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Speaker 1: Welcome back to cutting the distance. Today's guest comes to

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Speaker 1: us with a bunch of data, research and information on elk,

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Speaker 1: their biology, and their behavior. I want to see how

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Speaker 1: we may be able to take this information and use

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Speaker 1: it to our benefit during hunting season. See what makes sense,

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Speaker 1: what relates, what doesn't, and what you're seeing out there.

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Speaker 1: So Brock McMillan comes to us with a PhD in biology.

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Speaker 1: He was a professor professor of ecology at Minnesota State

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Speaker 1: University for nine years prior to joining the faculty as

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Ecologist at BYU for the past fifteen years. In

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Speaker 1: addition to all of his professional experience, he is also

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Speaker 1: an archery elkhunter, which I'm most excited about because we

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Speaker 1: get to jump in and talk about some of the

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Speaker 1: things that I've observed and if they have a biological

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Speaker 1: reasoning as well as what he's observed and maybe how

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Speaker 1: they relate how they're differ I also hoped to dive

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Speaker 1: into some of the research and see if it sheds

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Speaker 1: a little light on why and how come those questions

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Speaker 1: that I ask myself every September, and I find myself

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Speaker 1: trying to answer those every fall. So welcome to the show. Brock.

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Speaker 2: Thank you very much, Lisa.

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Speaker 1: I appreciate having you here. I know you guys are

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Speaker 1: just like everywhere across the West. You're in the thick

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Speaker 1: a calving season. How's that going for you there in Utah?

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Speaker 2: It's going great. We're right dead center. So yesterday we

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Speaker 2: collared our middle calf, meaning that half of our elk

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Speaker 2: that we have colored have given birth and half are

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Speaker 2: still waiting to give birth. And so yesterday was the

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Speaker 2: dead center day, gotcha.

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Speaker 1: And that relates to timing, which we're definitely going to

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Speaker 1: jump into here in a little bit, you know, timing

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Speaker 1: of the rut and how that affects you know, drop

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Speaker 1: dates and whatnot. I know, you know, being from Washington,

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Speaker 1: we're up a little bit further north. I know they're

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Speaker 1: just kind of I think there may be a little

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Speaker 1: bit on the front end, and so we'll talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that and how latitude may affect that

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Speaker 1: may not affect it, in your opinion. I'm gonna actually

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Speaker 1: gonna go over to eastern Washington and help capture calves

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Speaker 1: here next week and then interview there biologists. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's that time of year. Really thankful to have

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Speaker 1: you here. So, like every podcast, we're going to start

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Speaker 1: with some listener questions, and for this episode, I went

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Speaker 1: to is it September Yet? It's a Facebook group, a

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Speaker 1: bunch of diehard Archel hunters. They live for that month

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Speaker 1: of September. So I'm excited to bring some of their

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Speaker 1: questions to you here, Brock And the first one that

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Speaker 1: we got from Dan Scalis from the from the is

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Speaker 1: it September Yet?

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Speaker 2: Group?

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Speaker 1: In your opinion, how does the moon phase affect the

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Speaker 1: rut and the elk behavior? You know, there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of built up I'm gonna I'm gonna elaborate on that.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of talk about, you know, taking your

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Speaker 1: vacation around moon phases, are taking it, you know, just

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Speaker 1: on the backside of a full moon in your opinion

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Speaker 1: or not even your opinion. What does the science or

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Speaker 1: research say about full moon and how to affects the rut?

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Speaker 2: Jason, I would love to be able to answer that question.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, and that's a bad answer, But we

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Speaker 2: have activity data right now from we've actually GPS colored

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Speaker 2: about one thy seven hundred elk and so we know

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Speaker 2: movement behavior for all of those animals and we're just

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Speaker 2: analyzing right now the effect of time of day, season,

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Speaker 2: moon phase. So I don't have a complete answer for that,

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Speaker 2: but undoubtedly it has some effect.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to roll a little bit of my information,

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Speaker 1: a little background on myself, Brock. You know, being an engineer,

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Speaker 1: I'm very data driven. It's why I like talking to

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Speaker 1: biologists because it's like, the data is what the data is.

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Speaker 1: You can read it and interpolate it however you want.

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Speaker 1: But one year, we set out a trail camera one

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Speaker 1: a one month cycle. We set out on October first

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Speaker 1: and we picked it up on September first. We then

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Speaker 1: went through and categorized every picture we got of bowls,

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Speaker 1: time of day, and what it related to the moon phase.

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Speaker 1: And all we saw was a slight shift in timing

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Speaker 1: when the moon was out, we would see those animals

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Speaker 1: coming out a little bit later if the moon wasn't.

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Speaker 1: And it didn't really seem to have an effect as

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Speaker 1: much as you would think. It was just a slight

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Speaker 1: a slight movement in time. Now that's you know, unscientific,

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Speaker 1: it's just me looking at one trail camera and one location.

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Speaker 1: But we did see, you know, the moon, whether it

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Speaker 1: relates to the brightness or their visibility. We did see things,

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Speaker 1: you know, leave earlier and come out later. I guess,

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Speaker 1: you know, at water, and this was at a water source,

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Speaker 1: so I need, I guess we need to preface that

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Speaker 1: as well as I also went back and looked at

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Speaker 1: you know, fifteen or twenty of my bowl kills that

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Speaker 1: I could remember days and times and whatnot. And one

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Speaker 1: thing that was actually contrary to what you hear. You

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Speaker 1: know a lot of what said is you know, following

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Speaker 1: a full moon is the best time to hunt, you know,

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Speaker 1: off of a full moon, going into no moon is

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Speaker 1: your best time to hunt. I'd actually killed the majoriy.

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Speaker 1: I think fourteen out of twenty of those bulls. We're

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Speaker 1: leading up to a full moon within that week of

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Speaker 1: the full moon. And so not that it's good data,

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Speaker 1: at least in my you know, circumstances, It didn't seem

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Speaker 1: to matter that much, right.

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Speaker 2: Jason so Well, The literature is the evidence that is

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Speaker 2: in the literature suggests that photo period is what drives

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Speaker 2: the hormone cycles on both male and female elk, and

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Speaker 2: so there can be an effective moon phase, and we

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Speaker 2: hope to be able to determine if there is an

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Speaker 2: effective moon phase, but the primary driver is photo period.

