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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joe Wisn't and I'm Tracy Hallaway. So, Tracy, I

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Speaker 1: think you know, and I think listeners know that, at

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Speaker 1: least for me, my interest in markets like really came

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Speaker 1: about during the dot combo. Yes, you have brought this

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Speaker 1: up a number of times, and I have to say,

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Speaker 1: I love hearing the stories of you losing money during

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Speaker 1: the bubble. I made a little money. I made a

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Speaker 1: little money too, but I also I also lost them.

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Speaker 1: But for me, like so many things, are things that

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Speaker 1: I've sort of like learned or like internalized about how

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Speaker 1: that markets work, like still come from more or less

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Speaker 1: that period. And I think it's obvious that on some

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Speaker 1: level what we're seeing now in markets, we've seen in crypto,

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Speaker 1: we've seen in tech, has some pretty obvious parallels to

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Speaker 1: that period. I feel like the late nineties early two

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Speaker 1: thousand's tech bubble would be a good grounding for the

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Speaker 1: current market situation. Uh So I envy you that experience.

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Speaker 1: But the thing that interests me a lot about two thousand,

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Speaker 1: when the bubble burst and all the tech stocks collapsed

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Speaker 1: and all of that, is when did people actually declare

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Speaker 1: like tech is over, the tech bubble has burst. This

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Speaker 1: is it? Because this is a question that comes up

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Speaker 1: a lot now, right, right, So it's like what is

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Speaker 1: over and what is real? And one like, so obviously

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Speaker 1: a year ago there were a lot of people who

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Speaker 1: on paper were worth a lot more money than they

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Speaker 1: are right now. But presumably, you know, people are like, well,

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Speaker 1: what's the bottom? When does this bounce back? What's what?

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Speaker 1: What do we? What do we? What sticks with us?

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Speaker 1: Like these are all really interesting questions, and of course

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Speaker 1: no one knows the answer. But you know, all of

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Speaker 1: these conversations happened after the late nineties dot com bubble,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I think people forget like for years

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Speaker 1: no one talked about Amazon, like two thousand one through

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Speaker 1: say two thousand ex or seven. It was not a

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Speaker 1: particularly prominent company that people talked about, right. So this

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Speaker 1: is the other thing that interests me. It's what comes

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Speaker 1: out of the wreckage of a bubble bursting. Because everyone

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Speaker 1: was very excited about the Internet in the late nineties,

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Speaker 1: and so you saw a bunch of companies rise up

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Speaker 1: to come up with some sort of internet based business model,

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Speaker 1: and then it all kind of went away after the

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Speaker 1: bubble burst, but some companies that did phenomenally well decades

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Speaker 1: later actually emerged out of that rubble. And the question

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Speaker 1: of course now is whether or not the same thing

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Speaker 1: might happen. So the question is like, how how do

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Speaker 1: you know it's over? What comes after that? What is

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Speaker 1: it like to lose on paper? Sort of like unbelievable

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Speaker 1: gobs of money, which a lot of people are going

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Speaker 1: through now. So you know, obviously there were a lot

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Speaker 1: of like the dot com I p o s people

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Speaker 1: remember pets dot com was sort of infamous or like

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Speaker 1: hundreds and tons, but like I think the real first one,

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Speaker 1: the one that really caused people's attention just like, wow,

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Speaker 1: this is unbelievable amount of wealth here. I don't know,

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Speaker 1: do you remember the globe dot com? You know what?

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Speaker 1: It rings a bell, But I'm not that familiar with it.

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Speaker 1: I think it was famous for at the time being

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Speaker 1: like the biggest one day pop in IPO history. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was, I think at one time, and it was

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Speaker 1: definitely like one of the first lenges, like a little

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Speaker 1: bit earlier than the rest, and so it sort of

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Speaker 1: had this media ac rise um and then fall. Anyway, Uh,

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Speaker 1: the the fact the co founders of the company. They

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Speaker 1: were like in the media and they're famous for like

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Speaker 1: being really young and really rich and wearing plastic leather

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Speaker 1: pants to parties, as one does when you're young and

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Speaker 1: really rich, and then of course the bubble collect that's

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Speaker 1: what you were doing. But I was like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is like really cool anyway, so I'm very excited. I

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Speaker 1: just want to jump right into it. This is like

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Speaker 1: a personal thrill for me because of course there's got

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Speaker 1: me interested in markets. We're gonna be speaking with Stefan

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Speaker 1: Pat don't know. He is currently the co founder and

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Speaker 1: executive chairman of Slated, which is an online film finance marketplace,

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Speaker 1: but also he was the co founder and co CEO

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Speaker 1: of the Globe dot com. So we're going to hear

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Speaker 1: some stories about what those years were like and maybe

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Speaker 1: some takeaways for people today. So Stefan, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on odd lots my pleasure. That's quite

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Speaker 1: an intro. So let me start with like maybe an

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Speaker 1: embarrassing question, And I don't know if it's an embarrassing

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Speaker 1: question for me or maybe it's an embarrassing question for you,

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Speaker 1: But you know, I know a lot about the Globe

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Speaker 1: because I remember the surge, I remember the I p O.

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Speaker 1: I remember that you and your co founder were extremely rich.

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Speaker 1: I remember you're in the media. I remember the plastic pants.

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Speaker 1: What I don't remember is like, and I don't even

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Speaker 1: think I knew it at the time. What did the

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Speaker 1: Globe do? What was the Globe? Well, you're not the

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Speaker 1: only one who may have known the Globe, primarily because

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Speaker 1: of its stock price. Yeah, much to my chagrin, the

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Speaker 1: Globe dot com was one of the first virtual communities.

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Speaker 1: So back then we didn't call the social networking. It

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Speaker 1: was called virtual community. Uh. And it was a much

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Speaker 1: broader idea that the Internet was new, and there was

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Speaker 1: this idea that maybe people could plug in, log on

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Speaker 1: and exist online and build relationships online and interact with

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Speaker 1: other people online. And that was the concept of virtual community.

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Speaker 1: The tools to do it hadn't been built yet, right,

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Speaker 1: So chat rooms and forums and homepage building, all these

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Speaker 1: basic primitives is what we needed to build um And

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Speaker 1: now we take for granted today, Right, you don't think

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Speaker 1: of these basic primitives and anymore. Just think you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm on Facebook, I'm on TikTok, I'm on I'm on Twitter,

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Speaker 1: I'm on any of these things and you know, I

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Speaker 1: just upload and share and post. That's just it just works.

