1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:03,720 Speaker 1: Welcome to the Tutor Dixon Podcast. Well, today, my guest 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: describes herself as politically left of Bernie Sanders, and that 3 00:00:07,560 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: probably has you thinking that's pretty opposite of me. So 4 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:15,360 Speaker 1: what would this podcast be about. Well, we actually agree 5 00:00:15,400 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: on something, and that is that kids shouldn't be manipulated 6 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: by a medical professional. Because it turns out that most 7 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:26,480 Speaker 1: people around the country actually don't think of this as 8 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: a political decision. They think of this as just something 9 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:31,920 Speaker 1: that should be right for kids, and it's outside of 10 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: the realm of politics. But Jamie Reid, who is my 11 00:00:35,120 --> 00:00:38,199 Speaker 1: guest today, is so much braver than me. Jamie is 12 00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:42,560 Speaker 1: a former case worker at the Washington University Transgender Center 13 00:00:42,800 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: and she actually turned into a whistleblower on pediatric gender care. Well, 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: I wanted to talk to Jamie in light of what 15 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: we've seen out of this New York State case that 16 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: just awarded two million dollars to a d transitioner who 17 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: had her breast removed at sixteen is now twenty one, 18 00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 1: and she has received this award of two million dollars. 19 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of us had been 20 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: watching this and said, we don't really know what's happening. 21 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,319 Speaker 1: In the transgender world. But Jamie, you came out and 22 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: talked about it, even though you got some pretty heavy 23 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,200 Speaker 1: pushback on not talking about it. I did. 24 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 2: I became a whistleblower in twenty twenty three, almost three 25 00:01:22,600 --> 00:01:28,960 Speaker 2: years ago to the date, and this case both doesn't 26 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 2: shock me at all, but also really saddens me in 27 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:36,560 Speaker 2: that we are now at the point where I believe 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 2: there's going to be hundreds, if not thousands, of more 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,600 Speaker 2: cases very similar to hers. 30 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: So what do you think happens now? We saw that 31 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: in the UK they kind of backed away from surgeries. 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: Now I think even our own Plastic Surgery Association has said, 33 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: you know what, maybe this is better for people who 34 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:58,480 Speaker 1: are over nineteen years old. What do you think this 35 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:03,920 Speaker 1: means for DOTS who performed these surgeries on young kids? 36 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: So a couple things. 37 00:02:05,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 2: Yes, the American Society of Plastic Surgeons announced within the 38 00:02:10,200 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 2: same week of this ruling that they have changed their 39 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 2: recommendations that no longer under the age of nineteen should 40 00:02:17,120 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 2: there be surgeries performed in regards to gender. I'll say 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: that I don't know that they said that it's good 42 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:26,440 Speaker 2: for people over the age of nineteen, but simply that 43 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: they don't have enough evidence. There's no good quality evidence 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: to do this on kids. What I also think is 45 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:37,880 Speaker 2: that this doesn't mean that they have walked back or 46 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 2: said the surgeries that might have been performed they're absolutely 47 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 2: opposed to. But what I think it tells us is 48 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 2: that we are now seeing a shift in the societies 49 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: who used to agree with this are now publicly coming 50 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:00,440 Speaker 2: out and saying no longer do they do. So that's 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:04,839 Speaker 2: a huge change. This is a huge change for one 52 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:09,160 Speaker 2: of the American medical societies to do this, But they 53 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 2: should have done it years ago. The evidence to support 54 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 2: this wasn't there years ago. And really this is demonstrating 55 00:03:19,520 --> 00:03:27,040 Speaker 2: that are sometimes our American groups of doctors wait until 56 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,760 Speaker 2: they have to to do the right thing. So I 57 00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:33,600 Speaker 2: really think that they should have come to these conclusions 58 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 2: years ago, not waiting until we see lawsuits and not 59 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,360 Speaker 2: waiting until the international consensus is completely collapsing. 