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Speaker 2: So as days under shortening, testosterone levels are increasing in

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Speaker 2: the bulls and the follicle stimulating hormone in the females

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Speaker 2: is leading them into estrus.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, we're gonna jump into that pretty heavy here

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Speaker 1: in a little bit, so we'll talk about photo period.

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Speaker 1: But this is really it's not non scientific. But I

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Speaker 1: get asked a lot of times, if you only could

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Speaker 1: take one week of vacation, when would you you hunt it.

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Speaker 1: It's really what you're looking at the hunt, whether you

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Speaker 1: want kind of that pre red action, whether you want

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Speaker 1: to be in the middle of the bagling, whether you

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Speaker 1: want to be on the post. But there's only so

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Speaker 1: many days in September. So in my position where I

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Speaker 1: can hunt a lot, I'm just hunting regardless of the

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Speaker 1: moon phase. But I don't and this is all opinion based.

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Speaker 1: I don't think it matters as much as we like

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Speaker 1: to think. But but it's real, you know. It's just

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Speaker 1: based on my experience when they're running.

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Speaker 2: They're running, Jason, so I think that you're probably right there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay. Our second question comes in from Thorn Monday.

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Speaker 1: Thorn Monday, excuse me, also from is it September yet

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Speaker 1: during a colon? You have a bowl all riled up

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Speaker 1: and the next thing that bowl rounds up his cows

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Speaker 1: and leaves. Is there is there biology involved there. We're

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Speaker 1: going to get deep into the coaling elk here in

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Speaker 1: a little bit, but I wanted to throw this question

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Speaker 1: up front. Yeah, and I guess there may not be

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Speaker 1: enough information. You know, Winding, did you get too close

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Speaker 1: or did that bowl feel threatened? But can you explain

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Speaker 1: that that scenario out in the field and what you

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Speaker 1: think maybe going through that bull's head that was involved

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Speaker 1: in the call in and willing to communicate with you

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Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden stops the communication.

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Speaker 2: I don't have a biological explanation with that. I've had

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Speaker 2: that exact same experience several times. And maybe Jason, you're

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Speaker 2: a better color than I am, but my guess is

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Speaker 2: you've had that situation as well. I think every bull

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Speaker 2: has a different personality, and actually there's been some personality

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Speaker 2: work done lately, and that's true. They have different personalities.

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Speaker 2: Some are much more likely to take risks than others.

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Speaker 2: So I think that I don't know if you can

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Speaker 2: get too close, if they don't smell you. My experience,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know Jason be different. I go in

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Speaker 2: hard until I get pretty close, and then I try

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Speaker 2: to be quiet because Elkern amazing. You know that in

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Speaker 2: the woods, there's no reason to be timid getting close.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm in that same boat. I feel, you know,

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Speaker 1: Number one, they don't smell you. Number two, you know

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Speaker 1: you obviously don't want to let them see you secondary,

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Speaker 1: but it's not as it's not as important as is

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Speaker 1: being scented. But I'm the same way. As long as

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Speaker 1: you're not gonna get picked off, getting as close as

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Speaker 1: possible has always been my game plan. I vegetation and

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Speaker 1: terrain allow it. I'm gonna I'm gonna get real, real tight.

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Speaker 1: Because we all know and and maybe elaborate on that

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Speaker 1: question why he rounds his bull or why that bull

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Speaker 1: rounds his cows up and leaves, it's it's that it's

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Speaker 1: that threat of losing it, losing his cows. You know,

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Speaker 1: These these bulls are out there with the sole purpose

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Speaker 1: to live and then recreate, you know, And and they've

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Speaker 1: got there for sure. Thing if a bull starts to

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Speaker 1: put pressure on them, or you do get too close

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Speaker 1: and his personality is such that he'd rather retain his

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Speaker 1: cows and not risk fighting. A new bullet showed up

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Speaker 1: for him, of course he's going to go the other way.

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Speaker 1: And and we talked about it on this podcast before,

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Speaker 1: and I've talked about it in some of my calling strategy.

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Speaker 1: Is this is why I sometimes start with different levels

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Speaker 1: of threat, like what a cow call have necessarily forced

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Speaker 1: him to leave right away? Or you know, and don't

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Speaker 1: get me wrong, I'm a heavy bugler, but you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's sometimes tough to figure out why that bull

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Speaker 1: just just rounds up and leaves at a certain point

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Speaker 1: during the call in. We may not know, and it.

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Speaker 2: Mind change during the rut, because you know, bulls may

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Speaker 2: lose thirty percent of their body masks. They may be

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Speaker 2: losing three hundred pounds during the rut when they're not

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Speaker 2: eating and they're fighting all the time. So early in

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Speaker 2: the rut, the dominant bull's there and he's saying, I'm

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Speaker 2: willing to fight anybody. But ten days later he may say,

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Speaker 2: I'm out of energy and I'm going to avoid any

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Speaker 2: conflict that I can.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a lot less energy expended to round his

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Speaker 1: cows up and leave versus dealing with a you know,

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Speaker 1: another mature bull. Okay, this one, And I apologize ahead

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Speaker 1: of time, Brock. These were the four questions I pulled

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Speaker 1: his user questions, so I didn't let you you kind

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Speaker 1: of review them, and I don't know if you'll have

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Speaker 1: an answer or not. But does so in the West,

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Speaker 1: we deal in Elk Country, we deal with a lot

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Speaker 1: of fire conditions, especially into September and especially as of late.

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Speaker 1: Is there any indication that smoky air, poor air quality

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Speaker 1: affects running bulls at all? Or is it strictly based

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Speaker 1: on photo period.

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Speaker 2: I don't think anybody studied that, but I can't imagine

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Speaker 2: there's an effect.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I'm I'm in that same boat, aside from

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Speaker 1: the effect that has on me trying to breathe and

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Speaker 1: you know, get around a little bit. Yeah, okay. And

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Speaker 1: that was from Marshall Buyer in there on is it

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Speaker 1: September yet? And then you may have some insight to

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Speaker 1: this when this is a little more technical question comes

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Speaker 1: from Michael Cummings from is it September yet? What does

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Speaker 1: a science say about shooting bulls versus cows for the

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Speaker 1: health of the herd? And I'm going to elaborate on

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Speaker 1: this question a little bit. Is sometimes you see areas

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Speaker 1: where herds are really i would say performing poorlion area,

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Speaker 1: or they're they're not meeting objectives, and then you get

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Speaker 1: frustrated with the Fish and Wildlife Commission or the you

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Speaker 1: know whoever it may be, that we're, dang it, we're

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Speaker 1: giving two bull takes out, but yet we still have

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Speaker 1: fifty cow takes in the unit. I'm gonna I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: ask that from a hunter's perspective, what does what does

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Speaker 1: in your opinion taking cows versus bulls, because and how

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Speaker 1: does that negatively or in it, you know, adversely, affect

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Speaker 1: it or does it in your opinion?

