1 00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: In the fall of nineteen ninety five, Audrey Edmunds was 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:09,680 Speaker 1: running a small in home daycare center in Wannakee, Wisconsin. 3 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: One of the children she cared for was a seven 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:16,440 Speaker 1: month old girl named Natalie Beard, who had a troubling 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,800 Speaker 1: health history, both known and unknown, in addition to fussiness 6 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:24,800 Speaker 1: when it came to feeding. On the morning of October sixteenth, 7 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, as per usual, Natalie was set up 8 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: in a car seat in a quiet room with a 9 00:00:29,760 --> 00:00:33,800 Speaker 1: bottle to help her focus while feeding. According to Audrey, 10 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: she had soon found Natalie unresponsive as formula ran from 11 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: her nose and mouth, and Audrey some in paramedics who 12 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: noticed Natalie's pupils were fixed and dilated and she was 13 00:00:45,320 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: only taking short breaths. Tragically, Natalie died later on that 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: night at the hospital, and her autopsy revealed retinal and 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: brain hemorrhaging, as well as bruising on her scalp. Doctors 16 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: ruled these findings to be evidence of shit and baby syndrome. 17 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: That trial. Medical experts testified with certainty that Natalie's death 18 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:08,960 Speaker 1: was not the result of an accident, but rather recent 19 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,040 Speaker 1: intentional forceful conduct and the most recent caregiver was Audrey Edmunds. 20 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 1: With the stresses of childcare, it's easy to believe that 21 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: something inside Audrey could have snapped. But this is wrongful conviction. 22 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. Today, we're going to unpack 23 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: the case of Audrey Edmunds, who was convicted of a 24 00:01:40,680 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: crime that simply never happened, and she was sentenced to 25 00:01:44,200 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: eighteen years in prison. Audrey, I'm so sorry for what 26 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: happened to you, but I'm super grateful that you're here 27 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: now to share your story with us. 28 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 2: Good morning. 29 00:01:55,880 --> 00:01:59,520 Speaker 1: Likewise, you know, we've covered shaking baby syndrome or SPS, 30 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: not only a this show, but also in depth on 31 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: wrongful conviction junk science. When our host Josh Dubin spoke 32 00:02:06,120 --> 00:02:08,560 Speaker 1: with Kate Judson, the executive director of the Center for 33 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 1: Integrity and Forensic Sciences, and we've been asking her to 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: join us when we cover a case like yours. But 35 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: since the co founder of that organization, Keith Finley, was 36 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: your post conviction attorney, We're going to give Kate the 37 00:02:19,960 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: day off today. Keith, you also co founded the Wisconsin 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:30,839 Speaker 1: Innocence Project as well as the Innocence Network. I mean, wow, anyway, incredible. 39 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:33,120 Speaker 1: We're so honored to have you with us today. 40 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 3: Thanks so much, Jason, glad to be with you now. 41 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:39,120 Speaker 1: I know you know a lot about this hypothesis, which 42 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: masquerades day in and day out as a decided science. 43 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 3: Shake and baby syndrome is. As its founder, doctor Norman 44 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 3: guth Kelch referred to it repeatedly, It's a hypothesis, that's 45 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: all it is. 46 00:02:54,440 --> 00:02:58,600 Speaker 1: It's a hypothesis, right, And the hypothesis was that violently 47 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,800 Speaker 1: shaking an infant could cause the brain to sort of 48 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,320 Speaker 1: slosh around back and forth inside of the skull, which 49 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: would in turn cause the bridging veins of the brain 50 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: and eyes to tear and bleed inside the coverings of 51 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:16,480 Speaker 1: the brain and retinas, in addition to brain swelling, ultimately 52 00:03:16,639 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: resulting in the triad of findings for which doctor gotth 53 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: Kelch was trying to figure out, try to solve, and 54 00:03:22,840 --> 00:03:26,680 Speaker 1: this would then cause the child to lose consciousness or 55 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: potentially even their life. 56 00:03:29,040 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 3: This hypothesis has never, as guth Kelch himself said late 57 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 3: in his life, has never been scientifically validated, and it's 58 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,360 Speaker 3: for a very very good reason. It's nearly impossible to 59 00:03:40,440 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 3: do the kind of validation studies that would be required 60 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,360 Speaker 3: to really test this scientifically, you need to do randomized 61 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 3: controlled studies, But for obvious ethical reasons, you can't shake 62 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 3: a certain group of infants and compare them to a 63 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 3: group of infants who are not shaken. 64 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,560 Speaker 1: Right, if this hypothesis was to be believed, then you 65 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: not not only be submitting these infants to abuse, but 66 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: also what a proponent of SBS would believe is almost 67 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: a certain death. However, there have been studies over time 68 00:04:10,640 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 1: that have been able to disprove the hypothesis without shaking infants, 69 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: and those revelations come down to what other injuries would 70 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:20,839 Speaker 1: also have to be present. In addition to the triad 71 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: of findings. 72 00:04:21,760 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 3: The thing that really informs this is biomechanical research. Biomechanics 73 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: is the study of the effects of force applied to 74 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 3: the body, and what the biomechanical research shows consistently is 75 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 3: that the most vigorous shaking that a human being can 76 00:04:37,640 --> 00:04:42,680 Speaker 3: generate comes nowhere close to meeting the injury thresholds estimated 77 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 3: in these kinds of cases, and if sufficient forces could 78 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 3: be generated, that force would have to travel from the 79 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: chest through the neck to the brain. The weak link 80 00:04:52,760 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: there is the neck. The neck would almost certainly be 81 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:59,599 Speaker 3: severely damaged by that much shaking, and yet these cases 82 00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 3: almost never have any injuries of that sort. 83 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:07,000 Speaker 1: And it has since been proven that there are a 84 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: multitude of other potential causes of the so called. 