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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There's a reason I

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Speaker 1: think that people emphasize in any discussion that they have

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Speaker 1: about marriage, they emphasize the word trust. Why is that

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Speaker 1: some people can look at it from the perspective of

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Speaker 1: being faithful to your spouse. Some people might consider, well,

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Speaker 1: do I trust this individual? Do they trust me with

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Speaker 1: the finances? While others perhaps have an expected level of

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Speaker 1: trust when it comes to confidence that you can rely

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Speaker 1: on that person, that you can depend upon them when

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Speaker 1: times are really bad and they do get dark, they

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Speaker 1: do get dark. As many people can attest to, trust

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Speaker 1: goes even further. What about that kind of trust that

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Speaker 1: you have to have when it comes to your help,

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Speaker 1: when it comes to your existence. Today we're going to

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Speaker 1: have a discussion about trust, how much trust you put

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Speaker 1: in a person to watch after you and consider your

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Speaker 1: well be We're going to talk about a homicide that

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Speaker 1: has alleged to have been committed by something that seems

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Speaker 1: very benign. We're going to talk about the death of

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Speaker 1: Joseph Hartsfield. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks.

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Speaker 1: Dave mac my friend crime reporter with Crime Online. It's

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Speaker 1: amazing to me. I've worked in medical legal death investigation

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Speaker 1: for many years, and I know that most people think

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Speaker 1: at the line's share of deaths that we handle our homicides,

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Speaker 1: and it's not. That's something the police do. We handle

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Speaker 1: all the homicides, but we also handle everything else. And

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Speaker 1: to be a really good medical legal death investigator, you

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Speaker 1: have to want to understand the mechanisms of natural disease pathology.

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Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is that those things

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Speaker 1: that bring about death from a natural perspective, and heart

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Speaker 1: disease is the first thing that comes to mind. But

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Speaker 1: it's amazing nowadays how many people are diabetic.

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Speaker 2: When I first saw this story, Joe, my first question

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Speaker 2: was how this transpired, how long it took? What goes

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Speaker 2: into the complications surrounding insulin. I mean, we know people

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Speaker 2: die from diabetes. My grandfather was diabetic, and after having

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Speaker 2: his leg amputated and other things, he continued to go

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Speaker 2: down a path that eventually led to his death. In

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Speaker 2: this case, Sarah Hartsfield and her husband Joseph, we have

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Speaker 2: insulin as being part of the death. Am I am

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Speaker 2: I right in saying.

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Speaker 1: That, Yeah, You're absolutely right.

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Speaker 2: Okay, how can something that's supposed to be a life

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Speaker 2: saver turn into a mechanism of death.

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Speaker 1: It's almost as though when an individual is diagnosed with diabetes,

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Speaker 1: they are first off, it's not a death sentence. It's

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Speaker 1: something that you know, given modern medicine, that people can

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Speaker 1: live with and can have robust lives. You just got

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Speaker 1: to be really careful with what you're putting into your body.

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Speaker 1: Life and moderation. I think it really draws people back

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Speaker 1: to being centered in their life with what they consume,

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Speaker 1: how much they consume, and also how are you going

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Speaker 1: to regulate it? And you know, there's any number of

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Speaker 1: ways that you regulated because the idea here is that

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Speaker 1: the individual that is faced with this diagnosis is now

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Speaker 1: in a position for the rest of their lives that

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Speaker 1: they're going to have to monitor their blood sugar levels.

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Speaker 1: And this is done in a number of ways. We've

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Speaker 1: seen people that do the fingersticks that's been done for

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Speaker 1: years and years, where you get that sample of blood

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Speaker 1: and it goes onto a meter. There's actually an indwelling

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Speaker 1: monitors that you can have that are placed in these

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Speaker 1: out of view locations on the body that will send

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Speaker 1: signals to either a meter that you keep on your

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Speaker 1: person or maybe in your home or even on your phone.

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Speaker 1: There's actually apps for this now, and it will set

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Speaker 1: off an alarm if your insulin levels begin to spike

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Speaker 1: or to drop down desperately. What the individuals are faced

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Speaker 1: with is not just the diagnosis, but they're faced with

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Speaker 1: the fact that they're going to learn a lot about medicine.

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Speaker 1: Whereas you know some people, you know, they know that

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Speaker 1: they have a disease and they have to maintain a

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Speaker 1: particular healthy lifestyle. But now you're kind of playing junior chemist.

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Speaker 1: You're having to keep all of these things in balance

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Speaker 1: at a molecular level, and it's a daunting task for anyone.

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Speaker 1: The condition itself is so very subtle in many ways

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Speaker 1: that many folks don't realize that they're about to have

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Speaker 1: some kind of symptom that's going to pop up and

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Speaker 1: is really going to wreak havoc in their life. So

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Speaker 1: they have to be aware. They have to be sitting

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Speaker 1: sitting on go ready to interdict on their own behalf.

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Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to. You have to, I

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Speaker 1: hate to use the term advocate for yourself. It's not

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Speaker 1: about that. It's about, you know, treat yourself in those

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Speaker 1: moments and people go through education programs and that sort

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Speaker 1: of thing to do it. So the fact that mister

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Speaker 1: Hartsfield was in this position, it's not something that he

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Speaker 1: had just come to at this point in his life.

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Speaker 1: It's something that he had been having to be monitored

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Speaker 1: for a number of years probably, and he's relying on

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Speaker 1: his wife to help him out.

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Speaker 2: He was forty six years old, Joseph was and you

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Speaker 2: mentioned it wasn't something that just popped up one day.

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Speaker 2: He actually had been with it for a while and

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Speaker 2: Sarah was kind of brought into the fold here of

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Speaker 2: managing his diabetes. When you look at this case, the

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Speaker 2: death of Joseph Hartsfield in and of itself was not suspicious.

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Speaker 2: It was when the police looked into his wife how

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Speaker 2: she was reacting, because that was her reactions weren't something

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Speaker 2: they were familiar with. And do you take into account

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Speaker 2: the people closest to the victim and how they are

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Speaker 2: acting reacting to the situation that's going on, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: You do. It kind of integrates itself into your interactions

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Speaker 1: with the family to kind of begin to understand what

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Speaker 1: are their responses to these horrible events. And it look

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Speaker 1: not one size fits all with families and the way

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Speaker 1: they react to death. I've mentioned before that I've seen

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Speaker 1: people become almost catatonic. Literally they've got the thousand yard stare,

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Speaker 1: they won't respond to you, their numb on a very

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Speaker 1: deep level. And other people. I've seen people shrug their

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Speaker 1: shoulders and laugh. If you can imagine that, and it

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Speaker 1: does happen, then you have people that show what psychologists

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Speaker 1: and people like that will say an appropriate amount of grief.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know how you really take the measure

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Speaker 1: of that necessarily, but you get this feeling. I think

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Speaker 1: when you're an investigator and you begin to watch people,

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Speaker 1: you have other cases that you judge these individuals based

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Speaker 1: upon what have been the reactions of subjects that I

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Speaker 1: have total these things to in the past. When you're

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Speaker 1: discussing this with them, you kind of measure it by

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Speaker 1: that benchmark, taking into account whatever the relationship is to

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Speaker 1: this person. Is it something, for instance, where you have

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Speaker 1: a family member that comes to a home and finds

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Speaker 1: their elderly parent has passed away, what's their level of

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Speaker 1: expression with that. One of the most glaring things that

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Speaker 1: you hear is I just talked to them the other day.

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Speaker 1: They seem fine, or she had asked me to come over,

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Speaker 1: but I just I didn't have enough time, and they're

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Speaker 1: weeping over that. You get those kinds of responses and

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Speaker 1: you take all of those factors into consideration. Couple that

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Speaker 1: with things like their reaction when they see the body.

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Speaker 1: Maybe they're in the room with you as you're examining

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Speaker 1: the body. That does happen? What were their responses immediately

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Speaker 1: upon finding the individual? What were the steps that you took?

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Speaker 1: Did they wait a long time? Did they respond immediately

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Speaker 1: to finding the individual down? Did they call other people

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Speaker 1: and this happened. Sometimes you'll have family members that will

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Speaker 1: discover their loved ones deceased, and they won't call nine eleven.

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Speaker 1: They'll actually call a sister or brother, or an aunt

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Speaker 1: or an uncle before they'll ever call nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: And they have to be told by one of these

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Speaker 1: peripheral actors, and they're saying, you need to get off

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Speaker 1: the phone and call nine eleven and have them come

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Speaker 1: to the scene. You don't know if that's because they

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Speaker 1: were delaying perhaps that contact with people that could provide

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Speaker 1: life say measures, or if this is just a normal reaction.

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Speaker 1: You don't normally call none one one. You call people

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Speaker 1: in your immediate circle that are going to comfort you

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Speaker 1: and advise you in those sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: Joseph Hartsfield died as a direct result of insulin as

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Speaker 2: complications is how it was worthy complications from an insulin issue.

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Speaker 2: They started looking into it. Wait a minute, Sarah was

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Speaker 2: not acting the way they thought was appropriate to the situation.

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Speaker 2: And the sheriff looks into it and says, wait a minute,

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Speaker 2: how many hours did you wait before you called for

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Speaker 2: help with them. It's not like diabetes just showed up yesterday.

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Speaker 2: So they knew from a very early standpoint that something

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Speaker 2: was not quite right.

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Speaker 1: Mister Hartsfield actually had an alarm that would go off.

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Speaker 1: There was an indicator that there was something wrong, and

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Speaker 1: of course the police believed that there was something sinister

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Speaker 1: going on. I guess probably my favorite Indiana Jones movie

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Speaker 1: is probably the Last Crusade. I love the spiritual element

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Speaker 1: of it. I certainly love it when you know they

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Speaker 1: finally make their way into the chamber and the villain

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Speaker 1: drinks from the wrong chalice, and the old knight is

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Speaker 1: sitting there and as the guy kind of melts away,

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Speaker 1: he looks at Indiana Jones, and he says he chose poorly.

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Speaker 1: I think about that in the case of mister Hartsfield's passing,

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Speaker 1: there is something that's kind of ominous about this person

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Speaker 1: that he made a choice to marry the person of

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Speaker 1: Sarah Hartsfield. I'd say that he probably dave. He probably

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Speaker 1: chose poorly.

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Speaker 2: Sarah Hartsfield and Joseph Hartsville got together about the same age.

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Speaker 2: They have had different backgrounds, in particular with Sarah Hartsfield

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Speaker 2: when you look at the partners up until the time

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Speaker 2: that she and Joseph Hartsville got together in February of

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty two. They met online, by the way, something

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Speaker 2: that in the last twenty years has become a real thing.

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Speaker 2: But when you meet online, oftentimes you don't know a

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Speaker 2: lot about the background of the individual. You only know

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Speaker 2: what they let you in on, what they tell you about.

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Speaker 2: And that's a little different than when you're dating somebody

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Speaker 2: and you know a little bit about their background geographically,

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Speaker 2: might be from the same area, you have some common interests,

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Speaker 2: in common background, and you can share a lot of

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Speaker 2: these things. Well, they met online, and maybe she was

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Speaker 2: able to spin a story of her background because Sarah

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Speaker 2: Hartsfield had five husbands. Things started in the mid nineties,

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Speaker 2: from husband number one to husband number five and a fiance.

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Speaker 2: There's seemed to be an escalation of pain inflicted on

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Speaker 2: the partner. In her first marriage, there was some domestic abuse.

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Speaker 2: She actually was arrested in the first year of that

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Speaker 2: marriage her first husband for fighting. Charges will drop later,

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Speaker 2: but that's the start of her marriage career. When you

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Speaker 2: go through the years of her dating and all the

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Speaker 2: way to twenty eighteen, where now she's on husband number

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Speaker 2: three and a half number four and engaged to a guy,

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Speaker 2: David Bragg. At the time, she was known as Sarah Donahue,

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Speaker 2: and she shot and killed David Bragg during an argument

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Speaker 2: that got physical. She claimed self defense. No charges were

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Speaker 2: ever filed. That case has since been reopened. So we

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Speaker 2: go to Sarah Hartsfield, married to Joseph Hartsfield. He dies

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Speaker 2: and the police find out that he is bad shape.

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Speaker 2: For a number of hours, she doesn't call for help.

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Speaker 2: She doesn't call nine to one one. She has been

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Speaker 2: living with this man with diabetes for every year, day

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Speaker 2: in and day out, helping him manage his diabetes. But

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Speaker 2: she allowed the man to suffer for hours before ever

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Speaker 2: calling for help, and that's where the sheriff said things

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Speaker 2: just didn't add up. But the sheriff said, if the

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Speaker 2: hospital didn't call us, our officers didn't get involved, make

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Speaker 2: good decisions, we would not be here. And potentially she

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Speaker 2: could have gotten away with murder because it was at

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Speaker 2: the very beginning the hospital staff going to the deputy

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Speaker 2: said hey man, there's something not right here, and the

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Speaker 2: deputy looking into it and they start following her background

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Speaker 2: and they see this escalation from domestic violence in her

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Speaker 2: first marriage to killing a man with a gun, and

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Speaker 2: now you've got another dead guy, this time from insulin.

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Speaker 2: So they opened the case. They started digging in. How

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Speaker 2: can you tell that somebody has died from complications due

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Speaker 2: to insulin? What does diabetes do to a person, and

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Speaker 2: how does it lead to this type of death?

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Speaker 1: Excellent question, And this is all going to be revealed

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Speaker 1: at all autopsy because the medical examiner in this case

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Speaker 1: conducted their examination. They had their suspicions. And do you

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Speaker 1: know how I can tell that anytime you see an

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Speaker 1: initial cause of death listed as undetermined, you know that

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Speaker 1: something else is going on in the background. They're seeing

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Speaker 1: something that has actually occurred that could be indicative of

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Speaker 1: more than meets the eye. Here's one of the problems

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Speaker 1: that I have with the way this case was initially handled.

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Speaker 1: For years, we've seen images of a vial of insulin.

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Speaker 1: It's a separate vial. It looks like just kind of

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Speaker 1: any other injectable that you might see, say at emergency

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Speaker 1: room or doctor's office anywhere, and then you take what

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Speaker 1: people refer to as an insulin needle. It's a very

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Speaker 1: fine point because it just goes into what's referred to

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Speaker 1: as SubQ fat, which is that layer of fat that's

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Speaker 1: just below the skin, and as the insulin is injected,

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Speaker 1: it's kind of gradually absorbed into the system and becomes

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Speaker 1: part and parcel of regulating the metabolism, because that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that's going on. You know, Insulin is

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Speaker 1: actually a hormone is produced by the pancreas, and these

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Speaker 1: little islets they don't function correctly for any number of reasons.

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Speaker 1: You can have kind of type one diabetes that people

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Speaker 1: come into refer to many times as juvenile diabetes, and

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Speaker 1: then you have type two which comes along and it

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Speaker 1: can result from any number of factors. Obesity is one

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Speaker 1: of those things that comes into play. Certain people have

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Speaker 1: indicated that there might be a connection with some of

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Speaker 1: the foods that we ingest nowadays as opposed in the past.

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Speaker 1: Some people think that that's because our food is so

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Speaker 1: highly processed now that that might be one of the

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Speaker 1: issues that comes up. There are certain medications that some

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Speaker 1: believe that bring about diabetes as well that we take.

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Speaker 1: But at autopsy you would draw blood and there will

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Speaker 1: be tests that are done and conducted. The medical examiner

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Speaker 1: saw something in there that gave them an indication that

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Speaker 1: he was in a critical state as far as his diabetes.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that was indicated at the scene

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Speaker 1: that I really have trouble with is that Dave there

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Speaker 1: were we're referred to as insulin pens for folks that

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Speaker 1: have never seen one. They actually do look like pins

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Speaker 1: with a cap on them, okay, and it's got a

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Speaker 1: graduated dial on it that tells you the number of

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Speaker 1: units that you're going to inject into that sub Q

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Speaker 1: fatty area generally around the stomach. You can dial up

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Speaker 1: the amount of insulin you're going to take in Dave

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Speaker 1: there were eight of these on his nightstand and they

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Speaker 1: weren't collected at that time.

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Speaker 2: Well, we'd n't expect to find.

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Speaker 1: Well, for one, if you've for one, you have to

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Speaker 1: keep insulin refrigerated. Man, And that's that's a I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's staple up to a point. Now. I guess

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Speaker 1: if you were living in a house that the temperature

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Speaker 1: at sixty two degrees, perhaps even then you don't want

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Speaker 1: to run the risk. I've gone out to many scenes

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Speaker 1: over the course of my career, and you know what

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Speaker 1: the most common location is. You'll you'll find insulin stored

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Speaker 1: in and a refrigerator.

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Speaker 2: Take a while, guess I'm butter.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're absolutely right. You nailed it. You nailed it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: actually in the butter container. And the reason is is

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Speaker 1: that many times it's at eye level, depending upon obviously

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Speaker 1: the configuration of the refrigerator, but it's right there. Diabetics

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Speaker 1: don't keep their butter and their insulin side by side.

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Speaker 1: But what you do is that you can visualize it,

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Speaker 1: and you can see it in at eye level with

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Speaker 1: the old vials. You can see how much insulin you

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Speaker 1: have remaining. Okay, it's a fragile medication and something that

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Speaker 1: you and so I couldn't really understand why it was there,

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Speaker 1: would he stockpile them after they were being used, perhaps,

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Speaker 1: you know, just to keep kind of understand the pacing

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Speaker 1: which he was using it. You know, when do I

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Speaker 1: need to reorder met the request for a refill at

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Speaker 1: this point in time. If a cop a cop shows

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Speaker 1: up at a scene, say it's a young uniform officer, which,

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Speaker 1: by the way, you're not going to call the medical

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Speaker 1: examiner necessarily immediately as soon as you find somebody deceased,

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Speaker 1: particularly if they've got a long standing medical history. I've

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Speaker 1: taken any number of calls over the phone from family

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Speaker 1: members that awaken the morning they find their loved one deceased,

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Speaker 1: and young police officer will be dispatched as a result

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Speaker 1: of nine to eleven being called, and they'll be at

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Speaker 1: the scene and they'll say, well, yeah, investigative Morgan, I

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Speaker 1: see this medication out here. The wife is telling me

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Speaker 1: got a long history of diabetes or heart disease, or

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Speaker 1: you know, he's being treated for all these other things.

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Speaker 1: If the medical examiner is working in another case, they

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Speaker 1: might say, well, we're going to have the funeral home

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Speaker 1: bring the body by the emmy's office before the funeral

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Speaker 1: home for preparation. Will draw talks on them, do an

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Speaker 1: external exam, and then release them from the medical examiner's office.

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Speaker 1: And in some cases they'll release the body directly from

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Speaker 1: the scene. Generally that requires a visit by the EMMY

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Speaker 1: investigator or the corner to come out out and take

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Speaker 1: a look. So I found that quite fascinating. In this case,

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Speaker 1: she's also got an alarm on her phone day that

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Speaker 1: went off. Here's the thing about it. If you're connected

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Speaker 1: electronically to a censor that is giving you readings on

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Speaker 1: the person that essentially have agreed to take care of

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Speaker 1: through this marriage contract and you're not taking care of them,

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Speaker 1: that suspicious in and of itself. When they begin to

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Speaker 1: kind of dig into her behaviors how long it took

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Speaker 1: her to call nine to eleven. You have these kind

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Speaker 1: of active and passive events that happened many times with

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Speaker 1: alleged homicides. If we think about kind of in an

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Speaker 1: active phase, that's an individual that picks up an instrument

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Speaker 1: and can bludge in somebody to death or shoot them

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Speaker 1: or as this accused Miss Hartsville had done years before

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Speaker 1: with this other individual shees involved when she shot them.

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Speaker 1: That's an active event. Okay, then you have these more

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Speaker 1: passive things, because you can kind of if you're questioning

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Speaker 1: these types of people, you can kind of look at

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Speaker 1: them and go, well, the alarm goes off all the time,

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Speaker 1: which he actually stated it goes off all the time.

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Speaker 1: And I really wasn't paying real close attention to this.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, I've gotten up and given him some juice.

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Speaker 1: I'd try to offer him some jam, these sorts of things.

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Speaker 1: So now you're thinking, from an investigative standpoint, does this

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Speaker 1: marry up with what would be considered their norm. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the alarm goes off all the time. I've gotten now

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Speaker 1: where I ignore it or is it something that is

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Speaker 1: darker where you're purposing to weaponize insulin or the use

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Speaker 1: of insulin.

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Speaker 2: I'm really stuck on the eight pens on the nightstand,

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Speaker 2: and we've got the hospital calling. In this particular case

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Speaker 2: with Joseph Hartsfield, the hospital calls the Sheriff's department says, hey,

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Speaker 2: we've got a suspicious illness. Joseph Hartsfield had not died yet.

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Speaker 2: The hospital called and said, we have a suspicious illness.

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Speaker 2: And because his insulin levels were extremely high, what would

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Speaker 2: happen with somebody who is insulin dependent diabetic. If they

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Speaker 2: were given too much insulin over a period of time.

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Speaker 1: The individual's going down a very dark path. And I

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Speaker 1: literally mean that you can wind up in a coma

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Speaker 1: as a result of it, where everything kind of shuts down.

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Speaker 1: And when you've got somebody that has they go into hypoglycemia,

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Speaker 1: that means their sugar is dropping precipitously. You'll see them

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Speaker 1: where they'll get irritable, they can get double vision. Many times,

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Speaker 1: they're sweating profusely, they're kind of disoriented to time and space,

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Speaker 1: they're dizzy, They a little bit of confusion, and they

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Speaker 1: get the shakes too, pretty bad. But when you get

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Speaker 1: up into that upper range, and sometimes that can be

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Speaker 1: moderated just by I don't know if you've you've ever

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Speaker 1: heard there are diabetics that will carry like a pack

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Speaker 1: of mints perhaps in their in their pocket, and if

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Speaker 1: they feel their their bloodshell is beginning to drop, you know,

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Speaker 1: they'll pop a mint in their mouth and it'll give

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Speaker 1: them just enough sugar to kind of readjust Some people

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Speaker 1: use things like raisins, for instance, if they don't want

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Speaker 1: to use some kind of highly refined sugar. But when

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Speaker 1: you start to get off into this severe level of hypoglypcemia,

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Speaker 1: they get into a state which is referred to as

376
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Speaker 1: insolent shock. It's very dangerous because it can lead to

377
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Speaker 1: you can have seizures, They certainly can't focus on anything.

378
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Speaker 1: You'll have like slurred speech, they have their uneven gait,

379
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Speaker 1: it's hard for them to actually ambulate and to walk,

380
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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. And then finally they'll go into

381
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Speaker 1: an unconscious state and then that again goes into this

382
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Speaker 1: area of being comatose. And that's essentially what had happened

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Speaker 1: with mister Hartsfield. At this point in time. He kind

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Speaker 1: of was in this vegetative state in the hospital. And

385
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Speaker 1: at that point you begin to try to understand why,

386
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Speaker 1: why suddenly is this fellow who's obviously been dealing with

387
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Speaker 1: diabetes for a protracted period of time, Why is it

388
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Speaker 1: that suddenly he kind of falls off the cliff. There's

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00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 1: been no prior indication that his medication needed to be

390
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Speaker 1: adjusted or anything like this, so why now? And when

391
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Speaker 1: you begin to dig into this as a medical investigator,

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Speaker 1: you begin to see that there are some other things

393
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Speaker 1: that are there that might give you pause that this

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Speaker 1: case needs to be looked into a bit more in depth.

395
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Speaker 1: There's homicides, and then there are those cases that don't

396
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Speaker 1: really know if there are homicides, and how do we

397
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Speaker 1: define a homicide. We always have to return back to that,

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Speaker 1: and I will on my podcast. I will always remind

399
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Speaker 1: you of that, and that is, if we're talking about

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Speaker 1: a homicide, that is the death of an individual at

401
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Speaker 1: the hand of another. And that's very simple. It's a

402
00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: very simple way of understanding this. And you're not sitting

403
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Speaker 1: in judgment as a court of Lawwood, You're merely stating

404
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 1: a fact that there is at least an indication that

405
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,719
Speaker 1: this individual may have died at the hand of another.

406
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Speaker 1: But in a case like mister Hartsville's death, this is

407
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Speaker 1: something that's going to require a bit more rigor. It's

408
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Speaker 1: going to require a bit more digging into, as opposed

409
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Speaker 1: to something that might be more trauma related like a gunshot,

410
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Speaker 1: wound or a knife.

411
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Speaker 2: In this alleged murder, and again alleged because she has

412
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Speaker 2: not been convicted and she says she's not guilty. My

413
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,479
Speaker 2: bad decision was picking bad husbands. That's what she actually

414
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Speaker 2: has said, paraphrasing. But when I was looking back at this,

415
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 2: she was an army and so it's her first husband. Well,

416
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Speaker 2: his best friend, also in the army, was Sarah Hartsfield's

417
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Speaker 2: second husband. Okay, so the first two marriages of her

418
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:15,199
Speaker 2: life were military. Well, I wondered about when people in

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Speaker 2: the military have an affair, aren't there issues they deal

420
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Speaker 2: with with the army that goes beyond just regularly we're

421
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Speaker 2: getting a divorce because here she geated.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they do. And I think a lot of it

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Speaker 1: comes down to, you know, whether or not Jack, who's

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Speaker 1: the judge Advocate General, is actually going to charge somebody,

425
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Speaker 1: because did you know, Dave, you can actually be charged

426
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Speaker 1: with adultery. Isn't a fence in the military, And there's

427
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,680
Speaker 1: a lot of reasons why it is. It falls under

428
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:43,640
Speaker 1: what's called Article one point thirty four. If you engage

429
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Speaker 1: in adulterous behavior while you're in the military, under a

430
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: uniform Code of Military Justice, you can be charged. And

431
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Speaker 1: there's apparently in her history there's there's multiple episodes of this.

432
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: You're held to this kind of higher standard, and there's

433
00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,679
Speaker 1: a lot of jokes that made faithfulness and being in

434
00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,880
Speaker 1: the military and choices that people make, particularly when they're young,

435
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: but this is a harsh, cold reality that I don't

436
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,200
Speaker 1: think many people are aware of. It's not like being

437
00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 1: in civilian world. It's a completely different justice system. And

438
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,000
Speaker 1: there's evidence that she they missus Hartsfield as she's known now,

439
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 1: was never interdicted for this behavior. Perhaps in the military.

440
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 1: I really wonder if that may have played a role,

441
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 1: because she wound up, according to reports, retiring from the military.

442
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 1: That means that she made it through to the end

443
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,920
Speaker 1: where she received was referred to as a d D

444
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 1: two fourteen, which you know, means that you've served, you've

445
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: served honorably, and you're there honorably therefore honorably discharged from

446
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 1: the military. She was an enlisted person. That begs the question.

447
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: And also these domestic violence issues that have arisen, and

448
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: this has been a problem in the military. You know,

449
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 1: over the years, you have people that don't get along well,

450
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: they wind up fighting, there might be children involved, and

451
00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: the military looks at this, or has in the past,

452
00:27:00,680 --> 00:27:04,080
Speaker 1: looked at it as kind of a cohesion issue. If

453
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: an individual winds up committing an adultery or winds up

454
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 1: involved in domestic abuse, that disrupts the form and function

455
00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,120
Speaker 1: of the military, you know how it's going to operate

456
00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 1: because if you've got spouses that are engaged in adulterous behavior,

457
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 1: particularly if it's between two individuals that are currently serving,

458
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: that creates a problem with unit cohesion, problems with people

459
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: getting along, being able to serve along side one another,

460
00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:34,880
Speaker 1: particularly if you're called to go fight. It's very dangerous

461
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,600
Speaker 1: set of circumstances. And it seems as though that miss

462
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 1: Hartsfield she lived kind of on the edge throughout her life.

463
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 2: In this particular case where you've got a suspicious illness

464
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:47,439
Speaker 2: and later deemed a suspicious death, do you, as a

465
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: forensic individual, as you look into the case right in

466
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 2: front of you, you're looking at at a person who

467
00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: was in a really bad way physically for a number

468
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 2: of hours before the person who has has sworn to love,

469
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:04,399
Speaker 2: honor and chairs calls for help. Do you not peel

470
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,040
Speaker 2: back that onion and start going okay, Husband number one,

471
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 2: Husband number two, three, four, Oh wait a minute, we've

472
00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: got a fiance in here who's also dead. There's like

473
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 2: an escalation of starting down here where you have a

474
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: fight in the second marriage that leads to somebody spending

475
00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 2: the night in jail, to a fiance being shot in

476
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 2: what is that first determined to be self defense, but

477
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 2: later it's like, well maybe not. And now we actually

478
00:28:29,800 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: have somebody who has gone from suspicious illness to suspicious

479
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: death that wasn't just pulling out a gun and shooting

480
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 2: and saying it a self defense. That had to have

481
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 2: been planned.

482
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, allegedly it would have had to have been planned.

483
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: And it's certainly something that there's been evidence of other

484
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: people that have done this over the years, that have

485
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: used this methodology to bring about the death of an

486
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: individual that is in their charge, if you will. And

487
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,040
Speaker 1: so yeah, it's easy to I think that it's very

488
00:28:59,080 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 1: easy to kind of utilized that as a tool of death,

489
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: if you will. And it's very passive, isn't it. It's

490
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 1: very kind of camouflaged. This individual that has this disease

491
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 1: is at the mercy of individuals that they're trusting, right,

492
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: And so in law enforcement and investigations, you don't necessarily

493
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:23,160
Speaker 1: go out looking for this type of modality when it

494
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: comes to a cause of death. Obviously the fallback position

495
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: for everybody, and I'm guilty of it too. You think

496
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 1: about this huge level of violence, right, how many violent

497
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 1: cases have we covered on body backs? Certainly more than

498
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 1: anything that say, where a medical condition could be utilized

499
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,640
Speaker 1: as a weapon. There are a number of cases that

500
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 1: are out there where people are, particularly in the medical field,

501
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: where people refer to and I know you've heard this

502
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 1: over the course of your career. I know you've heard

503
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,520
Speaker 1: this term angels of death now where individuals are in

504
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,880
Speaker 1: clinical settings where they take people's lives by using medication

505
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:01,760
Speaker 1: to facilitate this, or even worse, where they fail to

506
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 1: render aid. And you'll see that happen as well. And

507
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: it's a very you know, you talk about peeling the onion,

508
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: and it's very difficult to conduct an investigation when you

509
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have this level of sophistication when it comes

510
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: to medical conditions and understanding disease pathology. And that's why

511
00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: it's so very important that the medical examiner get involved

512
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: in these cases. In the corner's office get involved in

513
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: these cases because a case like this Dave is going

514
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,680
Speaker 1: to require a deep dive that not many are equipped

515
00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:44,280
Speaker 1: to deal with. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is

516
00:30:44,400 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 1: body bags