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Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet. As a production

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Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative. I'm Bridget Todd and this

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Speaker 1: is There Are No Girls on the Internet. Mike, Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to the show. Thanks for being here.

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Speaker 2: Hey, thanks for having me. It's been a couple of weeks.

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Speaker 2: Nice to see you again.

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Speaker 1: Nice to see you too. And here's a couple of

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Speaker 1: stories the y'all might have missed on the Internet this week.

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Speaker 1: So we've talked about the nightmare that is autonomous driverless

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Speaker 1: cars being tested on public roads. When I first heard

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Speaker 1: about this, I was like, Oh, there's no way that

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Speaker 1: they're just testing autonomous driverless cars on the street while

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Speaker 1: regular people are just like walking around going about their business.

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Speaker 1: But it turns out that was exactly what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Ordinary people like you and me are serving as unpaid

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Speaker 1: crash test dummies for driverless technology by companies like crews

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Speaker 1: on public roads. But that is maybe changing. After a

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Speaker 1: pretty bombshell situation over in San Francisco, sf Gate reports

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Speaker 1: the California Department of Motor Vehicles has suspended cruises permits

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Speaker 1: to deploy driverless vehicles as commercial taxis in the state

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Speaker 1: or run any tests on public streets without backup drivers

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Speaker 1: behind the wheel. So this suspension all stems from a

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Speaker 1: pretty bad crash that happened in San Francisco on October

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Speaker 1: second that left a pedestrian severely injured. In that crash,

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Speaker 1: an unrelated car struck a pedestrian, knocking them into the

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Speaker 1: path of a driverless Cruise car. The autonomous vehicle raked hard,

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Speaker 1: but still collided with and ran over the pedestrian before

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Speaker 1: coming to a complete stop. Cruise representatives then met with

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Speaker 1: officials from both the DMV and the California Highway Patrol,

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Speaker 1: and during that meeting, Cruise employees played footage from the

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Speaker 1: cars on board cameras, which ended once the car came

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Speaker 1: to a stop. So it looks like, oh okay, well

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Speaker 1: the Cruise stopped like it should have. End of story. However,

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Speaker 1: as sf Gate reports, DMV officials say that they later

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Speaker 1: learned that there was more to the story and requested

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Speaker 1: additional footage from Cruise, which the company sent ten days

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Speaker 1: after the initial meeting. The extended footage showed that after

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Speaker 1: the initial stop, the car then resumed driving and attempted

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Speaker 1: a quote pullover maneuver, traveling about twenty feet while the

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Speaker 1: pedestrian was still caught under the vehicle, So basically it

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Speaker 1: kind of sounds like Cruise was trying to hide the

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Speaker 1: most damning part of what happened from California regulators.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's terrifying. If there's one thing scarier than like

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Speaker 2: getting hit by an autonomous car, it's being dragged around

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Speaker 2: underneath an autonomous car.

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Speaker 1: And then having the company that makes the autonomous car

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Speaker 1: basically lie about it. Cruise failed to disclose that the

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Speaker 1: av executed a pullover maneuver that increased the risk of

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Speaker 1: and may have caused further injury to the pedestrian. The

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Speaker 1: DMV wrote in a report, Cruise's omission hinders the ability

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Speaker 1: of the apartment to effectively and timely evaluate the safe

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Speaker 1: operation of Cruise's vehicles and puts the safety of the

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Speaker 1: public at risk. Now, this is a really awful story,

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Speaker 1: and there is a lot I could say about it,

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Speaker 1: right Like, I think it highlights how dangerous it is

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Speaker 1: to have the public basically serving as unpaid and unwitting

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Speaker 1: crash test dummies for technology that isn't safe anytime they

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Speaker 1: leave their homes. I also think that cities that allow

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Speaker 1: these cars to be tested in the first place on

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Speaker 1: public streets, are really putting corporate interests and business interests

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Speaker 1: above public safety, which should be number one. And on

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Speaker 1: top of that, never mind the fact that crew's employees,

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Speaker 1: I guess, felt fine lying to public safety officials to

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Speaker 1: try to keep their dangerous cars, cars that they knew

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Speaker 1: were dangerous, on the road with the public. So yes

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Speaker 1: to all of that, But I really want to take

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Speaker 1: this moment to really applaud sf Gate. They have really

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Speaker 1: been on this story and staying on this story since

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Speaker 1: day one, and you know, I don't think we would

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Speaker 1: know any of this information. I don't think the public

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Speaker 1: would know any of this if not for them. It

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Speaker 1: really shows the importance of having robust local journalism who

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Speaker 1: is going to get a story and stay on a story,

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Speaker 1: and how important that is for public safety because we

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Speaker 1: as the public deserve to know this information. If you're

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Speaker 1: walking around in San Francisco, you deserve to know how

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Speaker 1: these driverless cars are being deployed and whether or not

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Speaker 1: they're safe, because you can encounter them and you could

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Speaker 1: be hit like this pedestrian was. And so I really

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Speaker 1: think of all the different angles of this story, the

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Speaker 1: one that to me, I just really want to double

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Speaker 1: click on is just the importance of having robust local

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Speaker 1: journalism at a time when local journalism is being decimated

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Speaker 1: all over the country. It's local outlets and local papers

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Speaker 1: and local journalists who are going to stay on the

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Speaker 1: stories that really impact all of our day to day

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Speaker 1: lives locally. So thank you to the journalists who stayed

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Speaker 1: on this story to help better inform the public about

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Speaker 1: a public safety risk they're all facing. Let's move on

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Speaker 1: to Google. A journey just found Google guilty of sexual

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Speaker 1: de discrimination and awarded a female Google Cloud executive named

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Speaker 1: Ulca Rowe, who filed a complaint one point one million dollars.

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Speaker 1: Roe said that Google gave higher paid to less experienced

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Speaker 1: male cohorts and that it later denied her promotions in

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Speaker 1: retaliation for her complaints. So it sounds like Roe was

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Speaker 1: passed over for a promotion to vice president, and after

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Speaker 1: she did not get that job, it was given to

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Speaker 1: a man who neither applied nor was qualified, which, like ugh,

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Speaker 1: tail is all this time? Am I right?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: That would be refrustrating.

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Speaker 1: So after she filed the lawsuit, the company again denied

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Speaker 1: her another similar promotion. Another point of contention is how

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Speaker 1: Google and many other tech companies deal with their level system.

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Speaker 1: Roe says that she was initially brought in at a

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Speaker 1: lower level than she should have been when she was hired.

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Speaker 1: She came to the job with twenty three years of

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Speaker 1: experience in the financial services and tech sector, but she

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Speaker 1: was hired as a level eight employee, while other men

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Speaker 1: who were hired at the same time as her and

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Speaker 1: allegedly had less experience, were hired at a level nine.

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Speaker 1: As a level eight employee, Roe made about seven hundred

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Speaker 1: fifty thousand dollars a year, while some of the level

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Speaker 1: nine employees made over one million dollars a year. Now,

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Speaker 1: this level system is something we hear a lot about

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Speaker 1: in tech hiring. It's the same kind of thing that

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Speaker 1: whistle blower Efoma Uzoma talked about experiencing at Pinterest when

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Speaker 1: she was on the podcast. Depending on what level you're

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Speaker 1: initially hired in at, you're kind of locked into that

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Speaker 1: that salary, and it's sort of like you're making if

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Speaker 1: they bring you at the wrong level, you're sort of

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Speaker 1: making less from the gecko.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense. I think that's something that a

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Speaker 2: lot of people can probably relate to. And you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got two reactions to that. One, God, I hate

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Speaker 2: the whole like level system and how like rigid it is.

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Speaker 2: And two people at Google are making like seven hundred

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Speaker 2: and fifty thousand dollars a year. Am I the only

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Speaker 2: one who is just learning this? Like that's a lot

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Speaker 2: of money.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people at Google make bank I.

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Speaker 2: Think, Yeah. I mean I guess I knew that, but

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Speaker 2: I had not looked at a number.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like you might be rethinking your dedicating your

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Speaker 1: life to science and like public health and like research.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're in the wrong field.

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Speaker 2: I guess I'm still into it, but uh, you know this,

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Speaker 2: this is some new knowledge. I'm just gonna like sit

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Speaker 2: with this for a minute.

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Speaker 1: If you work at Google, it can be totally anonymous.

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Speaker 1: Drop us a note and let us know, Like, what's

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Speaker 1: what's the sound ofy vibe?

