Speaker 1: Hi, all, we have some exciting news to share. Paramount
Speaker 1: Plus has turned Burden of Guilt into a docuseries. You
Speaker 1: will get to meet the people involved, You'll hear from
Speaker 1: the people who have never spoken before, and you get
Speaker 1: to see where the story took place. We are so
Speaker 1: proud and excited to share it with you. You can
Speaker 1: stream it right now on Paramount Plus. Jan Berry Sandlin
Speaker 1: left his third trial convicted of the murder of Matthew Golder,
Speaker 1: and in two thousand and one, the Supreme Court of
Speaker 1: Georgia held up the verdict on appeal. He remains in
Speaker 1: a Florida prison and the consequences of his bad acts
Speaker 1: continued to reverberate. He will die in prison. I'm Nancy
Speaker 1: Glass and this is Burden of Guilt, Episode eight, The
Speaker 1: Last Word. Tracy Riquel's story started in nineteen seventy one
Speaker 1: and it isn't over yet. In the last episode, we
Speaker 1: learn more about the unfinished business that still weighs on her.
Speaker 1: Did Jan Barry Sandlin commit other murders and get away
Speaker 1: with them. I've reached out to Jan for an interview
Speaker 1: and he said yes, but the prison won't let us in.
Speaker 1: If that changes, we will update you. This series has
Speaker 1: been several years in the making, so we want to
Speaker 1: tie up some loose ends. Okay, Tracy Riquel, let's start here.
Speaker 1: You didn't go to Matthew's exhumation, and you were the
Speaker 1: reason it was happening, right, you wanted to explain why
Speaker 1: you didn't go. Matthew's exhumation was a pivotal point in
Speaker 1: the investigation and in Jan's conviction. The Medical Examiner's office
Speaker 1: exhumed Matthew's body with very little expectation of finding any
Speaker 1: remains to study after so many years. So just to
Speaker 1: set this up, here's what the district attorney and medical
Speaker 1: examiner told us.
Speaker 2: When we got there.
Speaker 3: It was a clear day, a little cool, and when
Speaker 3: I got to the grave site, the dirt had already
Speaker 3: been moved. I'd remember feeling a bit more somber. It
Speaker 3: seemed to me that we were disturbing a sleeping baby,
Speaker 3: and that really bothered me.
Speaker 1: Assistant District Attorney Leanne Manguon attended the exhumation. She tried
Speaker 1: to support Kathy as she watched everything unfold. Tracy Raquel
Speaker 1: was not there.
Speaker 4: I remember her being quite emotional, crying, and I kind
Speaker 4: of took my cues from her.
Speaker 5: She wanted to stand back, and that happened. I didn't
Speaker 5: go to the exhumation because there was already so much
Speaker 5: media attention, and I knew that Kathy was going with
Speaker 5: the district attorneys and we were barely on speaking terms
Speaker 5: if that, and I just felt like it would be disrespectful,
Speaker 5: you know, to go and what stand on the other
Speaker 5: side of the cemetery, away from her, right.
Speaker 1: You didn't want to call more attention or attention in
Speaker 1: the wrong way to what was going on.
Speaker 5: Correct, Yes, the titchen needed to be about Matthew's death,
Speaker 5: his homicide, and how are we going to take care
Speaker 5: of that? That needed to be the priority.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about the mistrial for a sec You were
Speaker 1: told you couldn't watch the trial or read about it,
Speaker 1: but you did catch a glimpse of your mother on
Speaker 1: TV and you told the prosecution about that because it
Speaker 1: was the right thing to do. Let's listen to what
Speaker 1: the judge said about that.
Speaker 6: There has been an egregious violation of the witness of
Speaker 6: frustration rule, which in the context of this case, is irreputable.
Speaker 1: You felt you were demonized for this.
Speaker 5: It's just how it was to trade. You know, everything
Speaker 5: from the mistrial happening, what media press. I mean, I
Speaker 5: think that was bigger story than the fact that this
Speaker 5: case got reopened. Was like, Oh, the girl who you
Speaker 5: know has spent all her life trying to get this
Speaker 5: case reopen, just ruined it because she can't follow rules.
Speaker 1: The press was really hard on you.
Speaker 5: We've got a case that's down the tubes at this point.