85 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:18,599 Speaker 3: Triad, everything ranging from choking to inherited conditions, coagulopathies, childhood stroke, 86 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 3: accidental falls, you name it. There's just so many of 87 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 3: them that there's simply no way that a physician can, 88 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 3: so to speak, diagnosis on the basis of the triad 89 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,480 Speaker 3: or associated findings. And yet that's exactly what they did 90 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 3: in Audrey's case. 91 00:05:32,440 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 1: Pers and so many others, because antithetical to the scientific method, 92 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 1: doctors at that time were trained in medical school to 93 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: just jump to this false conclusion each and every time 94 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: they saw that triad of findings. But before this happened 95 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,480 Speaker 1: to you, Audrey, let's go back. Tell us about what 96 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: your life was like. 97 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 4: I grew up in Hudson, Wisconsin. I have three brothers. 98 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 4: My dad was a teacher. My mom was a stay 99 00:05:58,680 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 4: at home mom. We had a very middle class life. 100 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 4: We had a small home, we had one bathroom. We 101 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 4: worked when we were old enough too. I had done 102 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 4: a lot of babysitting, dog sitting. 103 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: So you were predisposed of being a caregiver even as 104 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,920 Speaker 1: a teenager. And what did you do after high school? 105 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 4: I started a job in the Saint Paul area right 106 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 4: out of high school. And then I was married when 107 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,479 Speaker 4: I was almost twenty eight years old, and within a 108 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 4: year we had moved to Ohio, and in Ohio is 109 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 4: where I had my first child, Carrie. 110 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:38,080 Speaker 1: And then when Carrie was still a toddler, your family 111 00:06:38,120 --> 00:06:40,920 Speaker 1: moved to Wannakee, Wisconsin, where you went back to childcare. 112 00:06:41,000 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: How did that come about? 113 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 4: As much as I enjoyed working, I really enjoyed and 114 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 4: wanted to be a stay at home mom. And we 115 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:51,160 Speaker 4: were in a young neighborhood with lots of small children. 116 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: People started asking me from time to time if I 117 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 4: would watch their children, And that is how this all 118 00:06:58,400 --> 00:07:01,560 Speaker 4: started for me, having children come to my house to 119 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 4: take care of them. 120 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: And I loved it. 121 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:05,760 Speaker 1: I mean, it all sounds wonderful. And you had two 122 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,159 Speaker 1: little ones of your own by that time, and you 123 00:07:08,200 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 1: were expecting your third, So how great is that to 124 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: be able to be with them full time while also 125 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: providing this much needed service to your community and to 126 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: other parents in the area. So tell me a little 127 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 1: bit about your day care facility. 128 00:07:22,240 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 4: We had a large ranch house, a kitchen in the 129 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 4: center of the house. I had the master bedroom to 130 00:07:29,880 --> 00:07:33,320 Speaker 4: the far left and two other bedrooms in a bathroom 131 00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:36,320 Speaker 4: on the right hand side. And I was not a 132 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 4: licensed daycare since I didn't have several children every day, 133 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 4: I took people as needed. 134 00:07:42,960 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 1: And one of the families you helped was the Beards 135 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: and their seven month old daughter, Natalie, who tragically passed 136 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: away on October sixteenth, nineteen ninety five. Were there any 137 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: potential warning signs regarding her. 138 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:59,200 Speaker 4: Health Natalie's parents, this was their first child. They'd had 139 00:07:59,240 --> 00:08:03,120 Speaker 4: a lot of problems with her fussiness and either taken 140 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,560 Speaker 4: her to the doctor or called the doctor twenty five 141 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,200 Speaker 4: times in her twenty seven weeks of life. 142 00:08:09,280 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: Wow, twenty five doctor visits. That's a doctor visit a 143 00:08:12,520 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: week pretty much. 144 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:15,040 Speaker 2: That's correct. 145 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:19,600 Speaker 4: And then also, Natalie, unfortunately was not able to roll 146 00:08:19,640 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 4: over on her tummy. She couldn't prop herself up with 147 00:08:22,760 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 4: her arms as most children do at that age. She 148 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 4: couldn't hold her own bottle, and ever since I started 149 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 4: taking care of her, she had a real hard time sucking, 150 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:37,200 Speaker 4: and I had asked her mom about that because most 151 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 4: babies at that age they will take down six to 152 00:08:40,280 --> 00:08:44,120 Speaker 4: seven ounces in five to seven minutes, and it took 153 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 4: Natalie at least twenty minutes. So I had accommodated her 154 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 4: over the six plus weeks that I had taken care 155 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 4: of her, to give her the time needed to hold her, 156 00:08:56,440 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 4: to help her eat, and keep her away from noisy people. 157 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: I mean, most of our artis probably at some point 158 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: have been a baby, and as you may have experienced, 159 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:08,440 Speaker 1: if the baby isn't feeling well or has some other 160 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:11,080 Speaker 1: stuff going on, it can be hard for them to 161 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: maintain focus while feeding. So anything else notable about the 162 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: lead up to that awful, faithful day. 163 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,800 Speaker 4: Yes, she had not been at my house since the 164 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 4: previous Wednesday, so I hadn't seen her for four days. 165 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 4: The previous Wednesday, after she'd been at my house, they 166 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 4: took her into the doctor the next morning because they 167 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,480 Speaker 4: said she was fussy, and the doctor treated her with 168 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,240 Speaker 4: an ear infection. To the best of my knowledge, the 169 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,760 Speaker 4: coroner had noted that there was no ear infection in 170 00:09:44,800 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 4: the autopsy, but also on that note, the mother did 171 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 4: not tell me, But Natalie had projectile vomited that morning 172 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 4: in her car seat on the way to my house, 173 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 4: which is just around a half a block from their 174 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 4: house to my house, So what was really wrong with her? 175 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 4: Many doctors who have studied these cases have said, when 176 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 4: the parents continue to bring her in for medical attention 177 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,280 Speaker 4: because they're crying, they need to start doing head scans 178 00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 4: to see if something is wrong internally that can't be 179 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 4: detected with the little light that the doctor puts in 180 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 4: the eyes and ears and. 181 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: Nose, And had head scans been a regular practice back then, 182 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,840 Speaker 1: we might have known what was happening inside Natalie before 183 00:10:31,920 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 1: it was too late for both her and for you. 184 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: As it turns out, as these findings manifested and took 185 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 1: her life while she was in your care. 186 00:10:41,080 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 4: And it's proven these symptoms can take hours, if not days, 187 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 4: to manifest before there's an outward symptom, as it did 188 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 4: happen in my care. 189 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: But at that time, the most recent caregiver was almost 190 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: always the one who was blamed. So let's talk about 191 00:10:57,720 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: that morning. It was around seven thirty am on October sixteenth, 192 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,280 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety five, when Cindy Beard dropped Natalie off. 193 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 4: That morning, the mother could not get her to take 194 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 4: her bottle, and babies should be hungry when they haven't 195 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 4: eaten for eight to ten hours. But I knew that 196 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:16,960 Speaker 4: she was a very sensitive baby to noise, to any 197 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,240 Speaker 4: little jolting, and that's why I decided to put her 198 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 4: away from the noise of the rest of the house. 199 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 3: Audrey tried to comb the child by propping her up 200 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 3: in a quiet bedroom in a car seat with a bottle, 201 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:32,840 Speaker 3: and she then went to ten to other children in 202 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 3: her care, and within less than an hour, when she 203 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 3: checked on Natalie, she found the child to be unresponsive, 204 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 3: turning blue. 205 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,800 Speaker 4: I thought that she was choking, and I propped her 206 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 4: upright against my body. I'm patting her on the back. 207 00:11:48,480 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 4: She's not responding, and I run outside with her in 208 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 4: my arm, screaming for a neighbor lady who comes down, 209 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 4: and I'm babbling telling her what's going on, and she's saying, 210 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 4: you've got to call nine one one. 211 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 3: The nine one one call itself is really revealing from 212 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,040 Speaker 3: the very get go. Audrey is telling the rescue people 213 00:12:09,559 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 3: that there was all kinds of formula coming out of 214 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 3: the infant's nose and mouth, and when paramedics arrived. They 215 00:12:15,960 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: said that they noted that there was formula coming out 216 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 3: of the child. They said they found a child who 217 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: had aspirated formula and it appeared by all accounts to 218 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 3: be a choking incident. 219 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:30,840 Speaker 1: So the paramedics also noted that Natalie's pupils were fixed 220 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:33,440 Speaker 1: and dilated and she was taking short breaths. She was 221 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: flown to University Hospital in Madison, where tragically she died 222 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:41,040 Speaker 1: that very night. A forensic pathologist named doctor Robert Huntington 223 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: performed the autopsy, which revealed extensive brain damage, dual retinal hemorrhaging, 224 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: bleeding in the coverings of the brain, and bruising on 225 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: her scalp. So the bleeds represent part of the triad, 226 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 1: But what about the bruise. 227 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:58,640 Speaker 4: They couldn't say the timing of it. It was maybe fresh, 228 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 4: but how fresh is for rush? Is it two hours? 229 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 4: Is it two days? 230 00:13:02,800 --> 00:13:05,640 Speaker 1: Could that have happened in transit to the hospital or 231 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: while this little child was struggling to survive? What did 232 00:13:09,200 --> 00:13:10,679 Speaker 1: Huntington make of that? 233 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 3: Doctor Huntington said he thought it was too small to 234 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: be of any consequence, and therefore he concluded this had 235 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 3: to have been shaking right. 236 00:13:18,800 --> 00:13:22,080 Speaker 1: Huntington ruled out accidental injury, saying that it was quote 237 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:29,000 Speaker 1: intentional forceful conduct directed specifically at Natalie. But this murder 238 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: diagnosi is completely ignored not only her medical history that 239 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:37,320 Speaker 1: we've already discussed, but also what should have been a 240 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 1: big red flag at the autopsy. 241 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 3: Their own brain scans showed that this child had a 242 00:13:43,520 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 3: chronic subdural hematoma, meaning previous episode of bleeding around the brain. 243 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 3: That's well established in the medical research. The chronic subdural 244 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 3: hematomas are very susceptible to rebleeding based on very little 245 00:13:56,840 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 3: additional trauma, or sometimes no trauma, just spontaneously like a 246 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: spontaneous nosebleed. And the prosecution and ultimately the court simply 247 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,760 Speaker 3: ignored all of these indications that the child was not 248 00:14:10,840 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 3: a healthy baby, and that she was a previously brain 249 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 3: injured child. 250 00:14:15,120 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 1: And these kinds of earlier bleeds are sometimes written off 251 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: as proof of previous abuse. But since they also believed 252 00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 1: that violence shaking caused an immediate demise in the SBS 253 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: proponent's mind, perhaps the alleged previous abuse wasn't forceful enough 254 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: to kill. But now the alleged repeat offender, the most 255 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: recent caregiver had just finally been caught by way of 256 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 1: the child's death, and that puts the onus on you, Audrey. 