WEBVTT - Part Two: MKUltra: When The CIA Tried to Destroy Free Will 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:04.560 Robert Evans here to tell you about the live show 0:00:04.640 --> 0:00:07.080 for it could happen here that we're doing this October. 0:00:07.880 --> 0:00:10.799 It'll be me and the whole team Chris's and James 0:00:10.840 --> 0:00:15.040 and Garrison and Sophie and other fantastic people. Uh though, 0:00:15.120 --> 0:00:16.680 or it will be a Q and A so you 0:00:16.720 --> 0:00:19.440 can submit questions and you can purchase tickets now at 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:23.120 moment house dot com slash I h H. Remember it's 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.880 on October at six pm, but the link will be 0:00:25.920 --> 0:00:27.680 good to watch the show for up to a week 0:00:27.720 --> 0:00:30.160 after it airs, and you can purchase tickets now at 0:00:30.200 --> 0:00:32.800 moment house dot com slash i h H, where you 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:45.520 will also be able to submit questions. Ah, welcome back 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:50.040 to Behind the Bastards. Um. I am Robert Evans. We're 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:52.080 talking about m KLT. This is part two of our 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:57.080 series with Jason Pargeon. Jason, how who what are you? 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:06.400 What are you? Jason? How much time do we have? Uh? No, 0:01:05.680 --> 0:01:09.920 I am a full time author now who used to 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:13.240 be Evans boss speck of crack. Although if you're coming 0:01:13.280 --> 0:01:16.240 on our part two of this episode, you know that 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.360 you should circle back and what you listen to part one? 0:01:19.400 --> 0:01:22.600 If you're if you skipped it, Jason. We have a 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:26.479 whole a whole series of fans. We call him backwards 0:01:26.480 --> 0:01:28.880 these and they wait until the whole series is out, 0:01:28.880 --> 0:01:33.880 and then they listen to everything backwards like Momento. It 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:36.240 makes it less depressing because then it's the story of 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:42.000 a terrible person who ends up as a baby. Um. Yeah, Anyway, 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.000 I'm here promoting a book called If this book exists, 0:01:46.080 --> 0:01:48.320 You're in the wrong universe. It is not a book 0:01:48.360 --> 0:01:51.000 about mk ulture or anything we're talking about today. It 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.680 is a work of fiction that is a sequel to 0:01:53.880 --> 0:01:56.320 the film and movie John dies at the end, which 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.560 fans of mine know that. Well, people who have never 0:01:59.600 --> 0:02:03.360 heard of me, Uh, look at that. If you like it, 0:02:03.520 --> 0:02:05.000 I mean, can you can go buy this book and 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:07.600 it'll it's in the same universe, in the same characters. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:09.680 You say, it's not part of m k Ultra, But 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.760 if you were working for the CIA, that's what you'd say. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:16.400 So you know, people can make their own People can 0:02:16.440 --> 0:02:19.080 make their own decisions about whether or not they think 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:22.280 you're part of the CIA. But we should probably talk 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.200 about who the guy who is your boss if you 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:28.960 are working in the CIA's mk ultrip program, Sydney Gottlieb. 0:02:29.040 --> 0:02:31.680 Actually he's been dead for decades. But now at this 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:35.200 point it is not yet called MK Ultra, right, Nope, 0:02:35.240 --> 0:02:37.480 it is still it is a Project Artichoke is what 0:02:37.520 --> 0:02:39.919 it's moved on to now, right. So it starts out 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:43.320 as m K Naomi and then Project Bluebird and now 0:02:43.400 --> 0:02:46.560 Project Artichoke UM and these are all they just kind 0:02:46.560 --> 0:02:49.440 of keep getting more funding and getting a bigger sort 0:02:49.440 --> 0:02:52.040 of purview to go try and do weird mind control shit. 0:02:52.639 --> 0:02:55.400 And by the time Gottlieb takes over the Chemical division 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.240 because he's like running like the CIA's the chunk of 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:01.000 the CIA that's like fucking with chemical right, pretty obvious. 0:03:01.200 --> 0:03:03.560 So it's everything from like we need a drug for 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.480 if guys get captured that they can like bite down 0:03:06.600 --> 0:03:09.240 on a fucking fake tooth and kill themselves like in 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:13.440 dune Um, which is like they do stuff like that. 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.600 They actually do stuff like that um Like Sydney for 0:03:17.600 --> 0:03:19.240 for an idea of where his career goes. He's the 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.720 guy who makes the poison cigars they try to kill 0:03:21.760 --> 0:03:24.640 Castro with, like he's that guy for the CIA. But 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:28.480 also obviously it includes stuff like lsd um and Alan 0:03:28.560 --> 0:03:30.720 Dules by this point has been promoted to the number 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.920 two man at the CIA, so he has steadily risen up. 0:03:33.919 --> 0:03:36.960 And because he's a big believer in mind control, that 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.640 means that Gottlieb is just getting more and more money 0:03:39.840 --> 0:03:42.400 in the early fifties to start pumping into this project 0:03:42.480 --> 0:03:46.840 Artichoke shit Um. New research at the CIA is heavily 0:03:46.920 --> 0:03:50.240 driven by what this blue blooded paranoid egomaniac decided he 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.040 what he wanted researched. And in nineteen fifty two Alan 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.440 adds to his interest in psychedelics an interest in hypnosis, 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:02.080 so he's he's already like thinks that there's some sort 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:04.080 of mind control drug that the Soviets have that he's 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:06.760 putting money into. And in fifty two he also starts 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:08.600 to become like a fan of hypnosis. And this is 0:04:08.600 --> 0:04:11.360 because he actually like goes to a show in New 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.480 York City and he watches a famous stage hypnotist um 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:19.080 And the thing that convinces him that hypnotism has military 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.760 or has like applications for the CIA is that he 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.200 goes it winds up hanging out with this stage hypnotist 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:27.840 after the show, and the guy's like, oh yeah, I 0:04:28.200 --> 0:04:31.240 regularly rape women after putting them into a hypnotic trance. 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.880 It's really easy. You can make hypnotize women and just 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:35.520 have sex with them. And this is like a thing 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:38.000 that I do. And you know everything you need to 0:04:38.040 --> 0:04:40.040 know about Alan Dulis by the fact that this guy 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.800 says this and he immediately signs up to take a 0:04:42.800 --> 0:04:45.599 four day course from him. That is that is the 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:50.440 man Allen d sis Uh. People who have never listened 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:52.440 to the show before, I realized that it seems like 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.320 Robert and I are laughing at extremely inappropriate moments. The 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.880 please understand, this is a coping mechanism. We do not 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.720 actually think that it is funny. What else do you 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:04.640 do when you hear about that like that? When you 0:05:04.680 --> 0:05:07.000 hear about a like the the second in command at 0:05:07.000 --> 0:05:10.359 the CIA, that's his fucking thought process? Is this man's like, 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:14.320 I commit felonies all the time on using hypnosis and 0:05:14.360 --> 0:05:15.919 he's like, oh yeah, let me take I want to 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.520 take a fucking course from you. And your audience knows 0:05:19.600 --> 0:05:23.000 that hypnotism, like that form of hypnotism, like the pop 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.880 culture form where you can make somebody squawk like a chicken, 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.920 like plaining, like that's not a thing, right, Like they 0:05:27.920 --> 0:05:29.960 know that's not a thing. No, this man is just 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:34.640 assaulting people. Um and fucking sure enough, Alan Dulas takes 0:05:34.640 --> 0:05:37.040 a course from him. We'll talk about actual hypnosis in 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:40.000 a little bit, but Allendlis takes this course and he 0:05:40.040 --> 0:05:42.160 goes back to work at the CIA and d C, 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:46.400 and he tries to hypnotize his female co workers. Um. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.760 He uses CIA secretaries as his guinea pigs. He induces 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.080 trances in them. Stephen Kinser says that he got them 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.360 to quote do things they might not otherwise consider, like 0:05:56.480 --> 0:06:00.640 flirting with strangers or revealing office secrets. And my the 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:03.840 feeling I get is that they're kind of playing along 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.640 to an extent because this guy is their boss and 0:06:07.680 --> 0:06:10.560 they don't want to make him angry. Hopefully he doesn't 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:14.440 from kindser doesn't say he actually assaults any of these women. 0:06:14.680 --> 0:06:18.000 So hopefully this doesn't go any further than just you know, 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:22.920 grossly inappropriate sexual harassment. Um. But we really don't know, 0:06:22.960 --> 0:06:25.560 because it is the c i A. I mean without 0:06:25.640 --> 0:06:28.080 the aid of some sort of a medication or chemical 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:33.440 or something that probably cannot be done. Like stage hypnosis 0:06:34.200 --> 0:06:36.240 works because you get people up on a stage and 0:06:36.240 --> 0:06:38.320 they like to participate in the show, so you're like 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:43.400 lowering their inhibitions, basically giving them permission to be part 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.479 of the show. And so like some of it, it 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.160 works in like a subconscious level. But the type again 0:06:49.200 --> 0:06:51.640 that the type that exists has existed in pulp culture 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.400 pop culture for decades where you can like turn somebody 0:06:54.400 --> 0:06:59.920 into a zombie and make them do whatever purely through hypnosis. Again, 0:07:00.080 --> 0:07:04.040 hypnosis paired with whatever drugs they were working with at 0:07:04.080 --> 0:07:06.960 the time may do that put somebody where they're in 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:09.600 like a half awake state of you know, they're not 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:15.040 fully making decisions or whatever. The just hypnosis. Uh, that's no, 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.200 that's just a sleazy weirdo. It's a sleazy where And 0:07:18.240 --> 0:07:21.240 probably what is actually to the extent that that hypnotist 0:07:21.480 --> 0:07:24.679 is like hypno quote unquote hypnotizing and then having sex 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:27.360 with him and like well he gets them alone because 0:07:27.400 --> 0:07:30.800 he's famous, and then they like you know, pretend to 0:07:30.840 --> 0:07:33.720 be hypnotized because it's the safest thing to do, right 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.800 or or none of it ever happened, and he just 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.080 lies he's a liar. That's entirely possible too, that he's 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.080 such a sleezball that he lies about using hypnosis to 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.080 rape women because he thinks that makes him look cool, 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.920 and guess what, back at the time, it did. So 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:54.200 all of these things are possible. We will not know 0:07:54.240 --> 0:07:56.880 what exactly happens, but we know the result of this 0:07:57.000 --> 0:08:00.080 is that after being a real creep at work and 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.680 Dulus writes a memo to the Project art at Choke 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:06.240 team quote. If hypnotic control can be established over any 0:08:06.240 --> 0:08:10.360 participant in clandestine operations, the operator will have an extraordinary 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.560 degree of influence, a control in order of magnitude beyond 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:18.240 anything that we have considered feasible. Now, as you said, Jason, 0:08:18.360 --> 0:08:21.400 hypnosis is like a thing. There's a there's like studies 0:08:21.520 --> 0:08:24.480 that scientists do on people's brains, and hypnotic trance is 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:28.720 a thing that people experience. There are documented effects of 0:08:28.800 --> 0:08:33.160 being hypnotized, and hypnosis can be effective in conjunction with 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:36.520 certain therapies. But as you said, hypnotizing does not mean 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.480 that you're putting someone into a state where they will 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.240 take commands and do whatever you can kind of induce 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.000 or affect feelings of anxiety and pain and trauma. Actual 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:47.920 professionals who use hypnosis will use it to like you, 0:08:48.080 --> 0:08:50.880 can there's some evidence that can be used to reduce 0:08:50.960 --> 0:08:53.079 chronic pain in certain ways. It can be reduced, it 0:08:53.120 --> 0:08:56.400 can be used to reduce the pain of childbirth. Hypnosis 0:08:56.400 --> 0:08:58.960 has been shown to have some efficacy at treating addiction 0:08:59.000 --> 0:09:01.360 and PTSD. I'm not gonna get into it. I don't 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:04.200 understand hypnosis. Well, I don't think anyone really does. It 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.080 seems like the kind of thing that there's still a 0:09:06.080 --> 0:09:09.560 lot of like debate about, but like it is a thing. 