1 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: Y'all, Welcome to Pathology with Doctor Pria. Today is going 2 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: to be I think probably one of the most in 3 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:21,919 Speaker 1: depth sessions we've had. I am literally gonna just turn 4 00:00:21,960 --> 00:00:25,599 Speaker 1: this over to doctor Pria. Today we're going to be 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:31,360 Speaker 1: talking about Ellen Greenberg. Ellen was found dead in her apartment. 6 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,320 Speaker 1: She had twenty stab wounds to her head, neck and 7 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: torso and twenty bruises. It was ruled a suicide. There 8 00:00:42,120 --> 00:00:47,640 Speaker 1: has now been a second autopsy where they notated twenty 9 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 1: three stab wounds and thirty one bruises, but again ruled 10 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 1: it a suicide. There were no signs of struggle. But y'all, 11 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: here's the deal. Nicole Brown was murdered. There was no 12 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: signs of struggle there either. Not having signs of struggle. 13 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: To me, with a straight edge weapon does not necessarily 14 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:18,479 Speaker 1: dictate suicide. If you are stabbed almost gravely one time, 15 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:24,759 Speaker 1: you typically go to the ground and you're not moving. So, 16 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:28,119 Speaker 1: doctor Pria, I know you have looked at this case. 17 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: I know you've talked to Joe jackalone about it, the 18 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: sergeant with NYPD, you've talked I think on other shows 19 00:01:35,160 --> 00:01:39,959 Speaker 1: about it. But if you would just go injury by injury, 20 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 1: stab wound by stab, wound, bruise by bruce, and let 21 00:01:44,680 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: us hear your thoughts. 22 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:50,280 Speaker 2: Okay, let me sort of approach it how I approach 23 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:55,840 Speaker 2: any case, and then we will maybe get into specifics 24 00:01:56,000 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: about this case. Okay, I think there's some important back 25 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 2: ground that we need to lay foundational knowledge. Sharp force 26 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 2: injuries is one of the common broader categories of injury 27 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 2: types that we see in forensic pathology. So I have 28 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 2: a whole lecture on this, I've taught it at different levels. 29 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:23,520 Speaker 2: So what does that mean? That means the mechanism of injury, 30 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:28,799 Speaker 2: how the injury occurred is by a weapon that has 31 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:34,640 Speaker 2: a at least one sharp edge. Okay. Now, typically when 32 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 2: we think about it, we think about a knife, right 33 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:44,800 Speaker 2: as the most common weapon that has has at least 34 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: one single edge that's sharp. So they can be a 35 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,200 Speaker 2: knife can be single or double edged. Okay, double edge 36 00:02:51,200 --> 00:02:55,239 Speaker 2: meaning too sharp, not two sharp edges, excuse me. Or 37 00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 2: single edge meaning one blunt edge and the opposite edge 38 00:03:00,400 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 2: being the sharp cutting side of things. Okay, Now I'm 39 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 2: not getting into specific knives. Knives can vary in terms 40 00:03:08,200 --> 00:03:11,760 Speaker 2: of a knife can have double edge characteristics then change 41 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:15,839 Speaker 2: into single or vice versa. There's so many different types 42 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:17,800 Speaker 2: of knives out there, and I don't even pretend to 43 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 2: be an expert in them, but I have encountered sharp 44 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,960 Speaker 2: force deaths using a variety of weapons, okay, And I 45 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:26,919 Speaker 2: just want to touch on that that you need to 46 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: keep your mind open that it's not always a knife, okay, 47 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 2: And I'm not talking pocket knife versus hunting knife. It 48 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,960 Speaker 2: could be something totally different. So it can be scissors, okay, 49 00:03:39,080 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: it can be an axe that has both slicing and 50 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: like chopping wounds, which are sharp and blunt type injuries. 51 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: You can have propeller injuries that also have like sharp 52 00:03:51,240 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 2: and blunt you know, aspects to them. I think often 53 00:03:56,640 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 2: like a broken wine bottle or beer bottle can have 54 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 2: very sharp edges, so you need to think sort of 55 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 2: more broadly, okay. And then you could even have a tip, 56 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 2: very rare cases, like I've had an ice pick right 57 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,040 Speaker 2: that has like a pointy tip and goes in and 58 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:19,919 Speaker 2: make sort of the same They're very small holes, but 59 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: still stabs deep into the body. Now, when I say 60 00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: stab deep into the body, I want to really focus 61 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 