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Speaker 1: But back then that wasn't obvious. So that's what we

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Speaker 1: we created its first generation primitives for virtual community, and

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Speaker 1: lo and behold, it became one of these stickiest business

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Speaker 1: models we could have ever imagined. And of course, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, Facebook ran with that much more successfully than

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Speaker 1: us in the early two thousand's. What was the journey

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Speaker 1: like from starting this virtual community to eventually, you know,

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Speaker 1: listing in a public market, because that seems like, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's quite an upward trajectory, So how did that work? Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it was non obvious. Um So of course, looking

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Speaker 1: back thirty years later, and that's terrifying to even admit

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Speaker 1: that it's been that long, it all seems obvious, like

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Speaker 1: this was always going to happen. But back then, no

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Speaker 1: one understood what the Internet was, right. Tim Bernard Lee

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Speaker 1: is one of the creators of the HTTP protocol and

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Speaker 1: h t M l UM and it's something that's super fringe,

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Speaker 1: running on the dark one that that's been built, and

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Speaker 1: only university professors and some really geeky university students are

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Speaker 1: logging onto the Worldwide Web and creating web pages, and

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Speaker 1: you really could only go browse other university websites, so

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Speaker 1: it was really cryptic, hard to use. You really needed

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Speaker 1: to know what you were doing, and to even get started,

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Speaker 1: you needed to download what was called a browser, and

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Speaker 1: the first one was really Mosaic. It was a old

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Speaker 1: beta version of Mosaic, which was something that Mark Andreson

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Speaker 1: had created before Netscape. And it just so happens that

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Speaker 1: my old college friend, best friend at the time, Todd Kreiselman,

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Speaker 1: and I we downloaded Mosaic. We we found her. We

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Speaker 1: we had dial up modems. I was using a fourteen

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Speaker 1: four modem, he had a nineteen point to kill a

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Speaker 1: bit modems, so super slow, but we both logged in

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Speaker 1: and found our way into what was the first chat

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Speaker 1: room we ever experienced. That's how primitive things were at

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Speaker 1: the time, and startup culture wasn't typical. Not everybody was

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Speaker 1: doing startups. That was very very much a Silicon Valley thing.

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Speaker 1: Most people who were in university like us, were there

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Speaker 1: to go get their degrees and then go and maybe

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Speaker 1: become a banker, a lawyer and you know, earn your

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Speaker 1: stripes that way. So for us to want to go

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Speaker 1: and try to do something different and create a startup

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Speaker 1: in college, let alone one in this new universe called

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Speaker 1: the Internet. Was super risky. Our parents didn't understand what

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Speaker 1: we were talking about, most of our professors didn't understand

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Speaker 1: what we were talking about, and we just sort of

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Speaker 1: had to wing it and say, look, I think Todd

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Speaker 1: and I want to we think there's something there. There's

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Speaker 1: this thing called the Internet. It's just beginning. There's only

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Speaker 1: a few million people around the world using it, but

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Speaker 1: we've stumbled on this social experiment and chat that is

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Speaker 1: so addictive. We think that could be the beginning of

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Speaker 1: something huge. So that's where it started. Non obvious. We

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Speaker 1: were taking the path less traveled by, certainly not the

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Speaker 1: safe choice that you know, most of our friends were

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Speaker 1: gonna go and get jobs and earn fifty six seventy

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Speaker 1: thousand a year. We were gonna go make nothing. There

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Speaker 1: was no such thing as online advertising or e commerce

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Speaker 1: or any way to make money. So it was going

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Speaker 1: we were going into the great scary unknown with this

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Speaker 1: um well before there was ever the concept of an

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Speaker 1: I p O related to the Internet space. So let's

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Speaker 1: talk about that I P O I think it was,

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Speaker 1: which is a little bit earlier than the real man, Russ.

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Speaker 1: You're a little bit earlier out of the gate than

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Speaker 1: a lot of these companies. The stocks surge six six

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Speaker 1: percent of Clinic to something I'm reading here, Um, it

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Speaker 1: was market Camp was a little bit under a billion.

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Speaker 1: What was that like? What was that day like? And

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Speaker 1: how much were you worth like the day before that day?

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Speaker 1: And how much were you worth that day? Well, I

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Speaker 1: think for for you to fully comprehended, for your audience

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Speaker 1: to fully comprehend what it felt like that day, you

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Speaker 1: would have to understand that. Uh. You know, for the

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Speaker 1: four years between the inception of the Globe and US

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Speaker 1: going public, there was no I P O Mania. Only

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Speaker 1: a few companies had gone public in this space. One

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Speaker 1: of them was Yahoo. One of them was Netscape first

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Speaker 1: and it sort of blew up and it became this

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Speaker 1: news item. Yahoo went public and then not also became

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Speaker 1: a news item. But in the short months after they've

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Speaker 1: gone public, their stocks have tanked. So people were going, Okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't we don't quite understand what this Netscape is,

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Speaker 1: this Yahoo thing is. It doesn't seem to be working. Well,

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Speaker 1: what is the Globe bringing to the to the table

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Speaker 1: that's new or different. Well, what we were bringing to

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Speaker 1: the table in four years later was this super addictive

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Speaker 1: social interaction online that was capturing people's imagination. It was

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Speaker 1: still at a point where the market wasn't receptive to

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Speaker 1: I p O, so we didn't know that our I

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Speaker 1: p O was gonna work. We were actually coming We

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Speaker 1: were in a recession in the summer of the markets

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Speaker 1: have come down because long term capital management had collapsed.

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Speaker 1: We were running out of money and we were thinking,

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Speaker 1: I don't know that we're gonna be able to go public.

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Speaker 1: We're probably gonna run out of money and our business

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Speaker 1: is just gonna go under and everyone will No one

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Speaker 1: will ever discovered with the internet is let alone virtual community.

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Speaker 1: And that's a bummer because we've just been at it

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Speaker 1: for four years talking about virtual community. But by November,

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Speaker 1: and it really was on Friday November, the market turned

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Speaker 1: that week and suddenly there were a couple other companies

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Speaker 1: that went public. Company called Fox went public, and then

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Speaker 1: a couple other small dot coms went public that went

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Speaker 1: up pretty quickly. And suddenly, um after having done a

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Speaker 1: three week road show for our I p O and

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Speaker 1: having been turned down by all the institutions that we're

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Speaker 1: looking at the marks collapsing as the market turn. The

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Speaker 1: phone start ringing off the hook, calling all of our

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Speaker 1: bankers saying, hey, hold on, what's this thing you guys

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Speaker 1: have been saying again about the Internet and virtual community,

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Speaker 1: the globe dot com. We want in. And suddenly this

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Speaker 1: little three million share offering we had had something like

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Speaker 1: forty five million shares of demand, massively oversubscribed x UM.

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Speaker 1: We didn't manage to move the price up much again

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Speaker 1: because we were worried that the market would turn again

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Speaker 1: and r S one filing would go stale, and that

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Speaker 1: the ICHO again would never happen and we would die

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Speaker 1: right there, right right, you know, at the goal line. UM,

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Speaker 1: So we just we we just told the bank let's

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Speaker 1: not try to mess with the price. Let's just take

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Speaker 1: what we can get. And that day we were pricing

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Speaker 1: at nine dollars a share, which was way down from

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Speaker 1: what we had been hoping to raise earlier in our

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Speaker 1: I p O process. But that um, there was enough interest,

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Speaker 1: and that morning the bankers were telling us, hey, guys,

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Speaker 1: the interest is climbing. Um, we're gonna go. You guys

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Speaker 1: should be pricing right around eleven a m. It's nine

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Speaker 1: thirty ten am, but it looks like this is going

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Speaker 1: to price at thirty dollars a share, and we were like, wait,

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Speaker 1: weren't we priced at nine dollars? How's it going up

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Speaker 1: to twenty thirty? What's going on? Because this was very unusual.

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Speaker 1: Stocks weren't popping that that way back in the day.

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Speaker 1: And another half hour later, they're saying, oh, never mind,

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Speaker 1: it's not gonna go at thirty dollars a share, and

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Speaker 1: we're like, okay, so what is it? Nine ten eleven

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Speaker 1: and they're like, no, it's actually gonna fifty to sixty

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Speaker 1: dollars a share, Like okay, wait, wait, what's going on?

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Speaker 1: And within another half hour, right as we're coming up

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Speaker 1: to eleven o'clock, the main trader that day suddenly yells

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Speaker 1: out eight seven seven and the and I just remember

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Speaker 1: that hundreds of bankers on that floor at bear Sterns

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Speaker 1: stood up to look where we were standing, not understanding

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Speaker 1: what was going on. And it turns out our stock

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Speaker 1: had run up from seven in the span of a

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Speaker 1: couple of hours. And we started getting phone calls on

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Speaker 1: our cell phones and people were telling us, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: it's there's something on CNN and CNBC and they're talking

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Speaker 1: about the globye yo and the world record, and you know,

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Speaker 1: so my partner and I talked. We were like totally

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Speaker 1: caught off guard. This sort of blew our minds away.

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Speaker 1: It was headspinning. It was exhilarating. It was also terrifying.

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Speaker 1: We didn't really know what an I p O was.

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Speaker 1: We were twenty four years old, and the fact that

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Speaker 1: it went out of control up a thousand percent and

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Speaker 1: was all over the news was unusual. And they're telling

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Speaker 1: us it's a world record I p O. Is that

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Speaker 1: is that good? Well, it's good because you're all over

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Speaker 1: the media. But very quickly it was like my god,

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Speaker 1: you guys left so much money on the table, Like okay,

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Speaker 1: well but beer Stairs didn't want to reprice this up,

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Speaker 1: you know, to ten or eleven or twelve, let alone seven,

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Speaker 1: So there was you know, it was it was an exhilarating,

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Speaker 1: crazy day, but we knew we had a new lease

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Speaker 1: on life. Our company was going to survive. Everyone was

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Speaker 1: now saying, whoa what is this internet thing going on?

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Speaker 1: And our I p os somehow ended up becoming this

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Speaker 1: lightning rod and kicking off I p O mania right

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Speaker 1: where every dot com wanted to go public and the

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Speaker 1: same thing happened, and then that we just happened to us.

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Speaker 1: I have so many questions, Um, I'm gonna try to

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Speaker 1: fit them all in into one mega question. Okay, One,

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Speaker 1: what did you do that night? Yeah? Did you go

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Speaker 1: out and celebrate? Secondly, what do you think accounted for

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Speaker 1: the big pop? You know, this was a sector that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people were unfamiliar with. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 1: there had been some I p o s that had

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Speaker 1: flopped recently, So like, why did everyone suddenly come together

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Speaker 1: and you know, seemingly want to have a slice of

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Speaker 1: the globe dot com? And then thirdly, what was it

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Speaker 1: like pricing with the bankers? Because you know you mentioned

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Speaker 1: you you went public at nine dollars, it felt like

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Speaker 1: you might have left money on the table. Um, how

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Speaker 1: did they actually work out that number? Well, let me

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Speaker 1: start with maybe this last question and then work my

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Speaker 1: way backwards from there. Um, So there had been a

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Speaker 1: huge amount of capital sitting on the sidelines in the

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Speaker 1: market because of the recession that had kicked in. Long

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Speaker 1: term capital management had unwound. Everyone was freaking out capital

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Speaker 1: pull out of the markets. So there's a lot of

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Speaker 1: money sitting there waiting to be deployed, and something like

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Speaker 1: a hundred plus UH road shows had been canceled, so

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Speaker 1: tons of companies that would ordinarily go public that year

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Speaker 1: had haul pulled their I p o S were one

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Speaker 1: of the last companies on the road show that refused

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Speaker 1: to quit because we knew we were going to go

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Speaker 1: under if we didn't raise the money. Um. The way

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Speaker 1: that the pricing worked was, you know, the banks would

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Speaker 1: like you to believe that there's some giant, brilliant formula

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Speaker 1: behind behind all this, but all they can never really

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Speaker 1: do is look at comps and what are comps based

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Speaker 1: on other comps? And what are those comps based on

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Speaker 1: other comps? So it's like, okay, it's basically, what are

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Speaker 1: other companies similar to you in concept? What are they

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Speaker 1: trading at? What's their multiple to revenue? Or in the

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Speaker 1: case of Internet companies that have very little revenue, it was, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, how big is your audience? You know, you

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Speaker 1: guys have you know, x millions of users versus Yahoo?

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Speaker 1: How do we you know? What have they valued at

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Speaker 1: right now? Well? There, their stock is low, So maybe

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Speaker 1: you guys shouldn't have such a high stock price either.

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Speaker 1: So it was it was it's very much. It's arbitrary,

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Speaker 1: and um, you know, bear Stearns had basically said to us, listen,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take you on the road show to our institutions,

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Speaker 1: to the t ro prices and Jenas funds, and we

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Speaker 1: think we can sell this at you know, let me

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Speaker 1: think finger in the air. Um, you know, a hundred

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Speaker 1: million dollar company and that would price you guys at

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Speaker 1: and the numbers may be an accurate because it's been

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Speaker 1: thirty years and I don't remember exactly, but you know

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Speaker 1: that's at eleven to thirteen dollar a share price. And

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Speaker 1: as we went onto the road and we said, okay, fine,

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Speaker 1: hundred million dollar company or ninety million dollar company eleven

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Speaker 1: or thirteen dollars a share. We don't have a better guess.

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Speaker 1: I mean, either way, we were only generating a few

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Speaker 1: million in revenue, so these multiple seem big. Who were

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Speaker 1: we to complain? But as we went on the road

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Speaker 1: show and the markets were crapping out and all that

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Speaker 1: capital got pulled out, m everyone would take the meeting

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Speaker 1: with us. They all thought the concept was I guess

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Speaker 1: a little bit mind blowing. Okay, there's this thing called

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Speaker 1: the Internet. There's virtual community. People are interacting with each other, okay,

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Speaker 1: and no one has seen the matrix yet, right, And

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Speaker 1: most people people hadn't read Neil stevenson snow Crash, right,

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Speaker 1: so they couldn't really imagine a world. Will you plug

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Speaker 1: into this thing called the metaverse? But there was something

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Speaker 1: to our story a virtual community, right that we're not

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Speaker 1: just a site online where you look up information. It's

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Speaker 1: not just a magazine online. It's not a place where

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Speaker 1: you just shop online. It's a place where you will

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Speaker 1: build relationships and spend hours of your life, because that's

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Speaker 1: what our users were doing, spending hours of their lives

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Speaker 1: in chat rooms. Something about that resonated with all the

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Speaker 1: institutions on the road show. But what didn't resonate with

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Speaker 1: them was the markets are collapsing. You guys should stop

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Speaker 1: your ip O. Didn't you notice everybody else cancel it?

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Speaker 1: So we, unfortunately, after the three week road show, had

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Speaker 1: no choice. The bear Sterns trying to lower the price, like, well,

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Speaker 1: no one's taking it at eleven and thirteen, they're not

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Speaker 1: taking it at ten, they're not taking it at nine,

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Speaker 1: they're not taking it eight like okay, so no price

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Speaker 1: is low enough, and eventually bear Sterns and this is

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Speaker 1: just I guess their sterns where they got some of

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Speaker 1: their reputation. They were like thinking that we'll we'll scoop

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Speaker 1: up the whole of the globe and by the whole

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Speaker 1: thing is six dollars a share, and it felt like

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Speaker 1: so sharky of them to want to pull that, and

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Speaker 1: we were like, no, we're not going to do that.

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Speaker 1: So we held off. And it's only because the market

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Speaker 1: turned around at a critical juncture where everyone was suddenly

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Speaker 1: going okay, okay, okay, what are the what are the

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Speaker 1: new I p o S on deck? Fox Cool? That

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Speaker 1: got priced tent below their their pop so it's well priced.

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Speaker 1: And then there was another little dot com called earth

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Speaker 1: Web that went up a couple and I think that

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Speaker 1: made everybody click and go, oh, the action is where

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Speaker 1: these dot com companies are. Who's the last company we

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Speaker 1: all met with that we liked the globe? So so

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Speaker 1: suddenly the timing those vectors came together and Bear Stearns,

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Speaker 1: you know, we then had to twist their arm to

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Speaker 1: convince them, listen, move the price back up, you know,

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Speaker 1: six bucks of shares insulting you know, like, okay, eight, Like,

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Speaker 1: come on, that's way below our I p O price.

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Speaker 1: It should have been eleven and thirteen. Okay, fine, nine,

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Speaker 1: But we can't go higher or we'll lose the interest

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Speaker 1: and everyone will walk and your s one's going to

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Speaker 1: go stale on Monday, and it's it's it's Thursday today.

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Speaker 1: So we felt we were sort of stuck between a

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Speaker 1: rock and hard place. Um, they wouldn't want it. They

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Speaker 1: didn't want us to interpret the forty million shares of

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Speaker 1: demand is something that should require moving the price. Even

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Speaker 1: though everyone on our team thought the price should move,

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Speaker 1: we kept it at nine. And that's how it got

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Speaker 1: set at nine. It's because of an accident in our market.

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Speaker 1: Timing brought us further down. Everyone else that went public

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Speaker 1: the following week and thereafter we're suddenly coming in way

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Speaker 1: above their price ranges. Forget eleven to thirteen dollars, they

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Speaker 1: were pricing thirty dollars a share on the you know,

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Speaker 1: the same scale, And so we realized that this sort

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Speaker 1: of blew everything up for everybody else. Unfortunately, we were

397
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Speaker 1: the guinea pig. And and what's more unfortunate for us

398
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Speaker 1: is that all of these institutions these big players that

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Speaker 1: are supposedly there to own shares in your company and

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Speaker 1: hold for the long haul. And the banks, you know,

401
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Speaker 1: when they're taking on the road show, they're telling you

402
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Speaker 1: all about their institutional clients are gonna hold your stock,

403
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Speaker 1: and you know they're they're big buyers, buying you know,

404
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 1: five million dollar chunks and they're gonna hold it for

405
00:20:39,560 --> 00:20:41,160
Speaker 1: the long haul, that that's going to be your base.

406
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Speaker 1: You know, very little piece of it will go to retail.

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Speaker 1: But what happened is is the day of the I

408
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Speaker 1: p O, when the stock went up a thousand percent,

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Speaker 1: all these institutions that bought in at nine dollars were like,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, Christmas came early, we're dumping it. So they

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Speaker 1: sold all their stock to the highest bidders, which were

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Speaker 1: the ones bidding all the way up to the are

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Speaker 1: a lot of institutions and day traders at that time

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Speaker 1: that didn't put in limit orders, so they were just

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Speaker 1: buying at market, you know, at seven ninety seven, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and it meant that all the institutions dumped

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Speaker 1: the stock. The stock traded hands on average five times

418
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Speaker 1: that day, so fifteen million shares and a three million

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Speaker 1: share offering and it meant that the globe was left

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Speaker 1: being primarily held by retail investors, people who didn't understand

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Speaker 1: what was going on. You know, the institutions did extremely well,

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Speaker 1: but it meant that we had a base of investors

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Speaker 1: that weren't classically long long holders of stock. So sort

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Speaker 1: of that that's set us up for not a good

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Speaker 1: start to our our public life. And what did you

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Speaker 1: do that night? Yeah, yeah, so yes, that night there

427
00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 1: was some celebration. UM. Bear in mind, the day before,

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Speaker 1: two days before, we didn't know we were going public,

429
00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:53,840
Speaker 1: so we didn't really have time to call up all

430
00:21:53,840 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: of our friends and tell everyone, like, guys, you know,

431
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:58,879
Speaker 1: Friday night, we're gonna be celebribrating. It's very impromptu. But

432
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:01,600
Speaker 1: there was going out. Um, there was you know, some

433
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 1: champagne or and or vodka one of my favorite nightclubs. Um.

434
00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,679
Speaker 1: And you know, me explaining to my then very new

435
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: girlfriend that something had crazy had just happened that day

436
00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 1: and she didn't really understand what the hell I was

437
00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,920
Speaker 1: talking about. But it was a surreal evening for me

438
00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,600
Speaker 1: and for Todd and for our company. Um. Again, we

439
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,680
Speaker 1: went from our company is going to go under two

440
00:22:26,080 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 1: new lease on life and apparently we did a world

441
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: record with it, so this can only mean good things.

442
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 1: So how much was so? How much were you personally worth?

443
00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 1: How much were you and Todd? Are you personally worth

444
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:39,520
Speaker 1: at the top? And what was the deal with the

445
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,960
Speaker 1: plastic pants? Because, like I said, I didn't remember question.

446
00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:46,080
Speaker 1: I didn't remember what the Globe dot com did, but

447
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: I do remember that you were in the media for

448
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 1: wearing plastic pants. So what do you answer? But so, yeah,

449
00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 1: that's the story fashion choices. So you know, it's like

450
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,080
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want to look at what I was wearing.

451
00:22:56,520 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: Vinyl was big in the late nineties. It was I

452
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:02,600
Speaker 1: think I just think I just were a little too

453
00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,159
Speaker 1: farn uh. So yeah, I mean Todd and I each

454
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: had a million shares in the company. We owned ten

455
00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,560
Speaker 1: percent of the company each, so technically at that peak

456
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:12,800
Speaker 1: day we were worth ninety seven million each. And that

457
00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 1: was sort of the headline at the time, you know,

458
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 1: net geeks strike it rich on the cover of the

459
00:23:18,800 --> 00:23:23,159
Speaker 1: New York Post and pretty much all the tabloids. Um. So,

460
00:23:23,440 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: suddenly having my dorman at the building recognized and go,

461
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: oh my god, congratulations, it was I felt suddenly very

462
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,240
Speaker 1: vulnerable that everybody knew too much. Um, but yeah, the

463
00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 1: vinyl pants that happened a year later, among all of

464
00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:43,760
Speaker 1: the wonderful media coverage and celebration and growing the business

465
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:47,560
Speaker 1: and becoming somewhat of a sensational story because back then

466
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 1: dot com whiz kids wasn't a thing, so this was

467
00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,240
Speaker 1: sort of the beginning of that whole thing, and everyone

468
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 1: was fascinated, like international media in particular. For them, this

469
00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,639
Speaker 1: is a quintessential Americana dream. Not only in America can

470
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 1: you be a young entrepreneur, a young celebrity and make

471
00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: it rich, And that doesn't happen in Europe. So Europeans

472
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,399
Speaker 1: were just fascinated with this story. You know, a dorm

473
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:14,920
Speaker 1: dorm room college startup that suddenly ends up, you know,

474
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 1: the nexus of Wall Street worth a billion dollars like

475
00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,040
Speaker 1: that was completely surreal to them, and it was pretty

476
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: novel as well in America. But in America, you know,

477
00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:25,600
Speaker 1: there was a much more entrepreneurial spirit in general, and

478
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: the start up the concept of startups was not a

479
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:31,600
Speaker 1: typical um, you know, maybe a public company at twenty

480
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 1: four was a little bit atypical. So some of the

481
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,160
Speaker 1: media wanted to just you know, most of the time

482
00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 1: when we were being brought into interviews, it wasn't to

483
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:40,440
Speaker 1: get into the nitty gritty of our platform. It was

484
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:42,360
Speaker 1: to be like, oh my god, what's it like being rich?

485
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 1: If you guys bought new houses, new cars, tell us,

486
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,480
Speaker 1: tell us, tell us, you're getting marriage offers. It was.

487
00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,440
Speaker 1: It was sensational, and so to a certain extent, Todd

488
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,919
Speaker 1: and I accepted that, like if if we've become these

489
00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,880
Speaker 1: dot com whiz icons, Okay, let's let's just play that game.

490
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: This is how we get the media coverage and drive

491
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,120
Speaker 1: our traffic up. Let's not be boring about it. Let's

492
00:25:01,320 --> 00:25:04,359
Speaker 1: let's let's play into that fantasy. Let's explain to them

493
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: this great new virtual world we've created. Let's let's act

494
00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 1: like we're the cool We're the cool kids who always

495
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,239
Speaker 1: knew um what they were doing and that they were

496
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 1: ahead of their time. We didn't. But eventually, um, you know,

497
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:19,080
Speaker 1: CNN came calling and they wanted they were launching a

498
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: new series camera what's called I think it's called CNN Movers,

499
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,880
Speaker 1: half hour documentary with jan Hopkins, and um, they wanted

500
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: to follow us around. They wanted to know what what

501
00:25:29,720 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 1: was the what was the life like of twenty four

502
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,680
Speaker 1: year old public company CEOs. So they are there. I

503
00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: made the faithful decision to let them into my life,

504
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: you know, let them into our homes. That's what they

505
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,520
Speaker 1: wanted to do, and follow us out. They knew that

506
00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,840
Speaker 1: I like to go out and go to a club

507
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: and go dance, and they're like, can we follow you?

508
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,639
Speaker 1: And I said sure, Well I wasn't gonna go on

509
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:59,879
Speaker 1: CNN and just dancing jeans was I Obviously important decisions taken.

510
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: You got a dance vinyl pants exactly look I mean

511
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: and back then, you know, this was way before the

512
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,600
Speaker 1: days of you know, Elon must smoking weed on Joe

513
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: Rogan and like that's just you know, typical Thursday afternoon.

514
00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking, what's the most crazy thing I can

515
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: do that will capture everyone's imagination and go, yes, this

516
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 1: is the embodiment of the American dream. Well, I'll put

517
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,680
Speaker 1: on my vinyl pants in some tight T shirt and

518
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,080
Speaker 1: spike my hair with gel and we'll go to a

519
00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:31,239
Speaker 1: club and I will dance on a table and make

520
00:26:31,280 --> 00:26:33,600
Speaker 1: sure that there's other pretty girls dancing there, and you know,

521
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 1: shake a bottle of champagne. I don't remember everything I did,

522
00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 1: but the cliche what is now clearly a cliche, But now,

523
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 1: of course it's so tame, it's it's honestly like it

524
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,280
Speaker 1: would it wouldn't make any news anymore today because it's

525
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 1: just not that interesting. So part of me wants to

526
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: just ask questions about what it was like clubbing in

527
00:26:53,000 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 1: the ninety nineties, because I think that would have been

528
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 1: an interesting experience. But um, I want to ask a

529
00:26:58,080 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: serious question, which was you did the I p O.

530
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 1: You raised a bunch of money, you had fundraisings before that.

531
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: What were you planning to do with all the money?

532
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,600
Speaker 1: Like was there actually a plan for expansion or acquisitions

533
00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 1: and things like that? Yes, uh so there wasn't. There

534
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:17,679
Speaker 1: was definitely a method to the madness, and we had

535
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:20,920
Speaker 1: raised I think a couple hundred million dollars over like

536
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: quarter five six rounds of financing. It's nothing magical. It's

537
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 1: you raise the money you need to buy more servers,

538
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 1: hire more people, and build out your infrastructure and your team,

539
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 1: and you know you never have enough money, right because

540
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,160
Speaker 1: back then it was called Netscape poin the term GDF

541
00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,600
Speaker 1: get big fast, So it was all about spend, spend

542
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 1: it as fast as you can, to grow as fast

543
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: as you can. Everyone the only thing they cared about

544
00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:46,640
Speaker 1: were eyeballs. Whoever is getting the biggest audience doesn't matter

545
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: what your revenues are. Yet it doesn't matter forget profits.

546
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Just grow grow, grow, grow grow. So after our I

547
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 1: p O and I p Omnia kicked in and all

548
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,120
Speaker 1: of our competitors, you know, we'd raised twenty seven million

549
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: or I p O everyone else was raising sixty two

550
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: hundred million, We're like, oh my god, they're outspending us

551
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: in ads and servers and hiring. It became this race.

552
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: And by the way, these are the parallels of every

553
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:13,639
Speaker 1: single crypto boom bust cycles. It's interesting you see that

554
00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: because you know, we an that Escape was of course

555
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 1: uh founded, as you mentioned by Mark Andreas and get

556
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,800
Speaker 1: big Fest. We like just didn't interview like you know,

557
00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: now think about all the Andres and Horowitz companies. That's

558
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: sort of like how many hundreds of or thousands of

559
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 1: companies have essentially taken jeep that netscap, Netscape GBF model,

560
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: and now it's like that is the thing or that

561
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,960
Speaker 1: is really defined tech in this modern age. Yeah, well, look,

562
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 1: every boom bust cycle goes through that, right. But when

563
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 1: you start off building something on really uncharted territory, no

564
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 1: one's exciting. Everyone thinks they're crazy and they're very scared

565
00:28:50,400 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 1: about putting money in. Right, So first you have to

566
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: tell the story and build a market and get the users,

567
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 1: and then other companies need to tag along. And eventually,

568
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 1: when the demand is there and the excitement is there,

569
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 1: fomo kicks in. Right. That's when all the fast followers

570
00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 1: come in, and of course investors they go through their

571
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 1: wave as well. Right, there's the there's the laggards, and

572
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 1: then there's the ones with the fomo. Not right in

573
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,400
Speaker 1: the beginning, but a little bit later, who go, oh

574
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,240
Speaker 1: my god, everyone's doing well with that. I got a

575
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:21,520
Speaker 1: pile in. That's where valuations go sky high. That's where

576
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: the industries get built because billions of dollars flow in.

577
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: But inevitably we passed keep madness and then you know,

578
00:29:29,200 --> 00:29:32,040
Speaker 1: eyeballs isn't enough. We need revenues. And then revenues isn't enough.

579
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 1: You're losing money like crazy. You know, remember Amazon, they

580
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: were losing billions of dollars a year famously, and it

581
00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 1: takes a shakeout. Right, So when the bubble burst in

582
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: two thousand, two thousand one. It's because there wasn't enough profits.

583
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,560
Speaker 1: There wasn't enough advertising dollars or e commerce, or the

584
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: margins weren't big enough to sustain all of this. So

585
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:54,160
Speaker 1: the these using capital as this defensive moat to just

586
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,920
Speaker 1: outspend your competition. That started in the dot com era,

587
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: and then it got carried through again in UM the

588
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: twenty I see omnia. It also has been part of

589
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:12,600
Speaker 1: web two point oh right, just who from Uber to

590
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 1: Lift to UM just you name it, everybody. Capital is

591
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 1: a defensive moat became a core strategy and in notably

592
00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:25,360
Speaker 1: always leads to this shakeout. So that's part. That's the

593
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:28,320
Speaker 1: bus cycle. But the beautiful thing is is we always

594
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: come out of the bus cycle eventually. Right. Some of

595
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: the original players who usually started before a maniac kicks

596
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: in and have have been working from first principles, not

597
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 1: from crazy had a money pouring showering down on them,

598
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: but from really good first principles. Usually those players survive,

599
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,080
Speaker 1: some of them don't UM, but it's the ones who

600
00:30:48,080 --> 00:30:50,239
Speaker 1: work from first principles who usually do the best. Then

601
00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:52,320
Speaker 1: the ones that are the most disciplined and not spending

602
00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 1: their money as fast as they can, who then continue.

603
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: But those who come in later at the point of FOMO,

604
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,240
Speaker 1: will do so much spending to catch up and try

605
00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: to overtake the market, they will be the first to

606
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:23,160
Speaker 1: get to implode when there's a market controversion. So can

607
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: I just ask when did you actually know it was over?

608
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: Or let me ask two things? Okay, One, when did

609
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 1: you know it was over? That the bubble had burst?

610
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: And then secondly, what was your first sign of real trouble?

611
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:40,680
Speaker 1: Like is there a moment or thing that you can pinpoint? Yeah?

612
00:31:40,760 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: So we we for better or worse? Where the canary

613
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:45,959
Speaker 1: in the coal mine with the globe right. We were early, Um,

614
00:31:46,120 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 1: we could see this was going to be exciting before

615
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 1: everybody piled in. And then we could see that as

616
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: everyone piled in and more and more money was getting

617
00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 1: burned by all companies, that it was becoming untenable to

618
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 1: keep spending our way to stay ahead. And spending your

619
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: money meant using some of that cash to launch huge

620
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,800
Speaker 1: ad campaigns, you know, hiring more staff, bigger sales teams.

621
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: You're doing that, But some of the cash and your

622
00:32:11,640 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 1: stock as a public company was to acquire more companies

623
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 1: as well. If we can't organically grow fast enough, we

624
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: will acquire companies. Then you acquire some companies, but their

625
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: valuations are going up too, so you're now paying inflated

626
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 1: prices for other small companies to try to bulk yourself up.

627
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: And you name it all the major companies, Facebook, Alphabet

628
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:33,719
Speaker 1: and all that. They they bought hundreds of companies over

629
00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: the years that don't largely get reported, So all you

630
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: really ever see is this big top line growth, But

631
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: what you don't realize is what fraction of that was

632
00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: the original organic stuff versus all the acquisitions and then

633
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: the padding and sandbagging of their numbers so that the

634
00:32:49,200 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 1: analysts can't quite see how you're you're buying your traffic,

635
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: you're buying the revenues to try to help goose your

636
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: your overall top line figures. And we were having to

637
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 1: do the same thing. We're buying more and more companies.

638
00:33:01,160 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 1: They were helping, but not enough. And you know, a

639
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,920
Speaker 1: lot of there wasn't enough advertising dollars to go around

640
00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:08,400
Speaker 1: for all the Internet companies, so there's a lot of

641
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,240
Speaker 1: barter advertising going on, which was getting accounted by a

642
00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 1: lot of companies as revenues, but it wasn't real revenues,

643
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 1: so there's some you know, some percentages phantom revenue. And

644
00:33:18,520 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 1: we could see that we're on the little, you know,

645
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: guinea pig wheel here, running as fast as we can,

646
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: and it's getting harder and harder to keep up with

647
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: that wheel. We can't feed the beast fast enough. So

648
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 1: we could see the writing on the wall here that

649
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 1: at some point the music is gonna stop and there

650
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: won't be enough chairs to go around. So we kept

651
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 1: playing the game and doing pretty well all the way

652
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 1: into the beginning of the two thousands. We had our

653
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: best quarter ever, which I believe was like a ten

654
00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 1: million dollar quarter million dollar a year a run rate,

655
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: which back then that was a big deal. But we

656
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: were still losing money. But that's when my partner and

657
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 1: I have felt like we couldn't keep up anymore. Um,

658
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 1: the sky was gonna start, it was gonna fall, and

659
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: it was gonna fall maybe on us first, and my

660
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: my partner and I taught, and I we ended up

661
00:34:03,360 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: resigning and bringing in a new CEO with more experience

662
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:08,959
Speaker 1: than us could. We could bring more discipline and maybe

663
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: help control costs and would maybe navigate what we thought

664
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 1: would be an upcoming storm better than us, and unfortunately,

665
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: you know, even though our revenues were climbing, traffic was climbing. Uh.

666
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,400
Speaker 1: We could see the storm coming. My partner and I resigned,

667
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 1: bring in the new CEO. And then months later, um,

668
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: other dot com started going under. They were running out

669
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: of cash, and then the stock market started to slide

670
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 1: over the course of like mid two thousand, spring of

671
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 1: two thousand, all the way until the beginning of two

672
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 1: thousand one. Everything fell, so, you know, the globe. Unfortunately,

673
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 1: we got called out early. As you know, this is

674
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 1: exactly what's wrong with the whole Internet space. It was

675
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,359
Speaker 1: always a giant hoax, you know, run by these dot

676
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 1: com kids. But two months later everyone went down. Yahoo,

677
00:34:56,400 --> 00:35:01,800
Speaker 1: Amazon drops in their stock. Um. Luckily for the big players,

678
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: they market consolidated under them, right, They got to buy

679
00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: a lot of companies up on the cheap, they got

680
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: to hoard enough cash, uh, and they made it through.

681
00:35:09,800 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah who obviously didn't make it through for very long

682
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: after the Internet renaissance, But out of the ashes, um,

683
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 1: you know, Amazon came back super strong, and then of course,

684
00:35:21,800 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: you know, the next generation portals came along, like Google,

685
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: and then eventually the next generation social networks like Facebook. Right,

686
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,719
Speaker 1: so there needed to be a total washout. All of

687
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,880
Speaker 1: the cost the costs of building dot coms needed to

688
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: come down for all these new second generation web two

689
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: point oh companies to sort of be borne out of

690
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: and have succeeded since. So what is it like on

691
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: a personal basis to go from hundred million dollars plastic

692
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: pants got the model girlfriend time to live an egregious,

693
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 1: frivolous life. Is I think you're quoted to assume something

694
00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: a little less egregious and frivolous, said a little less

695
00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: than a hundred million. I don't know what's that like?

696
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 1: And then how do you I mean, you have a

697
00:36:04,840 --> 00:36:06,320
Speaker 1: new company now, So what don't you just talk a

698
00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 1: little bit about because there's gonna be a lot of

699
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:09,879
Speaker 1: people right now going through that who were like, we're

700
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,920
Speaker 1: at a billion last year and now we're you know,

701
00:36:14,080 --> 00:36:17,640
Speaker 1: how do you how much that process? Like, look, I

702
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: went through an existential crisis when when the globe essentially

703
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:25,479
Speaker 1: folded a year later after the dot com bubble burst

704
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 1: and the Internet went under and the media was basically like,

705
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,400
Speaker 1: ha ha, we told you so you know I it

706
00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: made me question my own sanity. Wait, what were we

707
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: all crazy with what this internet thing could be? Were

708
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,319
Speaker 1: we crazy? What? So? What virtual community the potential it had?

709
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:44,520
Speaker 1: Maybe we were. And it took a couple more years

710
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: of licking my wounds and retreating from the world. And

711
00:36:49,000 --> 00:36:50,320
Speaker 1: by the way, by the end of all of this,

712
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: not only did I not have ninety seven million dollars,

713
00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: I was a million dollars in debt because I had

714
00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 1: borrowed a million dollars against my stock to try to

715
00:36:57,480 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: also bet on other dot COM's day went under, So

716
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, I'm retreating from the world. I

717
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: had to, you know, ask my parents to help me

718
00:37:07,880 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: with to keep my roof over my head. And I

719
00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:17,640
Speaker 1: barely pulled through financially. And luckily, the reason I was

720
00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,800
Speaker 1: able to pull through financially ultimately is because three or

721
00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 1: four years later, in two thousand four, the dot com

722
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: world came back with a vengeance. The Internet renaissance kicked in.

723
00:37:26,680 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: You know, Google appeared and then if Facebook appeared, and

724
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,799
Speaker 1: I was able to corral enough of my original investors

725
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:38,040
Speaker 1: who had made returns on the globe they had invested

726
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,440
Speaker 1: in early and sold at the I P O and

727
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 1: made a killing, and luckily many of them said, hey, steph,

728
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: whatever you do next, we're in okay. Um, well, I

729
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: don't want to run another company right now. I'm like

730
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: still in shell shock here. But I see a lot

731
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 1: of other entrepreneurs now who are going and doing their

732
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 1: second companies. So I think the Internet is really coming back.

733
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: And so I created a bunch of angel funds, brought

734
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 1: in my my angel investors alongside me, made some bets.

735
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: Those companies ended up doing really well. Uh without getting

736
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: through a list of all the things they did, they

737
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 1: were part of the new fabric of Internet two point oh.

738
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 1: And so that got me back in the game and

739
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: rebuilt my confidence as as an investor and as somebody

740
00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 1: who understood the market well enough to see what good

741
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 1: products might disrupt the world. Um, but you know, look,

742
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: it's to be honest, my confidence was really shaken as

743
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: a CEO, and as you know, had hitting such a

744
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: flying that close to the sun and having my wings melt.

745
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 1: It took me ten fifteen years to really want to

746
00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: to really consider getting back in the CEO set. And

747
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 1: just on that note, I mean, when you when you

748
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:49,680
Speaker 1: look at what's happening in markets, right now. I mean

749
00:38:49,760 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 1: like the nasdact down. I think so far this year

750
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 1: crypto crashing, people talking about a crypto winter. What do

751
00:38:56,960 --> 00:38:58,480
Speaker 1: you think is happening here? Is it? Is it the

752
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,720
Speaker 1: tech bubble all over again? Or is there something different

753
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 1: about this cycle? Nope, it's the same game, new players.

754
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 1: It's the same game. Uh. And it's it's It's quite obvious.

755
00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: And by the way, when I had my doubts and

756
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 1: I went lived, I got into bitcoin back when it

757
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:23,239
Speaker 1: was at Mount Cox at sixty dollars a bitcoin um

758
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: and I appreciate, enjoyed watching it go from sixty to

759
00:39:26,400 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: six and thought to myself, well, Jesus six d I

760
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,919
Speaker 1: better sell it now. And then it only went up further,

761
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:33,880
Speaker 1: so I bought back in and then it only crashed.

762
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: So I realized, Okay, me trying to time the market

763
00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: and figure out you know, mass investor psychology, uh is

764
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: not working. So what I'm gonna do here is go

765
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: to first principles. Is this a long hold? Is the

766
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,239
Speaker 1: promise of bitcoin or really brought more broadly, blockchain, does

767
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,680
Speaker 1: it really have the potential to change the world? And

768
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: my feeling was yeah, but this is actually more like

769
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 1: the dot com bubble before one point oh. This is

770
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 1: like the laying down of DARPA net. This is like

771
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: before people all get dial up modems and before all

772
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 1: of the great utilities of the Internet appeared. Right, this

773
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: is laying down the fabric of of the of web.

774
00:40:16,680 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 1: What is web three point oh now? And so I'm

775
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,280
Speaker 1: gonna be a long halt. And it's once I stopped

776
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 1: trying to bet the market and repeat people's minds and

777
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: tea leaves about buying and selling that I started to

778
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,600
Speaker 1: do really well. And I went through the first bubble

779
00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 1: and crypto winter, and then the second, and then the third.

780
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,239
Speaker 1: And it's in the third I c omania where I

781
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: was like, there's this other thing called Ethereum World computer.

782
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,880
Speaker 1: I'm all in on that, and it's the same thing.

783
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: It went all the way up, then came crashing all

784
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,359
Speaker 1: the way down, just kept holding. And if you look

785
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: at the four or five major bubbles and crypto winters

786
00:40:49,200 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: on a log arrhythmic scale, they keep moving up another

787
00:40:52,400 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: order of magnitude higher each time. And yes, because there's

788
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 1: a huge amount of speculation and there's a huge amount

789
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 1: of huge amount of capital and fomo and people growing

790
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,719
Speaker 1: money at bad blockchain concepts and bad level one or

791
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 1: bad level two or god knows, God knows what other

792
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:11,439
Speaker 1: ponzi schemes out there. But that's what had to happen

793
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:14,200
Speaker 1: with the Internet to begin with. Until you got to

794
00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 1: Internet two point oh, you could truly say Internet two

795
00:41:16,560 --> 00:41:19,600
Speaker 1: point oh was where the world discovered the real value

796
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: of the Internet. It just became hyper centralized. Well, we're

797
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: still most of the world hasn't even dipped their toe

798
00:41:26,120 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: in yet to crypto. Right, it's all been about the currency,

799
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:32,720
Speaker 1: not the utility. The utility it's all started and focused

800
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 1: on the lego blocks, the building lego blocks of the

801
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,239
Speaker 1: financial systems you defy, right, And then it started to

802
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: find a broader utility with n f t s, but

803
00:41:40,640 --> 00:41:44,600
Speaker 1: again very gimmicky like you know, board eight board apes

804
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 1: and yacht clubs and god knows what that that's cool

805
00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: for capturing people's imagination, but that's not the true unlocking

806
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: of the broader utility of what blockchain can do. That

807
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: will come later. So it's a ten to twenty year

808
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:01,320
Speaker 1: play before the world will discover the true utility with

809
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 1: a staying power um and that will become Web three

810
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: and I am beyond bullish despite seeing my crypto networth

811
00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:14,040
Speaker 1: plump plummet. No problem. I haven't been buying into it

812
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,280
Speaker 1: because of Fomo. I've been in it since the beginning

813
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:21,239
Speaker 1: and it's still early, early early days. Imagine people panicking

814
00:42:21,480 --> 00:42:24,359
Speaker 1: after Internet one point, oh bubble burst and dumping their

815
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 1: Amazon stock. Right there, We're dumping their Apple stock right there. Oh,

816
00:42:28,120 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 1: it's all going under. It's all a fat well. You

817
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 1: would have missed out on one of the greatest returns

818
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: you could have ever had in the history of investments

819
00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 1: with Amazon, So you got you gotta sit tight. Stefan Patterne.

820
00:42:39,640 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: Honestly a real pleasure, in a real sort of thrill

821
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,800
Speaker 1: to chat with you and some incredible lessons. I actually

822
00:42:45,840 --> 00:42:47,480
Speaker 1: like we hit we should we should have you back.

823
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: I think, you know, we could talk for like two

824
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: more hours about so many like here you talking about

825
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 1: capital markets and that process was fascinating. You can talk

826
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 1: longer just about like the period of be ingregiously rich.

827
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:01,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking about there's so much more. Thank you so

828
00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:04,160
Speaker 1: much for coming on, Odd Lodge. I thought there shows

829
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 1: like a real treat and some like extremely interesting perspective

830
00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: on the Internet and what's happening now in market. So

831
00:43:25,400 --> 00:43:28,000
Speaker 1: that was fantastic. I love that. I love that conversation.

832
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,239
Speaker 1: There were so many interesting things, you know. I was

833
00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: just looking at the Globes chart, you know, which was crazy. Yeah,

834
00:43:35,040 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 1: but it's crazy that you can still actually call that

835
00:43:36,920 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: up because I think it turned into so if you

836
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: have a terminal, you can look at the Globe dot com.

837
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,359
Speaker 1: I think it turned into like a shell company. Yeah,

838
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: and I think they were like doing voipe stuff for

839
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:47,919
Speaker 1: a while. But what's crazy, And Jim Channo has talked

840
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: about this in a recent episode, like how tiny it

841
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 1: was because like you know, he had his beak, it

842
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,200
Speaker 1: was like a hundred million. The company itself never was

843
00:43:55,280 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 1: worth a billion. And then of course last year with

844
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: like the Spacks, we'd have these like fort intollar companies

845
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: that didn't do it. It's crazy how small the numbers.

846
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: The other thing that struck me about that conversation was

847
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: when he was talking about get big fast, Yeah, and

848
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,240
Speaker 1: it does feel like a lot of startups have internalized

849
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:16,399
Speaker 1: that motto and you kind of wonder if it's ever

850
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 1: going to go away, or if like just raising as

851
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: much money as you can to get market share as

852
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:24,680
Speaker 1: quickly as possible expand as quickly as possible if that's

853
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: just the standard forever and the market injuries and through

854
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 1: line the fact that start that model like started Netscape

855
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: and now purveys through entrees and Horowitz. It's really interesting

856
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 1: also that the not just the get big fast, but

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Speaker 1: the cycle and how the late players entered the game

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Speaker 1: have to spend even more and so it creates this race.

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Speaker 1: And then to hear him describe how an early two thousand,

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Speaker 1: the sort of like hamster wheel is on, it's like

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00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: we can't We're spending so much money and it's just

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00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: like the marginal value of those acquisition dollars or growing

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00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:58,279
Speaker 1: traffic starts to decline. Like I think serious lessons for

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Speaker 1: like thinking about things that upen during this second but

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Speaker 1: also the realization that he described about having to bring

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00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: in a new CEO and someone who could actually instill

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Speaker 1: a capital discipline and maybe have like a bit more

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Speaker 1: of a strategy around finances, because it feels like with

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00:45:12,520 --> 00:45:15,279
Speaker 1: a lot of these startups by you know, I don't

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00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:16,960
Speaker 1: want to call him a tech bro, but you know,

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00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:22,480
Speaker 1: technology brother, technology brother, it feels like technology brother and sisters.

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00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: It feels like what you need to start something up successfully. Sorry,

873
00:45:28,040 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: in a garage and like developed new technology may not

874
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: be exactly what you need to run a multi billion

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00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 1: dollar company, right, Yeah, No, it's so much stuff. I

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00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: love that. We gotta have him back. Yeah, all right,

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Speaker 1: should we leave it that? Let's leave it there. Okay.

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Speaker 1: This has been another episode of the All Thoughts podcast.

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Speaker 1: I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me on Twitter at

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00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Wisenthal. You can follow me

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00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:54,800
Speaker 1: on Twitter at the Stalwart. Follow our guests Defawn Pattern

882
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: on Twitter, He's at Stefan Pattern, and check out his

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00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 1: book All About This, a very public offering the story

884
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: of the Globe dot Com in the first Internet Revolution.

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00:46:05,080 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 1: Follow our producer Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Arman, and check

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00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:11,920
Speaker 1: out all of our podcasts at Bloomberg under the handle

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00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:13,960
Speaker 1: at podcasts. Thanks for listening.