Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine, how are you doing. I'm great, You're back home.
Speaker 1: What's new in your world? We taped our special in Nashville. Well,
Speaker 1: I say our special because Joe directed it for me,
Speaker 1: which was such a delight. It was so nice to
Speaker 1: have a man not only be everything he is in
Speaker 1: my life, but to be able to go into something
Speaker 1: creative like shooting my next stand up special and not
Speaker 1: have to deal with any of the minutia that I
Speaker 1: am not interested in, which is camera angles, jib shots,
Speaker 1: gimbal shots. They are all sorts of cameras that I've
Speaker 1: never fucking heard of, and I don't want to know
Speaker 1: anything more about them. Curtains and drapery and lighting and
Speaker 1: la la la la. Joe did everything for me. He
Speaker 1: arranged everything. He just asked me to pick out certain
Speaker 1: colors and this and that, and then went in and
Speaker 1: got on stage at like nine in the morning at
Speaker 1: the theater with my producers Michelle and Shannon, who are
Speaker 1: an incredible producing team, and I he goes, come in
Speaker 1: at four thirty, honey, do whatever you need to do
Speaker 1: to get in the zone and just come in and
Speaker 1: four thirty and I was the most most experience I've
Speaker 1: ever had, And I am so grateful to have not
Speaker 1: only a partner, but somebody who has in this world
Speaker 1: that I operate in shorthand Yeah, and he's cool and
Speaker 1: it has style, like you know, so I don't have
Speaker 1: to think about any of that. And I'm just it
Speaker 1: was just a delight. So we're home now, we've been
Speaker 1: on the road for three weeks and we're home. So
Speaker 1: it's time for me to de bloat, because this travel
Speaker 1: section really got after me drinking, eating, drinking, eating, traveling constipation.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, what is that? Why do you when
Speaker 1: you travel you don't go to the bathroom. I don't
Speaker 1: like that at all. And then I tried this new product,
Speaker 1: this green drink, which I was like, great because it
Speaker 1: makes you go to the bathroom a lot, but then
Speaker 1: you're constipated for two days after so I think it
Speaker 1: cleans you out so much that you've got nothing left
Speaker 1: to give for two days. And then, uh, so our
Speaker 1: plane ride home was just long, long, long, because I
Speaker 1: just wanted to detox. You know, I'm feeling already so
Speaker 1: much better being home good, and to make your own
Speaker 1: choices and like eat what you want to eat that
Speaker 1: makes you feel good. My therapist and I even talking
Speaker 1: a lot about that, like mindfulness and intuitive eating, eating
Speaker 1: what you know in a half an hour is gonna
Speaker 1: make your body feel good and just like little swaps, yes, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: because it's nice and like eating clean makes you such
Speaker 1: a difference in your mental clarity, and like for me,
Speaker 1: that is everything because I hate feeling foggy and on
Speaker 1: the road. Inevitably I start to drink, I start to
Speaker 1: eat badly. You know, you make poor decisions when you're hungover.
Speaker 1: You think you're gonna be able to stick to your
Speaker 1: diet even when you drink, but it's not like that.
Speaker 1: You wake up, you have a bad night of sleep,
Speaker 1: then you need more food for fuel comfort, and then
Speaker 1: you go and make bad decisions. And when I eat clean,
Speaker 1: I'm just I have higher energy levels. Yeah, absolutely, and
Speaker 1: you're just like feel better, like physically, you don't get that,
Speaker 1: like you said, tons of bloating. You don't get that
Speaker 1: nauseous feeling if you're you know, having a potato chip
Speaker 1: or whatever. Yeah. Yeah, I had a bag of Cheetos
Speaker 1: on the road. Was my first bag of Cheetos probably
Speaker 1: and like two years and yeah, and I started for
Speaker 1: three days, so I'm not eating studios again. It's so disgusting.
Speaker 1: I did get to see my nephew though. We picked
Speaker 1: him up. He was in Detroit. I had a show
Speaker 1: an Ontario Windsor. So we picked him up in Detroit
Speaker 1: and drove across the bridge to Canada with him, trying
Speaker 1: to deprogram him from his ultra conservative views. Not ultra
Speaker 1: but too conservative for my liking. His mother has been
Speaker 1: programming him for a long time. Indoctrinating him is how
Speaker 1: I like to frame it. Um. She's a Russian nationalist.
Speaker 1: So we had to, you know, say, and we did.
Speaker 1: All of us had a really good time kind of
Speaker 1: debating back and forth to do with him about what
Speaker 1: he thinks is the real state of things. Yeah, did
Speaker 1: you hear feel some movement on him? Because he's nineteen.
Speaker 1: My security guy Buddha was there and he's like, you know, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I remember when I was in nineteen. I believe that
Speaker 1: ship too, you know, like he he said things like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't know if I don't believe racism
Speaker 1: is as big of a problem as people make it
Speaker 1: out to be. And it's likely if you're white, you're
Speaker 1: you wouldn't know, how would you know, you're white and
Speaker 1: your nineteen and your whole life is set up for success. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's in college. He's interning, and I mean thankfully he's
Speaker 1: in college because he's going to be around other people
Speaker 1: that will hopefully open his eyes and mined up to things.
Speaker 1: But he's still upset that he didn't get into, you know,
Speaker 1: the college he wanted to get into. And you know,
Speaker 1: he thinks that somebody else took his spot that was
Speaker 1: maybe less qualified, and we had to explain to him
Speaker 1: why that's not even an issue. So shut the suck up.
Speaker 1: If he didn't get a four point oh, then you know, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's not someone else's fault. Martha came to my show. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Martha Stork came to my show in God, it's so
Speaker 1: hard to remember where I just want Yes, yes, she
Speaker 1: and her crew came. That was fun, and Joe came
Speaker 1: on stage with us. So it was good to see
Speaker 1: Martha out and about maybe she's eighty years old, she's
Speaker 1: like still very beautiful. Yes, yes, radiant, that's what I said.
Speaker 1: I said, luminous. She really Joe's because we looked it
Speaker 1: up at lunch after Joe met her outside Joe's like,
Speaker 1: how old is that woman? I mean, she seems young
Speaker 1: and I was like, yeah, I know, I think she's
Speaker 1: probably late seventies. And then I looked it up and
Speaker 1: she's eighty. Yeah. People are getting older. People are getting
Speaker 1: older and happening. One of my great grandmother said, you
Speaker 1: never truly mature until you hit eighty really, so maybe
Speaker 1: she's mature. Now, Well, what about who people who don't
Speaker 1: hit eighties? I mean, what's their story. I definitely don't
Speaker 1: feel fully mature, and I don't know when that's going
Speaker 1: to hit me because I'm sucking forty seven, so I
Speaker 1: would like that to hit sooner than later. Although it
Speaker 1: doesn't sound super fun to be mature, like that just
Speaker 1: sounds I feel like I'm already less fun than I
Speaker 1: used to be, Like I want to go to bed
Speaker 1: at nine thirty. Last night, Joe and I were up
Speaker 1: and and he came home at like six thirty, and
Speaker 1: I had already taken my edible with dinner, so I
Speaker 1: was fading out around. I was already like tired at
Speaker 1: six thirty, but I just came back from the East Coast,
Speaker 1: so I was kind of I used that excuse when
Speaker 1: it's suits me that I was on East Coast time
Speaker 1: only when it suits me, and I'm like, well, it's
Speaker 1: nine thirty and I usually like to go to bed
Speaker 1: around ten thirty, you know. But I was fading out
Speaker 1: and he's like, do you want to go out and
Speaker 1: get a juice somewhere? And I just looked at him like, no,
Speaker 1: I don't leave the house. I'm not I don't want
Speaker 1: to go anywhere. I fell asleep on the sofa. We
Speaker 1: watched one episode of the Staircase to get him up
Speaker 1: to speed, the fictionalized the sc scripted version, not fictionalized,
Speaker 1: because they actually say because I was toggling back and
Speaker 1: forth between The Staircase the HBO Max One and then
Speaker 1: going to Netflix to see like, oh, is that girlfriend
Speaker 1: of his the documentarian in the Staircase documentary? But then
Speaker 1: I was like, no, idiot, you're high shoot. No documentarian
Speaker 1: puts themselves in the documentary, especially when they're sucking the
Speaker 1: person that there is starring in the documentary. So that
Speaker 1: didn't make any sense. But that show is so disturbing
Speaker 1: and that guy is so guilty, it's just so ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And then the sexy and it's like that sex scene
Speaker 1: of him eating her ass in the kitchen. I heard
Speaker 1: about this, I haven't seen. I've seen the documentary, but
Speaker 1: I haven't seen. Well, it's obviously not in the documentary,
Speaker 1: but it's because that they took a little license with
Speaker 1: that eating her ass in the kitchen, and it's like,
Speaker 1: first of all, who's ready to get their asset in
Speaker 1: the middle afternoon? I mean, you need to prep for that.
Speaker 1: And then there was another really gross sex scene between
Speaker 1: Tony Glenn and Colin Firth. I mean, Colin Firth really
Speaker 1: pulls it off because he plays a very He is disturbing,
Speaker 1: you know, and creepy and like, I mean he's so good, yeah,
Speaker 1: so good. Yeah, Yeah, he's a really yeah, he's a
Speaker 1: really good actor. Because even when they've interview him behind
Speaker 1: the scenes for the staircase, you're like, oh, you're actually
Speaker 1: sexy in real life. You've made yourself kind of unsexy,
Speaker 1: not kind of. But what I still don't understand is
Speaker 1: if my father, like if my mother was found at
Speaker 1: the bottom of the stairwell by my father, even if
Speaker 1: it was my birth father, I would not be on
Speaker 1: his side. There is no chance that I would believe
Speaker 1: any of that horseship. So the fact that four of
Speaker 1: his children are so fucked up that they believe that
Speaker 1: their father is innocent when everything is pointing to the
Speaker 1: fact that he is not makes me I rate big
Speaker 1: spoiler alert. I don't even know if I should say
Speaker 1: this to you, but what happened in his past? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, especially after you find that out, it's like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, well who cares those Either you saw
Speaker 1: the show where you didn't and I want to say,
Speaker 1: there's a scene in the movie or one of the
Speaker 1: things where they say, oh, you there is no such
Speaker 1: thing as a serial staircase killer, right, because I'm like,
Speaker 1: there is now, this is one, like, it's not to accidents,
Speaker 1: it's just not right. And then the other ex wife
Speaker 1: from the past, he's all, you know, out of sorts.
Speaker 1: I'm just like, she's a hot mess too and has
Speaker 1: been brainwashed or brain injured. You know. Yeah, good points.
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's been keeping us busy for a while.
Speaker 1: But I think we're going to move on to Atlanta
Speaker 1: now because I'm behind in Atlanta and I want to
Speaker 1: catch up with because I hear that's a really good show. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We watched the first couple of seasons of that and
Speaker 1: really enjoyed it, but then it's taken kind of so
Speaker 1: long for new season's to come out that we've sort
Speaker 1: of falling off the wagon with that. We've gotta jump
Speaker 1: back on that train. Well before we get to all
Speaker 1: the fun stuff, We'll take a quick break. Okay, sounds good,
Speaker 1: We'll be right back. Oh. Our guest today is a
Speaker 1: an advice columnist himself. You probably know him from his
Speaker 1: advocacy work on the It Gets Better campaign. He is
Speaker 1: a co writer of the upcoming film called Spoiler Alert,
Speaker 1: and he is the host of Savage Love Cast, which
Speaker 1: is in its season. Please welcome Dan Savage. Hi, Dan, Hey, Chelsea. Hi,
Speaker 1: It's nice to see you again. The last time we
Speaker 1: saw each other was at a dinner party that we
Speaker 1: were filming for my Netflix show Right, yeah, your house.
