 4: because we need to be able to read these things. 1759 01:28:24,000 --> 01:28:26,360 Speaker 4: And even if you think from the River to the 1760 01:28:26,439 --> 01:28:29,000 Speaker 4: Sea is what Elon Musk is saying, it is even 1761 01:28:29,040 --> 01:28:30,920 Speaker 4: if you agree with him that you know, and I 1762 01:28:31,080 --> 01:28:32,800 Speaker 4: generally do think that a lot of times it is 1763 01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:35,320 Speaker 4: used with the sort of wink wink, you know, you 1764 01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:37,320 Speaker 4: kind of know what I mean. Not always, but I 1765 01:28:37,360 --> 01:28:39,760 Speaker 4: think sometimes it is used that way. Even if you 1766 01:28:39,840 --> 01:28:42,360 Speaker 4: think that's always how it's used, it should be allowed 1767 01:28:42,520 --> 01:28:45,680 Speaker 4: on your free speech absolutist platform because the minute you 1768 01:28:45,760 --> 01:28:49,120 Speaker 4: start banning things is when bad ideas metastasize in the shadows. 1769 01:28:49,320 --> 01:28:51,559 Speaker 4: The minute you start banning things is when people get 1770 01:28:51,600 --> 01:28:54,280 Speaker 4: really curious about them, and it's when you give them power. 1771 01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:57,080 Speaker 4: You give things power by banning them. And we should 1772 01:28:57,120 --> 01:28:59,640 Speaker 4: all be able to read exactly where everybody stands on this. 1773 01:29:00,240 --> 01:29:03,280 Speaker 4: And I understand advertisers not wanting their content on that. 1774 01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:05,639 Speaker 4: Then he needs to figure out another business model, which 1775 01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:08,360 Speaker 4: he's sort of trying to do. But this is not, 1776 01:29:08,520 --> 01:29:10,599 Speaker 4: I mean, this is not the sort of magic wand 1777 01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,880 Speaker 4: that fixes this free speech magic wand that makes Twitter 1778 01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:15,679 Speaker 4: suddenly better again. Yeah. 1779 01:29:16,000 --> 01:29:21,400 Speaker 1: Jim Zogbie shared a poll of when Palestinians say, you know, 1780 01:29:21,600 --> 01:29:23,760 Speaker 1: one state or from the river to the sea, they 1781 01:29:23,880 --> 01:29:27,240 Speaker 1: mean they tend to mean, and again I'm not saying 1782 01:29:27,240 --> 01:29:30,040 Speaker 1: in all cases, one state with equal rights for everyone. 1783 01:29:30,600 --> 01:29:33,799 Speaker 5: Now israelis Jewish. 1784 01:29:33,840 --> 01:29:36,960 Speaker 1: Israelis see that as an existential threat because they see 1785 01:29:37,040 --> 01:29:40,839 Speaker 1: the Jewish nature of their state as being an essential quality. 1786 01:29:41,479 --> 01:29:44,600 Speaker 1: And if everyone in the territory from the river to 1787 01:29:44,680 --> 01:29:47,519 Speaker 1: the sea had equal rights, you would no longer have 1788 01:29:47,960 --> 01:29:51,120 Speaker 1: that Jewish majority, and so that's why they see it 1789 01:29:51,200 --> 01:29:55,000 Speaker 1: as existential. But the number of genocidal posts that you 1790 01:29:55,200 --> 01:29:59,439 Speaker 1: see coming from Israeli ministers are like wipe them out, 1791 01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:02,839 Speaker 1: a race them all, who are actively arguing for displacing 1792 01:30:02,920 --> 01:30:04,920 Speaker 1: them all permanently out of Gaza. 1793 01:30:05,360 --> 01:30:06,519 Speaker 5: And that's all find and good. 1794 01:30:06,680 --> 01:30:08,560 Speaker 1: It makes it very difficult for me to stomach this 1795 01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:11,559 Speaker 1: sort of like, you know, freak out over a chant 1796 01:30:11,880 --> 01:30:13,759 Speaker 1: that has been used for a long time and attempt 1797 01:30:13,760 --> 01:30:16,280 Speaker 1: to demonize a chant that many people genuinely do mean 1798 01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:19,920 Speaker 1: as like a call for one state with equal rights, 1799 01:30:19,960 --> 01:30:22,320 Speaker 1: whether you support that solution or not. But I think 1800 01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:25,040 Speaker 1: your point is the most important one, Emily, which is 1801 01:30:25,160 --> 01:30:27,080 Speaker 1: that listen, if you support free. 1802 01:30:26,920 --> 01:30:28,519 Speaker 5: Speech, you don't get to pick and choose. 1803 01:30:28,800 --> 01:30:30,360 Speaker 1: You know, I don't get to pick and choose when 1804 01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:33,240 Speaker 1: a speech that I don't like, and there's plenty of it, like, yeah, 1805 01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:33,920 Speaker 1: most of what. 1806 01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:39,519 Speaker 5: He says, not most, but some, you know, you don't like. 1807 01:30:40,280 --> 01:30:43,240 Speaker 1: Making space for speech that you find abhorrent is kind 1808 01:30:43,280 --> 01:30:46,559 Speaker 1: of the point of free speech. Otherwise those principles don't 1809 01:30:46,560 --> 01:30:49,640 Speaker 1: matter at all. So anyway, lot going on there with 1810 01:30:50,120 --> 01:30:52,360 Speaker 1: with Elon Musk and the things that he's saying and 1811 01:30:52,439 --> 01:30:54,560 Speaker 1: the things that he's doing, and the way that advertisers 1812 01:30:54,600 --> 01:30:55,240 Speaker 1: are responding. 1813 01:30:55,439 --> 01:31:03,560 Speaker 4: Sure well, perhaps the most influential AI company on the 1814 01:31:03,640 --> 01:31:07,400 Speaker 4: face of the earth was thrown into chaos starting on 1815 01:31:07,880 --> 01:31:13,759 Speaker 4: Friday when founder Sam Altman was pushed out of the company. 1816 01:31:13,840 --> 01:31:17,080 Speaker 4: We're going to get into the whole timeline that transpired 1817 01:31:17,160 --> 01:31:19,360 Speaker 4: over the weekend, but let's just start with the news 1818 01:31:19,720 --> 01:31:23,160 Speaker 4: after being fired on Friday, Sam Altman, we can put 1819 01:31:23,200 --> 01:31:25,840 Speaker 4: this first element up on the screen here. He said, 1820 01:31:25,880 --> 01:31:28,560 Speaker 4: I loved my time at Open Ai. It was transformative 1821 01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,519 Speaker 4: for me personally and hopefully the world a little bit. 1822 01:31:30,800 --> 01:31:33,080 Speaker 4: Most of why I loved working with such talented people 1823 01:31:33,439 --> 01:31:36,040 Speaker 4: will have more to say about what's next later. 1824 01:31:36,280 --> 01:31:38,679 Speaker 3: Well, actually we know what's next. 1825 01:31:38,880 --> 01:31:42,280 Speaker 4: After a wild weekend where he's pushed out, he's flirting 1826 01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:45,840 Speaker 4: actually with coming back. There's news reports that he's coming back. 1827 01:31:46,120 --> 01:31:49,240 Speaker 4: He's posting pictures that suggest maybe he's coming back. It 1828 01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:52,760 Speaker 4: turns out he's actually landed at Microsoft. We can put 1829 01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,880 Speaker 4: the next element up on the screen. He has been 1830 01:31:56,040 --> 01:32:00,560 Speaker 4: hired by Microsoft already, so this is just between Friday 1831 01:32:00,800 --> 01:32:04,680 Speaker 4: and Monday. He was hired at Microsoft. And if we 1832 01:32:04,760 --> 01:32:07,799 Speaker 4: put the next staurshat up on this screen, it followed 1833 01:32:08,120 --> 01:32:10,360 Speaker 4: just the wile this weekend I was. I was telling 1834 01:32:10,439 --> 01:32:13,040 Speaker 4: Crystal before we started filming this. It was like an 1835 01:32:13,120 --> 01:32:16,120 Speaker 4: episode of Succession. And the New York Times has to 1836 01:32:16,200 --> 01:32:18,719 Speaker 4: dive into it that they bill as in the headline 1837 01:32:18,760 --> 01:32:21,400 Speaker 4: the fear intention that led to Sam Altman's ouster at 1838 01:32:21,479 --> 01:32:26,479 Speaker 4: open AI. It looked from reports, especially originally because of 1839 01:32:26,520 --> 01:32:28,560 Speaker 4: where the fault lines are now open AIA has a 1840 01:32:28,760 --> 01:32:33,200 Speaker 4: really interesting structure. This is from the New York Times 1841 01:32:33,240 --> 01:32:36,360 Speaker 4: on Saturday. They said the conflict between fast growth and 1842 01:32:36,439 --> 01:32:39,679 Speaker 4: AI safety came into focus on Friday afternoon when mister 1843 01:32:39,720 --> 01:32:41,400 Speaker 4: Altman was pushed out of his job by four of 1844 01:32:41,479 --> 01:32:44,479 Speaker 4: open AI's six board members. One of the chairman of 1845 01:32:44,520 --> 01:32:47,799 Speaker 4: the board actually wasn't on this meeting when they ousted 1846 01:32:47,960 --> 01:32:51,200 Speaker 4: Sam Altman. A couple big members of the team. Their 1847 01:32:51,280 --> 01:32:54,920 Speaker 4: chief technology officer quit after Altman was pushed out by 1848 01:32:55,000 --> 01:32:57,840 Speaker 4: the board, he was asked to join this board meeting 1849 01:32:58,320 --> 01:33:02,400 Speaker 4: over video at New San Francisco. They're reading from a 1850 01:33:02,479 --> 01:33:03,680 Speaker 4: script according to The New. 1851 01:33:03,720 --> 01:33:06,960 Speaker 5: York Times, remote breakup one the remote breakup. 