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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, it's Paul muldoon. Before we get to this episode,

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Speaker 2: I wanted to let you know that you can binge

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Speaker 2: all twelve episodes of McCartney A Life and Lyrics right

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Speaker 2: now ad free by becoming a Pushkin Plus subscriber. Find

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Speaker 2: Pushkin Plus on the McCartney A Life and Lyrics Show,

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Speaker 2: pedge in Apple Podcasts, or at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, I wanted to become a person who

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Speaker 3: wrote songs, and I wanted to be someone who's life

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Speaker 3: was in music.

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Speaker 2: I'm Paul muldoun. I'm a poet, a lover of not

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Speaker 2: only the lyric poem, but the song lyric. Over the

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Speaker 2: past several years, I've got to spend time with one

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Speaker 2: of the greatest songwriters of our era.

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Speaker 4: And will you look at me, it's happened.

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Speaker 3: I'm going on too. I'm actually a performer. I'm actually

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Speaker 3: I'm a songwriter. My god, Well that that crypta homie.

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Speaker 2: That is sir Paul McCartney. We worked together on a

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Speaker 2: book looking at the lyrics of more than one hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty of his songs, and we recorded many hours

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Speaker 2: of our conversations. This is McCartney a life in lyrics,

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Speaker 2: a masterclass, a memoir, and an improvised journey with one

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Speaker 2: of the most iconic figures in popular music. Each episode

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Speaker 2: is centered around the writing of a particular song, the

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Speaker 2: people and the circumstances that inspired it. In this episode,

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Speaker 2: eleanor Rigby. Not many people know this, but an early

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Speaker 2: ambition of Paul McCartney's was to be a poet.

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Speaker 3: I feel okay about admitting to the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to look a bit bookish. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: smoke a pipe on the top deck of a boss.

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Speaker 2: McCartney was friendly with the poet Allen Ginsberg, who had

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Speaker 2: even revised some of McCartney's poems.

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Speaker 3: I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness,

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Speaker 3: starving hysterical megan. I knew Ginsburg quite well, and he

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Speaker 3: edited some of my poems.

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Speaker 1: And did he attempt to edit eleanor Rigby.

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Speaker 3: No, he said, that's a that's a great poem. I'm

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Speaker 3: very pleased. It was like in the best review.

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Speaker 2: The subject of eleanor Rigby kept coming up in my

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Speaker 2: conversations with Paul McCartney. It was like a reference point

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Speaker 2: for him, a beacon. He would steer By. There are

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Speaker 2: many ways into this song, many things to talk about,

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Speaker 2: but let's start with the central character, eleanor Rigby herself.

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Speaker 3: I wanted a character who some God all the little

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Speaker 3: old ladies that I'd known, and I'm looking back on it,

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Speaker 3: and I knew quite a few.

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Speaker 2: Paul McCartney's dad had brought Paul and his brother up

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Speaker 2: to be rather gallant. He taught them to stand up

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Speaker 2: for old ladies on buses and he.

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Speaker 3: Was the type who went off his hat good morning.

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Speaker 3: So I've been kind of encouraged to if I ever

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Speaker 3: saw an old lady struggling with shopping, I would be

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Speaker 3: the gallant young man. Can I carry that for you?

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Speaker 1: Oh God, be lovely.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for much chat chat chat, go to the

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Speaker 3: house drop it off. Would you like a cup of tea?

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Speaker 2: Paul was an active Boy Scout and one of his

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Speaker 2: favorite activities was barber Job Week, a common boy Scout

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Speaker 2: activity throughout England at the time.

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Speaker 5: In Maidenhead, Buckinghamshire, a group of enterprising cabs turn up

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Speaker 5: in the town hall for their Bobbi Job task.

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Speaker 2: Where kids would knock on doors and offer their services

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Speaker 2: for a shilling.

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Speaker 3: I'm so glad I had to do all of this,

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Speaker 3: like knocking on doors. Yes, excuse me, it's Bob job week.

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Speaker 3: Have you any jobs that you would like me to do?