Speaker 1: I made Jennifer Garner sad. That's what I remember about
Speaker 1: that dinner. Jennifer Garner. What was sad? Yeah, because she
Speaker 1: was talking about Republicans and ma reaching them, and I
Speaker 1: kind of felt that there was no reaching them. And
Speaker 1: I think I've been proven right over the last few
Speaker 1: years there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot about that conversation.
Speaker 1: Of course, we were talking about that then it's funny
Speaker 1: that the conversation probably would be exactly the same at
Speaker 1: this point. Yeah, we are trapped, I know, terrible times
Speaker 1: we live in right, Yes, yes, very terrible. Well, I'm
Speaker 1: very excited to have you on today because Dan Savage,
Speaker 1: for those of you who are not familiar with him,
Speaker 1: has been the premier advice giver on his podcast, which
Speaker 1: is called Savage Love Cast, which is in its seventeen season.
Speaker 1: So we have somebody who really really has the skill
Speaker 1: set to answer questions not unlike yours, truly, I'm sorry,
Speaker 1: not like yours truly, definitely unlike yours truly. You know,
Speaker 1: when you look at advice in the dictionary, all it
Speaker 1: says is opinion about what kutter should be done. The
Speaker 1: only qualification you need to give advice is somebody asked
Speaker 1: you for it. That's exactly right. And you know what
Speaker 1: my just vocation for even doing a podcast like this, Dan,
Speaker 1: is that I was giving unsolicited advice to people for
Speaker 1: so many years that I figure, why not have people
Speaker 1: actually ask me questions so that it is warranted. Solicited
Speaker 1: advice is better than unsolicited advice, just like solicited dick
Speaker 1: picks are better than unsolicited thank you for saying that,
Speaker 1: so I didn't have to now tell me do people
Speaker 1: assume now? Do people come up to you whenever they
Speaker 1: see you, recognize you, expecting to asking for advice in
Speaker 1: real life all the time. Yeah, It's happened in restaurants.
Speaker 1: That's happened in airports. It's happened at urinals where the
Speaker 1: person standing next to me recognizes me. That's my favorite
Speaker 1: place for a fan interaction. Is it right next to
Speaker 1: a urinal? Yeah? Yeah, mine too. What's really weird is
Speaker 1: because not as many people are familiar with my face,
Speaker 1: but people have been listening for a long time, and
Speaker 1: so it can startle someone to hear my voice come
Speaker 1: out of a person as opposed to their headphones or earbuds,
Speaker 1: and so that, you know, I'll be on the phone
Speaker 1: with somebody and somebody in line our bucks will turn
Speaker 1: around because they're shocked to hear me standing behind them talking.
Speaker 1: That's nice to them for people to recognize your voice,
Speaker 1: isn't it. Yeah? Yeah, it is nice. I like it.
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's kind of nice to not be
Speaker 1: recognized on site all the time because I'm not on
Speaker 1: television a lot, but it's still nice. To know that
Speaker 1: there are lots of people out there listening to my podcast,
Speaker 1: or after all these years exactly exactly after seventeen years,
Speaker 1: I mean, you were like the one of the original
Speaker 1: people to have a podcast. Yeah, and I've been doing
Speaker 1: the podcast several cost for seventeen years and writing my
Speaker 1: dumb sex advice column savage Love that the podcast grew
Speaker 1: out of for thirty years. Holy sh it. Really Yeah,
Speaker 1: since I have been at this a while. Oh my god,
Speaker 1: So what every week you have to turn something in
Speaker 1: on what day? What day is your delivery date? Friday?
Speaker 1: From the craziest part about writing a sex advice column
Speaker 1: for so long as I am now giving sex advice
Speaker 1: to the children of people I gave sex advice to
Speaker 1: thirty years ago before their children were born. So adults
Speaker 1: who did and exist whose parents I gave sex advice
Speaker 1: to are now writing for sex advice And it kind
Speaker 1: of blows my mind. That's funny. So how do you
Speaker 1: justify giving advice after all this time? Like, how do
Speaker 1: you keep your information flowing so that you know what's
Speaker 1: going on in the world, and and and kind of
Speaker 1: like what what information do you consume, whether it be
Speaker 1: books or you know media, like, how do you stay
Speaker 1: fresh so that you are actually giving the most sound advice?
Speaker 1: You know, to zoom out for a second. And this
Speaker 1: is me to get a little airy fairy about my
Speaker 1: format and genre. The the advice column, the original one
Speaker 1: in print was advice columns really pioneered what then blogs
Speaker 1: and the Internet made standard for writers in an advice column,
Speaker 1: you know, going back a hundred years, going back to
Speaker 1: a lander's column. For decades that I grew up reading,
Speaker 1: readers wrote back, and the columnists would print letters from
Speaker 1: people who disagreed with the columnists and engage in a debate.
Speaker 1: That then didn't become kind of standard for journalists and
Speaker 1: writers until the Internet came along. It used to be
Speaker 1: if you were a writer in a newspaper, there might
Speaker 1: be a letter to the editor about you, but you
Speaker 1: didn't respond to it. You didn't engage with that critic.
Speaker 1: But in an advice column, you engage with your critics
Speaker 1: all the time. And so the people I learned most
Speaker 1: from the people who keep me up to date and
Speaker 1: current are my readers and my listeners who are always
Speaker 1: getting in my face about whatever it is I may
Speaker 1: have said about what they agreed with what they didn't
Speaker 1: agree with, and there's always been this back and forth.
Speaker 1: You know. When I started Savage Love, I called it
Speaker 1: a conversation I'm having in a bar with my friends
Speaker 1: about our sex lives when we're drunk. And originally the
Speaker 1: column was a joke. You know. It was a gay
Speaker 1: guy giving straight people sex advice thirty years ago. And
Speaker 1: I was going to treat straight people at the same
Speaker 1: contempt that straight advice calumnists like A Landers had always
Speaker 1: treated gay people with. UH. And I was going to
Speaker 1: do it for six months or a year. But then
Speaker 1: straight people who had never been treated with that particular
Speaker 1: kind of contempt before I really liked it. I thought
Speaker 1: it was really funny as opposed to really traumatizing UH,
Speaker 1: and started sending me real questions. So it kind of
Speaker 1: accidentally became a real advice column in a real advice podcast.
Speaker 1: And how would you rate yourself in applying your own
Speaker 1: advice to your own life? Well, you know, more than once, UH,
Speaker 1: my husband has turned to me and quoted me back
Speaker 1: to me when I haven't been living up to my
Speaker 1: own standards around being honest or using my words, or
Speaker 1: being direct or being g g G or my most
Speaker 1: I think one of the pieces of vice I'm proudest
Speaker 1: to fuck first, which is, you know, before you go
Speaker 1: out to dinner fun, don't wait till you get home
Speaker 1: from dinner, because you're gonna be too fold to fuck. Originally,
Speaker 1: this is advice I came up with for Valentine's Day
Speaker 1: because on Debruary fifteenth, I would get all these letters
Speaker 1: fro people who didn't get funed on Valentine's Day. We
Speaker 1: were worried about the date of their relationships, and I
Speaker 1: would write them back and say, so, what happened on
Speaker 1: Valentine's Day? And they went out to dinner and they
Speaker 1: had wine and Coco Van and chocolate mouse and more wine,
Speaker 1: and no one wants to get fucked with a gut
Speaker 1: full of Coco Van and chocolate mouse. Funk first, then
Speaker 1: go to dinner. And so when I, you know, my
Speaker 1: husband or my boyfriend's horny and they want to funk,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, oh, let's do it later, they're like,
Speaker 1: fuck first, Who said them? Who said the first? You did?
Speaker 1: Let's fun? Now? Well, the first of all, that's great advice.
Speaker 1: Everyone should suck first anyway, even whether you're talking about
Speaker 1: eating or not. I feel like getting fucking out of
Speaker 1: the way right away with a new potential love interest
Speaker 1: will save everybody a lot of time because you have
Speaker 1: to find out what parts are working and what's gonna
Speaker 1: because some people are into some kinky ship and some
Speaker 1: people are not into some kinky ship. So it's good
Speaker 1: to find out what is happening in that arena before
Speaker 1: you even go to dinner, because otherwise that's just a
Speaker 1: waste of a meal. In my opinion, that's how gay
Speaker 1: men do it. Yeah, well, maybe I am a gay man.
Speaker 1: I I the other night, Joe, my boyfriend, and I
Speaker 1: were ordering room service and I knew. I said we
Speaker 1: should suck first, because once we eat this, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna want to suck. And I we had thirty minutes
Speaker 1: before room service came, and I was like, let's get
Speaker 1: this going. And I knew because I was like, we're
Speaker 1: in a hotel room. It's going to happen at some point,
Speaker 1: so let me get this out of the way. It
Speaker 1: was more of a formality. I don't make it sound
Speaker 1: very mantic because it quite frankly, it wasn't. I was
Speaker 1: just making sure that I would be able to relax
Speaker 1: after I my cheeseburger, which is really important. Also, you know,
Speaker 1: primarily I give this advice to people about holy days
Speaker 1: of fucking obligation, like a day when you gotta get
Speaker 1: fucked or you're going to be sad or think something's
Speaker 1: wrong your wedding day. First, don't wait till after the reception.
Speaker 1: Stand at the altar with come writing down your legs.
Speaker 1: That's how you do it. That's good advice too, because
Speaker 1: who knows what kind of shape you're going to be
Speaker 1: in at the end of your wedding. You're getting exhausted
Speaker 1: and ship face probably most often, well not everybody, but
Speaker 1: a lot of people do get shipped faced. And I
Speaker 1: get those letters I didn't you know, we got married
Speaker 1: and we didn't have sex on our wedding day, so sad, Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: you should have had sex on your wedding day. That
Speaker 1: morning before the wedding. Katherine, what's your view on being
Speaker 1: too full to fuck? I totally agree. I mean you can. Actually,
Speaker 1: while you were saying funk first, I was like looking
Speaker 1: over here at my engineer who I am also married to,
Speaker 1: and she's like, yeah, absolutely, you have to funk before
Speaker 1: you go to dinner. But to the wedding day. Think
Speaker 1: my brother and his wife fell asleep counting money on
Speaker 1: their wedding day and never had sex. That's pretty hot there,
Speaker 1: I know that. Great, that's like a good reason the
Speaker 1: second best thing. Yes, but no, totally agree. First, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a good rule of thumb to
Speaker 1: live by, especially if you're an adult. If you're a
Speaker 1: young adult and you're experimenting with sex for the first time,
Speaker 1: don't listen to what I'm saying. But if you're over
Speaker 1: thirty and you've had sex with a lot of people,
Speaker 1: just I would say, just get it out of the
Speaker 1: way as soon as possible, for more reasons than one.