1852 01:33:07,120 --> 01:33:09,679 Speaker 4: And you know again, this is one of the most 1853 01:33:09,760 --> 01:33:13,880 Speaker 4: interesting parts of it is that they have this nonprofit board. 1854 01:33:14,160 --> 01:33:18,280 Speaker 4: Obviously open ai started as a nonprofit. Altman was one 1855 01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:21,360 Speaker 4: of the people who actually pushed He was really the 1856 01:33:21,439 --> 01:33:25,040 Speaker 4: person who pushed to start funneling all of this corporate 1857 01:33:25,120 --> 01:33:26,920 Speaker 4: money into open Ai. 1858 01:33:27,200 --> 01:33:29,200 Speaker 3: So their governed by a nonprofit board. I'm reading from 1859 01:33:29,200 --> 01:33:29,960 Speaker 3: the Wall Street Journal. 1860 01:33:30,040 --> 01:33:32,240 Speaker 4: Now, only a minority of its members were allowed to 1861 01:33:32,280 --> 01:33:35,120 Speaker 4: have a financial stake in the company at any given time. 1862 01:33:35,280 --> 01:33:39,320 Speaker 4: According to the company's bylaws, Altman himself had no equity 1863 01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:42,439 Speaker 4: in the company, further diminishing his influence with the board. 1864 01:33:42,800 --> 01:33:45,439 Speaker 4: This setup, as the Journal continues, allowed the board to 1865 01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:48,840 Speaker 4: essentially oust Altman without the consent of some of open 1866 01:33:48,920 --> 01:33:51,879 Speaker 4: AI's largest investors, and even though he delivered rapid financial 1867 01:33:51,920 --> 01:33:55,240 Speaker 4: access for the company and sent its valuation soaring, because 1868 01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:58,560 Speaker 4: the members of the nonprofit board don't exactly have the 1869 01:33:58,680 --> 01:34:02,559 Speaker 4: same I guess financial motives or interest in the financial 1870 01:34:02,600 --> 01:34:05,880 Speaker 4: motives that somebody like Sam Altman would. After steering all 1871 01:34:06,120 --> 01:34:10,040 Speaker 4: of this Microsoft cash and other corporate cash into open Ai. 1872 01:34:10,280 --> 01:34:13,200 Speaker 4: And now obviously Altman is going to Microsoft to work 1873 01:34:13,240 --> 01:34:15,360 Speaker 4: on AI. That's part of this deal. He's the head 1874 01:34:15,400 --> 01:34:19,920 Speaker 4: of their AI operations now, which means presumably he's going 1875 01:34:20,040 --> 01:34:22,639 Speaker 4: to be I mean, I would imagine he's still going 1876 01:34:22,720 --> 01:34:25,680 Speaker 4: to have because of the stake that Microsoft has an 1877 01:34:25,760 --> 01:34:28,760 Speaker 4: open Ai. Altman still apparently has very good will with 1878 01:34:28,840 --> 01:34:31,120 Speaker 4: people on the for profit side of open Ai. That's 1879 01:34:31,120 --> 01:34:34,360 Speaker 4: why this was really shocking to the AI community. He's 1880 01:34:34,479 --> 01:34:35,920 Speaker 4: ousted by this split. 1881 01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:36,360 Speaker 3: Crystal. 1882 01:34:36,439 --> 01:34:38,160 Speaker 4: I'm really curious to see what you think about this, 1883 01:34:38,720 --> 01:34:42,000 Speaker 4: this fundamental split in the AI world between people who 1884 01:34:42,080 --> 01:34:45,320 Speaker 4: say we need to reel this in begging for regulation, 1885 01:34:45,640 --> 01:34:47,960 Speaker 4: people like Tristan Harris at the Center for Humane Tech, 1886 01:34:48,520 --> 01:34:52,000 Speaker 4: which worked with the Biden administration on the recent executive orders. 1887 01:34:52,280 --> 01:34:54,040 Speaker 4: So people who are just saying we need to reel 1888 01:34:54,120 --> 01:34:57,559 Speaker 4: this back in. This technology is been it's a pendor's box. 1889 01:34:57,600 --> 01:34:58,960 Speaker 4: It's opened, and we need to kind of pull it 1890 01:34:59,000 --> 01:35:01,679 Speaker 4: back in as quickly as we can. And the sort 1891 01:35:01,680 --> 01:35:05,480 Speaker 4: of market indreasing camp that is, you know, full techno optimist, 1892 01:35:05,720 --> 01:35:09,680 Speaker 4: and we need to be actually on the accelerator right 1893 01:35:09,800 --> 01:35:12,560 Speaker 4: now because there's so much good that can be that 1894 01:35:12,640 --> 01:35:15,559 Speaker 4: can come from this and the more sort of profit 1895 01:35:15,680 --> 01:35:19,600 Speaker 4: motive and capitalist drive is involved in the process, the 1896 01:35:19,720 --> 01:35:21,320 Speaker 4: better it's all going to be. 1897 01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:24,680 Speaker 3: Altman is more on the techno optimist side of this. 1898 01:35:25,880 --> 01:35:28,240 Speaker 4: He's actually been pushed out by some of these same 1899 01:35:28,640 --> 01:35:32,960 Speaker 4: foundational dynamics that he tried to navigate and actually accommodated 1900 01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:34,760 Speaker 4: when he was in charge of open ai. 1901 01:35:35,120 --> 01:35:38,280 Speaker 1: So the history of open ai is it originally is 1902 01:35:38,439 --> 01:35:41,720 Speaker 1: established Altman, actually Elon Musk was involved at that time 1903 01:35:41,920 --> 01:35:44,599 Speaker 1: and a number of other people establish open ai as 1904 01:35:44,880 --> 01:35:49,479 Speaker 1: an explicitly non profit organization to try to pursue tech, 1905 01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:54,800 Speaker 1: including obviously AI, under a nonprofit umbrella so that all 1906 01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:58,120 Speaker 1: the decision making wasn't driven by just the profit motive. 1907 01:35:58,760 --> 01:36:00,519 Speaker 5: So that was the original I which is. 1908 01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:02,280 Speaker 1: A good idea by the way, which is a really 1909 01:36:02,360 --> 01:36:06,160 Speaker 1: good idea, and something that I fully support, because I 1910 01:36:06,280 --> 01:36:08,840 Speaker 1: do think that there are reasons to be concerned about 1911 01:36:08,960 --> 01:36:13,519 Speaker 1: what AI could unintentionally unleash, especially if you have, you know, 1912 01:36:13,680 --> 01:36:16,800 Speaker 1: big business controlling the decision making and driving the direction 1913 01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:20,400 Speaker 1: of development. Not only are you not going to pursue 1914 01:36:20,560 --> 01:36:22,680 Speaker 1: some of the things that actually could be really good 1915 01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:26,040 Speaker 1: for humanity because those things don't turn a profit, but 1916 01:36:26,200 --> 01:36:30,160 Speaker 1: you also run the risk of unleashing things that are 1917 01:36:30,240 --> 01:36:33,160 Speaker 1: really not ready to be unleashed and have inherent risk. 1918 01:36:33,520 --> 01:36:34,360 Speaker 5: We got a little bit of. 1919 01:36:34,360 --> 01:36:37,320 Speaker 1: A glimpse of this when chat GPT was rolled out, 1920 01:36:37,760 --> 01:36:40,400 Speaker 1: And remember there was that brief period before they sort 1921 01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,439 Speaker 1: of like lobotomized chat GPT where people are having some 1922 01:36:43,640 --> 01:36:46,160 Speaker 1: really wild caudles, Some real wild stuff was going on 1923 01:36:46,479 --> 01:36:46,920 Speaker 1: over there. 1924 01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:50,639 Speaker 5: And part of why you know AI is different than. 1925 01:36:50,600 --> 01:36:53,760 Speaker 1: Other tech is I saw someone explain that they may 1926 01:36:53,800 --> 01:36:56,280 Speaker 1: have even been saying, altman that explained this, but I'm 1927 01:36:56,320 --> 01:36:59,080 Speaker 1: not sure. But you know, like a phone, I don't 1928 01:36:59,160 --> 01:37:01,280 Speaker 1: know how a phone work, but I know there are 1929 01:37:01,360 --> 01:37:03,760 Speaker 1: people who could tell me how it works, right, who 1930 01:37:03,800 --> 01:37:06,439 Speaker 1: could explain, like this piece and this fits with this, 1931 01:37:06,640 --> 01:37:08,800 Speaker 1: and this is how like there's a functionality that. 1932 01:37:08,880 --> 01:37:12,479 Speaker 5: Human beings understand with large language models. 1933 01:37:13,120 --> 01:37:15,840 Speaker 1: It's not like that you feed in all of this 1934 01:37:16,360 --> 01:37:21,120 Speaker 1: insane astronomical amounts of data and you create something that 1935 01:37:21,560 --> 01:37:24,679 Speaker 1: is different that you can't just there's no human being 1936 01:37:24,760 --> 01:37:26,519 Speaker 1: on the planet who could tell you, like, if you 1937 01:37:26,680 --> 01:37:30,120 Speaker 1: ask the chat GPT this question or the AI this question, 1938 01:37:30,800 --> 01:37:33,759 Speaker 1: because of how it's programmed, you're going to get this result. 