1 00:00:15,236 --> 00:00:29,636 Speaker 1: Pushkin. On April ninth, two twenty one, the nation's eyes 2 00:00:29,676 --> 00:00:33,236 Speaker 1: were on Bessemer, Alabama, the scene of the latest battle 3 00:00:33,436 --> 00:00:37,676 Speaker 1: for labor rights. Officials from the National Labor Relations Board 4 00:00:37,756 --> 00:00:41,556 Speaker 1: began unsealing mail in ballots from three thousand, two hundred 5 00:00:41,596 --> 00:00:46,956 Speaker 1: and fifteen employees at an Amazon warehouse located in central Alabama. 6 00:00:47,276 --> 00:00:51,076 Speaker 1: The National Labor Relations Board has mailed ballots to nearly 7 00:00:51,156 --> 00:00:55,236 Speaker 1: six thousand Amazon workers will decide whether to join the 8 00:00:55,316 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 1: Retail Wholesale and Department Store Union. Months of multiracial organizing 9 00:01:01,676 --> 00:01:04,596 Speaker 1: called for a union that could secure a living wage, 10 00:01:04,916 --> 00:01:08,636 Speaker 1: job security, and safety for all workers at the warehouse. 11 00:01:09,636 --> 00:01:13,036 Speaker 1: In the end, pro union workers lost the battle for 12 00:01:13,236 --> 00:01:17,996 Speaker 1: unionization against the second largest private employer in the United 13 00:01:18,036 --> 00:01:22,396 Speaker 1: States by more than a two to one margin. Union 14 00:01:22,436 --> 00:01:25,916 Speaker 1: representatives filed a challenge to the results with the National 15 00:01:25,996 --> 00:01:31,396 Speaker 1: Labor Relations Board. Stewart Applebaum, the president of the Retail 16 00:01:31,516 --> 00:01:36,196 Speaker 1: Wholesale and Department Store Union, said Amazon workers felt intimidated. 17 00:01:36,636 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: What I think you saw in the results, despite the 18 00:01:39,956 --> 00:01:44,116 Speaker 1: number of people who signed cards, was a real fair 19 00:01:44,596 --> 00:01:48,076 Speaker 1: that they were going to lose their jobs if they 20 00:01:48,196 --> 00:01:53,796 Speaker 1: voted for the union. Fear busted up another potential union, 21 00:01:54,276 --> 00:01:58,676 Speaker 1: but it wasn't just fear. One worker asserted, Amazon is 22 00:01:58,716 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 1: just a game with rules learned. The rules, play the game, 23 00:02:03,596 --> 00:02:07,676 Speaker 1: move up, win. The truth is the rules are not 24 00:02:07,796 --> 00:02:11,436 Speaker 1: set up for most workers to win. If they were, 25 00:02:11,756 --> 00:02:15,796 Speaker 1: economic inequality would not be so widespread, there would not 26 00:02:15,916 --> 00:02:19,756 Speaker 1: be so many people working full time in still drowning 27 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:30,356 Speaker 1: and poverty. I'm abramax Kendy, and this is b anti racist. 28 00:02:31,876 --> 00:02:35,916 Speaker 1: What has prevented workers from winning has not just been 29 00:02:36,036 --> 00:02:42,116 Speaker 1: union busting, fear in individualism, but racism. In the past, 30 00:02:42,236 --> 00:02:46,316 Speaker 1: some labor struggles ignored the racism faced by workers of color, 31 00:02:47,076 --> 00:02:50,436 Speaker 1: but not the campaign in Bessemer, where eighty five percent 32 00:02:50,516 --> 00:02:55,996 Speaker 1: of the workers at the Amazon facility were black. Mona Darby, 33 00:02:56,356 --> 00:03:01,396 Speaker 1: a poultry processing plant worker, helped lead the unionization effort. 34 00:03:02,156 --> 00:03:04,516 Speaker 1: She told The New York Times that one day, a 35 00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 1: white man approached her and said Amazon didn't want a union, 36 00:03:09,236 --> 00:03:12,676 Speaker 1: that he didn't want her black ass on our property. 37 00:03:13,236 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 1: According to Darby, she responded, You're going to see my 38 00:03:16,796 --> 00:03:21,836 Speaker 1: black ass out here all day every day. Leaders confronted 39 00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,836 Speaker 1: race and racism head on as they pushed for the 40 00:03:24,916 --> 00:03:28,476 Speaker 1: labor rights of these workers. One of the leaders called 41 00:03:28,516 --> 00:03:31,716 Speaker 1: the drive as much of a civil rights battle as 42 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:35,996 Speaker 1: a labor battle. The conjoining of the civil rights and 43 00:03:36,156 --> 00:03:40,916 Speaker 1: labor battles is as old as black labor organizing. Well 44 00:03:40,996 --> 00:03:44,916 Speaker 1: into the mid twentieth century, white lead unions excluded their 45 00:03:44,956 --> 00:03:49,276 Speaker 1: black peers. The racism within the labor movement compelled black 46 00:03:49,316 --> 00:03:52,636 Speaker 1: workers to form their own unions like the Brotherhood of 47 00:03:52,636 --> 00:03:56,996 Speaker 1: Sleeping car Porters, and then as the unions were desegregating 48 00:03:57,076 --> 00:04:00,596 Speaker 1: during the Civil Rights era, they were fighting for their 49 00:04:00,676 --> 00:04:05,236 Speaker 1: right to live. Over the last few decades, there has 50 00:04:05,276 --> 00:04:08,116 Speaker 1: been an all out attack on two of the institutions 51 00:04:08,156 --> 00:04:11,916 Speaker 1: that were most crucial to the prosperity and defensive workers 52 00:04:11,996 --> 00:04:17,156 Speaker 1: after the Great Depression, the government and the union. The 53 00:04:17,236 --> 00:04:22,036 Speaker 1: effects linger. In twenty twenty, just shy of eleven percent 54 00:04:22,076 --> 00:04:26,436 Speaker 1: of American workers were members of a union, but Bessemer 55 00:04:26,516 --> 00:04:30,276 Speaker 1: became the beacon for a renewed drive among American workers 56 00:04:30,276 --> 00:04:34,716 Speaker 1: to unionize. Though the union effort did not succeed, the 57 00:04:34,836 --> 00:04:38,516 Speaker 1: union is re emerging, and when the union is re emerging, 58 00:04:39,156 --> 00:04:47,956 Speaker 1: in anti racist America is emerging. Welcome to Be Anti Racist, 59 00:04:48,436 --> 00:04:53,076 Speaker 1: an action podcast where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, 60 00:04:53,156 --> 00:04:57,476 Speaker 1: and abolish racism, How to save humanity from the divisiveness 61 00:04:57,636 --> 00:05:02,636 Speaker 1: of racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy. 62 00:05:03,036 --> 00:05:06,356 Speaker 1: How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist 63 00:05:06,396 --> 00:05:10,836 Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti ti racist power and policy. 64 00:05:11,556 --> 00:05:14,756 Speaker 1: On be anti Racist, we discuss how to make the 65 00:05:14,836 --> 00:05:18,996 Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern 66 00:05:19,076 --> 00:05:26,436 Speaker 1: humans have never known, A just an equitable world. You ready, 67 00:05:26,556 --> 00:05:44,836 Speaker 1: Let's roll race and gender and Citizenship's status determines wages, 68 00:05:45,236 --> 00:05:48,636 Speaker 1: it determines employment opportunities, It determines a kind of labor 69 00:05:48,716 --> 00:05:54,436 Speaker 1: you do, whether it's skilled, unskilled, unprotected, unpaid, paid. All 70 00:05:54,516 --> 00:05:59,396 Speaker 1: this is shaped by value racial value. Historian Robin DG. 71 00:05:59,556 --> 00:06:03,756 Speaker 1: Kelly's work has been essential to analyzing the racial character 72 00:06:03,836 --> 00:06:08,036 Speaker 1: of capitalism, or what scholars are not calling racial capitalism. 