Speaker 1: And then you know, if you funk before you go
Speaker 1: out and then you catch a group and you don't
Speaker 1: want to suck again, yeah, hot, there you go, and
Speaker 1: then that's hot, and then you're over. Yes, then you're
Speaker 1: over delivering and you don't feel this sense of tension
Speaker 1: or you know, because oh my god, we have to
Speaker 1: funk when we got home. You already sucked and so
Speaker 1: you won't be tense about it. And then if you
Speaker 1: want to funk when you get home, awesome. Let me
Speaker 1: ask you another question. Do you feel like since you
Speaker 1: are such a good advice giver and you're known for that, well,
Speaker 1: it's your career. Do you feel like when you take
Speaker 1: you your personal life into account that it matches and
Speaker 1: is commensurate to the advice that you dole out like
Speaker 1: you have imposter syndrome? Absolutely, Advice is easy to give
Speaker 1: and hard to follow. I get in trouble sometimes because
Speaker 1: I'm slow to tell people to break up or get
Speaker 1: a divorce that I'm happy to get under the hood
Speaker 1: and tinker. And I think you've been with my husband
Speaker 1: for thirty years as well, and I think that being
Speaker 1: in such a long, long, long as term relationship, there
Speaker 1: definitely been times when I thought I should leave, we
Speaker 1: should get a divorce, and then I didn't, in part
Speaker 1: because it's such a hassle to break up, to separate everything,
Speaker 1: to get a divorce, and so I hesitated. And then
Speaker 1: you know, when we got to the other side of
Speaker 1: the crisis and we figured it out or worked it out,
Speaker 1: I was glad that we hadn't. But there's definitely been
Speaker 1: a few times in my relationship where I was like
Speaker 1: Dan Savage would tell you, dance Savage right now, to
Speaker 1: get a divorce, and I know, because I sometimes find
Speaker 1: myself going like, oh wait, I wouldn't agree with this
Speaker 1: at all, with the way I'm behaving right now, I
Speaker 1: would advise somebody against that. Oh yeah, in all fairness
Speaker 1: to my husband, there have been times when I thought
Speaker 1: Dan Savage would definitely tell your husband right now, Dan Savage,
Speaker 1: to get divorce. You are asked too, so and what
Speaker 1: books do you have you read that you would like
Speaker 1: to share that have had the most impact on you,
Speaker 1: advice or self help or you know whatever in that
Speaker 1: arena genre. I really think um Aster Parrel's books Mating
Speaker 1: in Captivity and State of Affairs, a book about sex
Speaker 1: in a long term relationship, Desire and a long Term Relationship.
Speaker 1: Those are the best two books I think anybody can
Speaker 1: read about sex and relationships. She's a couple's counselor ted talker.
Speaker 1: She podcast to herself. Absolutely genius Aster Parrel. You know,
Speaker 1: one of her observations is that two desires to want
Speaker 1: and the paradox of a long term relationship is how
Speaker 1: do you want what you have which you already have?
Speaker 1: And if you want to try to figure that out?
Speaker 1: If you're an exclusive, committed, monogamous, long term relationship, a
Speaker 1: star parrel is really the best place to go, you know.
Speaker 1: You raise something like I'm coming up. I think we're
Speaker 1: almost at our one year anniversary, my boyfriend and I
Speaker 1: and and it's interesting because it's like every time you
Speaker 1: start a relationship, it's like youth. It's like the saying
Speaker 1: youth is wasted on the young. Right you start a relationship,
Speaker 1: you really just don't believe it's going to happen to you,
Speaker 1: like that that feeling and those endorphins and all of
Speaker 1: the stuff that comes with wanting to someone, wanting somebody
Speaker 1: and wanting them badly. All the time, you just fantasize
Speaker 1: about fucking fuck dinner. Nobody even wants dinner at that point.
Speaker 1: You know, it's like the first two months where you're like,
Speaker 1: you lose ten pounds because you're so excited about who
Speaker 1: you're having sex with and having sex with them, and
Speaker 1: then real life starts to settle in, and then you
Speaker 1: gain that weight back, and then you get used to
Speaker 1: having that person in your life and you acclimate to
Speaker 1: all of those things, and everything everyone tells you becomes true.
Speaker 1: You know, you don't have that ripping, roaring, raging desire
Speaker 1: anymore because you've become a union with this person, like
Speaker 1: you're a team, and the newness is gone. And it's
Speaker 1: funny that it doesn't matter how old you get. You
Speaker 1: don't believe that's going to happen to you, and it
Speaker 1: happens every time, and good advice should be realistic about that.
Speaker 1: Like a lot of people live around thinking there's something
Speaker 1: wrong with them, something wrong with the relationship, something they
Speaker 1: should do or say to get back to that, you know, infatuated.
Speaker 1: I want to drink all your spit feeling of the
Speaker 1: first few months, and that's never coming back. And you
Speaker 1: have to figure out what in the long term relationship compensates,
Speaker 1: what's different and also interesting or valuable about that long
Speaker 1: term relationship, about the sex and the intimacy and the
Speaker 1: long term relationship, and it's gonna be different. But the
Speaker 1: whole relationship advice industrial complex is selling often delusions and
Speaker 1: convincing people that you know, if you just buy this
Speaker 1: book or listen to this show, you can fix it.
Speaker 1: You can adjust all the dials and then you'll be
Speaker 1: sucking each other like you were sucking each other in
Speaker 1: the first month. And that's just a lie. So Dan,
Speaker 1: you really coined the phrase monogamish, right, and you and
Speaker 1: your husband have been open for quite some time. Is
Speaker 1: that something you feel has increased your attraction level to
Speaker 1: your husband? Oh? Absolutely, and it's also something you know.
Speaker 1: Esther Perel said that even if you're not going to
Speaker 1: fund other people, sometimes it will reignite your desire if
Speaker 1: your partner, if you see your partner through someone else's eyes, Like,
Speaker 1: go somewhere where somebody might flirt with your partner, and
Speaker 1: you'll suddenly realize how attractive your partner is again, and
Speaker 1: your partner will also feel affirmed and desirable, and that's important.
Speaker 1: And gay men are really good at this because you know,
Speaker 1: most gay relationships aren't monogamous, and gay men also go
Speaker 1: to places where like men are. It's not that men
Speaker 1: gay men behave this way because they're gay men. Gay
Speaker 1: men behave this way because they're men and are just
Speaker 1: like dogs. And to like go to a gay bar
Speaker 1: with kind of a sexually heightened a lot of erotic
Speaker 1: tension and see people who want to funk your husband
Speaker 1: reminds you that you want to suck your husband too,
Speaker 1: and you wanted to suck your husband first, And then
Speaker 1: you'll go home and suck your husband. I was funny
Speaker 1: you say that. I was having a conversation with my
Speaker 1: trainer Ben Bruno the other day and he because he's
Speaker 1: as straight as an arrow, and he was talking about
Speaker 1: that show The Staircase. Have you watched that, Dan, I
Speaker 1: haven't yet, but I read the article is based on Okay,
Speaker 1: so the televised version like that they turned into a
Speaker 1: series with Tony Collette and Colin Firth. There's a scene
Speaker 1: where he goes to this pornographic store. Pornography store, I'm
Speaker 1: not I guess magazines, yeah, because it takes place like
Speaker 1: in the eighties, so he's like looking at a dirty magazine.
Speaker 1: He and this other guy he's he's supposedly a straight,
Speaker 1: you know, married man, but he's clear he's sucking men
Speaker 1: on the side. He goes to this pornography store. There's
Speaker 1: another guy. They make eye contact once, then they meet
Speaker 1: in a back room and don't even speak. Like one
Speaker 1: of them is has his back facing the opening of
Speaker 1: this area and the guy comes in and they just
Speaker 1: start fucking. And my trainer Ben Bruno goes, I mean
Speaker 1: when that's so unrealistic. He goes that two men just
Speaker 1: start fucking. I go think about what you're saying. Men
Speaker 1: are men, will fuck anything, and if you get two
Speaker 1: of them together, they're not going to fucking talk. The
Speaker 1: only reason anyone's talking is there because there's a woman involved, right,
Speaker 1: Straight men would do everything gay men do if straight
Speaker 1: men could, but straight men can't because women won't. And
Speaker 1: why won't women. It's not that there aren't horny women
Speaker 1: out there who might be up for casual or even
Speaker 1: anonymous sex, but slut shaming and sexual violence and the
Speaker 1: risk of pregnancy and disease all followed disproportionately out to
Speaker 1: women's shoulders, which ups the opportunity cost for women of
Speaker 1: being sexually impulsive. Well, those things aren't necessarily a problem
Speaker 1: when two men are going to get together. And I
Speaker 1: always like blows my mind when a straight guys like
Speaker 1: you gay men and your bushes and bathhouses so disgusting
Speaker 1: and now I would look at them and say, if
Speaker 1: I told you there was a building full of women
Speaker 1: I wanted to get fucked right now. Don't know your
Speaker 1: name or your phone number ever see you again. You're
Speaker 1: telling me that straight men wouldn't go there, that straight
Speaker 1: men wouldn't be lined up around the block to get
Speaker 1: into that building. All the bathhouse a gay bath houses
Speaker 1: is a whore house staff by volunteers, and there's no
Speaker 1: parallel in straight land. But if there were, straight guys
Speaker 1: would go. Yeah. Absolutely, they're jealous. They're so jealous. They're
Speaker 1: so jealous of gay men's lifestyles because yeah, and then
Speaker 1: it's it's optional for gay men, like we shouldn't say,
Speaker 1: like all gay men go to I don't go to
Speaker 1: bath houses. I have to know somebody's name. I'm very
Speaker 1: much my lesbian friends call me a lesbian, like I
Speaker 1: kind of have to know somebody a little bit before
Speaker 1: I couldn't, and then I couldn't. Like when I first
Speaker 1: came out and as gay as eighteen years old, my
Speaker 1: friends took me to like those dirty bookstores where people
Speaker 1: had sex in the back, and I was just like,
Speaker 1: it's dark in there, Like what if one of my
Speaker 1: uncles comes in here. I don't want to accidentally blow
Speaker 1: one of my uncles who could be closeted and gay
Speaker 1: for all. I don't. So I was very squeamish and
Speaker 1: thank god, thank god, because because I came out at night,
Speaker 1: and so if I'd been like I'd probably be dead.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, good point. Okay, there you go. Okay, Well
Speaker 1: on that note, Catherine, what do we have in store
Speaker 1: for us today? Oh? So many sex questions. We have perfects,
Speaker 1: perfect We have to put you to good use today. Okay,
Speaker 1: so forgive us in advance. Yeah, people are having a
Speaker 1: lot of sex, people are having not enough sex and
Speaker 1: everything in between. But we'll take a quick break and
Speaker 1: we'll be back with Dan Savage and Chelsea. Okay, Dan
Speaker 1: and I are just going to head over to a
Speaker 1: bath thousand. We'll be right back, and we are back.
Speaker 1: That was satisfying. It was I really enjoyed talk and
Speaker 1: I enjoyed watching. Oh you're welcome, Catherine. I like being observed.
Speaker 1: Our first question comes from a a as a woman.
Speaker 1: Dear Chelsea, I don't know how to say this, so
Speaker 1: I'm coming straight out with it. My husband and I
Speaker 1: just webb three months ago and we're not having sex.
Speaker 1: It's been about a month and we've had sex one
Speaker 1: which felt like he was doing it out of pity
Speaker 1: for me. He says it's because of arguments we've been
Speaker 1: having and that things will get better. But I have concerns. Firstly,
Speaker 1: I'm worried that this will continue for our prolonged period.