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Speaker 3: And most of it would be puzzled as to what

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Speaker 3: when I'd liked what I said, Well, if you got

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Speaker 3: shared out of the back and maybe it's and he's tidying,

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Speaker 3: Oh yes, that's going to or if you've got the

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Speaker 3: garden needs taking, oh yes. Have to give them the ideas.

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Speaker 3: So I would, And in this way I kind of

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Speaker 3: got to meet a lot of older people and I

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Speaker 3: really loved it. I mean, once I got ten Bob,

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Speaker 3: and I think they kind of liked me.

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Speaker 2: These relationships with elderly women are the original inspiration for

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Speaker 2: Eleanor Rigby.

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Speaker 3: So I imagined this lady and gave her a scenario, and

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Speaker 3: she's picking up the rice in the church.

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Speaker 5: Helena Rigby picks up the rice in a church where

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Speaker 5: a wedding has been so.

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Speaker 3: She's cleaning up in the church, which immediately sort of

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Speaker 3: puts her in a social position and gives us an

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Speaker 3: idea that there might be a little bit of poignancy

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Speaker 3: with this rice. And it's not for her. It was

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Speaker 3: where a wedding had been And then she waits at

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Speaker 3: the window and facing the jar by the door.

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Speaker 5: Waits at the window, wearing the face that she keeps

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Speaker 5: in a job by the door. Who is it for?

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Speaker 3: My mom's favorite was Nivia, and I love it to

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Speaker 3: this day.

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Speaker 1: Beautiful packaging.

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Speaker 3: Ye kind of scared me a little that women used

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Speaker 3: quite so much cold cream.

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Speaker 1: They call them greasy stuff.

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Speaker 3: It was my dread when I got older and got married,

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Speaker 3: that I would marry someone who would say, oh I

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Speaker 3: love and would put one of these big shower capsule

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Speaker 3: on the curlers and have masses of things. And I

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Speaker 3: really so I played on my mind quite a bit.

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Speaker 3: So she's just wearing the face she keeps in the

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Speaker 3: job by the door.

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Speaker 2: The name Eleanor had come partly from the actress Eleanor Brawn,

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Speaker 2: a star at the time who had briefly dated John

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Speaker 2: Lennon and starred in The Beatles nineteen sixty five movie Help.

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Speaker 1: I Am not what I seem.

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Speaker 3: Sure, Hey, my skin so right through to the skin.

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Speaker 3: There's more here than meets the eye. See Eleanor, I

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Speaker 3: think was always a thing she Because we worked with

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Speaker 3: Eleanor Brown took me a long time to think of

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Speaker 3: Elana or Rigby.

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Speaker 2: Paul's girlfriend at the time, Jane Asher, was also an actress,

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Speaker 2: and one time when she was playing at the Bristol

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Speaker 2: Old Vic, Paul was wandering around outside.

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Speaker 3: I was wondering, I'm waiting for the play to finish

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Speaker 3: and saw this shot. Said Rigby. Well, that's there's my surname. Right.

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Speaker 3: It's nice, it's ordinary, but it's striking, it's strong, it's

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Speaker 3: got all the sort of stuff I've been looking for.

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Speaker 2: This is how Paul McCartney remembers it. Others have pointed

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Speaker 2: out that the Rigby name have come from somewhere different.

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Speaker 3: There is a grave up in Wilton Church with John

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Speaker 3: and I wandered around endlessly talking about our future, and

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Speaker 3: there is a grave there.

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Speaker 2: On the gravestone is the name eleanor Rigby, and not

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Speaker 2: far from it another grave with the name McKenzie on it.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember. I we haven't seen that grave, stores not,

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Speaker 3: but it's been suggested to me that, you know, psychologically,

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Speaker 3: I will have seen it. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think we do see things without seeing. Of course

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Speaker 1: we don't.

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Speaker 3: They plant themselves to plain and then I have to

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Speaker 3: go to Bristol and see it and go ah.

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Speaker 2: The other main character in the song started out as

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Speaker 2: Father McCartney, but it changed during a writing session with

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Speaker 2: John Lennon.

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Speaker 3: I had father McCartney because it was the right syllables,

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Speaker 3: and I remember playing in.

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Speaker 4: These said that's great.

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Speaker 3: Father McCartney loved it. I said, no, I'm really not

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Speaker 3: comfortable with it because it's my dad and my father McCartney.

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Speaker 3: Father McKay's me, you know, it's it's not I don't

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Speaker 3: want to I don't want to be that personal with this.

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Speaker 3: So we literally got the phone book out and went

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Speaker 3: on from McCartney, McCartney, McCartney, McKenzie, that's.

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Speaker 5: Good, father McKenzie.

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Speaker 3: And then we had him working, but his work was

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Speaker 3: darning his socks, because he was a sort of poor old.

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Speaker 5: Vicar darning his sucks in the night when there's nobody there.

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Speaker 5: What does he care?

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Speaker 3: All the lonely people where a lovely.

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Speaker 5: Duel.

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Speaker 2: Father McCartney didn't make it into the lyrics of Elma Rigby,

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Speaker 2: but he did play an important role in Paul's musical upbringing.

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Speaker 3: My dad had sat me down as a kid and

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Speaker 3: taught me and my brother the idea of harmony. Every

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Speaker 3: brother sang in harmony, so me and my brother did.

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Speaker 3: I once performed in a talent competition with my brother

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Speaker 3: Mike when I was eleven, and we sang Bye Bye Love.

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Speaker 3: Didn't win, obviously, not talented enough for the Bottling's crowd.

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Speaker 3: My dad was self taught, had learned, listened to things

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Speaker 3: and could play them. You know, I said, Dad, teach

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Speaker 3: me piana like you play. He said no, So he

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Speaker 3: said I can't play. Said you can't. I can't hear you.

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Speaker 3: He said no, I can't play properly. You've got to

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Speaker 3: go and learn.

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Speaker 2: So Partney went out to learn from a proper piano teacher,

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Speaker 2: but he didn't find that kind of music lesson to

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Speaker 2: be so stimulating.

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Speaker 3: He just killed me.

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Speaker 4: I couldn't do it when you go, and you'd go

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Speaker 4: to I've heard better stuff than this on the radio.

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Speaker 3: This is not great, but okay, I'm sure we have

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Speaker 3: to start here. And then she set homework. Go home

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Speaker 3: and learn what a crotchet and the quaver and thing

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Speaker 3: us and come back. So it was like, I've got

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Speaker 3: homework from school. I don't need your homework.

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Speaker 2: But Paul McCartney was twenty one and the Beatles already

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Speaker 2: gaining national popularity. He gave the piano lessons another go, and.

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Speaker 3: This was Royal Guildhall School of Music guy and he tried,

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Speaker 3: but by then I'd written Alan Rugby. But he had

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Speaker 3: to take me back to the five finger exercise do do?

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Speaker 3: I couldn't. I couldn't do the show. I just didn't

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Speaker 3: want to do it.

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Speaker 2: Many of Paul's peers felt the same way about traditional

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Speaker 2: musical training.

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Speaker 3: Everyone in my generation, all of us groups John George,

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Speaker 3: Paul and Ringo, Nick, Charlie Peace and so I don't

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Speaker 3: think any of us can read music. And now I

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Speaker 3: will teach a kid how to play the piano how

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Speaker 3: we learned it, and I will show them a couple

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Speaker 3: of chords to get started on, and if they're musical,

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Speaker 3: they're off. You get C D minor E minor F

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Speaker 3: G A minor right there. That's like most of the

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Speaker 3: Beatles songs. That's more than you need to know.

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Speaker 2: Which leads us back to eleanor Rigby, a song that

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Speaker 2: grew from a single chord.

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Speaker 3: In its basic sense, it's just an E minor chord,

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Speaker 3: and all the fun happens with my melody and the

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Speaker 3: syncopation and the words. Do do do. It's all against

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Speaker 3: the form fast.

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Speaker 1: Who is it for?

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Speaker 2: George Martin, the Beatles producer, had introduced Paul to the

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Speaker 2: idea of the string quartet on the song Yesterday.

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Speaker 3: And I had resisted the idea at first, but when

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Speaker 3: it worked, I fell in love with the idea. So

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Speaker 3: I knew now that I wanted to do a similar

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Speaker 3: thing with eleanor Rigby. So I would go around to

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Speaker 3: George's house with arrange a little session, and I said

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Speaker 3: to him, you know, I'm fascinated by Bach, because I

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Speaker 3: suddenly grasped that there was mathematics. I could see one

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Speaker 3: two one two, and then on top of that one

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Speaker 3: two three four one two three four one two now

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Speaker 3: forming a sort of pyramid, and then one three four, five,

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Speaker 3: six seven eight, one to three foot five six seven

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Speaker 3: and one to three foot pat sixteen star. So I

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Speaker 3: loved this two four eight sixteenth thing. And I brought

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Speaker 3: this idea and talked to George about this, and he said, well, Bach,

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Speaker 3: you know, would have done this, and he laid out

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Speaker 3: the chords as he had done on yesterday. George, talking

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Speaker 3: about this later, would say that he then became inspired

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Speaker 3: by Bernard Hermann, who had written the psycho music right,

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Speaker 3: which is very dramatic, and he wanted to bring some

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Speaker 3: of that into the arrangements.

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Speaker 2: Alfred hitched cox nineteen sixties classic about the Sinister Bates

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Speaker 2: Motel had been a huge box office success Dirty Night.

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Speaker 1: He had vacancy.

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Speaker 3: We have twelve vacancies, twelve cabins, twelve vacancies.

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Speaker 2: In the movie, Anthony Perkins character meles with his dead

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Speaker 2: mother and takes revenge on his desires.

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Speaker 1: Whether she's just a stranger, she's hungry.

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Speaker 2: And it's writing out together. They kill Janet Lee in

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Speaker 2: that famous char scene, and it's Bernard Hermann's stabbing violins

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Speaker 2: that make that scene so iconic. While eleanor Rigby isn't

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Speaker 2: a film, of course, McCartney says that writing the lyrics

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Speaker 2: was like structuring a movie.

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Speaker 3: Well, I was seeing is like a film just in

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Speaker 3: my god imagination. I've got two protagonists that are lonely.

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Speaker 3: She and then him. He's not sort of you don't

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Speaker 3: feel so sorry for him, but he's lonely. So you've

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Speaker 3: got these two. So all the lonely people now becomes

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Speaker 3: the chorus where do they belong? Where do they come from?

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Speaker 2: And in the third verse, the characters are brought together.

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Speaker 3: Died in the church, so we brought her back to

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Speaker 3: a rice cleaning duties. And so one day she keels

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Speaker 3: over in the church and was buried along with her name. So, yeah,

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Speaker 3: she dies, and then he comes back. He's the one

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Speaker 3: who buries and he's wiping his hands as he walks

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Speaker 3: from the great No one was saved, And that's your

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Speaker 3: sort of wrap up to the story.

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Speaker 1: And of course there's some kind of strain connection between

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Speaker 1: the elderly woman, and of course in Psycho it turns

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Speaker 1: out to be a woman who's kind of mummified in

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Speaker 1: some ways, the kind of crazy Linco strange.

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Speaker 3: Maybe George thought that link as well. That's possibly he's

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Speaker 3: thinking just purely musically. You know.

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Speaker 1: When you finished it, did you realize at that moment,

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Speaker 1: you know, this is one hell of us all.

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Speaker 3: I thought, this is a cracker. You do you do

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Speaker 3: when you've when you've got something that that Linda's dad

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Speaker 3: used to say, he's left ball twitched.

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Speaker 1: There's a physical response.

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Speaker 5: Rigby died in the church and was buried alone with

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Speaker 5: the name Nobody came Boto McKenzie widering no Dad from

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Speaker 5: his hands as he watched from the grave. No one

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Speaker 5: was saved all Alonely do they all call.

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Speaker 3: All alone? Do they belonge?

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Speaker 2: Eleanor Rigby from the Beatles nineteen sixty six album Revolver.

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Speaker 2: In the next episode, we traveled behind the Iron Curtain

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Speaker 2: to let ourselves in one one of the greatest jokes

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Speaker 2: of the Cold War era.

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Speaker 1: Back in the U. S.

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Speaker 3: S R.

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Speaker 4: Back in the U.

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Speaker 5: S s R.

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Speaker 2: McCartney A Life in Lyrics is a co production between

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Speaker 2: iHeartMedia n p L. And Pushkin Industries.