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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist column

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Speaker 1: for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid, and

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Speaker 3: I write the Dear Guy call Um for Ted. And

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Speaker 3: this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: This week, a woman deals with the fallout after her

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Speaker 1: mother blames her for her father's suicide.

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Speaker 4: She said, you know why he killed himself, So she

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Speaker 4: made it sound like she knew the reason, like he

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Speaker 4: left it in the suicide note. Basically, I don't believe

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Speaker 4: her anymore. I feel like she's lying.

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Speaker 1: Listen in and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 3: Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 3: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 3: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 3: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 3: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 3: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in Potter

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Speaker 3: and Full and we may edit it for length, end

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Speaker 3: or clarity.

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Speaker 1: Hi Guy, Hi Lourie. So this week's letter just slayed me.

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Speaker 1: It's so painful. I'm going to read it to you.

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Speaker 4: There's how it goes.

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Speaker 3: I'm ready, dear therapists.

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Speaker 1: My parents and I immigrated to the US when I

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Speaker 1: was six. I am now forty eight. My parents never

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Speaker 1: learned English and relied heavily on me, especially since I

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Speaker 1: was an only child. So I focused on them, drove

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Speaker 1: them around doctors, dentists, financial advisors, shopping, went through their mail, etc.

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Speaker 1: When I got married, my parents lived with us, since

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Speaker 1: I was taught that this was Chinese tradition. Because I

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Speaker 1: have children, now, one with ale disability, my priority started

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Speaker 1: to shift. I didn't do things for them immediately like

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Speaker 1: I used to, even though it would get done, but

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Speaker 1: not in the urgent manner they were accustomed to. I

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Speaker 1: think my parents may have felt neglected and lost because

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Speaker 1: of this. In twenty seventeen, my father took his own

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Speaker 1: life for reasons I'm not sure about. My aunts and

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Speaker 1: cousins were there for us during this hard time. I

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Speaker 1: took my mom to China to visit her sisters that

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Speaker 1: same year, thinking the trip would help her in her healing,

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Speaker 1: everything seemed fine for a while. I would take a

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Speaker 1: day off work each month to dedicate to her for shopping,

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Speaker 1: eating out, or visiting with family, in addition to going

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Speaker 1: anywhere as needed during the week. One day in January

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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, as I was driving her to go shopping,

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Speaker 1: she said, you know why your dad killed himself, And

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Speaker 1: before I had a chance to say anything, she said,

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Speaker 1: because of you. You never read our mail and he

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Speaker 1: was so concerned. I'm sure she said more, but I

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Speaker 1: don't remember the rest. I confronted her two weeks later

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Speaker 1: because if this was true, why didn't she blame me earlier.

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Speaker 1: I've been broken since this. I can't even look at

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Speaker 1: her now, even though she lives with me, but I

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Speaker 1: feel imprisoned because she has nowhere else to go. I

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Speaker 1: barely talk to her maybe two sentences a week. I

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Speaker 1: don't even go to her doctor appointments with her to translate.

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Speaker 1: I leave it to the clinic to use the translation line.

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Speaker 1: But I do drive her in complete silence. She did

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Speaker 1: approach me early this year. She asked me, now that

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Speaker 1: everything is out, can we go back to how our

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Speaker 1: relationship was before. I'm disgusted and insulted that she can

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Speaker 1: even ask me such a thing. Can you offer me

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Speaker 1: some advice as to how I can move on? I

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Speaker 1: carry a lot of hurt and I don't think she cares,

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Speaker 1: because if she did, she would never have said something

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Speaker 1: so hurtful to me. Thank you, Mollie.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So I can see why that letter slayed you.

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Speaker 3: This is one of those where everyone is hurting, and

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Speaker 3: everyone is hurting alone. And that's in part why this

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Speaker 3: is so difficult. What happens often with immigrant family is

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Speaker 3: when they come with a young child, is that that

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Speaker 3: young child becomes very parentified because they're the ones that

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Speaker 3: have to translate and mediate between their parents and the

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Speaker 3: world at a very young age. So then their parents

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Speaker 3: become very dependent on the six, seven, eight year old child, etc.

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Speaker 3: And that of course creates a whole dynamic onto itself

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Speaker 3: that can be very problematic. So there is so much here.

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Speaker 1: You're right, there's that whole experience layered on top of

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Speaker 1: something that often happens around suicide, which is all of

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Speaker 1: these questions about what happened and why and what could

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Speaker 1: have been done Had I known, would I have done

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Speaker 1: something differently? But to say to somebody, especially the daughter,

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Speaker 1: this is your fault. It's so incredibly toxic.

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Speaker 3: Because guilt is such a natural phenomenon around suicide. People

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Speaker 3: feel like, oh, what if I had said something? Maybe

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Speaker 3: when they said that thing, that was a hint of it.

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Speaker 3: People go through that in their heads and search, often

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Speaker 3: without reason, because often the suicide is about that person,

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Speaker 3: not about the failure of anyone around them. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: so to go through that questioning and then to get

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Speaker 3: that from her mother is so painful. But she still

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Speaker 3: has to be the caretaker for her mom despite this.

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Speaker 3: So that's why this seems like such a tortuous situation.

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Speaker 1: I feel like this is going to be a difficult conversation,

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Speaker 1: but I also hope that we can help her. So

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Speaker 1: let's bring her in.

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Speaker 3: You're listening to Deotherapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 3: a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Guy Wench and this is Deotherapists.

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Speaker 4: So Hi, Mollie, Hi, thank you for accepting my letter

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Speaker 4: and talking to me today.

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Speaker 3: Of course you're very welcome, and thank you for coming

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Speaker 3: on the show. So your letter was really painful to read,

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Speaker 3: to be honest with you, and so first our condolences

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Speaker 3: about your dad, and our condolence is about the situation,

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Speaker 3: because he'd be such a painful situation. Thank you, and

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Speaker 3: I guess we wanted to start getting a little background,

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Speaker 3: if that's okay. You came with your parents, you were six,

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Speaker 3: They didn't speak the language. You've probably learned it very

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Speaker 3: quickly at that age. Could you tell us a little

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Speaker 3: bit about what life was like for you growing up.

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Speaker 4: I sure all my cousins, my aunts, and my grandmother,

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Speaker 4: we all came here together and we learned the language.

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Speaker 4: The little ones and the older ones never really learn

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Speaker 4: and they depended upon the younger ones to translate.

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Speaker 1: Malie, can you tell us why your family decided to

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Speaker 1: come here.

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Speaker 4: My uncle moved here and he thought it was a

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Speaker 4: good area where we can grow and have freedom and

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Speaker 4: have choices and not be restricted by the government. And

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Speaker 4: you know everything he said. Majority of us have great careers,

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Speaker 4: and that's mainly the reason.

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Speaker 3: When you were young, all the translating fell to you,

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Speaker 3: whereas with your cousins there was more than one kid,

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Speaker 3: so they could probably divvy it up a little bit.

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Speaker 3: But when you're translating all the time, you're exposed as

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Speaker 3: a young kid to a lot of things that parents

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Speaker 3: wouldn't ordinarily expose their young child too because they don't

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Speaker 3: want them to know necessarily what's the balance in the bank.

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Speaker 3: In other words, you have to carry this responsibility of

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Speaker 3: not just the translation, but of the knowing at an

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Speaker 3: age where you're really too young to have to deal

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Speaker 3: with that.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 4: And even when my parents their house was broken into,

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Speaker 4: instead of calling nine to one one, they called me.

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Speaker 4: So this is basically my life and I didn't know

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Speaker 4: any different, and I was okay with it until I

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Speaker 4: got older and I have children, and my priority shifted.

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Speaker 4: And that's where I feel that maybe they never accepted

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Speaker 4: that because I always put them first. What they want,

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Speaker 4: I did it immediately, So I just did as I

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Speaker 4: was told. And that's also the expectations of our tradition

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Speaker 4: and our culture.

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Speaker 1: What was your world outside of your family? If you

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Speaker 1: had any world outside of your family when you were

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Speaker 1: growing up. Did you have friends at school? Did you

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Speaker 1: have people come over to the house, did you go

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Speaker 1: to their houses? Did you participate in extra curriculars at school?

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Speaker 4: Oh, I mainly hung out with my cousins and we

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Speaker 4: were always together until maybe junior high school. I didn't

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Speaker 4: participate in law school activities because my parents never really

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Speaker 4: encouraged me to do that. I played the piano. I

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Speaker 4: think that's very that's a very Asian thing. So I

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Speaker 4: did the piano, but I had wanted to do ballet

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Speaker 4: because my friends were doing it. If my mom has

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Speaker 4: a thing where she likes to I think she like

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Speaker 4: to say statements just to get a reaction. But I've

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Speaker 4: always been overweight, and she would instead of telling me no,

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Speaker 4: she can or she does not sign up, she would

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Speaker 4: just say, oh, you're too fat, You're gonna fall and

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Speaker 4: break the floor. It would just lead to a comment

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Speaker 4: where it's like hurtful, and she would always say it

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Speaker 4: in front of everybody.

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Speaker 1: So how would you react when she would say things

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Speaker 1: like that. It sounds like maybe it became something that

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Speaker 1: you got used to in a way, so it wasn't

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Speaker 1: as surprising, even though it probably was always painful.

