1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,560 Speaker 1: Robert Evans here to tell you about the live show 2 00:00:04,640 --> 00:00:07,080 Speaker 1: for it could happen here that we're doing this October. 3 00:00:07,880 --> 00:00:10,799 Speaker 1: It'll be me and the whole team Chris's and James 4 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: and Garrison and Sophie and other fantastic people. Uh though, 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: or it will be a Q and A so you 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:19,440 Speaker 1: can submit questions and you can purchase tickets now at 7 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: moment house dot com slash I h H. Remember it's 8 00:00:23,120 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: on October at six pm, but the link will be 9 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 1: good to watch the show for up to a week 10 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 1: after it airs, and you can purchase tickets now at 11 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: moment house dot com slash i h H, where you 12 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:45,520 Speaker 1: will also be able to submit questions. Ah, welcome back 13 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 1: to Behind the Bastards. Um. I am Robert Evans. We're 14 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: talking about m KLT. This is part two of our 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:57,080 Speaker 1: series with Jason Pargeon. Jason, how who what are you? 16 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:06,400 Speaker 1: What are you? Jason? How much time do we have? Uh? No, 17 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:09,920 Speaker 1: I am a full time author now who used to 18 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:13,240 Speaker 1: be Evans boss speck of crack. Although if you're coming 19 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: on our part two of this episode, you know that 20 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,360 Speaker 1: you should circle back and what you listen to part one? 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: If you're if you skipped it, Jason. We have a 22 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 1: whole a whole series of fans. We call him backwards 23 00:01:26,480 --> 00:01:28,880 Speaker 1: these and they wait until the whole series is out, 24 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: and then they listen to everything backwards like Momento. It 25 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: makes it less depressing because then it's the story of 26 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:42,000 Speaker 1: a terrible person who ends up as a baby. Um. Yeah, Anyway, 27 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: I'm here promoting a book called If this book exists, 28 00:01:46,080 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: You're in the wrong universe. It is not a book 29 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: about mk ulture or anything we're talking about today. It 30 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: is a work of fiction that is a sequel to 31 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: the film and movie John dies at the end, which 32 00:01:56,800 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: fans of mine know that. Well, people who have never 33 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: heard of me, Uh, look at that. If you like it, 34 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: I mean, can you can go buy this book and 35 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: it'll it's in the same universe, in the same characters. 36 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: You say, it's not part of m k Ultra, But 37 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: if you were working for the CIA, that's what you'd say. 38 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: So you know, people can make their own People can 39 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,080 Speaker 1: make their own decisions about whether or not they think 40 00:02:19,240 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: you're part of the CIA. But we should probably talk 41 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: about who the guy who is your boss if you 42 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: are working in the CIA's mk ultrip program, Sydney Gottlieb. 43 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:31,680 Speaker 1: Actually he's been dead for decades. But now at this 44 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: point it is not yet called MK Ultra, right, Nope, 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 1: it is still it is a Project Artichoke is what 46 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: it's moved on to now, right. So it starts out 47 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 1: as m K Naomi and then Project Bluebird and now 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: Project Artichoke UM and these are all they just kind 49 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: of keep getting more funding and getting a bigger sort 50 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: of purview to go try and do weird mind control shit. 51 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,400 Speaker 1: And by the time Gottlieb takes over the Chemical division 52 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: because he's like running like the CIA's the chunk of 53 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,000 Speaker 1: the CIA that's like fucking with chemical right, pretty obvious. 54 00:03:01,200 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 1: So it's everything from like we need a drug for 55 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,480 Speaker 1: if guys get captured that they can like bite down 56 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 1: on a fucking fake tooth and kill themselves like in 57 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 1: dune Um, which is like they do stuff like that. 58 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: They actually do stuff like that um Like Sydney for 59 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 1: for an idea of where his career goes. He's the 60 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: guy who makes the poison cigars they try to kill 61 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: Castro with, like he's that guy for the CIA. But 62 00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: also obviously it includes stuff like lsd um and Alan 63 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: Dules by this point has been promoted to the number 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: two man at the CIA, so he has steadily risen up. 65 00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,960 Speaker 1: And because he's a big believer in mind control, that 66 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: means that Gottlieb is just getting more and more money 67 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,400 Speaker 1: in the early fifties to start pumping into this project 68 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: Artichoke shit Um. New research at the CIA is heavily 69 00:03:46,920 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: driven by what this blue blooded paranoid egomaniac decided he 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:54,040 Speaker 1: what he wanted researched. And in nineteen fifty two Alan 71 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 1: adds to his interest in psychedelics an interest in hypnosis, 72 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:02,080 Speaker 1: so he's he's already like thinks that there's some sort 73 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: of mind control drug that the Soviets have that he's 74 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: putting money into. And in fifty two he also starts 75 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:08,600 Speaker 1: to become like a fan of hypnosis. And this is 76 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 1: because he actually like goes to a show in New 77 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: York City and he watches a famous stage hypnotist um 78 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: And the thing that convinces him that hypnotism has military 79 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 1: or has like applications for the CIA is that he 80 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: goes it winds up hanging out with this stage hypnotist 81 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: after the show, and the guy's like, oh yeah, I 82 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 1: regularly rape women after putting them into a hypnotic trance. 83 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:33,880 Speaker 1: It's really easy. You can make hypnotize women and just 84 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: have sex with them. And this is like a thing 85 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: that I do. And you know everything you need to 86 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: know about Alan Dulis by the fact that this guy 87 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 1: says this and he immediately signs up to take a 88 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:45,599 Speaker 1: four day course from him. That is that is the 89 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 1: man Allen d sis Uh. People who have never listened 90 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: to the show before, I realized that it seems like 91 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: Robert and I are laughing at extremely inappropriate moments. The 92 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: please understand, this is a coping mechanism. We do not 93 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,720 Speaker 1: actually think that it is funny. What else do you 94 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:04,640 Speaker 1: do when you hear about that like that? When you 95 00:05:04,680 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: hear about a like the the second in command at 96 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,359 Speaker 1: the CIA, that's his fucking thought process? Is this man's like, 97 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: I commit felonies all the time on using hypnosis and 98 00:05:14,360 --> 00:05:15,919 Speaker 1: he's like, oh yeah, let me take I want to 99 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: take a fucking course from you. And your audience knows 100 00:05:19,600 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: that hypnotism, like that form of hypnotism, like the pop 101 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: culture form where you can make somebody squawk like a chicken, 102 00:05:25,960 --> 00:05:27,920 Speaker 1: like plaining, like that's not a thing, right, Like they 103 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: know that's not a thing. No, this man is just 104 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: assaulting people. Um and fucking sure enough, Alan Dulas takes 105 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: a course from him. We'll talk about actual hypnosis in 106 00:05:37,080 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: a little bit, but Allendlis takes this course and he 107 00:05:40,040 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: goes back to work at the CIA and d C, 108 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and he tries to hypnotize his female co workers. Um. 109 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 1: He uses CIA secretaries as his guinea pigs. He induces 110 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: trances in them. Stephen Kinser says that he got them 111 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 1: to quote do things they might not otherwise consider, like 112 00:05:56,480 --> 00:06:00,640 Speaker 1: flirting with strangers or revealing office secrets. And my the 113 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 1: feeling I get is that they're kind of playing along 114 00:06:03,920 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 1: to an extent because this guy is their boss and 115 00:06:07,680 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: they don't want to make him angry. Hopefully he doesn't 116 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: from kindser doesn't say he actually assaults any of these women. 117 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: So hopefully this doesn't go any further than just you know, 118 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 1: grossly inappropriate sexual harassment. Um. But we really don't know, 119 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: because it is the c i A. I mean without 120 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:28,080 Speaker 1: the aid of some sort of a medication or chemical 121 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: or something that probably cannot be done. Like stage hypnosis 122 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: works because you get people up on a stage and 123 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:38,320 Speaker 1: they like to participate in the show, so you're like 124 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: lowering their inhibitions, basically giving them permission to be part 125 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: of the show. And so like some of it, it 126 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,160 Speaker 1: works in like a subconscious level. But the type again 127 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: that the type that exists has existed in pulp culture 128 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: pop culture for decades where you can like turn somebody 129 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: into a zombie and make them do whatever purely through hypnosis. Again, 130 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: hypnosis paired with whatever drugs they were working with at 131 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:06,960 Speaker 1: the time may do that put somebody where they're in 132 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: like a half awake state of you know, they're not 133 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 1: fully making decisions or whatever. The just hypnosis. Uh, that's no, 134 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 1: that's just a sleazy weirdo. It's a sleazy where And 135 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: probably what is actually to the extent that that hypnotist 136 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,679 Speaker 1: is like hypno quote unquote hypnotizing and then having sex 137 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: with him and like well he gets them alone because 138 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: he's famous, and then they like you know, pretend to 139 00:07:30,840 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: be hypnotized because it's the safest thing to do, right 140 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 1: or or none of it ever happened, and he just 141 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: lies he's a liar. That's entirely possible too, that he's 142 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: such a sleezball that he lies about using hypnosis to 143 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 1: rape women because he thinks that makes him look cool, 144 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: and guess what, back at the time, it did. So 145 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: all of these things are possible. We will not know 146 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,880 Speaker 1: what exactly happens, but we know the result of this 147 00:07:57,000 --> 00:08:00,080 Speaker 1: is that after being a real creep at work and 148 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 1: Dulus writes a memo to the Project art at Choke 149 00:08:02,760 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: team quote. If hypnotic control can be established over any 150 00:08:06,240 --> 00:08:10,360 Speaker 1: participant in clandestine operations, the operator will have an extraordinary 151 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 1: degree of influence, a control in order of magnitude beyond 152 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 1: anything that we have considered feasible. Now, as you said, Jason, 153 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: hypnosis is like a thing. There's a there's like studies 154 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 1: that scientists do on people's brains, and hypnotic trance is 155 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:28,720 Speaker 1: a thing that people experience. There are documented effects of 156 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 1: being hypnotized, and hypnosis can be effective in conjunction with 157 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: certain therapies. But as you said, hypnotizing does not mean 158 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:38,480 Speaker 1: that you're putting someone into a state where they will 159 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: take commands and do whatever you can kind of induce 160 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 1: or affect feelings of anxiety and pain and trauma. Actual 161 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: professionals who use hypnosis will use it to like you, 162 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: can there's some evidence that can be used to reduce 163 00:08:50,960 --> 00:08:53,079 Speaker 1: chronic pain in certain ways. It can be reduced, it 164 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 1: can be used to reduce the pain of childbirth. Hypnosis 165 00:08:56,400 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: has been shown to have some efficacy at treating addiction 166 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 1: and PTSD. I'm not gonna get into it. I don't 167 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,200 Speaker 1: understand hypnosis. Well, I don't think anyone really does. It 168 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: seems like the kind of thing that there's still a 169 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:09,560 Speaker 1: lot of like debate about, but like it is a thing. 170 00:09:10,000 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: It's on the same level something like meditation has absolutely 171 00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: measurable effects. No one would question that. But that's somewhere 172 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,000 Speaker 1: out there, there's somebody claiming that, you know, you're meditating, 173 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:22,600 Speaker 1: you're tapping into the energies of the universe or whatever, 174 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: you're leaving your body, and you're not. It's just we 175 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: don't understand a lot about how the brain works. But 176 00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,800 Speaker 1: it's just that what he's talking about was like, well, 177 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,800 Speaker 1: if you could do the thing where you wave a 178 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: watch in front of somebody and then now using a 179 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: keyword later, you can make them your slave. The thing 180 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,600 Speaker 1: as it exists in the Manchurion, Canada or whatever. You know, 181 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: all these movies, these throwers that were made in the 182 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: wake of people believing hypnosis was real. That's the thing 183 00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: that doesn't exist in terms of using this way to 184 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: like recover memories, that kind of thing, you know, putting 185 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 1: the brain into a relaxed, susceptible state. There's all sorts 186 00:09:57,840 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: of ways to do that. Um. But yeah, yeah, um, 187 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,480 Speaker 1: so Alan Dullis, you know again, as hypnosis is a thing, 188 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: but Alan Dullis is mostly interested in using it to 189 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: take over people's brains and get information out of them. 190 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,640 Speaker 1: And potentially the thing that he's most excited about, and 191 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 1: the thing that everyone of the CIA is kind of 192 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: most excited about, is the potential to turn people into 193 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: sleeper agents who can be sent back home to carry 194 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 1: out attacks, right, Like that's the the Manchurian candidate thing. 