73 00:06:08,756 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 1: Doctor Kelly is the Gary B. Nash Professor of History 74 00:06:13,116 --> 00:06:17,876 Speaker 1: at UCLA. He's written several books and articles that grapple 75 00:06:17,956 --> 00:06:23,116 Speaker 1: with labor rights, black radicalism, and anti racist possibilities. They 76 00:06:23,156 --> 00:06:27,996 Speaker 1: include Hammer and Hoe, Alabama Communists during the Great Depression, 77 00:06:28,596 --> 00:06:34,436 Speaker 1: and one of my favorites, Freedom Dreams The Black Radical Imagination. 78 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,596 Speaker 1: Doctor Kelly and I sat down recently to discuss the 79 00:06:38,716 --> 00:06:43,196 Speaker 1: past present in future of the multiracial labor movement in 80 00:06:43,236 --> 00:06:49,316 Speaker 1: the United States, we had Bessemer on our minds. Doctor Kelly, 81 00:06:49,356 --> 00:06:53,476 Speaker 1: I've been looking forward to this conversation for quite some time. 82 00:06:53,876 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 1: I can't tell you what an honor is for me 83 00:06:56,116 --> 00:06:58,676 Speaker 1: to be talking to you. You know, I feel like 84 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:00,996 Speaker 1: we've had a connection going way back. I feel like 85 00:07:01,036 --> 00:07:04,036 Speaker 1: I was almost at your graduation in two thousands, you know, 86 00:07:04,956 --> 00:07:08,076 Speaker 1: listening to you first, I just want to ask you 87 00:07:08,836 --> 00:07:13,396 Speaker 1: how you're feeling. You're reflecting on what seems to be 88 00:07:13,476 --> 00:07:17,756 Speaker 1: just a critical moment on the life of this nation, 89 00:07:17,956 --> 00:07:20,156 Speaker 1: in the life of black people, in the life of 90 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:23,796 Speaker 1: labor organizing, in the life of so many elements of 91 00:07:23,796 --> 00:07:27,196 Speaker 1: our society. It's interesting because, you know, it gets this 92 00:07:27,316 --> 00:07:30,956 Speaker 1: question all the time, going back to Rachiard Brooks, going 93 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:34,556 Speaker 1: back to Frederick Douglas. You must be honest, what does 94 00:07:34,596 --> 00:07:37,956 Speaker 1: it mean to live in society that pretends to be 95 00:07:38,236 --> 00:07:45,076 Speaker 1: a democracy and you act according to the rules, and 96 00:07:45,236 --> 00:07:48,436 Speaker 1: you still get killed, you still lose your job, you're 97 00:07:48,476 --> 00:07:52,996 Speaker 1: still broke, you still disrespect it no matter what. It's 98 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:55,356 Speaker 1: the sort of thing that could produce a level of 99 00:07:55,436 --> 00:07:58,036 Speaker 1: pessimists in which I haven't gotten there yet. But it 100 00:07:58,196 --> 00:08:03,716 Speaker 1: also reveals that we refuse to be pessimistic. Yeah, we 101 00:08:03,836 --> 00:08:09,036 Speaker 1: just refuse our protests, our struggle, our resistance, our signs 102 00:08:09,516 --> 00:08:13,716 Speaker 1: that we not only can win the semblance of justice, 103 00:08:14,436 --> 00:08:17,396 Speaker 1: but we don't have a choice. We just have to fight. 104 00:08:18,076 --> 00:08:22,356 Speaker 1: Not long ago, there was just an incredible effort to 105 00:08:22,516 --> 00:08:28,396 Speaker 1: organize a union Amazon site Deep South. And obviously that 106 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:33,796 Speaker 1: unionization effort was not successful. But at this point in time, 107 00:08:33,836 --> 00:08:37,076 Speaker 1: reflecting on that, how would you frame it? I see 108 00:08:37,076 --> 00:08:41,636 Speaker 1: what happened in Bessemer as a huge victory. The fact 109 00:08:41,676 --> 00:08:46,316 Speaker 1: that they could even begin to organize workers at this 110 00:08:46,476 --> 00:08:51,156 Speaker 1: highly police, predominantly black, predominant female plant in the Deep South, 111 00:08:51,796 --> 00:08:54,876 Speaker 1: and they had less than a year. I mean they 112 00:08:54,916 --> 00:08:59,236 Speaker 1: began organizing right at the beginning of the pandemic. That's 113 00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:03,916 Speaker 1: no time to really build momentum. Amazon spend millions of 114 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 1: dollars to beat back to union. But more importantly, there 115 00:09:08,116 --> 00:09:10,756 Speaker 1: was a way in which a generated solidarity not just 116 00:09:10,836 --> 00:09:13,476 Speaker 1: in the US, but around the world. All this attention 117 00:09:14,116 --> 00:09:16,836 Speaker 1: was on what's going to happen in Bessemer. In bringing 118 00:09:16,876 --> 00:09:20,436 Speaker 1: attention to it, people are now talking about things like 119 00:09:20,836 --> 00:09:23,636 Speaker 1: what are the labor reforms we need. You know, we're 120 00:09:23,636 --> 00:09:29,196 Speaker 1: both historians, so we know that victory and defeat never 121 00:09:29,596 --> 00:09:35,036 Speaker 1: capture what actually happens. They're just like two narrow So 122 00:09:35,076 --> 00:09:39,436 Speaker 1: many struggles that appeared to be great victories end up 123 00:09:39,436 --> 00:09:44,436 Speaker 1: producing reforms that actually don't advance struggle, and vice versa. 124 00:09:44,596 --> 00:09:48,836 Speaker 1: Things that seem to be defeats actually become mobilizing tools 125 00:09:49,356 --> 00:09:53,276 Speaker 1: lessons for ongoing struggle. But the one thing that's consistent 126 00:09:53,276 --> 00:09:56,996 Speaker 1: in all this is that the struggle doesn't stop. I've 127 00:09:57,036 --> 00:09:59,996 Speaker 1: never seen it happened where a group is defeated and like, 128 00:10:00,036 --> 00:10:02,556 Speaker 1: you know what, we'll just give up, you know, it's 129 00:10:02,596 --> 00:10:07,036 Speaker 1: not worth it. I've never seen that in history, Like 130 00:10:07,076 --> 00:10:10,956 Speaker 1: it just never happens. And that's consistent aspect of all 131 00:10:10,996 --> 00:10:13,756 Speaker 1: these struggles that we just keep moving like has been 132 00:10:13,836 --> 00:10:15,916 Speaker 1: in Harding says, you know, it's like a river. It 133 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:22,316 Speaker 1: is fascinating because even the best summer unionization effort seemed 134 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:27,276 Speaker 1: to me to also shine a light on other labor 135 00:10:27,756 --> 00:10:31,596 Speaker 1: movements that had been happening for years that nobody was 136 00:10:31,636 --> 00:10:36,436 Speaker 1: talking about, that nobody was recognizing what should people be 137 00:10:37,076 --> 00:10:41,796 Speaker 1: looking for to understand it and how should people be 138 00:10:41,956 --> 00:10:45,716 Speaker 1: seeking to support it? Right? I mean Alabama is a 139 00:10:45,796 --> 00:10:49,156 Speaker 1: unique place. It has a long history. We often right 140 00:10:49,236 --> 00:10:54,356 Speaker 1: off the South as reactionary, backward. There's all these epithets 141 00:10:54,396 --> 00:10:56,956 Speaker 1: that you give from liberal media in particular exactly, but 142 00:10:56,996 --> 00:11:02,516 Speaker 1: the South has been the heartland of American radicalism period. Yes, 143 00:11:02,716 --> 00:11:06,116 Speaker 1: the one place where social democracy might have actually happened 144 00:11:06,236 --> 00:11:08,556 Speaker 1: was in the South. I mean, Alabama has a long 145 00:11:08,636 --> 00:11:14,396 Speaker 1: history mine workers, steel workers, domestic workers, sharecroppers, and they've 146 00:11:14,396 --> 00:11:19,236 Speaker 1: been fighting back and setting a labor agenda even during 147 00:11:19,276 --> 00:11:22,756 Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties when certain categories of labor like role 148 00:11:22,836 --> 00:11:26,996 Speaker 1: workers just were not covered by the new deal, not 149 00:11:27,156 --> 00:11:30,716 Speaker 1: covered by National Labor Relations Board or minimum wage. And 150 00:11:30,796 --> 00:11:34,356 Speaker 1: you know, it's true that they fought. Sometimes they lost, 151 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:38,516 Speaker 1: but they persevered. So in terms of this new labor movement, 152 00:11:38,676 --> 00:11:44,036 Speaker 1: these union efforts, I would argue are linked to an 153 00:11:44,076 --> 00:11:49,516 Speaker 1: older tradition of community based organizing because they don't succeed 154 00:11:49,996 --> 00:11:55,996 Speaker 1: without community support. When Walmart workers in Greensboro, North Carolina, 155 00:11:56,156 --> 00:11:59,236 Speaker 1: were trying to organize to get a living wage, it 156 00:11:59,356 --> 00:12:03,556 Speaker 1: was the city council and black ministers and black civil 157 00:12:03,636 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 1: rights organizations that supported them. In LA, when they're trying 158 00:12:07,236 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 1: to shut down the Vanni's plant was next and black 159 00:12:09,836 --> 00:12:13,036 Speaker 1: community that supported them. So in other words, people who 160 00:12:13,116 --> 00:12:15,236 Speaker 1: may not work in a plant will work in the shop, 161 00:12:15,236 --> 00:12:18,276 Speaker 1: will work at the store. Those kinds of community based 162 00:12:18,396 --> 00:12:21,076 Speaker 1: links are very important, and if we don't have those, 163 00:12:21,436 --> 00:12:25,476 Speaker 1: labor can't win. We're told that unions are the problems. 164 00:12:25,996 --> 00:12:30,596 Speaker 1: Unions are the takers capital, they're the makers. And so 165 00:12:31,116 --> 00:12:35,196 Speaker 1: this is beginning to change, and it comes from the bottom, 166 00:12:35,276 --> 00:12:44,796 Speaker 1: the very bottom of the labor for us. I'm Robin D. G. Kelly. 167 00:12:45,036 --> 00:12:49,436 Speaker 1: You're listening to be anti racist with Ibram x Candy. 168 00:12:55,116 --> 00:12:59,636 Speaker 1: In many ways, the union and the debate around the 169 00:12:59,756 --> 00:13:04,316 Speaker 1: union has long been obviously a fraud issue, and so 170 00:13:04,476 --> 00:13:08,796 Speaker 1: you have people who don't know what to think about unionization. 171 00:13:09,636 --> 00:13:12,396 Speaker 1: And what's also clouding maybe even their picture of the 172 00:13:12,516 --> 00:13:15,356 Speaker 1: union is the police union. Oh god, yeah. I think 173 00:13:15,396 --> 00:13:17,196 Speaker 1: in many ways we have to get back down to 174 00:13:17,276 --> 00:13:19,796 Speaker 1: the basics about what a union is and what a 175 00:13:19,876 --> 00:13:22,076 Speaker 1: union is supposed to do. How would you sort of 176 00:13:22,076 --> 00:13:25,516 Speaker 1: respond to that person who they've heard their whole lives 177 00:13:25,556 --> 00:13:29,116 Speaker 1: indeed that unions are takers. Now they see police unions 178 00:13:29,156 --> 00:13:33,556 Speaker 1: defending cops who killed people. Right, So let's begin at 179 00:13:33,596 --> 00:13:37,516 Speaker 1: the beginning. There was a time in the early twentieth 180 00:13:37,516 --> 00:13:41,756 Speaker 1: century when there was an effort to create a police union. 181 00:13:42,116 --> 00:13:47,396 Speaker 1: So in nineteen eighteen, police officers who were definitely underpaid, 182 00:13:47,916 --> 00:13:50,516 Speaker 1: it was definitely dangerous work. They had to pay for 183 00:13:50,516 --> 00:13:52,996 Speaker 1: their own uniforms, had to pay for everything, and they 184 00:13:52,996 --> 00:13:57,516 Speaker 1: went on strike. But the police strike of nineteen eighteen 185 00:13:58,156 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 1: was much closer to what we think of as a 186 00:14:00,156 --> 00:14:03,996 Speaker 1: labor strike. They had solidarity with other workers. And these 187 00:14:04,036 --> 00:14:10,196 Speaker 1: were the days when police were sometimes taking stands against 188 00:14:10,836 --> 00:14:14,276 Speaker 1: capital in favor of labor. There were times when police 189 00:14:14,316 --> 00:14:16,996 Speaker 1: were like, you know what, these are my cousins. They 190 00:14:17,076 --> 00:14:18,956 Speaker 1: work at the plant. We're not going to go beat 191 00:14:18,996 --> 00:14:22,156 Speaker 1: them up. In other words, the police are supposed to 192 00:14:22,156 --> 00:14:26,276 Speaker 1: do the state's work in private capital's work of repressing 193 00:14:26,396 --> 00:14:30,596 Speaker 1: labor workers. Right, they couldn't do it. And so what 194 00:14:30,636 --> 00:14:32,876 Speaker 1: happens is, by time you get to like the thirties, 195 00:14:33,636 --> 00:14:38,636 Speaker 1: more and more police officers are not only trying to unionize, 196 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:45,036 Speaker 1: but the state everywhere local municipalities are saying, the CIO 197 00:14:45,116 --> 00:14:49,836 Speaker 1: in the AFL cannot come and unionize police because if 198 00:14:49,876 --> 00:14:54,196 Speaker 1: they do, their loyalties will be split. So right around 199 00:14:54,196 --> 00:14:57,676 Speaker 1: in nineteen forties they said, you know what. Police officers 200 00:14:57,716 --> 00:15:02,036 Speaker 1: can't be unionized because they have to be like the military, 201 00:15:02,356 --> 00:15:05,436 Speaker 1: because you know, there's no military union, and so their 202 00:15:05,556 --> 00:15:09,636 Speaker 1: loyalties cannot be split. We tell them to beat up people, 203 00:15:09,676 --> 00:15:12,116 Speaker 1: to beat up workers, we tell them to shoot to 204 00:15:12,156 --> 00:15:16,836 Speaker 1: protect private property. They cannot question the orders. So therefore 205 00:15:17,236 --> 00:15:21,516 Speaker 1: there's kind of anti union push. They remade the unions 206 00:15:21,596 --> 00:15:24,796 Speaker 1: as these so called benevolent patrolman's leagues and that sort 207 00:15:24,836 --> 00:15:30,236 Speaker 1: of thing, as kind of social organizations meant to protect 208 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:34,796 Speaker 1: police officers. But what do they protect. They protect their 209 00:15:34,916 --> 00:15:42,556 Speaker 1: right to commit violence and violate people's constitutional rights without penalty, 210 00:15:42,716 --> 00:15:46,676 Speaker 1: in other words, qualified immunities. What they're fighting for bigger weapons. 