1939 01:37:34,560 --> 01:37:38,080 Speaker 1: That's what makes it such a that's what makes it 1940 01:37:38,200 --> 01:37:41,160 Speaker 1: so different, that's what makes it so frankly scary. That's 1941 01:37:41,200 --> 01:37:43,560 Speaker 1: what makes it something that you should approach with some 1942 01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:45,760 Speaker 1: caution and care and not just leave up to the 1943 01:37:45,800 --> 01:37:49,400 Speaker 1: whims of markets and people who want to turn a 1944 01:37:49,560 --> 01:37:53,720 Speaker 1: huge profit on it. So yeah, I mean that's sort 1945 01:37:53,720 --> 01:37:57,960 Speaker 1: of the overall state of affairs. And my eyebrows were 1946 01:37:58,000 --> 01:38:01,639 Speaker 1: firmly raised when open ai shifted to making this big 1947 01:38:01,760 --> 01:38:04,679 Speaker 1: business deal with Microsoft. I had a lot of questions 1948 01:38:04,720 --> 01:38:07,080 Speaker 1: about the direction that would go in. Sam was very 1949 01:38:07,160 --> 01:38:09,760 Speaker 1: outfront being like, no, it's fine, I totally trust them. 1950 01:38:09,840 --> 01:38:10,840 Speaker 5: It's going to be all good. 1951 01:38:11,479 --> 01:38:15,960 Speaker 1: The other cultural divide, or like philosophical divide in Silicon Valley, too, 1952 01:38:16,280 --> 01:38:19,640 Speaker 1: is between the effective altruists that we've covered in the 1953 01:38:19,720 --> 01:38:24,400 Speaker 1: context of Sam Bankman Freed, who have this philosophy that is, like, 1954 01:38:24,960 --> 01:38:28,120 Speaker 1: you know, the best we need to calculate the best, 1955 01:38:28,200 --> 01:38:30,400 Speaker 1: greatest good that our dollars can be put towards. We 1956 01:38:30,439 --> 01:38:32,160 Speaker 1: should do everything we can to get wealthy and then 1957 01:38:32,280 --> 01:38:34,560 Speaker 1: use that money in these like directed ways towards the 1958 01:38:34,600 --> 01:38:36,680 Speaker 1: things that we find to be the greatest threat to 1959 01:38:36,880 --> 01:38:39,840 Speaker 1: humanity and civilization. And put your feelings aside about whatever 1960 01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:42,200 Speaker 1: cause like emotionally moves you, and we'll. 1961 01:38:42,120 --> 01:38:44,360 Speaker 5: Just do this complex calculus. I have all sorts of 1962 01:38:44,400 --> 01:38:45,960 Speaker 5: issues with that. I did a monologue on it. You 1963 01:38:46,000 --> 01:38:46,640 Speaker 5: can listen to it. 1964 01:38:47,000 --> 01:38:50,639 Speaker 1: But one of the things that they identified as one 1965 01:38:50,680 --> 01:38:53,479 Speaker 1: of the grave risks that a lot of money should 1966 01:38:53,479 --> 01:38:57,960 Speaker 1: be funneled into is the threat from AI, sort of 1967 01:38:58,120 --> 01:38:59,080 Speaker 1: AI gone wild. 1968 01:38:59,160 --> 01:39:01,600 Speaker 5: I guess you would say. Another one was pandemic preparedness. 1969 01:39:01,600 --> 01:39:04,080 Speaker 1: That's why Sam Beakman Freed's thing was always like cloaked in, 1970 01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:06,479 Speaker 1: Oh sure, it's not about me getting the regulation or 1971 01:39:06,520 --> 01:39:08,519 Speaker 1: the non regulation I want of crypto. It's really about 1972 01:39:08,560 --> 01:39:13,920 Speaker 1: pandemic preparedness. Anyway, AI development was the other big cause, 1973 01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:16,120 Speaker 1: or one of the other big causes that they're devoting to. 1974 01:39:16,800 --> 01:39:19,680 Speaker 1: There's a lot of silicon valley and tech types who 1975 01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:24,800 Speaker 1: are do believe in the effective altruist like system, and 1976 01:39:24,960 --> 01:39:27,840 Speaker 1: so that is part of the split here, and the 1977 01:39:27,960 --> 01:39:30,360 Speaker 1: tension as well between the direction Sam was going in 1978 01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:32,760 Speaker 1: in the direction that the board wanted to go in. 1979 01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:35,679 Speaker 4: And that's again interesting about this, Like there are experts, 1980 01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:37,680 Speaker 4: there are people reporters who cover this really closely who 1981 01:39:37,720 --> 01:39:40,479 Speaker 4: say it's not necessarily we don't know definitively that the 1982 01:39:40,520 --> 01:39:43,120 Speaker 4: reason he was originally pushed out was because people were like, 1983 01:39:43,200 --> 01:39:46,479 Speaker 4: whoa Sam Altman? Uh, you know, the nonprofit board was like, 1984 01:39:46,520 --> 01:39:48,400 Speaker 4: we just got to pump the brakes on all of this. 1985 01:39:48,840 --> 01:39:51,519 Speaker 4: So much as it could have been that, or it 1986 01:39:51,600 --> 01:39:55,800 Speaker 4: could have been that these tensions stem from that fundamental 1987 01:39:55,880 --> 01:39:58,639 Speaker 4: disconnect between Altman and the nonprofit board and in other 1988 01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:02,400 Speaker 4: sort of then logistical, downstream ways, he ended up sort 1989 01:40:02,439 --> 01:40:05,840 Speaker 4: of on their chopping board. So if it's tensions that 1990 01:40:06,040 --> 01:40:08,920 Speaker 4: come from that initial disagreement, or it was front and 1991 01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:11,760 Speaker 4: center the initial disagreement itself, I'm sure we'll learn more 1992 01:40:11,760 --> 01:40:13,479 Speaker 4: and more about in the days to come. But this 1993 01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:17,639 Speaker 4: conversation about AI find so incredibly frustrating because the techno 1994 01:40:17,720 --> 01:40:20,559 Speaker 4: optimist side of this will point to all of these 1995 01:40:20,600 --> 01:40:24,040 Speaker 4: silly pessimists. They lovey tweeting that pessimist Twitter page that 1996 01:40:24,160 --> 01:40:27,040 Speaker 4: we're worried about the Internet, that we're worried about cell phones, 1997 01:40:27,080 --> 01:40:29,240 Speaker 4: that were worried about whatever else it was, We're worried 1998 01:40:29,240 --> 01:40:33,400 Speaker 4: about cars. They liked their horses of all of that, 1999 01:40:33,960 --> 01:40:37,240 Speaker 4: first of all, as a way to dismiss pessimists. Now, 2000 01:40:37,880 --> 01:40:42,160 Speaker 4: those pessimists made the eventual product product safer and better, 2001 01:40:42,439 --> 01:40:46,599 Speaker 4: So denigrating the pessimists is not helping the product. Second 2002 01:40:46,680 --> 01:40:50,080 Speaker 4: of all, Yes, the call for regulations that sometimes is 2003 01:40:50,200 --> 01:40:52,920 Speaker 4: the baptist and bootlaggers, it is the protectionist, it is 2004 01:40:53,040 --> 01:40:57,280 Speaker 4: crony capitalism, and it is driven sometimes by apocalyptic fears. 2005 01:40:57,520 --> 01:41:01,040 Speaker 4: But actually those apocalyptic fears are held by people who 2006 01:41:01,080 --> 01:41:03,760 Speaker 4: are not just tech outsiders who don't understand the tech 2007 01:41:03,880 --> 01:41:06,320 Speaker 4: like we necessarily like we don't, we can't tell you 2008 01:41:06,360 --> 01:41:10,200 Speaker 4: how the phone works. They're actually, as you mentioned, people 2009 01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:13,080 Speaker 4: who do understand how this tech works, have developed the 2010 01:41:13,160 --> 01:41:16,320 Speaker 4: tech are also in the camp of the pessimists, not 2011 01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:19,040 Speaker 4: all of them, but many of them are. So to 2012 01:41:19,120 --> 01:41:21,200 Speaker 4: then act as the people who don't understand the tech 2013 01:41:21,320 --> 01:41:25,639 Speaker 4: are only afraid because they're ignorant, is again stupid. 2014 01:41:25,880 --> 01:41:28,080 Speaker 3: It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. 2015 01:41:28,840 --> 01:41:31,240 Speaker 4: And this conversation was just once again thrust to the 2016 01:41:31,280 --> 01:41:35,320 Speaker 4: forefront with the aster of Altman over the weekend. So 2017 01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:37,600 Speaker 4: now he's the head of Microsoft, which has tons and 2018 01:41:37,640 --> 01:41:39,639 Speaker 4: tons of money. Putting tons and tons of money into 2019 01:41:39,680 --> 01:41:43,439 Speaker 4: AI is massively powerful, Crystal. I don't think we got 2020 01:41:43,880 --> 01:41:46,280 Speaker 4: any step closer to say for AI over the weekend. 2021 01:41:46,479 --> 01:41:50,600 Speaker 1: No, I don't think so. And there's two separate genres 2022 01:41:50,720 --> 01:41:54,320 Speaker 1: of AI concern. One of them is like the apocalyptic scenario, 2023 01:41:54,479 --> 01:41:55,960 Speaker 1: like the AI is going to kill us all and 2024 01:41:56,280 --> 01:41:59,920 Speaker 1: you know, or like unleash something that is unpredictable, et cetera. 