WEBVTT - Tiny Betrayals 0:00:01.840 --> 0:00:05.360 Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.000 New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:13.520 activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator, 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:17.360 and I doctor Aditi naru Kar, a physician and medical 0:00:17.400 --> 0:00:21.240 correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.520 mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.760 layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 0:00:27.800 --> 0:00:31.120 men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 0:00:31.160 --> 0:00:34.559 time as if it's infinite like sand. And whether you 0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:37.360 are partnered with or without children, or in a career 0:00:37.400 --> 0:00:40.080 where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:44.159 you for all family structures. We're here to take a 0:00:44.240 --> 0:00:49.720 time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 0:00:49.920 --> 0:00:59.240 our time. We've been talking about this for a while, 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:04.840 me together to not just be our professional personas, but 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.319 really talking about why it's so hard for women to 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.000 treat their time as if it's finite. And so today 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:13.360 we're gonna be talking about all of that. We're gonna 0:01:13.400 --> 0:01:15.480 be talking about burnout, We're gonna be talking about how 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:19.319 it starts with really, really small things. Like blueberries that 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:22.840 are much bigger things. As a mediator, one of the 0:01:22.840 --> 0:01:26.160 first things we're taught add is that the presenting problem 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:29.080 is never the real problem. So today we're gonna be 0:01:29.160 --> 0:01:34.320 unpacking the presenting problem, which is tiny betrayals. And so 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.479 I wanted to start with us telling our stories about 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.760 where we are, what struggles have you had to put 0:01:41.800 --> 0:01:46.240 fairness into place. So even my tiny betrayal came one 0:01:46.360 --> 0:01:50.120 month into my motherhood journey. So I'm a physician and 0:01:50.160 --> 0:01:52.640 I married a man who also had a career. He 0:01:52.680 --> 0:01:56.880 works in finance. When we were dating and through the courtship, 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:00.640 we just assumed it was never just discussed, but we 0:02:00.760 --> 0:02:03.440 assumed that it would be equal because he is a 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:08.040 progressive man and in many ways a feminist, and so 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.720 am I. Then we got married and had our daughter, 0:02:12.600 --> 0:02:16.600 and wow, I couldn't believe it. So I had three 0:02:16.600 --> 0:02:21.440 months of eternity leave. He had two weeks, and that 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:25.840 first month, when I was breastfeeding and just so deep 0:02:25.880 --> 0:02:28.920 in it, he had to travel. He was in London 0:02:28.960 --> 0:02:31.040 for an annual meeting. He had met up with all 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:34.440 of his business school classmates one evening after the meeting, 0:02:34.800 --> 0:02:38.480 and they were talking about being dad's and parents and 0:02:38.520 --> 0:02:41.080 how great it was, and he was sending me pictures 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.200 of being in this nightclub. It was just like really 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:45.440 cool place, and he was like, you'd love it. Meanwhile, 0:02:45.480 --> 0:02:48.320 I'm at home. Wait wait, wait, at nightclub, at nightclub 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:51.320 when you were postpartum. I would let me, I would die. 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:53.840 He's amazing. But it was a night that they all 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.280 met up, and I remember thinking, God, that would be 0:02:56.320 --> 0:02:59.919 a fantastic split frame movie where there's this dad talking 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.120 on how great it is he's had an infant for 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.919 a month, is traveling and here I am with a 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:09.760 burp cloth and breast milk all over my shirt and 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:15.280 trying to just get through another day. So that for 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:19.560 me was the huge wake up call I had never 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:22.880 even imagined. I mean, the reason your work resonated so 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:26.000 deeply with me is because these are things that we 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.560 never talk about. We marry men who are feminists, who 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:32.840 are progressive, who have all of the shared values that 0:03:32.880 --> 0:03:36.600 we do. But somehow somewhere in there, once you have children, 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:41.880 there is such a split and it's almost the societal pressures. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.720 But it was just shocking to me. It continues to 0:03:44.760 --> 0:03:47.720 shock me when you go into a marriage have certain 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.240 ideas of how it will be, but then the realities 0:03:50.280 --> 0:03:54.080 are so so different, often with forces that are not 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:58.160 necessarily in your control. Absolutely, you made me think of 0:03:58.640 --> 0:04:02.559 my good friend who's a law firm partner, very successful 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.840 like you as a physician, when she had her first 0:04:04.920 --> 0:04:07.720 child and a partner meeting her partners said you know, 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:11.280 how are you going to be a good mom and 0:04:11.360 --> 0:04:14.640 still be a law firm partner? And she looked at 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:16.080 them and said, well, I don't want to be a 0:04:16.080 --> 0:04:18.280 good mom. I just want to be a great dad. 0:04:18.960 --> 0:04:22.279 I love it, And it was so good because that's 0:04:22.279 --> 0:04:25.880 what they are. And so you can still be dancing 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:27.880 on tables with old friends when your baby is one 0:04:27.880 --> 0:04:29.880 month old and still be considered a great dad. But 0:04:30.040 --> 0:04:34.520 we are shamed into oblivion until the day we die. 0:04:34.680 --> 0:04:37.280 And so I think what we're gonna be unpacking is 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:40.960 a lot of the unsaid things that I wish I knew. 0:04:41.680 --> 0:04:43.120 And I will say that I feel like I want 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.560 to dedicate this episode to the women that are coming 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.599 up behind us. This is, of course a place for 0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.200 you to come stay and hang out with us if 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.240 you are partnered with children, but this is also a 0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:01.600 place if you are in any career where you want 0:05:01.600 --> 0:05:04.880 to eventually have some boundaries one day, regardless of your 0:05:05.040 --> 0:05:12.880 family structure. So your nightclub is my Blueberries. I want 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:16.200 to tell you a story about my tiny betrayal moment 0:05:17.080 --> 0:05:21.640 that crystallized everything for me. It was right after my 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:25.120 second son, Ben was born ten years ago. Today it's 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:30.279 my Blueberries breakdown anniversary, a d D thank you, thank you, 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.360 where my husband sent me the text that started me 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:37.720 on my fair play journey, and that text said I'm 0:05:37.760 --> 0:05:42.840 surprised you didn't get Blueberries. That text I got from 0:05:42.920 --> 0:05:47.000 Seth changed the trajectory of my life. So I was 0:05:47.160 --> 0:05:50.880 postpartum like you were talking about, definitely had burke cloths 0:05:50.920 --> 0:05:53.520 all around. I had a breast pump and a diaper 0:05:53.520 --> 0:05:57.080 bag in the passenger seat in my car. Seth had 0:05:57.120 --> 0:05:59.640 sent me the I'm surprised you didn't get Blueberries texts 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.120 out a minute before that as I was getting into 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.239 my car, So I was now automatically texting and driving 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.960 through seething resentment. So the breast pump and diaper bagger there. 0:06:10.080 --> 0:06:12.880 I have gifts for a newborn baby to return in 0:06:12.920 --> 0:06:16.160 the backseat in my car. I have a client contract 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.520 in my lap. I'm a lawyer. I had opted out 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:23.200 of the traditional workforce. I started my own firm because 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.760 I thought flexibility came with entrepreneurship. That's also a fallacy 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:30.080 will unpack. But I remember I had a pen in 0:06:30.120 --> 0:06:32.360 between my legs that day, d D and I remember 0:06:32.760 --> 0:06:36.320 I was racing to pick up Zach, my older son, 0:06:36.400 --> 0:06:40.440 he was three at the time from his toddler transition program. 