2: on that word stabbing, okay, or stab wound. So there 62 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 2: is a very specific medical definition for stab wound versus 63 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 2: insized or cutting wounds. Okay, And what this means is 64 00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 2: this is getting into forensic pathology. But I'm a stickler 65 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 2: for definitions because I you know, this is where my 66 00:04:47,000 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 2: expertise is, and I want to make sure I'm clearly 67 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 2: using the right terminology for others to understand. So, a 68 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:58,279 Speaker 2: stab wound, by definition, is a caused by a sharp 69 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 2: instrument but yields a wound that is deeper within the 70 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,599 Speaker 2: body than it is long on the surface. Okay. So 71 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: let's say it's an inch long on the surface, but 72 00:05:10,360 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 2: it enters the body and the wound goes three inches in. 73 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: So you could be stabbed with a screwdriver. 74 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:19,240 Speaker 2: Correct, right, because it's a small, tiny little hole, but 75 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 2: you're still going to get a much deeper path into 76 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:27,120 Speaker 2: the body. And that's why it's so injurious. Okay. And 77 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: then the sort of sister act to that is a 78 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 2: cutting or insized wound. I just use cutting wound. I 79 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,920 Speaker 2: think that's how I was trained. But these are synonyms 80 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: for the same thing, which means it is a longer 81 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 2: wound on the surface than it is deep into the body. Okay, 82 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 2: Now what I don't like people to assume is that 83 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 2: one is more injurious than the other. Okay. So, and 84 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 2: the perfect example is when if you were to take 85 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: a knife and cut my throat from ear to ear, 86 00:06:03,160 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 2: across the sides, and across the front of my neck, right, 87 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 2: that might be six eight inches okay, but then let's 88 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 2: say it's only three inches deep, and I say only, 89 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 2: but you're gonna hit the major arteries and veins on 90 00:06:18,760 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 2: both sides, right, the jugular, the carotids, You're gonna go 91 00:06:22,040 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: through my windpipe. Maybe my esophag isn't even all the 92 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: way to the spinal column. Okay. So it's not that 93 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: one is more deadly or less deadly than the other. 94 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: But we need to be accurate when we talk about 95 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:42,720 Speaker 2: these as defining terms because they imply characteristics of the wounds. Okay. Now, 96 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 2: the one thing that is different in a stab wound 97 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:52,320 Speaker 2: when we look at the surface, it leaves like an impression, 98 00:06:53,720 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 2: or you can deduce some characteristics of the weapon, i e. 99 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 2: Single or double edged nature. Okay, Now this is getting 100 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:09,159 Speaker 2: into the technicalities. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't, 101 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 2: so you know, but we can sometimes tell there's a 102 00:07:12,080 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 2: blunt edge and a sharp edge depending on the nature 103 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: of the wound in an ideal setting, but in any 104 00:07:18,360 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 2: kind of incized wound, because it's dragging across the surface 105 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: and not really entering deep, you're not going to be 106 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 2: able to characterize the knife or the instrument that's used. Okay, 107 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 2: I am going to say knife because we know in 108 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 2: Allen's case it was a knife. So I just want 109 00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 2: to be less vague as we continue our conversation, and 110 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: we don't need to get into like I mean, I'm 111 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 2: not teaching medical doctors how to measure them and describe them, 112 00:07:45,240 --> 00:07:47,040 Speaker 2: so we're just going to be a little bit more general. 113 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 2: Like you know, know that they can be oriented in 114 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 2: different directions. They can go diagonally, straight, across, straight, down, right, 115 00:07:54,400 --> 00:07:57,680 Speaker 2: and so where on the body it is, you know, 116 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 2: whether it's a stab wound or cut wound, and what 117 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: is injured or all very important elements to document about 118 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 2: every wound. Okay. Now, sometimes you hear the word defensive wounds. 