2025 01:42:00,040 --> 01:42:01,840 Speaker 1: There's that one, even if you don't buy into that one. 2026 01:42:01,880 --> 01:42:04,040 Speaker 1: The other one, though, is that you have massive job 2027 01:42:04,120 --> 01:42:08,680 Speaker 1: loss triggered by rapid AI development, which is something that 2028 01:42:08,920 --> 01:42:11,639 Speaker 1: you know, corporate titans like they're all for So that's 2029 01:42:11,680 --> 01:42:14,120 Speaker 1: part of why people are concerned by this being controlled 2030 01:42:14,479 --> 01:42:18,439 Speaker 1: by the for profit sector of society. And as you say, Emily, 2031 01:42:18,640 --> 01:42:21,280 Speaker 1: you know, not just people who are outside of it 2032 01:42:21,360 --> 01:42:25,320 Speaker 1: and don't understand, but actually people who are intimately knowledgeable 2033 01:42:25,400 --> 01:42:28,000 Speaker 1: and involved with the development of AI. But I would 2034 01:42:28,040 --> 01:42:30,439 Speaker 1: also just say that sometimes people who have a little 2035 01:42:30,439 --> 01:42:33,400 Speaker 1: bit of a remove, who aren't emotionally invested in the 2036 01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:36,280 Speaker 1: development of extra Y or Z, but have almost like 2037 01:42:36,360 --> 01:42:38,519 Speaker 1: a layman's perspective on what this could mean and what 2038 01:42:38,560 --> 01:42:42,200 Speaker 1: it can unleash. Those views are also really valuable because 2039 01:42:42,600 --> 01:42:44,599 Speaker 1: you know, at times people get so into the weeds 2040 01:42:44,680 --> 01:42:48,160 Speaker 1: and so like in love with the technology itself that 2041 01:42:48,320 --> 01:42:53,200 Speaker 1: they have an incentive to downplay the risks and downplay 2042 01:42:53,439 --> 01:42:56,439 Speaker 1: some of the consequences. So personally, I don't I wouldn't 2043 01:42:56,479 --> 01:42:59,559 Speaker 1: dismiss you know, people who are sounding alarms who don't 2044 01:42:59,640 --> 01:43:02,400 Speaker 1: have intimate familiarity with exactly what the tech is or 2045 01:43:02,439 --> 01:43:02,800 Speaker 1: what it does. 2046 01:43:03,400 --> 01:43:06,960 Speaker 4: Let's move on to a pretty massive l from CNN 2047 01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:09,280 Speaker 4: over the last few days, which you know takes a 2048 01:43:09,320 --> 01:43:12,640 Speaker 4: lot of l's actually, but this one I think is 2049 01:43:12,960 --> 01:43:13,719 Speaker 4: worth discussing. 2050 01:43:13,800 --> 01:43:13,960 Speaker 11: Here. 2051 01:43:14,120 --> 01:43:17,599 Speaker 4: I'm going to play a clip. This is Anderson Cooper 2052 01:43:18,240 --> 01:43:22,679 Speaker 4: UH Friday. This is a guest on Anderson Cooper's show, 2053 01:43:22,680 --> 01:43:27,240 Speaker 4: a former is really Intelligence chief talking on CNN on 2054 01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:28,400 Speaker 4: Friday night. 2055 01:43:28,800 --> 01:43:30,479 Speaker 3: Let's just watch the clip and then Crystal and I 2056 01:43:30,560 --> 01:43:31,519 Speaker 3: will discuss and. 2057 01:43:31,600 --> 01:43:34,240 Speaker 16: In the south of several areas, we have been asking 2058 01:43:34,400 --> 01:43:37,639 Speaker 16: the godsen uh to move to the Mowassee area, which 2059 01:43:37,760 --> 01:43:40,960 Speaker 16: is the area closest to the seat Uh and this 2060 01:43:41,200 --> 01:43:44,880 Speaker 16: is where the big ten cities have been established. Fighting 2061 01:43:44,960 --> 01:43:47,400 Speaker 16: in the southern Honurnis does not mean that we're fighting 2062 01:43:47,439 --> 01:43:50,720 Speaker 16: in the same area. And as you've seen in the 2063 01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:53,400 Speaker 16: couple in the last couple of weeks, the fighting is 2064 01:43:53,920 --> 01:43:58,439 Speaker 16: very surgical, it is slow, it is very methodical. We 2065 01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:02,440 Speaker 16: are trying not to reach any of the non combatant 2066 01:44:03,479 --> 01:44:08,040 Speaker 16: population in the Gaza Strip, and I think that there 2067 01:44:08,160 --> 01:44:12,160 Speaker 16: is no way that we can eradicate the Hamas without 2068 01:44:12,320 --> 01:44:15,760 Speaker 16: dealing with most of its forces that have been that 2069 01:44:15,880 --> 01:44:16,960 Speaker 16: have fled to the south. 2070 01:44:17,640 --> 01:44:23,240 Speaker 10: Now again one little note. The noncombatant population in the 2071 01:44:23,320 --> 01:44:27,519 Speaker 10: Gaza Strip is really a non existent term because all 2072 01:44:27,600 --> 01:44:30,880 Speaker 10: of the Gazans have voted for the Hamas, and as 2073 01:44:31,000 --> 01:44:34,120 Speaker 10: we have seen on the seventh of October, most of 2074 01:44:34,200 --> 01:44:37,559 Speaker 10: the population in the Gaza Strip a Haamas. 2075 01:44:37,720 --> 01:44:41,960 Speaker 16: Nonetheless, we are treating them as non combatant, we are 2076 01:44:42,080 --> 01:44:46,320 Speaker 16: treating them as regular civilians, and they are spared from 2077 01:44:46,360 --> 01:44:46,839 Speaker 16: the fighting. 2078 01:44:47,120 --> 01:44:47,439 Speaker 3: All right. 2079 01:44:47,520 --> 01:44:50,280 Speaker 4: So again the quote there the non combatant population of 2080 01:44:50,320 --> 01:44:52,519 Speaker 4: the Gaza Strip is really a non existent term because 2081 01:44:52,560 --> 01:44:54,840 Speaker 4: all of the Gazzens voted for Hamas, and as we've 2082 01:44:54,840 --> 01:44:57,000 Speaker 4: seen on the seventh of October, most of the population 2083 01:44:57,200 --> 01:44:59,680 Speaker 4: in the Gaza strip are Hamas. That's the quote from 2084 01:44:59,680 --> 01:45:03,040 Speaker 4: the four is really intelligence Chief. Anderson Cooper just gets 2085 01:45:03,160 --> 01:45:06,080 Speaker 4: piled on when this video is posted to Twitter. For 2086 01:45:06,600 --> 01:45:09,560 Speaker 4: Kenna does a little squint when his guests said that, 2087 01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:12,800 Speaker 4: but basically let it go. You can you just heard 2088 01:45:12,840 --> 01:45:14,479 Speaker 4: in the clip or saw on the clip. He moved 2089 01:45:14,520 --> 01:45:18,639 Speaker 4: on to another topic completely after that statement was made, which, 2090 01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:21,120 Speaker 4: of course there is pretty relevant context and the question. 2091 01:45:21,439 --> 01:45:23,360 Speaker 4: But first of all, even if you're on the side 2092 01:45:23,360 --> 01:45:26,000 Speaker 4: of that Israeli Intelligence chief, you could talk about how 2093 01:45:26,120 --> 01:45:30,760 Speaker 4: there were supportive demonstrations on October seventh and Gaza the 2094 01:45:30,800 --> 01:45:33,640 Speaker 4: people were, you know, in some sense supportive of what 2095 01:45:33,800 --> 01:45:35,040 Speaker 4: happened on October seventh. 2096 01:45:35,160 --> 01:45:36,920 Speaker 3: But that's not the same as an election. 2097 01:45:37,400 --> 01:45:39,880 Speaker 4: And the last election that happened, as you pointed out 2098 01:45:39,880 --> 01:45:41,840 Speaker 4: earlier in today's show, was before like half of the 2099 01:45:41,880 --> 01:45:45,000 Speaker 4: population in Gaza was alive, let alone able to vote, 2100 01:45:45,040 --> 01:45:45,519 Speaker 4: able to vote. 2101 01:45:45,560 --> 01:45:47,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, Anderson Cooper just moves on from them. 2102 01:45:47,360 --> 01:45:50,480 Speaker 5: Maybe Anderson Cooper had just read Bin LUN's letter to America. 2103 01:45:50,280 --> 01:45:55,240 Speaker 1: And was persuaded persuaded by his logic that actually there 2104 01:45:55,280 --> 01:45:58,840 Speaker 1: are no civilian combatants. Since you have elections, it's fair 2105 01:45:58,960 --> 01:46:03,040 Speaker 1: game to massa her civilians or certainly the IDF dude 2106 01:46:03,080 --> 01:46:07,000 Speaker 1: maybe had just let agreed with the bin laden letters. 2107 01:46:07,200 --> 01:46:09,640 Speaker 1: You know what, Osama's got a point. What's up with 2108 01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:12,560 Speaker 1: this non combatant think? No, I mean, listen, there's so 2109 01:46:12,800 --> 01:46:16,800 Speaker 1: much policing of like rally chance of people who are 2110 01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:20,240 Speaker 1: basically powerless or like the Harvard letter, which we talked 2111 01:46:20,240 --> 01:46:22,439 Speaker 1: about here and which I had, is like, you can't 2112 01:46:22,479 --> 01:46:25,800 Speaker 1: say Israel is solely responsible for what Hamas did on 2113 01:46:25,880 --> 01:46:29,840 Speaker 1: October seventh. Hamas also guys has some responsibility, and. 2114 01:46:29,920 --> 01:46:31,920 Speaker 3: What's that responsibility? By the way they want to claim 2115 01:46:31,920 --> 01:46:32,600 Speaker 3: the responsibility. 