1 00:00:01,840 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Time Out. I'm Eve Rodsky, author of the 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,000 Speaker 1: New York Times bestseller fair Play and Find Your Unicorn Space, 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:13,520 Speaker 1: activists on the gender division of labor, attorney and family mediator, 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: and I doctor Aditi naru Kar, a physician and medical 5 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 1: correspondent with an expertise in the science of stress, resilience, 6 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: mental health, and burnout. We're here to peel back to 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: layers around why it's so easy for society to guard 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: men's time as if it's diamonds and to treat women's 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,559 Speaker 1: time as if it's infinite like sand. And whether you 10 00:00:34,560 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: are partnered with or without children, or in a career 11 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,080 Speaker 1: where you want more boundaries, this is the place for 12 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: you for all family structures. We're here to take a 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: time out to learn, get inspired, and most importantly, reclaim 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: our time. We've been talking about this for a while, 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 1: me together to not just be our professional personas, but 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: really talking about why it's so hard for women to 17 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: treat their time as if it's finite. And so today 18 00:01:11,200 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about all of that. We're gonna 19 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:15,480 Speaker 1: be talking about burnout, We're gonna be talking about how 20 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:19,319 Speaker 1: it starts with really, really small things. Like blueberries that 21 00:01:19,360 --> 00:01:22,840 Speaker 1: are much bigger things. As a mediator, one of the 22 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: first things we're taught add is that the presenting problem 23 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: is never the real problem. So today we're gonna be 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:34,320 Speaker 1: unpacking the presenting problem, which is tiny betrayals. And so 25 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: I wanted to start with us telling our stories about 26 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: where we are, what struggles have you had to put 27 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 1: fairness into place. So even my tiny betrayal came one 28 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: month into my motherhood journey. So I'm a physician and 29 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: I married a man who also had a career. He 30 00:01:52,680 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 1: works in finance. When we were dating and through the courtship, 31 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: we just assumed it was never just discussed, but we 32 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: assumed that it would be equal because he is a 33 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: progressive man and in many ways a feminist, and so 34 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: am I. Then we got married and had our daughter, 35 00:02:12,600 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: and wow, I couldn't believe it. So I had three 36 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: months of eternity leave. He had two weeks, and that 37 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:25,840 Speaker 1: first month, when I was breastfeeding and just so deep 38 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:28,920 Speaker 1: in it, he had to travel. He was in London 39 00:02:28,960 --> 00:02:31,040 Speaker 1: for an annual meeting. He had met up with all 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: of his business school classmates one evening after the meeting, 41 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: and they were talking about being dad's and parents and 42 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 1: how great it was, and he was sending me pictures 43 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: of being in this nightclub. It was just like really 44 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:45,440 Speaker 1: cool place, and he was like, you'd love it. Meanwhile, 45 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm at home. Wait wait, wait, at nightclub, at nightclub 46 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 1: when you were postpartum. I would let me, I would die. 47 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,840 Speaker 1: He's amazing. But it was a night that they all 48 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: met up, and I remember thinking, God, that would be 49 00:02:56,320 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 1: a fantastic split frame movie where there's this dad talking 50 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: on how great it is he's had an infant for 51 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: a month, is traveling and here I am with a 52 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 1: burp cloth and breast milk all over my shirt and 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: trying to just get through another day. So that for 54 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: me was the huge wake up call I had never 55 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: even imagined. I mean, the reason your work resonated so 56 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: deeply with me is because these are things that we 57 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,560 Speaker 1: never talk about. We marry men who are feminists, who 58 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 1: are progressive, who have all of the shared values that 59 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 1: we do. But somehow somewhere in there, once you have children, 60 00:03:37,000 --> 00:03:41,880 Speaker 1: there is such a split and it's almost the societal pressures. 61 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: But it was just shocking to me. It continues to 62 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: shock me when you go into a marriage have certain 63 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: ideas of how it will be, but then the realities 64 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: are so so different, often with forces that are not 65 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,160 Speaker 1: necessarily in your control. Absolutely, you made me think of 66 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,559 Speaker 1: my good friend who's a law firm partner, very successful 67 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: like you as a physician, when she had her first 68 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: child and a partner meeting her partners said you know, 69 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,280 Speaker 1: how are you going to be a good mom and 70 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: still be a law firm partner? And she looked at 71 00:04:14,680 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 1: them and said, well, I don't want to be a 72 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:18,280 Speaker 1: good mom. I just want to be a great dad. 73 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: I love it, And it was so good because that's 74 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: what they are. And so you can still be dancing 75 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: on tables with old friends when your baby is one 76 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: month old and still be considered a great dad. But 77 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,520 Speaker 1: we are shamed into oblivion until the day we die. 