Speaker 1: It seems like every couple I know that isn't having
Speaker 1: sex started their dry spell this way. I'm also worried
Speaker 1: that he just isn't attracted to me anymore. There have
Speaker 1: been a couple of times I've noticed him looking at
Speaker 1: other women lately. I trust him and I don't think
Speaker 1: he would cheat, but it's hurtful to see when I
Speaker 1: know we're obviously lack in chemistry at the moment. We
Speaker 1: used to be all over each other, and now he
Speaker 1: won't even kiss me. It's really hard for me not
Speaker 1: to take it personally, and at this point, I feel
Speaker 1: like I'm desperately vying for my husband to have sex
Speaker 1: with me. It makes me feel pathetic. We've talked about
Speaker 1: it at nauseum, and it seems to make things worse
Speaker 1: and more awkward. My question is how do we get
Speaker 1: over this hump. I don't want to pressure myself or him,
Speaker 1: but I feel like we just have to do it
Speaker 1: before things continue on this dry path. Thanks so much
Speaker 1: for reading. I love your podcast. You give the best advice,
Speaker 1: and if there's someone that can help me, I know
Speaker 1: it's you. Sincerely A Okay, well, Dan, I'm to let
Speaker 1: you take this from the top, since this is in
Speaker 1: your wheelhouse M D M A. And the weekend of
Speaker 1: the cabin might help, you know, I think it's actually
Speaker 1: I think it's giving it that the sex drive up
Speaker 1: so soon after getting married, and a lot of straight
Speaker 1: people have it in their heads, consciously or subconsciously that
Speaker 1: marriage means the end of fun, adventure, possibility, and that
Speaker 1: can really smother desire. You know, you see straight people
Speaker 1: doing this thing. We're like, we're gonna have a bachelor
Speaker 1: party or a bachelor party, and what's being what the
Speaker 1: implicit statement of a bachelor or bachelor party is after
Speaker 1: you're married, no more fun. This is your last chance
Speaker 1: to have fun. And so maybe the husband, you know,
Speaker 1: thinks that because they're married now, the fun has to
Speaker 1: stop or the fund has stopped, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: marriage for some people comes with a lot of dear
Speaker 1: oticizing baggage. You know, he now looks at you, is
Speaker 1: not his hot girlfriend that he's tucking, but his wife.
Speaker 1: And so I think maybe in couples counseling you could
Speaker 1: dig down there. But I gotta say, if at three
Speaker 1: months you're not fucking and you're having to get into
Speaker 1: couple's counseling about not fucking. I don't have a lot
Speaker 1: of hope for your marriage that this isn't a problem
Speaker 1: that you should be facing three months in. If he
Speaker 1: has some sort of Madonna horror complex where he could
Speaker 1: suck his girlfriend but not his wife, that's work that
Speaker 1: he needed to do before he got married, when he
Speaker 1: was single on his own. Trying to do that work
Speaker 1: now with you there tapping your foot impatiently waiting for dick,
Speaker 1: I don't know if he's gonna be able to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would also like to say that that may be true,
Speaker 1: like that is a that is a concerning sign. But
Speaker 1: you did mention that you've been arguing a lot, and
Speaker 1: I know when I'm arguing, I don't want to have
Speaker 1: sex with the person that i'm arguing with, Like that
Speaker 1: is not a turn on. And if you're belaboring the
Speaker 1: point about not having sex, that also is now to
Speaker 1: turn on. So instead of overly overly discussing something like
Speaker 1: ad nauseum, as you mentioned, I would say to really
Speaker 1: put a pin in the subject of sex and let
Speaker 1: things happen in a natural way and give it a minute.
Speaker 1: Give it a minute so that you can actually naturally
Speaker 1: come to each other, you know, after a fun night
Speaker 1: out or I don't know what you prefer, like if
Speaker 1: you guys are mourning people or night people. Just let
Speaker 1: some time pass where you're not rehashing the fact that
Speaker 1: you're not having sex, so that there can be a
Speaker 1: natural coming together. Because if you guys already were all
Speaker 1: over each other at some point, then that's a pretty
Speaker 1: good indication that you have that chemistry and you can
Speaker 1: get back there. But there was also something I mean,
Speaker 1: him checking out other women and you noticing that, Like
Speaker 1: I can understand that you're feeling slightly paranoid, and that's
Speaker 1: coming across in your letter, and there's an air of
Speaker 1: desperation in your letter, which is fine because you're being
Speaker 1: honest and it's important for you to be honest with
Speaker 1: your feelings. But I would really really implore that you
Speaker 1: have to take a step back and not make it
Speaker 1: a mandate, you know, let it. Let let the conversations
Speaker 1: aren't working in the way that you're hoping they will.
Speaker 1: It's been this amount of time and you guys aren't
Speaker 1: being sexually active, so what you're doing, your approach isn't
Speaker 1: working right now. So you should do the opposite, you know,
Speaker 1: and take a couple of steps back, like I said,
Speaker 1: and wait until there's an opportune moment that makes sense.
Speaker 1: That isn't you like saying, hey, I want to seduce you.
Speaker 1: You know, in this way, it's just like a coming together,
Speaker 1: and there can be physical touching in between that time,
Speaker 1: you know, like hand holding and stuff like that does
Speaker 1: have an impact on people and their closeness. You know,
Speaker 1: some people aren't touchy feeling and some people aren't, So
Speaker 1: you know that better than than I would about you
Speaker 1: and your partner. But like, let those things develop and
Speaker 1: don't put so much pressure on the situation because as
Speaker 1: soon as you over lead, discuss and argue about a
Speaker 1: subject like that, it's very hard for somebody who doesn't
Speaker 1: have a reasonable explanation as to what they're feeling to perform.
Speaker 1: There's clearly something going on with him. I think it's
Speaker 1: great advice to put a pin in it the argument
Speaker 1: about sex. I would also encourage you to think about
Speaker 1: the rest of the ship that you're arguing about right now.
Speaker 1: There's arguments that have been going on prior to the sex.
Speaker 1: One of the ideas I tossed around on my show
Speaker 1: A lot is the price of admission that there are
Speaker 1: certain prices of admission that you pay to be in
Speaker 1: a relationship with someone. Not everything can be resolved. There
Speaker 1: are certain conflicts you have to agree that you're going
Speaker 1: to step around. And often, you know, when people marry,
Speaker 1: not just the husband having some weird idea that marriage
Speaker 1: at the end of fun. People marry and then think, well,
Speaker 1: now I have to iron out all we have to
Speaker 1: like fight out everything that we are in conflict about,
Speaker 1: come to a resolution, solve these problems. And the real
Speaker 1: trick of any long term relationship is identifying the problems
Speaker 1: you can't solve and to stop trying to stop and
Speaker 1: you know, creating conflict about things that no amount of
Speaker 1: conflict is going to resolve and step around those things.
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone should put up with emotional abuse,
Speaker 1: physical abuse, neglect, to which itself is can be a
Speaker 1: kind of abuse. But you know, if you're fighting because
Speaker 1: his socks on the floor, you're fighting because she doesn't
Speaker 1: load the dishwasher the way you think it should be loaded,
Speaker 1: you cannot have those fights. You can just reload the dishwasher.
Speaker 1: You can be the one who picks the laundry up
Speaker 1: off the floor and then look around and see, you know,
Speaker 1: the things he might be doing or she might be
Speaker 1: doing that they're putting up with your bullshit. And so
Speaker 1: much to the conflict I see in LTRs, among my friends,
Speaker 1: among my listeners and callers is people having fights about
Speaker 1: things they could just go. You know what, it doesn't matter.
Speaker 1: This is a price of admission. I'm willing to pay
Speaker 1: to be in this relationship, and I'm not going to
Speaker 1: complain about it anymore or try to run it to
Speaker 1: ground anymore. You know, my husband is kind of a slab,
Speaker 1: and we used to fight about that, and then one
Speaker 1: day I just started picking up after him and it
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, this picking up after him
Speaker 1: is a lot easier than arguing about and picking up
Speaker 1: after himself. Yeah, and it just remember, like, it's not
Speaker 1: a turn on to fight. I know a lot of
Speaker 1: people think that they get in fight and makeup. Sex
Speaker 1: is great, but that's like a temporary thing. Also, if
Speaker 1: you're in a constant state of arguing, it's unlikely that
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to have sex with each other. So yeah,
Speaker 1: where are those people who mistake conflict for passion exactly.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so take this advice, put a pit in it,
Speaker 1: and if the situation continues in six months, then yeah,
Speaker 1: you do have an issue, and you do need to
Speaker 1: go to counseling. But I would say right now to
Speaker 1: take the pressure off yourself and take the pressure off
Speaker 1: of him, and try to and just enjoy each other
Speaker 1: right now, and hopefully naturally this thing your sexual life
Speaker 1: will come back. Can I give one more piece of advice.
Speaker 1: We don't know how long they were dating before they
Speaker 1: got married, so it may just be a coincidence that
Speaker 1: they got married and then it fell apart. Maybe it
Speaker 1: was starting to fall apart sexually. When you think about
Speaker 1: the sex you had early in a relationship, it was risky,
Speaker 1: like your adrenaline was pumping. You're getting naked with somebody
Speaker 1: that you barely knew. They could be an ax murderer,
Speaker 1: you could be crazy, like it felt. Sex at the
Speaker 1: start is risky and dangerous, and risk is arousing sex,
Speaker 1: and an LTR the risk goes away, and so sometimes
Speaker 1: people mistake the LTR and they think something's missing in
Speaker 1: the partnership, and no, you're the same people you were.
Speaker 1: It's just like there's no danger anymore, and what you
Speaker 1: miss is the danger. And so you know, at the
Speaker 1: beginning of a new sexual relationship, you're the adventure. There on,
Speaker 1: they're the adventure you're on when you're together ten years
Speaker 1: and you want to feel that again, that kind of risk, danger, adrenaline,
Speaker 1: those adventurous feelings. You've got to go on an adventure together.
Speaker 1: You've got an engineer risk into your sexual relationship that
Speaker 1: at the beginning of your sexual relationship was just present,
Speaker 1: without any effort, without any intentionality, and so like, you've
Speaker 1: been together ten years and it's not exciting now like
Speaker 1: it was at the beginning. Of course, it's not Go
Speaker 1: have sex in public, Go have sex in a sex club,
Speaker 1: Get out of your bedroom, get off the bed. But
Speaker 1: a different time, go to a bathhouse, get a cabin
Speaker 1: in the woods for the weekend and go funk and
Speaker 1: then take some M d m A and you'll remember
Speaker 1: why you loved each other. You should read Love Drugs
Speaker 1: by Brian Er, which is the science behind go to
Speaker 1: the cabin for the weekend with your LTR partner into
Speaker 1: some m d m A. What is LTR stand for?
Speaker 1: Forgive me for asking Dan? But long term relationship? Okay?
Speaker 1: Good to know. I was like, is that latent? I'm like,
Speaker 1: what trying to hear out initials there. We can't prescribe
Speaker 1: molly to people or m d m A because we're
Speaker 1: not medical practitioners, but you certainly are free to do
Speaker 1: whatever drugs you think you want to do. So you
Speaker 1: heard that here first, and keep us keep us posted, please,
Speaker 1: we want to know what happens. Yes, thanks a well.
Speaker 1: Our next question comes from a Saila. She's here on
Speaker 1: the phone. She says, Dear Chelsea, I'm a thirty five
Speaker 1: year old Mexican immigrant mother of two girls, five and two.