257 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 1: Now did you get the sense that Natalie's parents believed 258 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:47,840 Speaker 1: this as well? 259 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 4: So Cindy called me at noontime that day, and she 260 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:55,600 Speaker 4: was very compassionate to me, asked me what happened. She 261 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 4: was very concerned. I went to the hospital that afternoon, 262 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 4: short after four, and we hugged and we both cried, 263 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 4: and I talked to her and I told her how 264 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 4: much I cared and how much I had tried to 265 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,240 Speaker 4: help Natalie that morning. She was very kind to me, 266 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 4: and then once the prosecution went on the witch hunt 267 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 4: after me, they told her not to speak to me anymore. 268 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: So when did this witch hunt, as you so aptly 269 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: called it, begin, or when were you made aware of it? 270 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 4: I had no clue that anything was trying to be 271 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:35,400 Speaker 4: held against me until January. I was just talking to 272 00:15:35,680 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 4: anybody that came to talk to me. The chief of 273 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 4: police who had come to my house earlier, mister Geezy, 274 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 4: he was very very kind. I just answered whatever questions, 275 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 4: showed them anything they wanted to see. They took photos, 276 00:15:50,200 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 4: and I thought this was just regular protocol. 277 00:15:53,160 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 1: Typically, we see this diagnosis at the autopsy quickly turned 278 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: into an accusation, charges and arrest, but that didn't materialize 279 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: until five months later, on March nineteenth, nineteen ninety six. 280 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: Now you were charged with first degree reckless homicide. As 281 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: I mentioned earlier, you had two kids of your own 282 00:16:11,640 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: and one more on the way. Perhaps they were waiting 283 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 1: for that baby to arrive before bringing you in. I 284 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: don't know. I mean just thinking about you having to 285 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: leave behind your two young children and a newborn. It's 286 00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: too much. 287 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 4: It was horrible. My youngest was one month old. I 288 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 4: had no clue why this was even happening, why I 289 00:16:35,320 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 4: was charged, what they thought happened. I was so so scared, 290 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,080 Speaker 4: but yet I kept thinking, well, nothing happened, so everything 291 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:43,920 Speaker 4: will be okay. 292 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:45,000 Speaker 2: And I was wrong. 293 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:01,080 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by global law firm Greenberg Trowig 294 00:17:01,160 --> 00:17:04,159 Speaker 1: through its pro bono program. Greenberg Trowig leverages its more 295 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,399 Speaker 1: than twenty six hundred lawyers across forty four offices to 296 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: serve the greater good of our communities and provide equal 297 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: access to justice for all. In the field of criminal justice. 298 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: Greenberg Trowrig attorneys have exonerated and free demanded. Philadelphia represent 299 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: numerous individuals previously sentenced to life for crimes committed as 300 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 1: juveniles and resentencing hearings, and receive the American Bar Association's 301 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one Exceptional Service Award for Death Penalty Representation 302 00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 1: for their work. 303 00:17:30,800 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 3: On five death penalty cases. 304 00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: GT is reimagining what big law can be because of a 305 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 1: more just world. Only happens by design. 306 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 3: This is what we call a science dependent prosecution. The science, 307 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:54,520 Speaker 3: the medicine, the expert testimony comprised the entire case. It's 308 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,120 Speaker 3: almost unique in the law in that sense. There are 309 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:00,480 Speaker 3: really three things the prosecution had to prove. One is 310 00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:04,280 Speaker 3: what's known as the actus reus, what happened. The medical 311 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 3: professionals would come in and say, we can tell you 312 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 3: exactly what happened. This child was violently shaken. The second 313 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: thing they have to prove is what's known in the 314 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 3: laws the mensraa, the mental state of the perpetrator. And 315 00:18:16,560 --> 00:18:19,239 Speaker 3: in this case, the experts came in and testified, and 316 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 3: we can tell you what mental state the perpetrator had. 317 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: Because this would require such force the equivalent of a 318 00:18:26,560 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 3: second story fall or thirty mile an hour automobile accident, 319 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:33,919 Speaker 3: that it couldn't be done accidentally. And the third thing 320 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:36,159 Speaker 3: they have to prove is identity. The way the expert 321 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 3: would prove identity would be to say, a child so 322 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: injured would become immediately comatose, flaccid, unresponsive, and therefore the 323 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 3: last person with the child is the one who did it. 324 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:51,480 Speaker 3: That was Audrey. So that was the entirety of the 325 00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 3: case against Audrey. 326 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,520 Speaker 1: So the trial began on November eighteenth, nineteen ninety six. 327 00:18:56,600 --> 00:19:00,199 Speaker 1: The judge was Daniel Moser, and the prosecutor was to 328 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,159 Speaker 1: Da Dretchen Hayward. And the star witness for the prosecution 329 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,920 Speaker 1: was doctor Robert Huntington, the forensic pathologists who had done 330 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: the autopsy. 331 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 3: He was joined in his testimony by a number of 332 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 3: other doctors, pediatricians, ophthalmologists, a range of others who were 333 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 3: uniform in their opinion that, as they said, nothing could 334 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,360 Speaker 3: cause this triad of findings except violent shaking. 335 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,600 Speaker 1: So what did Audrey's defense attorney Steve Hurley present the 336 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,119 Speaker 1: counter all of that combined so called medical expertise. 337 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 3: The defense called their own expert witness, but reflecting how 338 00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 3: early this is in the life story of the shaking 339 00:19:41,760 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 3: baby Center hypothesis. At that point, there was virtually no 340 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 3: one who was challenging or disputing the hypothesis itself. So 341 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,439 Speaker 3: at the trial, all of the prosecution's witnesses were of 342 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:57,919 Speaker 3: one voice, were unanimous this had to be shaking, and 343 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: nothing but shaking could cause it. The defense witness also 344 00:20:02,600 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 3: believed this had to be shaking, because that's just what 345 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 3: the unquestioned dogma of the day was, and so the 346 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,200 Speaker 3: defense expert agreed it had to be shaking. The only 347 00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,600 Speaker 3: thing she introduced was but it could have happened before 348 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: the child was in Audrey's care. 349 00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:19,919 Speaker 1: Audrey, what about Natalie's mother, Cindy Beard. You mentioned that 350 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,400 Speaker 1: she didn't seem to blame you when Natalie was taken 351 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 1: to the hospital. In fact, she expressed kindness and understanding. 