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Speaker 2: So I hope this is something we get into because

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Speaker 2: I think this is a really complex question. If you're

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Speaker 2: a rancher, a cattle rancher, you don't want any bulls

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Speaker 2: in your herd because every bull you put in the

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Speaker 2: herd is is a lack of food for another cow

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Speaker 2: to produce a calf. And I think it's generally the

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Speaker 2: same for elk. You don't need very many bulls in

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Speaker 2: the herd to service all the cows and to service

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Speaker 2: them during their estress. I hear all the time. Well,

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Speaker 2: if you don't have enough, they go into a second estress.

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Speaker 2: We have no evidence of that whatsoever. Zero and so

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Speaker 2: and so the more bulls that you remove from the herd,

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Speaker 2: the more productive the herd's going to be. Now, there's

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Speaker 2: less bulls to see when you're hunting if you do that,

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Speaker 2: but the herd as a whole will be more productive.

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Speaker 2: The other kicker is Jason, and this is a big

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Speaker 2: one for us in Utah is as a population ages, say,

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Speaker 2: for example, you are not removing cows, and the average

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Speaker 2: age of the cow increases, the likelihood that that cow

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Speaker 2: becomes pregnant goes down with age, and so as a

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Speaker 2: herd ages as a whole, the productivity of that herd

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Speaker 2: goes down. Regardless of how many are on the landscape.

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Speaker 2: So there's a whole bunch of factors. If we have

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Speaker 2: too many miles on the landscape, production is going to

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Speaker 2: go down because nutrition drives whether whether a cow goes

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Speaker 2: into estress or not. If she's not fat enough, she

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Speaker 2: doesn't even go into estres and so pregnancy rates will

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Speaker 2: be low. Same thing if the herd's getting old and

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Speaker 2: see late, ray will be low and the herd just

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Speaker 2: won't be as productive as it was during the growth

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Speaker 2: phase for that herd. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, And we're going

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Speaker 1: to jump into herd dynamics and a little bit bold

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Speaker 1: of Cali ratio and some of that, and I've got

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Speaker 1: I've got a lot more questions we can expand on this, like, well,

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Speaker 1: what's a good management tool to make sure you're only

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Speaker 1: taking those those older cols or how do you determine that?

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Speaker 1: So I've got some questions from a hunter's perspective like

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Speaker 1: and a game manager's perspective like how do you even

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Speaker 1: manage that for the optimal hurt health? But we'll jump

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Speaker 1: into that. So No, I appreciate you answering that question,

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Speaker 1: and I'll kind of wrap up our listener questions today,

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Speaker 1: Brock And once again, if you have questions of your

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Speaker 1: own you'd like me or my guests the experts to

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Speaker 1: try to answer, feel free to email us at CTD

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Speaker 1: at phelpsgame Calls dot com, or reach out to us

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Speaker 1: on social and give us your questions and we'll try

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Speaker 1: to include him here. So can't thank the guys over

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Speaker 1: at is it September yet? Page enough for filling us

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Speaker 1: up with some questions, and the ones I didn't get to,

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Speaker 1: we're for sure going to get to in my conversation.

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Speaker 1: So next up, we're going to jump into my discussion here, Brock.

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Speaker 2: Excellent.

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Speaker 1: So I'm all, like I mentioned earlier, I'm excited when

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Speaker 1: I get to talk to biologists, researcher, scientists, people that

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Speaker 1: have hard data to look at when and you know, I,

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Speaker 1: I would say, I go out there as a guy

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Speaker 1: that just learned by trial and error this works, just

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. Maybe I have an opinion why or why

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Speaker 1: it doesn't, but there's no data right besides it happening

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Speaker 1: multiple times or not. And so very excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to you today, Brock and kind of run some scenarios, questions, issues,

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Speaker 1: whatever it may be by you to see if you

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Speaker 1: know what the what the science supports. I know we

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Speaker 1: had a great conversation a week ago, and I got

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Speaker 1: excited about some of the things you had talked about about,

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Speaker 1: like cows coming into Estrus, why you you know adjacent

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Speaker 1: units are doing good. So really excited to jump in here.

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Speaker 1: So I'm gonna I'm gonna break this all the way

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Speaker 1: down to the foundation, and I don't feel that any

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Speaker 1: of this is below elk hunters. But let's start with

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Speaker 1: the elkra in general. I want to build this whole

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Speaker 1: conversation off that foundation. Can you just go into the

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Speaker 1: generalities of the elkred as far as timing, you know,

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Speaker 1: bulls going to cows, cows going to bulls, like, as

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Speaker 1: far as the bulls run the herd for that amount

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Speaker 1: of time, or do the lead cows run the run

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Speaker 1: the herd?

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Speaker 2: Like?

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Speaker 1: Just give us a five minute snapshot of the elk

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Speaker 1: rat and what's taking place.

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Speaker 2: So I think the el elkra is dictit yeh, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 2: is dictated by patrician is get dictated by birth. So

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Speaker 2: what's driving when the rut is is that that calf

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Speaker 2: has maximum new pretrition when it has maximum need, and

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Speaker 2: so the female the maximum energetic requirement is just prior

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Speaker 2: to weaning that calf. So the female gives birth like

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Speaker 2: right now the first of June, and for the next

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Speaker 2: three or four or sometimes six or seven months she's

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Speaker 2: nursing that young although she starts to wean in two

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Speaker 2: to three months, so she needs maximum food on the

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Speaker 2: ground in two to three months from right now to

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Speaker 2: help that calf grow as much as possible, and so

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Speaker 2: that dictates when the calf is born, and that's the

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Speaker 2: evolutionary force is going to drive that date. And then

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Speaker 2: gestation is two hundred and forty to two hundred and

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Speaker 2: fifty days, and so the rut has to happen two

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Speaker 2: hundred and forty to two hundred and fifty days before

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Speaker 2: that date for everything to be optimal. And so I

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Speaker 2: think that's what's driving when the rut happens. So if today,

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Speaker 2: which it is the peak of partrition on the unit

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Speaker 2: we're studying right now, were the peak Partrician, then like

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Speaker 2: the twenty fourth of September should have been the peak

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Speaker 2: of rut this last year.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel that those those two hundred and forty

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Speaker 1: days is that variable amongst units or is it kind

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Speaker 1: of pre programmed, like you said, into that evolutionary data,

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Speaker 1: or is it two hundred and fifty days for a

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Speaker 1: certain unit and two hundred and thirty days for a

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Speaker 1: different unit.