Speaker 1: My five year old is at that age where she's
Speaker 1: super curious and inquisitive. She's wise beyond her years, incredibly smart,
Speaker 1: and is amazing and expressing her feelings. I'm proud of
Speaker 1: the girl i'm raising, given how different my parenting is
Speaker 1: from the parenting I received in my childhood. I've noticed
Speaker 1: lately that she's exploring her body. I catch her sitting
Speaker 1: in awkward positions where I can tell she's rubbing up
Speaker 1: against something, and although I know she isn't doing anything wrong,
Speaker 1: I know it's natural and immediate and irrational. Anger comes
Speaker 1: over me and I've yelled at her over something seemingly
Speaker 1: harmless to her. I do not want to confuse her,
Speaker 1: and I definitely don't want to shame her. I was
Speaker 1: shamed as a child and teenager and even as a
Speaker 1: woman for being sexual, and I don't want to do
Speaker 1: that to her. But I don't know why I react
Speaker 1: this way. I've looked up scientific articles I'm a public
Speaker 1: health graduate student to find out whether this is healthy
Speaker 1: child behavior, and I think it is. But there's not
Speaker 1: much literature out there that I can find on how
Speaker 1: to talk to young children about their sexuality anyhow. I
Speaker 1: wish I could just talk about this with other women,
Speaker 1: but even that feels taboo. How can I overcome this
Speaker 1: reaction so I can be cool and collected for my
Speaker 1: child when she needs me. If I can't deal with
Speaker 1: this now, what will I be like when she's older
Speaker 1: and inevitably has a sex life. Hi? Hi, Hi, how
Speaker 1: are you? I'm good. I'm very much enjoying this. Thank
Speaker 1: you for having me. I get this question, and some
Speaker 1: other people they're they're small child begins, you know, touching themselves,
Speaker 1: and they don't want to sec shame the child. They
Speaker 1: don't want to give the child hang ups. But it's
Speaker 1: important for your kid not to wind up in first
Speaker 1: grade touching themselves in a way where they will be
Speaker 1: shamed or picked on or stigmatized. So the balance you
Speaker 1: have to strike is communicating to your kid that there's
Speaker 1: a time and a place for this, and this is
Speaker 1: a private kind of touch, and you're not to touch
Speaker 1: yourself this way in front of your mom, in front
Speaker 1: of a television, in front of classmates. This is a
Speaker 1: private time thing. And I don't think that's shaming. It's correcting,
Speaker 1: and it's setting your kid up to avoid the potential
Speaker 1: negative fallout of not hearing that as a kid, not
Speaker 1: knowing when and where this kind of pleasurable self touch
Speaker 1: is appropriate. And I don't think that's shaming that you
Speaker 1: feel this anger rise up in you. That's something to
Speaker 1: maybe unpacked with a therapist, because that is kind of
Speaker 1: looking at your child and fearing that your child is
Speaker 1: a sexual person. And one of the things that you
Speaker 1: know if you're the parent of of kids, and I'm
Speaker 1: a parent, one of the things you realize pretty quickly
Speaker 1: is that kids aren't sexually newter or neutral, that kids
Speaker 1: are already have a kind of I'm not saying kids
Speaker 1: should be sexually active. I'm not saying it's right for
Speaker 1: anybody be attracted to a child. But kids have agency
Speaker 1: and some sort of sexual self awareness even at age
Speaker 1: five um, and a sense of what their bodies will
Speaker 1: be capable of later in life as adults, a dawning
Speaker 1: awareness of it. And it's your job as the parent
Speaker 1: to channel that to the appropriate time and place so
Speaker 1: your kid isn't attacked, scolded, shamed by peers, by authority
Speaker 1: figures they may encounter outside the home. You want to
Speaker 1: have that in its right channel and have your kid's
Speaker 1: head screwed on straight about that before they're out there
Speaker 1: in the world moving independently of you. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: or jerking off on monkey bars, which is what I
Speaker 1: was doing growing up. Actually, no, there weren't monkey board bars.
Speaker 1: It was a swing set with the metal poles in
Speaker 1: between the swings, and I would ride those to give
Speaker 1: myself the feeling over my clothes. And I would ride
Speaker 1: those bars and then the recess bell would ring and
Speaker 1: I would be climaxing. So I couldn't go back into
Speaker 1: school because I was busy, And the teacher came out
Speaker 1: and basically told me that I had to stop rubbing
Speaker 1: my vagina against the metal posts during recess, otherwise I
Speaker 1: wouldn't be allowed to go to recess anymore. But so
Speaker 1: then I just found different appliances to put under my desk.
Speaker 1: I mean, I jerked off so much in school between
Speaker 1: third and fourth grade with whatever appliance I used, pencils, anything,
Speaker 1: And I would never want to touch my vagina directly
Speaker 1: because that, to me was disgusting. But finding any other
Speaker 1: things to eroticize myself it was, you know, open game.
Speaker 1: Even at my parents dinner table, I would take a
Speaker 1: ladle and I would rub it in between my legs
Speaker 1: and I would jerk off while our family was having dinner,
Speaker 1: and nobody said anything to until my brother said, can
Speaker 1: someone please tell her to stop? She does it all
Speaker 1: the time. And that was when I first got caught
Speaker 1: out and I was shamed, and I didn't masturbate again
Speaker 1: until probably I was in my late thirties because I
Speaker 1: thought it was so embarrassing. So shame, yes, shame could
Speaker 1: carry you a long way, go stays with you a
Speaker 1: long time. But a Sailah, the reason why you're having
Speaker 1: the reaction you're having is because your parents. You were
Speaker 1: shamed or whoever shamed you for doing that when you
Speaker 1: were younger. As why, it's pretty much that simple. We
Speaker 1: perpetuate those things. Whatever you were shamed about, you feel
Speaker 1: shame about, and then seeing your daughter, that's coming out
Speaker 1: of wanting to protect her, you know, and everything that
Speaker 1: Dan said is perfectly accurate. You want to make sure
Speaker 1: that she doesn't have shame around touching herself, but that
Speaker 1: she knows it's something that she has to do in
Speaker 1: the privacy of her own bedroom, and that she has
Speaker 1: to do by herself and not with anyone else around,
Speaker 1: certainly not any adults or other children around. So it's
Speaker 1: totally fucking normal for your kid to touch themselves. Everybody
Speaker 1: deals with this, so you're not alone. And I would
Speaker 1: also say, you know, please start talking to other mothers
Speaker 1: about this, because it's not as taboo as you think.
Speaker 1: That's in your head and that's the way that you
Speaker 1: were raised. It really isn't taboo. Anybody who has a
Speaker 1: little girl or a little boy has experienced them fiddling
Speaker 1: around with their private parts. I would just want to
Speaker 1: add that you brought up the fact that you sometimes
Speaker 1: feel an anger rise up in you, and I think
Speaker 1: there's two ways to see that anger. And you know
Speaker 1: anger that your your daughter is doing this thing that's sexual.
Speaker 1: But if you just shift your perspective a little bit,
Speaker 1: I think that can be fear for your daughter, and
Speaker 1: that fear is a very motivating thing for parents. You
Speaker 1: want to protect your kids and a kid you want
Speaker 1: to You know, sex is dangerous, sex is risky, Sex
Speaker 1: is scary. Sex is bigger and stronger than all of us.
Speaker 1: Sex created us. And to see your kid already in
Speaker 1: the grip or all of sex is to see your
Speaker 1: kid in danger. And so you might help you to
Speaker 1: understand your emotions at that moment not as anger, but
Speaker 1: as concern and fear and not unreasonable concern and fear
Speaker 1: for your kids safety as a parent, to channel you know,
Speaker 1: this kind of touch which is appropriate for her age
Speaker 1: right now, in a way where it's not a danger
Speaker 1: to her, And to really understand that some of your
Speaker 1: fear anger is anticipating what sex is going to mean
Speaker 1: for your kid, for your family, for the risks she's
Speaker 1: going to run when she is an adult, when she
Speaker 1: is an older teenager and becomes sexually active. So don't
Speaker 1: fault yourself for that anger, Just like, shift your perspective
Speaker 1: and see that anger is legitimate, motivating concern for your kid.
Speaker 1: I appreciate you saying that so much because I think
Speaker 1: you hit the nail right on the head. I think
Speaker 1: fear is definitely the you know, the back, you know,
Speaker 1: like in the background here, and I think they're selves.
Speaker 1: So a lot of cultural stuff that we're caring that,
Speaker 1: you know in my family. Still even talking about it
Speaker 1: later with my grandma, she was like, do not say
Speaker 1: it's private, just discourage it period, Like, don't do it
Speaker 1: at all, it could be bad for her. And I
Speaker 1: was like, wait, like we need to change the way
Speaker 1: that we talk about is we need to talk about
Speaker 1: it first of all. And that's the reason why I
Speaker 1: even submitted my question. Just even talking about it. It's
Speaker 1: important to me because I look around and I'm like,
Speaker 1: who do I talk about this, you know with, And
Speaker 1: I want to change the conversation. I know it's normal,
Speaker 1: and I've read about it, and I see her and
Speaker 1: I know she's doing nothing wrong, and I remember what
Speaker 1: I was being shamed, and I don't do not want
Speaker 1: to do that to her. So it's irrational. I recognize
Speaker 1: that on my part that it's completely irrational, but it
Speaker 1: just you know, boils in me and comes out. So
Speaker 1: I think it is the fear and the thinking that
Speaker 1: she might be in danger and having heard growing up
Speaker 1: like conflicting advice about sex. Don't do it, but or
Speaker 1: you're gonna do it, but you know, So it's it's
Speaker 1: it was very confusing and it was very hard. Very
Speaker 1: late into my life. Did I feel like I came
Speaker 1: into myself feeling confident about me being a sexual being.
Speaker 1: So I don't want that for her, definitely. But but
Speaker 1: you were. You were shamed, and that was traumatizing for
Speaker 1: you and took your time to overcome. You're not shaming
Speaker 1: your daughter. You're going to direct your daughter. You are
Speaker 1: going to parent your kid and help her channel these
Speaker 1: things in appropriate ways while affirming that she's allowed to
Speaker 1: do these things, that these are pleasurable things, and so
Speaker 1: you're not shaming. Some parents get into their head that
Speaker 1: any correction and direction is shaming, and it's not. It's
Speaker 1: a very come from a very different place. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I appreciate that. Thank you so much. And you, you know,
Speaker 1: like any mothers that you have a close relationship with
Speaker 1: that school, or any mothers that aren't at school with
Speaker 1: your children and just friends of yours that are also mothers.
Speaker 1: I would urge you to open up that conversation because
Speaker 1: you'd probably be doing a lot of people that favor,
Speaker 1: because you're not the only one that feels like it's
Speaker 1: not being talked about enough, and your intention of just
Speaker 1: wanting to talk about it in a responsible way and
Speaker 1: not shaming your daughter is awesome. So you know, don't
Speaker 1: be shy about that. You know, that is a conversation
Speaker 1: worth having with people, getting different people's perspectives on how
Speaker 1: they handle the situation. You know, making sure your daughter
Speaker 1: understands it's okay, it's just a private thing. Take the
Speaker 1: butt out of it. You can do that. You need
Speaker 1: to be in your room. You know, it's a private situation.
Speaker 1: It's a private thing. You don't have to make it
Speaker 1: the way. You know. You want to stop the cycle
Speaker 1: of what happened to you. You know, that's all everyone's
Speaker 1: goal should be to try not to recreate the trauma
Speaker 1: that had been impressed upon you. And you're already doing
Speaker 1: that by being this thoughtful about it. Thank you, You're
Speaker 1: absolutely right. Thank you for having me sure, Thanks Selah.
Speaker 1: How cool to have a mom like that who's so
Speaker 1: forward thinking and like understands what her own behavior the
Speaker 1: consequences that gonna have for her child, and is working
Speaker 1: to take strengths to remedy that. If somebody just had
Speaker 1: told me in my family like what I was doing
Speaker 1: like I had, I would be hiding behind the sofa
Speaker 1: and I would be rubbing. I always did it, lying
Speaker 1: on my stomach, rubbing my pants underneath over my pants,
Speaker 1: but I would like have an ottoman covering the side
Speaker 1: of me. Like I thought I was being secretive. My
Speaker 1: whole family knew that I was masturbating all the time,
Speaker 1: and no one said a fucking word to me, like
Speaker 1: I wish somebody would have just said, hey, that's something
Speaker 1: you want to really keep to yourself. You know, the
Speaker 1: time and the place, and the family roommate the place
Speaker 1: and differently, and the dining room table also was not
Speaker 1: the place so right, But that's our family dysfunction junction.