352 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 1: As you recall. Did she testify at the trial. 353 00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:31,400 Speaker 2: Yes, she did. 354 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 4: I don't recall a whole lot about it. She had 355 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,240 Speaker 4: a hard time, of course, when Steve Hurley cross examined 356 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 4: her and talked to her about Natalie's pre existing conditions. 357 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,440 Speaker 4: He was gentle around it, but he had some good, 358 00:20:45,480 --> 00:20:46,360 Speaker 4: strong topics. 359 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:51,359 Speaker 3: The prosecutors basically told them that Audrey murdered your child, 360 00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:55,639 Speaker 3: and despite the absurdity of that claim, that's what they 361 00:20:55,840 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 3: led them to believe. And so I think that used 362 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 3: an inevitable hostility. And who wouldn't be angry if you 363 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,880 Speaker 3: were told that your baby was murdered by someone? Right? 364 00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: I mean, these people suffered a terrible tragedy. The problem 365 00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 3: is that I'm afraid that the prosecution kind of victimized 366 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 3: the parents again by making them believe this story of 367 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 3: murder rather than what It's still awful, but not as awful, 368 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 3: perhaps that the child died of natural causes. 369 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: And other than the defenses expert Audrey, who else testified 370 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 1: on your behalf. 371 00:21:33,040 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 4: A lot of people thankfully came to my defense because 372 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,160 Speaker 4: they had seen me with Natalie day after day when 373 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 4: I had her. I interacted with a lot of moms 374 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,280 Speaker 4: and neighbors, and they would see when she would cry, 375 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 4: and I'd pick her up, and I'd pat her and 376 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,639 Speaker 4: I'd comfort her, just little things like that. 377 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 3: So, if I can just add Jason, the defense was 378 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,439 Speaker 3: built a lot on the notion that this was just 379 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: absurd to think that Audrey, with this sterling track record, 380 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 3: would have snapped in less than an hour of caring 381 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:05,800 Speaker 3: for Natalie. After not having cared for her for four 382 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 3: or five days, Stan snapped to the point of violently 383 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 3: shaking her to death. 384 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: Nonetheless, with that bevy of tuber confident medical expert testimony, 385 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:19,399 Speaker 1: it doesn't appear that even a sterling track record made 386 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: a bit of difference to the jury. On November twenty sixth, 387 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. 388 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 4: The courtroom was full. Both sides had a lot of supporters, 389 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:36,120 Speaker 4: family friends, and the closing arguments were horrifying. When Gretchen 390 00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:39,160 Speaker 4: Hayward still wants to talk like she was standing in 391 00:22:39,160 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 4: my kitchen that day telling how I had shaken this 392 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 4: child and bonked her head against a wall. And then 393 00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 4: the jury had some questions about first degree reckless homicide 394 00:22:53,400 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 4: versus second degree and utter disregard. 395 00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 2: To human life. 396 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,359 Speaker 4: My palms get sweaty just think thinking about sitting in 397 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 4: the hallway waiting, and then when we hear the jury 398 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 4: has come to a decision, and it's late at night, 399 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 4: and we go in and I heard that one awful, 400 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 4: ugly word and I thought I was going to die. 401 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,959 Speaker 4: The judge when he said eighteen years, I felt like 402 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 4: he was saying, you have taken a life so I 403 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 4: want your kids to be away from you until they're adults. 404 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 4: To this day, I still can't wrap my head around 405 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 4: trying to prepare to be torn away from them. So 406 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 4: much is taken away from you. You're put into a 407 00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:55,760 Speaker 4: concrete cell with a tin toilet and a stranger, and 408 00:23:56,680 --> 00:24:00,919 Speaker 4: you're trying to do the best you can to adapt 409 00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 4: and hold on to hope that this won't last long. Thankfully, 410 00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,120 Speaker 4: my children's dad and my parents and other family members 411 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 4: were wonderful for almost six years in bringing my children 412 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 4: almost every weekend to see me, and on top of that, 413 00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 4: I had multiple phone calls to them throughout the week. 414 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 4: We wrote a lot of letters. My kids teachers throughout 415 00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 4: the years were great to send me things, report cards, projects. 416 00:24:31,840 --> 00:24:35,240 Speaker 4: So I am really really fortunate in that area because 417 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,520 Speaker 4: a lot of moms had little of no contact with 418 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 4: their children. Then my kid's dad and I divorced about 419 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,320 Speaker 4: six years after I was in and then I didn't 420 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 4: see them as much, but I saw them often and 421 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 4: we kept in very close touch throughout all the years. 422 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:56,119 Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad to hear that. And meanwhile, you were 423 00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:00,160 Speaker 1: doing literally everything you could possibly do to prove your innocence. Now, 424 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,280 Speaker 1: in two thousand and two, your first appeal was denied, 425 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,879 Speaker 1: and then in two thousand and three, Keith and the 426 00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 1: Wisconsin Innocence Project got involved. Now, from what I understand, 427 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:13,000 Speaker 1: Audrey's case was your introduction to the SBS hypothesis and 428 00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,040 Speaker 1: eventually inspired you to start the Center for Integrity and 429 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: Forensic Science. But at that time, knowing very little about 430 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,399 Speaker 1: the science. What made you take her case. 431 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,920 Speaker 3: It was a high profile case here, so we all 432 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 3: knew about the case and knew that it was a 433 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 3: controversial conviction from the beginning. And her lawyer, Steve Hurley, 434 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 3: is a really outstanding lawyer, and her appellate lawyer was 435 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 3: Dean Strang, who many of you may remember as one 436 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 3: of Steve and Avery's lawyers in the Netflix Docuseriies Making 437 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 3: a Murderer, who was a remarkable lawyer as well. And 438 00:25:44,240 --> 00:25:46,320 Speaker 3: I knew them both well and knew that they were 439 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,720 Speaker 3: really troubled by this conviction, believing firmly that she was innocent. 