119 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: You know you've mentioned this, and what I want to 120 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:18,240 Speaker 2: get into is what is a defensive wound? Okay? So 121 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:24,840 Speaker 2: what defensive wound is typically seen in someone who is 122 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 2: being injured? Okay, So it is a very natural process 123 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:31,560 Speaker 2: for us to put our hands over our face or 124 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 2: protect our neck or fight back, because I mean, we 125 00:08:35,480 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 2: don't have to be trained in jiu jitsu or karate. 126 00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 2: This is just a natural reflex, you know, a life 127 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 2: saving reflex. Right, if someone's coming at you, you're not 128 00:08:43,920 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: going to stand there and take it. You're going to 129 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: fight back. Okay, whether you're a trained martial artist or 130 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 2: a little grandma, do you understand, like it's just a reflex. 131 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 2: So I want to say that is why we look 132 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 2: for them or anything that might be characteristic of a 133 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:05,440 Speaker 2: defensive wound. Okay, I'm never gonna just call something a 134 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 2: defensive wound. What they are usually are like small wounds 135 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,520 Speaker 2: on the fingers, the hands, even the forearms, right if 136 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 2: you're using it to defend yourself, a shield yourself. And 137 00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: so usually they're just slices, so I e. Slicing wounds 138 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:26,800 Speaker 2: or insized wounds, cutting wounds. Okay, there, but the location 139 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 2: and the characteristic nature of them being there tells us 140 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,880 Speaker 2: that the victim fought back. Okay, So that's why they're 141 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 2: defensive in nature. So I can say it is my 142 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 2: medical opinion that this cluster or the ones on the 143 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 2: hands are characteristic of defensive wounds. Okay, Now you also 144 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: have to remember other body parts move, so if someone 145 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:55,440 Speaker 2: is pushed back onto the floor, they can often like 146 00:09:55,679 --> 00:10:00,960 Speaker 2: even have you know, they can use their feet, right, 147 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,440 Speaker 2: and there are legs to fight back depending on the 148 00:10:04,559 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 2: nature of the altercation. So we always look at the 149 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 2: legs and feet for defensive wounds too. Characteristically it's the 150 00:10:15,280 --> 00:10:18,839 Speaker 2: hands maybe the forms, you know. But I'm just saying 151 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:21,640 Speaker 2: to think outside the box a little bit. So that's 152 00:10:21,679 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: basically the forensic pathology of sharp force wounds, which I 153 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 2: think will allow for a more meaningful conversation as we 154 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 2: face this discussion. I also want to talk about cause 155 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:37,800 Speaker 2: and manner of death as it relates to this case, 156 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 2: because boy, it's been all over the place, and I 157 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 2: think the most fundamental thing is this is just my 158 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 2: opinion on the case. Okay. I have never been and 159 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 2: I want to say that because I went to med 160 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 2: school in Philly, right and I trained an internal medicine 161 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 2: for a year in Philly. But I have no connection 162 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 2: to the Philadelphia Medical Examiner office. I don't actually know 163 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,000 Speaker 2: anybody in that office practicing, and I don't know the 164 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 2: doctor Simon personally. So there's no ill will, nothing, nothing 165 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,560 Speaker 2: going on. It's purely commentary on this case and professional 166 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 2: you know, Roles. So we know that the cause of 167 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:24,560 Speaker 2: death in Ellen is I would certified as multiple shark 168 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:27,040 Speaker 2: force injuries or stab wounds, whatever you want to call it. 169 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: So it's the sharp force injuries and the bleeding out 170 00:11:30,600 --> 00:11:34,440 Speaker 2: from those injuries that cause their death. Now it's really 171 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 2: the manner of death which is being discussed here, right 172 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: that is the big debate. So a manner of death 173 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 2: is natural accidents, suicide, homicide, or undetermined, okay. And we've 174 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 2: seen quite a few flavors chosen for this case over time. 175 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 2: This case spans quite a you know, unfortunately she passed 176 00:11:56,360 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: many years ago, it's still you know, up for discussion. 177 00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 2: There's legal suits against it, and you know, luckily I'm 178 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:05,760 Speaker 2: just looking at it from the outside. I have no 179 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 2: involvement in the case. The family hasn't hired me, so 180 00:12:09,200 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: I just want to put that out there. And so 181 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 2: it's not natural. Natural is defined as purely a medical 182 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 2: condition without any external factor. So there's none of that, okay, 183 00:12:20,240 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 2: So we know it can't be natural. We're not you know, 184 00:12:24,559 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 2: it doesn't look like it's an unintentional outcome of an action. 185 00:12:28,720 --> 00:12:32,360 Speaker 2: That's an accident. So now we get to suicide, which 186 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:36,520 Speaker 2: is the intentional taking of one's life by one or 187 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: more actions, homicide which is death at the hands of 188 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 2: other of another or others, and then undetermined, which is 189 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 2: when you can't, despite your best efforts, decide between two 190 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 2: or potentially more of the manners that were just defined. Okay, 191 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 2: so initially it seems and correct me if I'm wrong, 192 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,439 Speaker 2: because I don't have all the facts. You know, it's 193 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: such a long, convoluted case. But my understanding is it 194 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: was initially ruled a suicide, then there was legal action 195 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 2: by the family that they were obviously upset with that ruling. 196 00:13:17,520 --> 00:13:20,160 Speaker 2: Then the case was re reviewed at some point went 197 00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: to undetermined manner, and this week, with more as a 198 00:13:25,920 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 2: consequence of further legal decisions, they re reviewed the case 199 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:34,280 Speaker 2: and issued it as the manner as suicide again, so 200 00:13:34,360 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: the undetermined was reversed to suicide. That is my sort 201 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 2: of understanding of how the case was handled. Now, as 202 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,560 Speaker 2: a medical examiner who's practicing, I do legal consultations, I 203 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:52,960 Speaker 2: do cases personally. You know, if someone comes to me 204 00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,080 Speaker 2: and say you have a case from ten years ago, 205 00:13:55,160 --> 00:13:57,240 Speaker 2: twenty years ago, well not twenty because I've only been 206 00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 2: practicing fifteen. But let's say what your prea your first case, 207 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 2: you know, one of your first cases. We have new 208 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 2: evidence on and you need to check it out. It 209 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:09,880 Speaker 2: would be in my mind malpractice not to right, because 210 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:12,520 Speaker 2: there could be new DNA, there could be a confession, 211 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:16,160 Speaker 2: there could be I don't know, like something found at 212 00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 2: someone's home. Like there's always things that pop up. And honestly, 213 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 2: I have a case, a cold case going to court 214 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: soon because there was a jail confession on the stabbing, 215 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 2: you know, so you know, I was like, when was 216 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: this case like, and they was a twenty ten I said, 217 00:14:29,880 --> 00:14:32,240 Speaker 2: that was one of my first cases when I was here. Yeah, 218 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 2: we got a jail confession, so you know, you never 219 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: know when things pop up. You know, the jail confession 220 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 2: doesn't change my ruling because I called it a homicide, 221 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:45,320 Speaker 2: but right, like something new you never know could change. 222 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 2: And so cases I think we all have, like reserve 223 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:54,680 Speaker 2: the right to revisit a case if necessary, Okay, So 224 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: whether that be in a week, in a month, ten years, 225 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 2: whatever it is, okay, So it's not improper to revisit 226 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 2: a case. I think their revisiting was more court mandated, 227 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 2: but I just want to put that out there. You know. 228 00:15:08,120 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 2: It's not common that we do, but it can be, 229 00:15:11,120 --> 00:15:13,000 Speaker 2: you know. And if you give me this new, aha, 230 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: piece of evidence and I change my mind where I 231 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 2: changed the declaration, you know, the cause and manner, Well, 232 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,800 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean I was wrong, right, It's just how 233 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 2: it's you know, what was my thought process then is 234 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 2: differently affected than now because of this new information. 235 00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: Sure, and you've said that multiple times. 