Speaker 1: We are going to take a quick break so you
Speaker 1: can hear and add and then we'll be right back. Well,
Speaker 1: our next call is from Stephen. Stephen says, dear Chelsea.
Speaker 1: I said I'd give celibacy a go when I was
Speaker 1: twenty two for four years to prove a point, why
Speaker 1: what point? I did not fit into the gay lifestyle whatsoever,
Speaker 1: and struggled to fit in with that community based on
Speaker 1: my relationship and marriage goals. Unfortunately, that started a shift
Speaker 1: in my life that continued for more than the original
Speaker 1: four years as planned, and as each As each year
Speaker 1: has gone by, I've become more and more afraid to
Speaker 1: get back on the horse, so to speak. Now it's
Speaker 1: been twelve years. Oh my gosh. I've had the odd
Speaker 1: hook up here and there every year or so, enough
Speaker 1: that I can count on two hands. But I'm petrified
Speaker 1: of men and have no clue how to date or
Speaker 1: what a normal relationship is or normal interactions with men.
Speaker 1: The pandemic is also of no help. I've moved in
Speaker 1: with my godmother, which has made my sexless life even
Speaker 1: less sexy. Given that you're someone who spent quite a
Speaker 1: few years your legs in the air, I'm very jealous. Really,
Speaker 1: do you have any advice for me and my single
Speaker 1: forever which may also be okay? Stephen, and he is
Speaker 1: here with us? Oh good, Stephen, Let's see you. Where
Speaker 1: are you, Stephen? How are you? By Stephen? We have
Speaker 1: our special guest Dan Savage is here today. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: that is special. Yeah, he's a gay man, so you're
Speaker 1: in luck. I'm well aware who he is. I've had
Speaker 1: my legs and there a few times myself. Well, thanks
Speaker 1: for having me, and nice to meet you all. It's
Speaker 1: nice to meet you too. Okay, So it's been a while,
Speaker 1: huh it has and uh and yeah, twelve to fourteen years.
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to figure out the math. It's between
Speaker 1: that somewhere. So how old were you when you took
Speaker 1: your four year break when you decided to opt out?
Speaker 1: I was twenty. It's often the case that get you
Speaker 1: know our straight peers. My straight brothers were dating when
Speaker 1: they were thirteen, fourteen, fifteen years old in high school,
Speaker 1: and when you're gay, you often don't start dating until
Speaker 1: later in life. You don't come out, And so when
Speaker 1: we're twenty, we can feel like thirteen. And like I
Speaker 1: said to the previous car, sex is scary, and I
Speaker 1: can see you being afraid of sex, afraid of men
Speaker 1: at twenty and not having the same tools to handle
Speaker 1: dating and secks that even a woman of the same
Speaker 1: age who was into men might have. So I don't
Speaker 1: want to say you did something wrong by like pumping
Speaker 1: the brakes there. So I think setting an arbitrary four
Speaker 1: year I'm not going to date or have sex with
Speaker 1: anybody may have been a bit much, um, and you
Speaker 1: denied yourself the kind of furtive exploring sexual experiences that
Speaker 1: could have been formative and helped you. But it's not
Speaker 1: too late to start having those, right. Well, I, like
Speaker 1: you said, I was young, and I thought I had
Speaker 1: something to prove. And I thought, because that's a you know,
Speaker 1: in general, life is over sexualized, and especially in the
Speaker 1: ay world, that's sex sex sex, So I thought, I
Speaker 1: it's holier than thou and could prove this four year
Speaker 1: look at me thing, And that one sided with like
Speaker 1: a lot of trauma, so I was kind of hiding
Speaker 1: that and this would be an easy way to not
Speaker 1: have to indulge in sex to prove this for your thing.
Speaker 1: And then it just kept going on and on, and
Speaker 1: as the years go on, it just seems less and
Speaker 1: less attainable. Stephen, Can I ask you a co question
Speaker 1: you But you did have sex before you took this
Speaker 1: little hiatus, right, I did just big hiatus, yeah, from
Speaker 1: the ages of eighteen too. And did you have a
Speaker 1: lot of sex in those years, not a lot. I
Speaker 1: had a health scare when I was one that medical
Speaker 1: industry did treat me very well, and that caused a
Speaker 1: lot of trauma. And it's already a hypochondriact, so it
Speaker 1: was just easy to just shut everything down from there.
Speaker 1: So you know that stereotype, I should own it. Like
Speaker 1: earlier I was joking about, you know, straight men would
Speaker 1: do everything gay men do with straight men? Could not
Speaker 1: all gay men do all those things we associate with
Speaker 1: gamel communities, right, some of And someone says the gay
Speaker 1: world is all sex sex sex, Well, that's the corner
Speaker 1: of the gay world that gets a lot of press
Speaker 1: and a lot of jokes, but it also gets a
Speaker 1: lot of attention. If that's all you're seeing, that's possible
Speaker 1: for you in gayland. I would say that's the only
Speaker 1: place maybe you're looking, and you can turn your face
Speaker 1: away from that. Some people are like, but if I
Speaker 1: put I want a date or I want i'm anogonmous
Speaker 1: relationship on my Grinder profile or whatever, I don't get
Speaker 1: as many responses. Well, you don't get responses from guys
Speaker 1: who wouldn't want to date you. You don't get responses
Speaker 1: from guys who were only interested in sex, and you
Speaker 1: aren't interested in those guys, so scaring away those guys
Speaker 1: is actually good. And more responses on Grinder with a
Speaker 1: faceless picture, So that says enough about Grinder. Yeah, well yeah,
Speaker 1: but listen, Grinder is not the only spot there's I mean,
Speaker 1: I was just with my gay friend. I wish i'd
Speaker 1: know in the spot that he uses. What's the new
Speaker 1: one that everyone's using? Scruffyes, there's there's bunch, there's so many.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's myriad gay sites for you to be on,
Speaker 1: and you should use your picture. You should actually put
Speaker 1: it all out there so that you are getting honest
Speaker 1: feedback and you're not tricking anybody, or that you know,
Speaker 1: you're setting yourself up for failure so that they come
Speaker 1: and see you on a date and realize they were
Speaker 1: had a different expectations. But regardless of all of that,
Speaker 1: like you did this, it sounds now out of it
Speaker 1: was born out of a traumatizing event that you had,
Speaker 1: So you're letting that event kind of dictate the rest
Speaker 1: of your life. And now it's panic mode, yes, and
Speaker 1: you can't let and for that reason alone, you have
Speaker 1: to get out there if you put your actual face
Speaker 1: out there, which I think is smart. Put your actual
Speaker 1: not trauma. You don't want to make somebody feel like, Okay,
Speaker 1: I can't date this guy. Sith enough to take on
Speaker 1: all of their emotional burdens, but be honest about your
Speaker 1: lack of experience. I often hear from gay men who
Speaker 1: are like, I'm really in experience, and I'm afraid none
Speaker 1: of these guys are going to want to date me
Speaker 1: because I'm so inexperienced. There are other inexperienced gay guys
Speaker 1: out there who may have taken a hiatus from dating,
Speaker 1: or may just not have ever jumped in just the
Speaker 1: way you never jumped in or you jumped out, who
Speaker 1: are looking at your profile doing well. He's an attractive guy,
Speaker 1: he's got great hair, like he wouldn't be interesting because
Speaker 1: time so inexperienced. Lead with your inexperience. I'm nervous and
Speaker 1: I'm inexperienced, and you know I didn't. My twenties weren't
Speaker 1: like most gay men's twenties. And you think that's gonna
Speaker 1: turn some gay men off, Okay, it might good. You
Speaker 1: don't want to be with those gay guys. That's going
Speaker 1: to attract other gay guys. You have to filter those
Speaker 1: gay guys because you don't want to wind up with
Speaker 1: somebody who's hoping to take advantage of your inexperience. Right,
Speaker 1: But there are gay guys out there who are similarly
Speaker 1: inexperience exactly, and you guys who will feel safe opening
Speaker 1: up to you about that because you opened up to
Speaker 1: them first, right, Because it all kind of boils down
Speaker 1: to intimacy factor in general. If I if I've never
Speaker 1: dated or had a relationship, another question is do I
Speaker 1: just start having the sex part. I can't imagine like
Speaker 1: dating someone for the first time and having this sex
Speaker 1: thing in the back of my head. So if I
Speaker 1: should just like go out and just get it done
Speaker 1: and then look for dating from there. There's always when
Speaker 1: you talk about millions and millions of people, there's gonna
Speaker 1: be hundreds of thousands of exceptions. Most game and I
Speaker 1: know who are in relationships had a one night stand
Speaker 1: or hook up and then they just clicked and wanted
Speaker 1: to hook up with that person again, and then a
Speaker 1: relationship grew. But there are certainly gay men out there
Speaker 1: who were, like, I want to date. I'm a demisexual.
Speaker 1: There's a term for everything these days, I want to
Speaker 1: get to know somebody first and then maybe move on
Speaker 1: to sex, and then you might make an emotional investment
Speaker 1: in somebody in the sex doesn't work and you have
Speaker 1: to end it and like move on to the next
Speaker 1: emotional investment and then see if the sex works. But
Speaker 1: it's worth it. I think it's worth it for you
Speaker 1: to be honest. Listen, you don't want to traumatize yourself again, right,
Speaker 1: I think it's worth for you to be honest on
Speaker 1: your pages. Get on all those pages and say I'm
Speaker 1: looking to have make a connection with somebody. I'm not
Speaker 1: looking to go In this case, it would be not funk.
Speaker 1: First Dan, I would say, you know, I'm looking to
Speaker 1: make a connection with someone. I'm looking to take it slow.
Speaker 1: I understand that that's not why everybody's here, but that's
Speaker 1: what I'm looking for and I would respect that in return,
Speaker 1: or you know, somebody to be in the same position
Speaker 1: as I am, because like Dan said, you're gonna find
Speaker 1: like minded people that also have little experience with sex
Speaker 1: or don't have much recent experience with sex, and take
Speaker 1: it slow so that you can have a nice experience
Speaker 1: for your first time re entering the scene and entering
Speaker 1: someone or getting entered. I don't know what your bag is.
Speaker 1: You probably don't even know if you're a top our
Speaker 1: bottom that says it's been so long, But whatever it is,
Speaker 1: that's regard, you know. Regardless of that, you just respect
Speaker 1: yourself and taking the time and being honest and upfront
Speaker 1: with everyone so that there is no demand or expectation
Speaker 1: from them, and that they know where you're coming from,
Speaker 1: and that you laid it all out there, and then
Speaker 1: something will naturally develop with one of these people. You
Speaker 1: will be attracted to one of these people, and they
Speaker 1: will eventually one of these people will be attracted to you.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not gonna happen like lightning, maybe right
Speaker 1: out of the gate, but it's going to happen. And
Speaker 1: you owe it to yourself to put yourself back out
Speaker 1: there because you don't want to let this experience that
Speaker 1: you had so many years ago to find you. Right. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's true. And Stephen, are you in any kind of
Speaker 1: therapy right now? Um? Not at the moment, but I was,
Speaker 1: and that's something that I should get into again. I
Speaker 1: had It's called E M d R, which is for
Speaker 1: anyone who has trauma in their past or PTSD it
Speaker 1: it was extremely beneficial, So that is something I should
Speaker 1: obviously do again. You say you live with your godmother. Yes,
Speaker 1: I've had to downsize my life a little bit, that's fine.