78 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:37,280 Speaker 1: And so I think what we're gonna be unpacking is 79 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot of the unsaid things that I wish I knew. 80 00:04:41,680 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 1: And I will say that I feel like I want 81 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 1: to dedicate this episode to the women that are coming 82 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: up behind us. This is, of course a place for 83 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: you to come stay and hang out with us if 84 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: you are partnered with children, but this is also a 85 00:04:57,279 --> 00:05:01,600 Speaker 1: place if you are in any career where you want 86 00:05:01,600 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: to eventually have some boundaries one day, regardless of your 87 00:05:05,040 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: family structure. So your nightclub is my Blueberries. I want 88 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: to tell you a story about my tiny betrayal moment 89 00:05:17,080 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: that crystallized everything for me. It was right after my 90 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 1: second son, Ben was born ten years ago. Today it's 91 00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:30,279 Speaker 1: my Blueberries breakdown anniversary, a d D thank you, thank you, 92 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 1: where my husband sent me the text that started me 93 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:37,720 Speaker 1: on my fair play journey, and that text said I'm 94 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:42,840 Speaker 1: surprised you didn't get Blueberries. That text I got from 95 00:05:42,920 --> 00:05:47,000 Speaker 1: Seth changed the trajectory of my life. So I was 96 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: postpartum like you were talking about, definitely had burke cloths 97 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: all around. I had a breast pump and a diaper 98 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 1: bag in the passenger seat in my car. Seth had 99 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 1: sent me the I'm surprised you didn't get Blueberries texts 100 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 1: out a minute before that as I was getting into 101 00:06:02,120 --> 00:06:05,239 Speaker 1: my car, So I was now automatically texting and driving 102 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: through seething resentment. So the breast pump and diaper bagger there. 103 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: I have gifts for a newborn baby to return in 104 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 1: the backseat in my car. I have a client contract 105 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,520 Speaker 1: in my lap. I'm a lawyer. I had opted out 106 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:23,200 Speaker 1: of the traditional workforce. I started my own firm because 107 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 1: I thought flexibility came with entrepreneurship. That's also a fallacy 108 00:06:27,760 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: will unpack. But I remember I had a pen in 109 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:32,360 Speaker 1: between my legs that day, d D and I remember 110 00:06:32,760 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: I was racing to pick up Zach, my older son, 111 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: he was three at the time from his toddler transition program. 112 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:43,839 Speaker 1: But you know, in America, costs our entire salaries. And 113 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: I still remember that every time I would hit the 114 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: brakes as I was texting and driving, as I was 115 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: starting at the breast pump and diaper bag and all 116 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:54,159 Speaker 1: the ship in the back of the car, that this 117 00:06:54,320 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 1: pen would stab me in my vagina. But I remember 118 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: the thoughts in my head that day where I cannot 119 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:06,479 Speaker 1: believe my marriage is ending over being the fulfiller of 120 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:09,960 Speaker 1: my husband's smoothie needs. Like if my marriage is going 121 00:07:10,000 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 1: to end, it was going to be like a dramatic 122 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 1: fight in the Caribbean, or I don't know, an affair 123 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: with an NFL player. But something so cliche as offseason 124 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: blueberries led me to this place of a reckoning for 125 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,360 Speaker 1: myself that I did not have the career marriage combo 126 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: I thought I was going to have, and more importantly, 127 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:33,680 Speaker 1: I had become the defaults or as I call, as 128 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 1: you know in fair play, the she fault for literally 129 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: every single household and domestic task for my family. And 130 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: that was a surprise. I did not think I was 131 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 1: going to be there, and I wonder what was happening 132 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:47,680 Speaker 1: to me? Then for me to sob on the side 133 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 1: of the road over this text, Gosh, what a poignant story. 134 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: And I'm sure nearly every woman who is postpartum and 135 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 1: partners can relate. You know, biologically, it was postpartum, so 136 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 1: there was, of course the hormonal shift happening, but also 137 00:08:02,360 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: you were highly stressed. You had a newborn, you were 138 00:08:05,680 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: running to go get another child, and then you have 139 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,400 Speaker 1: these demands. He did it in a very innocuous way. 140 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:14,480 Speaker 1: It was a very simple request, but it was just 141 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: the straw that broke the camel's back. We are all 142 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: wired for survival and self preservation. Under periods of stress, 143 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: we are on high alert and there's a sense of 144 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:30,040 Speaker 1: hyper vigilance. So even something small like blueberries can feel 145 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 1: very triggering. It's a normal reaction to an abnormal situation 146 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,960 Speaker 1: and gosh, I can tell you so many instances where 147 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: that I have felt the same. You know, knowing the 148 00:08:41,280 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: science behind stress doesn't always change your relationship to stress 149 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 1: during those moments. Well, that's such an important piece versus 150 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,839 Speaker 1: awareness knowing that relationship to stress. And then there are 151 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,120 Speaker 1: other things we have to do. We can't just acknowledge 152 00:08:55,160 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: that we're in stressable situations. And I think over the season, 153 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: we're going to give people a lot of practical tips 154 00:09:01,520 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: and solutions to take agency in your own life. And 155 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,920 Speaker 1: so I think the other thing I wanted to ask 156 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: you is what happens when the presenting problem is not 157 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,559 Speaker 1: the real problem. So I want to say, as a mediator, 158 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: to get to the real problem, It's something that I've 159 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: been taught. I've taken all continuing legal education and mediation 160 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 1: and difficult conversations and still a d D. The presenting 161 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: problem wasn't like, oh wow, I should speak to Seth 162 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 1: about the fact that the gender division of labor is 163 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: showing up in our marriage. It wasn't anything like that. 164 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:41,760 Speaker 1: It was just sobbing to myself on the side of 165 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,720 Speaker 1: the road, blaming myself that I had done something wrong. 166 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 1: I didn't connect it to any of these broader issues, 167 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 1: and I have the privilege being trained to use my 168 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: voice for difficult conversations. So what tools do we have 169 00:09:56,920 --> 00:09:59,960 Speaker 1: to fight against this? Even I'm saying like someone who 170 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: should have had all the tools didn't even have one 171 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 1: in my toolbag. Then to move forward, my only option 172 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: I thought at that time was to leave my marriage. 173 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:15,360 Speaker 1: It's so interesting because ultimately, regardless of our education or experience, 174 00:10:15,480 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 1: biology is biology. So when we're not very stressed, we 175 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:24,520 Speaker 1: are in resilient mode, governed by the prefrontal cortex, and 176 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 1: that has been highly highly developed with your education, organization, planning, memory, 177 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: things we call executive functions. But under periods of stress, 178 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 1: our brains are no longer governed by the prefrontal cortex. 179 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 1: They're governed by the amygdala, or the limbig part of 180 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:45,319 Speaker 1: our brain. The amygdala is our powerhouse and it's our 181 00:10:45,400 --> 00:10:49,200 Speaker 1: emotional center, and during periods of stress, we are governed 182 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: by the amygdala we often called the amigzilla and the 183 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:55,719 Speaker 1: underlying structures around it the lizard brain. It is our 184 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 1: primordial reptilian brain that just hasn't changed. So we are 185 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,840 Speaker 1: no longer cave people running away from a tiger in 186 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,440 Speaker 1: the forest, right, we still have that stress response. They 187 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:11,880 Speaker 1: are no more tigers, we aren't necessarily living in forests, 188 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,719 Speaker 1: but we have lots of tigers, metaphorical tigers all around us. 189 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:19,320 Speaker 1: When you were driving that day, the blueberry was the tiger. 190 00:11:19,960 --> 00:11:23,480 Speaker 1: Your stress response was on overdrive and it was the 191 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: amygdala that was taking over. So even as a Harvard 192 00:11:28,240 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: trained mediator, with all of this knowledge and background and 193 00:11:32,520 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: incredible ability under periods of duress and stress, we go 194 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,640 Speaker 1: right back there to that amygdala. There's many things we 195 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 1: can do to help modulate that stress response over time, 196 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:47,599 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about. But it's not you. It's your biology. 197 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,480 Speaker 1: It's not any of us mythology. And when we learned 198 00:11:50,520 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: to work with our biology rather than compete against it, 199 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 1: that's when real change can happen. Well, I love that 200 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:02,719 Speaker 1: so much because one of the early mediation phrases I 201 00:12:02,800 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: learned was you don't want to take actions or mediate 202 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:13,839 Speaker 1: through a family when emotions are high and cognition is low. 203 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: And so I think the beauty of today is Our 204 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: guest is Matthew Frey, and he had a viral article 205 00:12:20,520 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 1: that was called My wife left Me because I left 206 00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: dishes by the side of the sink, and again, I 207 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 1: think that the stress response of seeing that dish there 208 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: for the hundredth time. These small things and how we 209 00:12:32,880 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: react to them are really what we're talking about today. 210 00:12:35,640 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: So we're gonna be talking to Matthew after the break 211 00:12:37,840 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: about all of these things, and I cannot wait for 212 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:52,959 Speaker 1: you to hear what he has to share. We're so 213 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 1: excited to welcome Matthew Frey. Matthew currently works as a 214 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: relationship coach as well as writes and speaks about marriage 215 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: and divorce. He followed this path after his wife left him, 216 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 1: as he said, because he left dishes by the sink. 217 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: His experience forced him to examine what went wrong and 218 00:13:12,360 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: how he inadvertently sabotaged his marriage. He recently finished writing 219 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 1: his first book that comes out in March, titled This 220 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: Is How Your Marriage Ends and Adity. I love that title. 221 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: He recounts the story and all that he's learned so 222 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: that other people don't make the same mistakes. Hi, Matthew, 223 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:38,200 Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you 224 00:13:38,240 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 1: so much for having me. Adda has some great questions 225 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:42,440 Speaker 1: for you, but I did want to start off, if 226 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: you'll let me, this great couple of sentences from the 227 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 1: beginning part of your book, which touched me so much. 228 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: You right, even though I barely touched my wife in 229 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: the previous two years, the thought of someone else doing 230 00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,800 Speaker 1: so wrecked me. My young son, not yet in kindergarten, 231 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: would now be raised by a dick bag, or this 232 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 1: dick bag, the guy she was dating. I thought I 233 00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 1: would no longer have any agency over who gets to 234 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: look after my son. I imagined a future where he 235 00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: would run off the field after little league games and 236 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 1: jump into the arms of his mom, an evil stepdad 237 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: who would look to everyone else like a beautiful little family, 238 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:27,760 Speaker 1: and I'd be some distance away, forcing a polite smile 239 00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:34,479 Speaker 1: as if everything were okay, but secretly wishing I were dead. Wow, 240 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: So that I don't think and encapsulate how much we 241 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: make short term decisions that end up having long term consequences, 242 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: And so I would love if you could just start 243 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 1: out telling us, Jesus, how did you get there? So 244 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,960 Speaker 1: that paragraph largely summed it up. I had to figure 245 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 1: out the story of my marriage, and I went to 246 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 1: work on it, and you put it together one bit 247 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,320 Speaker 1: at a time, and it took many years, and I'm 248 00:15:00,360 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: still not there. But we're approaching the nine year mark 249 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 1: of my marriage ending next April, and um, I still 250 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: don't know all of it, but I think I have 251 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 1: a much closer understanding today. And then as I discovered 252 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: some of these answers, I realized, Wow, a lot of 253 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:15,640 Speaker 1: people don't know this. A lot of just like guys 254 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: like me out in the world, don't know this. And 255 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: I thought I discovered a subtle and nuanced explanation for 256 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: how it happens, which to me, is the most logical 257 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: explanation for how half of all marriages can fail. As 258 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: I read your work, I want to quote you here. 259 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,480 Speaker 1: You say, I don't think the average guy wearing his 260 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: college football sweatshirt and drinking canned bud light on a 261 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon while his kids play in the backyard and 262 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,040 Speaker 1: his wife does all of the work required to keep 263 00:15:47,200 --> 00:15:50,400 Speaker 1: a household afloat is going to spend much time reading 264 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:54,920 Speaker 1: the Five Love Languages. Can you talk a little bit 265 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,360 Speaker 1: more about why you're the perfect messenger for this story 266 00:15:58,920 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 1: and how can we reach both men, women and other 267 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 1: family structures to do this kind of reflection and work, 268 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:07,720 Speaker 1: And why do you think this kind of work is 269 00:16:07,760 --> 00:16:10,920 Speaker 1: so important to do? During a marriage rather than at 270 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: the end of a marriage. I think I'm an adequate one. 271 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: I sort of average out to be like so many 272 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: of the guys that are in situations as I was, 273 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: And when I talked to them, I don't trigger that defensive, 274 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: resentful feeling that a lot of men report having in 275 00:16:30,360 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: their relationships, this notion that their wife's always complaining about him, 276 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 1: or like moving the goalposts further or finding some new 277 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: way to point out how he's failing her or the family. 278 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of really really deep, painful feelings 279 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: that a lot of men possess about that. And I 280 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: have those conversations a lot, But when I talked to them, 281 00:16:50,240 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: they just don't have that experience because I was in 282 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: that same situation with them. You know, you talk a 283 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: lot about judgment. You say that men invest their enter 284 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: g in one of three ways. They dispute the facts 285 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:07,160 Speaker 1: of the story their partner just told, or they agree 286 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:10,720 Speaker 1: with the facts but believe their partner is overreacting, or 287 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,479 Speaker 1: defend their actions by explaining why they did it. In 288 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:20,040 Speaker 1: all three cases, the partners feelings are invalidated. Talk to 289 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that. You know, we've all 290 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: felt it. I mean, as a married woman, I have 291 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: felt it. Eve writes a lot about this, but from 292 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 1: your perspective, can you talk to us a little bit 293 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:38,959 Speaker 1: about judgment and the invalidation of feelings? I can try so, right, 294 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:42,240 Speaker 1: It was early during the pandemic, and it was when 295 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:45,400 Speaker 1: like a lot of restaurants had shut down. It was March, 296 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: and so a lot of businesses were closed, including restaurants. 297 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:51,360 Speaker 1: And so I had a client who was a real 298 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,639 Speaker 1: estate guy, and he had a work emergency and he 299 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: hadn't been able to eat that day, and so he 300 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: went and got a fish sandwich for lunch. But because 301 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,399 Speaker 1: none of the vegan restaurant were Hope and him and 302 00:18:02,440 --> 00:18:06,359 Speaker 1: his wife were vegans, and his wife sent him a 303 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: text while he was on his afternoon call with me, 304 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: asking him what he'd had for lunch, just checking in, 305 00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,000 Speaker 1: just being his wife, and he, you know, immediately got 306 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,119 Speaker 1: really defensive and he didn't answer her. And he's on 307 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 1: the phone with me and he's like, Matt, what do 308 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: we do? He's like, if I told me the truth, 309 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: she's gonna get pissed. He's like, because I ate fish. 310 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: I'm like, why is that a problem? Because we're vegan. 311 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, where are you? Vegan? Goes, well, we have 312 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:29,159 Speaker 1: this a goog agreement to be vegan. It's like a 313 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:33,359 Speaker 1: health decision that we made. And he was like spazzing 314 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: out because his wife was going to get mad at 315 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 1: him for eating a fish sandwich, which he perceived to 316 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 1: not be a big deal. So his thought process was, 317 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: you're going to yell at me for eating a fish sandwich. 318 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: You know that that's crap. That's a gross misunderstanding of 319 00:18:47,160 --> 00:18:51,000 Speaker 1: the situation A and B. It's like an unfair emotional 320 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 1: reaction to the crime committed, which so many men feel 321 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: this notion of like an overreaction, and then they, you know, 322 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: get defensive. It's like I had a work emergency. All 323 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:03,800 Speaker 1: the restaurants were closed because of COVID, and he was 324 00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 1: talking about how he's going to go home and feel 325 00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: his wife's wrath because he ate a fish sandwich. And 326 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:11,000 Speaker 1: that's when I had to have a conversation with them 327 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 1: about this notion of perspective. And the thing that I 328 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: said to him is, your wife is not mad at 329 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,199 Speaker 1: you because you ate fish. It's the same thing I 330 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: might have said about my wife leaving me because I 331 00:19:24,320 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 1: left the dish by the saying it's it's nonsense. His 332 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 1: wife was upset with them because he broke a promise 333 00:19:30,240 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: to be vegan with that was a promise hed and 334 00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: then he didn't even have the decency to like check 335 00:19:36,119 --> 00:19:38,880 Speaker 1: in with her and be like, hey, here's the situation 336 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: if I do this, is this like dishonoring the code 337 00:19:42,040 --> 00:19:43,400 Speaker 1: we have. You hear stories like this all the time, 338 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 1: People who cheat on their partners by like watching like 339 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: two episodes ahead on the Netflix show they're watching together. 340 00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:52,160 Speaker 1: Went through these like tiny betrayals that happened all the time, 341 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: And it's so easy for us to write off having 342 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: an emotional reaction about it. But betrayal can be betrayal, 343 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:02,679 Speaker 1: even when it's about Netflix shows and even when it's 344 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: about fish sandwiches. And I think it's a really important 345 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: idea that people can't trust you when you don't keep 346 00:20:08,720 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: your promises to them, and it's not really relevant what 347 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: the promises. And I think that's a reasonable question for 348 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,240 Speaker 1: for someone to ask in a marriage, and it's about 349 00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: this is important to that person. I love them, Therefore 350 00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 1: I'm going to treat it with importance. And it's not 351 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 1: a skill. I possessed in my marriage, and I fundamentally 352 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 1: didn't know how to calculate for what that betrayal would 353 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 1: mean to my marriage over time, done over the course 354 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: of a twelve year relationship, These tiny trust betrayals they 355 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:38,199 Speaker 1: paper cut you to death, you know. But there's that 356 00:20:38,280 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: moment right before that betrayal, right, Like with this fish 357 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: sandwich story, the guy could have sent his wife a 358 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: text saying, Hey, there are no restaurants open, I'm gonna 359 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:53,320 Speaker 1: bind I'm going to eat this fish sandwich. But he didn't, 360 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:55,760 Speaker 1: and then he kind of got himself into a hole. 361 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,840 Speaker 1: So why do so many people feel like they can't share? 362 00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:03,240 Speaker 1: Why is it not easy for that particular person to 363 00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:05,119 Speaker 1: just say, hey, heads up, I want to let you 364 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: know what I'm thinking. I mean, why does everyone do this? 365 00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: That's a great question. The guys that I've talked to, 366 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: there's like a fear of not not literally, they resent 367 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,640 Speaker 1: that they have to be afraid of it, right. They 368 00:21:18,720 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 1: believe they won't be allowed and they don't ask permission 369 00:21:22,920 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: to do an adult thing that they should be allowed 370 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: to do, and so they just do in like this 371 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: like sneaky way, calculating that the thing isn't harmful. I 372 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: don't know where that comes from. I'm assuming the condition 373 00:21:33,200 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: exists because of a fundamental lack of trust and respect 374 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: in the relationship, which is sort of the thing I'm 375 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:41,959 Speaker 1: advocating in the first place, because this is exactly the 376 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: sort of decision making that produces the lack of trust 377 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,720 Speaker 1: and intimacy in a relationship where two people are going 378 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: to respect one another and not feel any sort of 379 00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,920 Speaker 1: anxiety about Hey, if I were to do this, how 380 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: would it make you feel? Because I want to factor 381 00:21:56,400 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 1: that into my decision making process, and that really feel like, 382 00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:03,600 Speaker 1: foundationally needs to be a condition in a relationship designed 383 00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,199 Speaker 1: to go to the distance. But many relationships aren't. They 384 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:09,040 Speaker 1: have these tiny secrets that the people that have them 385 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:13,439 Speaker 1: calculate it's not a relationship breaking secret, and the idea 386 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: eludes them that having the secret in the first place 387 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: is what breaks the relationships slowly over time. What I 388 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,600 Speaker 1: love about that is it's like the what's the big deal? Right? 389 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: And and it's so invalidating to hear that. One of 390 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,680 Speaker 1: the ways it came out when I spoke to men 391 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: who are married to women. So many men said to me, well, 392 00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: I'm not sure I can get on board with your 393 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: fair play system and the hundred cards because my wife 394 00:22:37,720 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 1: does so many unnecessary things and it was so invalidating 395 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 1: to hear that, and I would get triggered on behalf 396 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: of these women be like, what's unecessary? Okay, let's meeting 397 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:51,720 Speaker 1: your children? Is that unnecessary? I think fun and playing 398 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: is that unnecessary? What about hard questions? And I would 399 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 1: literally just start attacking. And I apologize to the early 400 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: interviews I had because if you're out there listening, I 401 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: was highly triggered by what you were saying. But ultimately, 402 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: fair play is a love letter to men. Your fundamental distillation, 403 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: Matthew that this is not about bringing home the wrong 404 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,399 Speaker 1: type of mustard or forgetting to pick up a glue stick, 405 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: but this idea that fundamentally this is about accountability and 406 00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: trust as the foundations of good strong non Cortisol as 407 00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: a deity would say, relationships. You know, this reminds me 408 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: of a quote you have written about this. You say, 409 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: most guys don't know that she's not fighting about the glass, right, 410 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:44,520 Speaker 1: You talk about the dishwasher and the glass. Eve talks 411 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: about blueberries, So she's not actually fighting about the glass. 412 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: She's fighting for acknowledgement, respect, validation, and his love. And 413 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: I love that formula that you present cared for equals 414 00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 1: and this idea that it's like these very little things 415 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 1: that what when the partner, when the woman says, hey, 416 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: this is what it means to feel cared for. It's 417 00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: these small things that really add up, and when those 418 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,560 Speaker 1: promises are not met, that's when the problem arises. You'd 419 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: use a big word like betrayal, which to me, I 420 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: don't think of not putting a glass in the dishwasher 421 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,760 Speaker 1: as quote unquote a betrayal, but over time, you know, 422 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: it sure as hell feels like it when it's happening, 423 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: though it doesn't necessarily match up that small event and 424 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:33,160 Speaker 1: those big feelings of what betrayal means. I didn't mention 425 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: it in the book at all, but I found myself 426 00:24:34,520 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: using this term a lot, This notion of leaving breadcrumbs, 427 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: like leaving evidence that you don't respect and consider your 428 00:24:41,440 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: romantic partner. And can I be mindful of the evidence 429 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 1: that I leave that she's not loved, cared for, considered, respected, 430 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: all these things? And I talked about it in that way, 431 00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: this notion of let's not concern ourselves with whether someone 432 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 1: should or shouldn't be hurt by something. Let's not get 433 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: caught up in an intellectual debate about whether something is 434 00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: harmful or not harmful. If somebody's reporting pain because something happened, 435 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: regardless of what it is, can you accept responsibility for 436 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: not leaving evidence that you're not going to be there 437 00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 1: to support and or protect. I think the mission in 438 00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 1: order to have healthy, sustainable relationships that, regardless of my 439 00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: thoughts or my feelings and how closely they mirror yours, 440 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,280 Speaker 1: I am going to accept responsibility for not leaving evidence 441 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,000 Speaker 1: or leaving anything that will hurt you. And the work 442 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: is deciding ahead of time you're not going to allow 443 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: anything to inadvertently harm that people you care about. Can 444 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 1: you talk to us a little bit about this concept 445 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: which we've loosely already discussed, but really pin it down, 446 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: accidental sexism. I don't know if I'm going to take 447 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,200 Speaker 1: credit for for coining necessarily, but yeah, I do use it, 448 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: and that's because the word sexist is really ugly to me. 449 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: It sounds like other is ms that I don't want 450 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,160 Speaker 1: to be associated with. And I was really defensive about 451 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: this notion of being sexist. It's like, I don't think 452 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,640 Speaker 1: men are better than women, and I never have. My 453 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:09,880 Speaker 1: mom was a single mom for a long time and 454 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: she did an enormous amount. But it turns out when 455 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 1: you have ideas in your head about men do things 456 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: this way and women do things this way, and if 457 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: either does things in a way that my brain doesn't 458 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: calculate to be normal or correct, that it's weird or wrong. 459 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: And you know that shows up in a million ways 460 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: and male identity, and I think most significantly in the 461 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: context of this conversation have shared domestic responsibility, everything related 462 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:44,199 Speaker 1: to the second shift, emotional labor, invisible work, parenting, and 463 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: undoubtedly my greatest failing was coming home and just putting 464 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 1: my hands up waiting for my wife to tell me 465 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,080 Speaker 1: what to do all the time. Right, you were so 466 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,200 Speaker 1: good at this. I thought you are amazing at this. 467 00:26:56,840 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: I'll just wait and you can just be the board 468 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: of directors aroun on here and let me know what 469 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,199 Speaker 1: needs done next. And I feel really awful about that. 470 00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: And now I see it. It's so obvious to me 471 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:10,439 Speaker 1: the people that check out of the process either of 472 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: shared domestic responsibility in the context of logistics at home 473 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,399 Speaker 1: or the parenting process. And I'll call that accident on 474 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,919 Speaker 1: a sexism. We were talking earlier about the idea of 475 00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:23,320 Speaker 1: the executive brain, that prefrontal cortex, which is the frontal 476 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 1: lobe that governs organization, planning, memory, all of these things 477 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: which are highly skilled in the workplace. But why is 478 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:33,400 Speaker 1: it that when men walk in the door of their 479 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,320 Speaker 1: home all of those skills that have been so highly 480 00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 1: refined for decades and decades in the workplace just fall 481 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: to the side. I think some of it is probably laziness. 482 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 1: Some of it is I'm tired and stressed. I had 483 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,120 Speaker 1: a long day of work. I'm coming home and I'm 484 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 1: going to do with my father and my grandfather and 485 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,920 Speaker 1: all my best friends. Dad's, my uncle's and everyone else 486 00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,159 Speaker 1: did and that's what you do when you come my 487 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: I really do think this is changing. It's just what 488 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: we saw. I don't know how to say it better 489 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 1: than that. As you're talking, it's kind of bringing up 490 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:12,760 Speaker 1: for me, is this sense of blaming the individual, But 491 00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: instead it's really a systemic issue. We're not talking about 492 00:28:16,000 --> 00:28:19,800 Speaker 1: the individual. It's a whole system. It's what your father did, 493 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 1: what your uncle's did, what your grandfather did, so how 494 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: can we shift that on a system wide level. I've 495 00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 1: thought about this a lot, and one of the ideas, 496 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:34,880 Speaker 1: do you remember the DARE program totally? I was like, 497 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,880 Speaker 1: could I try to involve myself somehow and in some 498 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: like grassroots program that we tried to make big that 499 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:47,480 Speaker 1: got into schools and had age appropriate messaging. Can we 500 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: start having these conversations sooner? I think it's less about 501 00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,600 Speaker 1: what we're taughting what we're not taught. If you had 502 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: the foresight to understand that some of these subtle ideas 503 00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: about emptying a d humidifier or flipping the clean dirty 504 00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:07,040 Speaker 1: sign on a dishwasher, or eating a fish sandwich when 505 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: you agree to be vegan with your wife, there are 506 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:13,640 Speaker 1: countless tiny examples that any one of them we all 507 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,040 Speaker 1: calculate to be so benign that there's no way that 508 00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: should end a marriage. But it's this steady paper cut 509 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: betrayal and yes, and if we can somehow find a 510 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: way to get that idea implanted inside the heads of 511 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:32,080 Speaker 1: young people prior to forming their long term relationships, and 512 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,920 Speaker 1: it's just taking more care. I just think we stave 513 00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:39,480 Speaker 1: off so many things. Thank you, honestly, thank you. I 514 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: really believe that you leaving a dish by the sink 515 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 1: was probably a really good thing for society, even though 516 00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:48,200 Speaker 1: it was not great for you personally. So thank you 517 00:29:48,840 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: for what you're giving back. I really appreciate that. Thank you. Hi, 518 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: it's me Eve, and I want to tell you about 519 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 1: my latest book, Find Your Unicorn Space. So you're playing 520 00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: fair and have established equity in your home, but now 521 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: what it's time to find your Unicorn Space. My new 522 00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 1: book will help you set personal goals, rediscover your interests, 523 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: and reclaim the creative expression of self that makes you 524 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: uniquely you. Find your Unicorn Space is a mix of 525 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,720 Speaker 1: research space, how to advice, and big picture inspirational thinking. 526 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: I hope it can show you a clear path to 527 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: reclaim your permission to be unavailable and manifest your own 528 00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,080 Speaker 1: unicorn space. Find your Unicorn Space is available now wherever 529 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: books are sold. So every episode of this podcast will 530 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,719 Speaker 1: be ending with an action item for you. Are listeners 531 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:53,920 Speaker 1: that we call a time out. This is really a 532 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: time for you to focus on yourself and reflect on 533 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: what you're hearing today. And we're starting the conversation first 534 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: with ourselves and then ultimately with our partners and others. 535 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 1: So one thing I wanted to ask you that would 536 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: be really helpful to have through our entire season is 537 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,120 Speaker 1: a time out journal. So what I'd love for you 538 00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: to do is to go to Target or whatever your 539 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 1: big box store is and start to browse browse some 540 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: of the journals. I did find a journal that I loved, 541 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: a d D that I use for my own time 542 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 1: out exercises, and the front cover had a radio head 543 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:35,120 Speaker 1: lyric on it that said, for a minute there I 544 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 1: lost myself. And why I thought that was so important 545 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: is because we're here to take the space to communally 546 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 1: find ourselves again and to tell the stories that we 547 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,320 Speaker 1: often don't get to tell when we pretend they were 548 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:55,959 Speaker 1: all perfectly productive and perfectly perfect, which we're not. And 549 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: so I'm excited for you a d D to tell 550 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,680 Speaker 1: our list and ners what they will be doing this 551 00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 1: week once they have their journals. You know, as human beings, 552 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,719 Speaker 1: we all just want to be seen, heard, understood, and loved, 553 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,959 Speaker 1: and as Matthew taught us, when we are faced with 554 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: tiny betrayals, we often feel none of those things. So 555 00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: what was your tiny betrayal? How did you not feel 556 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: seen or not feel heard, not feel understood, and ultimately 557 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: not feel loved. How could that have been changed? Write 558 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: down your reflections, think about what's going on underneath the 559 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,080 Speaker 1: surface of that tiny betrayal, that huge, big thing that 560 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 1: you're trying to unpack, And think a little bit more 561 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: about your tiny betrayal and what the huge ramifications of 562 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:46,680 Speaker 1: it are and what it actually means. Because we know, 563 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: in truth there's no such thing as a tiny betrayal, 564 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,120 Speaker 1: And I will add to the d D and say, 565 00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: in truth, there's no such thing as tiny issues around marriage, 566 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:04,440 Speaker 1: unpaid labor, women doing more in the home time. And 567 00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: so we'll keep unpacking these things throughout the season. But 568 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:11,600 Speaker 1: the most important thing to recognize is that if it 569 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: feels tiny to you, it's probably because somebody shamed you 570 00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: to make it feel that way, or because society has 571 00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: shamed you to not care about these issues, or to 572 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: feel that these shouldn't matter, or that you should be 573 00:33:24,680 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: able to be perfectly perfect. And we're not, and we're 574 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: going to be here to unpack the fact that nothing, 575 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:35,400 Speaker 1: nothing about what we're talking about this season is tiny. 576 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 1: Thanks so much for listening, Thank you Eve for all 577 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 1: your wisdom. Next week we're going to dive a little 578 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: bit deeper into time, what it means, what it stands for, 579 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 1: and how we can change it to serve us better. 580 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: We hope you join us. Thank you for listening to 581 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: Time Out, a production of I Heart Podcasts and Hello Sunshine. 582 00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,560 Speaker 1: I'm Vrodsky, author of the New York Times bestseller fair 583 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: Play and find your Unicorn Space. Follow me on social 584 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,800 Speaker 1: media at ev Rodsky and learn more about our work 585 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:13,560 Speaker 1: at fair Play Life. And I'm Dr Addi Narukar, a 586 00:34:13,600 --> 00:34:17,560 Speaker 1: Harvard physician with a specialty and stressed resilience, burnout, and 587 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,240 Speaker 1: mental health. Follow me on social media at Dr add 588 00:34:21,480 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: Nerucar and find out more about my work at dor 589 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,800 Speaker 1: add dot com. That's d R A d I t 590 00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: I dot com. Our Hello Sunshine team is Amanda farrand 591 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: Aaron Stover and Jennifer Yonker. Our I Heart Media team 592 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:40,439 Speaker 1: is Ali Perry, Jennifer Bassett, and Jessica Krinschitch. We hope 593 00:34:40,480 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: you all love taking a much needed time out with 594 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 1: us today. Listen and subscribe to Time Out on the 595 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 596 00:34:48,800 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.