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:14.240 It's on the same level something like meditation has absolutely 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:17.360 measurable effects. No one would question that. But that's somewhere 0:09:17.400 --> 0:09:20.000 out there, there's somebody claiming that, you know, you're meditating, 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.600 you're tapping into the energies of the universe or whatever, 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:25.600 you're leaving your body, and you're not. It's just we 0:09:25.640 --> 0:09:28.600 don't understand a lot about how the brain works. But 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:31.800 it's just that what he's talking about was like, well, 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:33.800 if you could do the thing where you wave a 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:37.160 watch in front of somebody and then now using a 0:09:37.240 --> 0:09:40.480 keyword later, you can make them your slave. The thing 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:43.600 as it exists in the Manchurion, Canada or whatever. You know, 0:09:43.640 --> 0:09:45.800 all these movies, these throwers that were made in the 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:49.160 wake of people believing hypnosis was real. That's the thing 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:51.560 that doesn't exist in terms of using this way to 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:54.600 like recover memories, that kind of thing, you know, putting 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:57.840 the brain into a relaxed, susceptible state. There's all sorts 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:03.280 of ways to do that. Um. But yeah, yeah, um, 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:08.480 so Alan Dullis, you know again, as hypnosis is a thing, 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.760 but Alan Dullis is mostly interested in using it to 0:10:10.840 --> 0:10:13.920 take over people's brains and get information out of them. 0:10:13.920 --> 0:10:16.640 And potentially the thing that he's most excited about, and 0:10:16.640 --> 0:10:18.320 the thing that everyone of the CIA is kind of 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.480 most excited about, is the potential to turn people into 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:24.560 sleeper agents who can be sent back home to carry 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:28.000 out attacks, right, Like that's the the Manchurian candidate thing. 0:10:28.160 --> 0:10:30.120 That's what the CIA actually wants to do, and they 0:10:30.120 --> 0:10:33.680 do believe that this is possible. Um. Gottlieb is certain 0:10:33.720 --> 0:10:37.600 of it. Um. And Gottlieb tells uh Dullus that like, yeah, 0:10:37.679 --> 0:10:41.319 you know, hypnosis can work, and particularly if we mix 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:45.080 hypnosis with these different hallucinogenic drugs people have started testing. 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:47.840 Have you heard of LSD? You know, That's kind of 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:50.560 how the conversation goes although they actually do. They start 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.880 with marijuana. Um. And this is because marijuana was something 0:10:53.920 --> 0:10:57.680 the OSS had tested pretty heavily on themselves back during 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:00.200 World War Two. Uh. They mixed it into very US 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.080 foods and they've smoked it to try to prove that 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.880 it had potential is a truth drug. Um. This did 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:06.599 not work, as anyone who's ever had the light of 0:11:06.679 --> 0:11:09.400 the cops while stoned as hell could tell you. Um. 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:12.040 Next the OS or next the CIA used so that 0:11:12.520 --> 0:11:16.160 under Gottlieb, they do try some marijuana experiments, it does 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:20.320 not prove effective. They move on to cocaine. Next, Gottlieb 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:23.880 used CIA cutouts to sponsor medical experiments in which mental 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.319 patients are injected with cocaine. So they are going into 0:11:27.360 --> 0:11:31.199 people who are institutionalized with like schizophrenia, and they are 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.680 injecting them with cocaine to see if it will make 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:39.480 people want to talk. Now, Jason, you've never done cocaine, right, No, 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:41.920 But I have been around somebody who was on it 0:11:42.000 --> 0:11:45.080 and they actually did talk quieter they do it does 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:47.720 it does work? For that? I will say that for cocaine, 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:50.319 it does make you want to talk now. And also 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:53.280 if you need to write a Hollywood screenplay and like 0:11:53.400 --> 0:11:58.200 one one hundred hour long writing session. Nothing really beats 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:02.080 cocaine for that. Apparently, as my my namesake, the other 0:12:02.200 --> 0:12:05.520 Robert Evans could have told you if his heart hadn't 0:12:05.559 --> 0:12:12.120 exploded from seventy years of shooting cocaine straight into his lungs. Um. 0:12:12.160 --> 0:12:14.320 But you know, I think you may also note that 0:12:14.320 --> 0:12:16.640 while cocaine does want to make people want to talk, 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.360 it doesn't make them reliably tell the truth. You can 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:23.800 actually lie really well while on a shipload of cocaine. UM. Otherwise, 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:28.400 nightclubs probably wouldn't exist in the same form. UM. So 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:32.680 cocaine not a great truth drug. After this comes heroin, UM, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:35.960 which if you were going to me and saying which 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.560 drug is least likely to be an effective truth serum, 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:42.360 I would probably say heroin. Stephen Kinzer writes that quote. 0:12:42.679 --> 0:12:46.080 Surviving CIA memos note that heroin was frequently used by 0:12:46.120 --> 0:12:49.679 police and intelligence officers, and that it and other addictive 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:52.440 substances can be useful in reverse because of the stress 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:54.440 as they produce when they're withdrawn from those who are 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:58.079 addicted to their use. So, in other words, cops, when 0:12:58.080 --> 0:13:00.640 the CIA is like, hey, you know, let's let's reach 0:13:00.679 --> 0:13:03.040 out to some cops. We know some narcotics guys. Let's 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:05.640 reach out to like the FBI. Uh. See what they 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.200 say about using heroin as a truth drug. All these 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.360 field agents are like, well, heroin is like great, uh, 0:13:12.400 --> 0:13:14.080 and a bunch of like a bunch of the people 0:13:14.120 --> 0:13:16.600 talk to them are CI agents who are like, well, yeah, 0:13:17.120 --> 0:13:19.160 you can use it as a truth drug for people. 0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:20.840 But like, the way it works is you get them 0:13:20.840 --> 0:13:24.040 addicted to heroin and then they'll do whatever you tell them, 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:28.800 right like, and then you take it away of yeah, 0:13:29.240 --> 0:13:33.240 withdrawal the promise of getting heroin, they will do whatever 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.280 you ask. But again, as with all interrogation techniques, nothing 0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.520 stopping them from just lying to you exactly, and that 0:13:39.640 --> 0:13:42.520 continues to be the problem. Um. One thing I did 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:44.880 find interesting is that like a lot of their early 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.839 info on heroin comes from narcotics agents and CIA field 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:51.800 agents who are like, the only reason I haven't killed 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.720 myself from doing this job is that I use heroin. Like, 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.280 those are a lot of their early sources, which tells 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:01.840 you a lot about these agencies. Um. There's like a 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:04.120 couple of very funny moments here. My favorite is that 0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.679 at one point using like working. As part of this program, 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.960 the Navy sponsors a study where they pay college students 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:12.640 to take heroin to see if it works as a 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:18.240 truth drug. Um it does not. Uh So the next 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.680 thing they try is mescal, And the Nazi doctors the 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:24.280 CIA had hired to help them with their torturing people 0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.800 at black sites had all given mescal into prisoners at Dokao. 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.240 And so when they bring these guys in, they tell 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.520 the CIA, Hey, mescalin seems like it might work as 0:14:34.120 --> 0:14:36.080 a truth s here. Maybe you should try that next. 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:39.600 But of course mescalin does not work that way. No 0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.840 drug works that way. I have lied to cops on 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.560 a number of hallucinogens. None of them seem to function 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:49.600 as a truth serum and my experience. But the assumptions 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:52.000 they're making here about how the mind works, that's the 0:14:52.120 --> 0:14:56.640 thing is it's almost to imply that when somebody is 0:14:56.680 --> 0:15:01.800 intoxicated that they're becoming more honest. I don't I think 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.720 that's true in almost any way. Like you lawre somebody's inhibitions, 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.200 they may be just as likely to say the most 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:12.240 outrageous thing they can think of. Like I I don't 0:15:12.680 --> 0:15:18.680 think that being incredibly drunk revealed like Nel Gibson's perfect 0:15:18.960 --> 0:15:21.520 true feelings. I think it made him more racist than 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:24.760 what he probably is in everyday life, because it just 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:29.080 unleashed his ability to just say the worst possible thing 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:32.840 that popped into his into his head. Yeah, And it's 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:36.560 also like I think the thing that and I think 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.120 they are starting to recognize that at this point because 0:15:39.160 --> 0:15:42.240 the early they keep having these experiments and like they 0:15:42.280 --> 0:15:45.400 never find their truth drug, but they do find. Like 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:47.440 one thing that is true is that people who are 0:15:47.480 --> 0:15:50.800 really fucked up are easier to manipulate, you know, like 0:15:50.840 --> 0:15:53.960 a drunk person. If you're sober, maybe you'll be it'll 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:55.920 be easy for you to get them to do something 0:15:55.960 --> 0:15:57.400 that you want them to do, right. And the same 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.920 thing is true within limits to people who are on 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:03.000 other substances. People are a little bit easier to like 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:07.160 convince to do things sometimes in certain ways. If those 0:16:07.200 --> 0:16:10.280 things aren't you can't, like somebody's tripping on acid, You're 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:12.480 probably not going to convince them to commit murder. But 0:16:12.560 --> 0:16:14.640 if they are the kind of person who is inclined 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:17.000 to like strip naked and one through a party, it 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:19.080 will be easier to convince than the strip naked and 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:21.320 run through a party, right they are. It does make 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.560 people suggestible in that way. So one thing that's happening 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.480 in this period is the CIA is moving away from like, 0:16:27.880 --> 0:16:31.240 well maybe this maybe we'll we'll we'll back burner, the 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:34.160 mind can or the truth serum, but we think this 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.800 stuff will let us program people because it does seem 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:39.600 to make them more susceptible, right, So that's kind of 0:16:40.040 --> 0:16:42.640 as they're sort of experimenting with this stuff. It's not 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:45.640 just truth serum. They're also like, is this the drug 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:48.920 that's gonna let us reprogram Soviet spies and like send 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.040 them back as saboteurs because that is increasingly the thing 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.160 that Dolus thinks is going to be possible. And they're 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.920 they're thinking about like, well, let's try giving them cocaine 0:16:56.920 --> 0:16:59.320 and then we'll hypnotize them. Let's try giving them mescaline 0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:01.720 and then we'll hypno ties them. And obviously none of 0:17:01.720 --> 0:17:04.639 this works great, but they're getting at least enough that 0:17:04.680 --> 0:17:07.719 they're convinced they're just sort of like one drug away 0:17:07.760 --> 0:17:10.720 from making it work. Um. And by the way, that 0:17:11.080 --> 0:17:14.240 the funniest part to me, And it's funny again in 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:17.679 the context that I mentioned earlier. It's darkly humorous is 0:17:17.920 --> 0:17:21.520 as far as I can tell. They now in two 0:17:21.800 --> 0:17:24.520 by far the most successful examples they have of like 0:17:24.560 --> 0:17:27.080 flipping people or turning people into double agents and all that. 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.000 It's just by giving them a big old suitcase full 0:17:30.040 --> 0:17:34.639 of cash that works really well, and they finally, finally, 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.320 after spending billions or however much money they spent on 0:17:37.359 --> 0:17:39.760 this stuff over the years, it's like, hey, we have 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.160 found a way that can manipulate to make somebody turn 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:46.000 against their own country, which is if you give them 0:17:46.119 --> 0:17:50.520 like a Lamborghini and a giant suitcase full of cold, 0:17:50.600 --> 0:17:53.760 hard cash, they're actually willing to flip on their own country, 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:58.680 their friends, their their comrades. Yeah, yeah, people will do 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.720 like I mean, you know, there's also still Heroin is 0:18:02.760 --> 0:18:05.240 actually still a big one. Like when the FBI was 0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.439 breaking up the green during the Green Scare, when the 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:13.080 FBI was like breaking up environmental extremists like organizations, they 0:18:13.119 --> 0:18:16.119 would often target like individuals who they knew were like 0:18:16.160 --> 0:18:19.520 addicted to smack. Because you find somebody who's got that addiction, 0:18:19.600 --> 0:18:21.440 you take it away from them, it's a little easier 0:18:21.480 --> 0:18:23.399 to get them to roll on their friends, or you 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.480 arrest them and you tell them like, hey, we've you've 0:18:25.520 --> 0:18:27.320 got this amount of stuff on you. We have you 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.439 did the rights. It's a twenty five year sentence unless 0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:32.840 you help us out by rolling on your friend. Right, Like, 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:37.000 all of these things can be used to control people's behavior, 0:18:37.359 --> 0:18:39.080 but none of it works. The two things that work 0:18:39.160 --> 0:18:43.000 best our prison time and money. Yeah, yeah, just threats 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.080 and threats and money, the same thing that worked years ago. 