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Speaker 1: Welcome to River Cafe Table for a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Adam I Studios. I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: a recipe of yours, the Summer Minister a name, and

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Speaker 1: it serves ten well might serve ten some inches anyway, finish.

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Speaker 1: All My guests all love food, but Nigella Lawcent does

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Speaker 1: more than love food. Apart from her extraordinary children with

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Speaker 1: John Diamond Bruno and Cosima, food is the true focus

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Speaker 1: of her life. I cannot remember the day I met

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Speaker 1: Nigella because that would be like remembering the day I

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Speaker 1: met my sister or my cousin. For Nigella is family together.

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Speaker 1: We've been through sadness and happiness and celebrations of both.

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Speaker 1: Nigella and I might go for months without seeing each other,

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Speaker 1: but I know for a fact that she would be

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Speaker 1: the first person on my bed and I would be

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Speaker 1: the first person on hers. In a crisis. We would

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Speaker 1: lay in each other's arms, and then we would go

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen and eat. Quite simply, she's close to

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Speaker 1: my heart, and quite simply I love her. I love

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Speaker 1: you so moving, Ruthie. Right, and now I'm going to

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Speaker 1: read the Summer Minister name. So two garlic cloves one

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Speaker 1: small head of celery chopped, three small red onions chopped,

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Speaker 1: four tablespoons olive oil, one kilo of thin asparagus, six

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Speaker 1: hundred grams of fresh peas, six hundred grams of fresh

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Speaker 1: young broad beans, four hundred and fifty grams of young

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Speaker 1: green beans trimmed and chopped. One liter of chicken stock,

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Speaker 1: half a bunch of fresh basil leaves, finely chopped, three

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Speaker 1: hundred mills of double cream in a saucepan for the garlic, celery,

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Speaker 1: and onions. Gently in the olive oil until soft. Divide

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Speaker 1: the asparagus, peas, broad beans, and green beans between two bowls.

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Speaker 1: Add one bowl full to the onion mixture and cook,

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Speaker 1: stirring to coat with oil for five minutes. Season Cover

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Speaker 1: with the chicken stock and bring to the boils. Simmer

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Speaker 1: for fifteen minutes. Add the remaining vegetables and cook for

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Speaker 1: a further ten minutes. Remove from the heat and stir

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Speaker 1: in the basil and cream. Cool to room temperature. Then

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Speaker 1: serve with parmesan and pesto. M hmm, thank you so

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Speaker 1: so yeah so of all the recipes, you say it

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Speaker 1: reminds you of the River Cafe. Well I feel choosing

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Speaker 1: any recipe is a source of anguish because there's so

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Speaker 1: many I could choose, and I think I remember having

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Speaker 1: this god. I don't know when it would have been

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Speaker 1: the eighties, yep, late eighties, might have even been on

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Speaker 1: our first menu. I think it was really one of

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Speaker 1: the first and it was like it was both like

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Speaker 1: nothing else I'd ever eatn and yet so familiar. There's

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Speaker 1: something as well, I think it says so many interesting

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Speaker 1: things about food and eating that the eating at room temperature.

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Speaker 1: I think so many people eat food too hot and

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Speaker 1: too cold, and room temperature which is something the Italians

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Speaker 1: really get. It allows you to taste flavors so vibrantly.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it's maybe there's something about it that reminds me

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Speaker 1: of child and not that I ate this, but the

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Speaker 1: that although it's Italian, those the sweet starchiness of the

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Speaker 1: peas somehow reminds me of an English summer as well.

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Speaker 1: And I think that a lot of our favorite food

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Speaker 1: does go back to, very often the food that we

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Speaker 1: did have as a child that has a memory, And

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Speaker 1: did you grow up with it as your mother cooked?

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Speaker 1: She was a good thing about your mother. My mother

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Speaker 1: was a rather fascinating but I want saying difficulties is

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Speaker 1: not a very compassionate way of describing it. She married

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Speaker 1: very young, she was nineteen and had her first child

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Speaker 1: at twenties, my older brother. She felt things very deeply

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Speaker 1: but didn't always express it, so would erupt quite a bit.

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Speaker 1: And you know, she was fantastically impatient. And I one

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Speaker 1: of the jobs we had to do, my sister Thomasina,

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Speaker 1: we used to have to make mayonnaise together and one

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Speaker 1: of us would whisk and one would pour the oil.

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Speaker 1: And whoever was whisking, you know, you weren't whisking fast enough.

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Speaker 1: And whoever was pooring, you weren't slowly. And the tension,

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Speaker 1: you know, So it's so difficult because I remember what

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Speaker 1: I learned, and I remember being in the kitchen with

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Speaker 1: with fondness and gratitude, and yet it would be so

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Speaker 1: unfaithful to the truth if I didn't say it was

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Speaker 1: also a source of great tension. I mean, it was frightening,

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Speaker 1: but but I think that. But I think I did

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Speaker 1: learn a lot. And she was a very spontaneous cook.

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Speaker 1: But imagine being nineteen and twenty and having to embrace

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Speaker 1: motherhood and domestic life and cook. Do you think she

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Speaker 1: liked cooking. Did she like it? Didn't I associate my

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Speaker 1: mother with food, and yet she had a very troubled

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Speaker 1: relationship and had eating disorders, which I didn't really I

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Speaker 1: think I didn't really take on board until I was

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Speaker 1: in my teens, I think, and I don't know when

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Speaker 1: it started. And it was difficult because it it was

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Speaker 1: really a repudiation of something that gave her pleasure. And

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Speaker 1: that the heartbreaking thing is, you know, she she died

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Speaker 1: when she was forty eight, and she hit pretty quickly

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Speaker 1: because she got diagnosed. She didn't get diagnosed. I was

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Speaker 1: told by the doctor three weeks before she died. I

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Speaker 1: didn't tell learn until two weeks because I was waiting

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Speaker 1: a bit just to get it, you know, more tests

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Speaker 1: and things um. And she said it was the first

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Speaker 1: time being terminally ill was the first time she could

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Speaker 1: eat with our anxiety or guilt. I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: and I think that. So on the one hand, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've learned everything about what cooking is from her, not

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Speaker 1: everything I've learned from you. I've learned from Annadele can't

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Speaker 1: ever learned from Claudia Rodan. But I also learned what

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Speaker 1: pat I didn't want to go down, and it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that one was your father? Didn't you ever cook? He

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Speaker 1: didn't occasionally lay you're on. He would make his own

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Speaker 1: breakfast breakfast, which I think is quite an old fashioned

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Speaker 1: male thing to do. That somehow they don't feel, you know,

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Speaker 1: cooking eggs is too much of a dent to their

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Speaker 1: dignity because he you know, we talk a lot about,

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Speaker 1: you know, the generational men in the kitchen, men coming

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Speaker 1: in the kitchen men. Very often Americans will say their

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Speaker 1: father never cooked, but did the barbecue, yes, or that

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Speaker 1: that somehow grilling need. But but even so, I think

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Speaker 1: he would only make his breakfast. Really, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: But you know, what about your brother? Did your mother

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Speaker 1: concentrate on teaching him or no, he didn't get taught,

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Speaker 1: although I did teach him how to make you know,

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Speaker 1: home days. She loves. But he's a wonderful eater. And

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Speaker 1: I sometimes think, you know, not everyone can be a cook,

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Speaker 1: but good eaters are are valuable. The other night you

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Speaker 1: were here with Bruno, And I've seen you here with

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Speaker 1: children and family and little kids and big kids and

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Speaker 1: and students come here and have just one pasta or whatever.

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Speaker 1: But was it more of a special occasion for your fidays, birthday, birthdays,

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Speaker 1: occasionally for a treat. There was a Chinese restaurant King's

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Speaker 1: Road called Choice Choice. Yeah, you know, and I remember that,

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Speaker 1: But it was I was. I found meals difficult. It's

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Speaker 1: an odd thing, or family meals. You know. I was

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Speaker 1: clumsy and I'd always knocked something over, and I found

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Speaker 1: myself slightly inhibited within a family group. I came into

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Speaker 1: my own later, and I think as well, I didn't

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Speaker 1: really enjoy eating. Well, I didn't enjoy meals a lot

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Speaker 1: until I had a bit more control so I could

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Speaker 1: decide what I wanted to eat. And for that reason,

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Speaker 1: you know, a tasting menu is my idea of hell. Also,

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Speaker 1: you went totally didn't. I didn't. It made it such

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Speaker 1: an impression on me, or more than that, it really

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Speaker 1: altered my life in so many ways. Is it after

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Speaker 1: university four? So what happened was I did the in

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Speaker 1: the olden days, you did an entrance exam to go

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Speaker 1: to Oxford. I thought I would like to do German

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Speaker 1: and Italian, so I thought I pretended at the interview

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Speaker 1: that I was going to go to school there, but

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Speaker 1: I didn't. Initially in the year between the gap here,

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Speaker 1: but I didn't, and I just turned up with a

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Speaker 1: school friend and I got a job. We got we

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Speaker 1: had a job share, so we had one woman in

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Speaker 1: Florence and we were chamber maids. And all I would

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Speaker 1: say is, if anyone ever stays in a hotel and

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Speaker 1: wonders whether people try on your clothes and put your

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Speaker 1: center on, yes we do because they you don't leave

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Speaker 1: your clothes on the floor. So you went seventeen, Now

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Speaker 1: I was by then, I was nineteen, I think, just

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Speaker 1: on the car, just about eighteen nineteen. I couldn't say anything.

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Speaker 1: I could say, you know, Mrs Ean has a brown

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Speaker 1: hat or something, and oh, I don't know. It was

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Speaker 1: just terrible, and I was meant to be the one

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Speaker 1: getting us somewhere and I had no idea and I

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Speaker 1: couldn't understand when they answered. So there it was Appenci

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Speaker 1: only run by a married couple who came from Alexo,

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Speaker 1: and they had a song called Leonardo, and they had

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Speaker 1: his mother Lana, living there, and every now and then

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Speaker 1: they go to their farm and she would be left

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Speaker 1: there and we weren't allowed in the kitchen. But the

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Speaker 1: minute they gone, you know, I'd be allowed in the

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Speaker 1: kitchen because she wanted a company, you know, and she

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Speaker 1: was wanted chat and so so I watched her cook

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Speaker 1: and there was something she used to do that. The

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Speaker 1: thing I remember most is that wonderful Italian with a

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Speaker 1: rospief which is almost sort of pop roasted, and I

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Speaker 1: would see a bit the oil, put the garlic in,

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Speaker 1: remove the garlic when it was brown, and the in

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Speaker 1: the north of Italy the idea of leaving lots of

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Speaker 1: garlic was sort of odd. A very small amount of

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Speaker 1: meat which then you know it was called roy when

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Speaker 1: you brown something, sit around that and you know rosmary

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Speaker 1: teeny bit of wine like that and sort of cook

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Speaker 1: it so it was not quite not fried, but not

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Speaker 1: poached really and there's something so enormously different. Again served

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Speaker 1: at room temperature, and she made prey mashed potatoes with

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Speaker 1: I always feel like saying, whenever people go Italians don't

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Speaker 1: use butter. I felt like you should have seen her

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Speaker 1: mashed potatoes. And I think, but again, when you were

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Speaker 1: mentioning about the beef being room temperature, I often think

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Speaker 1: that the only thing that Italians really like temperature is

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Speaker 1: ice cream very cold and pasta very heart I mean

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Speaker 1: I think that's so the otherwise, as you're saying, roastby

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Speaker 1: fish and semi frazy, and they always let my ice

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Speaker 1: foods stay out and I love that. But I think

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Speaker 1: that being in Italy, we didn't have an awful lot

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Speaker 1: of money to spend, and there was a bar I

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Speaker 1: went to, and you could sit at the bar and

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Speaker 1: have a campari soda and you could have a selection

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Speaker 1: of I suppose it was. I suppose they were still Crostini,

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Speaker 1: not blue togeter, but with you could choose different soft cheeses,

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Speaker 1: whether it was it was mozzarella burata, and I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to think which is the other one was? Now it

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Speaker 1: will come to me. There's another one. No, it was

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Speaker 1: creamier um and you had it with stripe of anchovy

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Speaker 1: on top, so wonderful, And I could keep you going,

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Speaker 1: do you know? That would really keep And again I

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Speaker 1: could go to a bar and have a compart. You

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Speaker 1: know that's the difference, isn't it That you considered a

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Speaker 1: bar and have a drink and something to eat. Was

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Speaker 1: going back to Oxford a rude awakening then, when you

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Speaker 1: could only go to a pub, and well I didn't

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Speaker 1: really want to. I didn't what I was going to

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Speaker 1: say about Italy is that I've been very shy, and

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Speaker 1: I mean not at home, more at home or in

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Speaker 1: the adult world a bit. And when I had to

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Speaker 1: speak Italian, because I was speaking a different language, I

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Speaker 1: had to be a different person. I was more valuable,

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Speaker 1: I was less shy, and so I found my voice

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Speaker 1: and that doesn't matter where you find it. I felt

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Speaker 1: that I felt both in the food and a way

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Speaker 1: of being and being with other people, because I think

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's quite difficult when you're adolescent

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Speaker 1: is that people on the whole. This is different. Now

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Speaker 1: I know this Facebook and Instagram, but then people knew

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Speaker 1: you just in the context of your family. And I'm

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Speaker 1: not talking about having a well known father. I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about everyone. So they know your so and so, sister,

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Speaker 1: Oh I know your cousin or didn't I see you there?

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Speaker 1: And that's fine. But somehow to go in to a

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Speaker 1: place and not be, not have all those connections is free,

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Speaker 1: being completely independent, earn your own living, ending for yourself.

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Speaker 1: I can imagine they loved you. I mean I can

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Speaker 1: see you in Italy. I can close my eyes and

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Speaker 1: see you. It was it was if as if I

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Speaker 1: had decided at a young age I wanted to be Italian,

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Speaker 1: and then I sort of proceeded and then did you

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Speaker 1: bring that food back with I did? It may be

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Speaker 1: shocked differently, but you know, it's so difficult because I

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Speaker 1: think it's hard not to love Italy without without being

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Speaker 1: romantic about it. And one shouldn't be because like any country,

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Speaker 1: it has its issues and it's a bit of Nevertheless,

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Speaker 1: I think one is allowed to have places which in

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Speaker 1: reality and symbolically mean a lot in your life. I

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Speaker 1: have such strong memories. I may have memories, I said,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't remember when we met, because I

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Speaker 1: just remember just being in my life and this magnificent

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Speaker 1: woman who you know, combined all of the food and

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Speaker 1: energy and writing and restaurants and and love and love

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Speaker 1: for John, and you know, and I think I might

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Speaker 1: have met John the first time, maybe in the ivy,

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Speaker 1: and he was so funny, you know, he was just

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Speaker 1: so funny and so attractive, gorgeous, not so great and

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Speaker 1: I don't think about it he was, but you know,

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Speaker 1: he tell me what was what was it like? To know?

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Speaker 1: He was a great eater, but he just didn't like

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Speaker 1: an awful lot. He was picky and he remember the

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Speaker 1: first time I cooked for him? Where was that? I

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Speaker 1: think it was in my flat interest to row as

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Speaker 1: part of you. No, it wasn't really, And I think

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Speaker 1: I think we were just friends at that stage. But

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Speaker 1: I thought I would cook something and I think it

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Speaker 1: was based on a Claudia rod And recipe. There was

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Speaker 1: a sort of courgettes with saffron and some sort of

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Speaker 1: sauce and um, and then you made the sauce and

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Speaker 1: you put the the chops auchini around the chicken and

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Speaker 1: don't took one look at it. And he said, no

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Speaker 1: gravy for me, please, And that's I know, and you

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Speaker 1: know he I still think of him that, you know.

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Speaker 1: He his idea. He adored tinned potatoes. I've never seen,

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Speaker 1: I know what new potatoes and tins so their whole

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Speaker 1: little they could. Yes. And his idea of a real

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Speaker 1: treat too was tinned fruit salad with evaporated milk evapp.

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Speaker 1: I mean, but he did. He he had a sweet

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Speaker 1: I guess. I guess he loved talking. He loved talking

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Speaker 1: because I do really endless meals. And remember that big table.

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Speaker 1: You have a big table, And there was a yes,

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Speaker 1: and there was always people, people and eating and I

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Speaker 1: don't do children's food and non children's food. But obviously

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Speaker 1: there is certain things that I would I make that

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Speaker 1: were easier and people liked, and also that thing of

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Speaker 1: sometimes it would just be like an indoor picnic. You know,

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Speaker 1: you can get you know, bread, cheese, ham, salami, tomatoes,

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Speaker 1: and it just really depends. You know, there's so many

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Speaker 1: pleasures around food. And what about the kids eating where

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Speaker 1: they did they cook with you? Did you cook with them? Yes?

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Speaker 1: I always did because I was Yeah, so the kitchen completely.

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Speaker 1: And I remember once going to save my brother when

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Speaker 1: Bruno was very little, when I was cooking and he

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Speaker 1: put his hand. I said careful and he put his

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Speaker 1: hand himself. Yes, and I felt like the most awful person.

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Speaker 1: But actually coming to lunch was a child psychologist, I think.

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Speaker 1: And he went nonsense, The best way to learn about

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Speaker 1: danger is in a safe environment. Much better, he said,

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Speaker 1: he went with his hand in a saucepan. Again, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to ask you also about restaurants. Do you love

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Speaker 1: restaurants or do I love some? I love some zero

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Speaker 1: critic for yeah, it was and well I didn't do

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Speaker 1: lots like people do now. I didn't want a fortnight,

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Speaker 1: and I always felt I was representing the reader, so

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to in a way of voke. And

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Speaker 1: this is when I read a recipe, I'm trying to

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Speaker 1: evoke the feeling of cooking something. I wanted to evoke

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Speaker 1: the experience of being in the restaurant. Not it's not

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Speaker 1: about how chummy you are with the chefs or what

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Speaker 1: you know about a place. It's are you going to

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Speaker 1: have a wonderful time? And the theater of the room

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Speaker 1: and the space and the wonderful ways of a clink

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Speaker 1: of glasses. And I feel like I have less of

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Speaker 1: a less of a restaurant going life than I used to,

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Speaker 1: and that's partly. Sometimes I don't I don't want to

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Speaker 1: be looked at instead of and I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: a bit on show. Not always, but sometimes it depends

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Speaker 1: on how vulnerable or otherwise I might be feeling at

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Speaker 1: any time. But I love going to places I feel

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Speaker 1: at home in and I love seeing you know, people

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Speaker 1: who work there and people that makes because it's about exchange,

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Speaker 1: human connection. As we've said over and over that food

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Speaker 1: is a connection to our history, to our children now,

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Speaker 1: to our lives, to our friends, it also has a comfort.

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Speaker 1: And so I guess my last question to you, as

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Speaker 1: I ask everyone, is a food is a comfort? Is

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Speaker 1: there a food that you go to if you need

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Speaker 1: that if you're hungry, not if you want to impress,

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Speaker 1: but if you need comfort. It's so difficult because I

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Speaker 1: feel like for me, all food is coming, that's a good.

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Speaker 1: So I do feel that you have to single. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess you know my mother's way

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Speaker 1: of cooking chicken, which is a bit like chicken soup,

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Speaker 1: you know, So anything chi can, even brough, is a

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Speaker 1: comfort rice in some moods, I think that generally, I

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Speaker 1: guess I like a lot of people, I think of

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Speaker 1: comfort food as being something sort of carbi. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean bread always. But I think in different moods, all

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Speaker 1: food is a comfort, and I think it's it's just

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Speaker 1: there is such beauty in just the ingredients. And sometimes

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Speaker 1: when you've peeled an onion, the way the skin looks

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Speaker 1: on the shopping board, it's just wonderful. Or I think

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Speaker 1: smell as your great lemon zest and that changes the air.

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Speaker 1: So I feel it reminds you you know you're alive,

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Speaker 1: and you're taking pleasure and to be grateful for that. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful for you, and we're going to go and

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Speaker 1: take comfort and have some lunch in the River Cafe.

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Speaker 1: Comfort and connection and love and lovely nature. I love you, Darlie.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. This holiday season. If you can't come to

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Speaker 1: the River Cafe, the River Cafe will come to you.

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Speaker 1: Our beautiful gift boxes are full of ingredients we cook

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Speaker 1: with and design objects we have in our homes. River

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Speaker 1: Cafe olive oil, Tuscan chocolates, Venetian glasses of Florentine, Christmas

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Speaker 1: cake made in our pastry kitchen, and more. We ship

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Speaker 1: them everywhere. To find out more or to place your order,

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Speaker 1: visit shop the River Cafe dot co dot uk. River

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Speaker 1: Cafe Table for is a production of I Heart Radio

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Speaker 1: and Atomize Studios. For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit

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Speaker 1: the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

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Speaker 1: to your favorite shows