Speaker 1: Is your godmother supportive? Are you able to be out? Oh? Yeah,
Speaker 1: very much so. She would be thrilled, same with my
Speaker 1: real mother, and everyone would be Everyone in my life
Speaker 1: would be absolutely thrilled to see me not alone. I'm
Speaker 1: glad you have that kind of support. I think that's
Speaker 1: really important. What you need to what you need to
Speaker 1: disinhibit about, is you think no one would want to
Speaker 1: date me for this reason my experience. You know, I
Speaker 1: haven't been a relationship before. There are people out there
Speaker 1: who will want to date you for exactly that reason,
Speaker 1: or who won't care. We want to date you for
Speaker 1: other reasons, and those won't seem relevant. To stop disqualifying yourself,
Speaker 1: which is what you're doing right now. No one I
Speaker 1: want to date me. I'm not gonna put myself out there.
Speaker 1: I'm so inexperience. You're disqualifying yourself. Don't put yourself out there.
Speaker 1: To be really honest, and people will come along. We
Speaker 1: are interested in you and and sometimes, you know, paradoxically
Speaker 1: for exactly the reason you thought no one would want
Speaker 1: to date someone else who's equally inexperience is to be Okay,
Speaker 1: we share this, and I don't have to be stressed
Speaker 1: out about it. I don't have to worry about when
Speaker 1: I'm gonna tell him I have no experience because because
Speaker 1: he just told me he has none, And we can
Speaker 1: just be really honest with each other about that and
Speaker 1: then move on to see if we're compatible in all
Speaker 1: the other ways that matter. Right, Well, Stephen, let us
Speaker 1: know how it goes. Yeah, let's keep in touch with us, Okay, Stephen,
Speaker 1: and let us know, like when you start getting out
Speaker 1: there and you know, well, yeah, get those legs up.
Speaker 1: I'll let you know when more than just life is
Speaker 1: fucking me. Okay, right, thanks Steven, Thank you, Steven, Bye bye,
Speaker 1: okay bye. Well, now we know that Steven's the bottom,
Speaker 1: I think, which is a fine thing to be. Okay,
Speaker 1: So what do we have on deck? Catherine? All right,
Speaker 1: So our next email comes from b. B is a
Speaker 1: year old female and her boyfriend is twenty year old male.
Speaker 1: She says, Dear Chelsea, I've been dating my boyfriend for
Speaker 1: about five months now, and he really is the best
Speaker 1: guy I've ever been with in regards to the way
Speaker 1: he treats me and the things we both enjoy doing together.
Speaker 1: The problem is that my ex boyfriend from a few
Speaker 1: years ago gave me genital herpes without my informed consent,
Speaker 1: which really made me depressed for years. My current boyfriend
Speaker 1: isn't educated enough on it and it's freaked out by it.
Speaker 1: We've only had penetrative sex less than a handful of times,
Speaker 1: and each time has been pretty awkward because he can't
Speaker 1: stay hard or finish because he's in his head. He
Speaker 1: always makes sure I finish, but I missed the connection
Speaker 1: that's formed when you have sex with someone you love,
Speaker 1: and it just makes me feel like shit, even though
Speaker 1: he says he loves me. How do I bring this
Speaker 1: up to him without it sounding like I'm coercing him
Speaker 1: and having sex with me? B How long did she say?
Speaker 1: They were together? Five months? Five months and they've only
Speaker 1: had sex a handful of times? Well, okay, First of all,
Speaker 1: one in three people have herpes. It's very very common,
Speaker 1: and you can only spread herpes when you have an outbreak,
Speaker 1: which you'll know that you have. You know, and they're sure.
Speaker 1: There are times where people don't know they're having an outbreak,
Speaker 1: but as a woman, it's pretty obvious when you're having
Speaker 1: an outbreak and just like a man their penis, it
Speaker 1: shows up on their penis. There's like a bump and
Speaker 1: a redness. So I've dated a guy who has had herpes,
Speaker 1: and as long as you're forthcoming about it, if the
Speaker 1: person can't get past it, then like, I don't know
Speaker 1: what to tell you, Like they have to get past it.
Speaker 1: I got past it. It was not an issue for me.
Speaker 1: I was like, thanks for telling me. You know, I
Speaker 1: get it, and that's all you can do is give
Speaker 1: him your honesty. So I don't know what to say
Speaker 1: to that. I mean, I don't know how you can
Speaker 1: coerce him into staying horror are feeling more attractive if
Speaker 1: he if he's paranoid about catching herpes, other than giving
Speaker 1: him the education and and make and you know, looking
Speaker 1: it up for him and reading to him exactly when
Speaker 1: they are. The times are that he can catch that
Speaker 1: from you. Because you can easily be in a relationship
Speaker 1: with somebody who has herpes and not catch it from them.
Speaker 1: You can be in a relationship with someone has herpes
Speaker 1: and not know it, because most people who have herpes
Speaker 1: aren't even aware that they have herpies. And unlike people
Speaker 1: who have herpes and don't know it, I would say
Speaker 1: to the caller, you can take steps to protect your partner.
Speaker 1: So you can take valocyclovia, which is an antiretroviral medication
Speaker 1: which can make you less infectious and make outbreaks less common.
Speaker 1: Is that valtras? I think so? Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 1: That's what's its full name. And so you know, if
Speaker 1: I was talking to your boyfriend, what I would tell almost, Okay,
Speaker 1: worst case scenario, you can tract herpes. You're not going
Speaker 1: to die. Most people who have herpees have one outbreak
Speaker 1: and then never as beer an outbreak, sometimes never again
Speaker 1: another outbreak, and your odds of getting herpies if you
Speaker 1: guys are taking simple precautions, are very low. And so
Speaker 1: I would say to the caller's boyfriend, like, you have
Speaker 1: to decide is the risk of herpes worth being with
Speaker 1: this person? And if you're just so paranoid that you
Speaker 1: can't risk that, have the decency to break up with
Speaker 1: this person rather than every time you have sex with
Speaker 1: this person making them feel terrible which is what he's
Speaker 1: doing to the caller. And caller you have to ask
Speaker 1: yourself how long you're going to put up with that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's really not a big deal. It's it's
Speaker 1: not a big deal in my opinion. I dated guys
Speaker 1: who are HIV positive back when contracting h of E
Speaker 1: meant you were going to die in eighteen months or
Speaker 1: two years. And I didn't make them feel like they
Speaker 1: were nuclear waste or toxic. And I wouldn't have dated
Speaker 1: them and they wouldn't have put up with me as
Speaker 1: a boyfriend had I made them feel that way. I
Speaker 1: had to relax and accept what the risk I was
Speaker 1: running being in that relationship. And that's what your boyfriend
Speaker 1: has to accept the risk and relax and be with
Speaker 1: you or fuck off, and there's no middle ground. I
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, I agree, I agree? Or fuck off. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's got this woman's boyfriend makes me mad, and that
Speaker 1: this woman thinks that it's something that she needs to
Speaker 1: fix when he's the one with the with the problem,
Speaker 1: when he's the one who has some work to do here.
Speaker 1: You know, women are always the ones who are like
Speaker 1: convinced they have to nurture and tinker and if they
Speaker 1: just like say the right thing, do the right thing,
Speaker 1: they can fix the shitty guy. And he's kind of
Speaker 1: being a shitty guy with his dick right now, and
Speaker 1: like he needs to get past it. And maybe just
Speaker 1: sometimes you only learn about something like herpes after you
Speaker 1: date somebody with herpes, and that's what gets you past it.
Speaker 1: And so just five months in that you might need
Speaker 1: to educate him. Okay, we will allow for that. But
Speaker 1: if he can't be educated or refuses to be educated,
Speaker 1: we can't calm down, can't relax, can't love you show
Speaker 1: him the door. Amen. Wow, well that was easy. Our
Speaker 1: last que sin comes from Brad, he says, Dear Chelsea,
Speaker 1: my name is Brad and I'm thirty five years old,
Speaker 1: happily married to my husband of five years, together for
Speaker 1: thirteen years. My sister lives in Texas with her three sons,
Speaker 1: along with the rest of my family there eleven eight
Speaker 1: and six. My husband and I try to get out
Speaker 1: and see them at least once a year, or sometimes more.
Speaker 1: On our most recent trip, we quickly realized they had
Speaker 1: developed a new habit of calling each other gay. We've
Speaker 1: never hid from them the fact that we're married, love
Speaker 1: each other sleep in the same bed. However, we've never
Speaker 1: been a part of any serious conversation with them about
Speaker 1: what it means to be gay. So my first thought was, okay, ship,
Speaker 1: they heard someone say gay in a derogatory way and
Speaker 1: are now using it like we all did back in
Speaker 1: the nineties. I think I know how to go about
Speaker 1: that conversation. Then I realized that they were actually using
Speaker 1: the term quote correctly, meaning you are acting gay, which
Speaker 1: broke broke my heart. My husband and I were so
Speaker 1: shocked and had no idea what to say to them.
Speaker 1: My relationship with my sister is on a fragile side.
Speaker 1: We got into a major fight after I yelled at
Speaker 1: her kids point taken. It's not my place, but now
Speaker 1: I find myself in this situation. Her boys did this
Speaker 1: on several occasions in front of her, my mom, and
Speaker 1: my dad. No one said anything, so I started saying, guys,
Speaker 1: please stop saying that. You know what upsets me, and
Speaker 1: I've told you this before. I thought maybe that would
Speaker 1: trigger a reaction from my sister or mom or dad
Speaker 1: for that matter, but still no one said anything, So
Speaker 1: of course the boys completely ignored me. My dad their
Speaker 1: grandpa is also gay. They have another gay uncle on
Speaker 1: their dad's side, So why has no one had this
Speaker 1: conversation with them? How do I bring this up with
Speaker 1: my family in a non confrontational way. I have no
Speaker 1: idea how to bring it up without making my sister mad. Sincerely,
Speaker 1: Brad and Alex. Suck your sister, Dan, Why don't you
Speaker 1: take this one. I already did fuck your sister, make
Speaker 1: er mad. Have a confrontation, screaming y'all, blow the funk
Speaker 1: up that you're prioritizing your sister's feelings. Correct your kids
Speaker 1: when they insult you in front of your sister, defend yourself,
Speaker 1: defend your husband, defend your dad, and talk to them,
Speaker 1: and don't be inhibited by your sister's homophobic bullshit. And
Speaker 1: you know it takes a village to raise decent kids.
Speaker 1: And if a kid says something in your family, says
Speaker 1: something homophobic in front of you, says something racist in
Speaker 1: front of you, says something misogynistic in front of you,
Speaker 1: speak the fuck up. Don't defer to the dumbest bigot
Speaker 1: in the room. When this instance happens to be your
Speaker 1: own sister. M hmm, yeah, she probably thinks the behaviors innocuous,
Speaker 1: but like, where has she been for the last five years?
Speaker 1: Like that behavior should be nipped the bud The minute
Speaker 1: a child is saying anything like that should be nipped
Speaker 1: to the bud, especially if you have family members that
Speaker 1: are gay, Like it's so disrespectful to have to be
Speaker 1: there and hear that. But I would lay it out,
Speaker 1: you know, I wouldn't. I mean, I don't think there's
Speaker 1: a lot of results that come from a major blowout
Speaker 1: all the time. So I would lay it out in
Speaker 1: an email and just say just so you know, like
Speaker 1: this has been my life experience and how deeply offensive
Speaker 1: it is to not only hair your children talk like
Speaker 1: that when you have gay family members, but to also
Speaker 1: not say anything to them and leave me to correct them.
Speaker 1: What an onus that is? How can you do that?
Speaker 1: You yelled at me for trying to parent them once,
Speaker 1: yet you want to be absolved of any parenting. How
Speaker 1: do you think it makes me feel to come over
Speaker 1: and have little children making fun of a lifestyle, like
Speaker 1: they're not going to grow up in this world and
Speaker 1: get away with that behavior. So there's a lot of
Speaker 1: points you can make in that email, but I think
Speaker 1: it should just come from a place of hurt and
Speaker 1: asking her like, where's the line? When are you going
Speaker 1: to say something to them? It's been established that that's
Speaker 1: an inappropriate use of language. Calling somebody gay or telling
Speaker 1: somebody that they're acting gay is not cool anymore. And
Speaker 1: your fear is the uncle like worst case scenario is
Speaker 1: that you won't get to see your nephews or your
Speaker 1: sister for a while. If you stand up for yourself.
Speaker 1: Is that the worst case scenario here that you don't
Speaker 1: have to hang out with your homopublic sister and her
Speaker 1: now homophobic children who will one day hopefully apologize to you.
Speaker 1: That is not a bad outcome if they can't treat
Speaker 1: you with kindness, decency, and respect you and your husband.
Speaker 1: So stick up for yourself and don't be inhibited by
Speaker 1: the fear of the worst case scenario coming to pass
Speaker 1: that you don't have to do. You don't have to
Speaker 1: see these people for a while. How would you have
Speaker 1: that conversation with the kids If he is going to
Speaker 1: approach the subject with his nephews easily, I mean sitting
Speaker 1: down with them and explaining, hey, I'm a gay man.
Speaker 1: Your grandfather is a gay man. It's very disrespectful to
Speaker 1: cure you talking about that in terms that a you
Speaker 1: don't even really understand yet. These are little children, So
Speaker 1: the conversation with the child would be easier than with
Speaker 1: the adult because she's going to be defensive about her parenting,
Speaker 1: and she might think that you can't tell kids they
Speaker 1: shouldn't use gay in that way, because then you're gonna
Speaker 1: have to have a conversation about gay sex. And if
Speaker 1: a kid is using gay in that way, well then
Speaker 1: you might have to have a conversation about that acknowledges
Speaker 1: the existence of gay sex, just as you probably had
Speaker 1: a conversation with those same kids. Acknowledging the assistance of
Speaker 1: straight sucks because the kid they have already asked their
Speaker 1: parents where babies come from, and if they're old enough
Speaker 1: to be told that, they're old enough to know that
Speaker 1: gay people have sex for all the same reasons straight
Speaker 1: people do, except once or twice when straight people try
Speaker 1: to get pregnant. You know, sex is mostly for pleasure,
Speaker 1: and some people are sexually attracted to members of their
Speaker 1: same sex for the same reasons some people are attracted
Speaker 1: to members of the opposite sex. And you can definitely
Speaker 1: have that conversation with a child who's using gay as
Speaker 1: an insult. I found my nieces and nephews at that
Speaker 1: age they are such parrots and they're just parroting the
Speaker 1: behavior that they see. When my nieces or nephews have
Speaker 1: said something that to me is troubling, that feels borderline,
Speaker 1: and I have expressed to them, like, you know what,
Speaker 1: it's actually it's actually better to do things this way.
Speaker 1: It's actually better to be more accepting. It's it's cooler
Speaker 1: to be this way. They flip flop real fast, and
Speaker 1: they just because they're hearing a different perspective and suddenly
Speaker 1: they're like, oh wait, it's cool to be friends with
Speaker 1: that person. Oh wait, it's better to not use that
Speaker 1: type of language. I would never do that. They flip up.
Speaker 1: We're all real fast. So well, Brad and Alex's best
Speaker 1: of luck and let us know how that conversation it goes. Yeah,
Speaker 1: good luck with that. Yeah, we'll take a quick break
Speaker 1: and be right back. Okay, Dan and I just are
Speaker 1: taking a quick bottom break and top break, and I'm
Speaker 1: the bottom and he's the top, and now we're back
Speaker 1: and now we're a sandwich. Excellent. Well, Dan, I hear
Speaker 1: you have some advice you'd like to get from Chelsea. Oh,
Speaker 1: I thought you're gonna say advice you'd like to give
Speaker 1: to Chelsea. Yeah, And usually people will come on and
Speaker 1: ask for advice for themselves from Chelsea. But your producer
Speaker 1: let me know that there are a few questions sometimes
Speaker 1: that have you stumped, and you wanted to bring one
Speaker 1: of your stumpers on to ask Chelsea about that question.
Speaker 1: The question today comes from experienced. She says, Hi Dan,
Speaker 1: I'm a forty one year old bisexual female living in
Speaker 1: the rural Pacific Northwest. I'm somewhat recently divorced and getting
Speaker 1: back into the dating scene. I keep running into this
Speaker 1: problem over and over. Where I match with someone, things
Speaker 1: are going fantastic, conversations flowing, and inevitably the talk turns
Speaker 1: to sexual compatibility. I'm an experienced woman, and I'm proud
Speaker 1: of all the fun I've had in my life. I've
Speaker 1: played safe and feel very fulfilled. If someone asked me
Speaker 1: what's my number and I had to slap a number
Speaker 1: on it, I'd say eighties or nineties, maybe more. And
Speaker 1: every time I'm talking or texting or on a date
Speaker 1: with someone, one of three things happens. Either they drop
Speaker 1: off the face of the planet. And that's fine. I'm
Speaker 1: not everybody's cup of tea two. I'm no longer seen
Speaker 1: as someone who is datable, just fuckable. Talk of any
Speaker 1: dating or romance just completely drops off. But more often
Speaker 1: than not, this usually leads to conversations with gentlemen of
Speaker 1: their own fantasies, their own desires. But every time they
Speaker 1: just drop off the phase of the planet. They're no
Speaker 1: longer interested in dating me. They ghost me. It's just
Speaker 1: done and gone. Anyway, Help me, Dan, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out how I can be seen as someone who's
Speaker 1: both datable, worthy of love and romance, but also someone
Speaker 1: who is really great and bad with gobs of experience
Speaker 1: that I have to bring to the table. Help How
Speaker 1: can she be seen a worthy of love and romance
Speaker 1: as well as scorching hot sex while still being honest?
Speaker 1: So I thought this would be a fun one to
Speaker 1: share with Chelsea, because sex with more than one person.
Speaker 1: Thank you for putting it that way, putting it so mildly.
Speaker 1: First of all, you don't need to frontload all of
Speaker 1: that information into meeting somebody on the first on the
Speaker 1: first date, like that's not necessary for them to know,
Speaker 1: just like it's not necessary for you to divulge your
Speaker 1: entire childhood to somebody that you meet for the first time.
Speaker 1: And it's not lying. It's first of all, developing a
Speaker 1: connection with somebody and developing a trust. So if you
Speaker 1: want to date somebody, you have to get to know
Speaker 1: that person and they have to get to know you.
Speaker 1: And getting to know somebody means not frontloading every single
Speaker 1: thing that's ever happened to you on the first date.
Speaker 1: It's just unnecessary. You know, there's no intrigue there, there's
Speaker 1: no getting to know somebody, so you don't have to
Speaker 1: come out with all of that. You just have to
Speaker 1: go on a date, like you're not auditioning for a
Speaker 1: job and putting out this kind of resume, Like that's
Speaker 1: not an obligation. You're not lying. You're getting to know someone,
Speaker 1: and in time, when you feel trusting and trusted, you
Speaker 1: can reveal more about your personal history and your sexual history,
Speaker 1: and when the time is appropriate. But that time is
Speaker 1: definitely not in the first few dates with somebody. You're
Speaker 1: dealing with men who are fragile, and that is a generalization,
Speaker 1: but it's applicable to a lot of men. Men are
Speaker 1: very fragile, and while the right person will be okay
Speaker 1: with that information, there's no reason to give that that
Speaker 1: information away on the first date. Let somebody grow to
Speaker 1: understand you and respect you and have feelings for you,
Speaker 1: and then you can give out the that information if
Speaker 1: it's completely necessary for you to do that. If you
Speaker 1: feel like you have to give out that information, great,
Speaker 1: But there's no rule saying that you have to tell
Speaker 1: everybody everything about your past, even somebody you're dating. You
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have to tell that person. You want to
Speaker 1: be respectful and you want to be honest, Like if
Speaker 1: you have herpies, you want to tell that person. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've heardpies. But saying you've had sex with ninety people
Speaker 1: just seems extraneous. And group sex and kinky sex all
Speaker 1: on the first date. Yeah, yeah, all of it is
Speaker 1: just better left for the person that is going to
Speaker 1: be able to digest that. My advice to her was
Speaker 1: to slow her role, and that's your advice too. Yeah,
Speaker 1: slow your role is great. Just leave it at that.
Speaker 1: Slow your role. And the thing about having a lot
Speaker 1: of sexual experience as a woman and a man, having
Speaker 1: a problem with that you're the caller is disclosing all
Speaker 1: of that right away, and then men are ghosting her.
Speaker 1: And if she let a guy get to know her
Speaker 1: and then this came up and then they like had
Speaker 1: that conversation where they talk about, you know, their experiences,
Speaker 1: he may, if he's the type of guy who would
Speaker 1: gohost on the first date, knowing all of that, he
Speaker 1: may have to reassess his feelings and assumptions and prejudices
Speaker 1: about more sexual experienced women if he knows you better,
Speaker 1: if he knows you well enough to like say to
Speaker 1: to then question himself about the assumptions he might have
Speaker 1: made about a sexually experienced woman having gotten to know you.
Speaker 1: And that's often what really helps people get past their
Speaker 1: prejudices when it comes to dating and sex is getting
Speaker 1: to know somebody and then finding out more about them
Speaker 1: and then thinking, okay, well, my you know what I
Speaker 1: thought about, you know, people who are HIV positive, what
Speaker 1: I thought about people who did or used to do
Speaker 1: or are doing sex work, what I thought about whatever,
Speaker 1: what I thought about dating someone other therapies. I'm gonna
Speaker 1: have to rethink that because I have gotten to know
Speaker 1: this person, and of course you should disclose everything. Somebody
Speaker 1: has a right to know, so they can, you know,
Speaker 1: make informed consent before being sexually active with you. But
Speaker 1: they don't have to know everything right away. Yeah, there's
Speaker 1: no investment on the first date. It's easy, it is
Speaker 1: to reject someone if you don't like their lifestyle or
Speaker 1: their previous history. And like think like Chelsea, if you
Speaker 1: were on a first date with a guy and he
Speaker 1: suddenly told you the exact number of people you've had
Speaker 1: sex with, all the different kinds of sex he's had
Speaker 1: with these people. Even if you were like into the
Speaker 1: at and your number was as high or higher, wouldn't
Speaker 1: you be like, that's kind of bad judgment. Like you
Speaker 1: obviously have no filter, and what you want on the
Speaker 1: first date is like a good time and to see
Speaker 1: somebody has like a filter. Yeah, absolutely a filter. Filter.
Speaker 1: Slow your role and get a filter, yes, absolutely. Okay,
Speaker 1: Well there was a lot of sex talk today, Dan,
Speaker 1: I attribute that to your presence. Well, I really enjoyed it.
Speaker 1: I always loved sex talks, so yeah, I do. I
Speaker 1: love your advice too. It's nice, nice and straight. Thank
Speaker 1: you so much. It was a pleasure to spend time
Speaker 1: with you. Again. I really appreciate you coming on the podcast.
Speaker 1: My pleasure. Thank you for inviting me or I really
Speaker 1: enjoyed it and you give great advice to Thanks Dan,
Speaker 1: I'll see you soon hopefully. Okay, Thanks Dan, bye bye.
Speaker 1: And if you'd like to get advice from Chelsea and
Speaker 1: one of her guests, please write into Dear Chelsea Project
Speaker 1: at gmail dot com