2116 01:46:32,640 --> 01:46:35,439 Speaker 1: True, but for all of the you know, policing of 2117 01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:39,240 Speaker 1: that rhetoric, you've got someone with actual power here on 2118 01:46:39,400 --> 01:46:42,800 Speaker 1: a cable news network outwardly laying out a case for 2119 01:46:42,960 --> 01:46:44,720 Speaker 1: Jenaside while he's like, oh, well, of course we're doing 2120 01:46:44,800 --> 01:46:47,120 Speaker 1: what we can about civilians, but also there's not really civilians, 2121 01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:48,479 Speaker 1: so eh, who really cares? 2122 01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:51,360 Speaker 5: And zero pushback, zero pushback. 2123 01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:55,280 Speaker 1: You could not imagine the same thing happening on the 2124 01:46:55,320 --> 01:46:58,200 Speaker 1: other side if you had somebody on there who was 2125 01:46:58,360 --> 01:47:01,240 Speaker 1: like making the case that well, actually, all of these 2126 01:47:01,360 --> 01:47:04,599 Speaker 1: Israeli civilians, like they're not really civilians because they voted 2127 01:47:04,640 --> 01:47:07,680 Speaker 1: for Nanna Who, and they're complicit in the apartheid and 2128 01:47:07,800 --> 01:47:10,639 Speaker 1: like the blockade and the occupation, so they basically use access. 2129 01:47:11,200 --> 01:47:14,879 Speaker 1: There's no way that that would go unchallenged, and it shouldn't. 2130 01:47:15,160 --> 01:47:18,160 Speaker 1: It shouldn't by the way, But here this just becomes 2131 01:47:18,240 --> 01:47:22,160 Speaker 1: so normalized and commonplace, and it becomes rhetoric that we 2132 01:47:22,280 --> 01:47:25,240 Speaker 1: hear all the time that you know, the most Anderson 2133 01:47:25,280 --> 01:47:27,360 Speaker 1: Cooper can muster here is like a little squinting of 2134 01:47:27,439 --> 01:47:29,120 Speaker 1: his eyes before he moves on to the next stop. 2135 01:47:29,160 --> 01:47:32,360 Speaker 3: It's the Tucker Carlson squint a little bit. 2136 01:47:32,520 --> 01:47:34,679 Speaker 5: He's taking his cues from Bin Laden and Tucker Carlson. 2137 01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:38,960 Speaker 4: Okay, wow, So CNN has taken a few l's over 2138 01:47:39,000 --> 01:47:40,840 Speaker 4: the course of this context. Actually one of them from 2139 01:47:40,880 --> 01:47:44,280 Speaker 4: the other side is when they kind of immediately like 2140 01:47:44,360 --> 01:47:46,400 Speaker 4: the New York Times and some other outlets ran with 2141 01:47:46,520 --> 01:47:49,120 Speaker 4: the hamas framing of the initial hospital. This was like 2142 01:47:49,200 --> 01:47:51,640 Speaker 4: right after October seventh. People kind of remember when a 2143 01:47:51,720 --> 01:47:54,960 Speaker 4: hospital was hit. We still don't know exactly what happened 2144 01:47:55,000 --> 01:47:59,120 Speaker 4: with it, but as as Israel not claims as the 2145 01:47:59,160 --> 01:48:02,599 Speaker 4: US now claims Hamas missile hitt A hospital. CNN took 2146 01:48:02,880 --> 01:48:04,360 Speaker 4: a lot of heat for sort of like The New 2147 01:48:04,400 --> 01:48:07,160 Speaker 4: York Times. Basically, many major news outlets ran with the 2148 01:48:07,240 --> 01:48:09,479 Speaker 4: information that they had. That was one of the first 2149 01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:11,519 Speaker 4: blunders that I think see in an experience over the 2150 01:48:11,560 --> 01:48:14,479 Speaker 4: course of this conflict. But from the other side, let's 2151 01:48:14,520 --> 01:48:18,400 Speaker 4: look at this footage they ran. This is actually like 2152 01:48:18,479 --> 01:48:21,000 Speaker 4: a package, as it's called in the in the biz. 2153 01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:26,840 Speaker 4: A package they ran from this is Al Shifa man. 2154 01:48:27,120 --> 01:48:29,640 Speaker 4: The HuffPost did a dive. Here's the next element on 2155 01:48:30,720 --> 01:48:34,400 Speaker 4: what happened. CNN quietly cut, according to the Post headline, 2156 01:48:34,439 --> 01:48:38,639 Speaker 4: disputed Israeli military claim from some video reports. Huff Post 2157 01:48:38,720 --> 01:48:44,040 Speaker 4: rights in several other broadcasts of Robertson's report, which had included. 2158 01:48:44,520 --> 01:48:46,799 Speaker 3: We talked about this earlier in the show. A calendar 2159 01:48:47,040 --> 01:48:50,960 Speaker 3: that was supposed to be like a harmas. 2160 01:48:52,360 --> 01:48:57,839 Speaker 1: It was a shift, yes, where Hamas militants or terrorists 2161 01:48:58,160 --> 01:49:01,120 Speaker 1: were recording their names for their shifts of watching the 2162 01:49:01,200 --> 01:49:04,400 Speaker 1: hostages right, and in reality it was a calendar. 2163 01:49:04,640 --> 01:49:07,760 Speaker 4: Nobody knows how this aired because CNN, first of all, 2164 01:49:08,000 --> 01:49:11,680 Speaker 4: obviously Israel has people who speak Arabic. The IDEAF has 2165 01:49:11,720 --> 01:49:14,919 Speaker 4: people who speak Arabic, and you'd think before giving CNN 2166 01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:18,439 Speaker 4: and other people tours of this facility and making a 2167 01:49:18,520 --> 01:49:21,360 Speaker 4: claim that would easily be vetable, and you would of 2168 01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:24,200 Speaker 4: course make sure that you met that. Why would CNN 2169 01:49:24,360 --> 01:49:26,599 Speaker 4: then air You know, It's one thing for a sort 2170 01:49:26,640 --> 01:49:29,680 Speaker 4: of government engaged in a conflict to push propaganda. It's 2171 01:49:29,680 --> 01:49:31,840 Speaker 4: an entirely different thing for a media outlet to sort 2172 01:49:31,880 --> 01:49:34,360 Speaker 4: of run with it. CNN has not, by the way, 2173 01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:37,600 Speaker 4: they have changed this package, as you know they have. 2174 01:49:37,800 --> 01:49:42,240 Speaker 4: They're being shown through this kind of battleground area around 2175 01:49:42,320 --> 01:49:45,559 Speaker 4: Al Shifa by the IDEF. They run a package based 2176 01:49:45,600 --> 01:49:49,240 Speaker 4: on that, with the Arabic calendar, with that claim that 2177 01:49:49,400 --> 01:49:53,519 Speaker 4: it's a hostage like shift schedule for Hamas, and then 2178 01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:56,320 Speaker 4: it sort of disappears as huff Post catches. They're saying 2179 01:49:56,320 --> 01:49:59,080 Speaker 4: in several other broadcasts as well as on the CNN 2180 01:49:59,200 --> 01:50:03,160 Speaker 4: YouTube page on their website, none of the false information 2181 01:50:03,640 --> 01:50:07,519 Speaker 4: actually was there. Instead, they say, Robertson's report skips ahead 2182 01:50:07,520 --> 01:50:11,240 Speaker 4: to the journalists asking Hagari from the IDF about other hospitals, 2183 01:50:11,320 --> 01:50:14,599 Speaker 4: and the IDF spokesperson arguing, quote, we were right to fire. 2184 01:50:14,439 --> 01:50:15,600 Speaker 3: Upon al Rontisi. 2185 01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:19,559 Speaker 4: In an email to huff Post, a CNN spokesperson acknowledged 2186 01:50:19,600 --> 01:50:23,439 Speaker 4: the report, which first aired on Kaitlin Collins's program, was 2187 01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:27,120 Speaker 4: quote cut purely for length for subsequent shows. 2188 01:50:26,880 --> 01:50:28,959 Speaker 5: Not for personal embarrassment and humiliation. 2189 01:50:29,200 --> 01:50:31,960 Speaker 4: Sure, yes, the spokesperson argued that such cuts were quote 2190 01:50:32,080 --> 01:50:35,679 Speaker 4: not uncommon at all, especially given the nine minute length 2191 01:50:35,880 --> 01:50:38,960 Speaker 4: of the original segment, and huff Post continues, CNN has 2192 01:50:38,960 --> 01:50:42,080 Speaker 4: seemingly provided no acknowledgment or explanation to its online readership 2193 01:50:42,120 --> 01:50:44,400 Speaker 4: about these scenes apparently being cut from other versions of 2194 01:50:44,479 --> 01:50:47,000 Speaker 4: Robertson's report. The cnn dot com page for the report 2195 01:50:47,080 --> 01:50:50,519 Speaker 4: includes no editor's note or clarification, nor to CNN's YouTube page. 2196 01:50:50,960 --> 01:50:55,559 Speaker 4: That is not common practice, even when news outlets, especially 2197 01:50:55,680 --> 01:50:59,200 Speaker 4: for a pretty high profile and a pretty egregious mistake 2198 01:50:59,439 --> 01:51:02,320 Speaker 4: like this one, where again it's a mistake. I mean, 2199 01:51:02,439 --> 01:51:04,320 Speaker 4: even if you give, like let's say hypothetically we just 2200 01:51:04,640 --> 01:51:07,280 Speaker 4: give describe the benefit the doubt to CNN say they 2201 01:51:07,360 --> 01:51:10,839 Speaker 4: did everything. You know, sometimes the journalists just make mistakes. 