211 00:15:46,876 --> 00:15:50,716 Speaker 1: What they're fighting for the right to basically do whatever 212 00:15:50,796 --> 00:15:53,556 Speaker 1: they want to do. In the nineteen seventies had this 213 00:15:53,636 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 1: whole series of police strikes. Some of these strikes were 214 00:15:56,836 --> 00:15:59,876 Speaker 1: like against pay cuts, but a lot of these strikes 215 00:15:59,916 --> 00:16:04,636 Speaker 1: were against what the increase in black patrol officers when 216 00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:08,556 Speaker 1: they started hiring black hops places like Chicago, New York elsewhere, 217 00:16:08,716 --> 00:16:11,236 Speaker 1: they like, this is bad or the other thing it 218 00:16:11,316 --> 00:16:15,116 Speaker 1: was striking against were like civilian review boards. So when 219 00:16:15,276 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 1: people organize and said this behavior is unacceptable, we need 220 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:22,516 Speaker 1: to have some kind of civilian review. They went on strike, 221 00:16:23,116 --> 00:16:27,636 Speaker 1: and see these were strikes against oversight. Strikes will allow 222 00:16:27,676 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 1: them to do violence work without penalcy. That is not 223 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:34,876 Speaker 1: what a union does. And indeed, that's why they're better 224 00:16:34,956 --> 00:16:38,836 Speaker 1: known as fraternal orders, as many of them call themselves. 225 00:16:39,236 --> 00:16:42,476 Speaker 1: And I don't think it's ironic or coincidental that the 226 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:47,316 Speaker 1: kukux Klan was a fraternal order, and that indeed slaveholders 227 00:16:47,676 --> 00:16:54,076 Speaker 1: formed fraternal orders. And those organizations protect their members, they 228 00:16:54,116 --> 00:16:58,796 Speaker 1: shield them, they enforce the code of Silence, the thin 229 00:16:58,836 --> 00:17:02,956 Speaker 1: blue line, they enforce all that. That's what these organizations do. 230 00:17:03,316 --> 00:17:06,636 Speaker 1: It is not about protecting workers' rights. It's not about 231 00:17:06,636 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 1: protecting the rights of clerical workers who work for the 232 00:17:09,276 --> 00:17:12,996 Speaker 1: department or people who actually clean up police departments. I mean, 233 00:17:13,156 --> 00:17:16,956 Speaker 1: it's about protecting perpetrators of violence. And that's what it is, 234 00:17:17,036 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: which is why they cannot be allowed to be part 235 00:17:20,036 --> 00:17:25,076 Speaker 1: of trade unions and labor organizations SCIU, you know, Service 236 00:17:25,076 --> 00:17:30,676 Speaker 1: Employees International Union. They actually have some police unions within 237 00:17:30,796 --> 00:17:33,476 Speaker 1: their realm. And so there's a movement with an SCIU 238 00:17:33,556 --> 00:17:36,396 Speaker 1: saying you need to kick them out because they're protecting 239 00:17:37,316 --> 00:17:41,236 Speaker 1: the folks who are killing us and destroying labor organizing. 240 00:17:41,676 --> 00:17:48,556 Speaker 1: I wonder if also this current labor movement is benefiting 241 00:17:48,756 --> 00:17:53,796 Speaker 1: from a growing critique of capital and capitalism and growing 242 00:17:53,796 --> 00:17:57,356 Speaker 1: awareness of the relationship between racism and capitalism. I would 243 00:17:57,436 --> 00:18:01,756 Speaker 1: argue that it's not so much new as researching. It's 244 00:18:01,756 --> 00:18:05,356 Speaker 1: like you could see these waves in the late nineteenth century, 245 00:18:05,356 --> 00:18:08,676 Speaker 1: for example, in eighteen seventy seven, with the official end 246 00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:11,996 Speaker 1: of instruction in eighteen seventy seven is also the same 247 00:18:12,076 --> 00:18:15,716 Speaker 1: year as a Great Railroad strike and the same year 248 00:18:15,836 --> 00:18:19,276 Speaker 1: that Saint Louis had a commune, much like the Paris Commune, 249 00:18:19,316 --> 00:18:25,156 Speaker 1: that there was revolutionary activity among black, white immigrant workers, 250 00:18:25,476 --> 00:18:30,356 Speaker 1: and so the idea that capitalism should be replaced, the 251 00:18:30,516 --> 00:18:35,756 Speaker 1: discussions about socialism as an alternative, the idea that labor 252 00:18:35,836 --> 00:18:39,356 Speaker 1: creates all value, all that's circulating in the eighteen seventies 253 00:18:39,356 --> 00:18:42,236 Speaker 1: and eighteen eighties. And part of the reason for the 254 00:18:42,356 --> 00:18:47,556 Speaker 1: resurgence or growth of lynching in violence was precisely because 255 00:18:47,596 --> 00:18:51,516 Speaker 1: they're putting down movements like the Greenback Labor Party, like 256 00:18:51,636 --> 00:18:54,676 Speaker 1: the Readjusters, like the Populace, like the Nights of Labor, 257 00:18:54,796 --> 00:18:58,196 Speaker 1: who are saying we need a cooperative commonwealth. Capitalism not 258 00:18:58,276 --> 00:19:01,676 Speaker 1: working for us, and so the EBB and Flow nineteen 259 00:19:01,756 --> 00:19:04,956 Speaker 1: nineteen is a recognition in the Seattle General Strike that 260 00:19:05,276 --> 00:19:08,436 Speaker 1: capitalism and racism are not working the same thing in 261 00:19:08,436 --> 00:19:11,516 Speaker 1: the nineteen third these so the questions how does it 262 00:19:11,556 --> 00:19:14,836 Speaker 1: flow in their back And even when you think about 263 00:19:15,956 --> 00:19:20,756 Speaker 1: understanding what capitalism is, you know, we're dealing with massive inequality, 264 00:19:21,236 --> 00:19:25,516 Speaker 1: mea mega wealth and concentration of wealth through the most 265 00:19:25,516 --> 00:19:30,556 Speaker 1: exploredive means, and in a culture where that kind of stuff, 266 00:19:30,876 --> 00:19:35,196 Speaker 1: even among our people, is valorized. It's almost like the 267 00:19:35,236 --> 00:19:40,076 Speaker 1: poor white saying one day I will have my own plantations. Yeah, 268 00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:42,996 Speaker 1: so I'm not going to challenge slavery even though it's 269 00:19:43,036 --> 00:19:46,276 Speaker 1: exploiting me because I can be a slaveholder one day. Yes, yes, 270 00:19:46,356 --> 00:19:48,196 Speaker 1: And it's the same thing with capitalism. You know, think 271 00:19:48,196 --> 00:19:51,516 Speaker 1: about the whole hip hop support of Trump and Trumpism. 272 00:19:51,956 --> 00:19:54,596 Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't everybody. It wasn't like my friend 273 00:19:54,596 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 1: Boots Riley, who's been waging Warren Trump from the get go. 274 00:19:58,436 --> 00:20:03,556 Speaker 1: But people are enamored with wealth accumulation, and we hold 275 00:20:03,596 --> 00:20:06,636 Speaker 1: up those who are the wealthiest who are black and say, 276 00:20:06,876 --> 00:20:11,036 Speaker 1: these are people, this is what's success looks like rather 277 00:20:11,116 --> 00:20:14,316 Speaker 1: than question how was that wealth produced in the first place, 278 00:20:14,476 --> 00:20:17,156 Speaker 1: how was it accumulated, Why is it concentrated? Why are 279 00:20:17,196 --> 00:20:19,996 Speaker 1: so many of us poor? And so we're at a 280 00:20:20,116 --> 00:20:24,636 Speaker 1: crossroads where there's a real ideological battle between those who say, 281 00:20:24,676 --> 00:20:27,036 Speaker 1: you know, we need to replace it with something, whether 282 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:30,076 Speaker 1: we call the socialism, we call it abolition or whatever, 283 00:20:30,836 --> 00:20:33,596 Speaker 1: versus those who say, we just need to get Lebron 284 00:20:33,716 --> 00:20:37,556 Speaker 1: James to give us more money. If we get that, 285 00:20:37,676 --> 00:20:40,996 Speaker 1: that will be straight. And so we've been here in 286 00:20:41,396 --> 00:20:44,396 Speaker 1: the whole history of our struggle has been this struggle 287 00:20:44,516 --> 00:20:47,676 Speaker 1: with the question of capitalism in the nineteen sixties and seventies. 