440 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:53,160 Speaker 3: But the thing that really got us going is that 441 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 3: a physician at the University of Wisconsin Hospital, doctor Javid, 442 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 3: approached us and said he thought there were or problems 443 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 3: with the scientific evidence with the medical evidence that was 444 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: used to convict her, and that we should look into it. 445 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 3: We started investigating, and we found that that forensic pathologist, 446 00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 3: the medical examiner, you remember him, doctor Robert Huntington. He 447 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 3: had written a letter to the Journal of the National 448 00:26:19,240 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 3: Association of Medical Examiners in which he basically said, you 449 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 3: know what, our beliefs about timing of these injuries may 450 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 3: have been wrong. I don't think he said, we can 451 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,840 Speaker 3: actually time them to the last person with the child anymore. 452 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 3: And he based that on an experience he had autopsying 453 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 3: another child who died after being in the hospital for 454 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 3: about seventeen hours under expert supervision, and the child presented 455 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:49,840 Speaker 3: with the full triad just like Natalie, but the child 456 00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 3: had been in the hospital for seventeen hours where she 457 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:56,159 Speaker 3: was completely lucid. She was fussy and clingy, but she 458 00:26:56,400 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 3: was lucid, aware, alert, and therefore she had what in 459 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 3: the literature is known as an extended lucid interval. And 460 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,359 Speaker 3: from this doctor Huntington wrote, what we used to believe 461 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 3: that the child would become unresponsive immediately, that's not always true. 462 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:12,199 Speaker 3: We can't conclude that. 463 00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: And so the medical examiner actually admitted that he was wrong. 464 00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: That's huge. 465 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 3: He also said that having research this further, there was 466 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,000 Speaker 3: now emerging, growing body of research that was challenging the 467 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,560 Speaker 3: very hypothesis itself. And he therefore said he could no 468 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,960 Speaker 3: longer be confident with his testimony that this child was 469 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: shaken at all. And so we reached out to doctor 470 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 3: Huntington and said we were working with Audrey Edmonds. The 471 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 3: first thing he said, first thing out of his mouth, 472 00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,800 Speaker 3: was oh, Audrey Edmunds, what are we going to do 473 00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: about Audrey Edmonds? 474 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: So in two thousand and seven you got an evidentiary 475 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:51,439 Speaker 1: hearing in which you presented, among several expert witnesses, doctor 476 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: Huntington himself. 477 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 3: Doctor Huntington was courageous and forthright, and he on the 478 00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,800 Speaker 3: witness stand, and he acknowledged that he was no longer 479 00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,480 Speaker 3: comfortable with the testimony he had offered at Audrey's trial. 480 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: One he said he could no longer stand by his 481 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 3: testimony that the injury almost certainly happened within two hours 482 00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 3: of the child's collapse. Elucid interval was possible, so he 483 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:23,040 Speaker 3: couldn't time it to match Audrey's care. The second thing 484 00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 3: he said, though, which was equally powerful, was that while 485 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 3: at trial he was certain this case had to involved 486 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 3: a violent shaking, he now said because the whole field 487 00:28:33,720 --> 00:28:37,479 Speaker 3: had become so much more controversial and more uncertain, he 488 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 3: could no longer say whether there was any shaking at all, 489 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 3: or whether this might have been an impact. He said 490 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 3: that original bruise that he saw at autopsy, that he 491 00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 3: originally discounted as having been two minor to have been 492 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 3: of consequence, He said he now couldn't rule that out. 493 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 3: And the important thing about that is if that bruise, 494 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 3: if that impact of the head was the cause, it 495 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 3: could have been the product of prior abuse before the 496 00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 3: child got to Audrey's care, or it could have been 497 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:09,080 Speaker 3: an accident, because another thing that the biomechanical research shows 498 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 3: is that even minor falls, falls from just a few 499 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 3: feet generate fifty times more accelerations or more force than 500 00:29:18,320 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 3: the most violent shaking that a human being can produce, 501 00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 3: and that even those kinds of minor accidental type falls 502 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 3: do generate sufficient forces to exceed estimated injury thresholds. So 503 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 3: he basically said, I can't time it to Audrey, and 504 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 3: I can't tell you if there was shaking or whether 505 00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 3: this was intentional or accidental. The medicine doesn't answer those questions, pretty. 506 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: Much refuting his own very damning testimony at the original trial, 507 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: and to back him up, you had five other expert witnesses, 508 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:52,200 Speaker 1: all prominent physicians and pediatric neurosurgeons. 