0:06:40.480 --> 0:06:43.839 But you know, in America, costs our entire salaries. And 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:46.040 I still remember that every time I would hit the 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.240 brakes as I was texting and driving, as I was 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.599 starting at the breast pump and diaper bag and all 0:06:51.680 --> 0:06:54.159 the ship in the back of the car, that this 0:06:54.320 --> 0:07:00.520 pen would stab me in my vagina. But I remember 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.080 the thoughts in my head that day where I cannot 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:06.479 believe my marriage is ending over being the fulfiller of 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:09.960 my husband's smoothie needs. Like if my marriage is going 0:07:10.000 --> 0:07:11.560 to end, it was going to be like a dramatic 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:14.920 fight in the Caribbean, or I don't know, an affair 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:19.320 with an NFL player. But something so cliche as offseason 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.080 blueberries led me to this place of a reckoning for 0:07:23.200 --> 0:07:27.360 myself that I did not have the career marriage combo 0:07:27.760 --> 0:07:30.520 I thought I was going to have, and more importantly, 0:07:30.560 --> 0:07:33.680 I had become the defaults or as I call, as 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.679 you know in fair play, the she fault for literally 0:07:36.680 --> 0:07:41.040 every single household and domestic task for my family. And 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:43.080 that was a surprise. I did not think I was 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:45.679 going to be there, and I wonder what was happening 0:07:45.680 --> 0:07:47.680 to me? Then for me to sob on the side 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:52.520 of the road over this text, Gosh, what a poignant story. 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.800 And I'm sure nearly every woman who is postpartum and 0:07:56.040 --> 0:07:59.640 partners can relate. You know, biologically, it was postpartum, so 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:02.280 there was, of course the hormonal shift happening, but also 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.600 you were highly stressed. You had a newborn, you were 0:08:05.680 --> 0:08:08.440 running to go get another child, and then you have 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:12.400 these demands. He did it in a very innocuous way. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:14.480 It was a very simple request, but it was just 0:08:14.560 --> 0:08:17.200 the straw that broke the camel's back. We are all 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:21.440 wired for survival and self preservation. Under periods of stress, 0:08:22.240 --> 0:08:24.320 we are on high alert and there's a sense of 0:08:24.400 --> 0:08:30.040 hyper vigilance. So even something small like blueberries can feel 0:08:30.120 --> 0:08:33.959 very triggering. It's a normal reaction to an abnormal situation 0:08:35.200 --> 0:08:38.960 and gosh, I can tell you so many instances where 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:41.160 that I have felt the same. You know, knowing the 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:45.520 science behind stress doesn't always change your relationship to stress 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:49.360 during those moments. Well, that's such an important piece versus 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.839 awareness knowing that relationship to stress. And then there are 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.120 other things we have to do. We can't just acknowledge 0:08:55.160 --> 0:08:58.480 that we're in stressable situations. And I think over the season, 0:08:58.600 --> 0:09:01.480 we're going to give people a lot of practical tips 0:09:01.520 --> 0:09:05.640 and solutions to take agency in your own life. And 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:07.920 so I think the other thing I wanted to ask 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:13.560 you is what happens when the presenting problem is not 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:16.559 the real problem. So I want to say, as a mediator, 0:09:16.640 --> 0:09:20.040 to get to the real problem, It's something that I've 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:25.000 been taught. I've taken all continuing legal education and mediation 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.840 and difficult conversations and still a d D. The presenting 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:32.800 problem wasn't like, oh wow, I should speak to Seth 0:09:32.800 --> 0:09:35.240 about the fact that the gender division of labor is 0:09:35.280 --> 0:09:37.360 showing up in our marriage. It wasn't anything like that. 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:41.760 It was just sobbing to myself on the side of 0:09:41.800 --> 0:09:46.720 the road, blaming myself that I had done something wrong. 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.520 I didn't connect it to any of these broader issues, 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:51.800 and I have the privilege being trained to use my 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:56.000 voice for difficult conversations. So what tools do we have 0:09:56.920 --> 0:09:59.960 to fight against this? Even I'm saying like someone who 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.080 should have had all the tools didn't even have one 0:10:04.160 --> 0:10:08.400 in my toolbag. Then to move forward, my only option 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:10.520 I thought at that time was to leave my marriage. 