195 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: That's what the CIA actually wants to do, and they 196 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,680 Speaker 1: do believe that this is possible. Um. Gottlieb is certain 197 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:37,600 Speaker 1: of it. Um. And Gottlieb tells uh Dullus that like, yeah, 198 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,319 Speaker 1: you know, hypnosis can work, and particularly if we mix 199 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:45,080 Speaker 1: hypnosis with these different hallucinogenic drugs people have started testing. 200 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: Have you heard of LSD? You know, That's kind of 201 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: how the conversation goes although they actually do. They start 202 00:10:50,640 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: with marijuana. Um. And this is because marijuana was something 203 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 1: the OSS had tested pretty heavily on themselves back during 204 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: World War Two. Uh. They mixed it into very US 205 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: foods and they've smoked it to try to prove that 206 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,880 Speaker 1: it had potential is a truth drug. Um. This did 207 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:06,599 Speaker 1: not work, as anyone who's ever had the light of 208 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: the cops while stoned as hell could tell you. Um. 209 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 1: Next the OS or next the CIA used so that 210 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 1: under Gottlieb, they do try some marijuana experiments, it does 211 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: not prove effective. They move on to cocaine. Next, Gottlieb 212 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: used CIA cutouts to sponsor medical experiments in which mental 213 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 1: patients are injected with cocaine. So they are going into 214 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: people who are institutionalized with like schizophrenia, and they are 215 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: injecting them with cocaine to see if it will make 216 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: people want to talk. Now, Jason, you've never done cocaine, right, No, 217 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: But I have been around somebody who was on it 218 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: and they actually did talk quieter they do it does 219 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: it does work? For that? I will say that for cocaine, 220 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 1: it does make you want to talk now. And also 221 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: if you need to write a Hollywood screenplay and like 222 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: one one hundred hour long writing session. Nothing really beats 223 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: cocaine for that. Apparently, as my my namesake, the other 224 00:12:02,200 --> 00:12:05,520 Speaker 1: Robert Evans could have told you if his heart hadn't 225 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 1: exploded from seventy years of shooting cocaine straight into his lungs. Um. 226 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: But you know, I think you may also note that 227 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,640 Speaker 1: while cocaine does want to make people want to talk, 228 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: it doesn't make them reliably tell the truth. You can 229 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,800 Speaker 1: actually lie really well while on a shipload of cocaine. UM. Otherwise, 230 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:28,400 Speaker 1: nightclubs probably wouldn't exist in the same form. UM. So 231 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:32,680 Speaker 1: cocaine not a great truth drug. After this comes heroin, UM, 232 00:12:32,760 --> 00:12:35,960 Speaker 1: which if you were going to me and saying which 233 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:38,560 Speaker 1: drug is least likely to be an effective truth serum, 234 00:12:38,800 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: I would probably say heroin. Stephen Kinzer writes that quote. 235 00:12:42,679 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: Surviving CIA memos note that heroin was frequently used by 236 00:12:46,120 --> 00:12:49,679 Speaker 1: police and intelligence officers, and that it and other addictive 237 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: substances can be useful in reverse because of the stress 238 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:54,440 Speaker 1: as they produce when they're withdrawn from those who are 239 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,079 Speaker 1: addicted to their use. So, in other words, cops, when 240 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: the CIA is like, hey, you know, let's let's reach 241 00:13:00,679 --> 00:13:03,040 Speaker 1: out to some cops. We know some narcotics guys. Let's 242 00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: reach out to like the FBI. Uh. See what they 243 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:08,200 Speaker 1: say about using heroin as a truth drug. All these 244 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:12,360 Speaker 1: field agents are like, well, heroin is like great, uh, 245 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: and a bunch of like a bunch of the people 246 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: talk to them are CI agents who are like, well, yeah, 247 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: you can use it as a truth drug for people. 248 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: But like, the way it works is you get them 249 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: addicted to heroin and then they'll do whatever you tell them, 250 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: right like, and then you take it away of yeah, 251 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: withdrawal the promise of getting heroin, they will do whatever 252 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: you ask. But again, as with all interrogation techniques, nothing 253 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: stopping them from just lying to you exactly, and that 254 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: continues to be the problem. Um. One thing I did 255 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 1: find interesting is that like a lot of their early 256 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,839 Speaker 1: info on heroin comes from narcotics agents and CIA field 257 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: agents who are like, the only reason I haven't killed 258 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,720 Speaker 1: myself from doing this job is that I use heroin. Like, 259 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 1: those are a lot of their early sources, which tells 260 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 1: you a lot about these agencies. Um. There's like a 261 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 1: couple of very funny moments here. My favorite is that 262 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: at one point using like working. As part of this program, 263 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: the Navy sponsors a study where they pay college students 264 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: to take heroin to see if it works as a 265 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:18,240 Speaker 1: truth drug. Um it does not. Uh So the next 266 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: thing they try is mescal, And the Nazi doctors the 267 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: CIA had hired to help them with their torturing people 268 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:27,800 Speaker 1: at black sites had all given mescal into prisoners at Dokao. 269 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: And so when they bring these guys in, they tell 270 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:33,520 Speaker 1: the CIA, Hey, mescalin seems like it might work as 271 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: a truth s here. Maybe you should try that next. 272 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 1: But of course mescalin does not work that way. No 273 00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: drug works that way. I have lied to cops on 274 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 1: a number of hallucinogens. None of them seem to function 275 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: as a truth serum and my experience. But the assumptions 276 00:14:49,600 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: they're making here about how the mind works, that's the 277 00:14:52,120 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: thing is it's almost to imply that when somebody is 278 00:14:56,680 --> 00:15:01,800 Speaker 1: intoxicated that they're becoming more honest. I don't I think 279 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: that's true in almost any way. Like you lawre somebody's inhibitions, 280 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: they may be just as likely to say the most 281 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: outrageous thing they can think of. Like I I don't 282 00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 1: think that being incredibly drunk revealed like Nel Gibson's perfect 283 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:21,520 Speaker 1: true feelings. I think it made him more racist than 284 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 1: what he probably is in everyday life, because it just 285 00:15:25,240 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: unleashed his ability to just say the worst possible thing 286 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,840 Speaker 1: that popped into his into his head. Yeah, And it's 287 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 1: also like I think the thing that and I think 288 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: they are starting to recognize that at this point because 289 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,240 Speaker 1: the early they keep having these experiments and like they 290 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: never find their truth drug, but they do find. Like 291 00:15:45,520 --> 00:15:47,440 Speaker 1: one thing that is true is that people who are 292 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: really fucked up are easier to manipulate, you know, like 293 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: a drunk person. If you're sober, maybe you'll be it'll 294 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: be easy for you to get them to do something 295 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,400 Speaker 1: that you want them to do, right. And the same 296 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: thing is true within limits to people who are on 297 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:03,000 Speaker 1: other substances. People are a little bit easier to like 298 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: convince to do things sometimes in certain ways. If those 299 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:10,280 Speaker 1: things aren't you can't, like somebody's tripping on acid, You're 300 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: probably not going to convince them to commit murder. But 301 00:16:12,560 --> 00:16:14,640 Speaker 1: if they are the kind of person who is inclined 302 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 1: to like strip naked and one through a party, it 303 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:19,080 Speaker 1: will be easier to convince than the strip naked and 304 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 1: run through a party, right they are. It does make 305 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 1: people suggestible in that way. So one thing that's happening 306 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 1: in this period is the CIA is moving away from like, 307 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 1: well maybe this maybe we'll we'll we'll back burner, the 308 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 1: mind can or the truth serum, but we think this 309 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 1: stuff will let us program people because it does seem 310 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: to make them more susceptible, right, So that's kind of 311 00:16:40,040 --> 00:16:42,640 Speaker 1: as they're sort of experimenting with this stuff. It's not 312 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: just truth serum. They're also like, is this the drug 313 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: that's gonna let us reprogram Soviet spies and like send 314 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: them back as saboteurs because that is increasingly the thing 315 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: that Dolus thinks is going to be possible. And they're 316 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: they're thinking about like, well, let's try giving them cocaine 317 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: and then we'll hypnotize them. Let's try giving them mescaline 318 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: and then we'll hypno ties them. And obviously none of 319 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: this works great, but they're getting at least enough that 320 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 1: they're convinced they're just sort of like one drug away 321 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: from making it work. Um. And by the way, that 322 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:14,240 Speaker 1: the funniest part to me, And it's funny again in 323 00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: the context that I mentioned earlier. It's darkly humorous is 324 00:17:17,920 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: as far as I can tell. They now in two 325 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: by far the most successful examples they have of like 326 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: flipping people or turning people into double agents and all that. 327 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,000 Speaker 1: It's just by giving them a big old suitcase full 328 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: of cash that works really well, and they finally, finally, 329 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 1: after spending billions or however much money they spent on 330 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: this stuff over the years, it's like, hey, we have 331 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 1: found a way that can manipulate to make somebody turn 332 00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 1: against their own country, which is if you give them 333 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,520 Speaker 1: like a Lamborghini and a giant suitcase full of cold, 334 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: hard cash, they're actually willing to flip on their own country, 335 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: their friends, their their comrades. Yeah, yeah, people will do 336 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: like I mean, you know, there's also still Heroin is 337 00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:05,240 Speaker 1: actually still a big one. Like when the FBI was 338 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: breaking up the green during the Green Scare, when the 339 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 1: FBI was like breaking up environmental extremists like organizations, they 340 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 1: would often target like individuals who they knew were like 341 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:19,520 Speaker 1: addicted to smack. Because you find somebody who's got that addiction, 342 00:18:19,600 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: you take it away from them, it's a little easier 343 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: to get them to roll on their friends, or you 344 00:18:23,560 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: arrest them and you tell them like, hey, we've you've 345 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:27,320 Speaker 1: got this amount of stuff on you. We have you 346 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: did the rights. It's a twenty five year sentence unless 347 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:32,840 Speaker 1: you help us out by rolling on your friend. Right, Like, 348 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: all of these things can be used to control people's behavior, 349 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 1: but none of it works. The two things that work 350 00:18:39,160 --> 00:18:43,000 Speaker 1: best our prison time and money. Yeah, yeah, just threats 351 00:18:43,000 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: and threats and money, the same thing that worked years ago. 352 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: And the Soviets, by the way, never don't know this. Well, 353 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: they're fucking around with the psychic research. They're just being like, well, 354 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 1: we either bribe people or we hit them. This works great. Um, 355 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: it's the CIA. It is convinced there's some much more 356 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: esoteric way to do this. Ship. Uh So Gottlieb, as 357 00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:08,439 Speaker 1: they kind of go through this rolodex of drugs and 358 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: none of them work, starts to become convinced that the 359 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: answer to his boss's prayers, to Dulus's prayers might be 360 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:18,359 Speaker 1: L S D. Because again he's read about this scientists, 361 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,520 Speaker 1: smart people. Especially again, Gottlieb's kind of a proto hippie. 362 00:19:22,600 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: You know, the hippie movement hasn't exist yet, but he's 363 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: one of the kinds of people who's going to feed 364 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: into it um all of that, those kinds of those seekers, 365 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: that people who are interested in mysticism and stuff. They're 366 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: all starting to talk about hallucinogens, and they're all starting 367 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 1: to talk about acid. So Gottlieb reaches out to Harold Abramson. 368 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 1: Abramson is a doctor who had worked with the CIA 369 00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,840 Speaker 1: on past mind control and poison experiments. He was also 370 00:19:46,880 --> 00:19:49,919 Speaker 1: a seeker himself, and he'd taken LSD several times and 371 00:19:49,960 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 1: given it out to colleagues on multiple occasions. Acting as 372 00:19:53,119 --> 00:19:56,920 Speaker 1: one of the first modern trip sitters. Abramson gave Gottlieb 373 00:19:57,119 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: l s D and the two hung out. Sidney wrote 374 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:02,959 Speaker 1: this about his first trip. I happen to experience an 375 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,960 Speaker 1: out of bodiness, a feeling as though I am in 376 00:20:05,000 --> 00:20:08,000 Speaker 1: a kind of transparent sausage skin that covers my whole 377 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,520 Speaker 1: body and it is shimmering, and I have a sense 378 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:13,200 Speaker 1: of well being and euphoria for most of the next 379 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: hour or two hours, and then it gradually subsides. And 380 00:20:17,040 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: I think he takes a pretty small dose, because LSD 381 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: a normal dose to LSD if you're like taking a 382 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: solid dose if you're actually tripping, it lasts like eight 383 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:27,640 Speaker 1: to sometimes twelve hours. You know, like some you can 384 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:29,399 Speaker 1: you can make it last longer if you take a 385 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: very heavy dose. Longest I've ever tripped is maybe eighteen hours. 