236 00:15:32,880 --> 00:15:38,080 Speaker 2: Right, so you know, none of that is improper to me. 237 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:43,040 Speaker 2: What I wholeheartedly disagree with is the ruling that this 238 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 2: is not a homicide. And as the information has come forth, 239 00:15:47,800 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 2: you know, initially I was sort of familiar with that 240 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: made familiar with the case. I was sur tangentially involved 241 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,120 Speaker 2: with the Hulu special, but I didn't tape it and 242 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: so I didn't really look at the file that closely 243 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:05,400 Speaker 2: until I was asked to comment earlier this week when 244 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 2: that thirty two page or thirty three page report came out, 245 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,760 Speaker 2: and I really had a head to toe look at 246 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,160 Speaker 2: you know, what was the investigative information, and this is 247 00:16:14,200 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: what's common knowledge. This is what's been released. I don't 248 00:16:16,800 --> 00:16:22,239 Speaker 2: have special permission anyways, Like when I looked at the injuries. 249 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: I mean, part of it is we don't practice in 250 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 2: a black box. But when I'm reviewing a case, this 251 00:16:27,840 --> 00:16:30,280 Speaker 2: is how I handle any expert case. I'm always going 252 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,560 Speaker 2: to go to the autopsy first. Does that make sense? 253 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: The scene and the autopsies my area of expertise. That's 254 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: where I need to form my independent opinion, and then 255 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 2: sort of go back and read the police report or 256 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: whatever investigative information there is. And that's exactly how I 257 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 2: approached this report as well. I like flipped to the 258 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 2: autopsy studies and said, huh, that doesn't make sense. Let 259 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:57,720 Speaker 2: me keep reading. Now. I want to say that you know, 260 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 2: Ellen Greenberg had psychiatric history. I'm not ignoring that. You 261 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 2: know she was under stress, she was under the care 262 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:08,600 Speaker 2: of a psychiatrist, all of which which is appropriate, Okay. 263 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 2: And then her toxicology reflected that nothing was excessive even 264 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 2: though she had controlled substances like ambient and another and klonopin, 265 00:17:18,280 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 2: which is another sleeping medicine. She didn't take a whole bottle, right, 266 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:25,520 Speaker 2: which sometimes we see in suicides. Right, So that's one 267 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,479 Speaker 2: thing to consider there was no suicide note. But again, 268 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 2: in suicides, a minority of cases have notes. Okay, I 269 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 2: think it's only twenty or twenty five percent, So you 270 00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:40,440 Speaker 2: can't rely on that to rule every case of suicide, 271 00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 2: otherwise it'd be under called. 272 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: Okay, yep. 273 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 2: And then we get into the actual injuries and apartment. 274 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 2: You know, there's this history of the apartment being locked 275 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:57,960 Speaker 2: and then broken into or pushed open by the fiance. 276 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 2: You know, this is where I really rely on CSI 277 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:08,000 Speaker 2: and police investigation. I'm not a door jam a door expert, 278 00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 2: a lock expert. You know, I would need to get 279 00:18:11,920 --> 00:18:16,280 Speaker 2: that information from my colleagues like you. But what I 280 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: can say is I'm going to hone in on the injuries. Okay, 281 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 2: there are diagrams that have been shown to me and 282 00:18:24,840 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 2: my other presentations or they're and they're not generated by me. 283 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:32,040 Speaker 2: They were made by someone else. However, they're sort of 284 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:41,840 Speaker 2: what I would say, two key injuries that really concern me. Okay, 285 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 2: And so I want to bring up something. You know, 286 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,360 Speaker 2: it's maybe a nervous laugh, but what is a common 287 00:18:53,680 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 2: statement that we hear stabbed in the back right? And 288 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: why do we say that? Because usually it's someone else 289 00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: screwing you over for being colloquial. Right, That's not something 290 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:10,399 Speaker 2: that usually we see people do to themselves because you 291 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: can't reach it. Okay. So the fact that she has 292 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: multiple injuries to the back of her head neck are 293 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:24,280 Speaker 2: already atypical for suicide. Okay, And let me preface this 294 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 2: by saying I am very cynical in life. Probably my 295 00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:33,120 Speaker 2: work has made me that way. I approach every death 296 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 2: is like, uh, oh, what's this? Does that make sense? 297 00:19:36,800 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: Not like, oh, that's just a drug overdose or that's 298 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 2: just you know, someone committing suicide. No, do you understand? 299 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 2: That is never my approach. I'm always like, okay, so 300 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 2: that's the story provided to me. Does this make sense? 301 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:52,480 Speaker 2: Like my radar is always up? Okay, because I don't 302 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: want to miss something, whether it be at the crime 303 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: scene or at the autopsy table. So this is already 304 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,879 Speaker 2: a typical I'm not loving that this thin young woman 305 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 2: is stabbed multiple times and now in areas that aka 306 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: stabbed in the back, right, it's really the neck and 307 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 2: the skull. But these are very difficult areas to reach yourself. 308 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 2: So this is not sitting well with me. She has 309 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:27,439 Speaker 2: the final wound. We can never say which like the 310 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: order of the wounds because it's just so so many. 311 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: And when I look at wounds, all I can say 312 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: is whether they were like when she was alive or 313 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: when she was dead. Okay, so anti mortem or post 314 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 2: mortem respectively. And so what I'm looking for is bleeding. Okay, 315 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 2: So bleeding. And when I say alive, I don't necessarily 316 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: mean conscious. Okay, but her body is working, her heart 317 00:20:56,080 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 2: is pumping. It may not be the strongest, but it's 318 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 2: still pumping, and she has a blood pressure. Okay. Now 319 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: those two things are needed to bleed into a wound. 320 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 2: If you cut yourself while you're alive, you're gonna bleed, Okay. 321 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 2: By contrast, in at autopsy, if I cut into someone, 322 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 2: they don't get a bruise, they don't get bleeding. Yes, 323 00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: they do bleed. They leak blood from blood vessels that 324 00:21:21,320 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 2: are holding blood. Okay. But if I just take if 325 00:21:24,520 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 2: I give them something super official like a paper cut 326 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 2: or a little bit deeper, that's going to remain with 327 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:34,439 Speaker 2: no blood because their the heart's not beating and they 328 00:21:34,440 --> 00:21:35,399 Speaker 2: don't have a blood pressure. 329 00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:37,240 Speaker 1: Okay, absolutely, yep. 330 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 2: So that is a clear differentiation of what is happening 331 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: when as someone is getting injured and dying. Now, when 332 00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,440 Speaker 2: we read her report or this new report, that's quite voluminous. 333 00:21:51,359 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 2: I really want to focus on two wounds. Or let 334 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 2: me back up. The knife is found left in her 335 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: in the left side of the chest, so we know 336 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:05,280 Speaker 2: by definition that's the last wound the weapon is left there. Okay, 337 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 2: So unless the weapon is left in I can only 338 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: tell you if this wound came before or after her 339 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: physiologic death. Okay, but now I know that with the 340 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 2: knife sticking in there, Okay, that was the last impact, 341 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 2: the last insertion of the weapon. However, there were two wounds, 342 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 2: one to the base of her skull and one to 343 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 2: the neck that were hot, like very concerning to me. 344 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 2: And as I read this, because you know, when I 345 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:40,560 Speaker 2: was trying to prepare for potentially going on the Hulu show, 346 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: I was listening to podcasts like I had no materials 347 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 2: in front of me. Does does that make sense? So 348 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: I was just listening to more lay capture. I really 349 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 2: wanted the meat and potatoes which I got in these reports. 350 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: Now that is critical. So there's these two wounds. He 351 00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 2: has multiple wounds, multiple sharp force injuries, and multiple bruises. Okay, 352 00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,920 Speaker 2: the sharp force injuries are these two stab wounds, which 353 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 2: indeed they are stab wounds to the back of her 354 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: neck and the base of her brain to me, caused critical, 355 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 2: devastating neurologic injury that would mean she could not stab herself. Y'all. 356 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:29,640 Speaker 1: We're gonna stop right there with part one. I think 357 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:34,200 Speaker 1: that's pretty powerful. We're gonna come back with part two 358 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,159 Speaker 1: and doctor Pria is gonna explain more about how Ellen 359 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:45,200 Speaker 1: could not have stabbed herself past just one of those wounds, 360 00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: much less two that would have rendered her incapable of 361 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: stabbing herself more