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:15.360 It's so interesting because ultimately, regardless of our education or experience, 0:10:15.480 --> 0:10:19.880 biology is biology. So when we're not very stressed, we 0:10:19.960 --> 0:10:24.520 are in resilient mode, governed by the prefrontal cortex, and 0:10:24.600 --> 0:10:30.920 that has been highly highly developed with your education, organization, planning, memory, 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:35.760 things we call executive functions. But under periods of stress, 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:39.000 our brains are no longer governed by the prefrontal cortex. 0:10:39.080 --> 0:10:41.800 They're governed by the amygdala, or the limbig part of 0:10:41.840 --> 0:10:45.319 our brain. The amygdala is our powerhouse and it's our 0:10:45.400 --> 0:10:49.200 emotional center, and during periods of stress, we are governed 0:10:49.200 --> 0:10:52.240 by the amygdala we often called the amigzilla and the 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:55.719 underlying structures around it the lizard brain. It is our 0:10:55.840 --> 0:11:01.160 primordial reptilian brain that just hasn't changed. So we are 0:11:01.200 --> 0:11:04.840 no longer cave people running away from a tiger in 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:08.440 the forest, right, we still have that stress response. They 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.880 are no more tigers, we aren't necessarily living in forests, 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:15.719 but we have lots of tigers, metaphorical tigers all around us. 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.320 When you were driving that day, the blueberry was the tiger. 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.480 Your stress response was on overdrive and it was the 0:11:23.559 --> 0:11:28.040 amygdala that was taking over. So even as a Harvard 0:11:28.240 --> 0:11:32.000 trained mediator, with all of this knowledge and background and 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:37.280 incredible ability under periods of duress and stress, we go 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:40.640 right back there to that amygdala. There's many things we 0:11:40.679 --> 0:11:43.760 can do to help modulate that stress response over time, 0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:47.599 which we'll talk about. But it's not you. It's your biology. 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.480 It's not any of us mythology. And when we learned 0:11:50.520 --> 0:11:53.920 to work with our biology rather than compete against it, 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:57.000 that's when real change can happen. Well, I love that 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:02.719 so much because one of the early mediation phrases I 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:07.400 learned was you don't want to take actions or mediate 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:13.839 through a family when emotions are high and cognition is low. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:17.480 And so I think the beauty of today is Our 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.440 guest is Matthew Frey, and he had a viral article 0:12:20.520 --> 0:12:23.080 that was called My wife left Me because I left 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:26.320 dishes by the side of the sink, and again, I 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.480 think that the stress response of seeing that dish there 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:32.840 for the hundredth time. These small things and how we 0:12:32.880 --> 0:12:35.600 react to them are really what we're talking about today. 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:37.800 So we're gonna be talking to Matthew after the break 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:40.240 about all of these things, and I cannot wait for 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:52.959 you to hear what he has to share. We're so 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:57.160 excited to welcome Matthew Frey. Matthew currently works as a 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:00.439 relationship coach as well as writes and speaks about marriage 0:13:00.480 --> 0:13:04.320 and divorce. He followed this path after his wife left him, 0:13:04.360 --> 0:13:07.920 as he said, because he left dishes by the sink. 0:13:08.640 --> 0:13:12.320 His experience forced him to examine what went wrong and 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:18.080 how he inadvertently sabotaged his marriage. He recently finished writing 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.280 his first book that comes out in March, titled This 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:24.000 Is How Your Marriage Ends and Adity. I love that title. 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:28.120 He recounts the story and all that he's learned so 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:35.240 that other people don't make the same mistakes. Hi, Matthew, 0:13:35.840 --> 0:13:38.200 thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you 0:13:38.240 --> 0:13:40.520 so much for having me. Adda has some great questions 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:42.440 for you, but I did want to start off, if 0:13:42.480 --> 0:13:46.520 you'll let me, this great couple of sentences from the 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:50.160 beginning part of your book, which touched me so much. 