386 00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. One reason why I've never experimented with the 387 00:20:39,359 --> 00:20:41,840 Speaker 1: stuff is I absolutely would be the guy who just 388 00:20:41,880 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: sits there, like my body is a sausage. I'm assigned 389 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: a skin sausage. It's not an unpleasant thing necessarily to 390 00:20:50,840 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 1: be a skin sausage. Um LS like LSD is whenever 391 00:20:56,240 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 1: I recommend, like if people are curious about hallucinogen, silo 392 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 1: cybin is by far like the easiest to start with 393 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: because kind of no matter how much you take your 394 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: top out at three or four hours, So it is 395 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: the kind if you have a bad time, it's going 396 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,400 Speaker 1: to be over soon. LSD. If you take too much 397 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 1: or have a bad time, it can be really unpleasant 398 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,119 Speaker 1: because it lasts a long time. So it's it's the 399 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: kind of thing people shouldn't mess around with unless they've 400 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: like built up to it. That that would be my opinion. 401 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: I'm not telling you to commit illegal acts by taking drugs, 402 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,800 Speaker 1: but maybe I wouldn't start with LSD if if you're 403 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,800 Speaker 1: asking for my advice on this stuff. Um, But the 404 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: other advice is to go to a very reliable source 405 00:21:36,560 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: where you know how much you're getting. Yeah, because I 406 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: think half the people I've ever talked to have taken 407 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: acid have an experience for one time they took it, 408 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,919 Speaker 1: absolutely nothing happened. Yeah, It's like, well, yeah, because you 409 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:48,360 Speaker 1: just got it sold to you by a guy and 410 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: he just gave you a piece of paper, like and 411 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,679 Speaker 1: and nowadays a lot another problem is that, like you 412 00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 1: don't usually know you're getting acid, there's a bunch of 413 00:21:56,560 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: other research chemicals that work similarly that you can also 414 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,159 Speaker 1: that you could just dissolve in water and put on stuff, 415 00:22:02,440 --> 00:22:05,720 Speaker 1: and they're easier to get that acid. Um, which is 416 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: normally fine. A lot of people probably take something that's 417 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: not acid, think it's acid and have a good time. 418 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:14,440 Speaker 1: But some of that stuff has more healthcare. LSD is 419 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,760 Speaker 1: fairly safe actually, unless you're taking nightmare doses of it, 420 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 1: like it doesn't. I don't think it even has a 421 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: recorded LD fifty. I'm sure. I'm sure they found enough 422 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 1: to kill people, but like it's very difficult to have 423 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: like an overdose in the way that is like like 424 00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: heroin or something. Um. But there are other research chemicals 425 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 1: that you can die on that people sometimes just sell 426 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: as acid because it's an illegal, unregulated market, right, which 427 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 1: is as Jason said, you should always know your dealer 428 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: if you want to start playing around with this stuff. 429 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:46,720 Speaker 1: There's organizations like Project Dance Safe that sell test kits 430 00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:49,919 Speaker 1: for a number of different substances. If it's possible to 431 00:22:50,000 --> 00:22:53,040 Speaker 1: test and know what you're taking, you always should. Um, 432 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: they're not we're advising illegal acts. Yeah, there's sebredits that 433 00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,240 Speaker 1: do nothing but discuss, like share information about this kind 434 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,399 Speaker 1: of thing, which, as much as we criticize Reddit and 435 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,919 Speaker 1: actually having a community like that um to warn you 436 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: about what to lookout for things like that actually matters 437 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:10,399 Speaker 1: a lot. This has always been an argument for the 438 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 1: legalization because then you can actually know precisely what you're getting. Yeah, 439 00:23:14,480 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 1: you know, Um, but that that is the argument I 440 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:19,240 Speaker 1: would make. But that's we're we're off the off the 441 00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:23,080 Speaker 1: map below here. So LSD. Gottlieb has his first trip 442 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: and he has a pretty good time with it. Um, 443 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,520 Speaker 1: he starts to get kind of obsessed with it. And 444 00:23:29,520 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 1: this is a thing I can't prove this subjectively. I 445 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: haven't even found this written any of the writing about Gottlieb. 446 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:36,560 Speaker 1: But like a thing that I have noticed in my 447 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,640 Speaker 1: own life as a guy who hangs out and does 448 00:23:38,720 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 1: drugs is some people just kind of get obsessed with LSD. 449 00:23:42,320 --> 00:23:45,600 Speaker 1: It is a particular thing to LSD. It had you noticed, 450 00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: like Albert Hoffman, right, for whatever reason, before he even 451 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,359 Speaker 1: takes it, he they synthesize this thing and for five 452 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 1: years he can't get it out of his head until 453 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:55,800 Speaker 1: he actually tries it. Right. There's just kind of something 454 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 1: that certain people find really fascinating about this substance. And 455 00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: I think as much is everything else. The fact that 456 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:05,600 Speaker 1: Gottlieb just kind of gets obsessed with acid is a 457 00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 1: big part of why it becomes the drug of m 458 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 1: K ultra right, because it doesn't work any better than 459 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: these other drugs. It does not, again spoilers, none of 460 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:18,400 Speaker 1: this creates a perfect mind control drug. Um. Probably we'll 461 00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:20,879 Speaker 1: get to that a bit later. Um, but it is 462 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: It's a thing I've seen happen to more people. And 463 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 1: this is not usually a bad thing. People just like 464 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 1: take a lot of acid that can be fine. Um, 465 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: and chemists and neuroscientists are especially likely to find themselves 466 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,119 Speaker 1: fascinated by LSD. You will, this is about to happen 467 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: to a whole generation of very smart people, Folks like 468 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Kinksey Um, Folks like uh oh, Jesus, Timothy Leary. Goddamn um, 469 00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:47,360 Speaker 1: I can't believe I forgot Timothy Leary's name. Uh. So, yeah, 470 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: you have this like generation of like all And and 471 00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 1: Leary and uh And and Kinks and whatnot. They're all 472 00:24:54,640 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: kind of in a lot of ways similar people to Gottlieb. 473 00:24:57,520 --> 00:25:00,920 Speaker 1: They have these similar opinions. Unlike these this grarian back 474 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: to you know, nature sort of stuff. They they're they're 475 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,960 Speaker 1: these they're fascinated by Eastern mysticism and spiritualism. Like the 476 00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,680 Speaker 1: degree to which the CIA's head poison guy is kind 477 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: of a hippie is very important to this story. Um. Now, 478 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: at no point did Gottlieb have any hard evidence that 479 00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639 Speaker 1: LSD would make a better truth serum or mind control 480 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:24,359 Speaker 1: drug than any other narcotic he tested. But he starts 481 00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,960 Speaker 1: to become convinced that it holds the secret to all 482 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: of the things he's trying to accomplish for Alan Dullis, 483 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,359 Speaker 1: and so he's going to spend the next ten years 484 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,720 Speaker 1: dosing possibly tens of thousands of people to try and 485 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: improve that. First, he starts by dosing other CIA agents 486 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,120 Speaker 1: and some scientists working in adjacent government spook projects because 487 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,800 Speaker 1: they're testing initially, they're trying to use this as a weapon, right, 488 00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 1: They're still trying to see, like, can this be used 489 00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: to like take over somebody's mind. Can this be used 490 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:54,239 Speaker 1: to at least, like, you know, disable a spy. A 491 00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 1: lot of these guys agree to be dosed by surprise, 492 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: so this is consensual, right, There's nothing wrong with saying, yes, 493 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:02,960 Speaker 1: you can sneak LSD into my food at a random 494 00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:04,920 Speaker 1: point in time, because we want to see what happens 495 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: when you're surprised by LSD in the middle of like 496 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,800 Speaker 1: a workday. Because nobody has done that, right, they have 497 00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:13,720 Speaker 1: not started like horribly doing things with this yet, but 498 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:16,080 Speaker 1: you can see kind of where stuff's about to go. 499 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: Because the very next group of people they start to 500 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: drug is army trainees, and these people are have agreed 501 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: to be in studies for the army. They don't know 502 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:27,360 Speaker 1: that they're going to be dosed with LSD, so they're 503 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 1: just kind of like drugging eighteen year old boys with 504 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 1: this mystery substance that nobody's really tested. Um, and a 505 00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 1: lot of people have very terrible experiences, which probably shouldn't 506 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:39,600 Speaker 1: surprise you. Um, it does seem like a lot of 507 00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 1: these Army guys have great times too, and a lot 508 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:43,959 Speaker 1: of the CIA guys have a lot of this. Like 509 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: is they're partying right, Like they're not just dosing each 510 00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: other and taking diligent notes. They're like having a good time. Um, 511 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,960 Speaker 1: and you know the government's paying for it. In these 512 00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: early days, Gottlieben, his fellow Bluebird Artichoke researchers, dosed themselves 513 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: more often than they do to anyone else. They'd carry 514 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,159 Speaker 1: out fake interrogations and try to convince each other to 515 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 1: give up secrets that they promised before taking drugs not 516 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:08,720 Speaker 1: to tell um. And they were able to get each 517 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,360 Speaker 1: other and army officers to reveal like secrets. But this 518 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: is like this is not a real test, right, Like 519 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 1: they're agreeing ahead of time, what's the secret? You're not 520 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,639 Speaker 1: going to give up? Okay, Now we're gonna drug you 521 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: and we'll see if we can get you to give 522 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 1: up the secret. Jason, can you think of any reason 523 00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,679 Speaker 1: why that might not be replicable to actually trying to 524 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:31,000 Speaker 1: get information out of somebody. Really hard to overstate the 525 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: role of consent in this whole thing. Yes, and they're 526 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,760 Speaker 1: playing a game which even at that, at that early stage, 527 00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:41,359 Speaker 1: they should have. It feels like basic logic should have 528 00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: played a role in this. But yeah, I mean, you know, yeah, 529 00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: so this is all very flawed and everything they're going 530 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: to do is deeply flawed research at like the conceptual 531 00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:56,520 Speaker 1: level in ways that I don't part of it's probably 532 00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:01,720 Speaker 1: just that the concept of hallucinogens um, particular, particularly like 533 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: artificially created hallucinogens, you know, because LSD does not just 534 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: randomly occur in the way that like mushrooms do, is 535 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 1: much newer than so I think some of it's just 536 00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: that people don't understand this stuff as well. But it 537 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: does really seem like they're making basic failures of logic 538 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: here um. But there are some reasons I have to say, 539 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,280 Speaker 1: there are some reasons why you can see people at 540 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: this time would have thought LSD could be a really 541 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: good weapon for like spy ship um acid is colorless 542 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:31,880 Speaker 1: and odorless. You can put it in basically any liquid 543 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:35,199 Speaker 1: or other kind of substance, and people can't there's no 544 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:37,640 Speaker 1: way to tell that you have asset on you. Um, 545 00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:41,280 Speaker 1: so you can transport significant quantities of it without being 546 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,480 Speaker 1: detected in a pretty much infinite number of ways. It's 547 00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,520 Speaker 1: once you are able to make it, it's pretty much 548 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,840 Speaker 1: free on a per dose basis, and very small amounts 549 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,400 Speaker 1: of asset have gigantic effects. So there's good reasons why 550 00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: the substance is like, well, yeah, if you could make 551 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:58,520 Speaker 1: this work for us, this would be a great thing. 