288 00:20:47,836 --> 00:20:51,596 Speaker 1: In the nineteen thirties, after World War Two, Paul Robinson 289 00:20:51,636 --> 00:20:55,756 Speaker 1: and William L. Patterson and Luis Thompson Patterson saying that 290 00:20:55,876 --> 00:20:59,156 Speaker 1: the only way to address the problem of state violence 291 00:20:59,996 --> 00:21:04,396 Speaker 1: is to a reorganization of our society and our economy. 292 00:21:05,396 --> 00:21:10,076 Speaker 1: So this is a longstanding battle which won't be dissolved 293 00:21:10,116 --> 00:21:12,756 Speaker 1: anytime soon, but one that we always have to keep 294 00:21:12,876 --> 00:21:15,556 Speaker 1: at the forefront. I think definitely. And I don't know, 295 00:21:15,676 --> 00:21:17,756 Speaker 1: tell me if you're seeing the same thing. I'm seeing 296 00:21:17,756 --> 00:21:24,596 Speaker 1: a growing number of white Americans who are indeed recognizing 297 00:21:25,396 --> 00:21:28,476 Speaker 1: some of the problems that you just addressed as relates 298 00:21:28,476 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 1: to capitalism. And then there's a growing number of people 299 00:21:33,636 --> 00:21:37,276 Speaker 1: of color who are recognizing that people of color are 300 00:21:37,316 --> 00:21:42,196 Speaker 1: not the problem, that indeed it's racism. But some of 301 00:21:42,196 --> 00:21:46,676 Speaker 1: those people of color, even though they recognize racism as 302 00:21:46,676 --> 00:21:49,356 Speaker 1: a problem, they do not see capitalism as a problem. 303 00:21:49,796 --> 00:21:52,636 Speaker 1: And even though some of those white folks who see 304 00:21:52,676 --> 00:21:57,276 Speaker 1: capitalism as a problem either argue that racism doesn't exist 305 00:21:57,916 --> 00:22:02,036 Speaker 1: or do not view it as reinforcing capitalism in some way. 306 00:22:02,396 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 1: So how would you speak to both of those groups, 307 00:22:05,276 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: because what they view as the problem obviously is going 308 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:10,156 Speaker 1: to dictate how they can see of a solution. You 309 00:22:10,236 --> 00:22:12,196 Speaker 1: hit it right on the head. There are those who 310 00:22:12,276 --> 00:22:15,876 Speaker 1: say the struggle is around labor and capital, the struggles 311 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:19,596 Speaker 1: around class in that race is a feature of it, 312 00:22:19,676 --> 00:22:22,156 Speaker 1: and if you deal with the class issue, then racism 313 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:24,556 Speaker 1: will with their way. On the flip side of those 314 00:22:24,596 --> 00:22:27,396 Speaker 1: who say, you know what the problems are capitalism, the 315 00:22:27,476 --> 00:22:32,956 Speaker 1: problem really is state violence, anti blackness, and a psychological 316 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:37,796 Speaker 1: deep hatred of black bodies without actually addressing what is 317 00:22:37,796 --> 00:22:40,716 Speaker 1: the source of that hatred in the first place, The 318 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:45,076 Speaker 1: fact that these bodies were sources of wealth for some 319 00:22:45,116 --> 00:22:49,556 Speaker 1: people and sources of accumulation and exploitation. To me, it's 320 00:22:49,556 --> 00:22:52,996 Speaker 1: a kind of dead end debate. I think that there 321 00:22:53,036 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 1: are some white folks, really good will, who actually understand 322 00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:59,756 Speaker 1: both and think about groups like Surge, you know, standing 323 00:22:59,796 --> 00:23:04,876 Speaker 1: up for racial justice. They actually keep emphasizing the racialized 324 00:23:05,556 --> 00:23:09,716 Speaker 1: character of capitalism and that anti racism is a necessity 325 00:23:09,876 --> 00:23:13,876 Speaker 1: for all people. But an anti racism without a critique 326 00:23:13,916 --> 00:23:17,836 Speaker 1: of capitalism doesn't advance us. Some of the best evidence 327 00:23:18,356 --> 00:23:23,636 Speaker 1: for that is Spring twenty twenty, where all these corporations 328 00:23:23,636 --> 00:23:28,476 Speaker 1: came out the woodwork, including Jeff Bezos who dropped ten 329 00:23:28,516 --> 00:23:32,236 Speaker 1: million dollars on all these organizations, including Black Lives Matter, 330 00:23:32,796 --> 00:23:37,276 Speaker 1: including the Urban leacp ACLU. And of course ten million 331 00:23:37,316 --> 00:23:40,036 Speaker 1: dollars for him is like a penny for me, well, 332 00:23:40,836 --> 00:23:43,076 Speaker 1: not even a penny, it's like one end or something 333 00:23:43,116 --> 00:23:47,076 Speaker 1: like that. But the fact that he could drop that 334 00:23:47,156 --> 00:23:51,036 Speaker 1: money and say Black Lives Matter and entreat his employees 335 00:23:51,676 --> 00:23:55,436 Speaker 1: the way he treats them as second class citizens, as disposable, 336 00:23:55,956 --> 00:24:00,876 Speaker 1: and so only a critique that brings together all those 337 00:24:00,916 --> 00:24:06,756 Speaker 1: elements and gender oppression and sexual oppression that sees these 338 00:24:06,796 --> 00:24:11,916 Speaker 1: things as connected can actually advance a struggle moving forward. 339 00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:33,476 Speaker 1: It seems to me that those who make the case 340 00:24:33,596 --> 00:24:39,796 Speaker 1: that capitalism is essentially not racist, or that capitalism is 341 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:45,516 Speaker 1: actually an economic system that is about freedom, is about 342 00:24:45,556 --> 00:24:51,516 Speaker 1: supplying and demanding, typically their definition lends itself to them 343 00:24:51,516 --> 00:24:55,796 Speaker 1: describing it as a not racist phenomenon, and those who 344 00:24:55,876 --> 00:24:59,236 Speaker 1: have a different definition of capitalism but a different reading 345 00:24:59,276 --> 00:25:02,756 Speaker 1: of history talk about its intersection of racisms. Do you 346 00:25:02,796 --> 00:25:05,956 Speaker 1: find that I'm mentioning this because it is such a 347 00:25:06,036 --> 00:25:09,956 Speaker 1: struggle to talk about anything which we don't have in definitions, 348 00:25:10,076 --> 00:25:12,276 Speaker 1: which we don't have a common reading of history, in 349 00:25:12,316 --> 00:25:15,556 Speaker 1: which we're not willing to acknowledge facts and its material 350 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:20,196 Speaker 1: reality exactly. And in fact, one of my concerns with 351 00:25:20,356 --> 00:25:25,636 Speaker 1: the way that the phrase racial capitalism is used is 352 00:25:25,636 --> 00:25:29,436 Speaker 1: that sometimes it's misunderstood to mean that it's a particular 353 00:25:29,476 --> 00:25:32,116 Speaker 1: type of capitalism, like there's a good capitalism and it 354 00:25:32,156 --> 00:25:34,076 Speaker 1: is racial. We can just get the racial part out. 355 00:25:34,956 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 1: It's funny because it kind of mirrors the story of 356 00:25:38,556 --> 00:25:42,156 Speaker 1: South Africa, where there's a big struggle in South Africa 357 00:25:42,196 --> 00:25:45,756 Speaker 1: about whether or not we win the political struggle. First, 358 00:25:45,756 --> 00:25:48,756 Speaker 1: we dismantle a parth aid while keeping capitalism in place. 