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:50.160 And the Soviets, by the way, never don't know this. Well, 0:18:50.200 --> 0:18:53.720 they're fucking around with the psychic research. They're just being like, well, 0:18:53.720 --> 0:18:58.960 we either bribe people or we hit them. This works great. Um, 0:18:59.000 --> 0:19:01.680 it's the CIA. It is convinced there's some much more 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:05.840 esoteric way to do this. Ship. Uh So Gottlieb, as 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.439 they kind of go through this rolodex of drugs and 0:19:08.480 --> 0:19:11.280 none of them work, starts to become convinced that the 0:19:11.359 --> 0:19:14.760 answer to his boss's prayers, to Dulus's prayers might be 0:19:15.200 --> 0:19:18.359 L S D. Because again he's read about this scientists, 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:22.520 smart people. Especially again, Gottlieb's kind of a proto hippie. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:25.080 You know, the hippie movement hasn't exist yet, but he's 0:19:25.160 --> 0:19:27.120 one of the kinds of people who's going to feed 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:31.439 into it um all of that, those kinds of those seekers, 0:19:31.440 --> 0:19:34.040 that people who are interested in mysticism and stuff. They're 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.280 all starting to talk about hallucinogens, and they're all starting 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:40.199 to talk about acid. So Gottlieb reaches out to Harold Abramson. 0:19:40.320 --> 0:19:42.840 Abramson is a doctor who had worked with the CIA 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.840 on past mind control and poison experiments. He was also 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:49.919 a seeker himself, and he'd taken LSD several times and 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:53.080 given it out to colleagues on multiple occasions. Acting as 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:56.920 one of the first modern trip sitters. Abramson gave Gottlieb 0:19:57.119 --> 0:19:59.840 l s D and the two hung out. Sidney wrote 0:19:59.840 --> 0:20:02.959 this about his first trip. I happen to experience an 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.960 out of bodiness, a feeling as though I am in 0:20:05.000 --> 0:20:08.000 a kind of transparent sausage skin that covers my whole 0:20:08.000 --> 0:20:10.520 body and it is shimmering, and I have a sense 0:20:10.560 --> 0:20:13.200 of well being and euphoria for most of the next 0:20:13.240 --> 0:20:17.000 hour or two hours, and then it gradually subsides. And 0:20:17.040 --> 0:20:19.320 I think he takes a pretty small dose, because LSD 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.639 a normal dose to LSD if you're like taking a 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:25.080 solid dose if you're actually tripping, it lasts like eight 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.640 to sometimes twelve hours. You know, like some you can 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:29.399 you can make it last longer if you take a 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.760 very heavy dose. Longest I've ever tripped is maybe eighteen hours. 0:20:33.320 --> 0:20:39.320 Jesus Christ. One reason why I've never experimented with the 0:20:39.359 --> 0:20:41.840 stuff is I absolutely would be the guy who just 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:46.640 sits there, like my body is a sausage. I'm assigned 0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:50.760 a skin sausage. It's not an unpleasant thing necessarily to 0:20:50.840 --> 0:20:56.200 be a skin sausage. Um LS like LSD is whenever 0:20:56.240 --> 0:21:00.679 I recommend, like if people are curious about hallucinogen, silo 0:21:00.760 --> 0:21:03.600 cybin is by far like the easiest to start with 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.280 because kind of no matter how much you take your 0:21:06.280 --> 0:21:08.639 top out at three or four hours, So it is 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:10.359 the kind if you have a bad time, it's going 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:13.400 to be over soon. LSD. If you take too much 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:15.879 or have a bad time, it can be really unpleasant 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.119 because it lasts a long time. So it's it's the 0:21:18.200 --> 0:21:21.600 kind of thing people shouldn't mess around with unless they've 0:21:21.640 --> 0:21:24.320 like built up to it. That that would be my opinion. 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.760 I'm not telling you to commit illegal acts by taking drugs, 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.800 but maybe I wouldn't start with LSD if if you're 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.800 asking for my advice on this stuff. Um, But the 0:21:33.840 --> 0:21:36.560 other advice is to go to a very reliable source 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:38.800 where you know how much you're getting. Yeah, because I 0:21:38.840 --> 0:21:40.720 think half the people I've ever talked to have taken 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:43.000 acid have an experience for one time they took it, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.919 absolutely nothing happened. Yeah, It's like, well, yeah, because you 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.360 just got it sold to you by a guy and 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:50.720 he just gave you a piece of paper, like and 0:21:51.480 --> 0:21:53.679 and nowadays a lot another problem is that, like you 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:56.480 don't usually know you're getting acid, there's a bunch of 0:21:56.560 --> 0:21:59.639 other research chemicals that work similarly that you can also 0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:02.159 that you could just dissolve in water and put on stuff, 0:22:02.440 --> 0:22:05.720 and they're easier to get that acid. Um, which is 0:22:05.840 --> 0:22:09.000 normally fine. A lot of people probably take something that's 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.480 not acid, think it's acid and have a good time. 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:14.440 But some of that stuff has more healthcare. LSD is 0:22:14.520 --> 0:22:17.760 fairly safe actually, unless you're taking nightmare doses of it, 0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:19.639 like it doesn't. I don't think it even has a 0:22:19.640 --> 0:22:22.760 recorded LD fifty. I'm sure. I'm sure they found enough 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.560 to kill people, but like it's very difficult to have 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.119 like an overdose in the way that is like like 0:22:28.200 --> 0:22:32.320 heroin or something. Um. But there are other research chemicals 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:35.040 that you can die on that people sometimes just sell 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:38.400 as acid because it's an illegal, unregulated market, right, which 0:22:38.440 --> 0:22:41.240 is as Jason said, you should always know your dealer 0:22:41.280 --> 0:22:43.359 if you want to start playing around with this stuff. 0:22:43.560 --> 0:22:46.720 There's organizations like Project Dance Safe that sell test kits 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.919 for a number of different substances. If it's possible to 0:22:50.000 --> 0:22:53.040 test and know what you're taking, you always should. Um, 0:22:53.359 --> 0:22:56.560 they're not we're advising illegal acts. Yeah, there's sebredits that 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:00.240 do nothing but discuss, like share information about this kind 0:23:00.240 --> 0:23:02.399 of thing, which, as much as we criticize Reddit and 0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:05.919 actually having a community like that um to warn you 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:08.280 about what to lookout for things like that actually matters 0:23:08.280 --> 0:23:10.399 a lot. This has always been an argument for the 0:23:10.480 --> 0:23:14.360 legalization because then you can actually know precisely what you're getting. Yeah, 0:23:14.480 --> 0:23:17.040 you know, Um, but that that is the argument I 0:23:17.119 --> 0:23:19.240 would make. But that's we're we're off the off the 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:23.080 map below here. So LSD. Gottlieb has his first trip 0:23:23.200 --> 0:23:25.479 and he has a pretty good time with it. Um, 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.520 he starts to get kind of obsessed with it. And 0:23:29.520 --> 0:23:31.920 this is a thing I can't prove this subjectively. I 0:23:31.960 --> 0:23:34.600 haven't even found this written any of the writing about Gottlieb. 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:36.560 But like a thing that I have noticed in my 0:23:36.600 --> 0:23:38.640 own life as a guy who hangs out and does 0:23:38.720 --> 0:23:42.080 drugs is some people just kind of get obsessed with LSD. 0:23:42.320 --> 0:23:45.600 It is a particular thing to LSD. It had you noticed, 0:23:45.640 --> 0:23:48.120 like Albert Hoffman, right, for whatever reason, before he even 0:23:48.160 --> 0:23:51.359 takes it, he they synthesize this thing and for five 0:23:51.440 --> 0:23:53.160 years he can't get it out of his head until 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:55.800 he actually tries it. Right. There's just kind of something 0:23:55.840 --> 0:23:59.240 that certain people find really fascinating about this substance. And 0:23:59.280 --> 0:24:02.400 I think as much is everything else. The fact that 0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:05.600 Gottlieb just kind of gets obsessed with acid is a 0:24:05.600 --> 0:24:08.280 big part of why it becomes the drug of m 0:24:08.359 --> 0:24:11.199 K ultra right, because it doesn't work any better than 0:24:11.240 --> 0:24:14.359 these other drugs. It does not, again spoilers, none of 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:18.400 this creates a perfect mind control drug. Um. Probably we'll 0:24:18.400 --> 0:24:20.879 get to that a bit later. Um, but it is 0:24:20.920 --> 0:24:22.919 It's a thing I've seen happen to more people. And 0:24:22.920 --> 0:24:24.520 this is not usually a bad thing. People just like 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.080 take a lot of acid that can be fine. Um, 0:24:27.119 --> 0:24:31.159 and chemists and neuroscientists are especially likely to find themselves 0:24:31.240 --> 0:24:34.119 fascinated by LSD. You will, this is about to happen 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:36.800 to a whole generation of very smart people, Folks like 0:24:36.880 --> 0:24:43.600 Kinksey Um, Folks like uh oh, Jesus, Timothy Leary. Goddamn um, 0:24:43.720 --> 0:24:47.360 I can't believe I forgot Timothy Leary's name. Uh. So, yeah, 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:50.520 you have this like generation of like all And and 0:24:50.680 --> 0:24:54.560 Leary and uh And and Kinks and whatnot. They're all 0:24:54.640 --> 0:24:57.080 kind of in a lot of ways similar people to Gottlieb. 0:24:57.520 --> 0:25:00.920 They have these similar opinions. Unlike these this grarian back 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:04.080 to you know, nature sort of stuff. They they're they're 0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.960 these they're fascinated by Eastern mysticism and spiritualism. Like the 0:25:08.040 --> 0:25:11.680 degree to which the CIA's head poison guy is kind 0:25:11.680 --> 0:25:16.160 of a hippie is very important to this story. Um. Now, 0:25:16.200 --> 0:25:18.919 at no point did Gottlieb have any hard evidence that 0:25:19.080 --> 0:25:21.639 LSD would make a better truth serum or mind control 0:25:21.680 --> 0:25:24.359 drug than any other narcotic he tested. But he starts 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:26.960 to become convinced that it holds the secret to all 0:25:27.000 --> 0:25:29.360 of the things he's trying to accomplish for Alan Dullis, 0:25:29.359 --> 0:25:31.359 and so he's going to spend the next ten years 0:25:31.720 --> 0:25:34.720 dosing possibly tens of thousands of people to try and 0:25:34.720 --> 0:25:38.920 improve that. First, he starts by dosing other CIA agents 0:25:38.960 --> 0:25:43.120 and some scientists working in adjacent government spook projects because 0:25:43.119 --> 0:25:45.800 they're testing initially, they're trying to use this as a weapon, right, 0:25:45.840 --> 0:25:48.480 They're still trying to see, like, can this be used 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:50.800 to like take over somebody's mind. Can this be used 0:25:50.840 --> 0:25:54.239 to at least, like, you know, disable a spy. A 0:25:54.280 --> 0:25:56.800 lot of these guys agree to be dosed by surprise, 0:25:56.920 --> 0:26:00.240 so this is consensual, right, There's nothing wrong with saying, yes, 0:26:00.320 --> 0:26:02.960 you can sneak LSD into my food at a random 0:26:03.000 --> 0:26:04.920 point in time, because we want to see what happens 0:26:05.119 --> 0:26:07.320 when you're surprised by LSD in the middle of like 0:26:07.320 --> 0:26:09.800 a workday. Because nobody has done that, right, they have 0:26:09.880 --> 0:26:13.720 not started like horribly doing things with this yet, but 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:16.080 you can see kind of where stuff's about to go. 0:26:16.200 --> 0:26:18.080 Because the very next group of people they start to 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:22.760 drug is army trainees, and these people are have agreed 0:26:22.800 --> 0:26:24.959 to be in studies for the army. They don't know 0:26:25.000 --> 0:26:27.360 that they're going to be dosed with LSD, so they're 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:29.840 just kind of like drugging eighteen year old boys with 0:26:29.880 --> 0:26:33.199 this mystery substance that nobody's really tested. Um, and a 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:36.960 lot of people have very terrible experiences, which probably shouldn't 0:26:37.000 --> 0:26:39.600 surprise you. Um, it does seem like a lot of 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:41.920 these Army guys have great times too, and a lot 0:26:41.920 --> 0:26:43.959 of the CIA guys have a lot of this. Like 0:26:44.119 --> 0:26:47.240 is they're partying right, Like they're not just dosing each 0:26:47.280 --> 0:26:51.480 other and taking diligent notes. They're like having a good time. Um, 0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:53.960 and you know the government's paying for it. In these 0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:58.159 early days, Gottlieben, his fellow Bluebird Artichoke researchers, dosed themselves 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:00.480 more often than they do to anyone else. They'd carry 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:03.159 out fake interrogations and try to convince each other to 0:27:03.160 --> 0:27:06.199 give up secrets that they promised before taking drugs not 0:27:06.320 --> 0:27:08.720 to tell um. And they were able to get each 0:27:08.720 --> 0:27:12.360 other and army officers to reveal like secrets. But this 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:14.800 is like this is not a real test, right, Like 0:27:14.840 --> 0:27:17.359 they're agreeing ahead of time, what's the secret? You're not 0:27:17.440 --> 0:27:19.639 going to give up? Okay, Now we're gonna drug you 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:20.800 and we'll see if we can get you to give 0:27:20.880 --> 0:27:22.840 up the secret. Jason, can you think of any reason 0:27:22.880 --> 0:27:25.679 why that might not be replicable to actually trying to 0:27:25.720 --> 0:27:31.000 get information out of somebody. Really hard to overstate the 0:27:31.080 --> 0:27:34.400 role of consent in this whole thing. Yes, and they're 0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:37.760 playing a game which even at that, at that early stage, 0:27:37.800 --> 0:27:41.359 they should have. It feels like basic logic should have 0:27:42.200 --> 0:27:47.440 played a role in this. But yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, 0:27:47.600 --> 0:27:50.639 so this is all very flawed and everything they're going 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:53.680 to do is deeply flawed research at like the conceptual 0:27:53.840 --> 0:27:56.520 level in ways that I don't part of it's probably 0:27:56.560 --> 0:28:01.720 just that the concept of hallucinogens um, particular, particularly like 0:28:02.240 --> 0:28:05.560 artificially created hallucinogens, you know, because LSD does not just 0:28:05.680 --> 0:28:08.480 randomly occur in the way that like mushrooms do, is 0:28:08.560 --> 0:28:10.760 much newer than so I think some of it's just 0:28:10.760 --> 0:28:13.080 that people don't understand this stuff as well. But it 0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:16.520 does really seem like they're making basic failures of logic 0:28:16.640 --> 0:28:20.760 here um. But there are some reasons I have to say, 0:28:20.800 --> 0:28:23.280 there are some reasons why you can see people at 0:28:23.280 --> 0:28:25.160 this time would have thought LSD could be a really 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:28.600 good weapon for like spy ship um acid is colorless 0:28:28.600 --> 0:28:31.880 and odorless. You can put it in basically any liquid 0:28:32.080 --> 0:28:35.199 or other kind of substance, and people can't there's no 0:28:35.240 --> 0:28:37.640 way to tell that you have asset on you. Um, 0:28:37.760 --> 0:28:41.280 so you can transport significant quantities of it without being 0:28:41.320 --> 0:28:44.480 detected in a pretty much infinite number of ways. It's 0:28:45.160 --> 0:28:47.520 once you are able to make it, it's pretty much 0:28:47.560 --> 0:28:50.840 free on a per dose basis, and very small amounts 0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.400 of asset have gigantic effects. So there's good reasons why 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:56.000 the substance is like, well, yeah, if you could make 0:28:56.040 --> 0:28:58.520 this work for us, this would be a great thing. 0:28:58.600 --> 0:29:01.000 We can very easily sneak this on spies and get 0:29:01.000 --> 0:29:03.720 them into anywhere. Okay, But I think I want to 0:29:03.760 --> 0:29:05.200 ask the question that I think a lot of the 0:29:05.240 --> 0:29:08.560 listeners are asking, which is like today, when we hear 0:29:08.600 --> 0:29:11.440 about the experiments done with the stuff, it's experiments on 0:29:11.760 --> 0:29:15.080 like trying to cure people with PTSD, trying to cure depression, 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:18.320 trying to like if it affects the brain that much, 0:29:18.320 --> 0:29:21.680 if people claim to have had almost a holy experience 0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:24.720 on it, that's like, well could it? You know, it 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:28.479 feels like it shouldn't have just been the CIA dealing 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.080 with this. It feels like you should have had whatever 0:29:31.120 --> 0:29:35.760 the giant pharmaceutical companies were at the time experimenting with 0:29:35.880 --> 0:29:38.520 it as a therapy, saying, what could this be the 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:43.080 drug that will make housewives okay with they with staying 0:29:43.120 --> 0:29:45.840 at home and doing nothing but laundry all day. Do 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:47.920 you see what I'm saying? Was that going on or 0:29:48.080 --> 0:29:50.840 was it just the CIA that was doing that was 0:29:50.880 --> 0:29:53.440 working with this stuff. We're actually going to talk about 0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:55.800 that in a little bit. Yes, this is going on 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.000 to an extent, but it's very limited at this point 0:29:59.040 --> 0:30:01.440 in time. The only people in the world who can 0:30:01.440 --> 0:30:04.920 make LSD are Sandals laboratories, right, they have figured it 0:30:04.920 --> 0:30:07.320 out and they're not sharing the recipe, so they are 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:11.280 the only source of LSD. They're only making a limited amount, 0:30:11.800 --> 0:30:14.959 and the CIA buys basically all of it. They do 0:30:15.120 --> 0:30:18.280 send a bunch out for research. There are other organizations 0:30:18.360 --> 0:30:21.320 researching this. There's actually in the Soviet Union and all 0:30:21.360 --> 0:30:25.080 over the world there's actual studies therapeutic studies on LSD 0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:28.720 in this period. But the majority of the drug by weight, 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:34.480 goes to the c I. A okay, yeah, they that's 0:30:34.520 --> 0:30:36.000 that tells you a lot about the state of the 0:30:36.040 --> 0:30:39.480 world at the time that they priorities or whatever, because 0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.720 you have everything they think they know about this. It's 0:30:42.760 --> 0:30:45.280 not just oh, this would make a good weapon, Like 0:30:45.400 --> 0:30:47.000 on the list of things you could do with it 0:30:47.080 --> 0:30:50.040 to change the world, that's not even in the top 0:30:50.080 --> 0:30:54.320 one hundred, Like when you're talking about, oh, this totally alters, 0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:56.840 you know, the way people behave, the way they can 0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:59.680 be influenced, the way they think that, you know, like 0:31:00.040 --> 0:31:02.880 we're everybody who takes it becomes obsessed with it. And 0:31:02.880 --> 0:31:06.360 it's like you would think just the pure capitalism of 0:31:06.400 --> 0:31:08.440 the country would come into places like, oh, this is 0:31:08.560 --> 0:31:10.760 we could make a bunch of money. It's cheap to make, 0:31:10.800 --> 0:31:13.120 people will pay a lot of money for it. The 0:31:13.160 --> 0:31:16.840 fact that it's there, I guess it's just a limit 0:31:17.040 --> 0:31:19.400 of the imagination. When you're in like a war footing, 0:31:19.600 --> 0:31:22.640 it's like, no, this could you could get your theory 0:31:22.720 --> 0:31:26.840 like they have these convoluted, almost cartoonish ideas of like, well, 0:31:26.880 --> 0:31:29.600 in theory, if you could inject a spy with it, 0:31:30.400 --> 0:31:37.040 you could make him do this if we also, yeah, 0:31:37.200 --> 0:31:43.000 there's just this. It's it's because like number one, the 0:31:43.040 --> 0:31:47.880 sand DAWs is I think kind of they're looking for 0:31:49.360 --> 0:31:52.080 any kind of use that will make this profitable, right, 0:31:52.160 --> 0:31:54.920 and so the first group that has that puts a 0:31:54.960 --> 0:31:57.880 lot of money down for acid is the c I A. 0:31:58.040 --> 0:32:01.000 So that has an impact from the beginning, like who 0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:03.120 else gets it and how much of it is available? 0:32:03.640 --> 0:32:07.520 And I just don't think. I don't think guys like 0:32:07.600 --> 0:32:11.320 Gottlieb when they hear stuff like because there is early 0:32:11.360 --> 0:32:14.040 research on LSD and alcoholism, and when they hear stuff 0:32:14.080 --> 0:32:18.080 like we can treat alcoholism with LSD, all these guys 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:20.120 because they are, as you said, they're so focused on 0:32:20.160 --> 0:32:22.640 this war. All they hear is that just that means 0:32:22.680 --> 0:32:25.160 that you can change people with this. You can change there. 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:28.120 You can alter a person's mindset, you can like control 0:32:28.160 --> 0:32:29.959 their mind. If you can get them to stop being 0:32:29.960 --> 0:32:32.440 an alcoholic, maybe you can stop them from being a communist, 0:32:32.520 --> 0:32:35.360 you know, Like that's that's straight where they go. And 0:32:35.400 --> 0:32:38.360 they have the ability to effectively buy up the world's 0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:41.200 supply of acid, which they do in this period. In fact, 0:32:41.240 --> 0:32:43.680 all of the LSD that gets out in the early 0:32:43.720 --> 0:32:46.480 eras of the hippie movement, and like is the is 0:32:46.520 --> 0:32:49.400 the acid that like fucking dudes like Hunter Thompson and 0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.760 the Beatles are taking right that ship all comes from 0:32:52.800 --> 0:32:56.600 the CIA. Oh, I had no idea but it makes sense. 0:32:57.080 --> 0:33:01.040 I mean that's you know, and not all just as 0:33:01.040 --> 0:33:03.720 part as MK ultra. Because guys like Abramson, who gives 0:33:03.720 --> 0:33:07.120 Gottlieba's first dose, he's working with the CIA as a contractor. 0:33:07.360 --> 0:33:09.400 He's also just a guy who's interested in this and 0:33:09.440 --> 0:33:11.840 does it with his friends. And his friends include a 0:33:11.840 --> 0:33:14.920 lot of these like influential intellectuals who are going to 0:33:14.960 --> 0:33:18.200 be big leaders in the sixties. Um. And so they 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:20.960 all start taking LSD that he gets from the CIA. Together. 0:33:21.040 --> 0:33:26.880 That's like how acid gets out. It's through the agency, um, 0:33:26.920 --> 0:33:29.680 not always in controlled ways, not always as parts of studies. 0:33:29.720 --> 0:33:31.560 But we're building to that. But you know what else 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:36.680 we're building towards Jason an ad break an ad break, Jason, 0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:44.360 have you ever heard of Blue Apron No. I it's 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:46.920 weird because I listened to like four hours of podcast today, 0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:49.720 but I've never it's never come up. Well, that's a 0:33:49.960 --> 0:33:52.280 it's a company that makes food boxes, and we used 0:33:52.280 --> 0:33:54.800 to have a running joke here behind the Bastards about 0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:56.760 how they also had an island where people could hunt 0:33:56.840 --> 0:33:59.880 children for sport. And I thought, Jason, I thought that 0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:02.400 was a joke that everyone would recognize as a joke. 0:34:02.760 --> 0:34:05.040 But it turns out a lot of people messaged us 0:34:05.080 --> 0:34:09.160 distraught thinking that there was a real child hunting island. Um, 0:34:09.200 --> 0:34:11.640 so now we're warning people and a couple of different 0:34:11.680 --> 0:34:15.280 episodes of the show there's no child hunting island. It's fine. 0:34:15.719 --> 0:34:17.640 That was a joke. We're not going to make the 0:34:17.719 --> 0:34:21.680 joke anymore. Please please stop being worried that Blue Apron 0:34:21.719 --> 0:34:26.560 has an island where people hunt children for sport. They don't. Anyway, 0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:37.640 here's ads possibly including Blue Apron. Ah, we're back, um, 0:34:37.680 --> 0:34:42.879 and we're talking about Sydney, Gottlieb and the CIA. So 0:34:43.600 --> 0:34:46.239 the other reason that Gottlieb is able to kind of 0:34:46.239 --> 0:34:49.239 get the agency to focus on LST there's you know, 0:34:49.280 --> 0:34:51.279 it makes sense, there's reasons why it might be a 0:34:51.280 --> 0:34:54.080 good weapon. Um. But he's able to bring up a 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:57.320 bunch of Russian scientific journals, which in the early fifties 0:34:57.440 --> 0:35:00.319 start to file the first Soviet Union report on the 0:35:00.360 --> 0:35:03.880 discovery of LSD. Obviously LSD has existed for a while. 0:35:04.280 --> 0:35:06.799 Information does not travel as fast in these days, so 0:35:06.880 --> 0:35:09.719 the Soviets kind of start, you start and this is 0:35:09.719 --> 0:35:12.320 not there's actually nothing sinister here. It's just academics in 0:35:12.360 --> 0:35:14.680 the Soviet Union, who are like, and now there's this 0:35:14.680 --> 0:35:16.719 this thing called acid, and we're getting small amounts of 0:35:16.719 --> 0:35:19.800 it from Sandas and we're testing it in these ways. Um. 0:35:19.840 --> 0:35:22.680 This causes dolus Is analysts to claim that the l 0:35:22.920 --> 0:35:25.680 the U S s R is stockpiling argot as a 0:35:25.760 --> 0:35:29.640 raw material. Um. Now their own assessments admit there's no 0:35:29.760 --> 0:35:32.800 evidence that this is happening. And in fact, here's exactly 0:35:32.840 --> 0:35:36.600 what dollus Is analysts right. Quote. Although no Soviet data 0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:40.160 are available in LSDI, it must be assumed that the 0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:43.160 scientists of the U. S. S are are thoroughly cognizant 0:35:43.200 --> 0:35:45.840 of the strategic importance of this powerful new drug and 0:35:45.880 --> 0:35:49.479 are capable of producing it at any time. That's must 0:35:49.520 --> 0:35:52.200 be assumed that we have to be a key phrase 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:54.480 that I think is going to get used, that's gonna 0:35:54.520 --> 0:35:57.799 get used a lot. Yeah, that like, yeah, we just 0:35:57.920 --> 0:36:00.640 have to assume that not only do they think the 0:36:00.680 --> 0:36:02.520 same thing about this is us, which is that it 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:06.080 should be used to destroy people's minds, but they're already 0:36:06.120 --> 0:36:09.480 mass producing it. Obviously they are not. Uh, it is 0:36:09.520 --> 0:36:12.319 hard to make acid. No one knows how to other 0:36:12.360 --> 0:36:14.879 than sand DAWs. Yet and the Soviet Union as far 0:36:14.920 --> 0:36:18.560 as all evidence suggests, the Soviet Union has no capacity 0:36:18.600 --> 0:36:21.640 for manufacturing LSD at this point. Um, it's going to 0:36:21.680 --> 0:36:24.520 take years before a US company with c I A 0:36:24.640 --> 0:36:28.920 help will crack the recipe. Um. But yeah, it is 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:31.840 worth noting that kind of about it. This is actually 0:36:31.840 --> 0:36:33.600 there's not even l s D as far as we 0:36:33.640 --> 0:36:35.799 can tell in the Soviet Union in this period in 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:38.600 the early fifties. I think the first evidence that we 0:36:38.680 --> 0:36:41.279 have of acid in the Soviet Union starts in the 0:36:41.320 --> 0:36:46.279 early nineteen sixties when Communist Bulgaria starts carrying out a 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:49.560 series of LSD experiments, this from sixty two to sixty eight, 0:36:49.960 --> 0:36:52.800 and it's again to kind of as evidence that there's 0:36:52.840 --> 0:36:55.280 not really capacity to make this in the Iron Curtain. 0:36:55.440 --> 0:36:58.480 When Bulgaria starts experimenting with acid, they buy it all 0:36:58.520 --> 0:37:03.080 from sand DAWs Sandas Library sends it to them. Um, 0:37:03.239 --> 0:37:05.960 sand DAWs is selling LSD under the generic name to 0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:10.080 Delhi sid Um and they spend about three million dollars 0:37:10.120 --> 0:37:13.320 giving their new hallucinogen to universities and mental hospitals in 0:37:13.360 --> 0:37:16.799 the early nineteen sixties. So again that's well after the 0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:19.080 period we're up to in the actual and k Ultra story. 0:37:19.120 --> 0:37:21.040 You know, this is all being fucked with by the 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:23.920 CIA before pretty much anyone is able to study it. 0:37:24.200 --> 0:37:25.840 And I'm gonna quote from a write up in Atlas 0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:29.960 Obscurity here. Among the human guinea pigs were doctors, artists, miners, 0:37:30.000 --> 0:37:33.080 truck drivers, and even prisoners and mentally ill patients. These 0:37:33.120 --> 0:37:35.880 research subjects were involved in some hundred and forty trials. 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:38.640 Their aim for these experiments with LSD was to allow 0:37:38.719 --> 0:37:42.719 scientists to understand psychotic disorders like schizophrenia better by using 0:37:42.760 --> 0:37:45.879 the drug to mimic the effects of a naturally occurring psychosis. 0:37:46.280 --> 0:37:49.880 There were some similarities between drug induced psychosis and natural ones, 0:37:50.080 --> 0:37:52.040 but it was easier to do a controlled study when 0:37:52.120 --> 0:37:57.160 causing psychosis through drugs. So in Czechoslovakia, which is also 0:37:57.200 --> 0:38:00.320 a communist state at this period, LSD is per fickly 0:38:00.320 --> 0:38:03.080 illegal and available over the counter. This is like most 0:38:03.120 --> 0:38:05.359 of the nineteen sixties. If you're living in the Czech 0:38:05.400 --> 0:38:08.440 repoor in Czechoslovakia, you can walk down to like the 0:38:08.480 --> 0:38:12.400 pharmacy and you can just buy some acid. I have 0:38:12.440 --> 0:38:15.720 to ask when did it become illegal in the United States? 0:38:15.760 --> 0:38:20.200 Because it was a brand new substance banned immediately. No, no, no, 0:38:20.280 --> 0:38:22.800 it's not. It's it's legal for most of the period, 0:38:22.840 --> 0:38:27.760 like the hippie period. Um, that's why I thought, Yeah, 0:38:27.800 --> 0:38:30.200 it is not banned in the United States until nineteen 0:38:30.320 --> 0:38:33.920 sixty eight. Um. Yeah, largely as the result of like 0:38:34.040 --> 0:38:36.239 some of the stuff that you know, a bunch of 0:38:36.320 --> 0:38:39.799 you know, that's a story for another day. Um, But 0:38:39.920 --> 0:38:42.880 for most of the nineteen sixties and Czechoslovakia, you know, 0:38:42.920 --> 0:38:45.799 the Bulgarians are doing acid studies with LSD they've bought 0:38:45.800 --> 0:38:49.759 from Sandaz. Czechoslovakia is getting acid from Sandas too, And 0:38:49.880 --> 0:38:51.920 rather than it being like a thing that like is 0:38:51.960 --> 0:38:56.719 being secretly used on people behind like the scenes, people 0:38:56.719 --> 0:39:01.600 are just buying acid from pharmacies in like communist Czechoslovakia. 0:39:02.000 --> 0:39:05.879 Doctors at psychiatric hospitals are taking acid so that they 0:39:05.880 --> 0:39:08.600 can understand what it's like to be schizophrenic. I mean, 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:11.040 I don't know how well that actually prepares you to 0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:13.920 treat somebody, but that's how they're using it, right, Like 0:39:13.960 --> 0:39:16.160 it's like we've got all these people who are hearing voices, 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:18.880 Let's take this drug so that maybe we can understand 0:39:18.880 --> 0:39:23.319 them better. Um. Eventually, a Check pharmaceutical company cracks the 0:39:23.400 --> 0:39:26.799 recipe and millions of doses are produced and given out 0:39:26.840 --> 0:39:32.280 for free across the country. Um Numerous scientists, including Stanislav Groff, 0:39:32.680 --> 0:39:36.120 took LSD and had experiences in this time that impacted 0:39:36.120 --> 0:39:39.719 their future work. Artists dosed themselves to great effect, as 0:39:39.760 --> 0:39:42.279 this piece from an article in PRIs Kros, which is 0:39:42.320 --> 0:39:46.160 a Check news site, makes clear. Among them were well 0:39:46.160 --> 0:39:49.200 known painters such as Evo Medic and Jerry Enderley, as 0:39:49.280 --> 0:39:52.440 well as young intellectual singers and students. According to an 0:39:52.520 --> 0:39:55.360 unverified account, one of them was the current CHECK president 0:39:55.520 --> 0:39:59.160 Milo Simon. A number of years later, Carol Got reluctantly 0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:02.280 admitted that he just once took LSD in the presence 0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:05.640 of doctors. I returned to my earliest childhood memories buried 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:09.640 deep within my subconsciousness. Many participants of the psychedelic sessions, 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:13.479 especially artists, recalled their explorations of LSD is unique even 0:40:13.560 --> 0:40:18.600 formative experience. However, others experienced so called bad trips. Suicide 0:40:18.680 --> 0:40:22.400 soon followed, and several main centers, especially the psychiatric hospital 0:40:22.440 --> 0:40:25.279 in Satska near Prague, research was carried out on a 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:28.640 mass scale. According to unconfirmed reports, one of the provincial 0:40:28.680 --> 0:40:31.319 hospitals carried out tests on children as young as three 0:40:31.400 --> 0:40:35.080 years old who were experiencing mental health issues. In another hospital, 0:40:35.160 --> 0:40:40.640 experiments were supposedly carried out on prisoners. So everybody does 0:40:40.760 --> 0:40:43.319 fucked up ship with this. Every state does when they 0:40:43.320 --> 0:40:47.000 get access to it. Um although they're not trying to 0:40:47.200 --> 0:40:49.720 write like the checks, aren't trying to create a mind 0:40:49.719 --> 0:40:52.560 control drug. They're just like, maybe this will cure kids 0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:54.759 with illnesses we don't understand. Let's give it to that 0:40:54.800 --> 0:40:57.520 three year old, which isn't good behavior, but it's not 0:40:57.640 --> 0:41:06.040 like malicious, right, it's there's a little here responsible. Yeah. Yeah, 0:41:06.120 --> 0:41:09.120 and there's a level of ignorance around the substance. But 0:41:09.200 --> 0:41:12.200 the way you the way you become knowledgeable is not well, 0:41:12.280 --> 0:41:15.520 let's see what happens to mentally all three year olds. Yeah, 0:41:15.600 --> 0:41:20.399 that's certainly not ideal. Yeah, and then we'll know and 0:41:20.400 --> 0:41:22.759 then be ignorant anymore. After all, how else are we 0:41:22.760 --> 0:41:25.479 going to find out? Yeah? We we who knows what else? 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:29.000 Like I don't know, and they are like, I'd be 0:41:29.080 --> 0:41:31.400 really interested. This is an area where I don't know 0:41:31.440 --> 0:41:33.239 as much. I'd be really interested in, Like what they 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:39.560 actually found in terms of how this impacted doctors treating patients. Um, 0:41:39.600 --> 0:41:42.960 but yeah, I don't have great context on that, but 0:41:43.000 --> 0:41:45.680 this is a thing that's going on in this period. 0:41:46.160 --> 0:41:50.279 It does eventually, the check security services they're kind of 0:41:50.360 --> 0:41:54.080 KGB or c I a equivalent, start to do some 0:41:54.239 --> 0:41:57.160 early research on whether or not they could weaponize LSD. 0:41:57.239 --> 0:41:59.880 And again this is like a decade after they do 0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:02.680 US in the United States, so they're like, well behind 0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:06.359 the curve here. Um, they do some early kind of experiments, 0:42:06.400 --> 0:42:10.480 there's no record of anything serious. Um, the primary interest, 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:12.960 like the State Security Service, gets into this and they 0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:15.239 kind of say, oh, maybe we can weaponize this. But 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:18.040 the thing they actually start doing is using it to 0:42:18.040 --> 0:42:20.760 make a shipload of money because they kind of always 0:42:20.760 --> 0:42:22.640 have a cash flow problem. This is true of all 0:42:22.680 --> 0:42:26.920 of the communist security services, and they recognize that like, 0:42:27.400 --> 0:42:31.080 oh shit, Americans will Europeans will pay a funkload for 0:42:31.200 --> 0:42:34.160 LSD just to party. And so for nearly a decade, 0:42:34.200 --> 0:42:37.160 a huge amount of the LSD and like the early 0:42:37.320 --> 0:42:39.480 like right before it gets banned and right after it 0:42:39.520 --> 0:42:42.560 gets banned, a lot of the LSD that gets into 0:42:42.600 --> 0:42:44.960 Western Europe and the United States and kind of the 0:42:45.040 --> 0:42:48.000 late nineteen sixties, including the famous Summers of sixty eight 0:42:48.040 --> 0:42:51.400 and sixty nine. Comes from the Check Intelligence Services, and 0:42:51.440 --> 0:42:55.040 they're smuggling acid to the West, not to destroy capitalism, 0:42:55.160 --> 0:42:58.719 but because they they want they need money. It's very 0:42:58.760 --> 0:43:02.160 profitable to sell drugs, it turns out. So that's kind 0:43:02.200 --> 0:43:05.480 of a fun story. Um, that's all more than a 0:43:05.520 --> 0:43:07.880 decade in the future from the CIA stuff. But the 0:43:07.920 --> 0:43:10.080 point is there's never as far as I found, there's 0:43:10.120 --> 0:43:14.440 not ever any real Soviet LSD mind control experiments, And 0:43:14.520 --> 0:43:17.239 in the early nineteen fifties, there's no evidence that any 0:43:17.239 --> 0:43:20.080 communist country even saw the drug as having that kind 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:22.480 of potential. They didn't have a lot of access to it, 0:43:22.520 --> 0:43:24.680 so it would have been hard for them too. After 0:43:24.719 --> 0:43:27.960 a few months of benign experimentation on his friends and colleagues, 0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:31.240 Gottlieb leaves the United States to test LSD on human 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:34.680 prisoners for the first time. One study later reported quote 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:37.759 in nineteen fifty one, a team of CIA scientists led 0:43:37.760 --> 0:43:41.200 by Dr Gottlieb flew to Tokyo, Japanese suspected of working 0:43:41.239 --> 0:43:43.719 with the Russians were secretly brought to a location where 0:43:43.719 --> 0:43:46.920 the CIA doctors injected them with a variety of depressants 0:43:46.920 --> 0:43:50.040 and stimulants. Under relentless questioning, they confessed to working for 0:43:50.080 --> 0:43:52.960 the Russians. They were taken out into Tokyo Bay, shot 0:43:53.040 --> 0:43:56.040 and dumped overboard. The CIA team flew to Soul in 0:43:56.040 --> 0:43:58.799 South Korea and repeated the experiment on twenty five North 0:43:58.880 --> 0:44:02.520 Korean prisoners of war or They were asked to announce communism. 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:05.920 They refused and were executed. In nineteen fifty two, Don'tus 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.320 brought Dr Gottlieb in his team to post war Munich 0:44:08.360 --> 0:44:10.480 in southern Germany. They set up a base in a 0:44:10.520 --> 0:44:12.960 safe house. Throughout the winter of nineteen fifty two to 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:16.040 fifty three, scores of expendables were brought to the safe house. 0:44:16.280 --> 0:44:18.520 They were given massive amounts of drugs, some of which 0:44:18.560 --> 0:44:21.000 Frank Olsen had prepared back at Detric which is where 0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:23.040 they're the camp where they're doing this, to see if 0:44:23.040 --> 0:44:26.320 their minds could be altered. They were given electro convulsive shocks. 0:44:26.480 --> 0:44:30.280 Each experiment failed, the expendables were killed and their bodies burned. 0:44:32.800 --> 0:44:36.160 And even what you're describing there, whenever they what are 0:44:36.200 --> 0:44:38.640 effects they got, it seems like it's just plain old 0:44:38.760 --> 0:44:43.680 subjecting them to extreme discomfort, using the stimulants and the 0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:46.840 presents or whatever to like get their body racing and 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:49.880 then slowing it down. Like that's just that's just putting 0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:52.680 them through pain. Yes, you can just hit them with 0:44:52.719 --> 0:44:54.759 a stick and do the same thing, like like all 0:44:54.800 --> 0:44:57.680 of their sophisticated talk of a wow, the magic of 0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.480 the human mind and mind control he or it still 0:45:00.520 --> 0:45:04.000 seems like it just comes back down to regular brutality 0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.520 and then the people still not cooperating, then you just 0:45:06.640 --> 0:45:09.640 shoot them. That's what's so interesting to be Jason, because 0:45:09.680 --> 0:45:12.600 they all all they're doing is using LSD to torture 0:45:12.640 --> 0:45:15.279 people in the way that like the Soviets just hit 0:45:15.360 --> 0:45:17.200 them with sticks until they do what they want. Right. 0:45:17.640 --> 0:45:21.160 But I think what's happening is Gottlieb he keeps he's 0:45:21.200 --> 0:45:25.000 taking acid. He's tripping constantly throughout this period. I think 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:29.920 he's having really powerful, like spiritual and emotional experiences on it, 0:45:30.200 --> 0:45:32.960 and so he's convinced that like there's something more going 0:45:33.040 --> 0:45:36.120 on with this particular substance, and thus there must be 0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:38.719 a way to like turn it into a tool for 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:41.000 this purpose. And one of the things I find most 0:45:41.000 --> 0:45:44.359 interesting about him is he's having. He's this educated man, 0:45:44.480 --> 0:45:48.319 he's this thoughtful guy who studies religion and spirituality, and 0:45:48.360 --> 0:45:52.839 he that he's having like experimenting on expanding his consciousness 0:45:52.840 --> 0:45:56.320 with hallucinogens, and then when he actually uses them on people, 0:45:57.000 --> 0:45:59.640 it's the same way you'd use like a fucking razor 0:45:59.719 --> 0:46:02.560 blade on a person you have tied up or whatever. 0:46:02.719 --> 0:46:06.359 Like there's not he's not being subtled. There's no like 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:09.960 artifice to it. It's just cruelty. And it seems like 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:12.360 they were so eager to get some kind of a 0:46:12.480 --> 0:46:16.360 result that they're just the way you describe. It's like 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:18.439 there was no art to what they were doing. It's 0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:23.399 just the same old I don't know, it's like this 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:25.200 is a part of what I found interesting about this, 0:46:25.239 --> 0:46:28.759 I said in the first episode is separating the reality 0:46:28.840 --> 0:46:32.200 from like the conspiracy stuff, because the conspiracy stuff always 0:46:33.120 --> 0:46:36.920 the differences between what they thought this could do and 0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:40.280 what it actually did. That's the difference between the conspiracy theories. 0:46:40.360 --> 0:46:44.320 And because in the world of conspiracy Manchurian candidates absolutely exist, 0:46:45.040 --> 0:46:48.320 whereas the reality as they wanted that, there's no doubt 0:46:48.520 --> 0:46:52.400 they wanted that outcome. It just they couldn't do it, 0:46:52.480 --> 0:46:55.799 and the actual reality on the ground is so much 0:46:55.840 --> 0:47:01.879 more disorganized and stupid and just thuggish than what than 0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.960 the the supervillains you imagine. It's almost like you imagine 0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:08.200 a more sophisticated type of when in reality, like a 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:10.239 lot of it is just bureaucrats trying to get more 0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:13.399 funding to their thing. Um, I don't die. I do 0:47:13.440 --> 0:47:15.080 not doubt that some of the people at this point 0:47:15.160 --> 0:47:17.560 knew it didn't work or had lost faith in it. 0:47:17.600 --> 0:47:19.320 But it's like, well, this is where all the funding 0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:21.640 is going, and you've got to put food on the table, 0:47:22.160 --> 0:47:25.399 and I don't care about the people were killing, so like, yeah, 0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:28.759 let's keep doing it. And yeah, so these experiments got 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:31.399 leave travels around Europe and Asia to just we don't 0:47:31.440 --> 0:47:33.719 know how many black sites. We don't know how many 0:47:33.800 --> 0:47:38.040 people he doses with LSD and then killed certainly hundreds, 0:47:38.520 --> 0:47:41.480 um potentially over the lifetime of the c I A 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:44.799 LSD experiments significantly more than that. But we really have 0:47:44.920 --> 0:47:47.759 no idea. We do know that so many people were 0:47:47.800 --> 0:47:50.200 being killed at these sites that it created a body 0:47:50.239 --> 0:47:53.520 disposal problem, even at the black sites that had been 0:47:53.560 --> 0:47:56.880 built as death camps. Stephen Kinzer quotes from an American 0:47:56.920 --> 0:48:00.040 translator at one of these places, camp King, which I 0:48:00.040 --> 0:48:03.080 believe is in Germany. Um. And she writes this home 0:48:03.120 --> 0:48:06.000 in a letter in nineteen fifty two, arrived back in 0:48:06.080 --> 0:48:09.200 Frankfurt from Paris son morning and time to spend all 0:48:09.360 --> 0:48:12.439 day at the Oberseel swimming pool, acquiring a nice tan. 0:48:12.800 --> 0:48:14.640 They dragged a dead man out of the pool at 0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:17.759 tin Am, like this is the pool that they have 0:48:17.880 --> 0:48:21.240 at like the facility, and there's like, yeah, the corpses 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:24.680 are just kind of like showing up places, um, because 0:48:24.680 --> 0:48:28.560 they're they're just creating so many of them. Gottlieb seems 0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:30.920 to have I don't know, I don't I don't really, 0:48:31.520 --> 0:48:33.720 he's a fascinating character. I don't really have a great 0:48:33.880 --> 0:48:36.759 concept of what's going on in his head because he's 0:48:36.800 --> 0:48:39.520 like every day after doing this, he goes home and 0:48:39.560 --> 0:48:42.000 he milks his goats and he hangs out with his 0:48:42.040 --> 0:48:45.400 wife and kids, and he's this kind of like kindly 0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:50.319 proto hippie nerd who's just very interested in psychedelics. Um. Well, 0:48:50.360 --> 0:48:52.440 this is the thing, because when you told his story 0:48:52.520 --> 0:48:56.000 in the last episode, like his early his upbringing, there's 0:48:56.040 --> 0:48:59.080 a key part of the story that is missing because 0:48:59.160 --> 0:49:01.440 we describe why, Well, he was young, he went off 0:49:01.440 --> 0:49:03.520 to school, he married a preacher's daughter, you know, he 0:49:03.560 --> 0:49:05.560 was kind of a hippie, you know. And then and 0:49:05.600 --> 0:49:07.319 then he was asked to be a part of this 0:49:07.400 --> 0:49:10.320 program because it's like, well, he's interested in these drugs 0:49:10.360 --> 0:49:13.840 and in these chemicals. And then immediately it's like, okay, 0:49:13.880 --> 0:49:17.239 well we we invited you him to go torture this 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:21.520 guy that we were torturing with with and trying to 0:49:21.600 --> 0:49:23.399 use this It's like, well, and not, hold on, did 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.960 did he have any kind of qualms about that? The 0:49:27.040 --> 0:49:31.680 transition from normal guy who's curious about these chemicals too, 0:49:32.880 --> 0:49:35.680 being at a black site and it's clear what's going on, 0:49:35.800 --> 0:49:38.800 Like the reality of it was certainly not hidden from him, 0:49:38.840 --> 0:49:42.399 and you are torturing another human being who it may 0:49:42.400 --> 0:49:46.000 not be guilty of anything really and it's like, okay, 0:49:46.080 --> 0:49:50.400 you did he object? Was he afraid? Did he? The way? 0:49:50.600 --> 0:49:53.400 So Stephen Kinzer, who writes Poisoner in Chief, which is 0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:55.359 about Gottlieb, is the guy who I think has done 0:49:55.400 --> 0:49:58.640 the most detailed work up on Sydney as a man. 0:49:59.560 --> 0:50:02.800 His angle on it, the way he kind of explains 0:50:02.800 --> 0:50:06.319 it is that Gottlieb is is a patriot. He is 0:50:07.040 --> 0:50:09.160 very sore about the fact that he missed out on 0:50:09.280 --> 0:50:12.799 participating in World War Two, and he has been convinced 0:50:12.800 --> 0:50:16.040 by Dullus and other people in the agency that this 0:50:16.120 --> 0:50:18.400 is a life or death struggle with the Soviet Union 0:50:18.400 --> 0:50:20.600 and that only the most like they have to try this. 0:50:20.719 --> 0:50:22.719 They have to find this out. This is the most 0:50:22.760 --> 0:50:26.240 critical weapon that could possibly exist, and if the Soviets 0:50:26.239 --> 0:50:27.719 have developed it, then it could be the end of 0:50:27.760 --> 0:50:30.399 the world. Right, they could destroy the entire country if 0:50:30.400 --> 0:50:32.400 they get people in the right positions. So we have 0:50:32.520 --> 0:50:35.800 to know how to That's that's what Kinser says. Now 0:50:36.080 --> 0:50:39.640 Kinser is working from information after the fact. He doesn't 0:50:39.680 --> 0:50:43.279 know Gotlieb. I don't to an extent. The man is unknowable, right, 0:50:43.360 --> 0:50:46.439 just like everybody. I don't actually know if I think 0:50:46.560 --> 0:50:49.759 that's what's going on. If I think maybe for all 0:50:49.800 --> 0:50:53.560 of his kindly exterior Gottlieb is like a fucking serial killer, 0:50:53.840 --> 0:50:56.759 because that there's I could see that when you look 0:50:56.800 --> 0:50:58.919 at some of the stuff this guy does, I could 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:01.120 see there being an element of just sort of like 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:04.200 joy and hurting people, and maybe we're just missing it. 0:51:04.239 --> 0:51:06.360 Because he didn't talk about it to people, right, And 0:51:06.400 --> 0:51:09.280 maybe Kinzer is trying to fill in a less frightening 0:51:09.360 --> 0:51:11.320 thing than just a man who likes to hurt people 0:51:11.600 --> 0:51:13.600 and gets a job at the CIA where he gets 0:51:13.640 --> 0:51:16.080 to do it. Kind of whatever is going on in 0:51:16.200 --> 0:51:20.560 his head what he's doing is often like serial killer ship. 0:51:20.600 --> 0:51:24.120 For an example, in late nineteen fifty two, Project Artichoke 0:51:24.200 --> 0:51:26.719 researchers decided to conduct a test into whether or not 0:51:26.800 --> 0:51:31.200 people with hepatitis are more vulnerable to lsd UM they are. Apparently, 0:51:31.280 --> 0:51:33.360 it's like a thing if you have hepatitis or have 0:51:33.400 --> 0:51:36.920 had it recently, acid will can have like potentially dangerously 0:51:37.000 --> 0:51:40.880 high effect on you. Um Gottlieb has his people. He 0:51:41.200 --> 0:51:43.520 sets up the CIA, has a deal with the American 0:51:43.560 --> 0:51:46.719 Hospital in Paris, and so he has agents waiting there 0:51:46.760 --> 0:51:49.480 as patients come in for like the right person to dose. 0:51:50.160 --> 0:51:53.239 This turns out to be Stanley Glickman. Now, Glickman is 0:51:53.239 --> 0:51:56.120 an American artist. He'd won prizes for his work and 0:51:56.120 --> 0:51:58.560 had gotten to go to a fancy art academy in Paris. 0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:01.080 So he's like a young man who was just getting 0:52:01.080 --> 0:52:04.080 started in the world. He's gifted, he's gotten this like 0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.520 incredible opportunity to study in Paris. Life is going good, 0:52:07.960 --> 0:52:10.680 and then this happens. I'm gonna quote next from Kinser's 0:52:10.680 --> 0:52:15.200 book quote. His studio was nearly select, but after a 0:52:15.200 --> 0:52:18.040 while he came to prefer another, cafe Le Dome, just 0:52:18.120 --> 0:52:21.920 across the Boulevard du Montparnesse. One evening in October nineteen 0:52:22.000 --> 0:52:24.640 fifty two, he was drinking coffee there when an acquaintance 0:52:24.680 --> 0:52:28.360 appeared and invited him over to lay Select. Reluctantly, he agreed. 0:52:28.640 --> 0:52:31.040 At lay Select, the two joined a group of Americans 0:52:31.040 --> 0:52:33.360 whose conservative dress set them apart from the rest of 0:52:33.400 --> 0:52:36.920 the crowd. Talk turned to politics and grew heated. Glickmant 0:52:37.040 --> 0:52:39.040 rose to leave, but one of the men insisted on 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:41.120 buying him a last drink to show there were no 0:52:41.239 --> 0:52:44.480 hard feelings. Glickman said he'd have a glass of chartrouss 0:52:44.480 --> 0:52:47.160 an herbal liqueur. Rather than call the waiter. The man 0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:50.040 walked to the bar, ordered the chartrous himself, and carried 0:52:50.040 --> 0:52:52.400 it back to their table. He walked with a limp, 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:55.439 Glickman later recalled the next few minutes were the last 0:52:55.480 --> 0:52:58.600 of Glickman's productive life. After taking a few SIPs from 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:00.760 his drink. He began to feel what he later called 0:53:00.960 --> 0:53:04.399 a lengthening of distance and a distortion of perception. Soon 0:53:04.440 --> 0:53:08.120 he was hallucinating. Others at the table leaned in fascinated. 0:53:08.200 --> 0:53:11.920 One told Glickman he could perform miracles. Finally, overwhelmed by 0:53:11.920 --> 0:53:14.400 panic and fearing that he had been poisoned, he jumped 0:53:14.480 --> 0:53:19.279 up and fled. And for Glickman, the hallucinations don't stop right, 0:53:19.360 --> 0:53:22.360 he loses his mind. He goes running into the street. 0:53:22.760 --> 0:53:25.400 He's there for hours. He gets taken by an ambulance, 0:53:25.400 --> 0:53:28.760 eventually back to the American hospital who has this secret 0:53:28.760 --> 0:53:32.520 working relationship with the CIA. And at the American hospitals, 0:53:32.520 --> 0:53:35.399 he gets taken in hallucinating and freaking out. They dose 0:53:35.480 --> 0:53:38.520 him with sedatives. They electrocute him repeatedly, like they give 0:53:38.600 --> 0:53:42.160 him electroshock therapy dozens and dozens of times, and they 0:53:42.200 --> 0:53:46.160 dose him with more LSD. They discharge him eventually, but 0:53:46.239 --> 0:53:49.240 he never recovers like because he like at no point 0:53:49.280 --> 0:53:52.600 in his life does he recover. He eventually gets like 0:53:52.680 --> 0:53:55.080 taken back home and he spends the rest of his 0:53:55.200 --> 0:53:58.200 days like hiding alone in an apartment owned by his parents. 0:53:58.440 --> 0:54:01.240 He can only be social like with dogs. He can't 0:54:01.239 --> 0:54:03.879 really be around people ever. Again, he's in a seat, 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:06.040 He's got a girlfriend, they're about to get married. He 0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:09.239 leaves her, and he never paints or read books or 0:54:09.280 --> 0:54:12.520 has reads books or has a romantic relationship. Again, like 0:54:12.640 --> 0:54:16.520 his mind is destroyed by this, Like he is ended 0:54:16.560 --> 0:54:19.960 as a human being, is effectively because of what gets 0:54:19.960 --> 0:54:22.120 done to him. And kind of based on the reports, 0:54:22.160 --> 0:54:25.320 it's probably Gottlieb who puts the fucking acid in his chartreuse. 0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:30.359 And the thing is, we're probably going to get into it, 0:54:30.440 --> 0:54:34.520 Like do they regard this as a result in their experiment, 0:54:34.600 --> 0:54:36.880 Like see, this is proof that you can Yeah, because 0:54:36.920 --> 0:54:40.080 all it proves is that if you do enough damage 0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:43.600 to somebody's brain, you can ruin their wife. Like again, 0:54:43.960 --> 0:54:47.120 if you if you people, yeah you bashed them in 0:54:47.120 --> 0:54:49.040 the head with a baseball bat, you can also prove 0:54:49.120 --> 0:54:51.120 this like oh yeah, this guy never worked another day 0:54:51.120 --> 0:54:53.480 in his life. But it works. It's like you haven't 0:54:53.520 --> 0:54:59.320 discovered anything. You've just discovered that if you treat someone horrible, 0:54:59.440 --> 0:55:03.600 you can you can permanently mess them up. Yeah. I 0:55:03.640 --> 0:55:06.280 think the thing they take out of this is that like, oh, yes, 0:55:06.320 --> 0:55:09.799 people who have hepatitis are more vulnerable to LSD, but 0:55:09.880 --> 0:55:12.400 also like, well, but you also like in terms of 0:55:12.440 --> 0:55:14.920 like it being a bad study, well, you also like 0:55:15.080 --> 0:55:18.719 forced him into like a hospital room and electrocuted him 0:55:18.880 --> 0:55:21.640 and sedated him and gave him more acid, So you 0:55:21.680 --> 0:55:24.480 don't actually know how much of his reaction was due 0:55:24.480 --> 0:55:26.799 to the LSD and the hepatitis, how much of it 0:55:26.840 --> 0:55:28.480 was due to the electro shock, how much of it 0:55:28.520 --> 0:55:31.040 was due to the sedative. Like you've ruined your own 0:55:31.120 --> 0:55:35.000 experimental study by conducting it so shodily, Like just as 0:55:35.280 --> 0:55:37.399 if you're if you were a soulless monster who thinks 0:55:37.440 --> 0:55:39.759 it's okay to test this on people, and you care 0:55:39.800 --> 0:55:43.560 about the science deeply, you still wouldn't do it this way. 0:55:43.760 --> 0:55:46.200 Like maybe you'd kidnaped this guy and give him acid 0:55:46.239 --> 0:55:47.959 and see what would happen, but you wouldn't just start 0:55:48.000 --> 0:55:51.120 adding random shit. It's kind of similar to people that 0:55:51.200 --> 0:55:54.000 kind of have this really high idea of what the 0:55:54.080 --> 0:55:56.719 Nazi scientists accomplished because like, well they didn't have to 0:55:56.760 --> 0:55:59.440 worry about ethics to had all these these human subjects. 0:56:00.000 --> 0:56:05.279 How much of their science was just pure trash. It's yeah, 0:56:05.360 --> 0:56:08.120 their methods, everything about how their record results like you 0:56:08.160 --> 0:56:10.360 look at how sloppy this is in terms of getting 0:56:10.360 --> 0:56:13.759 any kind of a result. There's no control group, Like 0:56:13.920 --> 0:56:18.640 everything about it is these people just they're bad scientists, 0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:20.319 Like this is not the way you find out what 0:56:20.360 --> 0:56:23.360 they're trying to find out. And that's that's the degree 0:56:23.640 --> 0:56:26.359 in terms of like what's going on with Gottlieb. That's 0:56:26.360 --> 0:56:27.960 the part of me that's like maybe he is just 0:56:28.080 --> 0:56:31.200 kind of like a serial killer, Like I don't know, 0:56:31.280 --> 0:56:33.800 maybe that's maybe he just this is what he does 0:56:33.960 --> 0:56:36.879 to I don't get off in whatever way, and then 0:56:36.880 --> 0:56:38.840 he's able to go home and be this like normal 0:56:38.920 --> 0:56:42.200 hippie dad. But he's just got this like deep cruelty 0:56:42.280 --> 0:56:44.520 in him that he needs to in the same way 0:56:44.520 --> 0:56:46.279 that like you have all these people who were like 0:56:46.360 --> 0:56:49.080 murdering folks their entire lives and they're married and they 0:56:49.080 --> 0:56:52.640 have kids and stuff like we have. There are examples 0:56:52.680 --> 0:56:54.560 like this. There's like John Wayne Gacy, right, Gaycy I 0:56:54.600 --> 0:56:57.480 think is one of the ones who had like a family. Um, 0:56:57.640 --> 0:56:59.920 maybe I'm wrong, but there's there's like examples of serial 0:57:00.080 --> 0:57:04.719 killers everybody, like they're fairly prominent where there it's like, well, 0:57:04.760 --> 0:57:06.680 he was just a normal man. We all thought he 0:57:06.760 --> 0:57:08.400 was just this you know, he had a wife and 0:57:08.400 --> 0:57:10.160 he had kids, and everyone just assumed he was a 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:13.960 member of the community. Um, maybe that's what got leave 0:57:14.120 --> 0:57:18.440 is you know, that's the actually the less cynical interpretation, 0:57:19.480 --> 0:57:23.000 because the more cynical interpretation, is it, any is a 0:57:23.040 --> 0:57:25.520 lot of people if you gave them a job and 0:57:25.560 --> 0:57:27.680 it's like your boss just tells you to do it, 0:57:27.920 --> 0:57:29.680 you just do it because your boss told you to 0:57:29.720 --> 0:57:33.000 do it, and it's otherwise I'll get fired, and this 0:57:33.080 --> 0:57:35.960 is my career on the line, and so that if that, 0:57:36.200 --> 0:57:38.720 you know that that's part of the lesson the Holocaust, 0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:41.360 is it. It didn't take it didn't take millions of 0:57:41.400 --> 0:57:43.880 serial killers. It just took a lot of bureaucrats who 0:57:43.960 --> 0:57:46.200 kind of like, what else am I gonna do? It's 0:57:46.320 --> 0:57:50.120 you know, they is my job. This is what I 0:57:50.200 --> 0:57:52.439 was told to guard this building and not let anybody out, 0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:54.600 Like that's that that was my job? What you want 0:57:54.640 --> 0:57:57.800 me to do? Definitely, I mean obviously, like that's most 0:57:57.880 --> 0:58:00.280 of the CIA, right, that's most of the m k 0:58:00.440 --> 0:58:04.840 Ultra people. Gottlieb there is that like that particular story 0:58:04.840 --> 0:58:07.120 where he's just like he's looking at a bar for 0:58:07.160 --> 0:58:10.120 a young kid. He can drug and he does it himself. 0:58:10.160 --> 0:58:13.440 That's the thing that like makes me, I don't know, 0:58:13.520 --> 0:58:17.520 I know we're getting into more satisfying personal curiosity, but no. 0:58:17.600 --> 0:58:20.760 But I think that's what makes a story interesting because again, 0:58:21.080 --> 0:58:26.919 the the conspiracy stuff makes certain assumptions about the type 0:58:26.920 --> 0:58:29.480 of people that work at the CIA, and I think 0:58:29.520 --> 0:58:31.720 it almost imagines him as a different kind of human 0:58:31.760 --> 0:58:35.800 being versus so much of this is people just screwing 0:58:35.800 --> 0:58:38.800 around like this here, like just dosing this the stranger 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:41.520 to see what happens like this is just this is 0:58:41.560 --> 0:58:43.760 reaching stage where you're just screwing around, like there's it's 0:58:43.800 --> 0:58:46.960 just your there's not enough oversight. There's nobody checking your method, 0:58:47.000 --> 0:58:49.640 there's nobody making your report every single thing you do 0:58:50.080 --> 0:58:54.040 because it's all secrets. So you know, um yeah, and 0:58:54.080 --> 0:58:56.040 I hate that it as mundane as that it's like, well, 0:58:56.080 --> 0:58:58.320 he wasn't reporting to anybody, so it's like, well why 0:58:58.320 --> 0:59:00.280 not see what happens? You know, I think you you 0:59:00.320 --> 0:59:03.040 get so immersed in this stuff where anything can become 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:07.520 normal if that's just like your day to day job. Yeah, 0:59:07.560 --> 0:59:11.560 I mean that is it's to an extent and unknowable question. 0:59:11.760 --> 0:59:14.680 But yeah, I but I don't know. Well, well, we'll 0:59:14.720 --> 0:59:18.320 come back around to this as we get through, um 0:59:18.360 --> 0:59:20.320 like more of this story and you get to know 0:59:20.400 --> 0:59:23.400 a little bit more about Sydney Gottlieb. But kind of 0:59:23.520 --> 0:59:26.720 right around this time, as Gottlieb is dosing Glickman and 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:30.320 destroying his life, he convinces his boss, Alan Dullis to 0:59:30.480 --> 0:59:33.480 merge all the different government teams working on truth serum 0:59:33.520 --> 0:59:36.560 and mind control research together. Now, most of what this 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:39.120 means is they're bringing the Army Chemical Corps, who is 0:59:39.160 --> 0:59:42.360 still doing separate research into stuff like this, and the 0:59:42.440 --> 0:59:46.240 CIA teams under one roof. In November of nineteen fifty two, 0:59:46.280 --> 0:59:50.040 a month after Gottlieb drugs Stanley Glickman, Dwight D. Eisenhower 0:59:50.120 --> 0:59:53.080 wins the presidency. In a nineteen fifty three he makes 0:59:53.120 --> 0:59:57.320 Alan Dullis the new head of the CIA. So, now 0:59:57.920 --> 0:59:59.600 this is the kind of ship Sydney has been able 0:59:59.640 --> 1:00:01.680 to get up too, with his patron being the number 1:00:01.680 --> 1:00:04.680 two man at the CIA. Now is buddies running things, 1:00:04.800 --> 1:00:07.200 and stuff's gonna go off the rails. But you know 1:00:07.240 --> 1:00:12.720 what else goes off the rails? Jason capitalism, I don't. 1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:15.800 I mean, yes at some point, um, but but but 1:00:15.920 --> 1:00:20.160 probably not while we're all alive. Um. So sit back 1:00:20.320 --> 1:00:25.400 and enjoy capitalism and don't think about how it ties 1:00:25.440 --> 1:00:28.880 into what these guys were defending by dosing random people 1:00:29.160 --> 1:00:41.760 in Paris. Ah, we're back, okay. So Jason Alan Dullis 1:00:42.000 --> 1:00:45.360 is now running the CIA. Dwight D. Eisenhower is the president. 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:49.360 John Foster Dulas is the Secretary of State, and the 1:00:49.440 --> 1:00:52.120 agency gets given the go ahead to open more black 1:00:52.200 --> 1:00:55.160 sites around the world. At this point, Gottlieb is also 1:00:55.240 --> 1:00:57.640 able to expand the scope of his mind control research, 1:00:57.680 --> 1:00:59.920 and for the first time, he brings an outside science 1:00:59.880 --> 1:01:04.480 to conduct torture experiments. One of these scientists is Paul 1:01:04.640 --> 1:01:08.840 Hook of the New York Psychiatric Institute. Gottlieb wanted him 1:01:08.840 --> 1:01:11.280 to inject a patient with mescalin to see what would happen. 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:15.360 Hawk chose Harold Blower. Now. Blower was depressed after a 1:01:15.360 --> 1:01:17.760 divorce and he had gone to Hawk for help. Hawk 1:01:17.880 --> 1:01:21.520 is a psychiatrist. Blower is a sad man who in 1:01:21.560 --> 1:01:23.520 the fifties is like, you know what, I'm gonna get 1:01:23.560 --> 1:01:26.160 over the macho bullshit that like my culture teaches me 1:01:26.200 --> 1:01:28.080 about seeking help, and I'm going to go to a 1:01:28.120 --> 1:01:31.800 psychiatrist to deal with my divorce. Um. And as a 1:01:31.840 --> 1:01:36.320 reward for being that self aware and responsible and taking 1:01:36.360 --> 1:01:39.920 control of his mental health, Hawk's assistant and secretly injects 1:01:39.920 --> 1:01:44.040 Blower with concentrated mescalin, telling him it's depression medicine. He 1:01:44.120 --> 1:01:46.800 does this five more times over the course of several weeks, 1:01:46.840 --> 1:01:50.840 and and Blower complains, right, he's he's hallucinating. He's having 1:01:51.000 --> 1:01:55.240 nightmarish hallucinations every time they give this depression treatment to him. 1:01:55.520 --> 1:01:57.800 And he's like, I want to stop. This is not 1:01:58.000 --> 1:02:02.080 helping me being sad about my wife leaving. Um, my 1:02:02.160 --> 1:02:06.480 depression has not been cured by these random, horrible hallucinations. Um, 1:02:06.560 --> 1:02:09.640 can we please stop? And Hawk basically tells him, you 1:02:09.680 --> 1:02:12.160 can't quit the treatment midstream. You have to finish the 1:02:12.160 --> 1:02:14.720 course of medications otherwise it will be really bad for you. 1:02:14.800 --> 1:02:17.880 So let's just let's just keep taking this ship. In 1:02:18.000 --> 1:02:21.400 January of nineteen fifty three, just days after Dwight Eisenhower 1:02:21.440 --> 1:02:24.520 is sworn in, Hawk was injected with a dose fourteen 1:02:24.640 --> 1:02:27.720 times higher than what he'd been given previously. He began 1:02:27.760 --> 1:02:29.920 to have seizures. He had a heart attack, and he 1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:33.640 was pronounced dead about three hours after the injection. Hawk 1:02:33.840 --> 1:02:36.320 is one of two Americans who are known to have 1:02:36.400 --> 1:02:39.600 died from the n kal dr experiments. Right, Um, as 1:02:39.640 --> 1:02:42.080 we'll get too later. Most of the there's a lot 1:02:42.120 --> 1:02:45.360 of data about this that's lost. But howk is one 1:02:45.400 --> 1:02:47.440 of the two guys that we know for certain was 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:51.360 killed as a result of these experiments. Um one of 1:02:51.440 --> 1:02:54.480 doctor or not Hook Blower, one of doctor Hawk's medical 1:02:54.520 --> 1:02:57.880 assistants who had been giving Blower them. Escalin later said, quote, 1:02:58.160 --> 1:03:00.520 we didn't know if it was dog piss or what 1:03:00.560 --> 1:03:05.560 it was that we were giving him. So maybe these 1:03:05.600 --> 1:03:08.680 people were not Maybe there's some medical ethics problems here too, 1:03:10.520 --> 1:03:16.360 Jesus Christ. Yeah, And so okay, if you had to 1:03:16.600 --> 1:03:21.200 put money on all right, there's two people we know died. 1:03:21.520 --> 1:03:25.680 If you just had to put down a bet as 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:28.440 to whether or not there were at least one or 1:03:28.480 --> 1:03:30.919 two more people that we maybe don't know about, would 1:03:30.920 --> 1:03:35.360 you take that bet or would you? Yeah? I mean, 1:03:35.720 --> 1:03:38.280 I don't want to be irresponsible here and the information 1:03:38.280 --> 1:03:42.800 out there, but it just seems it feels implausible. Yeah, 1:03:43.200 --> 1:03:46.040 seeing how fast and loose they were playing. I don't know. 1:03:46.360 --> 1:03:50.000 We will never know because they destroy much of the evidence. 1:03:50.120 --> 1:03:53.640 Well we'll we'll explain that later. But like, I don't 1:03:53.680 --> 1:03:55.840 I don't see how the the death toll. And we're 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:58.240 talking obviously they've been killing people for a long time. 1:03:58.280 --> 1:04:02.000 But those people are yeah, Americans who die kind of 1:04:02.080 --> 1:04:05.600 accidentally as a result of experiments. I would be shocked 1:04:06.000 --> 1:04:08.960 if it weren't dozens, and it might be more like 1:04:09.120 --> 1:04:10.920 but we'll but we'll never know, right, And so it's 1:04:10.920 --> 1:04:12.440 sometimes it's hard to tell because like a lot of 1:04:12.440 --> 1:04:15.400 people have lifelong problems as a result of this and 1:04:15.440 --> 1:04:19.040 then eventually die as the result of like and maybe like, 1:04:19.200 --> 1:04:21.560 how does the LSD impact the fact that they die 1:04:22.040 --> 1:04:23.840 very young of a heart disease or does it make 1:04:23.880 --> 1:04:27.160 them take other substances that contribute to their right? This 1:04:27.240 --> 1:04:30.120 is all messier. It's usually not as clear as it 1:04:30.200 --> 1:04:32.640 is with blour, where he just gets injected with a 1:04:32.680 --> 1:04:37.040 massive dose of something and has a heart attack. Um, 1:04:37.080 --> 1:04:41.000 but yeah, it's it's heart. It's impossible to say exactly, 1:04:41.040 --> 1:04:44.760 but my my, if I'm taking that, bet, I feel 1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:49.080 pretty good about my adds. Um, now are they calling? 1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:52.480 Is this still operating under Artichoke? Or have they started 1:04:52.480 --> 1:04:55.200 calling it m kale. It's it's just about to be 1:04:55.400 --> 1:04:59.320 m kale. So in April of nineteen fifty three, again, 1:04:59.360 --> 1:05:01.440 everything we've talked about has happened over about a four 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:03.760 year period, right, this is not a long span of 1:05:03.800 --> 1:05:06.880 time that's past. In April of nineteen fifty three, Alan 1:05:06.960 --> 1:05:09.280 Dulas gives that big speech at Princeton where he says 1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:11.640 that communist spies are about to play the American mind 1:05:11.680 --> 1:05:15.400 like a phonograph. A few days later, on April nineteen 1:05:15.440 --> 1:05:19.400 fifty three, he like officially bundles up all of the 1:05:19.440 --> 1:05:22.280 research the US government is going doing into mind control, 1:05:22.560 --> 1:05:26.440 and he called launches mk Ultra at Gottlieb's insistence as 1:05:26.480 --> 1:05:30.680 the final iteration of the secret mind control research project. Now, 1:05:30.800 --> 1:05:33.360 under the terms of the agreement that Gottlieb had made 1:05:33.400 --> 1:05:36.760 with Dullus, mk Ultra is granted six percent of the 1:05:36.920 --> 1:05:41.320 entire CIA operating budget. There are no no requirements for 1:05:41.360 --> 1:05:45.320 accounting and no oversight. Alan Dulls is not told what 1:05:45.360 --> 1:05:48.680 they're doing. The President of the United States does not 1:05:48.800 --> 1:05:52.440 know about this program in anything but the broadest terms. 1:05:52.480 --> 1:05:54.240 Like every now and then someone will be like, you know, 1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:57.240 we're we're continuing our work on like mind control research 1:05:57.280 --> 1:06:00.800 because the Soviets have something right, but like um, no 1:06:00.840 --> 1:06:03.640 one is being looped in. Gottlieb has six percent of 1:06:03.680 --> 1:06:07.400 the CIA budget and zero oversight. And again we can 1:06:07.440 --> 1:06:12.560 criticize it in you know, in hindsight, but hindsight at 1:06:12.560 --> 1:06:15.600 the time, they had no way of knowing that I 1:06:15.680 --> 1:06:18.919 could turn into a carnival of horror. Yeah, so many 1:06:19.000 --> 1:06:21.720 things go well when you give a man effectively a 1:06:21.760 --> 1:06:25.040 license to kill in drug whoever he wants, millions of 1:06:25.080 --> 1:06:28.200 dollars and say, no one's watching him? Who himself is 1:06:28.280 --> 1:06:31.000 tripping balls much of the day? Who is? Who is? Yeah, 1:06:31.040 --> 1:06:34.760 it must be said, is hallucinating an unknown but significant 1:06:34.760 --> 1:06:38.640 percentage of the time. Now, maybe this is not something 1:06:38.680 --> 1:06:41.640 that made into the records. Did they know that mk 1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:46.680 Ultra was an awesome name for a project. Yes, it 1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:50.560 was randomly generated. They actually kind of break their own 1:06:50.640 --> 1:06:53.400 rules to call it him k Ultra. So with cryptonym, 1:06:53.400 --> 1:06:55.680 the MK part is normal, right, that just means it's 1:06:55.680 --> 1:06:59.680 part of the technical division. The second part of the name, 1:06:59.800 --> 1:07:02.000 like we had M k Naomi earlier, it's supposed to 1:07:02.040 --> 1:07:05.600 be completely random because if somebody, if if some spy 1:07:05.640 --> 1:07:08.680 like leaks a document to the Soviets that mentions MK ultra. 1:07:09.040 --> 1:07:10.440 You don't want anyone to be able to tell what 1:07:10.480 --> 1:07:13.960 it is, Gottly make sure it's called ultra because it's 1:07:14.000 --> 1:07:17.200 the most secret thing in the US government, right, Like 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:19.200 that's why he calls it that because he and I 1:07:19.280 --> 1:07:21.360 think it's just because he thinks it's cool that that's 1:07:21.400 --> 1:07:24.240 his project. Like the most secret thing anyone's doing is 1:07:24.280 --> 1:07:26.960 his project, and so it's it's ultra. Yeah. If you 1:07:27.040 --> 1:07:30.040 sneak into an office at the Pentagon or somewhere and 1:07:30.080 --> 1:07:33.240 you see a folder called Project Artichoke, you're probably not 1:07:33.320 --> 1:07:36.080 even going to open it, right If you stumble across 1:07:36.080 --> 1:07:40.560 a big fat red folder marked MK ultra, Oh yeah, absolutely, 1:07:40.640 --> 1:07:43.960 you're stealing that thing. It's like, this is either aliens 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:47.680 or to doomsday weapon, Like you would almost be disappointed 1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:51.000 at what it actually is. Yeah, it's but it's certainly 1:07:51.080 --> 1:07:53.520 like it is actually a pretty bad cryptonym because it 1:07:53.560 --> 1:07:55.600 immediately you're like, well, this has to be something pretty 1:07:55.640 --> 1:08:01.000 fucking serious, right Yeah. Um, So Adney Gottlieb gets his 1:08:01.000 --> 1:08:03.600 blank check and his license to do whatever, and over 1:08:03.640 --> 1:08:05.960 the next decade he makes full use of the resources 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:08.439 that have been made available to him under mk ULTRA, 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:11.600 and increasing share of the workload gets farmed out to 1:08:11.680 --> 1:08:15.800 independent scientists. One of these is Dr Ewen Cameron, a 1:08:15.800 --> 1:08:20.080 former head of the American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations as 1:08:20.080 --> 1:08:23.800 well as the World Psychiatric Association. Cameron had been born 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:26.439 in Scotland, but he worked mostly in Canada. He was 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:29.679 one of the top couple of psychiatrists on the planet 1:08:29.720 --> 1:08:32.679 in the mid nineteen fifties. Again, he is the former 1:08:32.680 --> 1:08:36.439 head of the American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations. He is like, 1:08:37.960 --> 1:08:40.759 you don't get much more prestigious than that in this period. 1:08:41.080 --> 1:08:42.680 And I want to quote now to talk about what 1:08:42.720 --> 1:08:44.639 this motherfucker did. I want to quote from a write 1:08:44.680 --> 1:08:50.400 up from the CBCS long form series Brainwashed. Quote. Three 1:08:50.479 --> 1:08:53.160 years after the CIA launched mk ultra IF, they approached 1:08:53.200 --> 1:08:56.400 Cameron through the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, 1:08:56.520 --> 1:08:59.280 a research foundation and one of their front organizations through 1:08:59.280 --> 1:09:01.840 which they funneled money. They encouraged him to apply for 1:09:01.880 --> 1:09:04.759 a grant, which he did and quickly received. From January 1:09:04.880 --> 1:09:07.799 nineteen fifty seven to September of nineteen sixty, the CIA 1:09:07.920 --> 1:09:11.800 gave Cameron sixty dollars US equivalent to slightly more than 1:09:11.840 --> 1:09:15.880 half a million today. Now, in nineteen fifty five, a 1:09:15.880 --> 1:09:18.680 Canadian woman named Esther Schreier marries the love of her 1:09:18.720 --> 1:09:21.080 life after a blind date. The two of them have 1:09:21.120 --> 1:09:23.400 a child three years later, but the baby dies of 1:09:23.439 --> 1:09:27.560 a staff infection a three weeks old. Esther is obviously 1:09:27.680 --> 1:09:30.280 very sad about this, and she blames herself for the death. 1:09:30.640 --> 1:09:32.559 Her life up to this point has been pretty difficult. 1:09:32.560 --> 1:09:34.479 Her father had died when she was young, then her 1:09:34.520 --> 1:09:36.960 mother had died like right after him. She and her 1:09:37.000 --> 1:09:38.519 brother has been a lot of time in foster home. 1:09:38.560 --> 1:09:40.040 So this is a woman with a lot of trauma. 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:42.920 And when she gets pregnant two years later, she finds 1:09:42.920 --> 1:09:46.080 herself kind of so consumed with anxiety that she's worried 1:09:46.120 --> 1:09:48.559 that it's going to harm the baby's health. So Esther 1:09:48.640 --> 1:09:51.040 and her husband do the responsible thing. They go to 1:09:51.160 --> 1:09:53.880 the best psychiatrists that they can afford to try to 1:09:53.920 --> 1:09:57.080 get help. And the psychiatrists they go to is Dr 1:09:57.120 --> 1:10:00.120 Ewan Cameron. Uh. They had been told that he is 1:10:00.200 --> 1:10:03.280 quote godlike when it came to treating issues of anxiety 1:10:03.320 --> 1:10:05.880 and depression. And I'm going to continue from quoting from 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:09.400 that CBC right up now. Esther Schreier entered the hospital 1:10:09.479 --> 1:10:12.320 in February nineteen sixty to receive what her family thought 1:10:12.360 --> 1:10:14.639 was the best care money could buy, but her medical 1:10:14.680 --> 1:10:16.840 notes showed disregard for her well being and that of 1:10:16.880 --> 1:10:19.679 her unborn child right from the start. She spent thirty 1:10:19.760 --> 1:10:21.760 days in what was called the sleep room, a place 1:10:21.760 --> 1:10:24.360 where patients were put in a drug induced coma and 1:10:24.479 --> 1:10:27.479 roused only for three feedings in bathroom breaks per day. 1:10:27.600 --> 1:10:30.320 She lost thirteen pounds that month. Her records showed that 1:10:30.360 --> 1:10:32.880 she couldn't stand up because she was too weak. She 1:10:32.960 --> 1:10:36.960 also underwent a treatment called deep patterning. Cameron believed that 1:10:37.040 --> 1:10:40.439 breaking down patients minds to a childlike state through drugs 1:10:40.439 --> 1:10:43.120 and electroshock therapy would allow him to work from a 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:46.479 clean slate, whereby he could then reprogram the patients. Part 1:10:46.479 --> 1:10:49.960 of his reprogramming regime would involve what he dubbed psychic driving, 1:10:50.200 --> 1:10:52.880 which meant playing recorded messages to the patients for up 1:10:52.880 --> 1:10:55.719 to twenty hours a day, whether they were asleep or awake. 1:10:56.120 --> 1:10:59.280 These voices were played through headphones, helmets, or speakers, sometimes 1:10:59.280 --> 1:11:02.479 installed right inside a patient's pillow. Records show that some 1:11:02.520 --> 1:11:09.000 patients would hear these messages up to half a million times. Um, okay, 1:11:09.600 --> 1:11:13.000 very very briefly, just yeah, got a question there, Jason. 1:11:15.040 --> 1:11:17.120 People who follow me on social media and follow me 1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:19.600 on my many many podcast appearances know that I have 1:11:19.880 --> 1:11:22.760 this drum beat that I come back to, which is 1:11:22.800 --> 1:11:25.800 how much the past sucked. And I get that there 1:11:25.800 --> 1:11:28.240 are lots of things about the modern world that are terrible, 1:11:28.479 --> 1:11:31.879 and that it feels like things going in the wrong direction. 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:37.360 The world's becoming just everything is anxiety and stress. Um, 1:11:38.040 --> 1:11:42.040 you know, in inequality, all of the problems. You did 1:11:42.040 --> 1:11:45.679 not want to live in the nineteen fifties, a fucking 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:49.160 lutly not and whatever you've seen where it's like, well, 1:11:49.200 --> 1:11:52.479 you know, back my my dad or my grandpa when 1:11:52.479 --> 1:11:55.760 he got married, they on just one income, you know, 1:11:55.800 --> 1:11:57.840 at a coal mind they were able to afford a 1:11:57.880 --> 1:12:00.439 house in a car and his wife could stay home 1:12:00.439 --> 1:12:03.759 and take care of the kids. What happened to that? 1:12:03.760 --> 1:12:07.720 That's that's perfectly valid. Like everything you're saying there, you 1:12:07.720 --> 1:12:10.280 didn't want to live in the nineteen anyone out there 1:12:10.320 --> 1:12:12.479 listening to this, who is getting any kind of mental 1:12:12.520 --> 1:12:15.719 health care? Like in many many ways. We are still 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:19.080 in the dark ages of mental health care. Like anybody 1:12:19.080 --> 1:12:22.800 who's taken any depressants or anti anxiety medication knows how 1:12:23.280 --> 1:12:26.479 the effectiveness is all over the map. The dosage is 1:12:26.520 --> 1:12:29.360 getting it right, the withdrawals are terrible, side effects are terrible. 1:12:29.600 --> 1:12:34.080 Like our treatments are not great now. The treatments, God, 1:12:34.600 --> 1:12:39.040 the treatments back then, they were just experimenting with different 1:12:39.080 --> 1:12:44.599 ways to torture people. And like everything he described, if 1:12:44.640 --> 1:12:49.280 you were trying to inflict the worst like mental suffering 1:12:49.320 --> 1:12:51.720 on somebody, these are all the things you would come 1:12:51.760 --> 1:12:55.559 up with. It's sadistic, it's it's it's bug fuck, and 1:12:55.720 --> 1:12:58.840 it's made worse by like there's stuff going on that's 1:12:58.880 --> 1:13:02.479 like in this realm that them like potentially attempting to 1:13:02.520 --> 1:13:07.080 test treatments. Cameron isn't just trying to help her, He's 1:13:07.120 --> 1:13:11.920 also he's also trying to experiment with the destruction of 1:13:12.040 --> 1:13:16.160 human thoughts and memories. Right, He's trying to change like 1:13:16.320 --> 1:13:21.120 people's personalities through medical torture, right, Like that's part of 1:13:21.120 --> 1:13:23.400 the goal here. She doesn't know that that's what she's 1:13:23.439 --> 1:13:26.920 agreed to do, but that's what happens. And by March 1:13:26.960 --> 1:13:30.839 twelfth of nineteen sixty Esther Esther Schreier is quote considered 1:13:30.880 --> 1:13:34.920 completely depatterned. According to Cameron's medical records. The bad news 1:13:35.000 --> 1:13:37.320 is that being deep pattern means that she had forgotten 1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:40.160 the face, name, and existence of her husband. She could 1:13:40.160 --> 1:13:43.080 not control her bladder or bowels, She could not speak, 1:13:43.320 --> 1:13:46.920 She had trouble even swallowing. Her son later told journalists that, 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.880 according to Esther, she could not remember how to boil water. 1:13:50.600 --> 1:13:54.040 Despite being deep patterned. The torture continued. Dr Cameron would 1:13:54.080 --> 1:13:56.160 give her four or five days of rest at a time, 1:13:56.439 --> 1:13:58.200 and then he would take her in and subject her 1:13:58.240 --> 1:14:01.680 to hundreds of electro shock treatments. These continued until the 1:14:01.760 --> 1:14:04.599 eighth month of her pregnancy. In two thousand four, Esther 1:14:04.720 --> 1:14:07.160 told BBC Scotland what it was like when she actually 1:14:07.200 --> 1:14:10.200 had her baby, completely stripped of her understanding of how 1:14:10.240 --> 1:14:13.120 to be a person. I had a new baby and 1:14:13.160 --> 1:14:14.800 I didn't know what to do with the baby. I 1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:16.720 had help a baby nurse, but she had to have 1:14:16.760 --> 1:14:18.720 a day off and she left me a book. And 1:14:18.720 --> 1:14:20.679 I'll just give you a little example from you book. 1:14:20.680 --> 1:14:22.920 From the book, when you hear the baby cry, go 1:14:23.000 --> 1:14:24.920 to the room, pick up baby, and step by step 1:14:24.960 --> 1:14:27.200 how to feed the baby. And that was very frightening, 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:29.960 Like she she had to have it explained to her, 1:14:30.040 --> 1:14:33.240 like how to feed, like that a baby needed feeding, 1:14:33.320 --> 1:14:35.479 all of this stuff like it had just And I 1:14:35.520 --> 1:14:38.280 think what's happening here is not that because she recovers 1:14:38.280 --> 1:14:42.400 eventually she it's not that he's obliterated these memories. It's 1:14:42.439 --> 1:14:45.080 that he's done so much damage to her ability to 1:14:45.160 --> 1:14:49.200 like focus and function and think by blasting her with 1:14:49.320 --> 1:14:55.519 noise basically ceaselessly. Um that she's discovered depending at all, 1:14:55.800 --> 1:14:59.200 that's all garbage nonsense. It's if you if you just 1:15:00.280 --> 1:15:03.920 relentlessly attacks someone in many different ways for a long 1:15:04.000 --> 1:15:07.639 enough period, Yeah, their whole sense of their whole function 1:15:07.680 --> 1:15:11.280 will break down. There's nothing magical and mysterious about it. 1:15:11.560 --> 1:15:14.800 If you torture somebody enough long enough, their ability to 1:15:14.880 --> 1:15:17.280 function in all sorts of ways. Like you said, she 1:15:17.320 --> 1:15:20.160 also lost a bladder control. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:25.280 ruin this person's brain temporarily through sheer harm you were 1:15:25.320 --> 1:15:28.439 doing to them. Again, you could get the same effect 1:15:28.439 --> 1:15:30.760 by bashing them in the head with a pipe. It's 1:15:30.800 --> 1:15:33.599 there's nothing like these these people think they're playing god. 1:15:33.680 --> 1:15:36.880 It's like, no, you're just brutalizing people. Yeah, and that's 1:15:37.000 --> 1:15:41.360 that's all that's happening. Um. So again, esther does recover, 1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:43.320 she does get to live a full life, unlike some 1:15:43.400 --> 1:15:46.680 of these people. She comes back to herself. Obviously, she 1:15:46.840 --> 1:15:49.280 and her son suffered trauma because he's in the womb 1:15:49.320 --> 1:15:51.040 while a lot of this is happening, Like, none of 1:15:51.040 --> 1:15:54.360 this is good for anybody. Um, and his early childhood 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:57.280 is not ideal as a result of his mom going 1:15:57.280 --> 1:15:59.519 through a lot of this stuff. Still, he and his mom, 1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:01.639 you have to say, are kind of the better case 1:16:01.680 --> 1:16:06.080 scenarios for Dr Cameron's patients. McGill University, where he taught 1:16:06.120 --> 1:16:09.479 and conducted his research, later published a Mia copple where 1:16:09.479 --> 1:16:12.519 they noted that quote. In addition to LSD, Cameron also 1:16:12.600 --> 1:16:16.120 experimented with various paralytic drugs, as well as electro convulsive 1:16:16.160 --> 1:16:19.200 therapy at thirty to forty times the normal power. His 1:16:19.320 --> 1:16:22.599 driving experiments consisted of putting subjects in a drug induced 1:16:22.600 --> 1:16:24.960 coma for weeks at a time up to three months 1:16:25.000 --> 1:16:27.479 in one case, while playing tape loops of noise or 1:16:27.520 --> 1:16:31.080 simple repetitive statements. His experiments were typically carried out on 1:16:31.120 --> 1:16:34.080 patients who had entered the institute from minor problems such 1:16:34.120 --> 1:16:37.759 as anxiety disorders and postpartum depression, many of whom suffered 1:16:37.760 --> 1:16:41.559 permanently from this action. Now I wanted to provide a 1:16:41.560 --> 1:16:45.080 little more context as to just how medieval these fucking 1:16:45.120 --> 1:16:47.599 experiments were, and so I'd like to quote from one 1:16:47.600 --> 1:16:50.040 more passage of Kinser's book here before we close out 1:16:50.080 --> 1:16:53.679 for the day. There, he or she was fed LSD 1:16:53.840 --> 1:16:56.479 and given only minimal amounts of food, water in oxygen. 1:16:56.680 --> 1:16:59.400 Cameron fitted patients with helmets equipped with ear phones into 1:16:59.400 --> 1:17:02.439 which he piped phrases or messages like my mother hates me, 1:17:02.720 --> 1:17:06.000 repeated hundreds of thousands of times. In professional papers and 1:17:06.080 --> 1:17:09.400 lab reports, Cameron reported that he had succeeded in destroying minds, 1:17:09.600 --> 1:17:11.280 but he had not found a way to replace them 1:17:11.280 --> 1:17:14.000 with new ones. After completing the treatment of one patient, 1:17:14.040 --> 1:17:16.960 he he wrote with evident pride that the shock treatment 1:17:17.000 --> 1:17:19.320 turned the then nineteen year old Honors student into a 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:22.200 woman who sucked her thumb, talked like a baby, demanded 1:17:22.240 --> 1:17:27.080 to be fed from a bottle, and urinated on the floor. Now, again, 1:17:27.560 --> 1:17:30.840 that's important. His goal is to destroy their minds. This 1:17:30.920 --> 1:17:33.519 is part one of what God lead wants, right. They 1:17:33.520 --> 1:17:37.000 want to destroy people's personalities so that they can put 1:17:37.040 --> 1:17:39.759 new ones in their place. Right. And they never figure 1:17:39.760 --> 1:17:42.000 out that second part as far as we know, but 1:17:42.080 --> 1:17:46.519 they do figure out how to destroy people for a while. Um. 1:17:46.560 --> 1:17:49.760 The Canadian government has provided no list of the experiments 1:17:49.760 --> 1:17:52.800 that Dr Cameron carried out with their approval. This is 1:17:52.840 --> 1:17:55.759 not something the CIA is doing, and the Canadian government 1:17:55.800 --> 1:18:00.639 is unaware. The Canadian government is enthusiastically a proving of this, 1:18:00.960 --> 1:18:04.439 and when the CIA stops funding Cameron, the Canadian government 1:18:04.479 --> 1:18:07.759 gives him money to continue his research. Um. So again, 1:18:08.280 --> 1:18:12.040 not just the US involved here. Nine of Cameron's patients 1:18:12.040 --> 1:18:14.400 sued the CIA in the nineteen eighties for their treatment 1:18:14.479 --> 1:18:16.599 under m k Ultra. It was settled out of court 1:18:16.600 --> 1:18:19.240 in nineteen under the condition that the agency was not 1:18:19.320 --> 1:18:23.000 accepting liability. Esther was too embarrassed to sign onto the 1:18:23.000 --> 1:18:25.280 case at that point in time, but she eventually signed 1:18:25.280 --> 1:18:29.080 on when the Canadian government in nineteen ninety four offered 1:18:29.080 --> 1:18:32.759 compensation for people who had experienced full or substantial deep patterning. 1:18:33.160 --> 1:18:36.280 Seventy four patients received hundred thousand dollar payments under the 1:18:36.280 --> 1:18:41.120 condition that the Canadian government was not admitting culpability. So 1:18:41.840 --> 1:18:45.720 even when adjusting for inflation, that is nothing, not not 1:18:45.840 --> 1:18:49.320 enough money for this. Um, you could not pay me 1:18:49.439 --> 1:18:51.280 to have this, As someone who has done quite a 1:18:51.320 --> 1:18:53.960 bit of messing with my own head on chemicals, there's nothing. 1:18:54.000 --> 1:18:55.720 There's not an amount of money you could pay to 1:18:55.760 --> 1:18:57.599 go through this. This is the worst thing I can 1:18:57.640 --> 1:19:02.360 literally imagine. Um, Like, yeah, I'd rather go to prison 1:19:02.360 --> 1:19:08.040 than absolutely. There's like there's like fucking labor camps that 1:19:08.080 --> 1:19:11.160 would be a less traumatic experience than this. At least 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:18.400 you're like a person in that right m hm. Anyway, Jason, 1:19:18.840 --> 1:19:20.920 you got to think you want to plug. How are 1:19:20.960 --> 1:19:25.280 we only halfway through this story? How bad does it get? Um? 1:19:25.320 --> 1:19:29.240 It gets a lot worse. I mean it's I'd say 1:19:29.360 --> 1:19:33.760 it's kind of just stays at this level. Um, so 1:19:36.200 --> 1:19:41.080 false exectations with the listeners. Anyways, the novel is called 1:19:41.200 --> 1:19:43.840 if this book exists, you're in the wrong universe. I 1:19:43.880 --> 1:19:45.880 am Jason Parson. I used to be one of the 1:19:45.880 --> 1:19:49.800 head guys that cracked when Evans first started posting there 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:55.200 as a literal child, I'm on this is a sequel 1:19:55.200 --> 1:19:58.240 to the book slash film John Dyes at the end 1:19:58.280 --> 1:20:00.240 it exists as both of those things. If you're fan 1:20:00.280 --> 1:20:02.960 of that, Seriousest is the latest book. Otherwise, if you 1:20:03.040 --> 1:20:05.200 just want to see me posting things on TikTok or 1:20:05.960 --> 1:20:08.400 on Twitter or on any of the other ones, my 1:20:08.479 --> 1:20:10.880 name is Jason Pargein p A R. G. I In. 1:20:11.479 --> 1:20:13.759 I used to write on the Internet as David Wong 1:20:13.840 --> 1:20:17.599 back in the day. Um, and we will. We'll be 1:20:17.680 --> 1:20:22.400 back for parts three and four. We share well. Um, 1:20:22.439 --> 1:20:25.640 you can find my book after the Revolution if you 1:20:25.720 --> 1:20:27.599 just type it into anything that will let you buy 1:20:27.600 --> 1:20:30.280 a book. You know how to use Google. We're done, 1:20:30.439 --> 1:20:34.439 Go Home. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool 1:20:34.520 --> 1:20:37.400 Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our 1:20:37.400 --> 1:20:40.840 website cool zone media dot com, or check us out 1:20:40.880 --> 1:20:43.479 on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1:20:43.560 --> 1:20:44.640 you get your podcasts.