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Speaker 2: That's a great question. All we know about the gestation

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Speaker 2: is from captive ELK, and what we know in captive

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Speaker 2: ELK is gestation can vary from about two hundred and

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Speaker 2: forty to two hundred and sixty two days. I don't

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Speaker 2: think there's near that much variation. Those are the extremes.

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Speaker 2: I think that in general it varies from two hundred

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Speaker 2: and forty five to two hundred and fifty days. And

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Speaker 2: like humans, it's not everybody is exactly nine months. Some

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Speaker 2: come a couple of days shorter, some cold a couple

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Speaker 2: of days longer, in my case a week longer. And

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Speaker 2: I was eleven pounds that kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, so let me I don't want to to

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Speaker 1: miss interpret your your numbers, but you're saying that it's

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Speaker 1: a fairly tight range. Because if you're saying only twenty

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Speaker 1: two days is the extreme ranges of the envelope, does

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Speaker 1: that mean all these elk or all these cows are

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Speaker 1: being bred within a very very short time window. Or

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Speaker 1: I mean, because we've all been out there, right, and

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Speaker 1: so we've heard bols, bigel and you know, end of

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Speaker 1: August all the way to the beginning of October, larger

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Speaker 1: herds seem to take longer. Are those all is that

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Speaker 1: red activity happening outside of the breeding or or is

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Speaker 1: it are those like anomalies or outliers Why that bull stays,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of active and those cows are entering

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Speaker 1: estrius those kind of off times outside of that twenty

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Speaker 1: two day window you kind of just mentioned.

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Speaker 2: So so the twenty two day window is the gestation.

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Speaker 2: So that doesn't go oh, gotcha, gotcha. Yeah, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: dictate how long the red is because it we don't

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Speaker 2: have hard data yet. But what we think is happening

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Speaker 2: is a cow has to reach a certain condition level

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Speaker 2: before she can go into estress, and so healthy fat

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Speaker 2: cows come into estress earlier than poor condition cows, if

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Speaker 2: the poor condition cow comes into estress at all. And

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Speaker 2: so we had our first birth, Jason, nine days ago

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Speaker 2: now and we're already in the middle. But my guess

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Speaker 2: is that partrition our birthing will tell all the way

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Speaker 2: towards the end of June. And so yeah, absolutely, the

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Speaker 2: rout may start nine days before September twenty fourth start

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Speaker 2: going really good. So we're sitting at about September fifteenth

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Speaker 2: for these units here, and the majority of all the

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Speaker 2: animals are going to be bred by October fifth, but

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Speaker 2: there are some that were poor conditions that are still

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Speaker 2: trying to get to sufficient condition to go into estress,

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Speaker 2: and so it may lag. The rut may lag all

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Speaker 2: the way into the middle or even to the end

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Speaker 2: of October for those few straggler cows that are still

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Speaker 2: trying to get enough fat on their bones.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just trying to reduce this data to areas

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Speaker 1: i've hunted. So if you're in, let's say, a unit

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Speaker 1: that doesn't have necessarily the best winning ground and so

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Speaker 1: those cows go back into spring and summer in poorer condition,

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Speaker 1: is that where you may see that rut going longer

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Speaker 1: just because it's taking them a little bit more. Their

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Speaker 1: health doesn't is good, and so you may see that

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Speaker 1: rut go longer in those more mountainous units Versus if

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Speaker 1: you're in a low lying unit that has easy winners,

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Speaker 1: you may see them all come in like you said,

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Speaker 1: middle of September and hit all at the same time,

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Speaker 1: where you get a high percentage of your cows all

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Speaker 1: at once, versus you know, different levels or a spread

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Speaker 1: out array of health.

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Speaker 2: So that's a great question, and I don't know one

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Speaker 2: hundred percent of the answer. If I draw on deer

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Speaker 2: data so that they're a little different than elk, summer

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Speaker 2: habitat is way more important than winter habitat, And I

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Speaker 2: think it's true for elk too, unless they're feeding on

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Speaker 2: somebody'sself off al filled or haystack. And so what they

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Speaker 2: come out of winter in condition is dictated by the

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Speaker 2: condition they go into winter, and so what they have

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Speaker 2: to eat in the summer dictates more about it estross

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Speaker 2: than how mild the winters are where they're living, gotcha.

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Speaker 1: So they can they can overcome that hard winter through

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Speaker 1: their their feed and hell through you know, late spring summer,

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Speaker 1: and then that will get them back to kicking their

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Speaker 1: estress off at the right time.

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Speaker 2: Right because because their their condition is September is dictating

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Speaker 2: what is happening, and so they have the ability to

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Speaker 2: overcome anything that happened in winter. Every elk on the

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Speaker 2: landscape in an area that has real winters basically is

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Speaker 2: burnt through all of their energy reserves by the end

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Speaker 2: of winter, and and they're running on fumes, especially true

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Speaker 2: for deer, but elk two they're running on fumes by

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Speaker 2: by April. Gotcha.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I think that that's a great, great conversation,

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Speaker 1: and I'm sure there's a little little side pieces we

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Speaker 1: could pick at there or there for a long time.

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Speaker 1: So during that rut, in your opinion, you know, at

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Speaker 1: least in my area up in the mountains, you know,

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Speaker 1: the bulls like to hang out together through July most August,

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Speaker 1: and then towards the end of August. In the middle

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Speaker 1: of August, we can start to see these bulls split

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Speaker 1: up and the cows have hung out by themselves, maybe

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Speaker 1: some immature bulls. And you're is there or data that

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Speaker 1: supports the bulls going to the cows or the cows

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Speaker 1: going to the bulls. As you know, let's say you're

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Speaker 1: running trail cameras and you've got all these pictures of

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Speaker 1: bulls and they disappear. Should I go to the nearest

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Speaker 1: location of cows or what what's going on there during

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Speaker 1: the rut?