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Speaker 4: Like over there?

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Speaker 1: Inquiring minds want to know.

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Speaker 2: If we were, like hypothetically coming off of a podcast,

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Speaker 2: what kind of level would we be coming on at?

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Speaker 1: We should are you where we should start rolling out

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Speaker 1: levels for the contributors of this podcast, Like I'm obviously

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Speaker 1: a level ten.

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Speaker 2: Or is it?

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Speaker 1: Is it like out of one hundred? I don't know

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Speaker 1: the levels.

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Speaker 2: I mean, a hundred feels like way too many. I

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Speaker 2: think the federal government has like fifteen or sixteen or

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Speaker 2: something we should I should know that I live in DC. Uh,

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Speaker 2: that feels like a reasonable number of levels.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So back to Google. The jury found that while

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Speaker 1: Google did treat Roe differently than other employees because of

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Speaker 1: her gender, she was unable to prove that the company

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Speaker 1: violated New York law by paying her less than two

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Speaker 1: of her male counterparts. Google, I have to say, like,

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Speaker 1: it brings me no pleasure to say this, but it's

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Speaker 1: just the truth does have a history around gender bias complaints,

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Speaker 1: and this lawsuit that Roe filed was the first lawsuit

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Speaker 1: after Google staff walked out to protest have a company

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Speaker 1: handled sexual misconduct claims by a male senior staffer, which

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Speaker 1: basically involved like giving this guy who had been accused

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Speaker 1: of sexual mistreatment and harassment a golden parachute for being

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Speaker 1: a creep. Roe's attorney, Kara Green, credited quote the efforts

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Speaker 1: of thousands of Googlers who walked out in twenty eighteen

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Speaker 1: and demanded reforms. Over twenty thousand Google employees and contractors

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Speaker 1: staged a walk out protest that year after a New

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Speaker 1: York Times investigation revealed that the company had given an

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Speaker 1: Android co founder ninety million dollars as he left the

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Speaker 1: company over sexual assault allegations. So it really just seems

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Speaker 1: like the vibe at Google that the staffers were protested

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Speaker 1: was that if you were accused of misconduct, if you

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Speaker 1: were a creep, if you were somebody who was a

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Speaker 1: sex past at the job, you might be given a

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Speaker 1: golden parachute and a big fat check to go away.

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Speaker 1: It really highlights something that I think gets missed in

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Speaker 1: conversations like this, which is that keeping abusers around, hiring abusers,

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Speaker 1: promoting abusers, like empowering abusers is not just wrong because

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Speaker 1: it's wrong and like you shouldn't be empowering creeps in

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Speaker 1: your organization, but it costs money. Ninety million dollars payout

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Speaker 1: to somebody who was a creep, that is a lot

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Speaker 1: of money. And so for all of the reasons why organizations,

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Speaker 1: especially organizations as powerful as Google, but all organizations should

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Speaker 1: not be in the business of, you know, coddling at a

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Speaker 1: empowering creeps and abusers. It also is very expensive. It

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Speaker 1: is a bad business decision to continue to empower people

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Speaker 1: like this, folks should really listen to the episode that

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Speaker 1: we did with the Foma Uzoma that I mentioned earlier.

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Speaker 1: After filing a discrimination suit against her former employee Pinterest,

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Speaker 1: Ufoma went on to draft legislation that invalidates NDAs if

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Speaker 1: somebody is facing racial mistreatment. Previously, NDAs could be made

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Speaker 1: invalid if somebody was facing gender based harassment or mistreatment,

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Speaker 1: but none of the mistreatment was racial in nature. After

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Speaker 1: facing both racial and gender based harassment at Pinterest, of

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Speaker 1: Foma's silence, no more, legislation changed all of that. But

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Speaker 1: back to Google, I really just think that like they

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Speaker 1: are a company that likes to talk a big game

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Speaker 1: around inclusion and diversity and gender equity, Like they have

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Speaker 1: definitely had efforts there that I would applaud. So like

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Speaker 1: I can't speak to like how sincere or not those

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Speaker 1: efforts are, but it really does sound like the vibe

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Speaker 1: there is that people from traditionally marginalized backgrounds can work

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Speaker 1: at Google, Like they can be there, but don't take

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Speaker 1: up too much space, right, Like don't demand your worth,

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Speaker 1: don't demand pay equity. You can be here, but like

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Speaker 1: we don't really want you to be here. That seems

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Speaker 1: to be the vibe I'm getting from what folks are saying.

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Speaker 2: Wow, what a terrible vibe at a tech company.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like that line. I can't remember where I

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Speaker 1: heard it, But diversity is being invited to the party,

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Speaker 1: Inclusion is being asked to dance.

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Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back.

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Speaker 1: So if you listen to this podcast, you already know

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Speaker 1: that social media platforms have such a tight grip on

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Speaker 1: all of our lives, and this week Facebook got the

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Speaker 1: biggest legal channel to the toxic gript the platform holds

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Speaker 1: on young people. Forty one different states and Washington, DC

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Speaker 1: all took Facebook to court this week, alleging that Facebook

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Speaker 1: harms children by building addictive features into Instagram and Facebook.

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Speaker 1: Y'all might recall wristleblower Francis Hougan's twenty twenty one report

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Speaker 1: in the Wall Street Journal all about how Facebook knowingly

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Speaker 1: harmed the mental health of young people, especially teen girls.

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Speaker 1: So this lawsuit really stems from some of the charges

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Speaker 1: that we found out from that report. The Washington Post

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Speaker 1: reports a two hundred and thirty three page federal complaint

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Speaker 1: alleges that Facebook engaged in a scheme to exploit young

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Speaker 1: users for profit. By misleading them about safety features and

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Speaker 1: the prevalence of harmful content, harvesting their data, and violating

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Speaker 1: federal laws on children's privacy. State officials claim that the

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Speaker 1: company knowingly deployed changes to keep children on the site

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Speaker 1: to the detriment of their well being, violating consumer protection laws.

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Speaker 1: States say that Facebook designed psychologically manipulative product features to

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Speaker 1: induce young users compulsive and extended use. The company's algorithms

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Speaker 1: were designed to push kids and teenagers into rabbit holes

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Speaker 1: of toxic and harmful content, with features like infinite scroll

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Speaker 1: and persistent alerts to hook young users. The Attorney's General

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Speaker 1: also charged Facebook with violating a federal children's online privacy law,

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Speaker 1: accusing it of unlawfully collecting the personal data of its

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Speaker 1: youngest users without their parents' permission. If there's one thing

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Speaker 1: that folks might know about American government and politics and

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Speaker 1: democracy is that it doesn't always work so well. There's

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Speaker 1: you know, I think we've seen a lot of examples

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Speaker 1: of that pretty recently, of how the works can kind

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Speaker 1: of get gummed up. So it is kind of a

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Speaker 1: rare thing when both Republicans and Democrats come together to

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Speaker 1: stick it to anybody and that is what's happening with Facebook.

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Speaker 1: It is a rare instance a bipartisanship. Colorado Attorney General

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Speaker 1: Phil Wiser, who is co leading the federal suit set

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Speaker 1: at a news conference at a time in our nation

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Speaker 1: is not seeing the level of bipartisan problem solving collaboration

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Speaker 1: that we need. You can see it here among this

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Speaker 1: group of attorneys general. He actually compared Facebook to big tobacco, saying,

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Speaker 1: just like big tobacco and vaping companies have done in

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Speaker 1: years past, Meta chose to maximize its profits at the

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Speaker 1: expense of public health, specifically harming the health of the

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Speaker 1: youngest among us. As somebody who kind of works in

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Speaker 1: the tobacco cessation space, what do you think about that comparison.

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Speaker 2: I think it's a good comparison. I think it's an

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Speaker 2: apt one. Yeah. I think there's a long history of

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Speaker 2: attorneys general from the states getting together and actually taking

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Speaker 2: action through courts when Congress and the federal government has failed.

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Speaker 2: And I think the comparison of Facebook to big tobacco

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Speaker 2: is a good one. I think it's absolutely spot on

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Speaker 2: that they have mined the health and well being of

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Speaker 2: young people for their own private profits and sort of

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Speaker 2: exported all the harms onto the rest of us, whether

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Speaker 2: those harms come in the form of increased medical bills

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Speaker 2: that states have to pick up for their populace, or

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Speaker 2: all the societal harms that are done. When we have

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Speaker 2: a generation of young people who are suffering from all

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Speaker 2: the mental mental health challenges, I guess that social media

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Speaker 2: has created in them over the past ten years. So

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Speaker 2: I think it's a good comparison.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know who doesn't think it's a good comparison. Facebook.