359 00:25:49,276 --> 00:25:53,156 Speaker 1: The Freedom Charter suggested a different plant, slightly different planets 360 00:25:53,156 --> 00:25:56,956 Speaker 1: should say we have to dismantle both together. And so 361 00:25:56,996 --> 00:25:59,076 Speaker 1: the lesson, of course in South Africa is that they 362 00:25:59,116 --> 00:26:02,596 Speaker 1: did not dismantle the capitalism part, and so that means 363 00:26:02,596 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 1: the racial continued. What was racial was endemic. The term 364 00:26:06,356 --> 00:26:11,436 Speaker 1: racial capitalism actually signals that race and capitalism or co constitutive, 365 00:26:11,756 --> 00:26:15,476 Speaker 1: they're made together. The ground upon which capitalism emerged initially 366 00:26:16,236 --> 00:26:20,036 Speaker 1: was one that was already based on racialized difference. And 367 00:26:20,236 --> 00:26:22,196 Speaker 1: you know this from stamped at the beginning, which is 368 00:26:22,196 --> 00:26:24,436 Speaker 1: sitting on my shelf right behind me. Race is not 369 00:26:24,516 --> 00:26:27,196 Speaker 1: just identity, but it is a structural power, and it's 370 00:26:27,196 --> 00:26:31,356 Speaker 1: a means of structuring power through difference. Racial capitalism is 371 00:26:31,396 --> 00:26:34,596 Speaker 1: not a type of capitalism, It is capitalism. It's like 372 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:40,556 Speaker 1: Ruth Wilson Gilmore says, capitalism is already always racial because 373 00:26:40,716 --> 00:26:44,396 Speaker 1: of the logic of the societies in which capitalism emerges, 374 00:26:44,436 --> 00:26:48,596 Speaker 1: which is, you have differential value. I think the central 375 00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 1: story of racial capitalism isn't always centered on say the 376 00:26:53,836 --> 00:26:58,276 Speaker 1: violence of slavery, which is true, or dispossession, which is true. 377 00:26:58,796 --> 00:27:02,276 Speaker 1: Or imperialism. But one of the secrets to racial capitalism 378 00:27:02,596 --> 00:27:07,916 Speaker 1: or to capitalism is the capacity of capital in the 379 00:27:07,996 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 1: state to capture the white working class and tie its 380 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: identity to race, to whiteness, and to masculinity, and it works. 381 00:27:17,276 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: The second thing is that there's racialized boundaries delineating between 382 00:27:22,116 --> 00:27:25,756 Speaker 1: what's working what's non work. Even something as basic as 383 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:29,036 Speaker 1: like what's paid labor and unpaid labor. Race has a 384 00:27:29,036 --> 00:27:31,396 Speaker 1: lot to do that and gender. So you've got all 385 00:27:31,436 --> 00:27:36,076 Speaker 1: these black and brown women who do domestic work and 386 00:27:36,196 --> 00:27:38,996 Speaker 1: oftentimes do that work for very little money, and do 387 00:27:39,236 --> 00:27:43,556 Speaker 1: unpaid labor without any opportunity to be able to make 388 00:27:43,596 --> 00:27:46,796 Speaker 1: a living and survive. And then the third thing is 389 00:27:46,796 --> 00:27:51,276 Speaker 1: that something as basic as access to land, access to resources, 390 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:55,316 Speaker 1: access to loans, access to sustainable life, access to a 391 00:27:55,316 --> 00:28:00,196 Speaker 1: decent wage, the hierarchy is racial. The amazing thing about 392 00:28:00,236 --> 00:28:05,236 Speaker 1: it is that the racism of capitalism affects the poorest 393 00:28:05,316 --> 00:28:12,716 Speaker 1: white people terribly because they believe that their white skin 394 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:15,996 Speaker 1: is the one thing that makes them better, despite the 395 00:28:16,036 --> 00:28:23,076 Speaker 1: fact that any system based on differential treatment, on differential 396 00:28:23,116 --> 00:28:27,076 Speaker 1: wages means that those at the bottom get pushed even 397 00:28:27,116 --> 00:28:29,476 Speaker 1: further down. So if you're a poor white person, or 398 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:33,316 Speaker 1: un a poor white person, the very racial structure that 399 00:28:33,436 --> 00:28:36,716 Speaker 1: you think is benefiting you keeps you down. And then 400 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:40,676 Speaker 1: you get even more pissed. Yes, because because you're not 401 00:28:40,756 --> 00:28:43,836 Speaker 1: treated like a legitimate white person. And then who do 402 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:48,236 Speaker 1: you take your anchor out? Not on capital, not on 403 00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:51,276 Speaker 1: the system, not on the system that denies you healthcare, 404 00:28:51,836 --> 00:28:54,756 Speaker 1: the system that denies you a living wage. You take 405 00:28:54,796 --> 00:28:57,276 Speaker 1: it out on the black and brown people who you 406 00:28:57,316 --> 00:28:59,676 Speaker 1: think are taking their jobs and denying you your right 407 00:28:59,716 --> 00:29:03,996 Speaker 1: to be white. Yeah, you know, we're thinking about the 408 00:29:04,116 --> 00:29:07,876 Speaker 1: struggle to unionize, the struggle to free the working class, 409 00:29:07,956 --> 00:29:11,996 Speaker 1: to empower the work people. Where should we start, Where 410 00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:14,796 Speaker 1: should we go? Where should we organize? When I vote? 411 00:29:14,796 --> 00:29:18,236 Speaker 1: Freedom Dreams Way Back is one of my favorite books. 412 00:29:18,236 --> 00:29:20,996 Speaker 1: By the way, thank you. I appreciate that it's like 413 00:29:21,076 --> 00:29:24,436 Speaker 1: twenty years ago. One of the points I kept hammering 414 00:29:24,516 --> 00:29:28,556 Speaker 1: home was that all the visionary ideas about what kind 415 00:29:28,556 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 1: of society we want to build were never created in 416 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:36,636 Speaker 1: a think tank or from the smartest people, but through struggle, 417 00:29:36,916 --> 00:29:41,316 Speaker 1: through this constant, constant struggle to change the world. In 418 00:29:41,356 --> 00:29:44,116 Speaker 1: your work, you spend a lot of time talking about 419 00:29:44,236 --> 00:29:47,756 Speaker 1: policy that policy actually does make a difference in how 420 00:29:47,796 --> 00:29:52,236 Speaker 1: to be anti racist. We can't just change hearts, you 421 00:29:52,316 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: know what. We got to actually implement policy that could 422 00:29:54,676 --> 00:29:58,636 Speaker 1: have a function, And I think something is basic as 423 00:29:58,796 --> 00:30:03,756 Speaker 1: the Proact, which is legislation that restores the right to 424 00:30:03,916 --> 00:30:07,876 Speaker 1: organize without a whole lot of disruption on the part 425 00:30:07,916 --> 00:30:11,916 Speaker 1: of employers, without doing things that once we're considered illegal. 426 00:30:12,276 --> 00:30:17,036 Speaker 1: The Proact would allow for what we call close shops. 