2202 01:51:10,880 --> 01:51:14,559 Speaker 4: Sometimes that happens. Well, when it's a mistake, that's as 2203 01:51:15,200 --> 01:51:19,120 Speaker 4: I think pretty obvious. You've met calendars in a foreign 2204 01:51:19,160 --> 01:51:21,400 Speaker 4: language before allowing a foreign government to make a claim 2205 01:51:21,439 --> 01:51:21,880 Speaker 4: about them. 2206 01:51:22,160 --> 01:51:24,320 Speaker 3: It's just a journalism one on one. 2207 01:51:24,520 --> 01:51:27,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, so when you make a mistake, you just issue 2208 01:51:27,120 --> 01:51:31,600 Speaker 4: a correction again, like standard operating procedure, common practice in 2209 01:51:31,680 --> 01:51:33,479 Speaker 4: the news industry. 2210 01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:34,840 Speaker 3: That's not what happened here. 2211 01:51:35,040 --> 01:51:37,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, this is such a pretty good half post report, 2212 01:51:37,280 --> 01:51:41,120 Speaker 4: getting CNN even to admit that they weren't amending anything 2213 01:51:41,160 --> 01:51:43,760 Speaker 4: that they are claiming. It was just entirely for length, 2214 01:51:43,840 --> 01:51:44,880 Speaker 4: which is obviously untrue. 2215 01:51:45,000 --> 01:51:45,200 Speaker 5: Yeah. 2216 01:51:45,320 --> 01:51:48,120 Speaker 1: I mean Caylen Collins should have come out and you know, 2217 01:51:48,240 --> 01:51:50,400 Speaker 1: issue a statement on her program since this aired on 2218 01:51:50,520 --> 01:51:54,240 Speaker 1: her program. Absolutely, But I mean they're just this is humiliating, 2219 01:51:54,439 --> 01:51:57,800 Speaker 1: Like it's humiliating. And the context is that there are 2220 01:51:58,240 --> 01:52:00,960 Speaker 1: very few journalists left in Gaza. As we discussed before, 2221 01:52:01,160 --> 01:52:03,719 Speaker 1: somewhere around fifty of them have been murdered, killed. 2222 01:52:03,760 --> 01:52:04,240 Speaker 5: They're gone. 2223 01:52:04,880 --> 01:52:09,439 Speaker 1: There's no foreign journalists allowed in Western journalists unless the 2224 01:52:09,520 --> 01:52:12,120 Speaker 1: IDF decides to take you on one of these ride 2225 01:52:12,120 --> 01:52:14,720 Speaker 1: alums and then they vet the footage and you are 2226 01:52:14,800 --> 01:52:17,760 Speaker 1: only shown what they are willing to show you. You 2227 01:52:17,840 --> 01:52:21,040 Speaker 1: aren't allowed to freelance. You know, there were journalists who 2228 01:52:21,040 --> 01:52:23,320 Speaker 1: are allowed. I've read the New York Times was allowed 2229 01:52:23,360 --> 01:52:26,160 Speaker 1: onto the Alshifa Hospital grounds. They were not allowed to 2230 01:52:26,200 --> 01:52:27,840 Speaker 1: go and talk to the doctors, they were not allowed 2231 01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:29,320 Speaker 1: to go and talk to the patients. They had to 2232 01:52:29,360 --> 01:52:32,599 Speaker 1: be just with the Israeli military. And so you're very 2233 01:52:32,720 --> 01:52:36,400 Speaker 1: aware that you're being presented with the version of the 2234 01:52:36,479 --> 01:52:40,160 Speaker 1: facts that the Israeli military and the Israeli government wants 2235 01:52:40,320 --> 01:52:43,679 Speaker 1: you to show. So if anything, you should be even 2236 01:52:43,880 --> 01:52:48,080 Speaker 1: more vigilant and do even more fact checking about what 2237 01:52:48,280 --> 01:52:51,439 Speaker 1: it is that they are presenting to the world, because 2238 01:52:51,680 --> 01:52:53,880 Speaker 1: you are being used for their propaganda, like there's just 2239 01:52:53,960 --> 01:52:56,559 Speaker 1: no other way around it. Now, Listen, you may say 2240 01:52:56,640 --> 01:52:58,920 Speaker 1: it's worth accepting those conditions so that at least there 2241 01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:01,479 Speaker 1: is some picture of what is happening there, and also 2242 01:53:02,040 --> 01:53:04,720 Speaker 1: it's worth knowing what their version of the propaganda is, 2243 01:53:04,920 --> 01:53:07,360 Speaker 1: but it should always be framed in that context. So 2244 01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:11,360 Speaker 1: it's utterly humiliating for them that, given that state of affairs, 2245 01:53:11,680 --> 01:53:14,200 Speaker 1: they just run with these claims of the calendar, which 2246 01:53:14,280 --> 01:53:18,559 Speaker 1: is easily debunkable, which again, CNN has many Arabic speakers 2247 01:53:18,680 --> 01:53:20,880 Speaker 1: on their staff, and they couldn't bother to just check 2248 01:53:20,960 --> 01:53:22,759 Speaker 1: in with one of them to see if the claims 2249 01:53:22,760 --> 01:53:25,920 Speaker 1: added up and rather than doing the honorable thing admitting 2250 01:53:26,080 --> 01:53:29,200 Speaker 1: taken the l y admitting like, guys, we screwed up here, 2251 01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:31,640 Speaker 1: we should checked this, we didn't. Here's you know, it 2252 01:53:31,840 --> 01:53:35,639 Speaker 1: wasn't a Hamas militant recording of their hostages or whatever. 2253 01:53:35,920 --> 01:53:38,880 Speaker 1: It's actually just an Arabic language calendar. Sorry for that, 2254 01:53:39,400 --> 01:53:42,760 Speaker 1: which would still not totally undo the harm because more 2255 01:53:42,760 --> 01:53:45,080 Speaker 1: people always see the original report than correction. But that's 2256 01:53:45,120 --> 01:53:46,680 Speaker 1: what you do when you screw up, You take the 2257 01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:48,360 Speaker 1: l you admit it. Instead, they tried to do the 2258 01:53:48,400 --> 01:53:51,040 Speaker 1: stealth edit and got called out and caught for it 2259 01:53:51,080 --> 01:53:51,880 Speaker 1: by the Huffin Post. 2260 01:53:52,040 --> 01:53:53,360 Speaker 4: And you know what, Chrys, this goes back to what 2261 01:53:53,400 --> 01:53:55,240 Speaker 4: we were talking about earlier in the show, which is, 2262 01:53:55,320 --> 01:53:56,880 Speaker 4: and we may disagree on this, but I think it's 2263 01:53:57,120 --> 01:54:00,599 Speaker 4: entirely plausible that Hamas could have been operating the tunnels, 2264 01:54:00,600 --> 01:54:02,680 Speaker 4: which by the way, are likely the ones built by 2265 01:54:02,760 --> 01:54:06,160 Speaker 4: Israel in nineteen eighty three. Is the Tablet magazine reported 2266 01:54:06,160 --> 01:54:08,439 Speaker 4: back in twenty fourteen that under Al Shifa these tunnels 2267 01:54:08,439 --> 01:54:12,000 Speaker 4: whereas really, I think it's entighly plausible that Hamas. We 2268 01:54:12,080 --> 01:54:16,640 Speaker 4: know they operate underground. We know that they've operated beneath hospitals. 2269 01:54:16,760 --> 01:54:20,320 Speaker 4: We know that we can debate the specifics, but we 2270 01:54:20,560 --> 01:54:22,280 Speaker 4: at least that is true. 2271 01:54:23,120 --> 01:54:23,840 Speaker 3: And so it's. 2272 01:54:23,840 --> 01:54:27,679 Speaker 4: Possible that Hamas is operating some sort of central command 2273 01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:30,679 Speaker 4: center out of Al Shifa or out of the tunnels 2274 01:54:30,680 --> 01:54:34,880 Speaker 4: beneath Al Shifa. Possible even if you're sort of you 2275 01:54:35,000 --> 01:54:38,480 Speaker 4: agree with me on that point. Israel and of course CNN, 2276 01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:41,760 Speaker 4: but definitely Israel is not doing itself any favors. There's 2277 01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:44,560 Speaker 4: no way in which lying about these sorts of things, 2278 01:54:44,640 --> 01:54:46,320 Speaker 4: or failing to vet these sorts of things are putting 2279 01:54:46,360 --> 01:54:50,640 Speaker 4: forward such sloppy propaganda makes any strategic sense whatsoever, because 2280 01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:53,720 Speaker 4: all it does is make it much harder, let alone 2281 01:54:53,760 --> 01:54:55,960 Speaker 4: for the gossens that want to trust you when you're 2282 01:54:55,960 --> 01:54:58,680 Speaker 4: telling them to evacuate to the south and they're skeptical 2283 01:54:58,720 --> 01:55:00,600 Speaker 4: as to whether a there'll be a to return and 2284 01:55:00,680 --> 01:55:02,800 Speaker 4: be they'll be safe if they're in these crowded refugee 2285 01:55:02,800 --> 01:55:03,480 Speaker 4: camps in the south. 2286 01:55:03,800 --> 01:55:06,240 Speaker 3: But the sort of western. 2287 01:55:06,080 --> 01:55:09,560 Speaker 4: Population where where we're going to talk about some polls 2288 01:55:09,640 --> 01:55:11,960 Speaker 4: with the guest next that show a lot of opposition 2289 01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:16,560 Speaker 4: to Biden's pro Israel policy that is not helping Israel 2290 01:55:16,680 --> 01:55:17,000 Speaker 4: at all. 2291 01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:17,400 Speaker 10: This is. 2292 01:55:17,600 --> 01:55:20,880 Speaker 3: This is sloppy propaganda. This is you know, I'm not 2293 01:55:20,960 --> 01:55:23,560 Speaker 3: begging them for you know, good proper I'm just. 2294 01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:27,160 Speaker 5: Saying that by their level of contempt, the strategic. 