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Speaker 4: It is painful. I mean, you know, who wants to

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Speaker 4: be reminded that you're overweight, especially as a child. And

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Speaker 4: she would always say it in front of my family

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Speaker 4: and to get them to laugh, which I mean I

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Speaker 4: never laughed.

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Speaker 1: You said up until junior high, you mainly hung out

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Speaker 1: with your cousins. Was there a point in junior high

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Speaker 1: in high school when you started to make outside friendships?

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Speaker 4: Yes, I did make some friends, but they would say, oh,

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Speaker 4: this person's no good, so you can't be friends with them,

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Speaker 4: or you know, maybe you shouldn't hang out with this person.

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Speaker 4: So I had a very small group, which is fine

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Speaker 4: because I'm an introvert anyway, so I didn't like a

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Speaker 4: big social group. So to me, that was somewhat normal.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if it is or not.

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Speaker 3: Well, it's restrictive for sure, right, I mean, it's quite

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Speaker 3: restrictive because coincidentally, all these things involve you leaving the

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Speaker 3: house and having your life away from them, whether it's dancing,

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Speaker 3: whether it's socializing. You know, piano, you practice mostly at home,

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Speaker 3: So somehow there was a way of keeping you tethered

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Speaker 3: to the home.

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Speaker 4: I could see that.

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Speaker 1: Did you go away to college and move out of

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Speaker 1: the house.

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Speaker 4: No, That's the other thing I was resentful for because

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Speaker 4: I had wanted to see what was out there for me,

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Speaker 4: but I didn't dare do that because they were on me.

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Speaker 4: Who else are they going to call? So I stayed

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Speaker 4: at home. Resentments build, but again, that's part of my life,

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Speaker 4: so I just let it go. If I didn't have

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Speaker 4: this like rope against me on me, I wouldn't be

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Speaker 4: with her.

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Speaker 3: Was there a point in which you actually lived separately

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Speaker 3: from your parents.

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Speaker 4: For a very short time? I did. After I graduated,

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Speaker 4: I went to Asia because I really wanted to travel

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Speaker 4: some before I, you know, got serious and had responsibilities.

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Speaker 3: Had had more responsibility.

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Speaker 1: You had plenty of responsibility.

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Speaker 4: So I went to Asia and I traveled for almost

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Speaker 4: a year. But I came back because it was tax

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Speaker 4: time and they wanted me to help them with their taxes.

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Speaker 4: So I flew back because of that.

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Speaker 3: But what was it like then, that year abroad, when

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Speaker 3: you're away from them and you're truly independent for the

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Speaker 3: first time without all those responsibilities. What was that like

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Speaker 3: for you?

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Speaker 4: I described that as probably the happiest time in my life.

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Speaker 4: I didn't have to do them. Hear about it, hear

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Speaker 4: the complaints here, the constant can you do this, can

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Speaker 4: you do this? Or you did this wrong? You know,

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Speaker 4: it was just that's such a great time, so stupid,

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Speaker 4: this such a great time.

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Speaker 1: Tell us about the joy of your liberation. Tell us

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Speaker 1: what brought you so much joy.

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Speaker 4: I think freedom, not the obligation. I don't have to

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Speaker 4: be told what they wanted me to do, command what

254
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Speaker 4: they wanted me. Not only command, but my mom, which

255
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Speaker 4: is insults in top of commands, you know. So it

256
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Speaker 4: was just nice to not have to hear that. It's

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Speaker 4: just piness.

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Speaker 1: Did you meet friends that year and start to have

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Speaker 1: a social life?

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Speaker 4: All right? I met a lot of people. It was great,

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Speaker 4: It was really fun.

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Speaker 3: That was the only period though, in your life. So

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Speaker 3: you came back, How did you go into your life?

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Speaker 4: I came back, got a job, I met my now husband.

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Speaker 1: How did you meet your husband?

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Speaker 4: I was working for the government. We didn't have any

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Speaker 4: snacks or anything in the building, so we would have

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Speaker 4: to go next door take this gas station, and he

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Speaker 4: was working there, and that's how I met him.

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Speaker 1: And how did your parents react to the fact that

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Speaker 1: you had a boyfriend? And what was dating like under

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Speaker 1: those circumstances where you're living at home and your parents

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Speaker 1: are relying so heavily on you.

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Speaker 4: Dating It was fine because I was out of school,

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Speaker 4: so it wasn't as though I had to focus on

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Speaker 4: my schoolwork or anything. But I think they would prefer

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Speaker 4: that I would marry an Asian person, so that was

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Speaker 4: probably their dislike.

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Speaker 3: How vocal was their disapproval.

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Speaker 4: Ever since I was a child, they always said, you

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Speaker 4: should marry somebody Asian that's going to understand our tradition,

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Speaker 4: our language, our culture, which I think is kind of common.

283
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Speaker 4: And I understood that. But you bring me to Florida

284
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Speaker 4: and there's not a lot of Chinese specifically, so it's

285
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Speaker 4: not like I'm in New York at California, so I

286
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Speaker 4: think that was unfair.

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Speaker 1: How do you know that they had reservations about him?

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Speaker 4: They repetitively said, if you dated an Asian person, this

289
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Speaker 4: person would understand. This is what you do with elderly

290
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Speaker 4: you respect them. So it was constantly you should have

291
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Speaker 4: married an Asian person so they would understand and we

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Speaker 4: could communicate also better with them.

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Speaker 1: So they don't speak much English at all, so they

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Speaker 1: can't really have a conversation with exactly, So you translate.

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Speaker 1: Is that what happens when you're all together?

296
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Speaker 4: I would translate, But honestly, they didn't talk that much

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Speaker 4: to each other. There still don't.

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Speaker 3: So you're kind of in the middle and meet your

299
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Speaker 3: parents and the authority. But now with your parents and

300
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Speaker 3: your husband again, you get stuck with that duty of

301
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Speaker 3: your this essential component for help your parents life.

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Speaker 4: That's my life.

303
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Speaker 3: So when you get married, since you were living with

304
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Speaker 3: your parents, was it now the four of you find

305
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Speaker 3: a place and move in together or was there some

306
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Speaker 3: time that you had just the two of you.

307
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Speaker 4: So I moved in with my fiance at the time

308
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Speaker 4: for less than a year, and then we bought a house,

309
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Speaker 4: and then maybe two months later they sold their house

310
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Speaker 4: and they were anxious to move in.

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Speaker 1: Did you and your husband talk about the fact that

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Speaker 1: your parents were coming to live with you and how

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Speaker 1: did he feel about all of them?

314
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Speaker 4: I told him at the beginning, I said, we're a

315
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Speaker 4: package deal. And I said, you know, I understand it's

316
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Speaker 4: not something you expected in the US, but I said

317
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Speaker 4: that this is going to happen, and if you can't

318
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Speaker 4: handle it, I understand. He was okay with it because

319
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Speaker 4: it would be also like live in babysitters.

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Speaker 3: So the four of you are living together, in what

321
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Speaker 3: ways does your husband take care of you?

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Speaker 4: He was comforting to me whenever I'm upset with them.

323
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Speaker 4: He's my best friend too, But I also didn't want

324
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Speaker 4: to bring too much to him. My problems of my

325
00:18:49,879 --> 00:18:55,280
Speaker 4: parents because that would make him upset. So I kind

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Speaker 4: of had to just keep it to myself. I would

327
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Speaker 4: speak to some friends, but really nobody understands. Nobody understands

328
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Speaker 4: that it's a lonely place to be when you're going

329
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Speaker 4: through something so intense your entire life and there's no

330
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Speaker 4: one who truly gets it. It is.

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Speaker 1: What I'm hearing in all of this is your isolation.

332
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Speaker 1: That you came here as a child, You took care

333
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Speaker 1: of your parents, You had to be what we call

334
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Speaker 1: a parentified child, which means you took on a lot

335
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Speaker 1: of responsibilities that normally would be in the adult sphere

336
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Speaker 1: as a child. And then you grow up, you experience

337
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Speaker 1: some period of time where you are abroad and you

338
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Speaker 1: get to kind of say, oh, this is who I am.

339
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Speaker 1: But then you're brought back into this right so you

340
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Speaker 1: got out of the isolation a little bit. You started

341
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Speaker 1: to make friends, you started to make connections, you started

342
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Speaker 1: to make a connection to yourself, and then it was about, oh,

343
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Speaker 1: I'm going to disappear again in the service of all

344
00:20:03,679 --> 00:20:07,119
Speaker 1: of my other responsibilities. And then you meet this guy

345
00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:12,999
Speaker 1: and you're kind of isolated again. Even though he loves you,

346
00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:17,720
Speaker 1: and he's very supportive because there's this whole family dynamic

347
00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,080
Speaker 1: where if you talk to him too much about your

348
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 1: frustration with your parents and he's living in the house

349
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Speaker 1: with your parents, that might cause some problems. And I

350
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Speaker 1: imagine it's isolating too, because you probably don't have a

351
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:34,519
Speaker 1: lot of privacy in terms of just being married and

352
00:20:34,560 --> 00:20:38,399
Speaker 1: being a parent without your parents interfering in some way.

353
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Speaker 1: So when your father was alive, what was their relationship

354
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:48,320
Speaker 1: like with your children, and did they respect you as

355
00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:51,439
Speaker 1: the mother of your children, meaning without interfering.