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Speaker 1: You might be wondering what is Facebook's response to all

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Speaker 1: this ben Well, not a very good one if you

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Speaker 1: asked me. Facebook spokesperson Lisa Crenshaw said in a statement

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Speaker 1: that the company is quote disappointed that instead of working

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Speaker 1: productively with companies across the industry to create clear, age

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Speaker 1: appropriate standards for the many apps teams use, the nice

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Speaker 1: general have chosen this path. Well, oh, we're so disappointed.

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Speaker 1: We can't hurt kids for profit anymore. Can't a company

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Speaker 1: get rich off of hurting kids anymore? Or is this

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Speaker 1: even America?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny to hear them complain about wanting

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Speaker 2: like the government to create standards across the many apps

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Speaker 2: that teens use and like, you know, there's like two

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Speaker 2: maybe three, right like Instagram, TikTok, Snapchat, Like these are

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Speaker 2: the apps kids are using, right, Like, maybe there's a

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Speaker 2: couple more. But the idea that the government should be

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Speaker 2: like the end all be all to create standards and regulations.

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Speaker 2: This same spokesperson, I'm sure turned around the very next

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Speaker 2: day and talked about all the reasons why the government

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Speaker 2: should not be creating regulation and standards of private industry.

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Speaker 1: Oh, it's complete bs. Like if you were to take

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Speaker 1: that statement at face value, you'd be like, okay, great,

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Speaker 1: so then you agree the government needs to be regulating

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Speaker 1: the f out of your harmful product. As you've just said,

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Speaker 1: it's like.

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Speaker 2: Who whoa, whoa, whoa whoa. You're trying to hurt small businesses.

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Speaker 2: Think about the small social media farmers out there, and

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Speaker 2: there's small plots of land, you know, just trying to

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Speaker 2: tend to the the family farm raised an engagement. YO.

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Speaker 1: Back to the big tobacco comparison for a second. Grow

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Speaker 1: Having grown up in Virginia, I truly they truly like

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Speaker 1: had us thinking that Philip Morris, which was the biggest

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Speaker 1: tobacco company in Virginia when I lived there. They probably

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Speaker 1: probably still are. What I'm saying, they changed their name

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Speaker 1: to Altria. Also, isn't that funny that comparison. Remember when

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Speaker 1: Francis Hougen blew the whistle on Facebook and they were like, Facebook,

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Speaker 1: who we don't know her? It's a meta now like

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Speaker 1: talk about that, talk about taking a page from big

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Speaker 1: Tobacco's playbook, But they truly had Us Virginians out there

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Speaker 1: believing that, like the majority of people producing tobacco. For

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Speaker 1: Philip Morris, this like massive corporation where like mon Pa farmer,

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Speaker 1: mon Paw Virginia farmer.

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Speaker 2: Sure, and you gotta have a big family so the

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Speaker 2: kids can help roll the cigarettes and then bring them

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Speaker 2: down to the community store and a horse drawn carriage. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's complete nonsense. It's like a global franchise.

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Speaker 1: Keeping in mind with that comparison, you would always hear

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Speaker 1: tobacco companies talking about things like, oh, we're making a

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Speaker 1: safer cigarette, or like oh, we like we want there

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Speaker 1: to be regulation, like we're really trying to keep our

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Speaker 1: products away from kids, YadA, YadA, YadA, talking such a

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Speaker 1: big game. I feel like it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where it's like, if you really cared about safety, you

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Speaker 1: would shut down. And I feel the same thing about Facebook.

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Speaker 1: There are plenty of tech platforms that are responsible for

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Speaker 1: plenty of harm, but there are platforms out there that's

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Speaker 1: there like harmful, but they also do something that is

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Speaker 1: a value. Like Google is a company that definitely spreads harm,

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Speaker 1: but like they're the world's biggest search engine. You could say, like, okay,

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Speaker 1: it's providing value. I would actually argue that at this point,

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Speaker 1: I think Facebook is such a bad actor that I

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Speaker 1: think that like it is like the opposite of a

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Speaker 1: do goodery factory, a do battery factory. Like they're just

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Speaker 1: like a marketplace for evil and doing bad things.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're bad news. I mean, they've just demonstrated over

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Speaker 2: and over again that they're gonna choose profits every time

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Speaker 2: over the health of young people, the health of entire populations. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they've been very clear with us.

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Speaker 1: And I think, ultimately, I mean, stepping back, I think

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Speaker 1: that the business model of tech platforms like Facebook are

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Speaker 1: just at odds with not doing increasing harms to kids.

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Speaker 1: Like think about how Facebook intentionally rolled out reels to

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Speaker 1: compete with TikTok because they knew that young people were

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Speaker 1: flocking the TikTok for short form video. Facebook has a

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Speaker 1: very clear business and financial interest in keeping young people

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Speaker 1: hooked on the platform and keeping young people spending as

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Speaker 1: much time on the platform as possible so that they

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Speaker 1: can make more and more money. Like, don't forget that.

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Speaker 1: Right before Francis Hougan released that really damning report we

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Speaker 1: were talking about about Facebook knowingly harming children, Facebook was

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Speaker 1: already in the mix building a social media platform specifically

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Speaker 1: for kids under the age of thirteen. Think about that.

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Speaker 1: They only scrabbed this like Facebook for kids they were

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Speaker 1: making after pressure from like advocacy groups, state attorneys general,

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Speaker 1: and lawmakers. So like, let's be for real, like, regardless

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Speaker 1: of what measures they might trot out to say that

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Speaker 1: they're trying to like make Facebook safer, Like, oh, like,

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Speaker 1: here's a little alert that we've got where your kids

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Speaker 1: spends too much time on Facebook, he gets a little

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Speaker 1: beep or like, you know, parental control, whatever little things

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Speaker 1: they are rolling out to sort of signal that they're

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Speaker 1: doing anything. At the end of the day, they have

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Speaker 1: a vested interest and making sure that kids are locked

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Speaker 1: in and hooked on their harmful products as much as possible.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, we shouldn't lose sight of the

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Speaker 2: fact that just because they are extremely good at turning

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Speaker 2: that harmful business model into profits, they didn't invent it.

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Speaker 2: And they're certainly not the only ones. Right, Like any

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Speaker 2: of these tech companies where their main revenue is advertising,

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Speaker 2: all those same pressures are there, right, Like Google doesn't

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Speaker 2: have a social media platform, but they definitely have an

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Speaker 2: interest in keeping our attention hooked so they can learn

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Speaker 2: more about us, learn our preferences, sell us ads. You know,

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Speaker 2: TikTok is right there too. You know, it's surveillance capitalism.

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Speaker 2: That's like inherently the entire thing of.

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Speaker 1: It, exactly. And I think, I mean, I think I've

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Speaker 1: said this before, but truly we really got to ask ourselves,

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Speaker 1: is this okay with us? Do we think that our children,

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Speaker 1: the most vulnerable and youngest among us, the people who

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Speaker 1: we as adults have been, you know, have a responsibility

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Speaker 1: to keep safe and keep from harm. Is it okay

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Speaker 1: to feed them through Facebook's meat grinder so that Mark

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Speaker 1: Zuckerberg can get another zero at the end of his

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Speaker 1: bank account. That is really the question that I think

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Speaker 1: that we should be asking, because they're not going to

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Speaker 1: stop targeting kids unless someone makes them stop. That is

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Speaker 1: very clear to me, right, Like, I will say that

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Speaker 1: when they were rolling out their Facebook for kids under thirteen,

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Speaker 1: they said that they were doing that because they found

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Speaker 1: that kids were lying about their age to get on Instagram. Like,

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Speaker 1: I think you have to be older than thirteen to

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Speaker 1: get on Instagram. So that really tells me all I

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Speaker 1: need to know, right that, Like, rather than figure out

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Speaker 1: what they can do to keep kids from accessing products

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Speaker 1: that they know are harmful that they make, They're like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: just make one just for kids. We'll make a harmful

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Speaker 1: product just for them. It'll be like if if well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, it's gonna say it. We'll be like

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Speaker 1: if tobacco companies made a cigarette for kids.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they've definitely done that. They've you know, they've got

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Speaker 2: menthol they've got candy flavored cigarettes, they've got camel crush,

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Speaker 2: They've got a thousand products, all of them pushing the

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Speaker 2: boundaries of what's legal to so they can market directly

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Speaker 2: to kids. So I have a slightly unpopular opinion about

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Speaker 2: like we need rules to protect kids from big social media. Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's good that we have that. We should have special

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Speaker 2: protection for kids. We like kind of don't right now,

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Speaker 2: and like it would be great if we had some,

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Speaker 2: but I don't know that we should stop there, like

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Speaker 2: because I think like social media is out of control

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Speaker 2: for people of all ages, and just focusing on the

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Speaker 2: harm that it does to kids, I feel it's like

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Speaker 2: maybe like step one or like it's something which would

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Speaker 2: be better than nothing. But there are plenty of like

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Speaker 2: older adults like me included, who would really benefit from

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Speaker 2: I don't know, like strong like some sort of privacy

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Speaker 2: protections in this country to protect us from companies that

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Speaker 2: just you know, are like harvesting all of our private

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Speaker 2: data to try to sell us ad ads and also

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Speaker 2: serving up content that like riles us up, which maybe

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Speaker 2: is maybe is not accurate and turns us against other people.

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Speaker 2: I think I feel that social media protection is one

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Speaker 2: area where like save the children is perhaps steering us

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Speaker 2: away from like bigger, more compre fixes.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I completely agree. I think that everybody deserves a safer,

435
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 1: better social media landscape. Full sap end of sentence. I

436
00:25:12,040 --> 00:25:17,280
Speaker 1: think the reason why lawmakers so often focus on children one,

437
00:25:17,400 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: it's the thing that we've talked about a lot when

438
00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 1: we've talked about legislation like the Kids Online Safety Act,

439
00:25:22,200 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: things like that, Like, when something is presented as a

440
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: harm to kids, I think it justifies a lot more action,

441
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: whether that action is good or bad. I think it

442
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:33,879
Speaker 1: gets people like, oh, we have to do something. But

443
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: I also do so I see your point that, like

444
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:43,840
Speaker 1: everybody deserves data privacy, everybody deserves a better, safer internet landscape. Absolutely, yes,

445
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: But I do think there is a philosophical point to

446
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 1: be made about what happens when tech companies target kids,

447
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,199
Speaker 1: what happens when kids privacy is for sale? You know,

448
00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: I think like it raises a kind of deeper philosophical

449
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,640
Speaker 1: question of what tech companies feel entitled to, who they

450
00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: feel comfortable harming, and what we as adults are also

451
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 1: okay with. Does that make sense? Like, so, I agree

452
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,520
Speaker 1: with you kind of on paper, but philosophically, I do

453
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: think that something is very different when Mark Zuckerberg feels

454
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: completely fine giving a generation of young girls, you know,

455
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:27,719
Speaker 1: body image issues and disordered eating knowingly to make money.

456
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it does feel worse there. Yeah, it shouldn't be

457
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,000
Speaker 2: okay to do that to anybody, but definitely not to

458
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 2: kids for sure.

459
00:26:35,240 --> 00:26:37,520
Speaker 1: You know, I was at a talk with the founder

460
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 1: of a great organization called glitch UK, which is an

461
00:26:40,440 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: online safety advocacy organization, And she made this great point,

462
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 1: like what other kind of industry would public tolerate this

463
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: kind of behavior from? Like if there was a food

464
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,360
Speaker 1: product that was popular with kids and adults ate it too,

465
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: where some big percentage of people who ate it got

466
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: very sick, would we accept that they could just keep

467
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:02,239
Speaker 1: selling it, but they could sell it to kids, they

468
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: could target kids, they could get kids addicted to it.

469
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: Would we accept that it would be okay that that

470
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 1: company would be not transparent at all about how their

471
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: product is affecting people. Would we accept that? Probably not?

472
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 1: And that is exactly what is happening with big tech companies.

473
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: And I thought that was such an interesting comparison because

474
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: really no other sector would we tolerate that from, possibly

475
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 1: the gun industry, but not really a lot of others.

476
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good analogy. And you know, Bridget you

477
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:36,000
Speaker 2: and I just the other day we're talking about food

478
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:41,280
Speaker 2: safety regulation and how that's an area where the public

479
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: really demands this extremely high level of safety that does

480
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: not translate to other industries. Right, do you remember that?

481
00:27:50,200 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 4: I do?

482
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,879
Speaker 1: People are going to be thinking like, what kind of

483
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:56,919
Speaker 1: conversations are Bridget and Mike hatheic when they're not a podcast. Oh,

484
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,560
Speaker 1: you know, just a good just a conversation about food

485
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: safety regulations in the United States, you know.

486
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, food safety and risk perception. You know, how people

487
00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 2: think about all the different risks in our lives and

488
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 2: how inconsistent it can seem where there will be you know,

489
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:18,119
Speaker 2: something like food safety, where like nobody wants to get diarrhea,

490
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: so we have all these like intense laws about food

491
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,919
Speaker 2: safety that do keep us safe and they're you know,

492
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 2: good things. You know, I don't want diarrhea. But then

493
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: there are also all these other areas like social media,

494
00:28:32,960 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 2: for example, where like the mental health of young people,

495
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 2: particularly girls, is being like systematically reduced, and we all

496
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 2: just kind of collectively shrug like, Oh, that's just how

497
00:28:47,760 --> 00:28:49,239
Speaker 2: it is, you know, you know how it is.

498
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 1: What was the phrase that you used to explain that phenomenon.

499
00:28:53,280 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 1: There was a phrase for it that I never heard before.

500
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: Oh God, I was trying not to get into it.

501
00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,960
Speaker 2: But if you're gonna, you know, subject the listeners to.

502
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,800
Speaker 2: I was talking about the concept of dread risk, which

503
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: is a concept from risk perception from the psychologist Paul

504
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 2: Slovak who studied this very phenomenon of risk perception and

505
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: how people around the world. He mainly looked at Americans,

506
00:29:19,920 --> 00:29:24,520
Speaker 2: but he also studied people from other countries about the

507
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:32,240
Speaker 2: different risks that they perceived and they're demand for the authorities,

508
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: you know, typically government to take some sort of actions

509
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 2: to protect them from it. And he found that there

510
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: were two factors that determined how people perceived risk and

511
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 2: the extent to which they demanded protection from it. One

512
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 2: of them was the actual risk. You know, what is

513
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: the likelihood that this is going to cause someone to

514
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 2: be injured or killed, you know, per one thousand or

515
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: per one hundred thousand people. That's obviously an important one,

516
00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: but then almost equally important with the concept of dread risk,

517
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 2: which is how scary is it? Right? It's like the

518
00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: idea that dying in your sleep from carbon monoxide poisoning

519
00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 2: is less horrific than being like torn apart by wolves

520
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: or something. In either scenario, you're dead, But one of

521
00:30:22,240 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 2: them seems much worse than the other, right, And that's

522
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: the concept of dread that it just like feels terrifying

523
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 2: in some particular way, and it feels like social media,

524
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: here is an area where that dread factor is really reduced, right,

525
00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: Like it's just stuff that happens on computers. It just

526
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 2: happens to girls. It's pretty long term, like, oh, I

527
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:51,760
Speaker 2: guess it makes the girls sad hahaha, big deal. But

528
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,320
Speaker 2: it is like a very serious thing, and I think

529
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: it's I don't know, useful to think about what are

530
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:05,560
Speaker 2: the factors or the characteristics of some particular risk and

531
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 2: how does that inform the public's demand or lack of

532
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: demand for government to do something about it.

533
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: Look at you throwing around your psychology PhD folks, in

534
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: case you didn't know, Mike has a psychology degree.

535
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 2: Yeah they all know. Now, I'm sorry. Everyone, you ask,

536
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:22,680
Speaker 2: no it is?

537
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 3: It is?

538
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: It is useful? I ask it is. It's interesting and

539
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: it's useful. And like, I do think it makes sense

540
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:30,160
Speaker 1: that like there are just some things where we're like

541
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 1: we got to regulate that, and then the were It's

542
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 1: like there are other things that were just like the

543
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: risk is I don't know, like less real or less

544
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 1: acute or something mm hmmm. And I think that we're

545
00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 1: only now starting to really grapple with the reality that

546
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: that risk presents us with because I think it maybe

547
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: took a little while for it to be apparent, Like

548
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 1: it seems like social media has been around forever, but

549
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: it really isn't that old if you think about it.

550
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:55,920
Speaker 1: I think that we're really starting to get to know

551
00:31:56,040 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 1: the very serious offline impacts now, and so I think like, yeah,

552
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: we're just sort of like catching up. I'm like, oh, actually,

553
00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: this is very serious. We need to do something.

554
00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's it's often a little bit delayed, right,

555
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: Like it's not like somebody posts on social media and

556
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,480
Speaker 2: then all of a sudden their self esteem is destroyed

557
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 2: and they commit an act of self harm or something like.

558
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 2: Those things are decoupled in time in a way that

559
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: really makes it seem like it's not as big of

560
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 2: a factor as as it is. But yeah, it's it's

561
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: social media. It's scary. It's has a profound impact on

562
00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 2: young people.

563
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk more about that, because speaking of youth

564
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,920
Speaker 1: and social media, I listen, I am a certified old

565
00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:48,239
Speaker 1: I am not a gen zer, but I do think

566
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: it's really important to be paying close attention to what

567
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: young people say they are experiencing when it comes to

568
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: digital media and digital culture and when they talk about

569
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 1: what they want. The Center for Scholars and Story Tell

570
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: UCLA just released a really fascinating report on what they're

571
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: calling Teens and Screens, all about analyzing what different young

572
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 1: people want from their media experiences. We will put a

573
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:13,320
Speaker 1: link to the report in the show notes, but it's

574
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 1: like fascinating. It's also like just to nerd out for

575
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: a minute. It's like really nicely designed. Like people send

576
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: me reports to cover on the podcast all the time,

577
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, this DNSE sixty five page document

578
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 1: with single spacing and no images. I'll definitely read this.

579
00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,680
Speaker 1: Thanks for sending it. Oh, really big pdf.

580
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,840
Speaker 2: Cool, Thanks, But this.

581
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,760
Speaker 1: One was actually interesting to read. It's like designed very nicely.

582
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really beautifully designed as colorful. They did an

583
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 2: excellent job packaging it up. And I also really like

584
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 2: that this survey focused on what young people want, like

585
00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 2: what their interests are. I feel like most surveys population

586
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 2: surveys that we have of young people are focused on

587
00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 2: their behaviors. What drugs are they doing, what other risky

588
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 2: behaviors are they doing? What are their attitudes about this

589
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:13,040
Speaker 2: or that thing that you know, us old people are in,

590
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:15,279
Speaker 2: you know, care about and so we want to know

591
00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 2: what the young people think about it because we care

592
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 2: about it. But this one, really, I don't know. I

593
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: haven't seen one like this before where it was like

594
00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:26,239
Speaker 2: what do young people want?

595
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's such a good point because so often

596
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: I feel like it's us old like voyeuristically like like

597
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:39,160
Speaker 1: what are the youth up to? Like what are they thinking? Like,

598
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's kind of nice to give young

599
00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:43,440
Speaker 1: people a little bit of space to talk about what

600
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 1: their their wants, their needs. And it really like, as

601
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: a a media maker of a kind, it really almost

602
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 1: challenged me to be like, well, if young people are

603
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 1: saying that this is what their needs are, how does

604
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 1: my content serve or not serve those needs? Right? And

605
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: so like I agree, it's like it's interesting to really

606
00:35:02,600 --> 00:35:05,720
Speaker 1: put the spotlight and give the microphone to young people

607
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: for them to be like, here's what we think, here's

608
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: what we want, here's what we like, here's what we

609
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 1: don't like. So how young folks engage with media is

610
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 1: actually really important. The study points out that you've develop

611
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: a clearer sense of their personal identity through messages they

612
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: receive through culture and environment, which is increasingly dominated by media.

613
00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:29,160
Speaker 1: So this survey looked at fifteen hundred adolescents ages ten

614
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: to twenty four, and different categories of young people too,

615
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: so like young adolescents, middle adolescents, gender nonconforming adolescents, people

616
00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: of color adolescents, and LGBTQI plus adolescents. So I learned

617
00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: a couple of really interesting points from this survey. One

618
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 1: is that, perhaps unsurprisingly, social media is still rated the

619
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: most authentic media platform. Among social media platforms, young people

620
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 1: said that TikTok was the most authentic. So another interesting

621
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,840
Speaker 1: thing that surprised me is that young people are apparently

622
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: not that interested in content that glorifies drug use and

623
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: partying and drinking. So like shows like Euphoria that are

624
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: like over the top with drug use, they're not really

625
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 1: feeling that so much. And I guess that was sort

626
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,920
Speaker 1: of a theme from this survey is that I don't

627
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: know that I would say that our current media landscape

628
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 1: is really serving what young people say their needs actually are,

629
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:29,319
Speaker 1: what they actually want from media. So, for instance, very

630
00:36:29,320 --> 00:36:33,879
Speaker 1: few adolescents say that they prefer aspirational content, so they

631
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: don't really want to see content about people who are

632
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: super rich or super famous or have these like super

633
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 1: aspirational lives. But I feel like that is a lot

634
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: of the content that we are giving them. That's like, oh,

635
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 1: don't you want to see the Kardashians, Don't you want

636
00:36:48,840 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 1: to see Charlie Demilio, Don't you want to see like

637
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:54,879
Speaker 1: these rich influencers who live like fabulous lives. Young people

638
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 1: are like, nah, I'm good. I would rather see people

639
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,960
Speaker 1: whose lives kind of look like mine.

640
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, makes some sense, feels a little counterintuitive, but interesting.

641
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:11,120
Speaker 1: So the majority of young people also prefer content over

642
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:15,120
Speaker 1: IP based content, But like, that's so much of what

643
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: we have to offer right now, as like, oh, do

644
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:21,800
Speaker 1: you want to see like I don't know, some twelfth

645
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: iteration of a Marvel IP, Like that is so much

646
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:30,480
Speaker 1: like and no shade to like the EMCU the Marvel

647
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,000
Speaker 1: Cinematic Universe. But like, we are offering in terms of

648
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: media a lot of existing IP right now, and young people,

649
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: if this survey is to be believed, aren't really that

650
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: interested in that.

651
00:37:41,080 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting you bring up the MCU the

652
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: Marvel Cinematic Universe as an example for this point that

653
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:52,960
Speaker 2: the majority of young people favor original content over IP

654
00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 2: based content. Because I mean that's not just like an

655
00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 2: example you picked out of a hat, right that was

656
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 2: like the made your piece of cultural content being created

657
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:09,399
Speaker 2: during the majority of the lives of gen Zers, right

658
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:13,200
Speaker 2: like over the past like ten fifteen years, like it

659
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 2: was Marvel, the Avengers, Fear Theanos. Yeah, like no shit,

660
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: they want some other content.

661
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,279
Speaker 1: Listen, if you are a young person out there, I

662
00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 1: will I'm I'm going to quote one of my heroes

663
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: and idols on this, John Waters, fucking living legend.

664
00:38:31,000 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 3: Go.

665
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: I also like the MCU. I also enjoyed it.

666
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:40,680
Speaker 2: So John Waters quote, Oh my god, shut your mouth.

667
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: How dare he would never know? John Waters once said

668
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: get more out of life, go and see a fucked

669
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:49,759
Speaker 1: up movie. And that is something that I live by.

670
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:54,560
Speaker 1: There is so much interesting content out there. It is

671
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: a shame that, like all we like, if you were

672
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: paying attention to media and the last few years, like

673
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: if aliens came down and they were like, what media

674
00:39:03,560 --> 00:39:05,800
Speaker 1: is going on in the last ten years, a big,

675
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: a big chunk of that pie would be existing. Ip.

676
00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 1: There's so much interesting, kooky, dark, fucked up weird stuff

677
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: out there. Go out find your thing. You will, you will,

678
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: you will thank me later.

679
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 2: And stay tuned for there Are No Girls on the Internet.

680
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 2: The movie UH to be followed with the docu series

681
00:39:25,880 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 2: and the read at Home companion. Maybe you know, maybe what.

682
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,959
Speaker 1: If there's like a tangoty cinematic universe, like I guess

683
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: that kind of is if you think about it, because

684
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 1: I do have multiple podcasts, maybe they can start having

685
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 1: like little dramas with each other, like, oh, Mike really

686
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 1: doesn't get along with I don't know whoever from whatever podcast?

687
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 2: Is that something maybe, except it would have to be you,

688
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: Like nobody wants like a spinoff where two side characters

689
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: have adventures.

690
00:39:56,520 --> 00:40:02,080
Speaker 1: Yo, tell that to fucking Marvel from your lips to

691
00:40:02,200 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: Marvel's ears, my friend.

692
00:40:07,640 --> 00:40:19,879
Speaker 4: More after a quick break, let's get right back into it.

693
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: So y'all might have seen a headline or a tweet

694
00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: about this survey that says that gen z want less

695
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: sex and less romance on screen.

696
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 4: That is true.

697
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 1: The majority of adolescents in this survey, fifty one point

698
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 1: five percent, expressed a desire for more content centered around

699
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: friendships and platonic relationships. A near majority felt that romance

700
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 1: and media is overused, and a surprising thirty nine percent

701
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: want to see more a romantic and or asexual characters

702
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,399
Speaker 1: on screen. Forty seven point five percent of adolescents said

703
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: that sex is not needed for the plot of most

704
00:40:55,360 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: TV shows and movies. Young people ranked forced, unnatural or

705
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:02,839
Speaker 1: toxic romantic and sexual relationships or out of the top

706
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: ten most disliked stereotypes on TV. They also do not

707
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: care for tropes like love triangles, relationships being a necessity

708
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 1: to be happy, and male female leads always ending up together.

709
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 1: And this actually mirrors what young people are doing in

710
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,360
Speaker 1: real life. They're having less sex, and they're staying single

711
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:26,360
Speaker 1: for longer, and the reporting that they don't feel the

712
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 1: need to be in a romantic relationship to really feel fulfilled.

713
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 1: So I saw this in like headlines or on tweets

714
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 1: kind of being framed as like, oh, young people are prudes,

715
00:41:38,239 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 1: or young people are like afraid of sex, or young

716
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: people are like I don't know, if they've had their

717
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,279
Speaker 1: brains warped from the prevalence of pornography to the point

718
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: where they don't even want to see sex on screen.

719
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 1: All of that is like completely strips out the nuance

720
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 1: of what these young people are telling us about what

721
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: they want from media.

722
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: I love this part because you Bridget were like, you

723
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,520
Speaker 2: dug deeper into the data. You're like, I just feel

724
00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 2: there's a deeper story here, and you dug in and

725
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:10,279
Speaker 2: it was there.

726
00:42:13,000 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 1: Well, thank you for that. I will say Mashable did

727
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: a lot of the hard work for me by talking

728
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 1: to two of the authors of the study. But I

729
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: will say that, like when I saw the tweets that

730
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: were like young people, it was kind of framed in

731
00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: a way that was really uncharitable. And it sort of

732
00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 1: whenever you see something on Twitter that is like framed

733
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,840
Speaker 1: in a way that it's just like it g just

734
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 1: got my sobidy senses up that something more was going

735
00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: on here. I will say I will agree with you

736
00:42:39,719 --> 00:42:44,120
Speaker 1: on that. And I think it's an easy dunk on

737
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:47,439
Speaker 1: young people to make it seem like, oh, they don't

738
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 1: know what rock and roll is, they're too young to

739
00:42:49,840 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: be out there like and I say this as someone

740
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:56,240
Speaker 1: who like, when I was an adolescent, all I wanted

741
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,960
Speaker 1: to see was two characters kiss on screen. All I

742
00:42:59,080 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: was writing about, I was thinking about a lot of

743
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: my time was consumed around like wanting characters to be

744
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: involved in sexual entanglements on screen. So I was not

745
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 1: in this kind of youth. I was like, would watch

746
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:15,319
Speaker 1: a show about two friends and I'm like, what if

747
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 1: they had sex, wouldn't that be good?

748
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 2: Like, well, yeah, we've been getting that for the past

749
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: twenty years. You know.

750
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:22,839
Speaker 1: I was not the kind of young person that they

751
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:26,919
Speaker 1: are describing here. But I think it is really uncharitable

752
00:43:27,000 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 1: and really unfair to paint young people as being uncomfortable

753
00:43:32,000 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 1: with sex or prudes from what they are telling us.

754
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah right, like actual young people are also not the

755
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:39,399
Speaker 2: young people who are being portrayed here.

756
00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,600
Speaker 1: Yes, and think about this. In twenty twenty three, we

757
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 1: have less and less of what we call third places,

758
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: you know, places where people but especially young people, can

759
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 1: congregate with each other and really find and build community

760
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: and friendship. But just like everybody, young people still have

761
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,840
Speaker 1: a need for that kind of friendship and camaraderie. So

762
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 1: media then becomes the place where that need for platonic

763
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 1: relationships and friendships is being met. So if all you're

764
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:12,440
Speaker 1: giving young people is like sexual content, romantic content, romantic

765
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 1: triangles and love triangles, all of that, it really is

766
00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:19,640
Speaker 1: not serving what they have identified as a need from

767
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: the media they consume. So one of the authors of

768
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:26,360
Speaker 1: the study talk to Mashable, which explains, we're well aware

769
00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:29,280
Speaker 1: of the loneliness epidemic in the United States. Well before

770
00:44:29,320 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: COVID people have felt less connected to others. The pandemic

771
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 1: only exacerbated this, and young people today are twice as

772
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,200
Speaker 1: likely to report feeling lonely than those over sixty five.

773
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 1: Third places third to home and school or work for

774
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: young people to hang out in person are dwindling, while

775
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 1: many go online for connection. Gen z are social beings

776
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 1: that need face to face interaction, so that is one

777
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,359
Speaker 1: of the reasons why they are reporting like we are

778
00:44:55,400 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 1: interested in more explorations of platonic friendship that don't center

779
00:45:01,320 --> 00:45:05,360
Speaker 1: romantic or sexual pairings. This is really so sad to me.

780
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: The survey authors pointed to a survey response from a

781
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:12,160
Speaker 1: twelve year old about the movie The Sandlot. This person said, quote,

782
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: The Sandlot is a baseball movie.

783
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:14,719
Speaker 3: I like.

784
00:45:15,239 --> 00:45:17,239
Speaker 1: I wish I could go outside and play like they

785
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:21,280
Speaker 1: did at the time. Today It's not safe. Though simple,

786
00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:23,719
Speaker 1: his words felt like a playing it representation of what

787
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:26,680
Speaker 1: many are bar respondents seem to be hinting at that

788
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: the core essence of kids at heart and teens will

789
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,000
Speaker 1: always be the same, from camaraderie to curiosity and a

790
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: sense of adventure or even its playing outside. And it

791
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:38,279
Speaker 1: appears that somewhere along the way this may have been

792
00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:39,879
Speaker 1: forgotten in storytelling.

793
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: That is devastating. Quote a quote from authors Parole Quote

794
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:50,840
Speaker 2: Teca and Stephanie ReBs Laura.

795
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, like going back to those tweets

796
00:45:53,920 --> 00:45:58,360
Speaker 1: about young people being prudes, it just like, yeah, it's

797
00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:02,720
Speaker 1: just so not the full story of what youth today

798
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 1: are dealing with. And it is a really scary time

799
00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: to be a kid. Like I feel very grateful that

800
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:11,359
Speaker 1: I was a kid when I was a kid, because

801
00:46:11,360 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: I feel like some of the realities that youth today

802
00:46:14,040 --> 00:46:16,200
Speaker 1: are dealing with, I don't think I would be strong

803
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 1: enough to deal with it. And not only are they

804
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: dealing with it, they're dealing with it and they're continuing

805
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 1: to be creative, to connect with each other, to be

806
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:28,920
Speaker 1: roasting people like me on social media for like wearing

807
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: the wrong kind of jeans or whatever. Like they're they're

808
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 1: they're up against a lot, and they have not lost

809
00:46:34,960 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: the spark that that you know, that spark of youth.

810
00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: And yeah, young people inspire me every day, Like I

811
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: find them very inspirational, even though they are dealing with

812
00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: so much I don't know how they do it.

813
00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:49,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, this was a really interesting survey. I'm so glad

814
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: that the authors collected this because it I think it

815
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 2: does say a lot about what young people are looking for,

816
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,360
Speaker 2: what they're experiencing. And I'm so glad you dug deeper

817
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: than those headlines, because you know, the headline that like,

818
00:47:06,360 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 2: kids today aren't interested in sex, like, but it also

819
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 2: just like obscures all of this nuance of like what's

820
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 2: actually going on, not just in their lives, but in

821
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: like what our human needs are as social beings.

822
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: So, speaking of failing young people, I got to talk

823
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 1: about this woman on TikTok. So, this young woman made

824
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: a TikTok recently about getting a job out of college,

825
00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,160
Speaker 1: a job that she says that she actually likes, but

826
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,239
Speaker 1: just kind of talking about how tough it is. She

827
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 1: has to get up while it's still dark out, commute

828
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:42,280
Speaker 1: pretty long for her job. I think it's like two hours.

829
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,919
Speaker 1: Because she doesn't make enough money to live closer to work.

830
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: She goes to work, she by all accounts like enjoys

831
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: her job and coworkers, but then she has to commute

832
00:47:50,560 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: home from work. By the time she gets home it

833
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:55,760
Speaker 1: is dark. She doesn't have much energy to do anything

834
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: beyond life, just feed herself and go to bed. Right,

835
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:02,120
Speaker 1: She's like, when do you you have time for going

836
00:48:02,160 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: to the gym or seeing friends or finding a partner

837
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 1: like or having hobbies, or taking care of yourself or

838
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 1: meaningful connection. There's no time for that. And she's a

839
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: little emotional in the video, like she's crying, she's upset.

840
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 1: She does say that she has her period, which like,

841
00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: holy moly, can not relate to that. But the whole

842
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 1: thing is like a really relatable complaint, I think. But

843
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,839
Speaker 1: the internet is gonna internet, and some people had very

844
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,040
Speaker 1: cruel responses, like basically calling her like a whiny brat.

845
00:48:32,239 --> 00:48:34,600
Speaker 1: Lives of TikTok we posted the video with a caption

846
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 1: making fun of her. A lot of the responses were

847
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: just like straight up sexist because she's a young woman,

848
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,120
Speaker 1: she is wearing makeup, she has manicured nails. People are

849
00:48:45,120 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 1: saying things like, oh, she doesn't have enough time to

850
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: get her nails done. Where Jason Calacinus, who is this

851
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,960
Speaker 1: wealthy tech investor and the co host of the podcast

852
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:58,279
Speaker 1: All in which I feel like I've talked about a

853
00:48:58,360 --> 00:49:02,560
Speaker 1: few times, is like one of the most popular tech

854
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:05,600
Speaker 1: podcasts in the world. If you want to see them,

855
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:08,439
Speaker 1: just go to the Apple tech podcast charts and look

856
00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: for like number one or number two. Look way way,

857
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: way way. Wait wait wait dad, you'll find by. But

858
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,279
Speaker 1: they're always like one or two. If I would say,

859
00:49:16,320 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 1: like the closest thing to maybe like a podcast, not Nemesis,

860
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: but it is like four wealthy tech investors like drinking

861
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: bourbon and smoking cigars and like talking about how wealthy

862
00:49:30,560 --> 00:49:33,439
Speaker 1: they are and technology and YadA, YadA, YadA. So this

863
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: person who is like a wealthy tech dude tweeted, oh

864
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,640
Speaker 1: princess violent emoji. I'm sorry you had to commute and

865
00:49:41,680 --> 00:49:44,880
Speaker 1: work and have a job and everything. It's like so extra,

866
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:48,560
Speaker 1: which like it's just a rude tweet. I will say,

867
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: what's really funny is that, as I said, Jason ISAs

868
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: like wealthy tech investor. And Twitter added a community note

869
00:49:56,120 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: to that tweet, crapping on that young woman, just reminding

870
00:50:00,440 --> 00:50:02,719
Speaker 1: everybody that, hey, just so you know, Jason has not

871
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,040
Speaker 1: worked a nine to five job since nineteen ninety, so,

872
00:50:05,160 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: like if he's gonna complain, this is context that y'all

873
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 1: should know, which I agree.

874
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 2: That's a funny, rude community note.

875
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,520
Speaker 1: I know, I love I'm here for a salty community note.

876
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: So a tech journalist that I love, Morgan Sung, made

877
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 1: a really insightful TikTok post about how I don't know

878
00:50:23,400 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: of like idealizing grind and corporate life. This makes it

879
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 1: really difficult to have empathy for other people, especially younger people,

880
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:35,759
Speaker 1: and it's really kind of keeping us away from meaningful

881
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:40,040
Speaker 1: generational solidarity. Right, Like there's this attitude of like I

882
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,120
Speaker 1: did it, you should have to do it too, like

883
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 1: suck it up. If I could do it, you could

884
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: do it. And I think, especially like this woman is

885
00:50:47,600 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: like a young woman if you're an entry level person,

886
00:50:50,560 --> 00:50:53,840
Speaker 1: like new to the workforce, historically, these are not folks

887
00:50:53,840 --> 00:50:57,040
Speaker 1: who have a lot of power in the workforce. So

888
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 1: like it's people like Jason who have been working successfully

889
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,520
Speaker 1: for longer than this young woman have been alive, like

890
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: punching down and crapping on her. But here's the thing,

891
00:51:09,560 --> 00:51:12,839
Speaker 1: she is one hundred percent correct. Like I remember this

892
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:17,320
Speaker 1: absolutely visceral reaction I had when I had my first

893
00:51:17,360 --> 00:51:20,800
Speaker 1: like grown up job, I was living in Brooklyn, was

894
00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:23,799
Speaker 1: working in Manhattan, and I had to get up while

895
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: it was still dark outside to commute to my job.

896
00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 1: And I didn't live in like cool, hipster Brooklyn. I

897
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:34,239
Speaker 1: lived in like Brooklyn, Brooklyn, like deep into Brooklyn, like

898
00:51:34,600 --> 00:51:37,800
Speaker 1: almost Queen. So my commute was pretty hellish. I would

899
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:39,839
Speaker 1: leave for work when it was dark out, I would

900
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,799
Speaker 1: get back to work when it was dark out, and

901
00:51:41,960 --> 00:51:46,280
Speaker 1: I basically was like just making enough money to exist

902
00:51:46,520 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 1: to live. It was certainly not a like thriving, healthy life.

903
00:51:51,920 --> 00:51:53,680
Speaker 1: And I think I did have a moment where I

904
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 1: was like, oh, wait, like this is adult life, this

905
00:51:56,560 --> 00:52:00,399
Speaker 1: actually really sucks. I actually don't like this. And you know,

906
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 1: I'm really have a lot of empathy for this young

907
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:10,399
Speaker 1: woman in this experience, because she's not wrong. And more

908
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 1: and more workers are waking up to the fact that

909
00:52:13,280 --> 00:52:15,839
Speaker 1: killing yourself at work just to make money that you

910
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 1: then don't get to really s abandon on anything other

911
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 1: than sleep and food to fuel yourself for more work

912
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: is not a great dynamic. And it's not a dynamic

913
00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 1: that feels good. And yes, I get that this is

914
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: like a white girl who probably went to college, and

915
00:52:30,600 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: it seems like, oh that you don't get to complain.

916
00:52:33,000 --> 00:52:35,359
Speaker 1: But you know, a lot of young people, I think

917
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,719
Speaker 1: we're sold a bunk bill of goods that if you

918
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: go to college and work hard, you can make this

919
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:42,960
Speaker 1: good life for yourself. Finding out that that good life

920
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 1: is just endless work and toil and also commuting on

921
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: top of it is kind of a bus like, She's

922
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:53,080
Speaker 1: not wrong, the way Americans work is broken. In fact,

923
00:52:53,160 --> 00:52:55,840
Speaker 1: a new study from the job search site Indeed found

924
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:58,919
Speaker 1: that two thirds of UK employees would take a pay

925
00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:01,879
Speaker 1: cut for more day work week instead of a five

926
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,839
Speaker 1: day work week. So I don't think that this young

927
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,319
Speaker 1: woman is saying anything but it's not correct. I think

928
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 1: that more and more workers are seeing this. You know,

929
00:53:11,480 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: adult wage earning life in the United States is a

930
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:19,640
Speaker 1: grind by design, right, Things like long commutes, lack of childcare,

931
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,120
Speaker 1: having your health care attached to your employment, the high

932
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,799
Speaker 1: cost of housing all add to it. And if you

933
00:53:24,880 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: have kids or are a caregiver for a family member

934
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 1: or other stuff going on on top of it, it's

935
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: even worse. So I was really disappointed to see people

936
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 1: acting like this woman was like an entitled brat for

937
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:41,319
Speaker 1: pointing that reality out Like it makes me wonder if

938
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:43,560
Speaker 1: one of the reasons why it's so hard to expect

939
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:47,200
Speaker 1: better is because people will crap on anyone who points

940
00:53:47,200 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 1: out like, hey, y'all, the status quo is actually not working.

941
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:53,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're onto something there. I think there

942
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:57,840
Speaker 2: are a lot of people who have been grinding away

943
00:53:58,400 --> 00:54:01,960
Speaker 2: jobs that don't make them feel fulfilled for so long

944
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 2: that they feel defensive when anybody suggests like, maybe that's

945
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:09,879
Speaker 2: not the best way to live.

946
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:12,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that's part of it. I think that,

947
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,880
Speaker 1: like people are, it's so easy to get so entrenched

948
00:54:17,080 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 1: in this corporate mindset that says that like this is

949
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: this is like the only way to live that somebody

950
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 1: just being like, oh, actually this is really hard elicits

951
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 1: sneers and jokes and you know, crapping on her rather

952
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:37,120
Speaker 1: than empathy and rather than being like, yeah, we all

953
00:54:37,120 --> 00:54:39,360
Speaker 1: deserve better. It shouldn't have to be this way. You

954
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 1: should not have to You were not put on this

955
00:54:41,640 --> 00:54:45,439
Speaker 1: earth just to do wage earning labor for someone else.

956
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 1: You should be able to have a life. You should

957
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:50,840
Speaker 1: be able to have harmony in your life. You should

958
00:54:50,880 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 1: be able to work and still have time to take

959
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: care of yourself and enjoy life like that is the

960
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:57,160
Speaker 1: point of being on this earth.

961
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:00,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also you know her completely, it was not

962
00:55:00,560 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 2: so much about the work itself but about the commute,

963
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 2: and I feel that was kind of glossed over. But

964
00:55:07,640 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 2: sh she says she's commuting two hours in each direction.

965
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 2: That's like like four hours out of her day. That's

966
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: like half a day of work. No wonder she's miserable.

967
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 2: That would make anyone miserable. I know people like older

968
00:55:21,040 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 2: than her that have good jobs with like salary and

969
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 2: benefits and you know, nominal flexibility, who for whatever reason

970
00:55:28,680 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 2: have made the decision to commute for like close to

971
00:55:31,280 --> 00:55:34,640
Speaker 2: two hours and they're also miserable, right, Like that that's

972
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,080
Speaker 2: just not a life mode that makes sense. Like this

973
00:55:38,200 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 2: is just my take, but like nobody should could be

974
00:55:40,120 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: commuting two hours. Like if you're doing that, you're doing

975
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 2: it wrong and you need to be doing something else immediately.

976
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it is such a privilege for me

977
00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:52,240
Speaker 1: to like not have to commute. I work mostly remotely,

978
00:55:52,239 --> 00:55:55,480
Speaker 1: and I have since before COVID in times where I

979
00:55:55,560 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: was commuting, it just didn't work for me, Like I

980
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 1: was a miss Sera and it wasn't even like the

981
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 1: job made me miserable. I hated having to budget in

982
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: an extra hour on both ways, an extra two hours

983
00:56:10,320 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 1: in the like eight hours of my day that is

984
00:56:12,920 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: not spent sleeping or at work went to commuting. When

985
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,879
Speaker 1: I would get to work, I'm already in a bad

986
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 1: mood because like, you're on the fucking subway, You're late,

987
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:24,520
Speaker 1: it smells, people are screaming, Like you've got to like

988
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: be wearing clothes you don't want to wear, having conversations

989
00:56:27,200 --> 00:56:29,719
Speaker 1: you don't want to have, like it just like and

990
00:56:29,760 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 1: then I would always like, oh my god, Like even

991
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:34,160
Speaker 1: just thinking about it is it's almost like takes me

992
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: back to that headspace. But all of that is to

993
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:40,359
Speaker 1: say my I for for a very long time, when

994
00:56:40,360 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: I was working in offices, I thought I was like

995
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,759
Speaker 1: a screw up employee. I thought I was like just

996
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:49,120
Speaker 1: a fuck up who like couldn't work properly, and like

997
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: that was something I really internalized. Come to find out,

998
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:54,120
Speaker 1: I just hated commuting and I hated working in an office.

999
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: Like when I was working with a little bit more

1000
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,840
Speaker 1: flexibility padded into my schedule, I was like, oh, I

1001
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 1: actually enjoy producing. I actually enjoy doing a lot of

1002
00:57:02,239 --> 00:57:05,600
Speaker 1: this work. The office commute vibe just did not work

1003
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 1: for me. I used to regularly, Oh my god, I

1004
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 1: hope my old MSNBC bosson to hear this. But Pharah,

1005
00:57:11,680 --> 00:57:13,840
Speaker 1: if you're listening, you know I was a shitting employee,

1006
00:57:13,880 --> 00:57:16,400
Speaker 1: so like, whatever, deal with it. I would regularly like

1007
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: leave the office, go outside and just like walk around

1008
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:24,400
Speaker 1: the block several times. Sometimes I would scream and then

1009
00:57:24,440 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: just like come back in. It was the fucking worst,

1010
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: And it's such a i'm i'm it is such a

1011
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: privilege for me to be in a different place now

1012
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: where my work life doesn't look like that. But just

1013
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: because I did that, I don't want people coming up

1014
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 1: behind me to have to needlessly suffer through that. If

1015
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 1: you love being in the office and you love commuting

1016
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:46,960
Speaker 1: and it's working for you, that is great. But if

1017
00:57:47,000 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 1: you feel like this young lady did, which is definitely

1018
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 1: how I felt when I was her age, you were

1019
00:57:51,160 --> 00:57:54,400
Speaker 1: not crazy. It is normal to feel that way. It

1020
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,600
Speaker 1: is not a sustainable system to spend two hours each

1021
00:57:57,640 --> 00:58:01,560
Speaker 1: way commuting. You should be able to have time for yourself,

1022
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 1: time to take care of yourself, time to have a

1023
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 1: light that is not work or sleep. And I guess

1024
00:58:07,840 --> 00:58:10,720
Speaker 1: I'll end it there, Mike, thank you so much.

1025
00:58:10,600 --> 00:58:11,120
Speaker 4: For being here.

1026
00:58:11,760 --> 00:58:13,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me. It was good talking with you.

1027
00:58:14,320 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 2: This was our least musky episode in like quite a while.

1028
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: When we were.

1029
00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: Putting together the outline, you were like, you know who's

1030
00:58:22,920 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 1: not in this outline, Elon Musk, If you want some musk,

1031
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:28,240
Speaker 1: I can give you somebody know exactly what he's been

1032
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:29,200
Speaker 1: up to. But it sounds like.

1033
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 2: You're we're good, We're good. Yeah, we can just let

1034
00:58:32,400 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 2: it go for a week.

1035
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:36,440
Speaker 1: Elon Musk will give you the week off, but we'll

1036
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: see you next week.

1037
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 2: I'm sure we'll be doing something.

1038
00:58:39,520 --> 00:58:42,680
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening, and as always, for add

1039
00:58:42,720 --> 00:58:45,720
Speaker 1: three bonus content, you can check out our Patreon. The

1040
00:58:45,880 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: last Patreon episode that we did was like me on

1041
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,680
Speaker 1: a tear about something happening. So for folks who listened

1042
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: and reached out, thank you. Uh but if you want

1043
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 1: to know more, check out the Patreon and we will

1044
00:58:58,000 --> 00:59:05,400
Speaker 1: see you next week. If you're looking for ways to

1045
00:59:05,440 --> 00:59:08,040
Speaker 1: support the show, check out our March store at tegoty

1046
00:59:08,080 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 1: dot com slash store. Got a story about an interesting

1047
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: thing in tech, or just want to say hi, You

1048
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: can reach us at Hello at tegody dot com. You

1049
00:59:16,080 --> 00:59:19,200
Speaker 1: can also find transcripts for today's episode at tengody dot com.

1050
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 1: There Are No Girls on the Internet was created by

1051
00:59:21,000 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 1: me Bridget Tood. It's a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed

1052
00:59:24,000 --> 00:59:28,480
Speaker 1: Creative edited by Joey pat Jonathan Strickland is our executive producer.

1053
00:59:28,800 --> 00:59:32,040
Speaker 1: Tari Harrison is our producer and sound engineer. Michael Almado

1054
00:59:32,120 --> 00:59:35,120
Speaker 1: is our contributing producer. I'm your host, Bridget Todd. If

1055
00:59:35,120 --> 00:59:36,840
Speaker 1: you want to help us grow, rate and review us

1056
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:40,480
Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out

1057
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,760
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.