2295 01:55:26,760 --> 01:55:30,400 Speaker 4: Argument they're going around saying transparency, transparency, transparency, the video 2296 01:55:30,520 --> 01:55:32,240 Speaker 4: is on our side. Out of Al Shifa, we are 2297 01:55:32,280 --> 01:55:34,840 Speaker 4: being transparent. We're putting up these videos, We're giving the 2298 01:55:34,960 --> 01:55:39,880 Speaker 4: media tours. These are from the pure cynical strategic standpoint. 2299 01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:43,200 Speaker 4: These are massively unforced errors because they're losing trust with 2300 01:55:43,360 --> 01:55:45,680 Speaker 4: every single one of these examples. And there's no need 2301 01:55:46,120 --> 01:55:49,160 Speaker 4: to claim that a calendar is a hostage watch shift. 2302 01:55:49,120 --> 01:55:49,480 Speaker 3: If it's not. 2303 01:55:49,960 --> 01:55:51,920 Speaker 5: Yeah, I think that is all very true. 2304 01:55:52,080 --> 01:55:54,640 Speaker 1: All right, let's go ahead and get to Democratic Senate 2305 01:55:54,680 --> 01:55:57,400 Speaker 1: candidate in the state of Michigan who has some real 2306 01:55:57,480 --> 01:55:59,520 Speaker 1: thoughts about Biden's Israel policy. 2307 01:55:59,600 --> 01:56:00,000 Speaker 5: Let's get you. 2308 01:56:03,000 --> 01:56:05,960 Speaker 1: Excited to be joined this morning by a Democratic candidate 2309 01:56:06,040 --> 01:56:09,800 Speaker 1: for Senate in Michigan. Naser bay dun is a business owner. 2310 01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:12,120 Speaker 1: He also was the executive director of the Arab American 2311 01:56:12,160 --> 01:56:14,720 Speaker 1: Chamber of Commerce and chair of the Arab American Civil 2312 01:56:14,840 --> 01:56:16,360 Speaker 1: Rights League. And it's great to have you joined us 2313 01:56:16,400 --> 01:56:16,880 Speaker 1: this morning, sir. 2314 01:56:17,000 --> 01:56:19,240 Speaker 8: Welcome, Thank you great to be here. 2315 01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:21,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's our pleasure. So go ahead and put this 2316 01:56:21,680 --> 01:56:24,680 Speaker 1: up on the screen. From Fox News, you had a 2317 01:56:24,840 --> 01:56:28,320 Speaker 1: spicy take here. You are urging Biden to drop out 2318 01:56:28,640 --> 01:56:31,640 Speaker 1: of the twenty twenty four race, and you are pointing 2319 01:56:31,720 --> 01:56:34,840 Speaker 1: in particular to what you describe as his handling of 2320 01:56:34,920 --> 01:56:38,760 Speaker 1: the Israel Gaza conflict, throwing his presidency into a tail spin. 2321 01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:42,640 Speaker 1: Just elaborate on why you're making this call and what 2322 01:56:42,720 --> 01:56:43,800 Speaker 1: you're seeing there in Michigan. 2323 01:56:45,120 --> 01:56:48,240 Speaker 11: Well, you know, being on the ground in Michigan, a 2324 01:56:48,320 --> 01:56:51,360 Speaker 11: lot of the people who had supported President Biden in 2325 01:56:51,480 --> 01:56:56,480 Speaker 11: the last election say they're unwilling to do so regardless 2326 01:56:56,560 --> 01:57:01,320 Speaker 11: who the Republican nominee is in the upcoming election. And 2327 01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:05,760 Speaker 11: I think that the Biden camp is banking on the 2328 01:57:05,840 --> 01:57:09,200 Speaker 11: fact that people are going to forget about the twelve 2329 01:57:09,280 --> 01:57:14,960 Speaker 11: thousand Palestinians killed in Gaza and Biden's inability to do 2330 01:57:15,160 --> 01:57:20,240 Speaker 11: anything or is not lying to call for a ceasefire 2331 01:57:20,320 --> 01:57:22,720 Speaker 11: and try and put an end to this conflict, and 2332 01:57:22,920 --> 01:57:25,160 Speaker 11: people are going to hold that against them. And I think, 2333 01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:29,280 Speaker 11: you know, not only in Michigan, but other very vital 2334 01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:34,520 Speaker 11: swing states, he's lost a lot large majority of people 2335 01:57:34,640 --> 01:57:36,760 Speaker 11: who supported him in the last election. 2336 01:57:37,880 --> 01:57:40,160 Speaker 4: Yeah, we can put these poll numbers up on the scene, 2337 01:57:40,560 --> 01:57:43,120 Speaker 4: up on the screen. This is from Ben Samuels, who 2338 01:57:43,400 --> 01:57:46,560 Speaker 4: looks at some of these quote latest troubling poll numbers 2339 01:57:46,600 --> 01:57:48,880 Speaker 4: for Biden on Israel, and these are from NBC News. 2340 01:57:48,920 --> 01:57:51,400 Speaker 4: Seventy percent of voters aged eighteen to thirty four, so 2341 01:57:51,520 --> 01:57:55,000 Speaker 4: a very young demographic disapprove of his policy. Fifty six 2342 01:57:55,040 --> 01:57:57,280 Speaker 4: percent of all voters disapproved of his policy. Fifty one 2343 01:57:57,320 --> 01:58:00,400 Speaker 4: percent of Democrats say Israel's gone too far for nine 2344 01:58:00,480 --> 01:58:05,080 Speaker 4: percent of Democrats oppose US aid to Israel. So that 2345 01:58:05,280 --> 01:58:08,080 Speaker 4: is really interesting, and I'm curious if it is something 2346 01:58:08,120 --> 01:58:10,280 Speaker 4: you're also seeing on the ground in Michigan, as you mentioned, 2347 01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:13,440 Speaker 4: a swing state that had been sort of a place 2348 01:58:13,560 --> 01:58:18,440 Speaker 4: where you had parents going against even the teachers' union 2349 01:58:18,600 --> 01:58:20,840 Speaker 4: in a way that caught national media attention when it 2350 01:58:20,920 --> 01:58:23,800 Speaker 4: came to books in schools, and people saying, maybe this 2351 01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:27,040 Speaker 4: is sending all of these voters to Republicans that roughly 2352 01:58:27,120 --> 01:58:31,200 Speaker 4: share Biden's Israel policy. I can imagine as you're traveling 2353 01:58:31,240 --> 01:58:33,720 Speaker 4: the state now and talking to people in your state, 2354 01:58:34,120 --> 01:58:36,120 Speaker 4: that's definitely not what you're seeing anymore. 2355 01:58:37,240 --> 01:58:40,040 Speaker 11: No, it's become a race of which is the better 2356 01:58:40,120 --> 01:58:42,840 Speaker 11: of two evils in terms of a lot of the 2357 01:58:42,880 --> 01:58:45,560 Speaker 11: people in our community. You've got to remember that Donald 2358 01:58:45,600 --> 01:58:49,280 Speaker 11: Trump won Michigan in twenty and sixteen by approximately ten 2359 01:58:49,320 --> 01:58:54,760 Speaker 11: thousand volts. Joe Biden won in twenty twenty by about 2360 01:58:54,760 --> 01:58:57,560 Speaker 11: one hundred and fifty thousand volts. So it's a very 2361 01:58:57,600 --> 01:58:59,880 Speaker 11: small margin of error, and every bolt's going to come 2362 01:59:00,200 --> 01:59:03,360 Speaker 11: in this upcoming election. So what's going to happen is 2363 01:59:03,440 --> 01:59:06,200 Speaker 11: that you're going to get people who choose not to vote, 2364 01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:09,720 Speaker 11: or they're going to vote but not choose anybody at 2365 01:59:09,760 --> 01:59:12,200 Speaker 11: the top of the ticket, or maybe go to Robert 2366 01:59:12,280 --> 01:59:16,720 Speaker 11: Kennedy or Cardell West as a protest vote. So I 2367 01:59:16,880 --> 01:59:21,160 Speaker 11: think that one, President Biden has lost his moral leadership 2368 01:59:23,560 --> 01:59:27,000 Speaker 11: in this upcoming election. Two, he's eighty one years old. 2369 01:59:28,160 --> 01:59:31,800 Speaker 11: We can see that he doesn't have the vitality to 2370 01:59:32,080 --> 01:59:36,120 Speaker 11: run this country for the next four years. And also 2371 01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:38,400 Speaker 11: when he ran in twenty twenty, he said he was 2372 01:59:38,480 --> 01:59:42,440 Speaker 11: going to be a transitional president. He's going to try 2373 01:59:42,520 --> 01:59:46,840 Speaker 11: and fix write what Trump did to this nation and 2374 01:59:47,080 --> 01:59:50,360 Speaker 11: lead it put it on a better footing. But now 2375 01:59:50,560 --> 01:59:53,080 Speaker 11: that he's in power, he's decided he wants to run 2376 01:59:53,640 --> 01:59:56,360 Speaker 11: when he's eighty two for four years. 2377 01:59:57,920 --> 01:59:59,800 Speaker 8: And also he has a vice president. 2378 02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:03,920 Speaker 11: But a lot of people don't you know, consider as 2379 02:00:04,000 --> 02:00:06,520 Speaker 11: a viable alternative to be the next president. We had 2380 02:00:06,560 --> 02:00:10,040 Speaker 11: a vice president that was you know, gave people confidence 2381 02:00:11,200 --> 02:00:13,200 Speaker 11: that it would be a different scenario. 2382 02:00:13,360 --> 02:00:16,480 Speaker 8: But we don't. And I think that if he chooses 2383 02:00:16,560 --> 02:00:18,280 Speaker 8: to run, he's going to lose. 2384 02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:20,720 Speaker 11: And not only is he going to lose, he's going 2385 02:00:20,800 --> 02:00:23,400 Speaker 11: to cost us the majority in the Senate and no 2386 02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:25,520 Speaker 11: chance of getting the majority in the House. 