427 00:30:17,116 --> 00:30:20,436 Speaker 1: Close shops basically means that everyone who gets the job 428 00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:23,116 Speaker 1: has to be in the union, and then your dues 429 00:30:23,116 --> 00:30:25,836 Speaker 1: are taken from your paycheck. And that's not a bad 430 00:30:25,876 --> 00:30:28,076 Speaker 1: thing because it means that you have a strong union 431 00:30:28,076 --> 00:30:30,396 Speaker 1: that will fight for you. And so the kind of 432 00:30:30,436 --> 00:30:33,596 Speaker 1: strategies and tactics that Amazon was able to use to 433 00:30:33,716 --> 00:30:37,556 Speaker 1: basically win this election, those things would be rendered illegal 434 00:30:37,916 --> 00:30:41,476 Speaker 1: under the proactes such as a basic basic thing. I mean, 435 00:30:41,836 --> 00:30:44,796 Speaker 1: of course, we always need people to be organized and 436 00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:48,876 Speaker 1: organized and organized, but I think we're seeing organizations, We're 437 00:30:48,876 --> 00:30:54,076 Speaker 1: seeing organizations under incredible dress still proceeding. But it's very 438 00:30:54,116 --> 00:30:58,916 Speaker 1: hard to organize in a world of social media and 439 00:30:58,956 --> 00:31:02,996 Speaker 1: atomization where people feel deep sense of alienation. You know, 440 00:31:03,396 --> 00:31:07,716 Speaker 1: when Marx was writing as young Marks, his concern was 441 00:31:07,836 --> 00:31:12,076 Speaker 1: less about capital operations and more about alienation. And that's 442 00:31:12,076 --> 00:31:14,756 Speaker 1: what we're facing now. We have whole generations of people 443 00:31:14,756 --> 00:31:21,356 Speaker 1: who just feel alone, and when in the context of 444 00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:26,716 Speaker 1: making their statements they're critiqued or this pushback, I mean, 445 00:31:26,716 --> 00:31:29,636 Speaker 1: they just dump, you know, saying like I'm just gonna 446 00:31:29,676 --> 00:31:32,436 Speaker 1: unfriend you, I'm gonna get rid of you. So one 447 00:31:32,476 --> 00:31:34,996 Speaker 1: of the things that we are not good at right now, 448 00:31:34,996 --> 00:31:37,716 Speaker 1: which I think is a very important tool of not 449 00:31:37,756 --> 00:31:41,676 Speaker 1: just a tool, but an ethic of organizing, is how 450 00:31:41,676 --> 00:31:48,516 Speaker 1: do we be together, argue with one another, disagree, make mistakes, 451 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:52,716 Speaker 1: and still keep building together. I'm gonna get myself in 452 00:31:52,756 --> 00:31:55,196 Speaker 1: trouble for this, but I'm just gonna say anyway, you know, 453 00:31:55,236 --> 00:31:58,476 Speaker 1: I'm about to retire. So I'm so frustrated with this 454 00:31:58,596 --> 00:32:06,716 Speaker 1: idea that you dismiss every single person who doesn't have 455 00:32:06,796 --> 00:32:12,236 Speaker 1: the right language or understanding as hopelessly racists. For example. 456 00:32:12,396 --> 00:32:15,356 Speaker 1: Those are the people we got to hold onto. All 457 00:32:15,356 --> 00:32:17,836 Speaker 1: the people who make errors, all the people make mistakes, 458 00:32:18,116 --> 00:32:21,156 Speaker 1: people whose gender politics are problematic, how do you transform 459 00:32:21,236 --> 00:32:24,476 Speaker 1: them by bringing them in the circle and struggling with them. 460 00:32:24,756 --> 00:32:28,356 Speaker 1: That's not to accept the behaviors to struggle with them. 461 00:32:28,676 --> 00:32:36,236 Speaker 1: We cannot adopt a pessimistic stands that says everybody's anti 462 00:32:36,276 --> 00:32:40,316 Speaker 1: black and so therefore there's no possibility of alliance. So 463 00:32:40,396 --> 00:32:44,716 Speaker 1: just forget it. That is not our history. Our history 464 00:32:45,236 --> 00:32:48,036 Speaker 1: is a history of actually standing with people who don't 465 00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 1: even like us, to build solidarity, not to give up ground, 466 00:32:52,436 --> 00:32:54,876 Speaker 1: not to allow people to run over us. And in 467 00:32:54,996 --> 00:32:57,916 Speaker 1: doing that you learn how to win. And we can't 468 00:32:57,916 --> 00:33:01,316 Speaker 1: afford not to win because we're on the verge of 469 00:33:01,716 --> 00:33:06,356 Speaker 1: human collapse catastrophe and we need each other more than ever. 470 00:33:06,916 --> 00:33:10,236 Speaker 1: That's more of a philosophical but it's also tectical advice 471 00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: about how we move forward, because if we can't do that, 472 00:33:12,916 --> 00:33:16,756 Speaker 1: we can't build a union, right, we can't. No true 473 00:33:16,796 --> 00:33:20,716 Speaker 1: words have been said. We have to treat people like people, 474 00:33:21,116 --> 00:33:25,436 Speaker 1: people who can change, people who can grow. And indeed, 475 00:33:25,436 --> 00:33:28,356 Speaker 1: that's one of the reasons why I tried to emphasize 476 00:33:28,876 --> 00:33:32,796 Speaker 1: being anti racist as a journey, just like struggle, right 477 00:33:33,316 --> 00:33:37,676 Speaker 1: is a journey, just like organizing, and organizing takes a 478 00:33:37,756 --> 00:33:42,156 Speaker 1: tremendous amount of compassion to welcome that person in who 479 00:33:42,236 --> 00:33:45,676 Speaker 1: broke the strike last time, For those who haven't read 480 00:33:46,316 --> 00:33:48,876 Speaker 1: doctor Kelly's work. Do like me and read all his books. 481 00:33:49,116 --> 00:33:51,356 Speaker 1: But what you oftentimes talk about is not just the 482 00:33:51,396 --> 00:33:56,276 Speaker 1: black radical tradition, but the black radical imagination. So what 483 00:33:56,396 --> 00:33:59,876 Speaker 1: should we be imagining right now? We're actually in a 484 00:33:59,876 --> 00:34:05,396 Speaker 1: really unique position. All this talk about abolition has actually, 485 00:34:06,156 --> 00:34:12,156 Speaker 1: I think, really inspired a new way of imagining a 486 00:34:12,196 --> 00:34:15,316 Speaker 1: different future. And I want to emphasize that because you know, 487 00:34:15,436 --> 00:34:18,956 Speaker 1: all these terms that circulate, they always eventually get coopted. 488 00:34:19,356 --> 00:34:21,636 Speaker 1: Next thing, you know, we're going to have like Amazon 489 00:34:21,676 --> 00:34:26,076 Speaker 1: and Target talking about abolition. I just know what's going 490 00:34:26,156 --> 00:34:31,596 Speaker 1: to happen. But I'm really thinking about the work of Marimcaba, 491 00:34:31,596 --> 00:34:36,516 Speaker 1: of Angela Davis, of Gina Dent. In fact, Angela, Gina Dent, 492 00:34:36,796 --> 00:34:39,276 Speaker 1: Erica Miners, and Beth Richie has this new book coming 493 00:34:39,276 --> 00:34:44,276 Speaker 1: out called Abolition Feminism Now, which is probably one of 494 00:34:44,356 --> 00:34:48,516 Speaker 1: the richest expressions of what I would think of as 495 00:34:48,516 --> 00:34:54,676 Speaker 1: a black radical imagination, which imagines a world that's really 496 00:34:54,716 --> 00:34:58,996 Speaker 1: dedicated to eradicating all forms of oppression, that there's no hierarchy, 497 00:34:59,076 --> 00:35:02,916 Speaker 1: there's no list, there's nothing off the table, ending state 498 00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:10,036 Speaker 1: sanctioned violence, replacing the police with genuine, noncarsual paths to safety, 499 00:35:10,116 --> 00:35:14,836 Speaker 1: freeing the body from constraints, protecting the earth, environmental justice 500 00:35:14,956 --> 00:35:18,276 Speaker 1: is not something that's distinct to a particular side movement, 501 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:22,236 Speaker 1: but that's something we're all in, ending precarity, rejecting the 502 00:35:22,356 --> 00:35:27,796 Speaker 1: very system of carcerality, and also ending capitalism and replacing 503 00:35:27,836 --> 00:35:33,356 Speaker 1: them with something else, Because any imagination without imagining a 504 00:35:33,396 --> 00:35:37,396 Speaker 1: world beyond capitalism, is not ending all forms of exportation 505 00:35:37,516 --> 00:35:43,236 Speaker 1: and oppression. It's not genuinely abolitionists. So I'm actually probably 506 00:35:43,236 --> 00:35:48,276 Speaker 1: more enthusiastic than ever. We're in a unique place, I think, 507 00:35:48,876 --> 00:35:51,916 Speaker 1: And why are we there? Twenty six million people in 508 00:35:51,956 --> 00:35:55,676 Speaker 1: the streets, thousands coming out in the streets in Ferguson 509 00:35:55,956 --> 00:35:59,836 Speaker 1: week after week after week, thousands coming out after the 510 00:35:59,916 --> 00:36:03,036 Speaker 1: killing a trade of our Martin streets are filled with 511 00:36:03,156 --> 00:36:06,756 Speaker 1: people who are our thinkers. The killing of BEYONDA Taylor 512 00:36:06,836 --> 00:36:10,556 Speaker 1: produced a well spring of ideas, not just from black 513 00:36:10,556 --> 00:36:13,476 Speaker 1: people either. So I think that we're in a great moment, 514 00:36:13,716 --> 00:36:17,516 Speaker 1: a great moment. We'll see what happens. Thank you so much, 515 00:36:17,876 --> 00:36:22,996 Speaker 1: doctor Kelly. I hope people listening learned as much as 516 00:36:23,036 --> 00:36:25,556 Speaker 1: I did, because indeed, whenever I read you and listen 517 00:36:25,636 --> 00:36:28,436 Speaker 1: to you, there's so much to learn and gleam and 518 00:36:28,636 --> 00:36:31,796 Speaker 1: just the clarity of thought. I think it's critical in 519 00:36:31,796 --> 00:36:35,076 Speaker 1: this moment. It is mutual, and I appreciate everything you do. 520 00:36:35,196 --> 00:36:38,516 Speaker 1: And I'm so glad you got this platform, because boy, 521 00:36:38,716 --> 00:36:44,716 Speaker 1: it replaces a lot of nonsense. Yes, thank you so much. Yeah, 522 00:36:44,756 --> 00:36:59,516 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. I was a graduate student when I 523 00:36:59,596 --> 00:37:03,876 Speaker 1: began to understand racial capitalism. I took a history course 524 00:37:04,116 --> 00:37:07,796 Speaker 1: on the political economy of the Third World. It was 525 00:37:07,836 --> 00:37:12,236 Speaker 1: my first intensive study of capitalism and its history, meaning 526 00:37:12,276 --> 00:37:16,236 Speaker 1: I first learned about capitalism through studying its impact and 527 00:37:16,316 --> 00:37:19,636 Speaker 1: spread in the Third World or what's now called the 528 00:37:19,676 --> 00:37:25,636 Speaker 1: Global South. I learned about the central role of enslaving, 529 00:37:25,796 --> 00:37:30,596 Speaker 1: slave trading, and colonizing in the development of global capitalism, 530 00:37:30,716 --> 00:37:35,516 Speaker 1: of racial capitalism. I've been learning from scholars like doctor 531 00:37:35,636 --> 00:37:40,236 Speaker 1: Kelly ever since. But I've also learned that talking about 532 00:37:40,276 --> 00:37:43,836 Speaker 1: the racial history of capitalism can be as fraught as 533 00:37:43,876 --> 00:37:48,756 Speaker 1: talking about the racial history of America. The refusal to 534 00:37:48,796 --> 00:37:53,436 Speaker 1: speak honestly about racism extends to a refusal to speak 535 00:37:53,516 --> 00:37:57,876 Speaker 1: honestly about capitalism, and both extend to the refusal to 536 00:37:57,916 --> 00:38:02,196 Speaker 1: speak honestly about the role of the union in building 537 00:38:02,196 --> 00:38:08,236 Speaker 1: a racially and economically just nation. The union organizing at 538 00:38:08,236 --> 00:38:12,236 Speaker 1: the Amazon Where House in Bessemer, Alabama offers a stark 539 00:38:12,276 --> 00:38:16,516 Speaker 1: contrast to the labor organizing of the past. The new 540 00:38:16,596 --> 00:38:21,316 Speaker 1: labor movement in Bessemer and beyond is poised for success 541 00:38:21,356 --> 00:38:25,836 Speaker 1: because of the inclusion and leadership of an increasingly black, brown, 542 00:38:25,916 --> 00:38:30,556 Speaker 1: and female labor force. We are in a unique moment 543 00:38:30,756 --> 00:38:35,156 Speaker 1: for union organizing. Workers are learning the rules of collective 544 00:38:35,156 --> 00:38:40,676 Speaker 1: power and pushing forth to win. Though union membership in 545 00:38:40,716 --> 00:38:43,876 Speaker 1: the United States has declined since the mid twentieth century, 546 00:38:44,396 --> 00:38:48,636 Speaker 1: when asked, sixty five percent of Americans say they approve 547 00:38:49,196 --> 00:38:54,156 Speaker 1: of unions. Since the Bessemer vote, over one thousand Amazon 548 00:38:54,276 --> 00:38:58,156 Speaker 1: employees across the country have shown an interest in union 549 00:38:58,236 --> 00:39:02,596 Speaker 1: drives at their facilities. But you and I can support 550 00:39:02,836 --> 00:39:07,036 Speaker 1: union efforts in our communities. You and I can support 551 00:39:07,156 --> 00:39:10,756 Speaker 1: local and federal bills that make it easier to unionize. 552 00:39:11,796 --> 00:39:15,476 Speaker 1: But as we unionize, we must recognize the shared and 553 00:39:15,636 --> 00:39:20,396 Speaker 1: unique needs of workers across all racial groups. We must 554 00:39:20,436 --> 00:39:23,996 Speaker 1: build an anti racist labor movement that can secure victories 555 00:39:24,036 --> 00:39:28,316 Speaker 1: that benefit all working people. We must build the union. 556 00:39:28,996 --> 00:39:39,836 Speaker 1: We must be anti racist. Be anti racist is a 557 00:39:39,876 --> 00:39:42,676 Speaker 1: production of Pushkin Industries and Our Heart Media. It is 558 00:39:42,716 --> 00:39:45,516 Speaker 1: written and hosted by doctor Ibram's Kindy and produced by 559 00:39:45,516 --> 00:39:49,956 Speaker 1: Alexandra Garton with associate producer Brittany Brown. Our engineer has 560 00:39:49,996 --> 00:39:52,956 Speaker 1: been Talliday, Our editors Julia Barton, and our shore runner 561 00:39:52,956 --> 00:39:56,476 Speaker 1: is Sasha Matthist. Our executive producers are Alta Mullat and 562 00:39:56,556 --> 00:39:59,596 Speaker 1: Mia Lobel. Many thanks to Timmy Win and doctor Heather 563 00:39:59,676 --> 00:40:02,156 Speaker 1: Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist Research at Boston 564 00:40:02,276 --> 00:40:04,756 Speaker 1: University for all of their help at Pushkin. Thanks to 565 00:40:04,836 --> 00:40:09,196 Speaker 1: Heather Fame, Carli mcgleiori, John Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg. Can 566 00:40:09,236 --> 00:40:11,876 Speaker 1: find doctor Kendy on Twitter at d r Ebram and 567 00:40:11,956 --> 00:40:15,356 Speaker 1: on Instagram at ebram x K. You can find Pushkin 568 00:40:15,436 --> 00:40:17,996 Speaker 1: on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can 569 00:40:18,036 --> 00:40:20,836 Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To 570 00:40:20,876 --> 00:40:23,636 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcast listen on the Aha Radio app, 571 00:40:23,756 --> 00:40:26,316 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or whatever you like to listen