434
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: So so, we have about seven years of data on

435
00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 2: this question. We haven't looked at it pecifically the way

436
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:06,160
Speaker 2: you're asking here, but it appears that when bulls lose

437
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 2: the velvet, they start heading for traditional running grounds, and

438
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:16,359
Speaker 2: the cows do too, and so they have areas that

439
00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:18,480
Speaker 2: they meet and it may be very different than where

440
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: they've spent the whole summer, either of them. If that

441
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:22,879
Speaker 2: makes sense.

442
00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:29,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say, just in my observation, the cows

443
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 1: seem to be closer to that running area, because it

444
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,000
Speaker 1: always seems like my bulls will up and leave, you know,

445
00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: go a mile in a direction. But I know that

446
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,600
Speaker 1: there was a majority of cows over there, and that's

447
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,400
Speaker 1: one of the reasons I always like when I'm scouting,

448
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:42,680
Speaker 1: not necessarily look for elk, not necessarily look for sign

449
00:23:42,680 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 1: at the time, but like, where are the rubs? The

450
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: rubs were like a great indicator of where they're running

451
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,920
Speaker 1: and where they're going to spend that September. But yeah,

452
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,080
Speaker 1: if they both move, I could see that. But I've

453
00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 1: always just assumed that the bulls are going to leave

454
00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,640
Speaker 1: their location to go find the cows. But you're saying

455
00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: that there is some research or indication that those cows

456
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: also may leave their area and go to like a

457
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,080
Speaker 1: neutral spot or a meetup spot.

458
00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 2: So the cow calf nursing grounds are often very similar

459
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,600
Speaker 2: to the running grounds, and so you're already going to

460
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 2: find cows that are often but cows will move to

461
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 2: those grounds as well.

462
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: Gotcha. That wins up real well with what I've seen,

463
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 1: and a lot of people get frustrated with only having

464
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: cows on their cameras and like, well, unless you're looking

465
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,959
Speaker 1: for specific bulls like just hang out there, because I

466
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,240
Speaker 1: think those bulls will eventually show.

467
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 2: In that area.

468
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 1: They may just be hanging out in the secluded type

469
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:35,920
Speaker 1: basin or whatnot, or non visible.

470
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: They may be three, four, ten miles away. We have

471
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: some that move. I think we have one bull that

472
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,200
Speaker 2: I looked at in particular that went seventeen miles from

473
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,560
Speaker 2: like the twentieth of August to the tenth of September.

474
00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's amazing. You know, it does you no good

475
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: to scout there, And that's why we always recommend scouting

476
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 1: is absolutely close to your season as possible because things

477
00:25:00,480 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: are going to change, you know, in addition to pressure

478
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:04,879
Speaker 1: on the landscape, you know, elk are just going to

479
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 1: move regardless.

480
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and Utah archery season is like August fifteenth to

481
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,960
Speaker 2: September seventeenth. And the bulls that are there, you know

482
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: as well as me, you scout them all summer and

483
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 2: you go, I'm gonna start opening day this canyon and

484
00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:24,639
Speaker 2: that's about the time they start losing velvet and there

485
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:26,359
Speaker 2: they may be there one or two days and then

486
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:29,200
Speaker 2: every one of them disappears from that canyon. You've scouted

487
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 2: it all summer.

488
00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: Yep, we've got some good, good intel from guys that

489
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: pay a lot of attention, like in Nevada. You know,

490
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: they've got such an early season where he saw fifty

491
00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: plus mature bowls within a tight little pocket, and they're

492
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,439
Speaker 1: there so early that he said, as you see the

493
00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: rut like wind up. By time it was over, there

494
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 1: were like two of those fifty bulls were left there

495
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:53,679
Speaker 1: or even in adjacent canyons. They just they all that

496
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 1: was their spot to you know, sit in the velvet

497
00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: and eat the best green or whatever they had going.

498
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: And then instantly the starts and they all filtered out

499
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: of there, besides a couple of bulls. And so you know,

500
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: we got some good data that those things just literally disappear.

501
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 2: There's really good biological reasons for that, and it's been

502
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 2: studied quite a bit. So cows of bulls have very

503
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,159
Speaker 2: different selective pressures. Cows are generally selecting habitat where they

504
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,919
Speaker 2: can feed their offspring, but also where their offspring are

505
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 2: protected from predators, and bulls don't really worry about predators

506
00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,080
Speaker 2: near as much, so they always go to the absolute

507
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 2: best habitat that they confind to put on mass. And

508
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 2: so because of those two different selective pressures they're offering

509
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:40,639
Speaker 2: separated in the summer.

510
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: I'm gonna ask one more question here on just stuff

511
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 1: that I want to know about the elkrat and what

512
00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:06,160
Speaker 1: I've perceived. And the question is which elk runs the herd?

513
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:08,679
Speaker 1: Is it? Is it the bowl the herd bowl, or

514
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: is it that lead cow? Or is it dual duty?

515
00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 1: Because in my opinion, i've seen like dual duty. But

516
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to listen to your answer and then maybe

517
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 1: throwing some of my experience there.

518
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,719
Speaker 2: That's a great question, and I don't know the answer.

519
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,719
Speaker 2: I do know that when they're not together, it's that

520
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 2: lead cow. Of course. In fact, we have we have cows.

521
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 2: Their social structures pretty fluid, meaning that the groups that

522
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: are living together. You may have these fifteen together today

523
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,040
Speaker 2: and four of them pick up and move over and

524
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,800
Speaker 2: join this group. And that's what I mean by fluid.

525
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 2: They change who they're with regularly. And we have out

526
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 2: the migrate in the winter, and where they migrate to

527
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,520
Speaker 2: is dictated by the lead cow. So I have we

528
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: have cows we've been monitoring for five years and they

529
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,320
Speaker 2: go to a different place every single winter, and it's

530
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 2: based on who they're with, and so I the a

531
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: dope female is very or the matriarch, whoever, the dominant

532
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 2: female in the group is the one that drives a

533
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 2: lot of it. I'm not sure about males. I think

534
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 2: it's got to be a combination because of that matriarchal

535
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 2: lineage is so wrong.

536
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's that's what I've seen, is it seems

537
00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: like as long as everything's going the way the bull

538
00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: wants it to, and he's not being pestered by satellite

539
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 1: cows or he's not being pressured by people, hunters, predators,

540
00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: the lead cow kind of leads the herd back into

541
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: their bedding area. She kind of leads them out to feed.