60 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 1: It was kind of hidden though, it was like this 61 00:03:44,600 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: is a rare thing. There's certain times when these kids 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: end up in this situation and you know, it's just 63 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: like any other anomaly. You know, this kid was born 64 00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:57,320 Speaker 1: in the wrong body, and there's not really these surgeries 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 1: going on. This is incredibly rare. So I think that 66 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: for some of us who thought maybe it's not as rare, 67 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: or maybe it's too soon, or how does a child 68 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:08,360 Speaker 1: you know, we started hearing about kids that are four 69 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 1: years old that were, oh, they have to be transitioned. 70 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: We're going, how do they actually know? Is this really? 71 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 1: Is there really science behind this? But a lot of 72 00:04:18,720 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: us were told it's none of your business, it's not 73 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 1: that common. How did you what did you see at 74 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: the gender clinic? What did you see that made you go, 75 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: this is not okay? 76 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,599 Speaker 2: So you're absolutely right. I think for a long time 77 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 2: a lot of just normal Americans thought this doesn't line up. 78 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: But we were definitely being told, oh no, the doctor's 79 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: got this. You know, the science backs this up. What 80 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: I saw directly in the gender center was that the 81 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: evidence was not clear, but also that we were harming 82 00:04:47,760 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 2: our patients. And so what I was seeing was patients 83 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 2: that I was being told and their families were being told, 84 00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:59,480 Speaker 2: start on this medical pathway, puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, 85 00:04:59,520 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: and some I'm surgery in minors, and this would treat 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:06,320 Speaker 2: these kids. They would make their mental health better, It 87 00:05:06,360 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 2: would make them less suicidal, it would help them align 88 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: with whatever their internal gender was. It just didn't work. 89 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 2: I just simply saw patients who are not getting better, 90 00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 2: they were getting worse. But I also saw a lot 91 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,640 Speaker 2: of families who were being completely torn apart. Dads who 92 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 2: didn't agree and didn't want their kids to put on 93 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,600 Speaker 2: these treatments, moms who would then go divorce dads and 94 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 2: fight in custody battles overdoing these things. It was basically 95 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:42,800 Speaker 2: just devastating what I was participating in doing to families 96 00:05:42,800 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 2: and kids. And then the longer I was there, we 97 00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:49,760 Speaker 2: started getting patients coming back to us and saying, this 98 00:05:49,960 --> 00:05:52,680 Speaker 2: was not right for me. You hurt me, You should 99 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: not have put me on this. A lot of those 100 00:05:55,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: individuals call themselves detransitioners, but we saw them, you know, 101 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 2: popping back up in clinic, or they would just disappear, 102 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 2: and we would try to see where did they go, 103 00:06:08,000 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 2: Why didn't they come for their follow up. We were 104 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:13,720 Speaker 2: learning that they had felt like we had harmed them, 105 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: and that's not proper medicine. We were not following good 106 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 2: medical ethics. 107 00:06:20,120 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: Do you think that you talked about the puberty blockers 108 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:29,359 Speaker 1: but also the surgeries the puberty blockers I always found 109 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: interesting because this isn't changing your gender, it's stopping you 110 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: from having your body grow. I mean, these are changes 111 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: everybody's body goes through, but it's not just changes for gender. 112 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: It actually does a lot to strengthen your bones, to 113 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,680 Speaker 1: change your hormones, to make you stronger, to make you larger, 114 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:55,080 Speaker 1: to have all a lot of your growth and even 115 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: your mental growth has to do with your body going 116 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:03,159 Speaker 1: through puberty. Do you think that those were also, I 117 00:07:03,200 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: mean almost, I have to say experimental at this point. 118 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: They absolutely were. 119 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 2: When they started being used in the United States, they 120 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: were based on a very small number of studies that 121 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:18,560 Speaker 2: were completed in Europe. It jumped over to the US 122 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: and we rolled this out is what it was called 123 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 2: the standard of care. We acted like it had come 124 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: clean through experimental trials and it had great evidence behind it, 125 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 2: and that it had been replicated and that it was 126 00:07:32,040 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 2: safe to do in the vast majority of patients. That 127 00:07:34,920 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: was not true. This is a real medical research, medical 128 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 2: ethics scandal that happened within our lifetime. Puberty blockers are 129 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:52,280 Speaker 2: blocking normal human development. We now understand that puberty blocking 130 00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 2: in the way that is used for gender care. Not 131 00:07:56,000 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: only has those risks of harm for bone for health, 132 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: but it also simply doesn't really work. It doesn't decrease 133 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:11,480 Speaker 2: the distress around whatever gender is that we were told 134 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 2: that this was treating that. When we say there's no 135 00:08:14,480 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 2: good evidence, what we're saying is that the experiment was 136 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:24,080 Speaker 2: if we give this to somebody who's experiencing distress around 137 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:28,040 Speaker 2: their body, then that distress will go away. And there 138 00:08:28,120 --> 00:08:31,720 Speaker 2: simply is no good quality evidence to show that that 139 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,720 Speaker 2: hypothesis is even holding true. And we're hurting people in 140 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:39,319 Speaker 2: the process by giving them these experimental drugs. 141 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: What do you see? What was the outcome when you 142 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:45,800 Speaker 1: say we were hurting people? What were people coming back 143 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: and saying. 144 00:08:48,000 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: So one of the biggest premises behind this is we 145 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 2: were going to help your mental health. 146 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:55,680 Speaker 1: And some of. 147 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 2: The cases that I really struggled with seeing was we 148 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 2: would have a child who was on maybe one anti 149 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:09,240 Speaker 2: anxiety medication, still going to school, having some anxiety depression, 150 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:12,760 Speaker 2: but still basically functioning, and then we put them on 151 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 2: a pubity blocker, and I saw that exact same patient 152 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: now on five psychotropic medications. I had one patient then 153 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 2: go from sometimes having suicidal thoughts to the parent calling 154 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 2: me that they were on the roof of the house 155 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 2: threatening to jump off. This is not showing benefit, it 156 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: was harm. I also had patients who physically were harmed. 157 00:09:39,760 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 2: These are not good treatments on the body. We take 158 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 2: a body that's physically healthy and we put it into 159 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,319 Speaker 2: a hormonal state of being dysregulated. We saw patients whose 160 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 2: blood chemistries got worse, who were developing pre diabetes, who 161 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,160 Speaker 2: were becoming obese, who were having a lot of medical 162 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:02,280 Speaker 2: complications based on something we were telling them was somehow 163 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 2: treating this, you know, mental health distress within the body 164 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:12,240 Speaker 2: that in all you know, it really doesn't exist. You 165 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: can't be born in the wrong body. It's just it's 166 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 2: not even a real medical concept. 167 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,160 Speaker 1: When you said, you said something at the beginning, I 168 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:23,559 Speaker 1: want to go back to that, because you said they're 169 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: coming out and they're saying that they don't know that 170 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,920 Speaker 1: this is or that they haven't said that this is 171 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: unhealthy for people under nineteen, but they haven't said it's 172 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: healthy for people over either. You made a point that 173 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,040 Speaker 1: it's not. They haven't said that this is a good 174 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: idea to do. No matter what we've actually heard, some 175 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: really horrible stories about trans trans women. I'm trying to 176 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: make sure I get this right. They have had their 177 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: genitals cut off and they so they went from having 178 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: a peace as to having a vagina, and that having 179 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 1: some really terrible lifelong consequences. And honestly, when you read 180 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: those stories, they're not few. It's not unusual. It's like 181 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 1: a very challenging thing to get right. It seems like 182 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: it because it's not supposed to work that way. These 183 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,720 Speaker 1: people deal with a situation the rest of their life 184 00:11:25,760 --> 00:11:28,160 Speaker 1: that would make you want to kill yourself. I mean, 185 00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: these are really horrible side effects. What do you think 186 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: about this for older people? 187 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 2: It's an excellent question. Right now, most of the conversation 188 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 2: in the United States is around stopping this in children. 189 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 2: So right now about half of our states have bands 190 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: so that kids are not put on puberty blockers, cross 191 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: sex hormones, or surgeries, but half of our states are 192 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 2: still allowing this for children. Right now, I am intensely 193 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:00,680 Speaker 2: focused on making sure this doesn't happen to kids. But 194 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 2: exactly what you said, there is actually not a lot 195 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 2: of quality evidence that this helps adults either, and those 196 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 2: surgeries have some of the highest complication rates known in surgery, 197 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,400 Speaker 2: upwards of seventy percent of surgeries on individuals genitals for 198 00:12:19,480 --> 00:12:23,360 Speaker 2: this will go wrong and have major complications that need 199 00:12:23,400 --> 00:12:28,200 Speaker 2: lifelong revisions. We don't support this in any age, but 200 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 2: it becomes really trick and when we talk about do 201 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,719 Speaker 2: adults have autonomy over their body? Do they have the 202 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 2: right to harm their own body? And do we have 203 00:12:39,520 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 2: a system in place where we are collectively paying for 204 00:12:44,000 --> 00:12:49,160 Speaker 2: that through pooled insurance, through Medicaid or medicare, do we 205 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 2: regulate doctors? These become really trickly ethical questions and adults 206 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:59,040 Speaker 2: that right now, we are intensely focused on the kids, 207 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: and I think we will see this conversation evolve into 208 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,200 Speaker 2: the medical ethics for adults. 209 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,080 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 210 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. I think for the kids, you 211 00:13:13,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: really say, especially as a parent, when you raise your 212 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: own children, you go, my gosh, my kids go through 213 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 1: so many different phases they And it's funny because my 214 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: twelve year old said to me, probably I don't know, 215 00:13:27,040 --> 00:13:30,600 Speaker 1: six months ago, she was like, man, I am really 216 00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:33,040 Speaker 1: starting to She's always been kind of the tomboy of 217 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: the family. She's like I'm really starting to like dresses 218 00:13:36,679 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: and be interested in makeup, and I feel like I'm 219 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: really my personality is really changing. And I thought, you know, 220 00:13:43,880 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 1: we do. We do, And that's actually part of going 221 00:13:48,320 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: through puberty, which is horrible for all of us. I mean, legitimately, 222 00:13:52,600 --> 00:13:54,800 Speaker 1: that is one conversation I don't know why we don't 223 00:13:54,840 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: have with some of these kids. It's like, yeah, this 224 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,439 Speaker 1: is it sucks. 225 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:03,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, is a challenge, but it's also a rite of passage. 226 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:06,440 Speaker 2: It's how we learn to be resilient. It's how we 227 00:14:06,559 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 2: learn to understand ourselves better too. Going through something challenging 228 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,120 Speaker 2: and difficult is part of what makes us human, but 229 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 2: it also makes us stronger. And one of the things 230 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 2: that I've asked a number of people who you know, 231 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,080 Speaker 2: fall on the opposite side of this as me, is 232 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:24,160 Speaker 2: do children ever change their mind? And if we can 233 00:14:24,200 --> 00:14:27,520 Speaker 2: recognize that children change their mind, then we should not 234 00:14:27,640 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: be putting children through irreversible changes to their body that 235 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:35,280 Speaker 2: will affect their bodies for their lifetime, affect their fertility. 236 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 2: We're taking things away from kids that they don't even 237 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 2: understand what they're losing. 238 00:14:39,560 --> 00:14:42,880 Speaker 1: Well, that's the other thing I think. I mean Honestly, 239 00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: we are going through a conversation like this right now 240 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 1: with one of my kids about's she is unusually tiny, 241 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: and so there's like, Okay, we can do a test 242 00:14:52,920 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: to see if she needs growth hormone and what does 243 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:59,240 Speaker 1: that look like. And there's this, you know, there's a 244 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: dis a discussion in my own head that's like, she 245 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: doesn't want to do this test because it sucks, you know, 246 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 1: it's hurts, it's painful. I don't want to do the test. 247 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: But I'm like, she's also twelve. She doesn't understand that 248 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: she could be really tiny the rest of her life 249 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,680 Speaker 1: and struggle because of that. And I'm the adult. I 250 00:15:17,800 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: know what the rest of her like. I know she's 251 00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:22,640 Speaker 1: going to get older and have these challenges and this 252 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:26,240 Speaker 1: is now my responsibility. But in the state of Michigan, 253 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,920 Speaker 1: it's also not my responsibility because I've parental consent is 254 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,080 Speaker 1: taken out of my hands at twelve. 255 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 2: You know. 256 00:15:33,640 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: Now obviously at home we have this discussion, but she 257 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 1: her medical records and her medical choices are up to 258 00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: her at the age of twelve, which seems insane to 259 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:48,240 Speaker 1: me because if we don't go through like this is 260 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: just a test and we're going to do this, and 261 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: we're going to get it done. She would automatically make 262 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: the decision not to because she doesn't see. She can't see, 263 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: her frontal cortex is not fully formed yet. She can't 264 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: understand the consequences of that, you know. And I think 265 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: about that situation as compared to a parent who's gonna 266 00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 1: say you're gonna have a different voice, your your the 267 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: way your body is going to form is going to 268 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: be different. I mean, these boys that go on estrogen 269 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: and you talk about obesity and you talk about diabetes, 270 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: and you can see because it's their shape is different 271 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:32,400 Speaker 1: on that and a woman's shape is softer, but our 272 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: bodies are built for that. I mean, it's like without 273 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:37,280 Speaker 1: a medical degree, you can see it and you think 274 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:39,320 Speaker 1: this is this can't be okay. 275 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 2: You just also touched on a point that I find 276 00:16:43,920 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 2: really important for everyone, even if you have no one 277 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: in your family that's ever questioned their gender. We have 278 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:56,520 Speaker 2: seen an erosion of parental rights in medical care. So 279 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: in states, I think it's started first that you know, 280 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,320 Speaker 2: coming down to sixteen, and we were saying girls could 281 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:05,400 Speaker 2: consent to birth control on their own, or could consent 282 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 2: to things down to twelve on their own. But I 283 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: hear from parents all over the country who can't even 284 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 2: get into their children's medical records anymore because they have 285 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,359 Speaker 2: set it up so that the medical records are locked 286 00:17:18,359 --> 00:17:20,959 Speaker 2: out when they become an adolescent. You can't even get 287 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,359 Speaker 2: into EPIC. You can't even get into the systems to 288 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: see what's going on for your kids. So it's interesting 289 00:17:26,280 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: that TRANS for a lot of people seems like, oh, 290 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,479 Speaker 2: and it's an issue. It affects a small group of people, 291 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: But it's because of this intersection where TRANS is also 292 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 2: pushed on things like parental rights. It's pushed on consent. 293 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,360 Speaker 2: A lot of the states that we are still fighting 294 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 2: to make sure that they're not putting kids on puberty blockers, 295 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: cross sex hormones, or surgery anymore, have lowered the age 296 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 2: of consent down to sixteen or fourteen in some states 297 00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:55,119 Speaker 2: that kids can go on irreversible changes on their own. 298 00:17:55,720 --> 00:18:00,880 Speaker 2: So what I continue to remind people is that trans 299 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 2: might affect a small group of people, but the parental 300 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 2: rights aspect affects every single parent in this country, and 301 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 2: it's something that everybody needs to be paying attention to. 302 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,679 Speaker 2: Even if you only have a toddler right now. We 303 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:14,879 Speaker 2: need to be paying attention to what has happened for 304 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:17,359 Speaker 2: us in taking care of our own adolescents. I have 305 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 2: two teens. I know exactly what you're talking about with 306 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:21,080 Speaker 2: those medical records. 307 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 1: So you said the word irreversible, which I find interesting 308 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: because we were told it's reversible. 309 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 2: We were told that puberty blockers were reversible, and scientifically, 310 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 2: if you're on it for a short period of time, 311 00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,439 Speaker 2: a lot of it is we simply don't know. We 312 00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,959 Speaker 2: didn't do those studies ahead of time. We don't know 313 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: how it affects brain development. But what we do know 314 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,800 Speaker 2: is that kids that are put on puberty blockers ninety 315 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 2: eight percent of the time will go on to cross 316 00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:53,680 Speaker 2: sex hormones. It is not shown to be a time 317 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,879 Speaker 2: to think or a pause. It really has simply shown 318 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: it's basically once you're on that, it's like getting on 319 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: a highway. Once you cross that thresholder and you're on 320 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,920 Speaker 2: the puberty blocker, you're on the highway with no exit ramp. 321 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 2: It's very hard to get back off of this pathway 322 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 2: once kids are put on it. 323 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: And obviously the surgeries they say, well, I mean some 324 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: of those surgeries are definitely not reversible. And I've heard 325 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:21,040 Speaker 1: people say, well, you know, if you chuck decided to 326 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,119 Speaker 1: change your mind, you can get breast in plants. And 327 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: I find it interesting because I'm a I ad a 328 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:30,639 Speaker 1: double mistectomy myself as a cancer survivor. And it's also 329 00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,840 Speaker 1: interesting because they don't they don't even tell you everything 330 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,119 Speaker 1: that's going to happen to you when you have that surgery. 331 00:19:37,280 --> 00:19:39,400 Speaker 1: When you have cancer, you know, they tell you we're 332 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 1: going to cut through your nerves. You may get some 333 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 1: feeling back, there's going to be areas you won't get 334 00:19:43,960 --> 00:19:47,919 Speaker 1: feeling back. There's going to be things that you that'll 335 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,479 Speaker 1: be different, and you're gonna look different, You're gonna have scars, 336 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: and it's all going to change. But when you have cancer, 337 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,840 Speaker 1: you're like, Okay, well that's the alternative to death, you know, 338 00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: so I'll take that. But then I was reading about 339 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: these patients that have had this done that are transgender 340 00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,119 Speaker 1: patients that have had this done, that they've had the 341 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 1: double misseectomy, and they were talking about these apps, and 342 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 1: it struck me. I'm like, oh, I do have that. 343 00:20:12,880 --> 00:20:17,159 Speaker 1: There's a section in my back that regularly feels I 344 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: don't know how to describe it. It's like pins and needles, 345 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: but burning more. And it I mean regularly, I can 346 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: tell you probably four times a week I sit in 347 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: the car and I can feel as the back of 348 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: the seat of the car touches my back. It's like 349 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:37,960 Speaker 1: like someone scratching. I don't know how to describe it. 350 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 1: It's an awful nails on the chalkboard type feeling, which 351 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:47,600 Speaker 1: I know the alternative for me, But it breaks my 352 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: heart to think of these kids that did this, not 353 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 1: knowing that they could have breastfed their children. They could 354 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,119 Speaker 1: have You know, this wasn't necessary. 355 00:20:56,800 --> 00:21:00,159 Speaker 2: Yep, you're absolutely right. It wasn't medically necessary. And what 356 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:04,400 Speaker 2: I find so powerful in your own story is that 357 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 2: we as adults can recognize when something truly is life 358 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 2: or death, when we don't have a choice about having 359 00:21:14,240 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 2: to move forward with something like that. I think, and 360 00:21:17,560 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 2: I hope that it at least ground you when you're 361 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 2: having that sensation, when you're having those long term side effects. 362 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:26,680 Speaker 2: I think as an adult, we can process that and say, 363 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 2: I go through this because I know this is what 364 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: saved my life. But it's so hard to imagine that 365 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 2: a sixteen year old would be going through things like 366 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 2: that for what was essentially that her and her mom 367 00:21:38,480 --> 00:21:41,440 Speaker 2: were lied to that she was going to commit suicide 368 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:43,639 Speaker 2: if she didn't do this, and that's just simply not 369 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 2: the truth. And I'm so grateful that she won the 370 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:51,880 Speaker 2: award that she did. She received two million dollars, four 371 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 2: hundred thousand of that they said was for future, for 372 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 2: future things, for future follow up, like the things that 373 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: you experience. But I don't know that we should have 374 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,000 Speaker 2: ever done this, and I don't know that you can 375 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 2: put a price tag on what we. 376 00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,280 Speaker 1: Did to this young woman. So what do you think doctors? 377 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: Were there ever doctors in your clinic that we're starting 378 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:13,399 Speaker 1: to question it? 379 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: Myself, I was, I became an essence of squeaky wheel. 380 00:22:20,040 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 2: I started, you know, just saying this doesn't this isn't 381 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 2: lighting up, this isn't lining up. I will say that 382 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,560 Speaker 2: in my own center, myself and the nurse had a 383 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 2: lot of conversations where we found ourselves in agreement that 384 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: this We were questioning a lot together. There were moments 385 00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 2: when our child's psychiatrist also would say, you know this, 386 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,359 Speaker 2: this case doesn't feel right, or this is this is 387 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: something that's questionable. The challenge is is that so many 388 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,919 Speaker 2: of the doctors that are doing this, they're doing this 389 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 2: because they are part of a belief system. And it's 390 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,040 Speaker 2: very hard to change your belief structure, especially when it 391 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 2: tied into things. And I know you said at the beginning, 392 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:07,240 Speaker 2: this is not about politics, this is not about those things. 393 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 2: But but for me, I really did have to go 394 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:15,640 Speaker 2: against all of those things that I thought I I 395 00:23:15,680 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: you know, was a part of my my sense of self, 396 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 2: that I was a liberal, that I'm a lesbian, that 397 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:23,960 Speaker 2: this is, you know, part of my community. I had 398 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:26,399 Speaker 2: to go against all of those things in order to 399 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 2: do the right thing. And I simply don't know that 400 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,119 Speaker 2: that's something that everybody is going to be able to 401 00:23:33,359 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 2: muster the ability to do that. 402 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,840 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick commercial break. We'll continue next on 403 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:43,679 Speaker 1: the Tutor Dixon podcast. In the medical field, if you 404 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: are a doctor and you you have you have to 405 00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: be able to rationalize and see that there are plenty 406 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 1: of people coming back now and saying that this isn't right. 407 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 1: And as a doctor, I mean, you have to kind 408 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: of know that you're experimenting, don't you Are you just 409 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: so into that mindset of this is going to help. 410 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 2: I did once challenge one of the physicians that I 411 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,280 Speaker 2: worked with, and I said, listen, you know, I feel 412 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:12,199 Speaker 2: like we're hurting these patients. And the response was, I know, 413 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 2: but what do you want me to do about it? 414 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,159 Speaker 2: And it almost become that it was such like a 415 00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 2: we had become such a machine where the patient comes in, 416 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 2: this is the pathway, this is what you do. I 417 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 2: think that that doctor couldn't even recognize a way that 418 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,719 Speaker 2: we could stop or pause without shutting down the whole 419 00:24:30,800 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: mechanism itself. And that's why I came to believe in 420 00:24:35,800 --> 00:24:39,960 Speaker 2: bands that nobody should be put through this. But yeah, 421 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:42,240 Speaker 2: these doctors have a lot. 422 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:43,520 Speaker 1: We have a whole. 423 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 2: Medical system who's going to have a lot of ethical 424 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,399 Speaker 2: fallout from this, not only the doctors. Where were the 425 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: hospital administrators? Where was the legal department? Where was the 426 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: ethics department? Why did it take me in one of 427 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 2: the you know, in essence, you know, I was on 428 00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:03,800 Speaker 2: the multidisciplinary team, but I was one of the lower 429 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: ranked members on that team. Why did it fall in 430 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,760 Speaker 2: me to blow the whistle? There were people, and there 431 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: still are people who are in much higher places of position. 432 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm waiting for the American Academy Pediatrics. The director of 433 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: the American acad Pediatrics, I believe right now should be 434 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:24,840 Speaker 2: one of the bravest people and step forward and say, 435 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:27,320 Speaker 2: you're right, the evidence doesn't support this, and we're going 436 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,959 Speaker 2: to acknowledge that we did something wrong. The Democratic Party, 437 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 2: we did something wrong. It's time to be the grown 438 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 2: ups and acknowledge that. 439 00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: Well. It is interesting because I noticed that when it 440 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 1: started to become a political issue where people because once 441 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: it's a political issue, then people start pulling on it 442 00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: right and they start talking to people and they go, oh, actually, 443 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: the country is not with us on this one. And 444 00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: then we actually had hospital systems in Michigan that just 445 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: shut down their gender clinics. They and they kind of 446 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,919 Speaker 1: did it quietly. It was under the radar and just 447 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:07,320 Speaker 1: it was shut down. And then there were some people 448 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 1: who I think were true believers, you know, that came 449 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: out like how could they shut this down? And they 450 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 1: wouldn't even acknowledge it, They wouldn't even talk about it. 451 00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:18,760 Speaker 1: It made me think there's something that they know. And 452 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:21,200 Speaker 1: at that point I thought they must have had enough 453 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,959 Speaker 1: people come back that they do see lawsuits in the future. 454 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:29,359 Speaker 1: So I'll just end on this. This is obviously a 455 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: big deal that the law and that the judge in 456 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: this case said we're going to find for the woman 457 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,480 Speaker 1: who was harmed. That is a big deal. SE's a precedent. 458 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: Do you think that there are going to be a 459 00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: not just more extreme cases that we see through this, 460 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: but do you think that there's going to be doctors 461 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:52,159 Speaker 1: who are just going to go, oh my gosh, I 462 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: can't do this anymore. I can't have this kind of 463 00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: financial disaster hanging over my head. Yes. 464 00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 2: So I do believe we're going to see more lawsuits. 465 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:07,000 Speaker 2: They're about twenty five already filed. I hope that we 466 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,159 Speaker 2: will see more doctors who say something publicly. But what 467 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:13,919 Speaker 2: I think is probably most likely going to happen is 468 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,760 Speaker 2: that most people who participated in this are going to 469 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:19,960 Speaker 2: quietly walk away. They're going to pretend like they never 470 00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 2: took part. A whole swath of our country is going 471 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,679 Speaker 2: to act like they were never in support of this, 472 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 2: and they're going to quietly try to memory hold that. 473 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: And what I feel like we can't do is we 474 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 2: can't do that to these kids and families we have. 475 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 2: That's what I was just going to say, these poor kids, 476 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,640 Speaker 2: we have to at least acknowledge that this occurred and 477 00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,480 Speaker 2: not make it so not only did we harm them, 478 00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 2: but to harm them on the back end to and 479 00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:47,639 Speaker 2: pretend like it never happened is almost worse. 480 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,159 Speaker 1: Gosh, I would not have thought about it until you 481 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: said it that way. I'm like, there's a whole generation 482 00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:59,399 Speaker 1: of kids, and too many of them, Yeah, had this happen, 483 00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: and then they're just left out there. It's like it 484 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 1: really is like experimentation. 485 00:28:04,840 --> 00:28:05,840 Speaker 2: Yeah on children. 486 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,439 Speaker 1: We're so grateful to you for what you did, for 487 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,719 Speaker 1: standing up for these kids. Like I said, as a parent, 488 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,440 Speaker 1: every medical decision is hard, and you have this innate 489 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,280 Speaker 1: trust for your physician. That's the thing that also I 490 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 1: cannot stand about this is because especially having gone through 491 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:28,240 Speaker 1: a medical event myself, it's like, you don't know this. 492 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:30,960 Speaker 1: I didn't study this. I don't know what is happening 493 00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: inside of my biology and what my body is doing 494 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,600 Speaker 1: and what's wrong with me. I have to trust the 495 00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: person who is the expert. And so many parents are 496 00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: now going to go I was misled, but I had 497 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,800 Speaker 1: no choice. That's who I trusted, and I believed in 498 00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: them and Without you, I don't know where we would be. 499 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: So Jamie Reid, thank you so much for doing this, 500 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:53,520 Speaker 1: and thank you for coming on the podcast today. 501 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:56,720 Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me absolutely. 502 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: And thank you all for joining the Tutor Dixon podcast. 503 00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: You know you can find the podcast us wherever you 504 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 1: get podcasts, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or you 505 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:07,120 Speaker 1: can watch it on Rumble or YouTube at Tutor Dixon, 506 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: but make sure you join us. Thank you for listening, 507 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,520 Speaker 1: and have a blessed day.