Speaker 4: January Sandlin's attorney exploded in court this morning, outraged after
Speaker 4: Tracy Raymon admitted she saw news coverage of her father's
Speaker 4: trial yesterday, despite a judge's order not to watch or
Speaker 4: read anything about it until it was over.
Speaker 7: I don't think that I have done anything wrong to
Speaker 7: effect this man's right.
Speaker 5: So it's just a lot of humiliation. And then you know,
Speaker 5: Jan's calling me from the prison on the phone twenty
Speaker 5: four to forty eight hours saying, ha ha, you know
Speaker 5: you were going to win the battle, but I'm going
Speaker 5: to win the war. I mean, he was laughing at me.
Speaker 1: On another topic, there was something the DA's office. Let
Speaker 1: you know, it was an action taken by the defense.
Speaker 5: Right after the mistrial happened. Jeff Brickman, Leanne and Jacom
Speaker 5: handed me a document, and it was a falsified subpoena
Speaker 5: for medical records for me.
Speaker 1: You were not notified that Corin Mal had subpoenaed your records.
Speaker 1: She had been looking for what Kathy told the staff
Speaker 1: at the psychiatric hospital where she tried to commit you
Speaker 1: when you were a teenager, and neither you nor Kathy
Speaker 1: would have ever agreed to release your files, right, So
Speaker 1: what was it like for you to find out about that?
Speaker 5: It felt like a betrayal all over again. It was,
Speaker 5: you know, hey, I can't defend this man, so I've
Speaker 5: got to get evidence about this child and try and
Speaker 5: get something done.
Speaker 1: Cracy Raquel ended up suing public defender Carine Mal, her office,
Speaker 1: and the hospital. The case was settled. You want to
Speaker 1: talk about the fact that Jan got married while all
Speaker 1: this was going on.
Speaker 5: I've heard people say in prison, but really, if he
Speaker 5: got married during the trial, what, Yeah, it was the
Speaker 5: most bizarre thing. This woman was coming to see him
Speaker 5: and her daughter, which turned out to be Jan's daughter,
Speaker 5: and I think she was only sixteen or seventeen, but
Speaker 5: they were at the courthouse that I remember Leanne and
Speaker 5: Jeff calling me and saying, you're not going to believe this.
Speaker 1: And what's even crazier, the media covered it like it
Speaker 1: was and a vent.
Speaker 6: Who gives this woman to be married?
Speaker 2: Is it Angela?
Speaker 6: Charlie, Charlene? Do you would you take Jane to be
Speaker 6: your witted husband? Do you take this man? Okay, say
Speaker 6: this for me. I take Charlene to be my widded wife,
Speaker 6: to have and to hold from this day forward, for
Speaker 6: better or worse, for richer or poorer, in sickness and help,
Speaker 6: and to love and to cherish till death. Do us
Speaker 6: for it.
Speaker 5: She was another one of those girls in high school
Speaker 5: who was just enamored with him or whatever.
Speaker 6: Ladies and gentlemhen, I present to you, mister and missus
Speaker 6: Janne Sadelin.
Speaker 4: I love him very much.
Speaker 7: I believe in his innocence, and I believe that there
Speaker 7: would bestly be a retrial, and when there is, they
Speaker 7: will have a turnaround authority.
Speaker 1: All these women met him in high school and still
Speaker 1: have a thing for him.
Speaker 5: I just don't understand that is a whole separate thinking
Speaker 5: that I am not qualified to discuss.
Speaker 1: Let's put Kathy's sister, your aunt June in the conversation,
Speaker 1: because she got you out of the house she gave
Speaker 1: you a job in her hair salon. She did a
Speaker 1: lot of wonderful things for you. She was very supportive,
Speaker 1: and then she disappeared.
Speaker 5: Well she did, and I love her still. She was
Speaker 5: somebody who was very important to me, and she was
Speaker 5: in a lot of ways of surrogate. Abuse is not
Speaker 5: a one generation thing. It has many generations. It takes
Speaker 5: many generations to get to certain places, and everybody in
Speaker 5: a family will handle that abuse differently. Kathy has always
Speaker 5: said that she grew up in an abusive environment.
Speaker 1: Do you think Aunt June would talk about any of
Speaker 1: the abuse because she was your advocate as a kid.
Speaker 1: We reached out to her.
Speaker 5: She said, oh, I'll do whatever you need. But when
Speaker 5: this podcast in the show was actually coming to fruition
Speaker 5: to panic, she's not going to be part of that.
Speaker 5: She's not going to discuss in a healthy way. For years,
Speaker 5: every time it would come up, she would roll her
Speaker 5: eyes and be like some of my aunts and uncle
Speaker 5: handled it with drug abuse addiction, and some are mentally
Speaker 5: not stable. Then you have some that just felt like, Hey,
Speaker 5: as far away as I can get from everything and
Speaker 5: as much money as I can make, and then I
Speaker 5: will be successful. And it doesn't exist. But there's a
Speaker 5: rule to that, and that rule is we don't ever
Speaker 5: talk about it because you can't go there.
Speaker 1: And Tracy Rickroll and her aunt were clearly not aligned
Speaker 1: on the unfinished business Tracy Rokel talked about in our
Speaker 1: last episode.
Speaker 5: She would say, you know, it's not your responsibility to
Speaker 5: worry about William David Corn. It's not your responsibility to
Speaker 5: worry about Nancy Tageer. You know, get over it, just
Speaker 5: let it go.
Speaker 1: Nancy Tegeter was Jan's first wife, and William David Korn
Speaker 1: was the police officer that Tracy Riquel believes may have
Speaker 1: been murdered by Jam. Here's an email we got from
Speaker 1: a listener. This is really fascinating. So this listener says,
Speaker 1: I'm not done with the series, so maybe this question
Speaker 1: is premature, But what's the deal with Ted Golder? Wasn't
Speaker 1: Matthew his biological son? I thought that was the reason
Speaker 1: Jan didn't care about him? So where was he during
Speaker 1: the trial when Matthew died? Wouldn't you have been at
Speaker 1: the hospital and the funeral. He's never mentioned except when
Speaker 1: Tracy Riquel did the paternity test. Wouldn't he want to
Speaker 1: put Jan Away for killing his kid. You know, we've
Speaker 1: all had that question. That's a really good question. Let's
Speaker 1: go back to episode four where Tracy Riquel first told
Speaker 1: us about meeting Ted Golder as an adult.
Speaker 7: He really wanted to know if I was his daughter.
Speaker 7: He asked if I would do a paternity test, which
Speaker 7: I sure now while we were waiting for the results
Speaker 7: to come back, and we talked daily, just about things
Speaker 7: and life and people, and it was a nice thing.
Speaker 7: The paternity test came back and he called and he said,
Speaker 7: you're not my daughter. And he said, you know what,
Speaker 7: you're a really nice woman. I wish the best for you,
Speaker 7: but I don't want anything else to do with you.
Speaker 7: You're not my child. And I was in I never
Speaker 7: heard from him again.
Speaker 1: But wasn't he upset about Matthew's death? Did he ever
Speaker 1: say anything to you about it?
Speaker 5: I mean the only thing he said was he always
Speaker 5: thought he did it too.
Speaker 1: That's really something because I think this listener is right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you'd think that he would be really happy
Speaker 1: about this and really angry about his son's death.
Speaker 5: You'd think you would. Yeah, maybe it all had to
Speaker 5: do with people were really afraid of Jan that is
Speaker 5: purely speculation because I just don't have any supporting information
Speaker 5: for that.
Speaker 1: Do you want to talk at all about your illness?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 7: Sure.
Speaker 5: I was diagnosed with systemic lupus in the early nineties,
Speaker 5: and it suspected that I've had my entire life. You know,
Speaker 5: you just don't have flares as often when you're young.
Speaker 5: It became really really severe two thousand, two thousand and one,
Speaker 5: and it kind of stayed that way. I can function
Speaker 5: for the most part, like you know, my body functions
Speaker 5: as far as like everything moves the way it's supposed
Speaker 5: to be, with the exception of my hands. I mean,
Speaker 5: but it is really funny. You know. My daughter has
Speaker 5: a friend who the first time I met her, she
Speaker 5: said later on to Goldie her mother, how does she
Speaker 5: do anything? Doesn't she needs hired help? And Goldie was like,
Speaker 5: what are you talking about? And she was like, she
Speaker 5: can't well how she functioned, And Goldie was like, Oh,
Speaker 5: don't worry, my mom's got a trick for everything, which
Speaker 5: is true. I still do pretty much everything I want
Speaker 5: to do. It's just might take me three hours to
Speaker 5: prep dinner where it would take everybody else a half hour.
Speaker 5: But I'm getting it done.
Speaker 1: You've heard a lot of Tracy Riquel's incredible story. It
Speaker 1: was important to end this series with the people who
Speaker 1: have really been Tercy Rikell's strength, support and focus of
Speaker 1: her life. Her husband and her children.
Speaker 5: Yeah two Goldie Hunter. Goldie's the oldest.
Speaker 1: Her husband is bart.
Speaker 2: I hadn't asked her to marry me yet, but she
Speaker 2: sat me down and she said, I've got some important
Speaker 2: things to tell you about me. She went through and
Speaker 2: explained some of her child history and the challenges that
Speaker 2: she's been through. The most important thing really wasn't so
Speaker 2: much in what she was telling me the experiences she's had,
Speaker 2: except that the toll that it had taken on her.
Speaker 2: She wanted to make sure that I was informed, like, hey,
Speaker 2: you know, there's still things that I have to work
Speaker 2: through and will continue to be things to work through.
Speaker 2: When she told me these things, I was just flabbergasted,
Speaker 2: but it made sense to me in a way. She
Speaker 2: is such a strong person, and only a strong person
Speaker 2: could have gone through these things and be the type
Speaker 2: of person that she is today.
Speaker 1: I've known Tracy Raquel for a few years now, and
Speaker 1: I can say that she is an innately maternal person.
Speaker 1: Caring and supportive. It's just who she is growing up,
Speaker 1: taking care of herself and others simply reinforced this. But
Speaker 1: becoming a mother without having any kind of example to
Speaker 1: follow presented new challenges.
Speaker 8: Here's Goldie definitely say my mom is a helicopter parent.
Speaker 8: She was always on top of everything we did or
Speaker 8: where we were at, where we were allowed to go.
Speaker 5: I was not prepared for the worry, the concern. Everything
Speaker 5: was a potential disaster for me.
Speaker 1: An expert will tell you that a child in Tracy
Speaker 1: Rickill's situation will either grow up to repeat the learned
Speaker 1: behavior or go in the complete opposite direction.
Speaker 5: You know, Given my childhood, everything was just she's going
Speaker 5: to get hurt, she's going to get lost, she's going
Speaker 5: to fall, she's going to break, you know anything.
Speaker 8: And there was times where it was very frustrating and
Speaker 8: I didn't understand as a child.
Speaker 5: I couldn't even go to the gym and leave her
Speaker 5: in the gym daycare because someone was not nice to
Speaker 5: her one time. And to me everything was just a catastrophe.
Speaker 1: But to her husband and kids, carrying that weight turn
Speaker 1: Tracy Riquel into a fully present and aware parent.
Speaker 2: My wife's experiences has made her a loving mother, one
Speaker 2: that has attention to detail, that is always aware of
Speaker 2: like how the children are feeling, and will always always
Speaker 2: be there for them.
Speaker 8: She gave us love because she didn't want to be
Speaker 8: what her parents were.
Speaker 2: I think that there's a level of fear too. They're
Speaker 2: never going to be out of her sight, which, in
Speaker 2: my mind, this can't be a bad thing. Those kids
Speaker 2: are her life.
Speaker 8: It's hard to think that she grew up that way,
Speaker 8: to go through that kind of abuse and grow up
Speaker 8: living and thinking that you were the cause of your
Speaker 8: brother's death or you did it, or have people blaming her,
Speaker 8: especially to hide the fact that somebody else like Jano
Speaker 8: is a murderer, you know, and a bad person.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 8: To practice them like that as her own mother, to
Speaker 8: not protect her child is horrifying because as an adult
Speaker 8: she's the opposite.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 8: She loves us so much and can never imagine hurting us.
Speaker 1: A few years after Goldie was born, Trocy Raquel welcomed
Speaker 1: her second child, and Hire was born.
Speaker 5: I was twenty seven.
Speaker 9: My mother was a bit overprotective, but seeing where she
Speaker 9: came from, it made sense.
Speaker 1: That's hunter.
Speaker 9: I don't know if there's ever a specific moment where
Speaker 9: I became aware of my mother's childhood. I think it
Speaker 9: was just something that we knew from, you know, snippets
Speaker 9: of different stories that she might have told or something.
Speaker 5: First of all, I had to acknowledge my own abuse
Speaker 5: and then get to a place where I'm comfortable to
Speaker 5: talk about that with my children.
Speaker 8: Oh, it's horrifying. I've seen photos of my mom where,
Speaker 8: you know, she's covered in bruises, you know, on her
Speaker 8: arms and her legs, and she's two or three years old.
Speaker 8: I meet people every day of my life, oh I
Speaker 8: was abused or I had a rough childhood.
Speaker 7: I had.
Speaker 8: This happened to me, not once if I ever heard
Speaker 8: my mom use that as an excuse.
Speaker 9: There was a lot of anger, sadness. Sorry, give me
Speaker 9: one second to compose myself. The fact that she had
Speaker 9: to go through that, it is it's hard to think about.
Speaker 9: I mean, I love my mom, but death and the
Speaker 9: fact that she ended up in a good place and
Speaker 9: hunted down justice, fought for justice is that's I guess
Speaker 9: the best emotion I can bring out of that is
Speaker 9: pride that she ended up in a good spot.
Speaker 5: They both have had their sweet moments showing love and
Speaker 5: respect for me.
Speaker 9: When it comes to Matthew, I light a candle on
Speaker 9: his birthday, it's just become, I guess, a ritual in
Speaker 9: my life.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 9: He didn't get to be here very long, so if anything,
Speaker 9: at least people can remember him.
Speaker 5: Hunter was in the fifth grade and he had a
Speaker 5: fifth grade teacher who said, you have to do a
Speaker 5: report on a famous person. What is the definition of famous. Well,
Speaker 5: they had to have been in the news for fifteen minutes.
Speaker 5: And so Hunter did his report on me and my
Speaker 5: case with Matthew. And Hunter's teacher was from Atlanta and
Speaker 5: was in Atlanta when the case happened. And so Hunter's
Speaker 5: up there and he didn't say this is my mom.
Speaker 5: He's just doing this story about this person, you know.
Speaker 5: And the teacher's like, I know this, you know. And
Speaker 5: then at the end Hunter says, and oh, by the way,
Speaker 5: it's my mom, you know what I mean. And then
Speaker 5: they're like, oh what. So I thought that was really sweet.
Speaker 8: My whole life, my mom had always said Matthew was
Speaker 8: our guardian angel. There were times in my life where
Speaker 8: there was darkness or something bad could have happened or
Speaker 8: should have happened, and something, maybe it was an angel,
Speaker 8: was like a good feeling, and maybe it was him,
Speaker 8: you know, looking over us. To the point that I
Speaker 8: tattooed his name on my shoulder because I you know,
Speaker 8: I never met him, but I did feel like he
Speaker 8: was a big part of my life and watching over me.
Speaker 1: Terracy re Kills concern for her baby brother, Matthew spilled
Speaker 1: over into other areas of her life.
Speaker 9: My mother was very much give the shirt off your
Speaker 9: back for another person. That's always who she's been. She'll
Speaker 9: probably live the rest of her life like that. A
Speaker 9: lot of who I am stems from her ideals, her
Speaker 9: moral code. She inspired me from a young age. She
Speaker 9: taught me how a man should be and how a
Speaker 9: man should treat a woman, you know, being a good
Speaker 9: human being, looking out for others.
Speaker 5: When Hunter was in the second grade, he would take
Speaker 5: a snack to school and then he would come home
Speaker 5: and he would be hungry. And then the next day
Speaker 5: he would say, Mom, I need three stacks. I don't understand.
Speaker 5: And he was like, Joey and Sarah and Michelle don't
Speaker 5: have snacks, and so and so and so and so
Speaker 5: don't have lunch. So I need snat so you would
Speaker 5: just give it all away. And that was just him.
Speaker 9: The one thing that still sticks with me to this day.
Speaker 9: I guess, like you could say her motto, if you
Speaker 9: see a problem and you don't do anything about it,
Speaker 9: you're part of that problem.
Speaker 8: There was a time when I was a child, we
Speaker 8: lived in not a great neighborhood. I remember there was
Speaker 8: a group of people that were going to assault a man,
Speaker 8: and I do remember my mom going outside and had
Speaker 8: the police on the phone. It was a very dangerous situation,
Speaker 8: and nobody else wanted to help. And she was brave
Speaker 8: and calling and not afraid. And she said they had
Speaker 8: crowbars and things like that. She very well could have
Speaker 8: been hurt in that moment, and she had no fear,
Speaker 8: no fear.