542
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,840
Speaker 1: She's the one that you know, gets up when it's

543
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 1: time to leave bed and come back out to feed.

544
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 1: And all of those what I would call just you know,

545
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 1: the daily decisions that that herd is making and what

546
00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: they're going through with Now where I see the bull,

547
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,920
Speaker 1: there have been times where you know, he rounds his

548
00:28:53,960 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: cows up and pushes them, you know, he gets force full,

549
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: He uses you know, horns, uses his stature or whatever

550
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: he needs to, and he will times force that herd

551
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: to go where he wants them to, whether it's to

552
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: escape danger, get him away from other bulls, whatever it

553
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 1: may be. I've also seen like the bull push the

554
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: cows off so that he can come back and either

555
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,600
Speaker 1: check out a bowl or confront a bowl that's pestering him.

556
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 1: So I feel like it's a dual relationship. But I

557
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,560
Speaker 1: think if we weren't to interject, and if we weren't

558
00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 1: to spook the bowl or predators weren't, the lead cow

559
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: is going to do the majority of the leading and

560
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: that herd, even during the rut, until that bull feels

561
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: pestered enough where there's a reason enough he wants to

562
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: move those cows, he physically does.

563
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: So I think that's generally true, that's supported by I mean,

564
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 2: nobody's really looked at who's driving it that I know

565
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,480
Speaker 2: of anyway, nobody's really looked at who's driving their movement

566
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: or their behavior during the rut. But during the rest

567
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: of the year it's the lead cow, and I just

568
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 2: I find it hard to think that that's how it

569
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:57,479
Speaker 2: goes for forty seven months of the year and then

570
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 2: five months of the year bull comes in and takes over. Ultimately,

571
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: ultimately the cow chooses to be with the bull or

572
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 2: to let the bull there. I mean, yep, she's the

573
00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:11,719
Speaker 2: final choice whether she's gonna mate with that bull or not.

574
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 2: He may be the dominant bull and not let any

575
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: of the bulls, but she only has to take one

576
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 2: step if she doesn't want to make may with him. Yep, yep.

577
00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 1: No, that just some general questions about the Elkret kind

578
00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: of what I've thought. And so now we're going to

579
00:30:26,160 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: run into rut timing, which is I botched the gestational

580
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: period there in the last time. Now we're really talking

581
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 1: about rut timing and when things start to get going,

582
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:38,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of it may be perceived. There may

583
00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: be people thinking the rut's going cranking at the end

584
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:43,760
Speaker 1: of August when we all know that's not happening, but

585
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: they're here in Beagle, so they is perceived that the

586
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,960
Speaker 1: rut's you know, going at that time. So in my opinion,

587
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: it's based on photo period. But I'm going to let

588
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,360
Speaker 1: you kind of jump in and and you kind of

589
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 1: already answered this, I guess above when we're talking about

590
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, getting that cap on the around at the

591
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:05,160
Speaker 1: optimal time and then going backwards based on gestation from that.

592
00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:09,520
Speaker 1: But in your opinion is that kicked off by photo period,

593
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:12,160
Speaker 1: which we you know, I think is a general consensus

594
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 1: which lets them know that they're two hundred and fifty days,

595
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 1: you know ahead, like that's their their their clock or

596
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 1: what other factors affect kicking off the rut.

597
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: So how it works JSON is is the evolutionary selective pressure.

598
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: If the female gives birth at the right time of year,

599
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,760
Speaker 2: she's more likely to have an offspring survived, and if

600
00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 2: a female gives birth at the wrong time of year,

601
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,320
Speaker 2: she's less likely. And so if the successful female continues

602
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 2: to be successful pretty soon that timing becomes the main

603
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: timing because she's had all the calves and the ones

604
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: at other times haven't. That's what drives that partriition timing,

605
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: and that's what drives the timing of the rut. So

606
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 2: it is. But but they don't say, oh, I need

607
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,160
Speaker 2: to give birth on June first, so I'm going to

608
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,160
Speaker 2: count back two hundred and fifty days. Of course they

609
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: don't do that, So they've tied it to what's called

610
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: a zite gaber that's zeit ge b e er, which

611
00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 2: is a German word that means timekeeper, and all animals

612
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: you and I have an internal clock. You're younger than me,

613
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: but I wake up every morning at like five minutes

614
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 2: after six, and that's an internal clock in me. And

615
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 2: that internal clock in mammals is regulated. In general, the

616
00:32:35,560 --> 00:32:41,000
Speaker 2: primary thing that's regulated by is photo period. The zite

617
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: gaber or the timekeeper or the clock setter is photo period.

618
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 2: It can be resources, it can be a few other things,

619
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,480
Speaker 2: but the primary thing in mammals is photo period. And

620
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 2: so that is what the brain is using to tell

621
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 2: a bull elk and his testosterone levels should increase. And

622
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 2: when his testosterol levels increase, that's when his antler's harden

623
00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: and he sheds the velvet, and that's when he starts

624
00:33:12,120 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 2: into his test he's in large and he starts searching

625
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,680
Speaker 2: for potential mates. And so yeah, it absolutely can happen

626
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:23,760
Speaker 2: at the end of August that he starts searching for

627
00:33:23,840 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: potential mates when there's none available.

628
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 1: Gotcha. And then to wind it back a little bit,

629
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: we talked about cows and their health affecting that are

630
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,959
Speaker 1: the cows they know by based on I'm not going

631
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: to even try to resay the word you did it

632
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: sound like lightsaber.

633
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:44,160
Speaker 2: Light?

634
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go there. The elks lightsaber,

635
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: So if you were to look at that, they know

636
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: they need to you know, based on that, which is

637
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 1: a lot to do with photo period and the light

638
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,760
Speaker 1: that they're getting. They know they need to try to

639
00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: be you know, two hundred and forty to two hundred

640
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: and fifty days ahead. But then their health also affects that,

641
00:34:04,320 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: so right, so it's a little bit of a balance,

642
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: like they know they need to come in now, but

643
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: it may take five, ten, fifteen, twenty days based on

644
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: them getting their health to a certain point. So they're

645
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: just constantly trying to their bodies telling them too, but

646
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 1: they just can't. Is that how that works?