2387 02:00:26,480 --> 02:00:26,600 Speaker 5: Now. 2388 02:00:26,680 --> 02:00:29,560 Speaker 1: So you put your finger on something when you said 2389 02:00:29,600 --> 02:00:32,080 Speaker 1: it's the lesser to evils, and what the White House 2390 02:00:32,200 --> 02:00:33,960 Speaker 1: is saying is number one. 2391 02:00:34,000 --> 02:00:35,280 Speaker 5: People get over at number two. 2392 02:00:35,760 --> 02:00:37,920 Speaker 1: When you're faced with the alternative, all right, it's our 2393 02:00:38,000 --> 02:00:40,760 Speaker 1: guy Biden or it's Trump. People are going to remember 2394 02:00:40,920 --> 02:00:43,400 Speaker 1: the Muslim band. They're going to remember, you know, the 2395 02:00:43,520 --> 02:00:46,080 Speaker 1: chaos of the Trump administration, and they're going to suck 2396 02:00:46,160 --> 02:00:47,440 Speaker 1: it up and they're going to go back to the 2397 02:00:47,480 --> 02:00:49,120 Speaker 1: polls and they're going to vote for Joe Biden. 2398 02:00:49,800 --> 02:00:51,840 Speaker 5: Why do you think that it'll be different this time? 2399 02:00:52,800 --> 02:00:55,400 Speaker 11: Well, because you got to remember that when you talk 2400 02:00:55,480 --> 02:00:58,240 Speaker 11: to people, they say, oh, the stock market was better 2401 02:00:58,360 --> 02:00:58,880 Speaker 11: under Trump. 2402 02:00:59,360 --> 02:01:02,320 Speaker 8: Prices were better under Trump. And Trump might have. 2403 02:01:02,400 --> 02:01:05,760 Speaker 11: Issued a Muslim ban, but he didn't. He wasn't complacent 2404 02:01:05,880 --> 02:01:10,640 Speaker 11: in the depth of twelve thousand Muslims and Gozzim. So 2405 02:01:11,360 --> 02:01:13,840 Speaker 11: you know, if they're betting on the fact that Trump 2406 02:01:14,000 --> 02:01:19,120 Speaker 11: is the worst of two evils, I think, you know, 2407 02:01:19,800 --> 02:01:26,280 Speaker 11: they're miscalculating how people actually feel. This issue has galvanized 2408 02:01:26,320 --> 02:01:30,040 Speaker 11: people all across the country. And it's not just Muslims 2409 02:01:30,400 --> 02:01:31,600 Speaker 11: and Arab Americans. 2410 02:01:32,080 --> 02:01:32,640 Speaker 9: You know, you have. 2411 02:01:34,440 --> 02:01:38,480 Speaker 11: Jews, you have Christians, you have anybody that's anti war 2412 02:01:39,240 --> 02:01:43,560 Speaker 11: seeing this president take this country and on a course 2413 02:01:43,680 --> 02:01:45,680 Speaker 11: that a lot of people don't want to go. And 2414 02:01:45,760 --> 02:01:48,280 Speaker 11: you also have to remember when Trump was president, he 2415 02:01:48,360 --> 02:01:51,520 Speaker 11: didn't cause any wars, he didn't attack anybody. So people 2416 02:01:51,560 --> 02:01:54,320 Speaker 11: are going to look at and I think that President 2417 02:01:54,480 --> 02:01:59,040 Speaker 11: Biden and his team are grossly miscalculating how people feel 2418 02:01:59,560 --> 02:02:03,480 Speaker 11: and the anger because of what Israel is doing in 2419 02:02:03,560 --> 02:02:04,200 Speaker 11: Gaza right. 2420 02:02:04,160 --> 02:02:07,480 Speaker 4: Now and a lot of college towns in Michigan in 2421 02:02:07,600 --> 02:02:10,800 Speaker 4: your state, nasaur So how are you seeing this dynamic 2422 02:02:11,000 --> 02:02:15,720 Speaker 4: translate into the primary campaign for US Senate. Obviously A 2423 02:02:15,760 --> 02:02:19,680 Speaker 4: Lisa Slotkin is running for US Senate in Michigan establishment 2424 02:02:19,720 --> 02:02:23,640 Speaker 4: Democrat figure actually former CIA, which is interesting in the 2425 02:02:23,720 --> 02:02:27,000 Speaker 4: context of this particular issue. So when you see young voters, 2426 02:02:27,040 --> 02:02:29,840 Speaker 4: as you point out, not just Arab Americans, but sort 2427 02:02:29,880 --> 02:02:33,000 Speaker 4: of across the board, young voters opposing the Biden administration's 2428 02:02:33,040 --> 02:02:36,440 Speaker 4: policy here, have you seen some of those dynamics then 2429 02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:41,280 Speaker 4: translate into the Democratic primary for the Senate seat in Michigan. 2430 02:02:41,800 --> 02:02:43,840 Speaker 11: Definitely, we've seen a lot of momentum. You know, I'm 2431 02:02:43,880 --> 02:02:47,640 Speaker 11: a long shot candidate. You know, I'm not your typical 2432 02:02:47,840 --> 02:02:50,000 Speaker 11: candidate that's going to be running for US Senate. I've 2433 02:02:50,040 --> 02:02:54,000 Speaker 11: never held office before. I'm an immigrant, I'm an Arab, 2434 02:02:54,040 --> 02:02:58,160 Speaker 11: I'm Muslim Man, so you know, but I do see 2435 02:02:58,680 --> 02:03:05,000 Speaker 11: that our position, our opposition to apex dominance and occupation 2436 02:03:05,200 --> 02:03:09,440 Speaker 11: of Congress, is really gaining traction with people. And you 2437 02:03:09,480 --> 02:03:13,320 Speaker 11: know you mentioned Alissa Slopkins. Well, if APAX and the 2438 02:03:13,440 --> 02:03:16,760 Speaker 11: CIA had a baby, it would be Alyssa Slopkins. So 2439 02:03:17,360 --> 02:03:20,280 Speaker 11: you know, we're you know, this is a fight that 2440 02:03:20,360 --> 02:03:22,640 Speaker 11: we're going to take to the people of Michigan and 2441 02:03:22,800 --> 02:03:26,280 Speaker 11: let them choose who they want to represent them in 2442 02:03:26,360 --> 02:03:28,840 Speaker 11: the next US Senate race. 2443 02:03:29,960 --> 02:03:32,640 Speaker 1: Lastly, Naser just to go back to the Joe Biden point, 2444 02:03:32,680 --> 02:03:34,160 Speaker 1: would you go so far as to say you think 2445 02:03:34,200 --> 02:03:36,240 Speaker 1: he's doomed in the state of Michigan based on what 2446 02:03:36,280 --> 02:03:37,400 Speaker 1: you're hearing seeing on the ground. 2447 02:03:38,280 --> 02:03:40,440 Speaker 11: I will guarantee you that he's doomed in the state 2448 02:03:40,480 --> 02:03:43,200 Speaker 11: of Michigan and other states that are going to be 2449 02:03:43,240 --> 02:03:47,240 Speaker 11: too close to call, because he has alienated so many people. 2450 02:03:47,520 --> 02:03:50,400 Speaker 11: And you would think a person like Joe Biden, who 2451 02:03:50,560 --> 02:03:54,280 Speaker 11: lost his wife and a child and then another child, 2452 02:03:54,840 --> 02:03:59,200 Speaker 11: would empathize with the Palestinians and the five thousand children 2453 02:03:59,680 --> 02:04:03,000 Speaker 11: that have been killed in Gaza in the last forty 2454 02:04:03,040 --> 02:04:07,760 Speaker 11: four days. But we see no empathy whatsoever. And then 2455 02:04:07,800 --> 02:04:11,640 Speaker 11: you know, President Biden just published a pop ed in 2456 02:04:11,720 --> 02:04:15,920 Speaker 11: the Washington Post I believe it was yesterday, and which 2457 02:04:16,000 --> 02:04:19,040 Speaker 11: he says that after this, there needs to be a 2458 02:04:19,160 --> 02:04:22,720 Speaker 11: Palestinian peace process and there needs to be an outcome 2459 02:04:22,760 --> 02:04:24,360 Speaker 11: where the Palestinians have a state. 2460 02:04:24,920 --> 02:04:26,840 Speaker 8: Where were you before October seven? 2461 02:04:28,040 --> 02:04:31,480 Speaker 11: Why were you trying to circumvent the Palestinians with the 2462 02:04:31,560 --> 02:04:37,480 Speaker 11: abraham Accords instead of being, you know, trying to forge 2463 02:04:37,520 --> 02:04:40,760 Speaker 11: a peace deal that could have prevented had the Palestinians 2464 02:04:41,040 --> 02:04:45,040 Speaker 11: had hope for the last twenty years. 2465 02:04:45,560 --> 02:04:47,880 Speaker 8: Maybe we wouldn't have had an October seven. 2466 02:04:48,360 --> 02:04:52,840 Speaker 11: But the US, the Arabs, the Israelis have given the 2467 02:04:52,920 --> 02:04:58,600 Speaker 11: Palestinians no hope and today is just a culmination of 2468 02:04:59,200 --> 02:05:02,000 Speaker 11: you know, their spare and their lack of hope of 2469 02:05:02,200 --> 02:05:07,680 Speaker 11: ever establishing what's you know, their rights and their aspirations. 2470 02:05:08,880 --> 02:05:09,160 Speaker 5: NASA. 2471 02:05:09,240 --> 02:05:11,280 Speaker 1: Lastly, just tell people where they can learn more about 2472 02:05:11,320 --> 02:05:11,839 Speaker 1: your campaign. 2473 02:05:12,680 --> 02:05:14,920 Speaker 8: Well, they can go to my website at Naser n 2474 02:05:15,000 --> 02:05:17,560 Speaker 8: A S S E R four M I f O 2475 02:05:17,760 --> 02:05:18,920 Speaker 8: R m I dot com. 2476 02:05:19,800 --> 02:05:21,560 Speaker 1: All right, well, good luck to you and we appreciate 2477 02:05:21,600 --> 02:05:24,920 Speaker 1: your time this morning and your very clear eyed analysis. 2478 02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:27,400 Speaker 8: Thank you, sir, thank you, thank you very much. 2479 02:05:28,000 --> 02:05:30,200 Speaker 1: That's it for us today. We will be back tomorrow 2480 02:05:30,280 --> 02:05:32,280 Speaker 1: with all of the latest of whatever is happening in 2481 02:05:32,280 --> 02:05:32,560 Speaker 1: the world. 2482 02:05:32,560 --> 02:05:33,040 Speaker 5: Will see that. 2483 02:07:09,760 --> 02:09:30,560 Speaker 9: Kept up keep shop with me up shot with