509 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 3: In response, the state called four experts, most of whom 510 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 3: had testified at the trial originally. And what we showed 511 00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 3: through the course of this was that there indeed can 512 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:08,720 Speaker 3: be elucid interval, that a child so injured can experience 513 00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: a period where they are alert and responsive for hours, 514 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 3: if not days. That although the medical science had been 515 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 3: undisputed at the time of Audrey's trial except for the 516 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 3: question of timing, since then enormous research had emerged that 517 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 3: suggested that shaking is an unlikely if impossible cause of 518 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:36,640 Speaker 3: these findings, that it's simply myth, there's no science behind it. 519 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,880 Speaker 3: And we established that there are multiple possible causes for 520 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: these findings, and that's particularly important in a case like 521 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,719 Speaker 3: this where the child was previously ill, the child had 522 00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 3: a pre existing subdural hematoma, and was sick, and was 523 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: fussy and clingy, and the research now shows that those 524 00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:01,480 Speaker 3: are all potential indications that the child is neurologically compromised 525 00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 3: and heading towards collapse. 526 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,480 Speaker 1: And yet after you had established all of this updated 527 00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:10,959 Speaker 1: scientific evidence, the original trial judge, Daniel Moser, was not persuaded. 528 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: He denied the motion and basically said, I believe the 529 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: state's experts more. 530 00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, sounds like you gave that a lot of thought. 531 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,160 Speaker 1: But of course you appealed, which brings us up to 532 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 1: January thirty first, two thousand and eight. 533 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 3: In a unanimous decision, the Court of Appeals reversed the 534 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,680 Speaker 3: trial court judge and said that Audrey had indeed presented 535 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,640 Speaker 3: newly discovered evidence in the form of new medical research 536 00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 3: that created a probability that at a retrial she would 537 00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: be acquitted. And they said the trial judge had legally 538 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 3: aired by applying the wrong standard by substituting his own 539 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 3: judgment about the guilty innocence for that of the jury, 540 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 3: and therefore Audrey was entitled to a new trial. Conviction vacated. 541 00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: Hey man, that was a great day. 542 00:31:59,400 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 3: That was a great day. 543 00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: I believe it. Audrey. Can you tell me about those 544 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: first moments on February sixth, two thousand and eight, when 545 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:11,240 Speaker 1: you found out you were finally going. 546 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:11,720 Speaker 3: To be released. 547 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 2: It was awesome. It was a snowy day. 548 00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 4: I'm working on this auto part scrapping line and my 549 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 4: supervisor's supervisor comes to me and says, Audrey, I have 550 00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 4: gotten a call and you can legally come to my 551 00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,120 Speaker 4: office to take a telephone call. 552 00:32:34,200 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: And at first I was like, oh no, I can't 553 00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 2: do that. I was scared to death. You don't touch 554 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 2: a telephone. 555 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 4: You don't even think about touching a telephone because that's 556 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 4: a form of escape. I'm this close to getting out, 557 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 4: I'm not going to do anything. And she said everything 558 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:50,840 Speaker 4: is okay. So I went to her office and we 559 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,040 Speaker 4: had a call with some people at Keith's office and 560 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,080 Speaker 4: they said the judge has a big trial next week, 561 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 4: but he will put you in for you release hearing 562 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:07,680 Speaker 4: on Wednesday at noon. That Wednesday was a terrible snowstorm day. 563 00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 4: Medisine got two feet of snow and at quarter to 564 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 4: three that day, in a massive snowstorm, I walked out. 565 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,480 Speaker 4: I didn't care where I slept that night, as long 566 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 4: as I was on the other side of the fence. 567 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: By the way, there's this iconic, beautiful photograph of Audrey. 568 00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 3: I believe in the parking lot meeting with meeting with 569 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,320 Speaker 3: her friends, being reunited with them, with the snowstorm swirling 570 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 3: around them and the wind blowing, and they're all reaching 571 00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,280 Speaker 3: out to hug each other. It's just such pure joys. 572 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 3: It makes it all amazing. 573 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 4: And I have to say on one thing, the prosecutor 574 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 4: did say that they had contacted the parents and neither 575 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,800 Speaker 4: one objected to my release, because had they objected, I 576 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 4: could have been having to go back to County jail 577 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:55,360 Speaker 4: until the July hearing. 578 00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,360 Speaker 2: So that was a big plus. 579 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: Right, So although you were out, you were still in 580 00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:00,600 Speaker 1: legal limbo until that hearing. 581 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 3: Once Audrey's conviction was overturned and the prosecution was thinking 582 00:34:05,880 --> 00:34:08,880 Speaker 3: about whether to retry them, and then ultimately when they 583 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:14,440 Speaker 3: dismissed the charges, the prosecution continued to insist publicly and 584 00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:18,400 Speaker 3: to tell the parents that Audrey had murdered their child, 585 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 3: even though they no longer had any proof, no evidence, 586 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 3: And to me, that was just morally indefensible. It was 587 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 3: such a harmful thing to do to everyone, as a prosecutor, 588 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 3: as a public servant, as a minister of justice. In theory, 589 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 3: you either prove your case in court by the requisite 590 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:40,480 Speaker 3: legal standard, or you accept the presumption of innocence, and 591 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 3: they refuse to give Audrey that they refused to give 592 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 3: Natalie Beard's family that. 593 00:34:45,440 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was atrocious. 594 00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:51,279 Speaker 4: I've never expected and I'm sorry for them, but I 595 00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 4: wish they would be big enough to say the truth 596 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 4: that the medical evidence does not support the charge. 597 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,600 Speaker 1: But they did dismiss the case on July eleventh, two 598 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: thousand eight, and you were finally exonerated of these completely ludicrous, 599 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: false and unjust charges and able to return to your 600 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: family at last. And I have to ask, I'm sure 601 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 1: everyone's wondering, how are you doing now? And how are 602 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:19,880 Speaker 1: your kids because they were, in a sense in prison 603 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: with you during your entire ordeal, doing their own sort 604 00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: of time because of this horrible persecution. 605 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 4: And they're good. They all have very good jobs. Two 606 00:35:31,800 --> 00:35:34,360 Speaker 4: of them are married. I just found out that my 607 00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 4: baby is pregnant, so I will have two grand babies. 608 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:39,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, congratulations. 609 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: I just saw my middle one over the weekend. 610 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 4: She lives in Iowa and she will be taking her 611 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,080 Speaker 4: boards to be a licensed practical nurse. And I'm just 612 00:35:48,160 --> 00:35:51,799 Speaker 4: super thankful that they are doing well. I'm sure they 613 00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 4: have a scar from this. They don't hardly talk about it. 614 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,040 Speaker 4: I think it's just too hard for them. But they 615 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 4: know that there are things still going on in my 616 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:04,120 Speaker 4: life that I speak out like I am today, and 617 00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 4: I'm grateful that there's just more and more awareness of 618 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 4: these wrongful convictions. 619 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 1: And you've also written a memoir called It Happened to Audrey, 620 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,480 Speaker 1: A terrifying journey from loving mom to accuse baby killer. 621 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,359 Speaker 1: We're going to put a link to that at our bio. 622 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to order a copy, I hope everybody does. 623 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 1: And Keith, you've also co authored a book along with 624 00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,400 Speaker 1: a number of leading experts in this field, which is 625 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: coming out very soon. I've already ordered this one, by 626 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: the way, the book is called Shaken Baby Syndrome, Investigating 627 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: the Abusive Head Trauma Controversy. I highly recommend it for 628 00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: anyone who has even a passing interest in learning more 629 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: about this terrible, faulty hypothesis that has destroyed thousands of 630 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,279 Speaker 1: people's lives. Will have a link to that in the 631 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 1: bio too. And now we've come to one of my favorite, 632 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 1: well my favorite part of the show really, which we 633 00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,840 Speaker 1: call closing arguments, and this is the part where, first 634 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:00,759 Speaker 1: of all, I'm going to thank you you Audrey for 635 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:03,560 Speaker 1: your courage and your strength and your grace and for 636 00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:07,440 Speaker 1: being here to tell your incredible story. And Keith, as always, 637 00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: thank you for being an inspiration to all of us 638 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: in the movement. And now I'm just going to turn 639 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: my mic off, kick back in my chair with my 640 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: headphones on, close my eyes, and just listen to anything 641 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: else you want to say. Keith, let's start with you. 642 00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,560 Speaker 1: Then you can just pass the mic off to Audrey 643 00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,680 Speaker 1: and she can take us off into the sunset. 644 00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:30,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, Audrey's case. In the end, the whole topic of 645 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 3: shaking baby syndrome represents what is all too common and 646 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,960 Speaker 3: wrongful convictions, and that is a rush to judgment, an 647 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:45,440 Speaker 3: unquestioning acceptance of expertise and authorities even when they are flawed, 648 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 3: and a real vindictiveness and sort of the punitive nature 649 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:52,080 Speaker 3: of the culture we live in that you know, when 650 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 3: a baby dies, somebody's got to pay for it, and 651 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 3: that's really really tragic. The struggle continues. But the bright 652 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,600 Speaker 3: side of this, that the bright note here is that 653 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 3: there is a growing body of physicians, by mechanical engineers 654 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,600 Speaker 3: and other scientists who are re examining shaking baby syndrome, 655 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:15,839 Speaker 3: the entire hypothesis who are publishing in response to it. 656 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:18,520 Speaker 3: There will be more pushback, there will be efforts to 657 00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:23,280 Speaker 3: silence or discredit critics, but eventually scientific truth will prevail. 658 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 3: I'm confident. I just hope not too many more innocent 659 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 3: people suffer the faith that Audrey suffered. 660 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 4: In the meantime, just please be aware if you're around 661 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,160 Speaker 4: a jury, really listen to truth and facts, no matter 662 00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,600 Speaker 4: how many witnesses one side has versus the other, use 663 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 4: some common sense, know the facts, know the truth, know 664 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 4: the validity of any witness. Really be open minded. Just 665 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,840 Speaker 4: because somebody is charged doesn't mean they have done the 666 00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 4: appropriate investigation and know all the facts of the case. 667 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 4: And especially in cases like mine, please please look at 668 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:08,719 Speaker 4: the medical scientific facts, not opinion. Opinion doesn't matter anymore 669 00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:12,080 Speaker 4: and can be so well discredited as there are more 670 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 4: and more people who are experts who are researching these 671 00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 4: who came to my attention, who came to Keith's attention, 672 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,319 Speaker 4: and don't look at these people that are not upgrading 673 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 4: and updating their medical knowledge. 674 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,320 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to wrongful conviction. I want to 675 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:38,360 Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, any Chelsea Lyla Robinson, 676 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: Jeff Clyburn, and Kevin Warris. The music in this production 677 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 678 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 679 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at 680 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:56,279 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 681 00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,399 Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both 682 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,759 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason vlahm. Ravel Conviction is 683 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with 684 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:12,799 Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one