647
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: So yes, yes, and no, so they don't ever make

648
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:26,520
Speaker 2: a conscious decision. Evolution has dictated that when days are

649
00:34:26,520 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 2: this long, that's the optimal time to go into estress,

650
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: and so or actually, when nights are this long, uninterrupted

651
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 2: darkness is what really regulates it. So when nights are

652
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 2: this long, that's what the optimal time to go into estress.

653
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:46,800
Speaker 2: But if a female carried a calf the whole summer,

654
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: or she nursed a calf the whole summer, she's still

655
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,120
Speaker 2: trying to recover and so she may be delayed if

656
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 2: she was successful in raising a calf. Same thing. If

657
00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 2: you're living in a marginal habitat and you had to

658
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: really severe winner and you had a calf, you're going

659
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:05,439
Speaker 2: to be delayed a little bit. If you're older, you're

660
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 2: always in poorer condition, and maybe it delayed a little bit.

661
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: So evolution is dictated the optimal, but there's a lot

662
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 2: of other forces pushing them off the optimal.

663
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:17,919
Speaker 1: Gotcha that makes that makes a lot of sense there

664
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,080
Speaker 1: in your opinion, And I know we see it a

665
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 1: lot more drastic in the deer population. But is the

666
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 1: rut timing based you know, we've already talked about it

667
00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:35,240
Speaker 1: being based on photo period, Which does that coordinate directly

668
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: with latitude or does latitude itself have anything to do

669
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: with that aside from the days being shorter or longer

670
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 1: than you know, a different latitude.

671
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 2: Sure, we we don't have a strong analysis on the

672
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 2: effect of latitude for ELK, although we've just developed a

673
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: mathematical model where we can look at timing of partration

674
00:35:58,000 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: based on movement patterns and so we can look at that.

675
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 2: But definitely in deer, uh, there is a strong Latin

676
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 2: latitudinal effect. So you would expect it to be similar

677
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:12,400
Speaker 2: in Elk as well, and that is as you go north,

678
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:18,320
Speaker 2: the rut becomes earlier, which I have a little counterintuitive maybe

679
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: for some people.

680
00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and and I mean it's very noticeable and deer

681
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,399
Speaker 1: you know, I was down in Mexico Cus deer hunting

682
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,479
Speaker 1: this year in the end of January, and the Cus

683
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,759
Speaker 1: deer were, you know, going crazy down there still, you know,

684
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: or I like the Arizona over the counter archery taking

685
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: meal deer rutting into December through the middle of January,

686
00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: and our ruts, you know, two months gone. But it

687
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 1: doesn't It seems like I can go down to New

688
00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 1: Mexico and Elk hunt and the ruts the same same,

689
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: you know, about the same spot as they are up

690
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,840
Speaker 1: here in Washington. Maybe a few days either way. But

691
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 1: I was I've always been curious if there's anything that

692
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: supports that latitude difference like it does on the deer side.

693
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: So yeah, I don't know. Have me back next year

694
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,560
Speaker 2: and I should be able to answer that question more completely.

695
00:37:04,120 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 2: Even in Utah, from northern part of the state to

696
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 2: the southern part of the state, there's a full two

697
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 2: weeks difference in deer yep. With the northern part of

698
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 2: the state, peak partraition is about June fifth for deer,

699
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 2: and in the southern part of the state it's like

700
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: June twenty third, June twenty second, So you bacnate from that,

701
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:31,399
Speaker 2: and so that I mean, that's that's a huge difference latitudinal.

702
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: I would expect there's some of that in elk, but

703
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: I don't know for sure.

704
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:41,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, to wrap up rut timing, are there any other

705
00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: factors that are you know, that correlate high enough that

706
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: that's worth talking about. Is it really just based on

707
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 1: that photo period and in the length of the night?

708
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: No. I think the one factor that that we haven't

709
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 2: touched on maybe enough. We have a pretty popular unit

710
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,600
Speaker 2: in Utah. It's called the Book Cliffs. It's a really

711
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: it's a limited entry deer unit, and it's a limited

712
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: entry elk unit, and it's what I would call summer

713
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 2: range limited habitat and get in effect, it's marginal habitat.

714
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,479
Speaker 2: There's just not a lot of summer range for elk,

715
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 2: and in dry years, elk are in relatively poor condition,

716
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 2: and only in the best of best years are they

717
00:38:22,200 --> 00:38:26,400
Speaker 2: in good condition. But the cool thing if if the

718
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 2: herd in general is in poor condition, the rut will

719
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 2: be much more spread out, and if the herd is

720
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 2: in really good condition, the rut will be much more punctuated.

721
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,880
Speaker 1: Does that make sense, Yeah, yeah, so that the the

722
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: elk don't have to spread out to find resources and

723
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 1: find food and you know, and spread out the cows.

724
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 1: They're they're all able to kind of be in that

725
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: prime prime area.

726
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 2: That but I think it's because they're all in good

727
00:38:55,160 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 2: enough condition to come into astris at the optimal date,

728
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: whereas in poor condition, they're just they're just straggling in

729
00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 2: getting to that critical condition they need to go into estrs.

730
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 2: And so let me give you an example. One year,

731
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: we had forty forty bursts that we were monitoring, and

732
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,879
Speaker 2: all forty of those bursts occurred I believe between May

733
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,799
Speaker 2: twenty fifth and like June twenty ninth, and the next

734
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 2: year bursts started on May fifteenth, and they all they

735
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:27,359
Speaker 2: went all the way into the middle of July. They

736
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,560
Speaker 2: were spread out over two full months, and that they

737
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: were in really bad condition the previous rut season. And

738
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:41,000
Speaker 2: so I just think that it can be spread out

739
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 2: a lot more in herds that are old or in

740
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 2: herds that are living in marginal habitat.

741
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,600
Speaker 1: That makes sense. Not that I would necessarily apply for

742
00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 1: units around that that idea, but it's it's great to

743
00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,880
Speaker 1: note that it does exist. And you know, you know,

744
00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: if you if you had an October season that went

745
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: into some of these marginal units, you may still hit

746
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: the rut. You know, I wouldn't say in the peak,

747
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,799
Speaker 1: but more in the height versus if you were in

748
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 1: a unit that has great summer habitat, the rut is

749
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:13,480
Speaker 1: over earlier. And now that we're talking about this, really

750
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: nobody ever believes me when I talk about Southwest Washington.

751
00:40:18,320 --> 00:40:20,760
Speaker 1: We set our muzzle atter season on the first Saturday

752
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:25,640
Speaker 1: of October. Our rut is. You can literally slam the

753
00:40:25,680 --> 00:40:28,759
Speaker 1: door on our rut for the most part by the

754
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:30,960
Speaker 1: end of like the end of September, first of October.

755
00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 1: And it's because we're in a rainforest, right. These elk

756
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:39,720
Speaker 1: don't migrate their local herds. They've got all the food

757
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: in the world with clearcuts and all the greenage around here.

758
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: But yet I firmly believe our rut is dang near

759
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: over on October first, Versus you go up in the

760
00:40:48,920 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: mountains or if I go, I'm like, man, the rut

761
00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,840
Speaker 1: goes so much longer out of state, you know, and

762
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: these other units are up in the mountains, and so

763
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: that really correlates with what I've seen on the ground

764
00:40:58,040 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 1: versus what I've seen in my backyard.

765
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,640
Speaker 2: That's interesting. That's I mean, I I dare hunt usually

766
00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:06,520
Speaker 2: the third week of October, and the rut is regularly

767
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:10,480
Speaker 2: still going at least dragglers in our mountains of Utah.

768
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 1: Yep, yeah, I mean I called a bull my wife's

769
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,879
Speaker 1: first bowl. I called in on October twenty ninth, called

770
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:18,880
Speaker 1: it in. And but it was in the mountains, you know,

771
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,920
Speaker 1: central mountains, the east slope of the Cascade Mountains, and

772
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:26,799
Speaker 1: it's just different unit, different area, bigger herds, a migratory

773
00:41:26,960 --> 00:41:29,400
Speaker 1: unit that has to live on feed grounds, you know,

774
00:41:29,440 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 1: in the winter versus our care have always just been done.

775
00:41:32,120 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 1: So that that's that makes sense on maybe why that correlates.

776
00:41:36,920 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: So I can't remember. We're going to talk about it,

777
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 2: but are we going to talk about pregnancy rates, which

778
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: would drive how strong the rut is?

779
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we were going to talk a little bit. I

780
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 1: know I have a note coming on on perceived strength

781
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: of the rut and then the cow is coming into estrus.

782
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 1: You know, sometimes only fifty percent of them. So we'll

783
00:41:53,280 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: get into that. Yeah, yeah, in just a little bit.

784
00:41:56,080 --> 00:41:58,319
Speaker 1: But matter of fact, the only question I have in

785
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: between those two, I wanted to ask about, you know,

786
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 1: one of the perceived things. We're out there hunting. We've

787
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: had a couple of good, high pressure days in a row,

788
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:08,919
Speaker 1: ruts really going good. It seems to be getting better

789
00:42:08,920 --> 00:42:10,680
Speaker 1: and better, and then you get a rain squall come

790
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:14,359
Speaker 1: in and uh, it shuts the rut down, or that's

791
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,080
Speaker 1: what's perceived the rut. The activity seems to be different,

792
00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: whether it's your hunters get lazier, they're not working as

793
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:23,800
Speaker 1: hard in your opinion, or or when I say your opinion,

794
00:42:23,920 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 1: is there data that supports the research that supports whether

795
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:28,439
Speaker 1: and how it affects the rut?

796
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 2: So not that I know of. Uh, again, that's a

797
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 2: question that we're asking right now. Absolutely, weather, it is

798
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:39,840
Speaker 2: going to affect activity patterns. I would say in my

799
00:42:39,920 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 2: hunting experience, it's exactly the opposite. The worse the weather,

800
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:49,400
Speaker 2: the more it's going. Really and so yeah, if the weather,

801
00:42:50,040 --> 00:42:53,960
Speaker 2: maybe because it's so warm here and the elk are

802
00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,520
Speaker 2: just overheated on during the rut September super hot. Still

803
00:42:58,360 --> 00:43:01,879
Speaker 2: they if it's a hot day by early morning, they're

804
00:43:01,920 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 2: back in the dark timber on the north slopes and

805
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,640
Speaker 2: they're bedded down. But if it starts snowing, they're active

806
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:08,399
Speaker 2: all day long.

807
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes itse I was told by an old

808
00:43:13,560 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 1: timer that I used to hunt with or hung around

809
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,880
Speaker 1: and got some tips and tricks from. He believed that

810
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: the rain washes away all the scent that's on the ground.

811
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 1: I don't know if I believe that or not, but

812
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: it was one of those things where it's like you

813
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: kind of scratch your head. Is that true? You know,

814
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 1: if cows are you know, close or they're pean you know,

815
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: all over the landscape, does that get that bowl fired

816
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 1: up and so he's bugling more as he travels around

817
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: or not? I don't know. I've I just kind of

818
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,120
Speaker 1: put that in there as far as the weather affecting

819
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:43,960
Speaker 1: the rut and potentially supports what I've seen, But but

820
00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 1: it sounds like you've seen the opposite, So it's it's

821
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: not necessarily maybe a factor.

822
00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: So yeah, definitely. Old factory is the way that el

823
00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 2: communicate and tell each other that I'm I'm approaching estris

824
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: or I'm an estress or I just ovulated. That's how

825
00:44:01,600 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: That's how they're communicating with each other. So anything that

826
00:44:06,080 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: changes the amount of old factory communication on the landscape

827
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 2: is going to change behavior. Having said that, they have

828
00:44:15,000 --> 00:44:19,439
Speaker 2: a pretty keen sense of smell, and I'm not once

829
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 2: the rut's going, I'm not sure that they're using scent

830
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 2: marking as much as before the rut. I think that

831
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 2: they've started to gather up their animals and they're checking

832
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,840
Speaker 2: their animals regularly. They have a fleming behavior like bison

833
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:37,520
Speaker 2: where they it's called a lip curl where they can

834
00:44:37,600 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: open up a whole bunch of receptors olfactory receptors in

835
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:44,360
Speaker 2: their nose and they can tell whether that female is

836
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 2: approaching asters or not. But they check them individually by.

837
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 1: Them yep, yep, yeah, where you see that bowl, get

838
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,200
Speaker 1: up and go nudge every cow out of her bed checker,

839
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: scent checker, and then move on.

840
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 2: To the next one.

841
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. So that's part one of our podcasts here with

842
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:01,879
Speaker 1: Brock McMillan on ELK. Stay tuned for part two coming

843
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:03,880
Speaker 1: at you next time on cutting the distance