Speaker 2: She has come a long way in her life, and
Speaker 2: I think that she's very modest. She downplays a lot
Speaker 2: of things. I think that's the type of person she is.
Speaker 2: She's gotten to a place now for she's very mindful
Speaker 2: and tries to think of others.
Speaker 5: It has only been in the past three or four
Speaker 5: years that I realize you've got to heal, and the
Speaker 5: healing part sometimes is the most terrifying thing. But it's
Speaker 5: the risk because in order to go through that, you
Speaker 5: are gonna fall apart and people are not going to
Speaker 5: stand by you. And there's people who are going to say,
Speaker 5: oh my gosh, get over, I'm sick of here. And
Speaker 5: this shame is this huge thing that's like a part
Speaker 5: of everything. Well, I got to get rid of my
Speaker 5: own shame.
Speaker 2: The bottom line is anytime that Raca Raquel has a
Speaker 2: moment of guilt, the first thing I asked is what
Speaker 2: is it that you feel guilty for? You were the
Speaker 2: victim in this case.
Speaker 1: What has it been like for you to do this podcast?
Speaker 5: This has been one of the single most important things
Speaker 5: that I have done for myself and my family. It's
Speaker 5: really about talking about what happened to me and figuring
Speaker 5: out who I am and who I want to be,
Speaker 5: not based on somebody else's idea or based on some
Speaker 5: history of pain and trauma, but letting it all go.
Speaker 5: So for me, this has been a revelation, an epiphany.
Speaker 1: But it hasn't been easy, no.
Speaker 5: Oh no, but I am freer every day because of it.
Speaker 1: Is there something you want people to know?
Speaker 5: One of the most profound things that I learned as
Speaker 5: a very very young child. Is you have a choice,
Speaker 5: and I don't have to be anything you say I am.
Speaker 5: I don't have to be a failure or loser, or
Speaker 5: not pretty enough or not smart enough or any of
Speaker 5: those things. I mean, I've had a lot of good
Speaker 5: people in my life, and over the past three or
Speaker 5: four years, I have had someone very close to me
Speaker 5: who has really helped who Well, it's you. Can I say.
Speaker 1: That it is. I'm honored to her that I'm surprised
Speaker 1: because I find you very inspirational and I think what
Speaker 1: we've been for each other is sort of a sounding
Speaker 1: board on these issues. I think it's been healthy for
Speaker 1: both of us, and I've certainly, as I said, learned
Speaker 1: so much from you and admire you for your strength.
Speaker 1: I think we should give Tracy, Riquel's husband Bart the
Speaker 1: last word.
Speaker 2: My wife as part of the reason I fell in
Speaker 2: love with her. She's a hero to me.
Speaker 1: Stay tuned for Burden of Guilty documentary, coming in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty four and airing only on Paramount Plus. If you
Speaker 1: would like to reach out to the Burden of Guilt team,
Speaker 1: email us at Burden of guiltpod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1: That's Burden of Guilt pod at gmail dot com. If
Speaker 1: you or someone you know is worried about maltreatment or
Speaker 1: suspect that a child is being abused or neglected, call
Speaker 1: the Child Help National Child Abuse Hotline. You can call
Speaker 1: or text one eight hundred four a child that's one
Speaker 1: eight hundred four two two four four five three. One
Speaker 1: way to show support is by subscribing to our show
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review
Speaker 1: Burden of Guilt. Five star reviews go a long way,
Speaker 1: A big thank you for listening, and also be sure
Speaker 1: to check us out and follow us on Instagram at
Speaker 1: Glass Podcasts. Burden of Guilt is a production of Glass Podcasts,
Speaker 1: a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 1: The show is hosted and executive produced by me Nancy Glass,
Speaker 1: written and produced by Andrea Gunning and Carrie Hartman, also
Speaker 1: produced by Ben Fetterman and associate producer Kristin Melchiori. Our
Speaker 1: iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crincheck. Special thanks
Speaker 1: to Tracy Riquel Burns and her husband Bart. Audio editing
Speaker 1: and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Burden of Guild's theme composed
Speaker 1: by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and
Speaker 1: for more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.