356
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Speaker 4: Well, things got worse after I had kids because they

357
00:20:56,639 --> 00:20:59,480
Speaker 4: took on the parent role because they were with them

358
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Speaker 4: all day. I think they really forget that they were

359
00:21:02,399 --> 00:21:07,200
Speaker 4: the caretakers and not the parents. Like nighttime, you're supposed

360
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,239
Speaker 4: to teach them to sue them to sleep. So I

361
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:15,039
Speaker 4: would wait outside their door. And this is Western style,

362
00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 4: so Western style doesn't connect with their Eastern style. So

363
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:22,840
Speaker 4: when my son was crying, I remember one time she

364
00:21:22,879 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 4: came down the hallway pushed me out of the way

365
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Speaker 4: to get to his room and pick him up. At

366
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Speaker 4: one point she would tell me, just because you gave

367
00:21:30,879 --> 00:21:34,039
Speaker 4: birth doesn't make your mother so that was very artful

368
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Speaker 4: to me.

369
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Speaker 1: So you know, these these comments are so devastatingly cruel.

370
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was very artful.

371
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:49,360
Speaker 1: Yeah.

372
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Speaker 4: Sometimes when she made these comments and my dad would

373
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Speaker 4: hear them, he was the one that would apologize to me.

374
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Speaker 4: He's like, you know, your mom didn't really mean that.

375
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Speaker 4: She's just saying that, so you know, don't don't be mad,

376
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 4: because he was always the one that apologized for her.

377
00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,600
Speaker 1: Did she make comments like that to your dad as well?

378
00:22:10,879 --> 00:22:16,159
Speaker 4: I'm sure. I'm very sure she did, because they're always

379
00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:20,759
Speaker 4: bickering and I would always hear my dad say the

380
00:22:20,800 --> 00:22:25,760
Speaker 4: first one says it wins, but in cantonese. So I'm

381
00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:31,560
Speaker 4: thinking she probably said something outrageous to him, and that's

382
00:22:31,639 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 4: probably why he submite that comment.

383
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Speaker 3: You know, Molly, I'm thinking about the fact that you

384
00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:44,359
Speaker 3: grew up with a mom who had really cruel comments

385
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Speaker 3: and a lot of them, and that I'm thinking of

386
00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,360
Speaker 3: you growing up and thinking, but this is just how

387
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,560
Speaker 3: it is. This is my life, this is my responsibility,

388
00:22:52,600 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: This is just how it is. Without feeling any avenue

389
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:02,279
Speaker 3: in which you get to rebel, find comfort for it,

390
00:23:02,439 --> 00:23:05,119
Speaker 3: get someone to tell you no, that's not okay, that's

391
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 3: not reasonable. You were so alone in this, and you

392
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:12,719
Speaker 3: probably were wondering for many years is she cruel? Or

393
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:15,639
Speaker 3: am I just sensitive? Or like, what's going on over there?

394
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:18,879
Speaker 3: And I think you're still living that life. Other than

395
00:23:18,919 --> 00:23:21,159
Speaker 3: that one year in Asia. You've been shackled all the

396
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:25,239
Speaker 3: time by expectations, by tradition, by culture, by obligation, whatever

397
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:29,639
Speaker 3: it is. And when you're shackled, you can say, wait,

398
00:23:29,679 --> 00:23:32,519
Speaker 3: this is not okay because you just don't feel like

399
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,239
Speaker 3: you have an option. Even today, it doesn't seem like

400
00:23:36,919 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 3: there's a lot of opportunity for you to really express

401
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:41,879
Speaker 3: get support, get vanidation.

402
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,320
Speaker 4: I did talk to my two cousins, and I was

403
00:23:45,399 --> 00:23:49,439
Speaker 4: hoping that they would understand, and it really are me

404
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 4: that they took her aside, and all they said to

405
00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,840
Speaker 4: me was just just let it go, Just forget about it.

406
00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 4: She's old, she has diabetes. I don't know what that

407
00:23:59,119 --> 00:24:01,440
Speaker 4: has to do with it, but she's old. Just let

408
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 4: it go. You're overthinking it, basically.

409
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: So they're referring to what to the comment, to the

410
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: comment that she made about the cause of your dad's suicide.

411
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 3: That's what they said, Yeah, just let it go.

412
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,959
Speaker 4: It's fine, Just that she's just old. She doesn't even

413
00:24:18,000 --> 00:24:18,959
Speaker 4: know what she's saying.

414
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:21,359
Speaker 1: She does know what she's saying because she's been saying

415
00:24:21,679 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 1: your whole life. This might have been sort of those

416
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:33,159
Speaker 1: comments on steroids. Yeah, but it wasn't out of character.

417
00:24:33,399 --> 00:24:34,039
Speaker 4: Now it's not.

418
00:24:34,439 --> 00:24:38,119
Speaker 1: It wasn't an isolated comment where you can say, well,

419
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,119
Speaker 1: maybe she's getting old and there's something going on neurologically

420
00:24:42,159 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 1: with her. This was pretty consistent with the way that

421
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,840
Speaker 1: she's spoken to your whole life. And what makes this

422
00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 1: even more painful is that it was your father who

423
00:24:57,639 --> 00:24:59,679
Speaker 1: would be the voice of reason in this who could

424
00:24:59,679 --> 00:25:02,999
Speaker 1: see you. He was the one who said, I'm sorry

425
00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 1: she said that, even if he didn't stand up to her,

426
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: he acknowledged that it was not okay what she said said.

427
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 1: And now this comment is about your father. So not

428
00:25:14,159 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 1: only is he not here as the one person who

429
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,280
Speaker 1: acknowledged that what she was saying was not okay, but

430
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:27,120
Speaker 1: he's not here and the comment is about your allie.

431
00:25:28,639 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 4: Yeah. And you know what the thing is, she never

432
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,719
Speaker 4: even apologized or anything. Because she doesn't apologize, that's just

433
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:39,320
Speaker 4: her thing, and he's not here to apologize for her anymore.

434
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,959
Speaker 4: So I had to actually confront her. So when she

435
00:25:43,159 --> 00:25:45,959
Speaker 4: said it, I was driving and she just made this

436
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 4: offhand comment when I was driving her to go shopping.

437
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:50,279
Speaker 4: It's like, who says that?

438
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:54,439
Speaker 1: So what happened right after she said that. It sounds

439
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: like you didn't react to it in the moment. It

440
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,959
Speaker 1: was probably quite shocking. But between the time of the

441
00:26:00,000 --> 00:26:02,759
Speaker 1: comment and two weeks later when you confronted her, the

442
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:04,439
Speaker 1: two of you pretended it didn't happen.

443
00:26:04,919 --> 00:26:08,359
Speaker 4: Well, that's very common with her. She'll say something very

444
00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 4: shocking and access though nothing ever happened. So I think

445
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,640
Speaker 4: I was still processing it because it's such a shocking

446
00:26:16,679 --> 00:26:20,479
Speaker 4: statement that anybody can make, especially to their child. I

447
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 4: can't even imagine myself making those comments to my child.

448
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 1: Did you tell your husband?

449
00:26:25,879 --> 00:26:28,919
Speaker 4: I told my husband, and he he he was just

450
00:26:29,159 --> 00:26:32,320
Speaker 4: he apologized. He's like, no, you didn't do anything like that.

451
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,799
Speaker 4: So he's very upset. But I told her not to

452
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 4: say anything because I really can't handle like my feud

453
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 4: with her and then him having a feud with her.

454
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,439
Speaker 4: So I said, please just don't talk to her because

455
00:26:46,919 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 4: I can't handle more conflict. It's just too much.

456
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,280
Speaker 3: There's a certain expectation that you have only that your

457
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,519
Speaker 3: role is always to mediate. Your role is always to

458
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 3: make sure everything's okay, and unfortunately, in this case and

459
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 3: maybe in others, what it did is it actually blocked

460
00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:09,280
Speaker 3: your husband from being able to be as supportive as

461
00:27:09,439 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 3: he wanted to be and as you needed him to be,

462
00:27:11,399 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 3: because if he had a feud with her over this

463
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,759
Speaker 3: as well, he would have been aligned with you. And

464
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 3: I think because you're so used to feeling the obligation

465
00:27:21,439 --> 00:27:25,200
Speaker 3: and responsibility to take care of the people around you,

466
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 3: you miss out on his being at your side, supporting you,

467
00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: getting the same message, and really feeling that you're not

468
00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 3: alone in this.

469
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 4: I guess I'm just afraid of a blow up because

470
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: he would be in her face and she wouldn't even

471
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 4: know what he's talking about. Maybe I just feel bad

472
00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:52,119
Speaker 4: for her because I've always been her protector, you know

473
00:27:52,439 --> 00:27:55,999
Speaker 4: so well, that's just my role, so it's hard for

474
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 4: me to let that go, especially if she's getting older.

475
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:03,199
Speaker 4: There's nobody else speaking up for her, so I feel bad.

476
00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,519
Speaker 1: You want to be her protector, but when someone offers

477
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: to protect you, you decline, So when your husband could

478
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 1: be there to protect you, you're worried that then you

479
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: will't be protecting your.

480
00:28:23,399 --> 00:28:25,439
Speaker 4: Mother, Eh, it's messed up.

481
00:28:27,280 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: Well, I think what it is it is the parentified

482
00:28:29,399 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 1: child again, is the child who feels that intense responsibility

483
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,359
Speaker 1: that I have to protect my parents from all of

484
00:28:36,399 --> 00:28:39,520
Speaker 1: the things in this new land where they don't understand anything.

485
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 1: I have to help them acclimate. I have to protect

486
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,200
Speaker 1: them from everything. And then you become an adult and

487
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: you don't realize that you might need protecting too, And

488
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: so I wonder, what are you actually protecting her from

489
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 1: from being hurt? Because she lives in this bubble where

490
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: everybody speaks for her, drives her places, you know, and

491
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 1: does everything for her and keep her in this bubble.

492
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 1: And I guess that's just my role is to continue

493
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: this keeping her in this bubble, because I'm not really

494
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: sure how to do anything else other than that.

495
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,759
Speaker 3: But the unfortunate part of that is that you didn't

496
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 3: have that as a kid. You had to squelch your

497
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 3: own feelings because there was no outlet for them. There's

498
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 3: no point in recognizing how upset you are, how hurt

499
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,239
Speaker 3: you are, how limited you feel, because there's nothing you

500
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 3: can do about it. So you just are not used

501
00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 3: to asking yourself, But what about my feelings, not just

502
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 3: what about hers? What about mine? And I think that

503
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: still carries over that her needs loom so large in

504
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 3: front of you, and your needs are going to have

505
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 3: to wait, and they've been waiting for a long time now.

506
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 1: And when I think about your feelings that have been squelched,

507
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,200
Speaker 1: your father died, and he died in a really, really

508
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 1: painful way. Suicide is one of these things where families

509
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: often have so many questions, what happened? What was really

510
00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 1: going on? Could we have seen signs of this? Was

511
00:30:16,400 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: that a cry for help? That's what happens in families

512
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,279
Speaker 1: with suicides so often. And then on top of that,

513
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,759
Speaker 1: the person isn't there anymore. So you've lost the person

514
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:28,959
Speaker 1: that you love. And I wonder how you have before

515
00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: this comment, how you grieved your father's death.

516
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 4: I didn't know that it was gonna happen because he's

517
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 4: just always so quiet. You just never know what's going

518
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 4: on with him. All he does was eat, read his newspaper,

519
00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:49,680
Speaker 4: watch TV, and that's pretty much his basic life. And

520
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: my mom always did the talking, so you always know

521
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,479
Speaker 4: about her, but you never really know about him unless

522
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 4: you ask him. And sometimes when I asked him, she

523
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 4: would speak for him, and I would have to remind her,

524
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 4: like I'm not asking you, I'm asking him. I guess

525
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 4: maybe I don't know why he did that, Mollie.

526
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 1: I'm not asking why he did it, although I'm pretty

527
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:15,800
Speaker 1: sure it's not the answer your mother gave you. But

528
00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:19,440
Speaker 1: what I'm asking is how you grieved the loss of

529
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: your time.

530
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,239
Speaker 4: Oh, I agreed me. I just cried for a long time,

531
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 4: mostly my car when I was driving to work.

532
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 1: So by yourself, did your husband ever hold you or

533
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,640
Speaker 1: see you cry?

534
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 4: May be able shy about my feelings and crying in

535
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 4: front of him because I didn't want him to make

536
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:45,960
Speaker 4: him feel bad.

537
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not shy, Mollie. That's that I need to

538
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,759
Speaker 3: make sure everyone else's feelings are okay. Mine don't matter,

539
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,759
Speaker 3: and I'm the protective for everyone, but no one's the

540
00:31:56,800 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 3: protective for me. When you grow up and you can't

541
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 3: express your feelings, and if you do, you don't get validation,

542
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 3: you get criticism for it, you learn pretty quickly not

543
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: to express your feelings, and you can carry that into

544
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,759
Speaker 3: adulthood so that even though there is now someone in

545
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: your life who wants to be there for you, who

546
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:16,760
Speaker 3: wants to protect you, who wants to help serve your feelings,

547
00:32:16,760 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 3: and you're not fully letting him.

548
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:22,719
Speaker 4: Isn't it okay just to cry privately or feel so privately.

549
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 3: There's a difference between having some private moments to mourn

550
00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 3: and feeling like there's no one who can really understand

551
00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:33,160
Speaker 3: you or support you, and that's why you're crying alone

552
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: in your car.

553
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:36,759
Speaker 1: I think what's going on is you felt like your

554
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: morning would be a burden on your husband. So it

555
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 1: wasn't just I'm choosing to grieve in the car, which

556
00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: of course people do. It was I'm grieving in the

557
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,040
Speaker 1: car because if I do it anywhere else, I will

558
00:32:52,080 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 1: upset other people. I will be a burden to them.

559
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, I can see that. I mean, I didn't want

560
00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,479
Speaker 4: him to feel like he had to cheer me up

561
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 4: or something.

562
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 3: So why But this is exactly this is what it's correct.

563
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: What Laurie's saying that is this feeling of asking anyone

564
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,840
Speaker 3: you have a response to your feelings is burdening them.

565
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,519
Speaker 1: I think in some ways this is how you felt

566
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: as a child, that the burden was on you to

567
00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:24,519
Speaker 1: make sure your parents were happy, and you didn't like

568
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 1: that for the reasons that make sense, right, you were

569
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: a kid, wasn't your job, And as an adult, you

570
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:35,000
Speaker 1: don't want to put your husband in that situation because

571
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:40,959
Speaker 1: your idea of giving support is wrapped up in this

572
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: experience as a child. And so now when you think

573
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: about your husband having that responsibility for you, you have

574
00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: negative associations with it, as opposed to the positive associations

575
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 1: of what it means to be close to somebody, what

576
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,479
Speaker 1: it means to sit with them in their pain, what

577
00:33:57,520 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 1: it means to see them in their loss, in their grief.

578
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: That's intimacy. Growing up, that wasn't intimacy. It was responsibility

579
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,960
Speaker 1: and burden. And you're confusing that with what it would

580
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: be if your husband gave that to you. If he

581
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:13,920
Speaker 1: gave that to you, it wouldn't be responsibility and burden,

582
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: it would be love.

583
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 4: I guess I didn't want to pull him into my

584
00:34:20,320 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 4: back hole.

585
00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 3: Usually a spouse who loves you wants to be able

586
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:29,640
Speaker 3: to be there for you, maybe not fall into a

587
00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 3: black hole, but to be able to pull you out

588
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:34,759
Speaker 3: of one.

589
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just I guess my thought is like, well,

590
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,160
Speaker 4: he didn't ask for this, so I don't want to

591
00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 4: make his day bad or something I don't know.

592
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:48,920
Speaker 3: It was just if he lost a parent and he

593
00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,759
Speaker 3: was really upset and he wanted your support, would you

594
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 3: in any way fear like, oh he's making my day

595
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,320
Speaker 3: difficult now, Like would that even cross your mind?

596
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 4: No? No, I'm with this right.

597
00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: Because you love him.

598
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,800
Speaker 4: I guess maybe if she didn't live here, maybe I

599
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 4: would turn to them and more. But I feel like,

600
00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:14,400
Speaker 4: if she's here, I have to be stronger.

601
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:21,239
Speaker 3: Why that's the most important reason mother to turn to him,

602
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 3: because she's there, and that's why you need his support.

603
00:35:24,720 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 4: I think I just feel sorry for her. She is

604
00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 4: like nobody.

605
00:35:30,240 --> 00:35:31,920
Speaker 3: It's one of the things you feel is sorry.

606
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:32,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

607
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,920
Speaker 1: I think you have a lot of anger and you

608
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: have a lot of guilt, and that's a perfect storm

609
00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:45,000
Speaker 1: of things to come together to make you feel like

610
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm going to do with these things.

611
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:48,280
Speaker 1: They're so big.

612
00:35:48,720 --> 00:35:51,280
Speaker 3: And I think that's the theme of what's going on

613
00:35:51,720 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 3: with a lot of people in your family, or this

614
00:35:53,840 --> 00:35:57,799
Speaker 3: feeling of being trapped. So your parents brought you here,

615
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 3: but now they're trapped because without you they can't manage,

616
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 3: and you feel trapped because now you're the only one

617
00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 3: who can help them. Manage, and so now you feel trapped,

618
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: and your husband might feel a little bit trapped because

619
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 3: you're the package deal. He signed up for it and

620
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 3: all of that. But you know he wants to help you.

621
00:36:15,240 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 3: He sees what goes on, he sees that you get

622
00:36:17,240 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 3: upset sometimes, but he's not free to be there for you,

623
00:36:21,240 --> 00:36:23,080
Speaker 3: to support you in the way that he would like to.

624
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 3: So there is a lot of feeling of helplessness, of

625
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 3: feeling trapped like this. This is a terrible situation and

626
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 3: there's nothing that can be done to change any of it.

627
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,440
Speaker 4: It's pretty much explains it.

628
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: I'm wondering about where you are with your children and

629
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,520
Speaker 1: what's the day to day like with that. And you

630
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 1: smile then and I said, your children. So tell me

631
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 1: about your children. Tell me about your relationships with them.

632
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,560
Speaker 4: My son just learned to drive these sixteen. He's really

633
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 4: a good kid. My daughter, she has a disability, she

634
00:36:56,520 --> 00:37:00,440
Speaker 4: goes to a charter school. She's doing well too. And

635
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,920
Speaker 4: I think sometimes it's hard because they see the tension

636
00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 4: between me and my mom.

637
00:37:06,240 --> 00:37:09,960
Speaker 1: What was the kid's reactions to their grandfather death? Did

638
00:37:10,000 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 1: they know that it was a suicide? And they must

639
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,880
Speaker 1: have been very close with him because your mom and

640
00:37:15,920 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: your father were the carecactors for your kids when they're

641
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 1: growing up.

642
00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 4: My daughter, I think because of her disability, she doesn't understand.

643
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 4: My son took it really hard. He is very close

644
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 4: to my dad, but I guess he just kind of

645
00:37:30,840 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 4: pushes it aside. I told him, I said, you know,

646
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:38,840
Speaker 4: he just wasn't happy he took his life, and we

647
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:43,320
Speaker 4: don't know what's the reason. We may never know, but

648
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 4: it's not anybody's fault. So when I told him, you know,

649
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,280
Speaker 4: if he has any questions, he can always ask me.

650
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 4: But I don't know what to tell him. I don't

651
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:53,800
Speaker 4: know myself.

652
00:37:55,720 --> 00:37:58,760
Speaker 1: That's beautiful how you talk to him about it. It

653
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:03,720
Speaker 1: was so honest and so authentic and unlike your mother's coment,

654
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 1: so true. We don't know he was struggling. We don't

655
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 1: know why, and this is so hard, and for.

656
00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: A family that doesn't talk to give him permission to

657
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,320
Speaker 3: ask about it and say, if things come up, you

658
00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 3: can ask. It's such an important edition that you put

659
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 3: in there.

660
00:38:23,240 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 4: Well, what I did learn is that I don't want

661
00:38:25,720 --> 00:38:28,480
Speaker 4: to be like her, so I try to be the opposite.

662
00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: You're trying to give your kids a lot of what

663
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 1: you needed as a child.

664
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 3: Probably, Man, how old is your mom seventy seven? Are

665
00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 3: there any options for her to live anywhere else? I

666
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: did bring that up, well, not whether she would agree

667
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:48,280
Speaker 3: to it, but what are they theoretically the options?

668
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,920
Speaker 4: I told her the best option is to live with

669
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 4: my aunt, who's also a widow, and they call each

670
00:38:54,360 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 4: other like ten times a day, and I said, it's perfect.

671
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 4: You guys both you know, can gossip and talk and

672
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 4: you know, do whatever you guys do instead in person.

673
00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 4: And I would just pay her rent, but she doesn't

674
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,880
Speaker 4: want to do that because she is very comfortable and

675
00:39:12,960 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 4: set in her way.

676
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:16,040
Speaker 1: Does your aunt live by herself?

677
00:39:16,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Speaker 4: She does. She lives by herself.

678
00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:24,040
Speaker 1: So that's very interesting because what you've said is that

679
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:30,240
Speaker 1: you grew up hearing that dutiful children have their parents

680
00:39:30,240 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 1: live with them throughout the lifespan, and yet your cousins said, hey, mom,

681
00:39:37,240 --> 00:39:41,400
Speaker 1: here's a great apartment for you, and your aunt seems

682
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: to be quite content living the way she does.

683
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 3: I guess the way you're formulating this in your head

684
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 3: is that, well, that wouldn't happen because my mom wouldn't

685
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,880
Speaker 3: agree to go live with my aunt. However, right now,

686
00:39:56,920 --> 00:40:00,720
Speaker 3: what's happening is that you are agreeing for your mom

687
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,800
Speaker 3: to live with you. It's your home. I'm not sure

688
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:10,040
Speaker 3: you see that this is actually not her call to

689
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 3: make necessarily, but yours.

690
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 4: Kick her out.

691
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 3: Look, you say that very harshly. I would maybe think

692
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: more of ease her out. I'm not even saying that's

693
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 3: the thing, but I'm just pointing out that you're the

694
00:40:22,240 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 3: one who has the control or the power of that.

695
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 1: Decision, and there are options in between that, like, if

696
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 1: you're going to live here, we need to make this

697
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: a harmonious place, right There are a lot of options.

698
00:40:37,720 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 1: Whereas you're presenting this as this is the situation, it's

699
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 1: immutable and I just have to suck it up and

700
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,240
Speaker 1: find a way to deal with it. I want to

701
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: ask you one more thing about what's happened since your

702
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: mom made that comment. What did she say to you

703
00:40:55,560 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: in that conversation.

704
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 4: So she made it sound like she knew the reason

705
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 4: like he left it in the suicide note. There was

706
00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 4: a suicide suicide note.

707
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 3: Which you didn't see, only shaded yes.

708
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:13,200
Speaker 4: And I was talking to my therapist about that note

709
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 4: and having it translated, and she asked me if I

710
00:41:16,960 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 4: really want to do that, do you kind of? I

711
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 4: guess I'm scared too. I feel like waiver? You know?

712
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 4: Should I? Should I not? If I know? And if

713
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,800
Speaker 4: it's true, can I you know, can I deal with that?

714
00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:40,840
Speaker 3: And if it's not, I guess.

715
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 4: If it's not, it's fine. But if it is, because

716
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 4: why does she just suddenly say that too?

717
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:49,640
Speaker 3: But is there a value add in translating the note?

718
00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 3: There's a downside potentially if that's what's in there. But

719
00:41:52,360 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 3: is there a.

720
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 4: Upside maybe that you can say, don't blame yourself selves.

721
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 4: He loved us and it's not your fault.

722
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:08,560
Speaker 1: So you know, you said that your dad was somebody

723
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: who you didn't know a lot about because your mother

724
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,360
Speaker 1: spoke for him. Whenever you tried to ask how he

725
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 1: was doing, she would answer for him. He was very quiet.

726
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: Can you imagine a scenario in which your father suffered

727
00:42:25,440 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: from depression?

728
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:33,760
Speaker 4: He was just a quiet person. So I don't know

729
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 4: if like depression meant quiet or quiet meant depression.

730
00:42:38,480 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: I have a question about what happened right after his death,

731
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:44,520
Speaker 1: because she brought this up about a year or two later.

732
00:42:45,680 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 1: When somebody kills themselves, often people start to wonder they

733
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: talk why did this happen? What was the conversation in

734
00:42:54,720 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 1: your family? Did you and your mother or your cousins,

735
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: or your aunts or anybody have a conversation around just

736
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 1: why you thought this had happened. Did you ever say

737
00:43:05,080 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: to your mom at that time? What did he say

738
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 1: in the note?

739
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:12,160
Speaker 4: Did you ever she told me it wasn't my business.

740
00:43:12,720 --> 00:43:17,040
Speaker 4: If she really didn't say anything like why she would

741
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 4: just tell my aunts like, oh, I think he wasn't

742
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 4: feeling good.

743
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:22,840
Speaker 1: But there was a note, and she didn't share it

744
00:43:22,840 --> 00:43:25,080
Speaker 1: with your aunts. She didn't share it with your cousin,

745
00:43:25,200 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: She didn't share it with anybody.

746
00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:26,960
Speaker 4: Buddy.

747
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 1: What strikes me about her comment is that I think

748
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:37,400
Speaker 1: it's really her very mixed up and indirect way of

749
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,840
Speaker 1: telling you that she is unhappy with the care that

750
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: you're giving her, the amount of attention that you're paying

751
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: to her. Yeah, and so she said something quite provocative,

752
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 1: your father wasn't getting this from you, and he killed himself.

753
00:43:57,560 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: I think she was really speaking for herself, which was

754
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,920
Speaker 1: I'm not getting this and I am furious.

755
00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could see that. I can see that I

756
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 4: do so much for her. She doesn't drive, so I

757
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 4: drive her everywhere. I make her doctor's appointments, I do

758
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:20,880
Speaker 4: in a prescription, I buy stuff for her, I take

759
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 4: her out to eat, take her to my aunt's house.

760
00:44:23,720 --> 00:44:27,320
Speaker 4: Everything you can think of, I do. I even did

761
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:30,200
Speaker 4: it after my father passed away, because he was driver

762
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,120
Speaker 4: and everything. So I picked up the slack where he

763
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 4: left off. So how I'm not doing things for her?

764
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 4: I mean, that's a private cludler.

765
00:44:41,280 --> 00:44:43,840
Speaker 1: Here's something that happens when reality is distorted from a

766
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:47,320
Speaker 1: very young age. So your mother says, you can't do

767
00:44:47,440 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 1: ballet because you're overweight. Nothing's good enough. Even if you're

768
00:44:51,080 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: doing something, you did it wrong, And so reality gets

769
00:44:54,520 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 1: distorted and you're saying, look at all these things I

770
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:01,280
Speaker 1: did for her, how could she possibly think that? Yeah,

771
00:45:01,600 --> 00:45:04,680
Speaker 1: And you're trying to reconcile reality, which is you do

772
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:10,719
Speaker 1: a tremendous number of things for her. With her way

773
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 1: of going through life, which is nothing measures up. She's

774
00:45:13,920 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 1: disappointed in everyone and everything. And so you're never going

775
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:22,920
Speaker 1: to win that case. You know, Exhibit A, Exhibit B,

776
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: Exhibit C. It doesn't matter. You will lose that case

777
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 1: in the jury of your mother.

778
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 4: You're absolutely right.

779
00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 3: One of the reasons you'll lose the case is because

780
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 3: in your mother's head, your feelings and needs are not

781
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 3: a mediating fact. It wasn't what she's a child, she

782
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 3: wants to do balleta, to go have some fun, she's

783
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 3: here on duty all the time. It never a factored in.

784
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 3: So that's why you can never win the case. There's

785
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,360
Speaker 3: no mediation there for your needs, your feelings, your side

786
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 3: of things, only what she needs.

787
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 4: You're right, and that's why I feel as though the

788
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:05,000
Speaker 4: purpose of my life was to serve her, in suppose,

789
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 4: and there's like nothing else.

790
00:46:08,120 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: So when you confronted her, did you tell her how

791
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 1: much that hurt you?

792
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:19,520
Speaker 4: No? I didn't tell her. Why not, just because I

793
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:26,240
Speaker 4: think it's logical. You know, you think if you accuse

794
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 4: somebody of you know, hurting your father, that it's logical

795
00:46:32,240 --> 00:46:37,680
Speaker 4: that it's painful that I shouldn't have to say that, right, right.

796
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:39,920
Speaker 3: But you didn't say it because it never mattered to

797
00:46:39,960 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 3: her whether it was hurtful to you or not.

798
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 4: So earlier this year I said to her, I said,

799
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,320
Speaker 4: why would you say something like that? And she gave

800
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 4: me gibbers. She goes, I know you didn't do anything.

801
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:55,480
Speaker 4: It was all my fault. Can we just go back

802
00:46:55,520 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 4: to the way it was. It was just so nonchalant,

803
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,800
Speaker 4: you know, like, let's just put it under the rug

804
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,800
Speaker 4: like it never happened. And I just couldn't do it.

805
00:47:05,160 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 4: I just couldn't do it.

806
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:11,160
Speaker 1: The all my fault. I wonder if there's a part

807
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:13,960
Speaker 1: of her that feels like she's to blame.

808
00:47:14,080 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, I probably think it is, because if I was

809
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 4: my dad, I probably will have left her. She would

810
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 4: accuse him of having an a fair. My dad never

811
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 4: left the house. He didn't speak English on leave the house,

812
00:47:30,280 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 4: having in the fair taking money from their account. That

813
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 4: is not even believable at all.

814
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 3: You said that your mother behaves like and probably believes

815
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:47,440
Speaker 3: that your purpose in life is to serve her. And

816
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:52,600
Speaker 3: I want to know whether you still believe that, or

817
00:47:52,640 --> 00:47:57,160
Speaker 3: whether you're willing to put that aside and that and

818
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,200
Speaker 3: redefine what your purpose is in a way that doesn't

819
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:03,800
Speaker 3: limit you to serving her.

820
00:48:03,960 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 4: I think it's hard now to put that aside, especially

821
00:48:07,720 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 4: since she's older.

822
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:11,240
Speaker 3: But this is what happens in your thinking, Molly. It

823
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 3: goes to either I serve her completely or I'm abandoning her.

824
00:48:15,080 --> 00:48:18,280
Speaker 3: I'm not suggesting that at all. I'm saying that that purpose,

825
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 3: that number one directive of must serve mum, is what

826
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,440
Speaker 3: she thinks your number one directive in life should be.

827
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 3: And you live like that in essence, and I'm asking

828
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 3: if you're willing to adjust that, not abandon her, but

829
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 3: adjust it so that it is not your sole or

830
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 3: primary purpose in life and maybe only a minor secondary one.

831
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 4: I would like to adjust that. I think the only

832
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 4: way I can adjust it is if she leaves, because

833
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,200
Speaker 4: when she's here it's a constant reminder of all the

834
00:48:55,320 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 4: hurt and anger and burden that she is on me.

835
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 4: Maybe I can ask my cousin if she can move

836
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 4: in with my aunt, and then he can ask my

837
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 4: aunt about it.

838
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:23,240
Speaker 3: Molly. We do have some advice for you, and it

839
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 3: comes from the place in which we feel like you've

840
00:49:26,480 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 3: been trapped really your whole life, and it's time for

841
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 3: you to escape the trap. It's time for you to

842
00:49:33,120 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 3: be free to truly parent the way you want, attend

843
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:41,360
Speaker 3: to your needs the way you want, and not to

844
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 3: have to live with a parent breathing down your neck

845
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:48,040
Speaker 3: who's a cruel parent because you're no longer a child.

846
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,480
Speaker 3: You feel really trapped. Because our duty is for her

847
00:49:51,480 --> 00:49:54,280
Speaker 3: to live with us. But you also know how to

848
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 3: go against that expectation because you ended up marrying someone

849
00:49:59,240 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 3: who wasn't Chinese, so you've already done a bit of that.

850
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 3: So what we want you to do this week if

851
00:50:07,040 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: you want you to have a talk with your mom

852
00:50:09,400 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: in which you let her know that Mum, I don't

853
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,360
Speaker 3: think this is working well at all. You're living here,

854
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: it's tense, our relationship has gone downhill. We're barely speaking,

855
00:50:23,840 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 3: and I don't think it's good for either of us,

856
00:50:25,400 --> 00:50:28,520
Speaker 3: and it's not good for our relationship. And so I

857
00:50:28,600 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: want you to go and live with that aunt and

858
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 3: I will continue doing things for you. I'll take care

859
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 3: of you in most of the ways that I already do.

860
00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 3: I'm not abandoning you, but I want you to live there,

861
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 3: and we want you to also say to her and

862
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:50,560
Speaker 3: Mum to be clear, if that doesn't work out, we'll

863
00:50:50,600 --> 00:50:53,960
Speaker 3: find another arrangement. I think that's the best option for you,

864
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: but if that doesn't work out, we'll find another option.

865
00:50:56,600 --> 00:50:58,480
Speaker 3: It might not be as good, just so that she's

866
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 3: not too motivated to go and sabotage that option, and

867
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 3: once she is moved, then you will cont I need

868
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 3: to do for her what you can do for her.

869
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: But if she's cruel to you at that point, then

870
00:51:13,960 --> 00:51:16,840
Speaker 3: you get to say to her, Mum, I am doing

871
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 3: these things for you because I know you need me

872
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,800
Speaker 3: to do these things for you. But if you keep

873
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 3: being cruel to me, I will not be that motivated

874
00:51:26,240 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 3: to do them. You have to be kinder to me.

875
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 3: We want you to set limits without going forward with

876
00:51:33,240 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 3: the cruelty that you don't have to put up with it.

877
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 3: You don't have to absorb it. You don't have to

878
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 3: hear those horrible things that you can't then unhear.

879
00:51:47,160 --> 00:51:48,560
Speaker 4: Surely she would refuse.

880
00:51:50,720 --> 00:51:53,040
Speaker 3: Okay, I'm glad you brought that up, because it's not

881
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:57,720
Speaker 3: her call, Molly, and that has been part of your problem.

882
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 3: Your problem is you are convinced that the cage you

883
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:04,840
Speaker 3: see around you is real, and it's not because it

884
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:08,120
Speaker 3: is your call. Whether she lives with you, it is

885
00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: your home.

886
00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 4: What I call the cops if she refuses to move.

887
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:20,400
Speaker 1: I don't think we're there yet. I think that she

888
00:52:21,240 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: is going to unleash her cruelty on you if she

889
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:29,120
Speaker 1: is displeased with this, and she will be displeased with this,

890
00:52:30,800 --> 00:52:33,520
Speaker 1: so you want to prepare for that. If she's already

891
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: at a ten, it's going to go to one hundred

892
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:40,680
Speaker 1: very quickly. Or she will do the opposite, and she

893
00:52:40,720 --> 00:52:44,560
Speaker 1: will do everything to be incredibly kind to you and say, look,

894
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:47,320
Speaker 1: no we get along, well, look this works out great,

895
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: and she'll try to get in your good graces. Neither

896
00:52:53,240 --> 00:52:57,840
Speaker 1: of those things changes the fact that you deserve to

897
00:52:57,880 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 1: live your life. And I want to emphasize again, you

898
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,120
Speaker 1: are not abandoning her. You're still going to be doing

899
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: all the things that you do for her. You know

900
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:10,600
Speaker 1: what you want, but you're so afraid to give yourself

901
00:53:11,240 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: something in life. It's true, it's all about everybody else.

902
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:20,200
Speaker 1: And this is not abandoning your mother. This is where

903
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:23,600
Speaker 1: you have to really reframe this and change your mindset

904
00:53:23,720 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 1: that has been so indoctrinated in you from a very

905
00:53:26,720 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 1: early age that your purpose in life is to serve

906
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: your parents. You're still going to be doing a tremendous

907
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: amount for your mom.

908
00:53:34,240 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 3: I'm feeling resentful about it.

909
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, all you're saying is this arrangement is not working.

910
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 1: The thing that I think is hard for you to

911
00:53:47,360 --> 00:53:54,440
Speaker 1: wrap your mind and heart around is this idea that

912
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:59,440
Speaker 1: you're not just abandoning your mom, but you're abandoning your culture,

913
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: and we don't want to lose sight of a cultural piece,

914
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:09,400
Speaker 1: which is yes, there is a very strong mandate to

915
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:14,400
Speaker 1: take care of your parents, but that doesn't mean that

916
00:54:14,440 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 1: when you are subjected to such extreme cruelty on a

917
00:54:18,080 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: regular basis, that you can't help to define for yourself

918
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: what taking care of your mom means. So you're still

919
00:54:27,400 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 1: protecting that cultural heritage.

920
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:34,120
Speaker 3: We do want you to have your husband on stand

921
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:37,760
Speaker 3: by it before and after that conversation, because you will

922
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 3: need someone who you convent to or cry to, or

923
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,640
Speaker 3: will talk you down about the guilts and say no, no, no, no,

924
00:54:43,680 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 3: You've been an amazing daughter. You deserve to have a life.

925
00:54:46,040 --> 00:54:49,040
Speaker 3: We deserve to have a life. But you will need

926
00:54:49,600 --> 00:54:53,080
Speaker 3: support leading up to it and certainly right after.

927
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 1: Okay, what is the worst case scenario of having that

928
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:00,320
Speaker 1: conversation with your.

929
00:55:00,240 --> 00:55:05,120
Speaker 4: Mother by telling me I'm like a horrible daughter, I'm useless.

930
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, she will, yep, she'll tell you all that.

931
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even know why ever keep birth to you?

932
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 4: You're just horrible.

933
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:20,120
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it is very difficult to set limits

934
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 3: with somebody who's treating you very poorly when they don't

935
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,480
Speaker 3: think they're treating you poorly because they look at you like,

936
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: what are you talking about? Your being the terrible person.

937
00:55:30,240 --> 00:55:34,000
Speaker 3: Now it's not exactly gaslighting, because that's her perception, but

938
00:55:34,080 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 3: it is very bizarre world in the sense of no,

939
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 3: you are the one that's put up with her cruelty.

940
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:46,760
Speaker 3: Making it stop is not cruel Making somebody who treats

941
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,480
Speaker 3: you very poorly stop doing it is not a cruelty

942
00:55:50,720 --> 00:55:53,680
Speaker 3: on your part. It's essential.

943
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 4: I know, I kind of knew it. It's been there.

944
00:55:58,960 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 4: I know she has to leave. I just always procrastinated.

945
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 3: And now you have a week.

946
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,600
Speaker 1: Part two of the advice is we want to talk

947
00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:15,120
Speaker 1: about the grieving that you're doing and the grieving that

948
00:56:15,160 --> 00:56:17,840
Speaker 1: maybe still needs to be done for the loss of

949
00:56:17,880 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: your father. And you are talking about how you go

950
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 1: in the car and you cry in the car and

951
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:28,960
Speaker 1: you don't really share your loss with him. So we

952
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: want you to share your grief and loss with him

953
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:37,280
Speaker 1: even a little bit. So instead of pushing away the

954
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:41,080
Speaker 1: very thing you wanted so badly as a child, you

955
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:42,880
Speaker 1: have it right here, and we want you to taste

956
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: it a little bit. And so we want you to

957
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,320
Speaker 1: say to him, I still think about my dad a lot.

958
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:49,440
Speaker 1: I'm so sad about my dad. I miss my dad.

959
00:56:49,560 --> 00:56:52,600
Speaker 1: Here's what's going on, and have him be there. That's

960
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: part of the grieving, And the other part of the

961
00:56:54,160 --> 00:56:57,520
Speaker 1: grieving is we feel like you need the truth about

962
00:56:57,520 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: what happened with your father in as much as you

963
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:03,120
Speaker 1: can get it, and we feel like that note is

964
00:57:03,240 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 1: very important. So reading that note will be very painful,

965
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:13,240
Speaker 1: but it won't be as painful as not knowing the truth.

966
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 4: I think he left two notes because one, she says

967
00:57:17,320 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 4: she found in the medicine bottle, and then when I

968
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,440
Speaker 4: went to go pick up because he had committed suicide

969
00:57:23,480 --> 00:57:26,520
Speaker 4: in this car, and there was another note when I

970
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 4: went to go pick up the stuff from the sheriff's office.

971
00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:33,360
Speaker 4: I have another one. I don't know if it's duplicated.

972
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:35,800
Speaker 3: But you haven't had the one you have translated correct.

973
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 1: So what we'd like you to do this week is

974
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:41,720
Speaker 1: have the conversation with your mother, let us know how

975
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:45,840
Speaker 1: that felt, not just what happened, but how it felt

976
00:57:45,840 --> 00:57:51,160
Speaker 1: for you, and then what arrangements have been made, And

977
00:57:51,200 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 1: we'd like you to share a little bit of your

978
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: grief with your husband so that you're not hiding that

979
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: piece of you from him. And we would like you

980
00:58:00,320 --> 00:58:04,320
Speaker 1: to see if you can investigate options for getting the

981
00:58:04,440 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: letter translated by somebody who is not involved with your family,

982
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: so that you could tell us what it was like

983
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: for you to really find out directly what your father

984
00:58:16,920 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 1: left behind.

985
00:58:18,200 --> 00:58:20,920
Speaker 3: And if you do get it translated, Molly, we would

986
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,840
Speaker 3: like you to read the translations with your husband at

987
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 3: your side. You will need that support.

988
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm afraid that it's in there, but okay.

989
00:58:33,680 --> 00:58:36,520
Speaker 1: So the thing is you talk about being afraid of

990
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:42,400
Speaker 1: what's in there, but I think what's even scarier is

991
00:58:42,440 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: that if you don't find out what's in there, you

992
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: will live with the pain of wondering.

993
00:58:50,320 --> 00:58:53,920
Speaker 4: You're right, Okay, all right, all right, thank you so much.

994
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 3: Molly has been in prison her entire life. Inservitude really

995
00:59:05,560 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 3: to her mom, to her dad in that role that

996
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:11,320
Speaker 3: she had to play. She then became an adult, moved out,

997
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,400
Speaker 3: moved in with her husband, and moved to prison in.

998
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: With her She doesn't realize that she is free. That

999
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: happens so often where people are imprisoned as children and

1000
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:24,480
Speaker 1: then they grow up and they don't realize that they

1001
00:59:24,520 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: are their own jailers now, and we kept saying to her,

1002
00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 1: it's your call whether she lives with you, and I

1003
00:59:30,320 --> 00:59:32,080
Speaker 1: think that's going to be a big shift for her.

1004
00:59:32,400 --> 00:59:34,280
Speaker 1: And the other part of it is that I really

1005
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: want her to do some grieving because her dad was

1006
00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:43,040
Speaker 1: the parent who saw her, who noticed that the mother

1007
00:59:43,200 --> 00:59:45,160
Speaker 1: was talking to her in a way that was abusive,

1008
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,680
Speaker 1: and I think she lost her ally when he died,

1009
00:59:50,400 --> 00:59:54,320
Speaker 1: and in such a tragic way. So I really hope

1010
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:56,480
Speaker 1: that she can talk to her husband about her grief,

1011
00:59:56,480 --> 00:59:58,960
Speaker 1: and I hope that she can have the courage to

1012
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:02,000
Speaker 1: translate that letter so that she has the truth once

1013
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:11,240
Speaker 1: and for all. You're listening to Dear Therapists from My

1014
01:00:11,360 --> 01:00:26,320
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. We'll be back after a quick break. So guy,

1015
01:00:26,360 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: we heard back from Mollie. And to be honest, this

1016
01:00:30,600 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: is one where I think maybe people don't realize that

1017
01:00:33,760 --> 01:00:38,920
Speaker 1: as therapists, we're really rooting for people, and with a

1018
01:00:38,960 --> 01:00:41,720
Speaker 1: delicate situation like this, sometimes we can be a little

1019
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 1: bit apprehensive about what might happen. And this is one

1020
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:49,240
Speaker 1: of those situations where I really want to hear what happened,

1021
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: and I'm also a little bit nervous, quite frankly to

1022
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: hear what happened.

1023
01:00:53,720 --> 01:00:56,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, anything we would have suggested that we think would

1024
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 3: have been useful would have been painful and difficult to do.

1025
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 3: And really hoping it went well because it's going to

1026
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 3: be painful one way or the other.

1027
01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 1: All right, well, let's listen to it.

1028
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 5: Hi, Lurie and Guy. I just want to keep you

1029
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:14,040
Speaker 5: an update on my homework. My friend translated the suicide note.

1030
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 5: She told me that his mental and physical health was

1031
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 5: not improving, so he decided to take it upon himself

1032
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,640
Speaker 5: to make this decision to take his life, and he

1033
01:01:26,680 --> 01:01:29,720
Speaker 5: didn't want to be a burden to his family. Number

1034
01:01:29,760 --> 01:01:32,600
Speaker 5: two is leaning on my husband. I have been doing

1035
01:01:32,640 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 5: that a lot more often now, so that's been going well.

1036
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 5: Number three is getting my mom out. I have had

1037
01:01:41,280 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 5: some guilt in doing that, but I know that just

1038
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 5: to have her leave is the best thing. I went

1039
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:51,840
Speaker 5: to her on Sunday morning and I asked I told

1040
01:01:51,920 --> 01:01:55,480
Speaker 5: her that I was really unhappy. I couldn't stand a

1041
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:58,440
Speaker 5: sight of her and I really hated living with her.

1042
01:01:58,680 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 5: I was very upset, and I told her that she

1043
01:02:03,120 --> 01:02:06,480
Speaker 5: really should live with my aunt, but she refuses.

1044
01:02:05,960 --> 01:02:10,160
Speaker 4: To live with my aunt for whatever reason. It seems

1045
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,440
Speaker 4: like we're going to have to find some money and

1046
01:02:12,480 --> 01:02:16,080
Speaker 4: find her some housing, and don't worry, it will be

1047
01:02:16,120 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 4: done soon because I need her out for my own wellbeing,

1048
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 4: so that will be done within a couple of weeks.

1049
01:02:23,720 --> 01:02:28,880
Speaker 4: I'm looking into some finances, and once she has that money,

1050
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:32,600
Speaker 4: she is to leave. I want to thank you guys

1051
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,720
Speaker 4: for helping me, giving me the push, giving me all

1052
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 4: that advice, and spending that time with me. Thank you

1053
01:02:40,000 --> 01:02:40,480
Speaker 4: so much.

1054
01:02:46,320 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: So wow, this must have been an unimaginably hard week

1055
01:02:55,600 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 1: for Mollie. She got the letter translated, which is something

1056
01:03:00,440 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: that I think had been this big question mark weighing

1057
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: over her. She shared some of her inner life with

1058
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 1: her husband, which I'm really glad she was able to do,

1059
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,840
Speaker 1: and she took action with her mother. Now, the thing

1060
01:03:14,960 --> 01:03:19,240
Speaker 1: is that I noticed in her response that she had

1061
01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: like one sentence about, yeah, I got the letter translated,

1062
01:03:22,200 --> 01:03:23,840
Speaker 1: and here's what it said, and yeah, I talked to

1063
01:03:23,880 --> 01:03:26,680
Speaker 1: my husband and here's what happened. There was no emotion

1064
01:03:26,800 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 1: in that at all, and I thought that was really notable.

1065
01:03:31,760 --> 01:03:36,280
Speaker 1: And then we didn't suggest that she say to her mother,

1066
01:03:36,840 --> 01:03:39,240
Speaker 1: you know, I can't stand to look at you that

1067
01:03:39,280 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 1: we didn't want it to be positioned in that way.

1068
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:46,360
Speaker 1: But I think what happened was she must have had

1069
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,720
Speaker 1: a reaction to seeing that the letter really did vindicate her,

1070
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: and then feeling even more anger at her mother for

1071
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 1: putting her through that psychological torture of this was your fault.

1072
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:03,960
Speaker 1: Your father killed himself because of you, which was blatantly untrue.

1073
01:04:04,160 --> 01:04:08,080
Speaker 1: And I'll bet she was so angry relieved first of

1074
01:04:08,120 --> 01:04:12,440
Speaker 1: all that was not true, but then really grasping with

1075
01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: the reality of my mother tortured me psychologically in that

1076
01:04:15,800 --> 01:04:19,440
Speaker 1: way with this lie. I think made it hard for

1077
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:22,240
Speaker 1: her to contain that anger when she asked her mother

1078
01:04:22,280 --> 01:04:22,800
Speaker 1: to move out.

1079
01:04:23,840 --> 01:04:26,480
Speaker 3: I agree with you, and I think the other thing

1080
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 3: that made it hard for her to contain her anger

1081
01:04:29,920 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 3: is that she had to stuff down so much resentment,

1082
01:04:33,200 --> 01:04:37,000
Speaker 3: so much anger over the years, and I think that

1083
01:04:37,120 --> 01:04:39,320
Speaker 3: at the point where she's allowing herself to get in

1084
01:04:39,360 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 3: touch with it, because she's allowing herself to act in it,

1085
01:04:41,680 --> 01:04:45,040
Speaker 3: and then it bursts out in a volcanic kind of.

1086
01:04:45,600 --> 01:04:48,320
Speaker 1: Stream, right, And I think we should go back to

1087
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:52,960
Speaker 1: that cultural piece, which is that maybe in another culture,

1088
01:04:53,680 --> 01:04:57,200
Speaker 1: the kind of comments that her mother made would be

1089
01:04:58,080 --> 01:05:02,560
Speaker 1: maybe harsh, but not abusive, and so I think we

1090
01:05:02,680 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 1: have to be sensitive to the culture in which the

1091
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:08,640
Speaker 1: mother grew up, because it might be that from the

1092
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,120
Speaker 1: mother's point of view, she was being helpful to her daughter.

1093
01:05:11,160 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: She was saying, Look, these are the things you can

1094
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:17,040
Speaker 1: improve on. We don't know, but we do know that Molly,

1095
01:05:17,160 --> 01:05:23,480
Speaker 1: from a young age, grew up here and really did

1096
01:05:23,520 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 1: not like the criticisms, did not like the responsibility, and

1097
01:05:29,120 --> 01:05:31,080
Speaker 1: did not feel like she ever got to have a

1098
01:05:31,200 --> 01:05:32,160
Speaker 1: life of her own.

1099
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,440
Speaker 3: I do think she was caught between two worlds her

1100
01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:40,520
Speaker 3: entire life. The obligation from the cultural Chinese perspective of

1101
01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 3: you must take care of your parents, especially when they

1102
01:05:43,000 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 3: sacrificed so much and they don't speak the language and

1103
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 3: they're dependent on you. There was such a strong demand

1104
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 3: for that and such a strong expectation. She internalized it completely,

1105
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:55,760
Speaker 3: and I think that this made her take the step

1106
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,600
Speaker 3: towards Yes, I might be bicultural, but nice standards are

1107
01:06:00,680 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 3: these standards.

1108
01:06:02,040 --> 01:06:04,080
Speaker 1: The other thing, too, is that she's seeing as she

1109
01:06:04,120 --> 01:06:08,040
Speaker 1: moves closer to her husband, what reciprocity in a relationship

1110
01:06:08,080 --> 01:06:10,800
Speaker 1: looks like, what empathy looks like. One of the things

1111
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:13,960
Speaker 1: we were talking with her about was about grieving her

1112
01:06:14,000 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 1: father's death, and part of that was getting the truth,

1113
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 1: and part of that was to be able to have

1114
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 1: the space without her mother's voice in her head and

1115
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,160
Speaker 1: without the guilt and without the question about her responsibility

1116
01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: in it. And now that she's able to talk about

1117
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: that more with her husband and to sit with that

1118
01:06:31,760 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 1: with herself, I think she's going to have a lot

1119
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:37,560
Speaker 1: of room to do that. It's going to be really hard,

1120
01:06:37,600 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: and it's really painful, but far less painful than not

1121
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:43,000
Speaker 1: being able to feel those feelings and then also to

1122
01:06:43,040 --> 01:06:45,000
Speaker 1: feel like maybe she had a role in this.

1123
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,000
Speaker 3: And one last thing, I'll say, I did not expect

1124
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:54,960
Speaker 3: that she would pull all of this off so quickly,

1125
01:06:55,520 --> 01:06:59,560
Speaker 3: The amount of emotional strength it required for her to

1126
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 3: do the things that she's been fighting against all her

1127
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 3: life to finally do these things, I think it was

1128
01:07:05,880 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 3: remarkable what she pulled off. I'm just blown away.

1129
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 1: When we were listening to her voicemail, you and I

1130
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:16,120
Speaker 1: were looking at each other in just awe that she

1131
01:07:16,320 --> 01:07:18,600
Speaker 1: was able to accomplish so much in a week. And

1132
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: I think it's been long overdue and she was ready

1133
01:07:20,840 --> 01:07:23,480
Speaker 1: to do something. But sometimes people are ready to do

1134
01:07:23,520 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 1: something and then when it comes to actually executing it,

1135
01:07:26,840 --> 01:07:30,000
Speaker 1: they get cold feet, and she didn't. I think this

1136
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,440
Speaker 1: is the beginning of a new chapter in her life

1137
01:07:33,480 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 1: that is going to feel very different and very positive

1138
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:37,360
Speaker 1: for her.

1139
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:39,520
Speaker 3: It's a new chapter, but it might even feel like

1140
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 3: a new life entirely, and to the extent that it does,

1141
01:07:41,600 --> 01:07:49,200
Speaker 3: I hope it feels like a great one. Hey, fellow travelers,

1142
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 3: if you've used any of our advice from the podcast

1143
01:07:52,200 --> 01:07:54,720
Speaker 3: in your own life, send us a quick voice memo

1144
01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:58,040
Speaker 3: to Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com and tell

1145
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 3: us about it. We may include it in a future show.

1146
01:08:01,480 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for listening. If you're enjoying the show,

1147
01:08:05,040 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 3: please take a moment to rate and review it.

1148
01:08:07,680 --> 01:08:11,080
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

1149
01:08:11,120 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

1150
01:08:14,120 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

1151
01:08:18,360 --> 01:08:21,599
Speaker 3: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

1152
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:25,400
Speaker 3: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

1153
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,280
Speaker 3: like to discuss with us, big or small, email us

1154
01:08:28,360 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 3: at Lorianguy at iHeartMedia dot Com.

1155
01:08:31,519 --> 01:08:35,840
Speaker 1: Our executive producers Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited by

1156
01:08:35,840 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to our

1157
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:44,439
Speaker 1: podcast Fairygodmother Katie Couric. And next week, a man feels

1158
01:08:44,439 --> 01:08:46,960
Speaker 1: guilty that he isn't connecting enough with his mother in

1159
01:08:47,000 --> 01:08:50,639
Speaker 1: another country during COVID. Oh and he's not just any

1160
01:08:50,640 --> 01:08:54,000
Speaker 1: fellow traveler. He's a special guest that you may already know.

1161
01:08:54,280 --> 01:08:56,559
Speaker 6: We expect our parents, or at least for some parts

1162
01:08:56,559 --> 01:08:59,400
Speaker 6: of our lifestyle. There are superheroes, and then often the

1163
01:08:59,479 --> 01:09:01,880
Speaker 6: roles reverse as we get older. And one of the

1164
01:09:01,920 --> 01:09:05,400
Speaker 6: things that I've noticed in that role reversal is there

1165
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:07,000
Speaker 6: can be a lot of feelings of guilt.

1166
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:10,520
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio.