1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 3 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:17,920 Speaker 1: I'm Holly from I'm Tray Stevie Wilson uh and today's 4 00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: topic is one we've actually been asked about a couple 5 00:00:19,760 --> 00:00:21,479 Speaker 1: of times. It's another one that's also been on my 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: list for a long time. I'm kind of trying to 7 00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:25,320 Speaker 1: go back to the ones that I wrote down when 8 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: we first moved on to the podcast as host, that 9 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:29,400 Speaker 1: I was really excited about and then they get lost 10 00:00:29,400 --> 00:00:31,400 Speaker 1: in the shuffle. You know what happened to mine? What 11 00:00:31,760 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: we moved offices in my my white park, got to 12 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: raise the white board with my stuff on I got 13 00:00:36,000 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: a raise. Yeah. So yeah, I'm going back to some 14 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,879 Speaker 1: of those because I always intended to do them. And 15 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: this one is a little bit of a ghost story. 16 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: It's got a little bit of US military history, and 17 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: it also featured animals, so it's kind of a wacky 18 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: mixed bag in terms of topics. And I decided to 19 00:00:53,760 --> 00:00:55,480 Speaker 1: kind of back off of doing much of an intro 20 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,680 Speaker 1: on it because I kind of love the oddness of 21 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 1: the story and I want listeners to sort of hear 22 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: how it plays out. Like there's an explanation of what 23 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: initially seems supernatural to some people. UM, so we're just 24 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 1: gonna kind of set the scene and then kind of 25 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,960 Speaker 1: explain what was really going on and how that came 26 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,479 Speaker 1: to be. Uh. So it starts in three uh and 27 00:01:21,680 --> 00:01:25,160 Speaker 1: at this point a mysterious beast was spotted in Arizona. 28 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,959 Speaker 1: This is the first time that this particular one is spotted. Uh. 29 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: And most of this story at the beginning, I should say, 30 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,240 Speaker 1: is all reported by the Mojave County Miner, which was 31 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: a small newspaper. Uh. And I didn't have access to 32 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: those particular ones. I have it written as relayed by 33 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 1: another researcher, So just heads up on that. So in 34 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,040 Speaker 1: three there were these two women who were home with 35 00:01:49,080 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: their children while the men of the family were away 36 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: tending their sheep flock. And they had had some issues 37 00:01:55,160 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: with Native Americans and sheep issues uh that are not 38 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 1: really made to the story. But so uh, while the 39 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:04,760 Speaker 1: men were away and these two women were at home 40 00:02:04,800 --> 00:02:07,200 Speaker 1: alone with the children, they had an encounter which would 41 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,560 Speaker 1: unfortunately prove fatal for one of them. So, according to 42 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: the legend, shortly after one of the women left the 43 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: house on Eagle Creek to go get some water. The 44 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,320 Speaker 1: dogs started barking, and that prompted the other woman to 45 00:02:19,400 --> 00:02:21,560 Speaker 1: go to the window and see what was going on. 46 00:02:22,680 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: And what she saw she described as an enormous red 47 00:02:27,880 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: beast ridden by the devil. Uh She heard screams, but 48 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 1: because she was too terrified to leave the house, she 49 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: just kind of barricaded the door. She is said to 50 00:02:39,600 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 1: have kind of frantically said prayers the rest of the 51 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: time until the men returned. So when the men came 52 00:02:45,960 --> 00:02:49,640 Speaker 1: home and heard her story, they immediately mounted a search 53 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,560 Speaker 1: party for the other woman who had gone out to 54 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: get water, but they didn't get far because they found 55 00:02:54,639 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: her nearby trampled to death. And because this was sort 56 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 1: of a mysterious death, there was some suspicion initially by 57 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 1: the um the authorities that examined the body, that maybe 58 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,080 Speaker 1: she had been murdered by someone in the family, even 59 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: though the condition of the body was obviously very unique 60 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:16,600 Speaker 1: in that it had been trampled h There was an inquest, 61 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,960 Speaker 1: but in the end the verdict in the investigation was 62 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,520 Speaker 1: reported in the local paper, the Mojabbi County Miner that 63 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: I mentioned as quote death in some manner unknown. So 64 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,080 Speaker 1: just a few days after that, and a few miles 65 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,000 Speaker 1: northeast of the first sighting, two prospectors woke up in 66 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: the night when their tent was crushed. They returned to 67 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: their mining camp in or Arizona with tales of this 68 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 1: impossibly tall horse. When a party made its way back 69 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: to the trampled camp, they found red hairs and large 70 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 1: hoofprints in the area. And naturally, this on top of 71 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: the uh, the woman having been killed in this sort 72 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:59,040 Speaker 1: of mysterious way, uh really sort of started this, you know, 73 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:02,720 Speaker 1: cultural moment on that is very natural of tall tales 74 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:06,200 Speaker 1: and gossip about what started to be called the red Ghost. 75 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: And some of the people talking about it claimed that 76 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: they had seen and even pursued the red ghost. One 77 00:04:12,280 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 1: said he saw it vanish into thin air before his eyes, 78 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: So they really were laying on the supernatural abilities at 79 00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: this point. About a month after the death of the 80 00:04:20,880 --> 00:04:24,839 Speaker 1: woman at Eagle Creek, a rancher named Cyrus Hamblin was 81 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: out getting stray cattle, kind of rounding them up when 82 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,040 Speaker 1: he spotted the beasts near the Salt River. And this 83 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 1: was eighty miles northeast of the earlier sidings. And unlike 84 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:40,720 Speaker 1: previous encounters, he knew what it was. It was a camel, Yeah, 85 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:44,200 Speaker 1: he uh. It was not entirely unheard of for camels 86 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: to be in this area. Unusual, but not unheard of. Uh. 87 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: And Hamblin could see that there was also some sort 88 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:54,880 Speaker 1: of load that was strapped to the animals back, but 89 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: he couldn't get close enough to catch the camel or 90 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 1: identify what that was on his back, but he said 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:03,000 Speaker 1: that he believed that it looked like a deceased man, 92 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,479 Speaker 1: and eventually the camel escaped him. Hamblin's word on the 93 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:10,279 Speaker 1: matter solidified this whole story of the Red Ghost, which 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,520 Speaker 1: people also called the Fantasia Colorado. That was what the 95 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:18,200 Speaker 1: Spanish speaking settlers of the area primarily called it. The 96 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: rancher was was well respected and his tail was not 97 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: really embellished. He didn't put a lot of, you know, 98 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,680 Speaker 1: crazy spin on it. He didn't throw in any supernatural 99 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: or fantastical elements, except for the part that there was 100 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: probably a dead man on the creature's back, which some 101 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: people were kind of skeptical about. Yeah, but he was 102 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: very matter of fact about it, like, I think there's 103 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: a dead guy on the back of that camel, which 104 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 1: is a phrase you'd never think you're gonna say, but 105 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,040 Speaker 1: there you go. Uh. So, several weeks after Hamlin's incident, 106 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: this time about sixty miles to the west of where 107 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:56,160 Speaker 1: Hamblin had had his encounter, another group of prospectors spotted 108 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: what was believed to be the same animal, this at 109 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,200 Speaker 1: this point having been still believed by some people to 110 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: be supernatural and others to be like, no, no, it's camel. Uh. 111 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: They thought that the best course of action was just 112 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:11,200 Speaker 1: to start firing wildly at it, and they didn't actually 113 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,160 Speaker 1: hit it, however, or if they did, they merely grazed it. 114 00:06:14,240 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: But as it ran for its life, the burden that 115 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: was on its back because there was something on its back, dislodged, 116 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:24,479 Speaker 1: and the prospectors, once the camel had gone, advanced on 117 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: this fallen cargo, and what they actually discovered was in 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: fact a human skull with some hair and a very 119 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: few shreds of decomposed skin still clinging to it. And 120 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 1: so in this moment, Cyrus Hamblin's story was completely corroborated 121 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 1: by this rather grizzly discovery, so it once again supported no, no, 122 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: he is really a stand up guy that doesn't talk crazy. 123 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:49,919 Speaker 1: There is a dead guy on that camel's back in 124 00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: so ten years after the first sightings of the Red Ghost, 125 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 1: a man by the name of Missoo Hastings found a 126 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 1: red camel eating in his garden or Arizona, and this 127 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: time he shot it dead. The camel had straps of 128 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: leather still tied to it, and in some places the 129 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:11,000 Speaker 1: straps had cut into its flesh. This residual strap work 130 00:07:11,120 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: led people to conclude that this was the same camel 131 00:07:13,960 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 1: that had been running around the area with a corpse 132 00:07:16,360 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: strap to it for the last ten years. Yeah, the 133 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: corpse wasn't actually there the whole time, but it was 134 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: a very intricate, like a netting almost of these straps. 135 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: So he had been wearing those straps and presumably pieces 136 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: of this deceased person for quite some time. But who 137 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: the dead man was remains something of a mystery. I 138 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: read your note is where the dead man was remained 139 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: something of a mystery, And I'm like, scattered around the 140 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,480 Speaker 1: dwell bea that part we know or we'd presume. Uh. 141 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:48,200 Speaker 1: And in the years between the time that the skull 142 00:07:48,280 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: had been picked up and when Missoo hastings had killed 143 00:07:52,160 --> 00:07:55,440 Speaker 1: the Red ghosts uh, and there had been other sightings 144 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 1: during that time, But there had also been a lot 145 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 1: of speculation that perhaps the corpse had been a man 146 00:08:01,040 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: who had strapped himself onto the camel when he was 147 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: thirsty and near death, hoping that the animal was going 148 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 1: to eventually lead him to water. It didn't work, apparently, 149 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 1: well they've realized that wasn't really what happened. Well, once 150 00:08:14,720 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 1: the felled camel and its straps had been examined, though, 151 00:08:17,440 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: it was apparent that they could not have been tied 152 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: by a man, the man who was writing, and this 153 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: conclusion led the Mohave County Minor to say this, the 154 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: only question is whether the man was tied on for 155 00:08:29,320 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: revenge or merely as an ugly piece of humor by 156 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: someone who had a camel and a corpse for which 157 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: he had no use. Yeah, so there's it's never really 158 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 1: been uh solved one way or the other. In addition 159 00:08:41,679 --> 00:08:43,520 Speaker 1: to who it was, but whether he had been alive 160 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: or dead when he had been strapped to the camel. 161 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,720 Speaker 1: So the mystery of the Red Ghost was dissolved at 162 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,560 Speaker 1: that point as it was ever going to be. Uh. However, 163 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:57,960 Speaker 1: that leads us to the next part of the episode, 164 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:01,440 Speaker 1: which is why a camel was wandering around the American 165 00:09:01,480 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: Southwest in the first place. And before we get to that, 166 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: we're gonna have a word from our sponsor, and now 167 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 1: we will hop back to Arizona. So the introduction of 168 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,600 Speaker 1: camels into the US was actually a military function, and 169 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: it actually took two decades from the time the first 170 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: studies were conducted about this idea to the actual introduction 171 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:25,599 Speaker 1: of camels into the American Southwest. It all started in 172 00:09:25,679 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 1: eighteen thirty six when E. F. Miller Esquire conducted a 173 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: camel study and wrote a letter detailing his findings to 174 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 1: the U S. Quartermaster Captain George H. Craftsman of Georgia 175 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: and UH in the spring of eighteen forty three. So 176 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:45,240 Speaker 1: it still some years later. U. S. Quartermaster General Thomas S. 177 00:09:45,320 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: Jessup received a letter from Crossman extolling the potential virtues 178 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: of camels as pack animals for use in military service. 179 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 1: Crossman characterized camels as imposing and being potentially intimidating to 180 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: the horses favored by Native American so they felt that 181 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 1: they would have the upper hand in any dealings UH 182 00:10:04,040 --> 00:10:07,840 Speaker 1: with natives and camels had also, you know, after all, 183 00:10:07,920 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 1: been part of various militaries throughout world history, and Crossman 184 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 1: cited Miller's research as a source of validation for all 185 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,559 Speaker 1: his assertions about how great camels could be for the service. 186 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: This is because the discworld books didn't exist yet. We're 187 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 1: not we need to find a time machine and then 188 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: handed off to them and they don't pull any punches 189 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: about how terrible camels can be to work with. Crossman 190 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: also discussed using camels in the army with the Quartermaster 191 00:10:36,960 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 1: Henry Wayne, who was very interested in the idea, and 192 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: then in eighteen forty eight, so this is still all 193 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,520 Speaker 1: percolating along via years and years and years, Henry Wayne 194 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:50,079 Speaker 1: went to the War departments with this idea, and though 195 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: that had already taken quite some time, it was actually 196 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: another six years before the concept of introducing camels into 197 00:10:56,960 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: military service in the US took another significant step. That 198 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: was in eighteen fifty four when Jefferson Davis, the Secretary 199 00:11:04,360 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: of War, made a report to the Senate proposing the 200 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 1: introduction of camels into army use. And in addition to 201 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: the previous missives that promoted the use of camels, Davis 202 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,680 Speaker 1: had also been influenced by naval officer Edward Fitzgerald Beale. 203 00:11:19,080 --> 00:11:21,959 Speaker 1: Bale had read the writing of ever East our Hook, 204 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 1: a French missionary who penned a travel diary called Recollections 205 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:31,080 Speaker 1: of a Journey through Tartari, Tibet and China during the 206 00:11:31,120 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: years eighteen and eighteen forty six. He was really taken 207 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: with the accounts of camels in this work, and he 208 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: shared his very enthusiastic point of view on the topic 209 00:11:42,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: with anyone who would listen, including Jefferson Davis. And the 210 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: timing of this at this point was good because of 211 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 1: the increasing burden that the US was facing in the 212 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: Southwest at the time. So Davis's idea really was met 213 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: with some enthusiasm, and this was because there was a 214 00:11:58,440 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: growing need both for transportation of troops as well as 215 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: for moving heavy loads of supplies. So this is, you know, 216 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: mid eighteen hundreds, when we are slowly pushing out to 217 00:12:07,760 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 1: the west and things are being built, uh, and the 218 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: ability of camels to survive in conditions similar to those 219 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: in the desert areas of the Southwest started to make 220 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: them look like a pretty appealing solution to the problems. 221 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: So In early eighteen fifty five, Davis was granted a 222 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:24,960 Speaker 1: budget of thirty thousand dollars to start working on a 223 00:12:25,000 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: camel corps. He immediately sent Henry Wayne to the eastern 224 00:12:28,480 --> 00:12:33,079 Speaker 1: Mediterranean to find suitable camels to buy. And Wayne was 225 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,199 Speaker 1: joined in this mission by Navy Lieutenant David Dixon Porter, 226 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: who was actually a relative of Beal. And the two 227 00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,800 Speaker 1: men did not make a direct route through the Mediterranean 228 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,480 Speaker 1: too like Camel Country, they actually stopped at many places 229 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,640 Speaker 1: along the way. UH. They stopped throughout Europe. They interviewed 230 00:12:49,679 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: camel experts and got their opinions. They talked to zoologists, 231 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 1: They visited with royals who owned camels as part of 232 00:12:55,920 --> 00:12:59,360 Speaker 1: their menageries. UH. And they also made several stops around 233 00:12:59,360 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: the mediterrane in like they visited Tunis, they visited Malta, 234 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: and in some of these places they would purchase stock 235 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:07,800 Speaker 1: if they found it suitable. UH. They also, while they 236 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:10,280 Speaker 1: were doing all this stuff, dropped off Wayne's son at 237 00:13:10,280 --> 00:13:13,680 Speaker 1: a French boarding school, where the boys stayed for several years. 238 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: He did not finish the camel travel. While you're in France, 239 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:21,679 Speaker 1: why don't you go to school for a while On 240 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:25,520 Speaker 1: February eighteen fifty six, Wayne and Porter started their journey 241 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,160 Speaker 1: back to the US aboard the U. S. S. Supply 242 00:13:28,600 --> 00:13:31,040 Speaker 1: and they were traveling with thirty three camels. This was 243 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: a mix of Arabian bactory and Tunis and two Lue 244 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: camels along with five handlers. This group landed at Indian 245 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:43,079 Speaker 1: on the Texas on May fourteenth, and that's where the 246 00:13:43,120 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: camels were offloaded from the U. S. S. Supply and 247 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,480 Speaker 1: then they began marching uh Tutor destination which was Camp 248 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: very day, and they got to Camp very day on 249 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: August that same year. In eighteen fifty seven, Porter made 250 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,880 Speaker 1: the journey to the Eastern Mediterranean again bringing back forty 251 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 1: one more camels. Also in eighteen fifty seven, Beal took 252 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: one of the camel handlers who was named Hadji Ali, 253 00:14:06,480 --> 00:14:10,439 Speaker 1: who you will also see him listed in historical references 254 00:14:10,520 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: high Jolly, because apparently Americans that could not quite manage 255 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,920 Speaker 1: his name nicknamed him that. See my my expression of 256 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: being rather nonplus. Yeah, he didn't apparently seem terribly concerned 257 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,200 Speaker 1: with it. Um. But they all went on a survey 258 00:14:27,240 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: expedition which had been ordered by President James Buchanan, and 259 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: this team was tasked with building a wagon road from 260 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: Fort Defiance, New Mexico, to the Colorado River, and they 261 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: took twenty five camels with them on this assignment so 262 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: that they could test out the beasts, and it turned 263 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: out that the camels did a really good job. Side note, 264 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,960 Speaker 1: this wagon trail also marked the travel path that would 265 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,040 Speaker 1: eventually become the legendary Root sixty six. Yeah, first found 266 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:57,560 Speaker 1: by camels. Yeah. My my friends Natan Carey drove the 267 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,840 Speaker 1: entire length of that as a summer make Asian last summer. 268 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: I have friends that moved out to Los Angeles last 269 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:06,160 Speaker 1: year and they did a similar thing on the way. 270 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: I think it's an awesome fun thing, have road trip time, 271 00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: having the witnessed other people doing it. Yeah, I'm kind 272 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: of like, let's get to the destination already, not be 273 00:15:15,720 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: in the car all day, But that's me. Uh. It 274 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: turned out that these camels could easily carry three hundred 275 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: pounds and they could travel for four miles an hour, 276 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 1: which doesn't sound terribly fast, but compared to other options, 277 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: they did quite well, especially considering their heavy cargo with 278 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: very few stops, so they could just kind of go 279 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: all day long. Uh. And they didn't really need to 280 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,000 Speaker 1: have provisions for their meals carried along because they were 281 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: able to grade on the cedar and the creasote bush 282 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: that were plentiful along the route and which other pack 283 00:15:43,800 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 1: animals could not eat. Uh And the camels were also 284 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: able to outlast other pack animals on difficult journeys, so 285 00:15:50,040 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: in some cases when they had brought other animals along, 286 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: they would have to abandon them because they could not 287 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,840 Speaker 1: hack the conditions, whereas the camels could just keep going. 288 00:15:58,040 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 1: That's terrible, it is. This one's a little off for 289 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: the animal lover in me. Henry Wayne in particular, really 290 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: championed the camel's usefulness. According to one story, after hearing 291 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,600 Speaker 1: remarks about the camel's not being impressive as pack animals, 292 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:13,360 Speaker 1: he had one of his camels loaded with four hay bales, 293 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,280 Speaker 1: which totaled more than a thousand pounds, to just show 294 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: off how strong it was. Yeah, again, the animal lover 295 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: and me struggles with a little bit of the story. 296 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: Um like, that's kind of abusive, but uh so, initially, 297 00:16:25,960 --> 00:16:27,800 Speaker 1: you know, at this point, the Camel Corps looked like 298 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,120 Speaker 1: it was going to be a success because they were 299 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: doing very well in the desert conditions, they could carry loads. 300 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: They could outlast mules and horses no problem. But of 301 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,760 Speaker 1: course that is not the whole story. If you've ever 302 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 1: ever seen a book with a camel in it, or 303 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: maybe just like seeing a picture of a camel, you've 304 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 1: ever seen a camel, you're right. Even if it's been 305 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,200 Speaker 1: like a far away glimpse of a camel, you can 306 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: probably grasp that they have tempers. Yeah, I mean, that's 307 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: what they're known for. When I think most people if 308 00:16:56,240 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 1: they just do a quick like association and someone says camel, 309 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 1: you think, oh my goodness, they're gonna spit and trample me. Yep. 310 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: That has proved to be a problem. They could be 311 00:17:04,480 --> 00:17:08,479 Speaker 1: very difficult, and they sometimes completely disregarded their handlers. They 312 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: would growl at soldiers as they approached with loads that 313 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: they were going to like on onto them. Oh and 314 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:20,760 Speaker 1: also cammell smell pretty bad. Yeah uh, and I'm sure 315 00:17:20,840 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 1: they probably weren't getting washed very regularly. I'm just imagining 316 00:17:24,880 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: what effort it would take to wash a camel at 317 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,880 Speaker 1: this point in history. Yeah, a lot. It would take 318 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 1: a lot of effort. Couldn't just pull out a hose, no, 319 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:43,080 Speaker 1: I mean you there, Oh, natural probably buckets maybe hope. Uh. 320 00:17:43,160 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: And that smell is actually part of the reason. Uh. 321 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:49,280 Speaker 1: It's attributed to part of the reason why they spooked 322 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: the horses. And as you recall, this had been a 323 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: selling point for the camel Corps when it came to 324 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: the horses the Native Americans used. But this was a 325 00:17:58,600 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: huge problem when they were horses that were being used 326 00:18:01,520 --> 00:18:04,360 Speaker 1: by the same US troops that were also employing the camels, 327 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: and they had to deal with this interspecies problem. So 328 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:11,520 Speaker 1: the horses were not delighted by the camel's presence. They 329 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:13,919 Speaker 1: would get very scared. And keep in mind, these are 330 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: large animals, so when one is angry and one is spooked, 331 00:18:17,119 --> 00:18:19,280 Speaker 1: you can imagine how difficult it is to sort of 332 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: corral that, and then multiply that by the many that 333 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: we're traveling together. That could be deadly. Uh. And it's 334 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 1: probably understandable that many of the soldiers openly complained about 335 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: the situation. UH. And even General David Twiggs, who commanded 336 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,120 Speaker 1: Texas and thus was a very powerful man in the military, 337 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,160 Speaker 1: he made it pretty clear that he would just rather 338 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:42,360 Speaker 1: have mules and could we please not deal with these 339 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:46,680 Speaker 1: camels so as the Civil War, mounted Confederate troops took 340 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,480 Speaker 1: Camp bear Day in February of eighteen sixty one, and 341 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: so while the camels had proven their usefulness, they still 342 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:56,119 Speaker 1: were not a standard part of military operations. This is 343 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:00,680 Speaker 1: still considered an experimental concept and they hadn't really been 344 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: planned for as part of the Confederate war effort. So 345 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: the animals then were, you know, there at Camp fair Day, 346 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 1: and they were used and sometimes abused again a little 347 00:19:11,800 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: difficult for the animal lover, uh, in a variety of 348 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: sometimes kind of odd ways. Some were used for just 349 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: transporting goods and freight, just like they had been prior 350 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 1: to eighteen sixty one. Some were used for entertainment rides, 351 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 1: and some were sent around to other bases. One was 352 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: allegedly pushed off a cliff by Confederate soldiers because they 353 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:33,760 Speaker 1: found it bothersome and they didn't want to take care 354 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: of it. And some were just neglected or set loose. Yeah, 355 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 1: I mean, my heart breaks at the thought of an 356 00:19:39,560 --> 00:19:43,200 Speaker 1: animal being en off a cliff or even just abandoned 357 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,480 Speaker 1: or neglected. At the same time, just from the point 358 00:19:46,480 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 1: of view of like someone in that situation, I can 359 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 1: imagine that there is an element of I don't know 360 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: what to do with these things, and there is a 361 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 1: herd of them at this camp, uh, and they just 362 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 1: didn't know how to deal with them. We should also 363 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 1: mentioned that while being set loose in some cases may 364 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: have seemed like a kindness, we should note that these 365 00:20:05,880 --> 00:20:08,440 Speaker 1: animals had been bred in domestication. I mean, they were 366 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: bred as stock. They weren't like wild camels that have 367 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:15,239 Speaker 1: been cotton tamed, so they had never been wild, and 368 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: fending for themselves in the brush, even though they were physiologically, 369 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,639 Speaker 1: you know, pretty well suited to the environment, was likely 370 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:27,159 Speaker 1: a very stressful situation. And additionally, when prospectors or cowhands 371 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,119 Speaker 1: would encounter these animals that have been set free just wandering, 372 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 1: they kind of viewed them as target practice. So they 373 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:39,120 Speaker 1: were really treated very poorly and inhumanly. Union troops took 374 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: Camp very back in eighteen sixty five, but reconstruction resulted 375 00:20:43,280 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: in a diversion of funds away from the camel corps, 376 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: and as the railroad system was built farther and farther west, 377 00:20:50,080 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: you know, the camels had been helping to run supplies 378 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: for a lot of the construction. The need for the 379 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: camels just evaporated, and in eighteen sixty six most of 380 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,320 Speaker 1: the remaining camels when camp very toy had been taken 381 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: back or sold at auction in New Orleans, Louisiana, and 382 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 1: also in Benicia, California. And these were sold at significant loss. Uh. 383 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,120 Speaker 1: Some were purchased by circuses, carnivals or zoos. Some were 384 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,960 Speaker 1: likely sold to be used as meat. Some were purchased 385 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: by like just private people who were like, I have money, 386 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 1: I'll buy a camel, and then they often turned around 387 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: and resold them for a much higher rate. They were, 388 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: in essence camel flippers. Camel flippers. Yeah, so today there 389 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: are camel core reenactors who keep a small number of 390 00:21:34,240 --> 00:21:38,639 Speaker 1: camels for education purposes. There's a comedy film made about 391 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,359 Speaker 1: the whole thing in the seventies, and there's even a 392 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: children's book about it. There's also a memorial to the 393 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: camel core at the final resting site of the camel 394 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: handler Hagia l E in Quartzite, Arizona, and it's kind 395 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,760 Speaker 1: of a pyramid shaped a little memorial that stands there 396 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,000 Speaker 1: in references both Higil's work as well as just the 397 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: camel coret itself. Because he stayed in the US even 398 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: after his need his work as a camel handler was done. 399 00:22:06,560 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: While the Red Ghost was felled in camel sidings continued 400 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 1: in Arizona, California, and Mexico well into the twentieth century. 401 00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: Even in the nineteen fifties there were people who claimed 402 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: that there were still camels in Sonora and Baja California. Yeah. 403 00:22:22,600 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: Completely random species introduced, and we're allegedly, you know, kind 404 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,320 Speaker 1: of surviving in the desert for a long time, some 405 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 1: being very elderly, I'm sure, and others possibly having made 406 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: it and had their own little camel families. I am 407 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 1: going to say that I am relieved that it was 408 00:22:40,840 --> 00:22:44,880 Speaker 1: not more like the introduction of kadzoo. I mean, can 409 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: you imagine if camels overran the Southwest the way rabbits 410 00:22:48,520 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: overran Australia. I thought about that as I was doing this, 411 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:54,560 Speaker 1: I was like, I guess camels didn't do so well 412 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: in the hole propagating and and sort of you know, 413 00:23:00,200 --> 00:23:03,639 Speaker 1: a huge blow up of population, which is good. I 414 00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: still feel very bad for the camels because they can't 415 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 1: get past that. Uh. And it's interesting. You'll here's some 416 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,520 Speaker 1: nice or read when you're looking at research about this. Uh, 417 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:15,840 Speaker 1: there are historians who like to theorize what would have 418 00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 1: happened if we hadn't completely abandoned the camel core experiment, 419 00:23:19,400 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: because it did seem like it had some uh fairly 420 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 1: you know, positive aspects to it, even though the camels 421 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: tended to be grumpy and problematic. You know, some like 422 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,119 Speaker 1: to wonder what had happened if the Union Army had 423 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 1: incorporated them into regular service after they had taken back 424 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:36,199 Speaker 1: camp ver day. And we'll never know, of course, but 425 00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: we do know that they could survive on their own 426 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 1: in the desert for decades. Uh. So, you know, on 427 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: the off chance here in the Southwest it's the a 428 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,440 Speaker 1: random camel probably related to those. There haven't been sightings 429 00:23:49,440 --> 00:23:54,879 Speaker 1: in decades, so I would be shocked. But unless some 430 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 1: ridiculous wealthy person purchased this one as a pet and 431 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: that sets it free because they're fool, it's probably not 432 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: going to happen. But that is the camel core. And 433 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: that's one of those things that um because it involves 434 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: so many moving parts and names that are also connected 435 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:12,040 Speaker 1: to other aspects of the Civil War, you know, it 436 00:24:12,040 --> 00:24:15,200 Speaker 1: can quickly blossom out into a very huge and long thing, 437 00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,520 Speaker 1: and we may eventually cover other parts of this story 438 00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:20,560 Speaker 1: that kind of interlock. But that's the scoop on why 439 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: there was a camel running around looking like a devil, uh, 440 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,000 Speaker 1: killing people with a corpse. Yeah, and it kind of 441 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: explains when you think about that, why that camel seemed 442 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: to be pretty aggressive towards humans. It had clearly been 443 00:24:35,560 --> 00:24:38,359 Speaker 1: treated badly. Someone had strapped a person to it and 444 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: send it off. It was carrying something around, uh that 445 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,000 Speaker 1: was tied tightly enough to be cutting into its flesh, 446 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: so it probably was very grumpy. Did not associate humans 447 00:24:48,080 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: with good things. Uh, that's scoop. Do you have some 448 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: listener mail for us? I do, And it's such a 449 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:59,400 Speaker 1: dear change from camels, it will evolve no animal talk whatsoever. Uh. 450 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: It is from our listener, Allison, and she says, Um, 451 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: I am a cartoonist who loves history, so I love 452 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,119 Speaker 1: being able to listen. So being able to listen all 453 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: I draw is wonderful. I'm ready to ask for advice, 454 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: possibly for both of you, but perhaps mostly Holly, as 455 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:15,440 Speaker 1: I know of her passion for historical clothing. I want 456 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: to make a comic about the history of underwear. Okay, 457 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: my aside, Allison, I just fell a little bit in 458 00:25:20,000 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 1: love with you. Of course, she says. The first thing 459 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 1: I did was to search your archives, and I was 460 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,639 Speaker 1: so happy to find the episode about that exact topic. 461 00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 1: I really enjoyed it, and it piqued my interest even more. 462 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: I'm looking for suggestions for books, websites, and anything else 463 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:35,679 Speaker 1: you might think would be helpful. I don't know much 464 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: about the history of clothing in general, so I have 465 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: a lot of research ahead of me, so any guidance 466 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: is welcome. Uh oh, I'm so happy to suggest my 467 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,240 Speaker 1: two favorite books and one other thing. Um. The first 468 00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,679 Speaker 1: is one called Course. It's in crinolines. It's written by 469 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: a woman named Nora Waw. It's kind of considered the 470 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,879 Speaker 1: gold standard of underwear history. I will tell you this. 471 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: It's laid out a little bit oddly in terms of 472 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: how the chapters are sectioned, but once you kind of 473 00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:03,959 Speaker 1: get the hang of the structure of it, it all 474 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: makes a lot of sense. And it's a pretty comprehensive history. 475 00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,440 Speaker 1: Have you ever encountered that with Tracy? I don't, well, 476 00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:11,760 Speaker 1: because you've done some historical stuff as well. Yeah, and 477 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: then the name rings a Bell, but I have not 478 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: read it. It's a good one. I will let you 479 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: borrow it if you want. The other one is one 480 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:19,919 Speaker 1: that's called Costume and Detail and it's written by Nancy 481 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 1: Branford and it kind of breaks down like different elements 482 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 1: up close of of clothing and what they are and 483 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,920 Speaker 1: how they all function. And it's just sort of a good, 484 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: um baseline education on what was happening and clothing at 485 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 1: different points in history. Uh. The other thing that I 486 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: would recommend is actually a DVD and it's uh, it's 487 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: put out by Laughing Moon Mercantile, which is primarily a 488 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 1: historical pattern company. If you just google Laughing Moon Mercantile, 489 00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: it'll come up. Although the spelling of the U R 490 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 1: L is a little bit funky for laughing I think 491 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:54,400 Speaker 1: it's l A f n UM. I'm not sure why, 492 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: but in any case, they produced it. It's a little 493 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,560 Speaker 1: bit old, but the informay and is all still you know, 494 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: basically current because they're talking about historical stuff. It's actually 495 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 1: a DVD on how to make a Victorian corset, but 496 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,199 Speaker 1: the whole first part of it is kind of a 497 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: history of course, it's and how they function, which if 498 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:15,480 Speaker 1: you're looking at it as UH sort of fact gathering 499 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 1: so that you can draw about them. You will learn 500 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: exactly what is supporting what and how it all goes 501 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 1: together from sort of a um the physics and engineering aspect, 502 00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 1: which will only make your drawings better. So those of 503 00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:29,880 Speaker 1: you my recommendations for Allison and really anybody that wants 504 00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:34,960 Speaker 1: to learn about historical underpinnings. UH. Those are, pardon the pun, 505 00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: a great foundation for UH learning about foundations and and 506 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,320 Speaker 1: where they all start. So that's that. If you would 507 00:27:43,359 --> 00:27:46,119 Speaker 1: like to write to us and ask us about historical 508 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: undergarments or anything else with camels, you can do so 509 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,400 Speaker 1: at History Podcast at Discovery dot com. You can also 510 00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,479 Speaker 1: connect with us at Facebook dot com slash missed in History, 511 00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,639 Speaker 1: on Twitter at miss in History, and on mist in 512 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,000 Speaker 1: history dot coms or dot com. Um. We are also 513 00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:04,399 Speaker 1: on Pinterest at pinterest dot com slash missed in History, 514 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,960 Speaker 1: and you visit us on our very own shiny and 515 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 1: Brake website, which is missed in History dot com. If 516 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 1: you would like to learn a little bit more about 517 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,320 Speaker 1: what we talked about today, you can go to our 518 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: parent website how to works and in the search bar 519 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: type in camel, and you will find an article that 520 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:23,119 Speaker 1: is how long can a camel go without water? It 521 00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: is quite long, quite a long time. The article isn't 522 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: long articles twenty two pages about the camel water absorption system. No, 523 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: it's briefing gets to the point. Uh. If you would 524 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: like to learn about that, or really anything else your 525 00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:40,880 Speaker 1: mind can conjure, you can do that at our website, 526 00:28:40,880 --> 00:28:46,920 Speaker 1: which is how stol works dot com for more on 527 00:28:47,000 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: these thousands of other topics because it has to have 528 00:28:49,440 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: works dot com.