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:54.080 You right, even though I barely touched my wife in 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:57.400 the previous two years, the thought of someone else doing 0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:01.800 so wrecked me. My young son, not yet in kindergarten, 0:14:02.320 --> 0:14:05.199 would now be raised by a dick bag, or this 0:14:05.280 --> 0:14:07.959 dick bag, the guy she was dating. I thought I 0:14:08.000 --> 0:14:10.880 would no longer have any agency over who gets to 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.160 look after my son. I imagined a future where he 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.960 would run off the field after little league games and 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:20.160 jump into the arms of his mom, an evil stepdad 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:23.560 who would look to everyone else like a beautiful little family, 0:14:25.040 --> 0:14:27.760 and I'd be some distance away, forcing a polite smile 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:34.479 as if everything were okay, but secretly wishing I were dead. Wow, 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:40.480 So that I don't think and encapsulate how much we 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:44.000 make short term decisions that end up having long term consequences, 0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:46.560 And so I would love if you could just start 0:14:46.560 --> 0:14:50.240 out telling us, Jesus, how did you get there? So 0:14:50.760 --> 0:14:53.960 that paragraph largely summed it up. I had to figure 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:56.360 out the story of my marriage, and I went to 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:58.120 work on it, and you put it together one bit 0:14:58.160 --> 0:15:00.320 at a time, and it took many years, and I'm 0:15:00.360 --> 0:15:02.680 still not there. But we're approaching the nine year mark 0:15:03.160 --> 0:15:05.680 of my marriage ending next April, and um, I still 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:07.160 don't know all of it, but I think I have 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.760 a much closer understanding today. And then as I discovered 0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.160 some of these answers, I realized, Wow, a lot of 0:15:13.160 --> 0:15:15.640 people don't know this. A lot of just like guys 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:18.480 like me out in the world, don't know this. And 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:22.680 I thought I discovered a subtle and nuanced explanation for 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.360 how it happens, which to me, is the most logical 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:30.520 explanation for how half of all marriages can fail. As 0:15:30.560 --> 0:15:33.240 I read your work, I want to quote you here. 0:15:33.280 --> 0:15:36.480 You say, I don't think the average guy wearing his 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.360 college football sweatshirt and drinking canned bud light on a 0:15:40.400 --> 0:15:44.160 Saturday afternoon while his kids play in the backyard and 0:15:44.200 --> 0:15:47.040 his wife does all of the work required to keep 0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.400 a household afloat is going to spend much time reading 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.920 the Five Love Languages. Can you talk a little bit 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:58.360 more about why you're the perfect messenger for this story 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:02.400 and how can we reach both men, women and other 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.680 family structures to do this kind of reflection and work, 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:07.720 And why do you think this kind of work is 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:10.920 so important to do? During a marriage rather than at 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.920 the end of a marriage. I think I'm an adequate one. 0:16:14.280 --> 0:16:17.600 I sort of average out to be like so many 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:20.320 of the guys that are in situations as I was, 0:16:20.960 --> 0:16:26.920 And when I talked to them, I don't trigger that defensive, 0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:30.320 resentful feeling that a lot of men report having in 0:16:30.360 --> 0:16:33.480 their relationships, this notion that their wife's always complaining about him, 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:36.240 or like moving the goalposts further or finding some new 0:16:36.280 --> 0:16:39.280 way to point out how he's failing her or the family. 0:16:39.840 --> 0:16:43.440 And there's a lot of really really deep, painful feelings 0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:45.520 that a lot of men possess about that. And I 0:16:45.560 --> 0:16:50.120 have those conversations a lot, But when I talked to them, 0:16:50.240 --> 0:16:53.120 they just don't have that experience because I was in 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.280 that same situation with them. You know, you talk a 0:16:56.280 --> 0:16:59.920 lot about judgment. You say that men invest their enter 0:17:00.120 --> 0:17:03.680 g in one of three ways. They dispute the facts 0:17:03.720 --> 0:17:07.160 of the story their partner just told, or they agree 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:10.720 with the facts but believe their partner is overreacting, or 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:14.479 defend their actions by explaining why they did it. In 0:17:14.520 --> 0:17:20.040 all three cases, the partners feelings are invalidated. Talk to 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.720 us a little bit about that. You know, we've all 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.399 felt it. I mean, as a married woman, I have 0:17:25.480 --> 0:17:29.840 felt it. Eve writes a lot about this, but from 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.600 your perspective, can you talk to us a little bit 0:17:32.600 --> 0:17:38.959 about judgment and the invalidation of feelings? I can try so, right, 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:42.240 It was early during the pandemic, and it was when 0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:45.400 like a lot of restaurants had shut down. It was March, 0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:49.320 and so a lot of businesses were closed, including restaurants. 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:51.360 And so I had a client who was a real 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:54.639 estate guy, and he had a work emergency and he 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.280 hadn't been able to eat that day, and so he 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.280 went and got a fish sandwich for lunch. But because 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:02.399 none of the vegan restaurant were Hope and him and 0:18:02.440 --> 0:18:06.359 his wife were vegans, and his wife sent him a 0:18:06.440 --> 0:18:09.400 text while he was on his afternoon call with me, 0:18:10.400 --> 0:18:14.280 asking him what he'd had for lunch, just checking in, 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.000 just being his wife, and he, you know, immediately got 0:18:17.000 --> 0:18:19.119 really defensive and he didn't answer her. And he's on 0:18:19.160 --> 0:18:20.359 the phone with me and he's like, Matt, what do 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:21.840 we do? He's like, if I told me the truth, 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.160 she's gonna get pissed. He's like, because I ate fish. 0:18:24.160 --> 0:18:25.720 I'm like, why is that a problem? Because we're vegan. 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:27.440 I'm like, where are you? Vegan? Goes, well, we have 0:18:27.560 --> 0:18:29.159 this a goog agreement to be vegan. It's like a 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:33.359 health decision that we made. And he was like spazzing 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:35.800 out because his wife was going to get mad at 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.560 him for eating a fish sandwich, which he perceived to 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.199 not be a big deal. So his thought process was, 0:18:40.440 --> 0:18:42.800 you're going to yell at me for eating a fish sandwich. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:47.119 You know that that's crap. That's a gross misunderstanding of 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.000 the situation A and B. It's like an unfair emotional 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.359 reaction to the crime committed, which so many men feel 0:18:54.480 --> 0:18:57.439 this notion of like an overreaction, and then they, you know, 0:18:57.520 --> 0:19:00.240 get defensive. It's like I had a work emergency. All 0:19:00.280 --> 0:19:03.800 the restaurants were closed because of COVID, and he was 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.480 talking about how he's going to go home and feel 0:19:06.520 --> 0:19:09.040 his wife's wrath because he ate a fish sandwich. And 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.000 that's when I had to have a conversation with them 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:15.480 about this notion of perspective. And the thing that I 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.560 said to him is, your wife is not mad at 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.199 you because you ate fish. It's the same thing I 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.240 might have said about my wife leaving me because I 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:27.440 left the dish by the saying it's it's nonsense. His 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:29.880 wife was upset with them because he broke a promise 0:19:30.240 --> 0:19:33.520 to be vegan with that was a promise hed and 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.080 then he didn't even have the decency to like check 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.880 in with her and be like, hey, here's the situation 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:42.000 if I do this, is this like dishonoring the code 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:43.400 we have. You hear stories like this all the time, 0:19:43.520 --> 0:19:45.639 People who cheat on their partners by like watching like 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:47.960 two episodes ahead on the Netflix show they're watching together. 0:19:48.520 --> 0:19:52.160 Went through these like tiny betrayals that happened all the time, 0:19:52.160 --> 0:19:55.760 And it's so easy for us to write off having 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:59.760 an emotional reaction about it. But betrayal can be betrayal, 0:20:00.320 --> 0:20:02.679 even when it's about Netflix shows and even when it's 0:20:02.680 --> 0:20:05.639 about fish sandwiches. And I think it's a really important 0:20:05.680 --> 0:20:08.720 idea that people can't trust you when you don't keep 0:20:08.720 --> 0:20:10.879 your promises to them, and it's not really relevant what 0:20:10.920 --> 0:20:14.120 the promises. And I think that's a reasonable question for 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.240 for someone to ask in a marriage, and it's about 0:20:17.440 --> 0:20:21.280 this is important to that person. I love them, Therefore 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.679 I'm going to treat it with importance. And it's not 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:26.480 a skill. I possessed in my marriage, and I fundamentally 0:20:26.520 --> 0:20:29.080 didn't know how to calculate for what that betrayal would 0:20:29.119 --> 0:20:32.000 mean to my marriage over time, done over the course 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.879 of a twelve year relationship, These tiny trust betrayals they 0:20:35.560 --> 0:20:38.199 paper cut you to death, you know. But there's that 0:20:38.280 --> 0:20:41.480 moment right before that betrayal, right, Like with this fish 0:20:41.480 --> 0:20:44.960 sandwich story, the guy could have sent his wife a 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:49.560 text saying, Hey, there are no restaurants open, I'm gonna 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.320 bind I'm going to eat this fish sandwich. But he didn't, 0:20:53.920 --> 0:20:55.760 and then he kind of got himself into a hole. 0:20:56.359 --> 0:20:59.840 So why do so many people feel like they can't share? 0:21:00.440 --> 0:21:03.240 Why is it not easy for that particular person to 0:21:03.320 --> 0:21:05.119 just say, hey, heads up, I want to let you 0:21:05.160 --> 0:21:08.920 know what I'm thinking. I mean, why does everyone do this? 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.119 That's a great question. The guys that I've talked to, 0:21:12.200 --> 0:21:15.720 there's like a fear of not not literally, they resent 0:21:15.880 --> 0:21:18.640 that they have to be afraid of it, right. They 0:21:18.720 --> 0:21:22.920 believe they won't be allowed and they don't ask permission 0:21:22.920 --> 0:21:24.760 to do an adult thing that they should be allowed 0:21:24.840 --> 0:21:27.520 to do, and so they just do in like this 0:21:27.640 --> 0:21:30.840 like sneaky way, calculating that the thing isn't harmful. I 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.120 don't know where that comes from. I'm assuming the condition 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:36.359 exists because of a fundamental lack of trust and respect 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:38.320 in the relationship, which is sort of the thing I'm 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:41.959 advocating in the first place, because this is exactly the 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:46.080 sort of decision making that produces the lack of trust 0:21:46.200 --> 0:21:48.720 and intimacy in a relationship where two people are going 0:21:48.760 --> 0:21:50.720 to respect one another and not feel any sort of 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.920 anxiety about Hey, if I were to do this, how 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:56.320 would it make you feel? Because I want to factor 0:21:56.400 --> 0:22:00.600 that into my decision making process, and that really feel like, 0:22:00.600 --> 0:22:03.600 foundationally needs to be a condition in a relationship designed 0:22:03.640 --> 0:22:06.199 to go to the distance. But many relationships aren't. They 0:22:06.200 --> 0:22:09.040 have these tiny secrets that the people that have them 0:22:09.119 --> 0:22:13.439 calculate it's not a relationship breaking secret, and the idea 0:22:13.520 --> 0:22:16.040 eludes them that having the secret in the first place 0:22:16.359 --> 0:22:19.359 is what breaks the relationships slowly over time. What I 0:22:19.400 --> 0:22:22.600 love about that is it's like the what's the big deal? Right? 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.879 And and it's so invalidating to hear that. One of 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:28.680 the ways it came out when I spoke to men 0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:32.240 who are married to women. So many men said to me, well, 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:34.320 I'm not sure I can get on board with your 0:22:34.440 --> 0:22:37.720 fair play system and the hundred cards because my wife 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:42.520 does so many unnecessary things and it was so invalidating 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:44.679 to hear that, and I would get triggered on behalf 0:22:44.760 --> 0:22:48.639 of these women be like, what's unecessary? Okay, let's meeting 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.720 your children? Is that unnecessary? I think fun and playing 0:22:51.800 --> 0:22:54.359 is that unnecessary? What about hard questions? And I would 0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:57.760 literally just start attacking. And I apologize to the early 0:22:57.760 --> 0:23:00.399 interviews I had because if you're out there listening, I 0:23:00.480 --> 0:23:04.200