552 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: We can very easily sneak this on spies and get 553 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,720 Speaker 1: them into anywhere. Okay, But I think I want to 554 00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: ask the question that I think a lot of the 555 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: listeners are asking, which is like today, when we hear 556 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:11,440 Speaker 1: about the experiments done with the stuff, it's experiments on 557 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,080 Speaker 1: like trying to cure people with PTSD, trying to cure depression, 558 00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: trying to like if it affects the brain that much, 559 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,680 Speaker 1: if people claim to have had almost a holy experience 560 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: on it, that's like, well could it? You know, it 561 00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:28,479 Speaker 1: feels like it shouldn't have just been the CIA dealing 562 00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,080 Speaker 1: with this. It feels like you should have had whatever 563 00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:35,760 Speaker 1: the giant pharmaceutical companies were at the time experimenting with 564 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: it as a therapy, saying, what could this be the 565 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:43,080 Speaker 1: drug that will make housewives okay with they with staying 566 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,840 Speaker 1: at home and doing nothing but laundry all day. Do 567 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: you see what I'm saying? Was that going on or 568 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: was it just the CIA that was doing that was 569 00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: working with this stuff. We're actually going to talk about 570 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: that in a little bit. Yes, this is going on 571 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 1: to an extent, but it's very limited at this point 572 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,440 Speaker 1: in time. The only people in the world who can 573 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:04,920 Speaker 1: make LSD are Sandals laboratories, right, they have figured it 574 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,320 Speaker 1: out and they're not sharing the recipe, so they are 575 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: the only source of LSD. They're only making a limited amount, 576 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,959 Speaker 1: and the CIA buys basically all of it. They do 577 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: send a bunch out for research. There are other organizations 578 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:21,320 Speaker 1: researching this. There's actually in the Soviet Union and all 579 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:25,080 Speaker 1: over the world there's actual studies therapeutic studies on LSD 580 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: in this period. But the majority of the drug by weight, 581 00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 1: goes to the c I. A okay, yeah, they that's 582 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 1: that tells you a lot about the state of the 583 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 1: world at the time that they priorities or whatever, because 584 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: you have everything they think they know about this. It's 585 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 1: not just oh, this would make a good weapon, Like 586 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,000 Speaker 1: on the list of things you could do with it 587 00:30:47,080 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: to change the world, that's not even in the top 588 00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,320 Speaker 1: one hundred, Like when you're talking about, oh, this totally alters, 589 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: you know, the way people behave, the way they can 590 00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: be influenced, the way they think that, you know, like 591 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,880 Speaker 1: we're everybody who takes it becomes obsessed with it. And 592 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 1: it's like you would think just the pure capitalism of 593 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: the country would come into places like, oh, this is 594 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,760 Speaker 1: we could make a bunch of money. It's cheap to make, 595 00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: people will pay a lot of money for it. The 596 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: fact that it's there, I guess it's just a limit 597 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: of the imagination. When you're in like a war footing, 598 00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,640 Speaker 1: it's like, no, this could you could get your theory 599 00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: like they have these convoluted, almost cartoonish ideas of like, well, 600 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: in theory, if you could inject a spy with it, 601 00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: you could make him do this if we also, yeah, 602 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:43,000 Speaker 1: there's just this. It's it's because like number one, the 603 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: sand DAWs is I think kind of they're looking for 604 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: any kind of use that will make this profitable, right, 605 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 1: and so the first group that has that puts a 606 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 1: lot of money down for acid is the c I A. 607 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,000 Speaker 1: So that has an impact from the beginning, like who 608 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 1: else gets it and how much of it is available? 609 00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:07,520 Speaker 1: And I just don't think. I don't think guys like 610 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: Gottlieb when they hear stuff like because there is early 611 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: research on LSD and alcoholism, and when they hear stuff 612 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: like we can treat alcoholism with LSD, all these guys 613 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: because they are, as you said, they're so focused on 614 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: this war. All they hear is that just that means 615 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 1: that you can change people with this. You can change there. 616 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:28,120 Speaker 1: You can alter a person's mindset, you can like control 617 00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 1: their mind. If you can get them to stop being 618 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: an alcoholic, maybe you can stop them from being a communist, 619 00:32:32,520 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: you know, Like that's that's straight where they go. And 620 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: they have the ability to effectively buy up the world's 621 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: supply of acid, which they do in this period. In fact, 622 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,680 Speaker 1: all of the LSD that gets out in the early 623 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: eras of the hippie movement, and like is the is 624 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,400 Speaker 1: the acid that like fucking dudes like Hunter Thompson and 625 00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:52,760 Speaker 1: the Beatles are taking right that ship all comes from 626 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: the CIA. Oh, I had no idea but it makes sense. 627 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: I mean that's you know, and not all just as 628 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: part as MK ultra. Because guys like Abramson, who gives 629 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: Gottlieba's first dose, he's working with the CIA as a contractor. 630 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: He's also just a guy who's interested in this and 631 00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: does it with his friends. And his friends include a 632 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: lot of these like influential intellectuals who are going to 633 00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: be big leaders in the sixties. Um. And so they 634 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 1: all start taking LSD that he gets from the CIA. Together. 635 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:26,880 Speaker 1: That's like how acid gets out. It's through the agency, um, 636 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: not always in controlled ways, not always as parts of studies. 637 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: But we're building to that. But you know what else 638 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: we're building towards Jason an ad break an ad break, Jason, 639 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: have you ever heard of Blue Apron No. I it's 640 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 1: weird because I listened to like four hours of podcast today, 641 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 1: but I've never it's never come up. Well, that's a 642 00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: it's a company that makes food boxes, and we used 643 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: to have a running joke here behind the Bastards about 644 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,760 Speaker 1: how they also had an island where people could hunt 645 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: children for sport. And I thought, Jason, I thought that 646 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: was a joke that everyone would recognize as a joke. 647 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 1: But it turns out a lot of people messaged us 648 00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 1: distraught thinking that there was a real child hunting island. Um, 649 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 1: so now we're warning people and a couple of different 650 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,280 Speaker 1: episodes of the show there's no child hunting island. It's fine. 651 00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 1: That was a joke. We're not going to make the 652 00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: joke anymore. Please please stop being worried that Blue Apron 653 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: has an island where people hunt children for sport. They don't. Anyway, 654 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: here's ads possibly including Blue Apron. Ah, we're back, um, 655 00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:42,879 Speaker 1: and we're talking about Sydney, Gottlieb and the CIA. So 656 00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,239 Speaker 1: the other reason that Gottlieb is able to kind of 657 00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: get the agency to focus on LST there's you know, 658 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 1: it makes sense, there's reasons why it might be a 659 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: good weapon. Um. But he's able to bring up a 660 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 1: bunch of Russian scientific journals, which in the early fifties 661 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: start to file the first Soviet Union report on the 662 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,880 Speaker 1: discovery of LSD. Obviously LSD has existed for a while. 663 00:35:04,280 --> 00:35:06,799 Speaker 1: Information does not travel as fast in these days, so 664 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,719 Speaker 1: the Soviets kind of start, you start and this is 665 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 1: not there's actually nothing sinister here. It's just academics in 666 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: the Soviet Union, who are like, and now there's this 667 00:35:14,680 --> 00:35:16,719 Speaker 1: this thing called acid, and we're getting small amounts of 668 00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 1: it from Sandas and we're testing it in these ways. Um. 669 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 1: This causes dolus Is analysts to claim that the l 670 00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 1: the U S s R is stockpiling argot as a 671 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 1: raw material. Um. Now their own assessments admit there's no 672 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:32,800 Speaker 1: evidence that this is happening. And in fact, here's exactly 673 00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: what dollus Is analysts right. Quote. Although no Soviet data 674 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:40,160 Speaker 1: are available in LSDI, it must be assumed that the 675 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:43,160 Speaker 1: scientists of the U. S. S are are thoroughly cognizant 676 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,840 Speaker 1: of the strategic importance of this powerful new drug and 677 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:49,479 Speaker 1: are capable of producing it at any time. That's must 678 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,200 Speaker 1: be assumed that we have to be a key phrase 679 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,480 Speaker 1: that I think is going to get used, that's gonna 680 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,799 Speaker 1: get used a lot. Yeah, that like, yeah, we just 681 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: have to assume that not only do they think the 682 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: same thing about this is us, which is that it 683 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: should be used to destroy people's minds, but they're already 684 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: mass producing it. Obviously they are not. Uh, it is 685 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 1: hard to make acid. No one knows how to other 686 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: than sand DAWs. Yet and the Soviet Union as far 687 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: as all evidence suggests, the Soviet Union has no capacity 688 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,640 Speaker 1: for manufacturing LSD at this point. Um, it's going to 689 00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: take years before a US company with c I A 690 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: help will crack the recipe. Um. But yeah, it is 691 00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,840 Speaker 1: worth noting that kind of about it. This is actually 692 00:36:31,840 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: there's not even l s D as far as we 693 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,799 Speaker 1: can tell in the Soviet Union in this period in 694 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:38,600 Speaker 1: the early fifties. I think the first evidence that we 695 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:41,279 Speaker 1: have of acid in the Soviet Union starts in the 696 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 1: early nineteen sixties when Communist Bulgaria starts carrying out a 697 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,560 Speaker 1: series of LSD experiments, this from sixty two to sixty eight, 698 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: and it's again to kind of as evidence that there's 699 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,280 Speaker 1: not really capacity to make this in the Iron Curtain. 700 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,480 Speaker 1: When Bulgaria starts experimenting with acid, they buy it all 701 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: from sand DAWs Sandas Library sends it to them. Um, 702 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 1: sand DAWs is selling LSD under the generic name to 703 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,080 Speaker 1: Delhi sid Um and they spend about three million dollars 704 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 1: giving their new hallucinogen to universities and mental hospitals in 705 00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:16,799 Speaker 1: the early nineteen sixties. So again that's well after the 706 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,080 Speaker 1: period we're up to in the actual and k Ultra story. 707 00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:21,040 Speaker 1: You know, this is all being fucked with by the 708 00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,920 Speaker 1: CIA before pretty much anyone is able to study it. 709 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 1: And I'm gonna quote from a write up in Atlas 710 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:29,960 Speaker 1: Obscurity here. Among the human guinea pigs were doctors, artists, miners, 711 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:33,080 Speaker 1: truck drivers, and even prisoners and mentally ill patients. These 712 00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,880 Speaker 1: research subjects were involved in some hundred and forty trials. 713 00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:38,640 Speaker 1: Their aim for these experiments with LSD was to allow 714 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:42,719 Speaker 1: scientists to understand psychotic disorders like schizophrenia better by using 715 00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:45,879 Speaker 1: the drug to mimic the effects of a naturally occurring psychosis. 716 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: There were some similarities between drug induced psychosis and natural ones, 717 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: but it was easier to do a controlled study when 718 00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 1: causing psychosis through drugs. So in Czechoslovakia, which is also 719 00:37:57,200 --> 00:38:00,320 Speaker 1: a communist state at this period, LSD is per fickly 720 00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 1: illegal and available over the counter. This is like most 721 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,359 Speaker 1: of the nineteen sixties. If you're living in the Czech 722 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,440 Speaker 1: repoor in Czechoslovakia, you can walk down to like the 723 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 1: pharmacy and you can just buy some acid. I have 724 00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:15,720 Speaker 1: to ask when did it become illegal in the United States? 725 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: Because it was a brand new substance banned immediately. No, no, no, 726 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: it's not. It's it's legal for most of the period, 727 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:27,760 Speaker 1: like the hippie period. Um, that's why I thought, Yeah, 728 00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: it is not banned in the United States until nineteen 729 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,920 Speaker 1: sixty eight. Um. Yeah, largely as the result of like 730 00:38:34,040 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: some of the stuff that you know, a bunch of 731 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:39,799 Speaker 1: you know, that's a story for another day. Um, But 732 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 1: for most of the nineteen sixties and Czechoslovakia, you know, 733 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:45,799 Speaker 1: the Bulgarians are doing acid studies with LSD they've bought 734 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 1: from Sandaz. Czechoslovakia is getting acid from Sandas too, And 735 00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:51,920 Speaker 1: rather than it being like a thing that like is 736 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,719 Speaker 1: being secretly used on people behind like the scenes, people 737 00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: are just buying acid from pharmacies in like communist Czechoslovakia. 738 00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:05,879 Speaker 1: Doctors at psychiatric hospitals are taking acid so that they 739 00:39:05,880 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: can understand what it's like to be schizophrenic. I mean, 740 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 1: I don't know how well that actually prepares you to 741 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,920 Speaker 1: treat somebody, but that's how they're using it, right, Like 742 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 1: it's like we've got all these people who are hearing voices, 743 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 1: Let's take this drug so that maybe we can understand 744 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 1: them better. Um. Eventually, a Check pharmaceutical company cracks the 745 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: recipe and millions of doses are produced and given out 746 00:39:26,840 --> 00:39:32,280 Speaker 1: for free across the country. Um Numerous scientists, including Stanislav Groff, 747 00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,120 Speaker 1: took LSD and had experiences in this time that impacted 748 00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 1: their future work. Artists dosed themselves to great effect, as 749 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: this piece from an article in PRIs Kros, which is 750 00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: a Check news site, makes clear. Among them were well 751 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: known painters such as Evo Medic and Jerry Enderley, as 752 00:39:49,280 --> 00:39:52,440 Speaker 1: well as young intellectual singers and students. According to an 753 00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,360 Speaker 1: unverified account, one of them was the current CHECK president 754 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,160 Speaker 1: Milo Simon. A number of years later, Carol Got reluctantly 755 00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: admitted that he just once took LSD in the presence 756 00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:05,640 Speaker 1: of doctors. I returned to my earliest childhood memories buried 757 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,640 Speaker 1: deep within my subconsciousness. Many participants of the psychedelic sessions, 758 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 1: especially artists, recalled their explorations of LSD is unique even 759 00:40:13,560 --> 00:40:18,600 Speaker 1: formative experience. However, others experienced so called bad trips. Suicide 760 00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: soon followed, and several main centers, especially the psychiatric hospital 761 00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,279 Speaker 1: in Satska near Prague, research was carried out on a 762 00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 1: mass scale. According to unconfirmed reports, one of the provincial 763 00:40:28,680 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 1: hospitals carried out tests on children as young as three 764 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: years old who were experiencing mental health issues. In another hospital, 765 00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,640 Speaker 1: experiments were supposedly carried out on prisoners. So everybody does 766 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,319 Speaker 1: fucked up ship with this. Every state does when they 767 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: get access to it. Um although they're not trying to 768 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:49,720 Speaker 1: write like the checks, aren't trying to create a mind 769 00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: control drug. They're just like, maybe this will cure kids 770 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,759 Speaker 1: with illnesses we don't understand. Let's give it to that 771 00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: three year old, which isn't good behavior, but it's not 772 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 1: like malicious, right, it's there's a little here responsible. Yeah. Yeah, 773 00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:09,120 Speaker 1: and there's a level of ignorance around the substance. But 774 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,200 Speaker 1: the way you the way you become knowledgeable is not well, 775 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:15,520 Speaker 1: let's see what happens to mentally all three year olds. Yeah, 776 00:41:15,600 --> 00:41:20,399 Speaker 1: that's certainly not ideal. Yeah, and then we'll know and 777 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,759 Speaker 1: then be ignorant anymore. After all, how else are we 778 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:25,479 Speaker 1: going to find out? Yeah? We we who knows what else? 779 00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,000 Speaker 1: Like I don't know, and they are like, I'd be 780 00:41:29,080 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: really interested. This is an area where I don't know 781 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:33,239 Speaker 1: as much. I'd be really interested in, Like what they 782 00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:39,560 Speaker 1: actually found in terms of how this impacted doctors treating patients. Um, 783 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: but yeah, I don't have great context on that, but 784 00:41:43,000 --> 00:41:45,680 Speaker 1: this is a thing that's going on in this period. 785 00:41:46,160 --> 00:41:50,279 Speaker 1: It does eventually, the check security services they're kind of 786 00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:54,080 Speaker 1: KGB or c I a equivalent, start to do some 787 00:41:54,239 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: early research on whether or not they could weaponize LSD. 788 00:41:57,239 --> 00:41:59,880 Speaker 1: And again this is like a decade after they do 789 00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: US in the United States, so they're like, well behind 790 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 1: the curve here. Um, they do some early kind of experiments, 791 00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:10,480 Speaker 1: there's no record of anything serious. Um, the primary interest, 792 00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,960 Speaker 1: like the State Security Service, gets into this and they 793 00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,239 Speaker 1: kind of say, oh, maybe we can weaponize this. But 794 00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: the thing they actually start doing is using it to 795 00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:20,760 Speaker 1: make a shipload of money because they kind of always 796 00:42:20,760 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 1: have a cash flow problem. This is true of all 797 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,920 Speaker 1: of the communist security services, and they recognize that like, 798 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,080 Speaker 1: oh shit, Americans will Europeans will pay a funkload for 799 00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,160 Speaker 1: LSD just to party. And so for nearly a decade, 800 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: a huge amount of the LSD and like the early 801 00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 1: like right before it gets banned and right after it 802 00:42:39,520 --> 00:42:42,560 Speaker 1: gets banned, a lot of the LSD that gets into 803 00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 1: Western Europe and the United States and kind of the 804 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:48,000 Speaker 1: late nineteen sixties, including the famous Summers of sixty eight 805 00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:51,400 Speaker 1: and sixty nine. Comes from the Check Intelligence Services, and 806 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: they're smuggling acid to the West, not to destroy capitalism, 807 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,719 Speaker 1: but because they they want they need money. It's very 808 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:02,160 Speaker 1: profitable to sell drugs, it turns out. So that's kind 809 00:43:02,200 --> 00:43:05,480 Speaker 1: of a fun story. Um, that's all more than a 810 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,880 Speaker 1: decade in the future from the CIA stuff. But the 811 00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,080 Speaker 1: point is there's never as far as I found, there's 812 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: not ever any real Soviet LSD mind control experiments, And 813 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:17,239 Speaker 1: in the early nineteen fifties, there's no evidence that any 814 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: communist country even saw the drug as having that kind 815 00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:22,480 Speaker 1: of potential. They didn't have a lot of access to it, 816 00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: so it would have been hard for them too. After 817 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:27,960 Speaker 1: a few months of benign experimentation on his friends and colleagues, 818 00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:31,240 Speaker 1: Gottlieb leaves the United States to test LSD on human 819 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,680 Speaker 1: prisoners for the first time. One study later reported quote 820 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,759 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty one, a team of CIA scientists led 821 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: by Dr Gottlieb flew to Tokyo, Japanese suspected of working 822 00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: with the Russians were secretly brought to a location where 823 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,920 Speaker 1: the CIA doctors injected them with a variety of depressants 824 00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: and stimulants. Under relentless questioning, they confessed to working for 825 00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: the Russians. They were taken out into Tokyo Bay, shot 826 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: and dumped overboard. The CIA team flew to Soul in 827 00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,799 Speaker 1: South Korea and repeated the experiment on twenty five North 828 00:43:58,880 --> 00:44:02,520 Speaker 1: Korean prisoners of war or They were asked to announce communism. 829 00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:05,920 Speaker 1: They refused and were executed. In nineteen fifty two, Don'tus 830 00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:08,320 Speaker 1: brought Dr Gottlieb in his team to post war Munich 831 00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: in southern Germany. They set up a base in a 832 00:44:10,520 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: safe house. Throughout the winter of nineteen fifty two to 833 00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 1: fifty three, scores of expendables were brought to the safe house. 834 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: They were given massive amounts of drugs, some of which 835 00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: Frank Olsen had prepared back at Detric which is where 836 00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:23,040 Speaker 1: they're the camp where they're doing this, to see if 837 00:44:23,040 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: their minds could be altered. They were given electro convulsive shocks. 838 00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,280 Speaker 1: Each experiment failed, the expendables were killed and their bodies burned. 839 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: And even what you're describing there, whenever they what are 840 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: effects they got, it seems like it's just plain old 841 00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:43,680 Speaker 1: subjecting them to extreme discomfort, using the stimulants and the 842 00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,840 Speaker 1: presents or whatever to like get their body racing and 843 00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 1: then slowing it down. Like that's just that's just putting 844 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: them through pain. Yes, you can just hit them with 845 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,759 Speaker 1: a stick and do the same thing, like like all 846 00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:57,680 Speaker 1: of their sophisticated talk of a wow, the magic of 847 00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,480 Speaker 1: the human mind and mind control he or it still 848 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 1: seems like it just comes back down to regular brutality 849 00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,520 Speaker 1: and then the people still not cooperating, then you just 850 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,640 Speaker 1: shoot them. That's what's so interesting to be Jason, because 851 00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,600 Speaker 1: they all all they're doing is using LSD to torture 852 00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:15,279 Speaker 1: people in the way that like the Soviets just hit 853 00:45:15,360 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: them with sticks until they do what they want. Right. 854 00:45:17,640 --> 00:45:21,160 Speaker 1: But I think what's happening is Gottlieb he keeps he's 855 00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:25,000 Speaker 1: taking acid. He's tripping constantly throughout this period. I think 856 00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:29,920 Speaker 1: he's having really powerful, like spiritual and emotional experiences on it, 857 00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: and so he's convinced that like there's something more going 858 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,120 Speaker 1: on with this particular substance, and thus there must be 859 00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,719 Speaker 1: a way to like turn it into a tool for 860 00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: this purpose. And one of the things I find most 861 00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:44,359 Speaker 1: interesting about him is he's having. He's this educated man, 862 00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,319 Speaker 1: he's this thoughtful guy who studies religion and spirituality, and 863 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:52,839 Speaker 1: he that he's having like experimenting on expanding his consciousness 864 00:45:52,840 --> 00:45:56,320 Speaker 1: with hallucinogens, and then when he actually uses them on people, 865 00:45:57,000 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: it's the same way you'd use like a fucking razor 866 00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: blade on a person you have tied up or whatever. 867 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: Like there's not he's not being subtled. There's no like 868 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,960 Speaker 1: artifice to it. It's just cruelty. And it seems like 869 00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,360 Speaker 1: they were so eager to get some kind of a 870 00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:16,360 Speaker 1: result that they're just the way you describe. It's like 871 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:18,439 Speaker 1: there was no art to what they were doing. It's 872 00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:23,399 Speaker 1: just the same old I don't know, it's like this 873 00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: is a part of what I found interesting about this, 874 00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,759 Speaker 1: I said in the first episode is separating the reality 875 00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:32,200 Speaker 1: from like the conspiracy stuff, because the conspiracy stuff always 876 00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: the differences between what they thought this could do and 877 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,280 Speaker 1: what it actually did. That's the difference between the conspiracy theories. 878 00:46:40,360 --> 00:46:44,320 Speaker 1: And because in the world of conspiracy Manchurian candidates absolutely exist, 879 00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:48,320 Speaker 1: whereas the reality as they wanted that, there's no doubt 880 00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,400 Speaker 1: they wanted that outcome. It just they couldn't do it, 881 00:46:52,480 --> 00:46:55,799 Speaker 1: and the actual reality on the ground is so much 882 00:46:55,840 --> 00:47:01,879 Speaker 1: more disorganized and stupid and just thuggish than what than 883 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,960 Speaker 1: the the supervillains you imagine. It's almost like you imagine 884 00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:08,200 Speaker 1: a more sophisticated type of when in reality, like a 885 00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,239 Speaker 1: lot of it is just bureaucrats trying to get more 886 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:13,399 Speaker 1: funding to their thing. Um, I don't die. I do 887 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 1: not doubt that some of the people at this point 888 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,560 Speaker 1: knew it didn't work or had lost faith in it. 889 00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:19,320 Speaker 1: But it's like, well, this is where all the funding 890 00:47:19,480 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 1: is going, and you've got to put food on the table, 891 00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:25,399 Speaker 1: and I don't care about the people were killing, so like, yeah, 892 00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,759 Speaker 1: let's keep doing it. And yeah, so these experiments got 893 00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,399 Speaker 1: leave travels around Europe and Asia to just we don't 894 00:47:31,440 --> 00:47:33,719 Speaker 1: know how many black sites. We don't know how many 895 00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: people he doses with LSD and then killed certainly hundreds, 896 00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:41,480 Speaker 1: um potentially over the lifetime of the c I A 897 00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 1: LSD experiments significantly more than that. But we really have 898 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:47,759 Speaker 1: no idea. We do know that so many people were 899 00:47:47,800 --> 00:47:50,200 Speaker 1: being killed at these sites that it created a body 900 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,520 Speaker 1: disposal problem, even at the black sites that had been 901 00:47:53,560 --> 00:47:56,880 Speaker 1: built as death camps. Stephen Kinzer quotes from an American 902 00:47:56,920 --> 00:48:00,040 Speaker 1: translator at one of these places, camp King, which I 903 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:03,080 Speaker 1: believe is in Germany. Um. And she writes this home 904 00:48:03,120 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 1: in a letter in nineteen fifty two, arrived back in 905 00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,200 Speaker 1: Frankfurt from Paris son morning and time to spend all 906 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:12,439 Speaker 1: day at the Oberseel swimming pool, acquiring a nice tan. 907 00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: They dragged a dead man out of the pool at 908 00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,759 Speaker 1: tin Am, like this is the pool that they have 909 00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:21,240 Speaker 1: at like the facility, and there's like, yeah, the corpses 910 00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 1: are just kind of like showing up places, um, because 911 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,560 Speaker 1: they're they're just creating so many of them. Gottlieb seems 912 00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,920 Speaker 1: to have I don't know, I don't I don't really, 913 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,720 Speaker 1: he's a fascinating character. I don't really have a great 914 00:48:33,880 --> 00:48:36,759 Speaker 1: concept of what's going on in his head because he's 915 00:48:36,800 --> 00:48:39,520 Speaker 1: like every day after doing this, he goes home and 916 00:48:39,560 --> 00:48:42,000 Speaker 1: he milks his goats and he hangs out with his 917 00:48:42,040 --> 00:48:45,400 Speaker 1: wife and kids, and he's this kind of like kindly 918 00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,319 Speaker 1: proto hippie nerd who's just very interested in psychedelics. Um. Well, 919 00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: this is the thing, because when you told his story 920 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:56,000 Speaker 1: in the last episode, like his early his upbringing, there's 921 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,080 Speaker 1: a key part of the story that is missing because 922 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:01,440 Speaker 1: we describe why, Well, he was young, he went off 923 00:49:01,440 --> 00:49:03,520 Speaker 1: to school, he married a preacher's daughter, you know, he 924 00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:05,560 Speaker 1: was kind of a hippie, you know. And then and 925 00:49:05,600 --> 00:49:07,319 Speaker 1: then he was asked to be a part of this 926 00:49:07,400 --> 00:49:10,320 Speaker 1: program because it's like, well, he's interested in these drugs 927 00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 1: and in these chemicals. And then immediately it's like, okay, 928 00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,239 Speaker 1: well we we invited you him to go torture this 929 00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:21,520 Speaker 1: guy that we were torturing with with and trying to 930 00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:23,399 Speaker 1: use this It's like, well, and not, hold on, did 931 00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,960 Speaker 1: did he have any kind of qualms about that? The 932 00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:31,680 Speaker 1: transition from normal guy who's curious about these chemicals too, 933 00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:35,680 Speaker 1: being at a black site and it's clear what's going on, 934 00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:38,800 Speaker 1: Like the reality of it was certainly not hidden from him, 935 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:42,399 Speaker 1: and you are torturing another human being who it may 936 00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: not be guilty of anything really and it's like, okay, 937 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,400 Speaker 1: you did he object? Was he afraid? Did he? The way? 938 00:49:50,600 --> 00:49:53,400 Speaker 1: So Stephen Kinzer, who writes Poisoner in Chief, which is 939 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:55,359 Speaker 1: about Gottlieb, is the guy who I think has done 940 00:49:55,400 --> 00:49:58,640 Speaker 1: the most detailed work up on Sydney as a man. 941 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:02,800 Speaker 1: His angle on it, the way he kind of explains 942 00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:06,319 Speaker 1: it is that Gottlieb is is a patriot. He is 943 00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,160 Speaker 1: very sore about the fact that he missed out on 944 00:50:09,280 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: participating in World War Two, and he has been convinced 945 00:50:12,800 --> 00:50:16,040 Speaker 1: by Dullus and other people in the agency that this 946 00:50:16,120 --> 00:50:18,400 Speaker 1: is a life or death struggle with the Soviet Union 947 00:50:18,400 --> 00:50:20,600 Speaker 1: and that only the most like they have to try this. 948 00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:22,719 Speaker 1: They have to find this out. This is the most 949 00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:26,240 Speaker 1: critical weapon that could possibly exist, and if the Soviets 950 00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:27,719 Speaker 1: have developed it, then it could be the end of 951 00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:30,399 Speaker 1: the world. Right, they could destroy the entire country if 952 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:32,400 Speaker 1: they get people in the right positions. So we have 953 00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,800 Speaker 1: to know how to That's that's what Kinser says. Now 954 00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,640 Speaker 1: Kinser is working from information after the fact. He doesn't 955 00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:43,279 Speaker 1: know Gotlieb. I don't to an extent. The man is unknowable, right, 956 00:50:43,360 --> 00:50:46,439 Speaker 1: just like everybody. I don't actually know if I think 957 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,759 Speaker 1: that's what's going on. If I think maybe for all 958 00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 1: of his kindly exterior Gottlieb is like a fucking serial killer, 959 00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:56,759 Speaker 1: because that there's I could see that when you look 960 00:50:56,800 --> 00:50:58,919 Speaker 1: at some of the stuff this guy does, I could 961 00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,120 Speaker 1: see there being an element of just sort of like 962 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,200 Speaker 1: joy and hurting people, and maybe we're just missing it. 963 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: Because he didn't talk about it to people, right, And 964 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,280 Speaker 1: maybe Kinzer is trying to fill in a less frightening 965 00:51:09,360 --> 00:51:11,320 Speaker 1: thing than just a man who likes to hurt people 966 00:51:11,600 --> 00:51:13,600 Speaker 1: and gets a job at the CIA where he gets 967 00:51:13,640 --> 00:51:16,080 Speaker 1: to do it. Kind of whatever is going on in 968 00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,560 Speaker 1: his head what he's doing is often like serial killer ship. 969 00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: For an example, in late nineteen fifty two, Project Artichoke 970 00:51:24,200 --> 00:51:26,719 Speaker 1: researchers decided to conduct a test into whether or not 971 00:51:26,800 --> 00:51:31,200 Speaker 1: people with hepatitis are more vulnerable to lsd UM they are. Apparently, 972 00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:33,360 Speaker 1: it's like a thing if you have hepatitis or have 973 00:51:33,400 --> 00:51:36,920 Speaker 1: had it recently, acid will can have like potentially dangerously 974 00:51:37,000 --> 00:51:40,880 Speaker 1: high effect on you. Um Gottlieb has his people. He 975 00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:43,520 Speaker 1: sets up the CIA, has a deal with the American 976 00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:46,719 Speaker 1: Hospital in Paris, and so he has agents waiting there 977 00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,480 Speaker 1: as patients come in for like the right person to dose. 978 00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,239 Speaker 1: This turns out to be Stanley Glickman. Now, Glickman is 979 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:56,120 Speaker 1: an American artist. He'd won prizes for his work and 980 00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,560 Speaker 1: had gotten to go to a fancy art academy in Paris. 981 00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 1: So he's like a young man who was just getting 982 00:52:01,080 --> 00:52:04,080 Speaker 1: started in the world. He's gifted, he's gotten this like 983 00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:07,520 Speaker 1: incredible opportunity to study in Paris. Life is going good, 984 00:52:07,960 --> 00:52:10,680 Speaker 1: and then this happens. I'm gonna quote next from Kinser's 985 00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:15,200 Speaker 1: book quote. His studio was nearly select, but after a 986 00:52:15,200 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: while he came to prefer another, cafe Le Dome, just 987 00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,920 Speaker 1: across the Boulevard du Montparnesse. One evening in October nineteen 988 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 1: fifty two, he was drinking coffee there when an acquaintance 989 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,360 Speaker 1: appeared and invited him over to lay Select. Reluctantly, he agreed. 990 00:52:28,640 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: At lay Select, the two joined a group of Americans 991 00:52:31,040 --> 00:52:33,360 Speaker 1: whose conservative dress set them apart from the rest of 992 00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:36,920 Speaker 1: the crowd. Talk turned to politics and grew heated. Glickmant 993 00:52:37,040 --> 00:52:39,040 Speaker 1: rose to leave, but one of the men insisted on 994 00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:41,120 Speaker 1: buying him a last drink to show there were no 995 00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:44,480 Speaker 1: hard feelings. Glickman said he'd have a glass of chartrouss 996 00:52:44,480 --> 00:52:47,160 Speaker 1: an herbal liqueur. Rather than call the waiter. The man 997 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:50,040 Speaker 1: walked to the bar, ordered the chartrous himself, and carried 998 00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,400 Speaker 1: it back to their table. He walked with a limp, 999 00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,439 Speaker 1: Glickman later recalled the next few minutes were the last 1000 00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:58,600 Speaker 1: of Glickman's productive life. After taking a few SIPs from 1001 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,760 Speaker 1: his drink. He began to feel what he later called 1002 00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,399 Speaker 1: a lengthening of distance and a distortion of perception. Soon 1003 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:08,120 Speaker 1: he was hallucinating. Others at the table leaned in fascinated. 1004 00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,920 Speaker 1: One told Glickman he could perform miracles. Finally, overwhelmed by 1005 00:53:11,920 --> 00:53:14,400 Speaker 1: panic and fearing that he had been poisoned, he jumped 1006 00:53:14,480 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: up and fled. And for Glickman, the hallucinations don't stop right, 1007 00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:22,360 Speaker 1: he loses his mind. He goes running into the street. 1008 00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,400 Speaker 1: He's there for hours. He gets taken by an ambulance, 1009 00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,760 Speaker 1: eventually back to the American hospital who has this secret 1010 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,520 Speaker 1: working relationship with the CIA. And at the American hospitals, 1011 00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,399 Speaker 1: he gets taken in hallucinating and freaking out. They dose 1012 00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,520 Speaker 1: him with sedatives. They electrocute him repeatedly, like they give 1013 00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:42,160 Speaker 1: him electroshock therapy dozens and dozens of times, and they 1014 00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:46,160 Speaker 1: dose him with more LSD. They discharge him eventually, but 1015 00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,240 Speaker 1: he never recovers like because he like at no point 1016 00:53:49,280 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: in his life does he recover. He eventually gets like 1017 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,080 Speaker 1: taken back home and he spends the rest of his 1018 00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:58,200 Speaker 1: days like hiding alone in an apartment owned by his parents. 1019 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,240 Speaker 1: He can only be social like with dogs. He can't 1020 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:03,879 Speaker 1: really be around people ever. Again, he's in a seat, 1021 00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: He's got a girlfriend, they're about to get married. He 1022 00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,239 Speaker 1: leaves her, and he never paints or read books or 1023 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:12,520 Speaker 1: has reads books or has a romantic relationship. Again, like 1024 00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:16,520 Speaker 1: his mind is destroyed by this, Like he is ended 1025 00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,960 Speaker 1: as a human being, is effectively because of what gets 1026 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:22,120 Speaker 1: done to him. And kind of based on the reports, 1027 00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:25,320 Speaker 1: it's probably Gottlieb who puts the fucking acid in his chartreuse. 1028 00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,359 Speaker 1: And the thing is, we're probably going to get into it, 1029 00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:34,520 Speaker 1: Like do they regard this as a result in their experiment, 1030 00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,880 Speaker 1: Like see, this is proof that you can Yeah, because 1031 00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:40,080 Speaker 1: all it proves is that if you do enough damage 1032 00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:43,600 Speaker 1: to somebody's brain, you can ruin their wife. Like again, 1033 00:54:43,960 --> 00:54:47,120 Speaker 1: if you if you people, yeah you bashed them in 1034 00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:49,040 Speaker 1: the head with a baseball bat, you can also prove 1035 00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:51,120 Speaker 1: this like oh yeah, this guy never worked another day 1036 00:54:51,120 --> 00:54:53,480 Speaker 1: in his life. But it works. It's like you haven't 1037 00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:59,320 Speaker 1: discovered anything. You've just discovered that if you treat someone horrible, 1038 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:03,600 Speaker 1: you can you can permanently mess them up. Yeah. I 1039 00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,280 Speaker 1: think the thing they take out of this is that like, oh, yes, 1040 00:55:06,320 --> 00:55:09,799 Speaker 1: people who have hepatitis are more vulnerable to LSD, but 1041 00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:12,400 Speaker 1: also like, well, but you also like in terms of 1042 00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:14,920 Speaker 1: like it being a bad study, well, you also like 1043 00:55:15,080 --> 00:55:18,719 Speaker 1: forced him into like a hospital room and electrocuted him 1044 00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:21,640 Speaker 1: and sedated him and gave him more acid, So you 1045 00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,480 Speaker 1: don't actually know how much of his reaction was due 1046 00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:26,799 Speaker 1: to the LSD and the hepatitis, how much of it 1047 00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:28,480 Speaker 1: was due to the electro shock, how much of it 1048 00:55:28,520 --> 00:55:31,040 Speaker 1: was due to the sedative. Like you've ruined your own 1049 00:55:31,120 --> 00:55:35,000 Speaker 1: experimental study by conducting it so shodily, Like just as 1050 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:37,399 Speaker 1: if you're if you were a soulless monster who thinks 1051 00:55:37,440 --> 00:55:39,759 Speaker 1: it's okay to test this on people, and you care 1052 00:55:39,800 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: about the science deeply, you still wouldn't do it this way. 1053 00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,200 Speaker 1: Like maybe you'd kidnaped this guy and give him acid 1054 00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:47,959 Speaker 1: and see what would happen, but you wouldn't just start 1055 00:55:48,000 --> 00:55:51,120 Speaker 1: adding random shit. It's kind of similar to people that 1056 00:55:51,200 --> 00:55:54,000 Speaker 1: kind of have this really high idea of what the 1057 00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 1: Nazi scientists accomplished because like, well they didn't have to 1058 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,440 Speaker 1: worry about ethics to had all these these human subjects. 1059 00:56:00,000 --> 00:56:05,279 Speaker 1: How much of their science was just pure trash. It's yeah, 1060 00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:08,120 Speaker 1: their methods, everything about how their record results like you 1061 00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,360 Speaker 1: look at how sloppy this is in terms of getting 1062 00:56:10,360 --> 00:56:13,759 Speaker 1: any kind of a result. There's no control group, Like 1063 00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:18,640 Speaker 1: everything about it is these people just they're bad scientists, 1064 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:20,319 Speaker 1: Like this is not the way you find out what 1065 00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:23,360 Speaker 1: they're trying to find out. And that's that's the degree 1066 00:56:23,640 --> 00:56:26,359 Speaker 1: in terms of like what's going on with Gottlieb. That's 1067 00:56:26,360 --> 00:56:27,960 Speaker 1: the part of me that's like maybe he is just 1068 00:56:28,080 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 1: kind of like a serial killer, Like I don't know, 1069 00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:33,800 Speaker 1: maybe that's maybe he just this is what he does 1070 00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,879 Speaker 1: to I don't get off in whatever way, and then 1071 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:38,840 Speaker 1: he's able to go home and be this like normal 1072 00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,200 Speaker 1: hippie dad. But he's just got this like deep cruelty 1073 00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:44,520 Speaker 1: in him that he needs to in the same way 1074 00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,279 Speaker 1: that like you have all these people who were like 1075 00:56:46,360 --> 00:56:49,080 Speaker 1: murdering folks their entire lives and they're married and they 1076 00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:52,640 Speaker 1: have kids and stuff like we have. There are examples 1077 00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,560 Speaker 1: like this. There's like John Wayne Gacy, right, Gaycy I 1078 00:56:54,600 --> 00:56:57,480 Speaker 1: think is one of the ones who had like a family. Um, 1079 00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,920 Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong, but there's there's like examples of serial 1080 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,719 Speaker 1: killers everybody, like they're fairly prominent where there it's like, well, 1081 00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,680 Speaker 1: he was just a normal man. We all thought he 1082 00:57:06,760 --> 00:57:08,400 Speaker 1: was just this you know, he had a wife and 1083 00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:10,160 Speaker 1: he had kids, and everyone just assumed he was a 1084 00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:13,960 Speaker 1: member of the community. Um, maybe that's what got leave 1085 00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:18,440 Speaker 1: is you know, that's the actually the less cynical interpretation, 1086 00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:23,000 Speaker 1: because the more cynical interpretation, is it, any is a 1087 00:57:23,040 --> 00:57:25,520 Speaker 1: lot of people if you gave them a job and 1088 00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,680 Speaker 1: it's like your boss just tells you to do it, 1089 00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:29,680 Speaker 1: you just do it because your boss told you to 1090 00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:33,000 Speaker 1: do it, and it's otherwise I'll get fired, and this 1091 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:35,960 Speaker 1: is my career on the line, and so that if that, 1092 00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:38,720 Speaker 1: you know that that's part of the lesson the Holocaust, 1093 00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,360 Speaker 1: is it. It didn't take it didn't take millions of 1094 00:57:41,400 --> 00:57:43,880 Speaker 1: serial killers. It just took a lot of bureaucrats who 1095 00:57:43,960 --> 00:57:46,200 Speaker 1: kind of like, what else am I gonna do? It's 1096 00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, they is my job. This is what I 1097 00:57:50,200 --> 00:57:52,439 Speaker 1: was told to guard this building and not let anybody out, 1098 00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:54,600 Speaker 1: Like that's that that was my job? What you want 1099 00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,800 Speaker 1: me to do? Definitely, I mean obviously, like that's most 1100 00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,280 Speaker 1: of the CIA, right, that's most of the m k 1101 00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,840 Speaker 1: Ultra people. Gottlieb there is that like that particular story 1102 00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,120 Speaker 1: where he's just like he's looking at a bar for 1103 00:58:07,160 --> 00:58:10,120 Speaker 1: a young kid. He can drug and he does it himself. 1104 00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: That's the thing that like makes me, I don't know, 1105 00:58:13,520 --> 00:58:17,520 Speaker 1: I know we're getting into more satisfying personal curiosity, but no. 1106 00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:20,760 Speaker 1: But I think that's what makes a story interesting because again, 1107 00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:26,919 Speaker 1: the the conspiracy stuff makes certain assumptions about the type 1108 00:58:26,920 --> 00:58:29,480 Speaker 1: of people that work at the CIA, and I think 1109 00:58:29,520 --> 00:58:31,720 Speaker 1: it almost imagines him as a different kind of human 1110 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:35,800 Speaker 1: being versus so much of this is people just screwing 1111 00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:38,800 Speaker 1: around like this here, like just dosing this the stranger 1112 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:41,520 Speaker 1: to see what happens like this is just this is 1113 00:58:41,560 --> 00:58:43,760 Speaker 1: reaching stage where you're just screwing around, like there's it's 1114 00:58:43,800 --> 00:58:46,960 Speaker 1: just your there's not enough oversight. There's nobody checking your method, 1115 00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,640 Speaker 1: there's nobody making your report every single thing you do 1116 00:58:50,080 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: because it's all secrets. So you know, um yeah, and 1117 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,040 Speaker 1: I hate that it as mundane as that it's like, well, 1118 00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,320 Speaker 1: he wasn't reporting to anybody, so it's like, well why 1119 00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:00,280 Speaker 1: not see what happens? You know, I think you you 1120 00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:03,040 Speaker 1: get so immersed in this stuff where anything can become 1121 00:59:03,120 --> 00:59:07,520 Speaker 1: normal if that's just like your day to day job. Yeah, 1122 00:59:07,560 --> 00:59:11,560 Speaker 1: I mean that is it's to an extent and unknowable question. 1123 00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:14,680 Speaker 1: But yeah, I but I don't know. Well, well, we'll 1124 00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:18,320 Speaker 1: come back around to this as we get through, um 1125 00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,320 Speaker 1: like more of this story and you get to know 1126 00:59:20,400 --> 00:59:23,400 Speaker 1: a little bit more about Sydney Gottlieb. But kind of 1127 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:26,720 Speaker 1: right around this time, as Gottlieb is dosing Glickman and 1128 00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,320 Speaker 1: destroying his life, he convinces his boss, Alan Dullis to 1129 00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:33,480 Speaker 1: merge all the different government teams working on truth serum 1130 00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,560 Speaker 1: and mind control research together. Now, most of what this 1131 00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:39,120 Speaker 1: means is they're bringing the Army Chemical Corps, who is 1132 00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,360 Speaker 1: still doing separate research into stuff like this, and the 1133 00:59:42,440 --> 00:59:46,240 Speaker 1: CIA teams under one roof. In November of nineteen fifty two, 1134 00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: a month after Gottlieb drugs Stanley Glickman, Dwight D. Eisenhower 1135 00:59:50,120 --> 00:59:53,080 Speaker 1: wins the presidency. In a nineteen fifty three he makes 1136 00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,320 Speaker 1: Alan Dullis the new head of the CIA. So, now 1137 00:59:57,920 --> 00:59:59,600 Speaker 1: this is the kind of ship Sydney has been able 1138 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,680 Speaker 1: to get up too, with his patron being the number 1139 01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:04,680 Speaker 1: two man at the CIA. Now is buddies running things, 1140 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,200 Speaker 1: and stuff's gonna go off the rails. But you know 1141 01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:12,720 Speaker 1: what else goes off the rails? Jason capitalism, I don't. 1142 01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:15,800 Speaker 1: I mean, yes at some point, um, but but but 1143 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:20,160 Speaker 1: probably not while we're all alive. Um. So sit back 1144 01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:25,400 Speaker 1: and enjoy capitalism and don't think about how it ties 1145 01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:28,880 Speaker 1: into what these guys were defending by dosing random people 1146 01:00:29,160 --> 01:00:41,760 Speaker 1: in Paris. Ah, we're back, okay. So Jason Alan Dullis 1147 01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,360 Speaker 1: is now running the CIA. Dwight D. Eisenhower is the president. 1148 01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:49,360 Speaker 1: John Foster Dulas is the Secretary of State, and the 1149 01:00:49,440 --> 01:00:52,120 Speaker 1: agency gets given the go ahead to open more black 1150 01:00:52,200 --> 01:00:55,160 Speaker 1: sites around the world. At this point, Gottlieb is also 1151 01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:57,640 Speaker 1: able to expand the scope of his mind control research, 1152 01:00:57,680 --> 01:00:59,920 Speaker 1: and for the first time, he brings an outside science 1153 01:00:59,880 --> 01:01:04,480 Speaker 1: to conduct torture experiments. One of these scientists is Paul 1154 01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,840 Speaker 1: Hook of the New York Psychiatric Institute. Gottlieb wanted him 1155 01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 1: to inject a patient with mescalin to see what would happen. 1156 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,360 Speaker 1: Hawk chose Harold Blower. Now. Blower was depressed after a 1157 01:01:15,360 --> 01:01:17,760 Speaker 1: divorce and he had gone to Hawk for help. Hawk 1158 01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:21,520 Speaker 1: is a psychiatrist. Blower is a sad man who in 1159 01:01:21,560 --> 01:01:23,520 Speaker 1: the fifties is like, you know what, I'm gonna get 1160 01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:26,160 Speaker 1: over the macho bullshit that like my culture teaches me 1161 01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:28,080 Speaker 1: about seeking help, and I'm going to go to a 1162 01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:31,800 Speaker 1: psychiatrist to deal with my divorce. Um. And as a 1163 01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 1: reward for being that self aware and responsible and taking 1164 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:39,920 Speaker 1: control of his mental health, Hawk's assistant and secretly injects 1165 01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:44,040 Speaker 1: Blower with concentrated mescalin, telling him it's depression medicine. He 1166 01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,800 Speaker 1: does this five more times over the course of several weeks, 1167 01:01:46,840 --> 01:01:50,840 Speaker 1: and and Blower complains, right, he's he's hallucinating. He's having 1168 01:01:51,000 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: nightmarish hallucinations every time they give this depression treatment to him. 1169 01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:57,800 Speaker 1: And he's like, I want to stop. This is not 1170 01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:02,080 Speaker 1: helping me being sad about my wife leaving. Um, my 1171 01:02:02,160 --> 01:02:06,480 Speaker 1: depression has not been cured by these random, horrible hallucinations. Um, 1172 01:02:06,560 --> 01:02:09,640 Speaker 1: can we please stop? And Hawk basically tells him, you 1173 01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,160 Speaker 1: can't quit the treatment midstream. You have to finish the 1174 01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:14,720 Speaker 1: course of medications otherwise it will be really bad for you. 1175 01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,880 Speaker 1: So let's just let's just keep taking this ship. In 1176 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:21,400 Speaker 1: January of nineteen fifty three, just days after Dwight Eisenhower 1177 01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,520 Speaker 1: is sworn in, Hawk was injected with a dose fourteen 1178 01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,720 Speaker 1: times higher than what he'd been given previously. He began 1179 01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:29,920 Speaker 1: to have seizures. He had a heart attack, and he 1180 01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:33,640 Speaker 1: was pronounced dead about three hours after the injection. Hawk 1181 01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:36,320 Speaker 1: is one of two Americans who are known to have 1182 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:39,600 Speaker 1: died from the n kal dr experiments. Right, Um, as 1183 01:02:39,640 --> 01:02:42,080 Speaker 1: we'll get too later. Most of the there's a lot 1184 01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:45,360 Speaker 1: of data about this that's lost. But howk is one 1185 01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,440 Speaker 1: of the two guys that we know for certain was 1186 01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,360 Speaker 1: killed as a result of these experiments. Um one of 1187 01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:54,480 Speaker 1: doctor or not Hook Blower, one of doctor Hawk's medical 1188 01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:57,880 Speaker 1: assistants who had been giving Blower them. Escalin later said, quote, 1189 01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,520 Speaker 1: we didn't know if it was dog piss or what 1190 01:03:00,560 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 1: it was that we were giving him. So maybe these 1191 01:03:05,600 --> 01:03:08,680 Speaker 1: people were not Maybe there's some medical ethics problems here too, 1192 01:03:10,520 --> 01:03:16,360 Speaker 1: Jesus Christ. Yeah, And so okay, if you had to 1193 01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:21,200 Speaker 1: put money on all right, there's two people we know died. 1194 01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:25,680 Speaker 1: If you just had to put down a bet as 1195 01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:28,440 Speaker 1: to whether or not there were at least one or 1196 01:03:28,480 --> 01:03:30,919 Speaker 1: two more people that we maybe don't know about, would 1197 01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,360 Speaker 1: you take that bet or would you? Yeah? I mean, 1198 01:03:35,720 --> 01:03:38,280 Speaker 1: I don't want to be irresponsible here and the information 1199 01:03:38,280 --> 01:03:42,800 Speaker 1: out there, but it just seems it feels implausible. Yeah, 1200 01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,040 Speaker 1: seeing how fast and loose they were playing. I don't know. 1201 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,000 Speaker 1: We will never know because they destroy much of the evidence. 1202 01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:53,640 Speaker 1: Well we'll we'll explain that later. But like, I don't 1203 01:03:53,680 --> 01:03:55,840 Speaker 1: I don't see how the the death toll. And we're 1204 01:03:55,840 --> 01:03:58,240 Speaker 1: talking obviously they've been killing people for a long time. 1205 01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,000 Speaker 1: But those people are yeah, Americans who die kind of 1206 01:04:02,080 --> 01:04:05,600 Speaker 1: accidentally as a result of experiments. I would be shocked 1207 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:08,960 Speaker 1: if it weren't dozens, and it might be more like 1208 01:04:09,120 --> 01:04:10,920 Speaker 1: but we'll but we'll never know, right, And so it's 1209 01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:12,440 Speaker 1: sometimes it's hard to tell because like a lot of 1210 01:04:12,440 --> 01:04:15,400 Speaker 1: people have lifelong problems as a result of this and 1211 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:19,040 Speaker 1: then eventually die as the result of like and maybe like, 1212 01:04:19,200 --> 01:04:21,560 Speaker 1: how does the LSD impact the fact that they die 1213 01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:23,840 Speaker 1: very young of a heart disease or does it make 1214 01:04:23,880 --> 01:04:27,160 Speaker 1: them take other substances that contribute to their right? This 1215 01:04:27,240 --> 01:04:30,120 Speaker 1: is all messier. It's usually not as clear as it 1216 01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,640 Speaker 1: is with blour, where he just gets injected with a 1217 01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:37,040 Speaker 1: massive dose of something and has a heart attack. Um, 1218 01:04:37,080 --> 01:04:41,000 Speaker 1: but yeah, it's it's heart. It's impossible to say exactly, 1219 01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:44,760 Speaker 1: but my my, if I'm taking that, bet, I feel 1220 01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:49,080 Speaker 1: pretty good about my adds. Um, now are they calling? 1221 01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:52,480 Speaker 1: Is this still operating under Artichoke? Or have they started 1222 01:04:52,480 --> 01:04:55,200 Speaker 1: calling it m kale. It's it's just about to be 1223 01:04:55,400 --> 01:04:59,320 Speaker 1: m kale. So in April of nineteen fifty three, again, 1224 01:04:59,360 --> 01:05:01,440 Speaker 1: everything we've talked about has happened over about a four 1225 01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:03,760 Speaker 1: year period, right, this is not a long span of 1226 01:05:03,800 --> 01:05:06,880 Speaker 1: time that's past. In April of nineteen fifty three, Alan 1227 01:05:06,960 --> 01:05:09,280 Speaker 1: Dulas gives that big speech at Princeton where he says 1228 01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,640 Speaker 1: that communist spies are about to play the American mind 1229 01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:15,400 Speaker 1: like a phonograph. A few days later, on April nineteen 1230 01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:19,400 Speaker 1: fifty three, he like officially bundles up all of the 1231 01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:22,280 Speaker 1: research the US government is going doing into mind control, 1232 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:26,440 Speaker 1: and he called launches mk Ultra at Gottlieb's insistence as 1233 01:05:26,480 --> 01:05:30,680 Speaker 1: the final iteration of the secret mind control research project. Now, 1234 01:05:30,800 --> 01:05:33,360 Speaker 1: under the terms of the agreement that Gottlieb had made 1235 01:05:33,400 --> 01:05:36,760 Speaker 1: with Dullus, mk Ultra is granted six percent of the 1236 01:05:36,920 --> 01:05:41,320 Speaker 1: entire CIA operating budget. There are no no requirements for 1237 01:05:41,360 --> 01:05:45,320 Speaker 1: accounting and no oversight. Alan Dulls is not told what 1238 01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,680 Speaker 1: they're doing. The President of the United States does not 1239 01:05:48,800 --> 01:05:52,440 Speaker 1: know about this program in anything but the broadest terms. 1240 01:05:52,480 --> 01:05:54,240 Speaker 1: Like every now and then someone will be like, you know, 1241 01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:57,240 Speaker 1: we're we're continuing our work on like mind control research 1242 01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,800 Speaker 1: because the Soviets have something right, but like um, no 1243 01:06:00,840 --> 01:06:03,640 Speaker 1: one is being looped in. Gottlieb has six percent of 1244 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:07,400 Speaker 1: the CIA budget and zero oversight. And again we can 1245 01:06:07,440 --> 01:06:12,560 Speaker 1: criticize it in you know, in hindsight, but hindsight at 1246 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,600 Speaker 1: the time, they had no way of knowing that I 1247 01:06:15,680 --> 01:06:18,919 Speaker 1: could turn into a carnival of horror. Yeah, so many 1248 01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,720 Speaker 1: things go well when you give a man effectively a 1249 01:06:21,760 --> 01:06:25,040 Speaker 1: license to kill in drug whoever he wants, millions of 1250 01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:28,200 Speaker 1: dollars and say, no one's watching him? Who himself is 1251 01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:31,000 Speaker 1: tripping balls much of the day? Who is? Who is? Yeah, 1252 01:06:31,040 --> 01:06:34,760 Speaker 1: it must be said, is hallucinating an unknown but significant 1253 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:38,640 Speaker 1: percentage of the time. Now, maybe this is not something 1254 01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:41,640 Speaker 1: that made into the records. Did they know that mk 1255 01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:46,680 Speaker 1: Ultra was an awesome name for a project. Yes, it 1256 01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:50,560 Speaker 1: was randomly generated. They actually kind of break their own 1257 01:06:50,640 --> 01:06:53,400 Speaker 1: rules to call it him k Ultra. So with cryptonym, 1258 01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,680 Speaker 1: the MK part is normal, right, that just means it's 1259 01:06:55,680 --> 01:06:59,680 Speaker 1: part of the technical division. The second part of the name, 1260 01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,000 Speaker 1: like we had M k Naomi earlier, it's supposed to 1261 01:07:02,040 --> 01:07:05,600 Speaker 1: be completely random because if somebody, if if some spy 1262 01:07:05,640 --> 01:07:08,680 Speaker 1: like leaks a document to the Soviets that mentions MK ultra. 1263 01:07:09,040 --> 01:07:10,440 Speaker 1: You don't want anyone to be able to tell what 1264 01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:13,960 Speaker 1: it is, Gottly make sure it's called ultra because it's 1265 01:07:14,000 --> 01:07:17,200 Speaker 1: the most secret thing in the US government, right, Like 1266 01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,200 Speaker 1: that's why he calls it that because he and I 1267 01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,360 Speaker 1: think it's just because he thinks it's cool that that's 1268 01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:24,240 Speaker 1: his project. Like the most secret thing anyone's doing is 1269 01:07:24,280 --> 01:07:26,960 Speaker 1: his project, and so it's it's ultra. Yeah. If you 1270 01:07:27,040 --> 01:07:30,040 Speaker 1: sneak into an office at the Pentagon or somewhere and 1271 01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,240 Speaker 1: you see a folder called Project Artichoke, you're probably not 1272 01:07:33,320 --> 01:07:36,080 Speaker 1: even going to open it, right If you stumble across 1273 01:07:36,080 --> 01:07:40,560 Speaker 1: a big fat red folder marked MK ultra, Oh yeah, absolutely, 1274 01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:43,960 Speaker 1: you're stealing that thing. It's like, this is either aliens 1275 01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:47,680 Speaker 1: or to doomsday weapon, Like you would almost be disappointed 1276 01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,000 Speaker 1: at what it actually is. Yeah, it's but it's certainly 1277 01:07:51,080 --> 01:07:53,520 Speaker 1: like it is actually a pretty bad cryptonym because it 1278 01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,600 Speaker 1: immediately you're like, well, this has to be something pretty 1279 01:07:55,640 --> 01:08:01,000 Speaker 1: fucking serious, right Yeah. Um, So Adney Gottlieb gets his 1280 01:08:01,000 --> 01:08:03,600 Speaker 1: blank check and his license to do whatever, and over 1281 01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,960 Speaker 1: the next decade he makes full use of the resources 1282 01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,439 Speaker 1: that have been made available to him under mk ULTRA, 1283 01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:11,600 Speaker 1: and increasing share of the workload gets farmed out to 1284 01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:15,800 Speaker 1: independent scientists. One of these is Dr Ewen Cameron, a 1285 01:08:15,800 --> 01:08:20,080 Speaker 1: former head of the American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations as 1286 01:08:20,080 --> 01:08:23,800 Speaker 1: well as the World Psychiatric Association. Cameron had been born 1287 01:08:23,840 --> 01:08:26,439 Speaker 1: in Scotland, but he worked mostly in Canada. He was 1288 01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,679 Speaker 1: one of the top couple of psychiatrists on the planet 1289 01:08:29,720 --> 01:08:32,679 Speaker 1: in the mid nineteen fifties. Again, he is the former 1290 01:08:32,680 --> 01:08:36,439 Speaker 1: head of the American and Canadian Psychiatric Associations. He is like, 1291 01:08:37,960 --> 01:08:40,759 Speaker 1: you don't get much more prestigious than that in this period. 1292 01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:42,680 Speaker 1: And I want to quote now to talk about what 1293 01:08:42,720 --> 01:08:44,639 Speaker 1: this motherfucker did. I want to quote from a write 1294 01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:50,400 Speaker 1: up from the CBCS long form series Brainwashed. Quote. Three 1295 01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,160 Speaker 1: years after the CIA launched mk ultra IF, they approached 1296 01:08:53,200 --> 01:08:56,400 Speaker 1: Cameron through the Society for the Investigation of Human Ecology, 1297 01:08:56,520 --> 01:08:59,280 Speaker 1: a research foundation and one of their front organizations through 1298 01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:01,840 Speaker 1: which they funneled money. They encouraged him to apply for 1299 01:09:01,880 --> 01:09:04,759 Speaker 1: a grant, which he did and quickly received. From January 1300 01:09:04,880 --> 01:09:07,799 Speaker 1: nineteen fifty seven to September of nineteen sixty, the CIA 1301 01:09:07,920 --> 01:09:11,800 Speaker 1: gave Cameron sixty dollars US equivalent to slightly more than 1302 01:09:11,840 --> 01:09:15,880 Speaker 1: half a million today. Now, in nineteen fifty five, a 1303 01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:18,680 Speaker 1: Canadian woman named Esther Schreier marries the love of her 1304 01:09:18,720 --> 01:09:21,080 Speaker 1: life after a blind date. The two of them have 1305 01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:23,400 Speaker 1: a child three years later, but the baby dies of 1306 01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:27,560 Speaker 1: a staff infection a three weeks old. Esther is obviously 1307 01:09:27,680 --> 01:09:30,280 Speaker 1: very sad about this, and she blames herself for the death. 1308 01:09:30,640 --> 01:09:32,559 Speaker 1: Her life up to this point has been pretty difficult. 1309 01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,479 Speaker 1: Her father had died when she was young, then her 1310 01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,960 Speaker 1: mother had died like right after him. She and her 1311 01:09:37,000 --> 01:09:38,519 Speaker 1: brother has been a lot of time in foster home. 1312 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,040 Speaker 1: So this is a woman with a lot of trauma. 1313 01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,920 Speaker 1: And when she gets pregnant two years later, she finds 1314 01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:46,080 Speaker 1: herself kind of so consumed with anxiety that she's worried 1315 01:09:46,120 --> 01:09:48,559 Speaker 1: that it's going to harm the baby's health. So Esther 1316 01:09:48,640 --> 01:09:51,040 Speaker 1: and her husband do the responsible thing. They go to 1317 01:09:51,160 --> 01:09:53,880 Speaker 1: the best psychiatrists that they can afford to try to 1318 01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:57,080 Speaker 1: get help. And the psychiatrists they go to is Dr 1319 01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:00,120 Speaker 1: Ewan Cameron. Uh. They had been told that he is 1320 01:10:00,200 --> 01:10:03,280 Speaker 1: quote godlike when it came to treating issues of anxiety 1321 01:10:03,320 --> 01:10:05,880 Speaker 1: and depression. And I'm going to continue from quoting from 1322 01:10:05,880 --> 01:10:09,400 Speaker 1: that CBC right up now. Esther Schreier entered the hospital 1323 01:10:09,479 --> 01:10:12,320 Speaker 1: in February nineteen sixty to receive what her family thought 1324 01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:14,639 Speaker 1: was the best care money could buy, but her medical 1325 01:10:14,680 --> 01:10:16,840 Speaker 1: notes showed disregard for her well being and that of 1326 01:10:16,880 --> 01:10:19,679 Speaker 1: her unborn child right from the start. She spent thirty 1327 01:10:19,760 --> 01:10:21,760 Speaker 1: days in what was called the sleep room, a place 1328 01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,360 Speaker 1: where patients were put in a drug induced coma and 1329 01:10:24,479 --> 01:10:27,479 Speaker 1: roused only for three feedings in bathroom breaks per day. 1330 01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,320 Speaker 1: She lost thirteen pounds that month. Her records showed that 1331 01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:32,880 Speaker 1: she couldn't stand up because she was too weak. She 1332 01:10:32,960 --> 01:10:36,960 Speaker 1: also underwent a treatment called deep patterning. Cameron believed that 1333 01:10:37,040 --> 01:10:40,439 Speaker 1: breaking down patients minds to a childlike state through drugs 1334 01:10:40,439 --> 01:10:43,120 Speaker 1: and electroshock therapy would allow him to work from a 1335 01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,479 Speaker 1: clean slate, whereby he could then reprogram the patients. Part 1336 01:10:46,479 --> 01:10:49,960 Speaker 1: of his reprogramming regime would involve what he dubbed psychic driving, 1337 01:10:50,200 --> 01:10:52,880 Speaker 1: which meant playing recorded messages to the patients for up 1338 01:10:52,880 --> 01:10:55,719 Speaker 1: to twenty hours a day, whether they were asleep or awake. 1339 01:10:56,120 --> 01:10:59,280 Speaker 1: These voices were played through headphones, helmets, or speakers, sometimes 1340 01:10:59,280 --> 01:11:02,479 Speaker 1: installed right inside a patient's pillow. Records show that some 1341 01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:09,000 Speaker 1: patients would hear these messages up to half a million times. Um, okay, 1342 01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:13,000 Speaker 1: very very briefly, just yeah, got a question there, Jason. 1343 01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,120 Speaker 1: People who follow me on social media and follow me 1344 01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,600 Speaker 1: on my many many podcast appearances know that I have 1345 01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:22,760 Speaker 1: this drum beat that I come back to, which is 1346 01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,800 Speaker 1: how much the past sucked. And I get that there 1347 01:11:25,800 --> 01:11:28,240 Speaker 1: are lots of things about the modern world that are terrible, 1348 01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:31,879 Speaker 1: and that it feels like things going in the wrong direction. 1349 01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:37,360 Speaker 1: The world's becoming just everything is anxiety and stress. Um, 1350 01:11:38,040 --> 01:11:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, in inequality, all of the problems. You did 1351 01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,679 Speaker 1: not want to live in the nineteen fifties, a fucking 1352 01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,160 Speaker 1: lutly not and whatever you've seen where it's like, well, 1353 01:11:49,200 --> 01:11:52,479 Speaker 1: you know, back my my dad or my grandpa when 1354 01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:55,760 Speaker 1: he got married, they on just one income, you know, 1355 01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:57,840 Speaker 1: at a coal mind they were able to afford a 1356 01:11:57,880 --> 01:12:00,439 Speaker 1: house in a car and his wife could stay home 1357 01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,759 Speaker 1: and take care of the kids. What happened to that? 1358 01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:07,720 Speaker 1: That's that's perfectly valid. Like everything you're saying there, you 1359 01:12:07,720 --> 01:12:10,280 Speaker 1: didn't want to live in the nineteen anyone out there 1360 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:12,479 Speaker 1: listening to this, who is getting any kind of mental 1361 01:12:12,520 --> 01:12:15,719 Speaker 1: health care? Like in many many ways. We are still 1362 01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:19,080 Speaker 1: in the dark ages of mental health care. Like anybody 1363 01:12:19,080 --> 01:12:22,800 Speaker 1: who's taken any depressants or anti anxiety medication knows how 1364 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:26,479 Speaker 1: the effectiveness is all over the map. The dosage is 1365 01:12:26,520 --> 01:12:29,360 Speaker 1: getting it right, the withdrawals are terrible, side effects are terrible. 1366 01:12:29,600 --> 01:12:34,080 Speaker 1: Like our treatments are not great now. The treatments, God, 1367 01:12:34,600 --> 01:12:39,040 Speaker 1: the treatments back then, they were just experimenting with different 1368 01:12:39,080 --> 01:12:44,599 Speaker 1: ways to torture people. And like everything he described, if 1369 01:12:44,640 --> 01:12:49,280 Speaker 1: you were trying to inflict the worst like mental suffering 1370 01:12:49,320 --> 01:12:51,720 Speaker 1: on somebody, these are all the things you would come 1371 01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,559 Speaker 1: up with. It's sadistic, it's it's it's bug fuck, and 1372 01:12:55,720 --> 01:12:58,840 Speaker 1: it's made worse by like there's stuff going on that's 1373 01:12:58,880 --> 01:13:02,479 Speaker 1: like in this realm that them like potentially attempting to 1374 01:13:02,520 --> 01:13:07,080 Speaker 1: test treatments. Cameron isn't just trying to help her, He's 1375 01:13:07,120 --> 01:13:11,920 Speaker 1: also he's also trying to experiment with the destruction of 1376 01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:16,160 Speaker 1: human thoughts and memories. Right, He's trying to change like 1377 01:13:16,320 --> 01:13:21,120 Speaker 1: people's personalities through medical torture, right, Like that's part of 1378 01:13:21,120 --> 01:13:23,400 Speaker 1: the goal here. She doesn't know that that's what she's 1379 01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:26,920 Speaker 1: agreed to do, but that's what happens. And by March 1380 01:13:26,960 --> 01:13:30,839 Speaker 1: twelfth of nineteen sixty Esther Esther Schreier is quote considered 1381 01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:34,920 Speaker 1: completely depatterned. According to Cameron's medical records. The bad news 1382 01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:37,320 Speaker 1: is that being deep pattern means that she had forgotten 1383 01:13:37,360 --> 01:13:40,160 Speaker 1: the face, name, and existence of her husband. She could 1384 01:13:40,160 --> 01:13:43,080 Speaker 1: not control her bladder or bowels, She could not speak, 1385 01:13:43,320 --> 01:13:46,920 Speaker 1: She had trouble even swallowing. Her son later told journalists that, 1386 01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,880 Speaker 1: according to Esther, she could not remember how to boil water. 1387 01:13:50,600 --> 01:13:54,040 Speaker 1: Despite being deep patterned. The torture continued. Dr Cameron would 1388 01:13:54,080 --> 01:13:56,160 Speaker 1: give her four or five days of rest at a time, 1389 01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:58,200 Speaker 1: and then he would take her in and subject her 1390 01:13:58,240 --> 01:14:01,680 Speaker 1: to hundreds of electro shock treatments. These continued until the 1391 01:14:01,760 --> 01:14:04,599 Speaker 1: eighth month of her pregnancy. In two thousand four, Esther 1392 01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,160 Speaker 1: told BBC Scotland what it was like when she actually 1393 01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:10,200 Speaker 1: had her baby, completely stripped of her understanding of how 1394 01:14:10,240 --> 01:14:13,120 Speaker 1: to be a person. I had a new baby and 1395 01:14:13,160 --> 01:14:14,800 Speaker 1: I didn't know what to do with the baby. I 1396 01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:16,720 Speaker 1: had help a baby nurse, but she had to have 1397 01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:18,720 Speaker 1: a day off and she left me a book. And 1398 01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:20,679 Speaker 1: I'll just give you a little example from you book. 1399 01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:22,920 Speaker 1: From the book, when you hear the baby cry, go 1400 01:14:23,000 --> 01:14:24,920 Speaker 1: to the room, pick up baby, and step by step 1401 01:14:24,960 --> 01:14:27,200 Speaker 1: how to feed the baby. And that was very frightening, 1402 01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:29,960 Speaker 1: Like she she had to have it explained to her, 1403 01:14:30,040 --> 01:14:33,240 Speaker 1: like how to feed, like that a baby needed feeding, 1404 01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:35,479 Speaker 1: all of this stuff like it had just And I 1405 01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,280 Speaker 1: think what's happening here is not that because she recovers 1406 01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:42,400 Speaker 1: eventually she it's not that he's obliterated these memories. It's 1407 01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,080 Speaker 1: that he's done so much damage to her ability to 1408 01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:49,200 Speaker 1: like focus and function and think by blasting her with 1409 01:14:49,320 --> 01:14:55,519 Speaker 1: noise basically ceaselessly. Um that she's discovered depending at all, 1410 01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:59,200 Speaker 1: that's all garbage nonsense. It's if you if you just 1411 01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:03,920 Speaker 1: relentlessly attacks someone in many different ways for a long 1412 01:15:04,000 --> 01:15:07,639 Speaker 1: enough period, Yeah, their whole sense of their whole function 1413 01:15:07,680 --> 01:15:11,280 Speaker 1: will break down. There's nothing magical and mysterious about it. 1414 01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,800 Speaker 1: If you torture somebody enough long enough, their ability to 1415 01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:17,280 Speaker 1: function in all sorts of ways. Like you said, she 1416 01:15:17,320 --> 01:15:20,160 Speaker 1: also lost a bladder control. Yeah, it's like, yeah, you 1417 01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:25,280 Speaker 1: ruin this person's brain temporarily through sheer harm you were 1418 01:15:25,320 --> 01:15:28,439 Speaker 1: doing to them. Again, you could get the same effect 1419 01:15:28,439 --> 01:15:30,760 Speaker 1: by bashing them in the head with a pipe. It's 1420 01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:33,599 Speaker 1: there's nothing like these these people think they're playing god. 1421 01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,880 Speaker 1: It's like, no, you're just brutalizing people. Yeah, and that's 1422 01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:41,360 Speaker 1: that's all that's happening. Um. So again, esther does recover, 1423 01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:43,320 Speaker 1: she does get to live a full life, unlike some 1424 01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,680 Speaker 1: of these people. She comes back to herself. Obviously, she 1425 01:15:46,840 --> 01:15:49,280 Speaker 1: and her son suffered trauma because he's in the womb 1426 01:15:49,320 --> 01:15:51,040 Speaker 1: while a lot of this is happening, Like, none of 1427 01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:54,360 Speaker 1: this is good for anybody. Um, and his early childhood 1428 01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:57,280 Speaker 1: is not ideal as a result of his mom going 1429 01:15:57,280 --> 01:15:59,519 Speaker 1: through a lot of this stuff. Still, he and his mom, 1430 01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:01,639 Speaker 1: you have to say, are kind of the better case 1431 01:16:01,680 --> 01:16:06,080 Speaker 1: scenarios for Dr Cameron's patients. McGill University, where he taught 1432 01:16:06,120 --> 01:16:09,479 Speaker 1: and conducted his research, later published a Mia copple where 1433 01:16:09,479 --> 01:16:12,519 Speaker 1: they noted that quote. In addition to LSD, Cameron also 1434 01:16:12,600 --> 01:16:16,120 Speaker 1: experimented with various paralytic drugs, as well as electro convulsive 1435 01:16:16,160 --> 01:16:19,200 Speaker 1: therapy at thirty to forty times the normal power. His 1436 01:16:19,320 --> 01:16:22,599 Speaker 1: driving experiments consisted of putting subjects in a drug induced 1437 01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:24,960 Speaker 1: coma for weeks at a time up to three months 1438 01:16:25,000 --> 01:16:27,479 Speaker 1: in one case, while playing tape loops of noise or 1439 01:16:27,520 --> 01:16:31,080 Speaker 1: simple repetitive statements. His experiments were typically carried out on 1440 01:16:31,120 --> 01:16:34,080 Speaker 1: patients who had entered the institute from minor problems such 1441 01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:37,759 Speaker 1: as anxiety disorders and postpartum depression, many of whom suffered 1442 01:16:37,760 --> 01:16:41,559 Speaker 1: permanently from this action. Now I wanted to provide a 1443 01:16:41,560 --> 01:16:45,080 Speaker 1: little more context as to just how medieval these fucking 1444 01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:47,599 Speaker 1: experiments were, and so I'd like to quote from one 1445 01:16:47,600 --> 01:16:50,040 Speaker 1: more passage of Kinser's book here before we close out 1446 01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:53,679 Speaker 1: for the day. There, he or she was fed LSD 1447 01:16:53,840 --> 01:16:56,479 Speaker 1: and given only minimal amounts of food, water in oxygen. 1448 01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:59,400 Speaker 1: Cameron fitted patients with helmets equipped with ear phones into 1449 01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:02,439 Speaker 1: which he piped phrases or messages like my mother hates me, 1450 01:17:02,720 --> 01:17:06,000 Speaker 1: repeated hundreds of thousands of times. In professional papers and 1451 01:17:06,080 --> 01:17:09,400 Speaker 1: lab reports, Cameron reported that he had succeeded in destroying minds, 1452 01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,280 Speaker 1: but he had not found a way to replace them 1453 01:17:11,280 --> 01:17:14,000 Speaker 1: with new ones. After completing the treatment of one patient, 1454 01:17:14,040 --> 01:17:16,960 Speaker 1: he he wrote with evident pride that the shock treatment 1455 01:17:17,000 --> 01:17:19,320 Speaker 1: turned the then nineteen year old Honors student into a 1456 01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:22,200 Speaker 1: woman who sucked her thumb, talked like a baby, demanded 1457 01:17:22,240 --> 01:17:27,080 Speaker 1: to be fed from a bottle, and urinated on the floor. Now, again, 1458 01:17:27,560 --> 01:17:30,840 Speaker 1: that's important. His goal is to destroy their minds. This 1459 01:17:30,920 --> 01:17:33,519 Speaker 1: is part one of what God lead wants, right. They 1460 01:17:33,520 --> 01:17:37,000 Speaker 1: want to destroy people's personalities so that they can put 1461 01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,759 Speaker 1: new ones in their place. Right. And they never figure 1462 01:17:39,760 --> 01:17:42,000 Speaker 1: out that second part as far as we know, but 1463 01:17:42,080 --> 01:17:46,519 Speaker 1: they do figure out how to destroy people for a while. Um. 1464 01:17:46,560 --> 01:17:49,760 Speaker 1: The Canadian government has provided no list of the experiments 1465 01:17:49,760 --> 01:17:52,800 Speaker 1: that Dr Cameron carried out with their approval. This is 1466 01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:55,759 Speaker 1: not something the CIA is doing, and the Canadian government 1467 01:17:55,800 --> 01:18:00,639 Speaker 1: is unaware. The Canadian government is enthusiastically a proving of this, 1468 01:18:00,960 --> 01:18:04,439 Speaker 1: and when the CIA stops funding Cameron, the Canadian government 1469 01:18:04,479 --> 01:18:07,759 Speaker 1: gives him money to continue his research. Um. So again, 1470 01:18:08,280 --> 01:18:12,040 Speaker 1: not just the US involved here. Nine of Cameron's patients 1471 01:18:12,040 --> 01:18:14,400 Speaker 1: sued the CIA in the nineteen eighties for their treatment 1472 01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:16,599 Speaker 1: under m k Ultra. It was settled out of court 1473 01:18:16,600 --> 01:18:19,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen under the condition that the agency was not 1474 01:18:19,320 --> 01:18:23,000 Speaker 1: accepting liability. Esther was too embarrassed to sign onto the 1475 01:18:23,000 --> 01:18:25,280 Speaker 1: case at that point in time, but she eventually signed 1476 01:18:25,280 --> 01:18:29,080 Speaker 1: on when the Canadian government in nineteen ninety four offered 1477 01:18:29,080 --> 01:18:32,759 Speaker 1: compensation for people who had experienced full or substantial deep patterning. 1478 01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:36,280 Speaker 1: Seventy four patients received hundred thousand dollar payments under the 1479 01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:41,120 Speaker 1: condition that the Canadian government was not admitting culpability. So 1480 01:18:41,840 --> 01:18:45,720 Speaker 1: even when adjusting for inflation, that is nothing, not not 1481 01:18:45,840 --> 01:18:49,320 Speaker 1: enough money for this. Um, you could not pay me 1482 01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:51,280 Speaker 1: to have this, As someone who has done quite a 1483 01:18:51,320 --> 01:18:53,960 Speaker 1: bit of messing with my own head on chemicals, there's nothing. 1484 01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:55,720 Speaker 1: There's not an amount of money you could pay to 1485 01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:57,599 Speaker 1: go through this. This is the worst thing I can 1486 01:18:57,640 --> 01:19:02,360 Speaker 1: literally imagine. Um, Like, yeah, I'd rather go to prison 1487 01:19:02,360 --> 01:19:08,040 Speaker 1: than absolutely. There's like there's like fucking labor camps that 1488 01:19:08,080 --> 01:19:11,160 Speaker 1: would be a less traumatic experience than this. At least 1489 01:19:11,200 --> 01:19:18,400 Speaker 1: you're like a person in that right m hm. Anyway, Jason, 1490 01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:20,920 Speaker 1: you got to think you want to plug. How are 1491 01:19:20,960 --> 01:19:25,280 Speaker 1: we only halfway through this story? How bad does it get? Um? 1492 01:19:25,320 --> 01:19:29,240 Speaker 1: It gets a lot worse. I mean it's I'd say 1493 01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:33,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of just stays at this level. Um, so 1494 01:19:36,200 --> 01:19:41,080 Speaker 1: false exectations with the listeners. Anyways, the novel is called 1495 01:19:41,200 --> 01:19:43,840 Speaker 1: if this book exists, you're in the wrong universe. I 1496 01:19:43,880 --> 01:19:45,880 Speaker 1: am Jason Parson. I used to be one of the 1497 01:19:45,880 --> 01:19:49,800 Speaker 1: head guys that cracked when Evans first started posting there 1498 01:19:49,800 --> 01:19:55,200 Speaker 1: as a literal child, I'm on this is a sequel 1499 01:19:55,200 --> 01:19:58,240 Speaker 1: to the book slash film John Dyes at the end 1500 01:19:58,280 --> 01:20:00,240 Speaker 1: it exists as both of those things. If you're fan 1501 01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:02,960 Speaker 1: of that, Seriousest is the latest book. Otherwise, if you 1502 01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:05,200 Speaker 1: just want to see me posting things on TikTok or 1503 01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:08,400 Speaker 1: on Twitter or on any of the other ones, my 1504 01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:10,880 Speaker 1: name is Jason Pargein p A R. G. I In. 1505 01:20:11,479 --> 01:20:13,759 Speaker 1: I used to write on the Internet as David Wong 1506 01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,599 Speaker 1: back in the day. Um, and we will. We'll be 1507 01:20:17,680 --> 01:20:22,400 Speaker 1: back for parts three and four. We share well. Um, 1508 01:20:22,439 --> 01:20:25,640 Speaker 1: you can find my book after the Revolution if you 1509 01:20:25,720 --> 01:20:27,599 Speaker 1: just type it into anything that will let you buy 1510 01:20:27,600 --> 01:20:30,280 Speaker 1: a book. You know how to use Google. We're done, 1511 01:20:30,439 --> 01:20:34,439 Speaker 1: Go Home. Behind the Bastards is a production of cool 1512 01:20:34,520 --> 01:20:37,400 Speaker 1: Zone Media. For more from cool Zone Media, visit our 1513 01:20:37,400 --> 01:20:40,840 Speaker 1: website cool zone media dot com, or check us out 1514 01:20:40,880 --> 01:20:43,479 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 1515 01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:44,640 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts.