1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,520 Speaker 1: The Michael Berry Show. Welcome to the Saturday Podcast, and 2 00:00:03,560 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: for the second week in a row, there will be 3 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: tomorrow a Sunday podcast we are delighted to bring to 4 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: you courtesy of Darryl Koond to the newest member of 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,640 Speaker 1: our team. So we are adding now all seven days. 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: If you choose to download your podcast on the day of, 7 00:00:21,680 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 1: you will get our Sunday podcast tomorrow. But for today's 8 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:32,839 Speaker 1: Saturday Podcast, we're diving into the sharp, uncompromising mind of 9 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: my favorite living economist, Thomas Sol, a man whose work 10 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,960 Speaker 1: has challenged conventional wisdom, trained the mind of the keen 11 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: and curious, and been a great American patriot for longer 12 00:00:51,320 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 1: than I've been alive. A senior fellow at the Hoover 13 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:59,440 Speaker 1: Institute and a former Marxist turn free market advocate, Thomas 14 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,720 Speaker 1: Sol has built a legacy of cutting through political spin 15 00:01:03,880 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: with data, clarity and brutal honesty. I think Thomas Soule's 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: Basic Economics, a book he wrote one of many, is 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,080 Speaker 1: the best primer for every person listening to me who 18 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: is trying to get a better understanding of what capitalism means. 19 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: It is simply written by a man who is writing 20 00:01:25,920 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 1: far below his intellectual level or his use of the 21 00:01:30,720 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: English language, because it's meant to be incredibly accessible. It's 22 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: called basic economics. And I know that sounds dry, but 23 00:01:39,640 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: I think you will find when I'm exercising I listen 24 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: to it. I listened to it at least once a 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: year as a primer to go back. It's just wonderful. Well, 26 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 1: in his book Social Justice Fallacies, he takes aim at 27 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 1: one of the most powerful narratives of our time, the 28 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,480 Speaker 1: social justice this movement. He's not just an economist. He 29 00:02:03,520 --> 00:02:07,680 Speaker 1: talks about culture a lot as well, and he has 30 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:12,360 Speaker 1: this just brilliant blend of historical insight. I mean he 31 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: could have been a historian, and in a sense he is. 32 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: But he also applies his knowledge and understanding of the 33 00:02:20,560 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: laws of economics. And he is unafraid, unabashed. And this 34 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: is a black man who wrote Black Rednecks and White Liberals. 35 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: He is unafraid to ruffle some foot feathers and to 36 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 1: speak truth. And I absolutely admire him. He won't be 37 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 1: with us forever. He's well into his nineties. So anyway, 38 00:02:41,080 --> 00:02:43,840 Speaker 1: here's Thomas Soul and reminder that tomorrow we will have 39 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 1: our second edition of the Sunday Podcast two. 40 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 2: Events in the Life of Today's guest. He just turned 41 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: ninety three, and he just published his latest book, Thomas 42 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 2: Soul on Uncommon Knowledge. Now, welcome to Uncommon Knowledge. I'm 43 00:03:09,040 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 2: Peter Robinson. After growing up in Harlem, Thomas Sole served 44 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 2: in the United States Marine Corps, then received an undergraduate 45 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:20,440 Speaker 2: degree from Harvard, a master's degree from Columbia, a doctorate 46 00:03:20,680 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 2: from the University of Chicago. After teaching at universities that 47 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: included Cornell, Brandeis and UCLA, Doctor Soul became a fellow 48 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 2: at the Hoover Institution in nineteen seventy seven. Thomas Sole 49 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 2: is the author of some forty books, including his newest volume, 50 00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 2: Social Justice Fallacies, and this past spring he turned ninety three. Tom, 51 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Uncommon Knowledge. Oh being here, you know 52 00:03:48,360 --> 00:03:51,120 Speaker 2: I can't help thinking reading your background, if only you'd 53 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: been a little bit more industrious, you might have been 54 00:03:53,920 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: able to make a name for yourself. Social Justice Doctor 55 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 2: Martin Luther King in nineteen sixty three, I have a 56 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: dream my. 57 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 1: Poor little children. 58 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,160 Speaker 3: One day live in a nation where they will not 59 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: be judged by the color of their skin, but by 60 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 3: the content of that character. I have a. 61 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 2: Dreamed and you right, Doctor King's message was equal opportunity 62 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:30,760 Speaker 2: for individuals, regardless of race. In the years that followed, 63 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: the goal changed to equal outcomes for groups. What now 64 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: rose to dominance was the social justice agenda. If the 65 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: social justice those backing the social justice agenda, could have 66 00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,320 Speaker 2: everything they wanted, what would the country look like? 67 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 4: We'd be killing each other? 68 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 2: All right, can you give me intermediate steps? In other words, 69 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 2: what is the social justice agenda? What do they want? 70 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 3: They want everybody to have equal, equal outcomes, or as 71 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: close as they can get to it. Unfortunately, you don't 72 00:05:15,040 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 3: have You don't have the preconditions for that, even in 73 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 3: the same family. One of the examples I use in 74 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:33,480 Speaker 3: the book is, among among five child families, right, the 75 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 3: national merit finalist is the first born just over half 76 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:41,320 Speaker 3: the time. That is more often than the other four 77 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:46,359 Speaker 3: siblings combined. The fifth born is six percent of the time. 78 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:49,160 Speaker 4: And so it was. 79 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:52,600 Speaker 3: Even where you have almost ideal conditions, they are born 80 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: to the same parents, raised under the same roof, and 81 00:05:56,120 --> 00:05:57,159 Speaker 3: they are not the same. 82 00:05:58,279 --> 00:06:00,800 Speaker 2: Because all kinds of things mattercluding birth order. 83 00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:03,360 Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, absolutely, all right. 84 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:06,919 Speaker 2: You take on various fallacies here. Let's take on a 85 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:13,039 Speaker 2: couple of them. The equal chances fallacy, even in a 86 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,200 Speaker 2: society I'm quoting you, social justice fallacies, Even in a 87 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 2: society with equal opportunity, people from different backgrounds do not 88 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 2: necessarily even want to do the same things. And American 89 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 2: sports blacks are very over represented in professional basketball, whites 90 00:06:31,720 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 2: in professional tennis, and Hispanics in Major League Baseball. Why 91 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: is that telling? 92 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 3: Because the implicit assumption, and sometimes explicit assumption, is that 93 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,960 Speaker 3: in a world where everything was fair, where everyone's treated fairly, 94 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: you would have things would be representative of the population 95 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,279 Speaker 3: demographics as a whole in all these various activities. Imagine 96 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 3: a black kids born in Harlem and he's born with 97 00:07:03,680 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 3: a body identical that of Rudolphin Arrea, of the great 98 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 3: ballet dancer. There's there's the odds of one thousand and 99 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,120 Speaker 3: one that he will become a ballet dancer, much less 100 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 3: another Rudolph and Arraya. I mean, he would be looked 101 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,120 Speaker 3: at strangely by all his friends in the neighborhood if 102 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 3: he even wanted to do that, what you mean? But 103 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 3: he wouldn't even think about it, right, right? 104 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 4: Right? 105 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: So you mean to say that when you tried out 106 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: for theo. You tried out for the pitching position and 107 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 2: the Brooklyn Dodgers and they didn't hire you. You were 108 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 2: not being discriminated against. 109 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,000 Speaker 3: Actually I was trying out off for frace base. And 110 00:07:43,080 --> 00:07:45,679 Speaker 3: the real reason I messed up was that my position 111 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:47,920 Speaker 3: was centered field. But in order to be a good 112 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 3: center fielder, I need hours and hours of practice, and 113 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 3: it was it was a very bad spring. I got 114 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 3: very little practice, and so I figured, at least I 115 00:07:58,440 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 3: won't to go out and make an idiot my self. 116 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 3: Incentive feelings left made an idiot of myself at first 117 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 3: base right. 118 00:08:07,440 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 2: Chess pieces fallacy. The Chess pieces fallacy explain that one well. 119 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:16,240 Speaker 3: Adam Smith had a very low opinion of abstract serious 120 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 3: who imagine that they can control a whole society with 121 00:08:21,920 --> 00:08:25,680 Speaker 3: the ease with which one puts chess pieces where you 122 00:08:25,720 --> 00:08:27,760 Speaker 3: want them on a chessboard. 123 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 4: And so. 124 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 3: There's this notion of this inert, massive people down there, 125 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: and then the wonderfully brilliant people at the top who 126 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,560 Speaker 3: ought to be telling them what to do. And there's 127 00:08:38,600 --> 00:08:41,040 Speaker 3: no thought that, first of all, those the top don't 128 00:08:41,080 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 3: even know the people's individual conditions, who are very different 129 00:08:47,080 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: from themselves, and when they try to help. 130 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:51,680 Speaker 4: They make things. They can make things disastrous. 131 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,280 Speaker 2: You discuss the theory of justice. This is under knowledge fallacy, 132 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: a theory of justice which is in certain call, certain 133 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:04,440 Speaker 2: circles every university in the country, the philosophy department, political science. 134 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: You'll get it in sociology. This is the Big Book 135 00:09:08,320 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 2: on Social justice written by John Rawl's philosopher at Harvard. 136 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 2: I'm quoting you. Tom Rawles refers to things that society 137 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 2: should arrange. You quote him. Arrange, that's the word he uses. 138 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 2: And then Tom Sole says, the interior decorators arrange, governments compel. 139 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 2: It is not a subtle distinction. Explain that, Well. 140 00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: If you're going to try to get some kind of result, 141 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,160 Speaker 3: you have to specify through what kinds of mechanism you 142 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 3: expect to get that result. And different mechanisms, whether it's 143 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 3: the government, the market, or the Red Cross, whatever, they 144 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: have their own individual things that they're good at and 145 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,520 Speaker 3: not so good at. And so you can't get the 146 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: social justice result that you want unless you have the 147 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 3: kind of institution there's likely to produce that result. Politics 148 00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: is not that kind of institution. 149 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 2: And yet they all implicitly rely on government. Yes, redistribution 150 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 2: of wealth, adjusting using legal regimes to adjust the proportions 151 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 2: of various groups that get certain jobs. They all rely 152 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 2: on government. And what's distinctive about government is it's the 153 00:10:21,000 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 2: one institution that can send you to jail. Yes, all right, 154 00:10:24,600 --> 00:10:27,760 Speaker 2: And that's the point is that's dangerous. We shouldn't want 155 00:10:27,800 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: more government, more hands in the power of the politician. 156 00:10:30,040 --> 00:10:30,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 157 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,480 Speaker 3: One of the real problems is that you have people 158 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 3: making decisions for which they pay no price when they're wrong, 159 00:10:37,880 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: no matter how high a price other people pay. Right now, 160 00:10:42,800 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 3: the homicide rates are beyond anything that were around, let's say, 161 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:53,000 Speaker 3: prior to nineteen sixty. And I mentioned nineteen sixty in 162 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:56,679 Speaker 3: this case because that's when the Supreme Court remade the 163 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: criminal law. They discovered rights in the constant and no 164 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: one had noticed for over a century, and they were 165 00:11:04,559 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 3: impervious to evidence. 166 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:11,400 Speaker 2: So contrast your neighborhood in Harlem when you were an 167 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 2: eight and nine and ten year old boy with what 168 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 2: we see in neighborhoods in Chicago today. 169 00:11:17,320 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, people are astonished when I tell them 170 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,520 Speaker 3: I grew up in Harlem. I can't remember ever hearing 171 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 3: a gunshot. And then I've checked with my relatives who 172 00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: grew up in similar neighborhoods in Washington and down in 173 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 3: North Carolina. They never heard of s gunshot when they 174 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 3: were growing up. 175 00:11:35,400 --> 00:11:37,720 Speaker 4: You know. I remember going back. 176 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:40,800 Speaker 3: To Harlem some years ago to do some researcher to 177 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 3: high school, and I looked out the window, and there's 178 00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 3: this park there near the high school. And I mentioned 179 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 3: in passing that when I when I, when I lived 180 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 3: in Harlem, it was a kid, I would take my 181 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:55,679 Speaker 3: dog for a walk in that park, and looks. 182 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 4: Of horror came over the students' faces. 183 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 3: People have no idea how much has retrogressed over the 184 00:12:02,559 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 3: years in the black community, and how much of what 185 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:10,839 Speaker 3: progress has been made has not been made by politicians 186 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:17,000 Speaker 3: or by charismatic leaders. If one of the things that 187 00:12:17,080 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 3: drives me crazy people who cite trends over time without 188 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: deciding where they're going to start the time period. For example, 189 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:32,000 Speaker 3: it's I said that all sorts of wonderful things happened 190 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 3: in the nineteen sixties and beyond, and especially for the 191 00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 3: minorities and the poor and so forth. So what I did, 192 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 3: I said, no, Well, you if you start the data 193 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty. We don't know how much was a 194 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,840 Speaker 3: result of that and how much the results of other things. 195 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 3: That also applies in other things. One simple one. Many 196 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,520 Speaker 3: people say, you know, we're off Native wrote this book 197 00:12:56,520 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty five, and as about the automobile safety 198 00:13:00,440 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 3: and so on. As a result, there were laws by 199 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,320 Speaker 3: the government, and the death rates went down after that, 200 00:13:07,559 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: which is true in itself. But the death rate went 201 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,280 Speaker 3: down at a far higher rate prior to his writing 202 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 3: the book. And this was the continuation of a trend 203 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:19,839 Speaker 3: that went back another twenty or thirty. 204 00:13:19,640 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 2: Years because the market, because car manufacturers, when it came 205 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: right down to it, had very little interest in getting 206 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 2: people killed. 207 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: Yes, you kill off your customers, your chances all, you 208 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 3: won't still as many cars. 209 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:34,520 Speaker 2: The big fallacy at least, I take this as in 210 00:13:34,559 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: many ways the heart of the book Racial Fallacies. Now 211 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 2: in this section, in this chapter on racial fallacies, you 212 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,280 Speaker 2: begin Almost all of this book is addressed to the 213 00:13:46,320 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 2: current moment. But in Racial Fallacies you start by going 214 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:55,440 Speaker 2: back about one hundred years to lay out the progressive 215 00:13:55,600 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 2: position in the nineteen tens and twenties for some years afterward. 216 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,160 Speaker 2: I'm quoting you in addressing the massive increase in immigration 217 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,240 Speaker 2: from Eastern and Southern Europe. This begins. This massive increase 218 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 2: in immigration begins toward the end of the nineteenth century 219 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:14,480 Speaker 2: and carries on through the nineteen twenties. In addressing the 220 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: massive increase in immigration, progressives claimed that these new immigrants 221 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 2: were inherently genetically and therefore permanently inferior. So your argument 222 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,960 Speaker 2: is that a century or so ago, progressives believed roughly 223 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,160 Speaker 2: the same about Polish and Italian immigrants that whites in 224 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:41,360 Speaker 2: the South had long believed about blacks. Oh yes, all right, 225 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 2: social justice fallacies. I'm going to read a quotation that 226 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 2: I'd like you to take us through this material. With 227 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:52,520 Speaker 2: the passing years, more and more evidence undermined the conclusion 228 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 2: of the genetic determinists. Jews, who had scored low on 229 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: the nineteen seventeen Armymental Test, began to score above the 230 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,760 Speaker 2: national average on various tests as they became a more 231 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: English speaking group. A study showed that black orphans, black 232 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:14,840 Speaker 2: orphans raised by white families had significantly higher average IQs 233 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: than other black children. Close quote. So, in the century 234 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:24,920 Speaker 2: since this, you call them genetic determined, which is one 235 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 2: way of putting that they were racists. They believe that 236 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 2: some races were permanently inferious. 237 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:31,840 Speaker 4: Yes, and and and should be eliminated. 238 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 2: And we've learned that's total nonsense. But even more than that, 239 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 2: we've learned that IQ is malleable. Is that correct? 240 00:15:38,880 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 4: I'm not sure what you mean by malady. 241 00:15:40,440 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 2: Well, that that is to say that this ranking of 242 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 2: the ranking change stupid in nineteen seventeen because they score 243 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:49,480 Speaker 2: badly on tests. 244 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 3: But they started test written in English, written tests written 245 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 3: in English, and people who who spoke English did better 246 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 3: on those tests. 247 00:15:56,320 --> 00:15:58,760 Speaker 2: Or that or that, or that blacks have a certain 248 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:02,800 Speaker 2: fixed IQ ranking, and then you have black orphans raised 249 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: by white families, in other words, a different cultural Yeah, 250 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 2: but even. 251 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 3: Before that study wasn't done until nineteen seventy six, but 252 00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 3: even as of the time where World War One, the 253 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,600 Speaker 3: data showed that black soldiers scored below white white soldiers. 254 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 4: And this is one of the reason reasons that sold 255 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 4: the theory. 256 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 3: You need people with contrary opinions to be able to 257 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 3: be free to attack things. The people who believe that 258 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:32,600 Speaker 3: that this is genetically determined, is that that's it, that's 259 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 3: the answer. And they moved on some other people said, 260 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: let's look at it more closely, and they discovered that 261 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: black soldiers from New York, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, and 262 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: one or two other states scored higher than white soldiers 263 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 3: from Mississippi, Alabama, et cetera, et cetera. And as I 264 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 3: mentioned in the book, people's genies do not change when 265 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: they cross the state line. The problem is that when 266 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,479 Speaker 3: you have people who are crusading for some idea, whatever 267 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 3: the idea is, and they find some data that fits 268 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:09,840 Speaker 3: what they believe, that's the end of the story as 269 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,119 Speaker 3: far as they concerned, which is fine if there are 270 00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:17,159 Speaker 3: other people with contrary ideas who will look closer for 271 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 3: something that. 272 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,879 Speaker 2: Goes the other way and then get listened to. 273 00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 4: Yes. Yes. 274 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,280 Speaker 2: By the way, you describe in the book the Flint 275 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 2: effect discovered by your your friend, the late James Flynn, 276 00:17:28,880 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 2: can you describe that? That's fascinating? Well. 277 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 3: The the idea of the genetic determinists is that you 278 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 3: had to rid the country of these these interior races, 279 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,360 Speaker 3: because otherwise the national i Q would go down over 280 00:17:42,440 --> 00:17:45,399 Speaker 3: time because the poorer people had more children than the 281 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 3: richer people. And so that that went on for here 282 00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:54,959 Speaker 3: again the i Q data there that that the genetic 283 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 3: determinists were relying on looked like it supported what they said, 284 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: But Jim Flynn decided that, well, first of all, you 285 00:18:03,080 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 3: have to understand what an IQ score, how an IQ 286 00:18:05,880 --> 00:18:06,960 Speaker 3: scor has arrived at. 287 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:08,880 Speaker 4: Whatever a number of. 288 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 3: Questions answered correctly is the average at a given time 289 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 3: is given the number of number one hundred. Because when 290 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 3: you do these tests, especially with children, if a six 291 00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 3: year old child scores the same as a twelve year 292 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 3: old child, that means the sixty year old child is 293 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 3: either much brighter than usual or the twelve year old 294 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: child is a lot less than the usual. And so 295 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: you compare all the six year old children and whatever 296 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,320 Speaker 3: the six year old children, how many questions they answered correctly, 297 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 3: That becomes one hundred, and then similarly for all the 298 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 3: other ages. 299 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 4: So you can do. 300 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,640 Speaker 3: That and an adulthood at some point you simply say 301 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:55,400 Speaker 3: adult and non adult. All right, Now, that sounds very, 302 00:18:54,960 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 3: very very innocent in itself, But what happens when people 303 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:03,960 Speaker 3: start answering more questions correctly than before the next generation 304 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:07,680 Speaker 3: answers more questions. Now the number of questions answered by 305 00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 3: the second generation becomes one hundred and so over time, 306 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 3: as more and more people black, white, and whatever are 307 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:22,400 Speaker 3: answering more and more questions correctly, the tests are renormed. 308 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 3: So having an IQ of one hundred in nineteen twenty 309 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 3: five is not the same thing as having an IQ 310 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,879 Speaker 3: of one hundred and nineteen thirty five or nineteen fifty. 311 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 2: And this is exactly what was going on. Yeah, people 312 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: of all different kinds were yes, and I'm smarter crudely. 313 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 3: But once Jim Flynn decided to go back to the 314 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,320 Speaker 3: raw data, not just take take take, to take the 315 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 3: IQs how many how many questions was this? And he 316 00:19:49,680 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: just discovers that the number of questions being answered correctly 317 00:19:53,400 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 3: was increasing by large amounts, roughly one statistical deviation from 318 00:20:01,920 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 3: from one generation to the next, which is big yes. 319 00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 3: And so the the number of questions that the Blacks 320 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: were answering, saying around two thousand and having an IQ 321 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 3: of eighty five would have been an IQ of one 322 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 3: hundred and four back in nineteen forty seven. And so 323 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 3: all this information was being ignored because they people took 324 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:31,680 Speaker 3: the IQ test as if that was the fixed number, 325 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,120 Speaker 3: fixed number of questions I answered correctly. 326 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:37,480 Speaker 2: And so you take the lid off that one. The 327 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 2: Flint effect. 328 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: Shows that the opposite was happening, that instead of the 329 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 3: national IQ going down, it was going up. 330 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,600 Speaker 2: It was going up. And so we have this fascinating 331 00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:52,320 Speaker 2: discovery that somehow or other, the conditions of modern life 332 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:58,240 Speaker 2: that requires more abstract things, somehow it's bringing in the 333 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:00,919 Speaker 2: whole group, right, the whole group rising, all right? 334 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 4: All right? 335 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: From the progressive position a century ago to the progressive 336 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:10,160 Speaker 2: position today. Racial assertions have ranged from the genetic determinism 337 00:21:10,240 --> 00:21:13,520 Speaker 2: that we just discussed, which proclaims that race is everything 338 00:21:13,640 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 2: as an explanation of group differences, to the opposite view 339 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 2: that racism is the primary explanation of group differences. Yes, 340 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 2: how did this happen? 341 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 3: Or it happened because a lot of people arrived at 342 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:35,160 Speaker 3: the same conclusion and they had IQ high IQ's and PhDs, 343 00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:37,320 Speaker 3: and that was the end of the story as well 344 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 3: as far I've many people were concerned, all right. I mean, 345 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 3: a high IQ and low information is a very dangerous combination. 346 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 2: I have to be sorry, but you once told me 347 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 2: I'm talking to a Harvard man. Of course, I'm very 348 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: conscious of this, and you once told me, Peter, the 349 00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 2: main advantage of earning a Harvard degree is that you 350 00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 2: never again and all your life to have to be 351 00:22:01,440 --> 00:22:07,119 Speaker 2: intimidated by anyone who has a Harvard degree. Listen, Tom, 352 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 2: for the most as I read this book. For the 353 00:22:09,119 --> 00:22:14,480 Speaker 2: most part, it's objective, it's objective throughout, it's calm, it's analytical. 354 00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 2: But when you take on this modern progressive position that 355 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:24,520 Speaker 2: racism accounts for anything, there are passages in which you're angry. 356 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:26,960 Speaker 2: I felt that there are passages in which there's a 357 00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 2: motion that is very close to this. So let me 358 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:32,200 Speaker 2: just read a little bit too. Median Black family income 359 00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:35,880 Speaker 2: has been lower than median white family income for generations, 360 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: but the median per capita income of Asian groups is 361 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: more than fifteen thousand a year higher than the media 362 00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: per capita income of white Americans. Is this the white 363 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 2: supremacy we're so often warned about. For more than a 364 00:22:51,600 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 2: quarter of a century, in no year has the annual 365 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 2: poverty rate of Black married couple families married couple families 366 00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: been as high as ten percent, And in no year 367 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 2: has the poverty rate of Americans as a whole been 368 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 2: as low as ten percent. If black poverty is caused 369 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,080 Speaker 2: by systemic racism. Do racists make an exception for blacks 370 00:23:14,080 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 2: who are married? I guess you're allowed to be angry? 371 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 4: Yes, well, yes, So. 372 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,359 Speaker 2: Do you have the feeling when you're addressing this notion 373 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 2: that racism accounts for everything? Do you have the feeling 374 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: that the arguments are subtle, it's persuasive, you can forgive 375 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 2: someone for buying that argument. Or do you have the 376 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,480 Speaker 2: feeling that it's wilful, that the case is so clearly 377 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:53,640 Speaker 2: mistaken that there's a wilfulness about it. 378 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:55,680 Speaker 4: No, I don't. 379 00:23:55,720 --> 00:24:00,080 Speaker 3: I think that people don't look for certain evidence and 380 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 3: therefore they don't find it, and so from from the 381 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 3: on the basis of what they know at a given time, 382 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 3: this may be very plausible. The problem is that you 383 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 3: don't What you really need are other people with a 384 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 3: different orientation, who who who are who are skeptical, and 385 00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:20,120 Speaker 3: who will then look for things and find things that are. 386 00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 4: Very different from that. 387 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:27,080 Speaker 3: One of the one of the things that I found 388 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:32,960 Speaker 3: interesting was the fact that there are various counties in 389 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 3: the United States which are among the poorest counties in 390 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 3: the in the country, and six of those counties have 391 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 3: a population that ranges from ninety percent white to one 392 00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 3: hundred percent. 393 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 2: White Appalachian counties Kentucky. Yeah, take in Ohio as they recall. 394 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and and but mainly it's it's it's it's the 395 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 3: hillbilly communities, right. And of course there was that great 396 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,640 Speaker 3: book that was written The Hillbilly Elergy was on the 397 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,000 Speaker 3: best for more than a year consecutively. And waits now, 398 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,760 Speaker 3: Senator Fans, Yes, and and and there these are people 399 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,719 Speaker 3: who have faced zero racism. They are white, and they're white, 400 00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: and and and zero racism. And also they're there. Back 401 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 3: in the thirties when they did i Q studies, UH, 402 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,400 Speaker 3: their i qs were not only at the same level 403 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,520 Speaker 3: as those of blacks, they had the same pattern, namely 404 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 3: that that that the young, the young people, whether they 405 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 3: were black or hillbilly, would have an i Q very 406 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,680 Speaker 3: close to the national average UH at age six, but 407 00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,359 Speaker 3: by the time they were teenagers, it kept going down 408 00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 3: and down and down because it's relative to the other 409 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,160 Speaker 3: other people of that age group, and they simply were 410 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 3: not worth falling behind. 411 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 4: UH. 412 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 3: So it was clearly not biologically, it was it was social. 413 00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 4: But UH. 414 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 3: Despite that, these these hillbilly counties had income incomes, they 415 00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 3: were not only lower than the national average. They were 416 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:05,359 Speaker 3: lower than the average of black incomes for a period 417 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,240 Speaker 3: of half a century. It may have been longer than that, 418 00:26:08,280 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 3: because I only went through half a century, but in 419 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 3: every study that was done over that half century, they 420 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 3: scored lower. Their family incomes were lower than the family 421 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 3: incomes the blacks. So obviously there must be other things 422 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 3: that cause people to be poor other than racism. 423 00:26:25,040 --> 00:26:29,879 Speaker 2: All right, people in low income American hillbilly counties already 424 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 2: face zero racism because they are virtually all white. Yes, yes, 425 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,919 Speaker 2: they have lower incomes than blacks, just as you were saying. 426 00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 2: In other words, some behavior patterns, yes, seem to pay off. Now, 427 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:49,679 Speaker 2: this book is dedicated to fallacies, to showing errors in 428 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,399 Speaker 2: premises and errors in analysis. It's not dedicated to an 429 00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 2: alternative explanation. Nevertheless, you've got this argument lurking in here 430 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 2: that it's the way people live, it's the way cultural tests. 431 00:27:03,640 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: So what are the patterns that pay off? 432 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 4: Well? 433 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 3: What, ah, my heavens, that's a much much larger book 434 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:12,000 Speaker 3: than those. 435 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: Well, you've got time on your hand. 436 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:22,400 Speaker 3: In terms of policies for public policy, what does not 437 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 3: pay off is having charismatic leaders depending upon government to 438 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 3: do things because if you look what has happened to 439 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: blacks before and after that, there was a massive government 440 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:41,640 Speaker 3: effort on their behalf the poverty rate among blacks if 441 00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 3: you start in nineteen forty instead of nineteen sixty, because 442 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,919 Speaker 3: nineteen sixty is the magic number for people who are 443 00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,359 Speaker 3: saying the governments he did all these wonderful things, and 444 00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 3: blacks advanced because of it. In nineteen forty, the black 445 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 3: poverty rate was eighty seven percent. By nineteen sixty it 446 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 3: was under forty seven percent. 447 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:02,600 Speaker 2: That's dramatic. 448 00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 3: From nineteen sixty or nineteen seventy, it went down in 449 00:28:06,760 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 3: US it went down to thirty percent, and in nineteen seventy, 450 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 3: affirmative action was now in place, it went down to 451 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: twenty nine percent. So the in the twenty years prior 452 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 3: to nineteen sixties, the black poverty rate. 453 00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 4: Went down by forty points. 454 00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,160 Speaker 3: In the twenty and in the twenty years after nineteen 455 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,199 Speaker 3: sixty it went down by eighteen points. But again you 456 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:34,920 Speaker 3: have the same thing you had with what was the 457 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,000 Speaker 3: Ralph Nader effect. 458 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,000 Speaker 2: You see started in nineteen sixty. You missed this, miss 459 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:42,160 Speaker 2: all of that. So you've got in this book this 460 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 2: is the point you make again and again in the 461 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 2: section on racial fallacies that I started thinking of it. 462 00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 2: I don't think you use these terms, but this is 463 00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: not an original thought with me. I started thinking of 464 00:28:55,120 --> 00:29:00,120 Speaker 2: it as a as a hidden century of black progress. Yes, 465 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 2: from emancipation, with the end of the Civil War through 466 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:10,440 Speaker 2: to nineteen sixty five, let's say, the Civil Rights Act 467 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 2: of nineteen sixty four, sixty five through the early through 468 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 2: the mid sixties. You've got a century, and you argue, 469 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: Black educational attainment rises, Black property rate drops dramatically, and 470 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 2: these are people who started with no property, overwhelmingly illiterate. 471 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 2: This is from the moment the sort of the year 472 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 2: zero in eighteen sixty five for African Americans, and they climb. 473 00:29:38,840 --> 00:29:41,320 Speaker 2: And the other point that you make at a number 474 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:46,200 Speaker 2: of places is that the black family is overwhelmingly intact. 475 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 3: Yes, right up to nineteen sixties, most black Yeah. Not 476 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,240 Speaker 3: only not only do people take credit for things that 477 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 3: were not they are doing, they overlook the negative things 478 00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 3: that came in after the nineteen sixties as a result 479 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 3: of policy. In nineteen forty seventeen percent of black children 480 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:11,240 Speaker 3: were raised. 481 00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 4: In single parent homes seventeen percent. 482 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 3: Seventeen at the end I forget the exact date. In 483 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 3: the twentieth century, but after these wonderful reforms were put in. 484 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 4: That quadrupled to sixty eight. 485 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 3: Percent of black children were being raised in single parent homes. 486 00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:33,760 Speaker 3: Now there's a whole literature on all the bad things 487 00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 3: that happened to kids who are raised by single parents, 488 00:30:36,760 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 3: whether they are black or white, American or British. The 489 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 3: studies showed the same things. One study said that followlessness 490 00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 3: has a bigger effect than even raised in poverty. And certainly, 491 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 3: I think back in my own life I was. I 492 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 3: realized how fortunate I was because even though my biological 493 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,280 Speaker 3: that died before I was born, I would and. 494 00:31:03,200 --> 00:31:04,280 Speaker 4: I was adopted. 495 00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:07,480 Speaker 3: I was adopted into a family where I was the 496 00:31:07,520 --> 00:31:10,920 Speaker 3: only child in a family of four adults. 497 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 2: Uh. 498 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,280 Speaker 3: And and these are not people who are out having 499 00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: an active social life, something that the life was there in. 500 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 2: The home they gave you the time. 501 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, And I remember years later when I became 502 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 3: a parent, and like other new parents, I wanted to 503 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 3: know when it was the kids supposed to do this, 504 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 3: when he's supposed to do that? But I said, I said, 505 00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 3: how old was I when I started to walk? 506 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:34,520 Speaker 4: And this the loan. 507 00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 3: Surviving member of the family of raised me, said, Tommy, 508 00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: And nobody knows when you could walk. Somebody was always 509 00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: carrying you, you know. 510 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 2: But so you had four adults donting. 511 00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yes, And that's that's what. 512 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,720 Speaker 3: And then part of the part of the rise of 513 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:56,040 Speaker 3: blacks before was because the things that were done by blacks, 514 00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,720 Speaker 3: I thought. Example, I think of a lot was a 515 00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 3: kid who grew up in Harlem at the same time 516 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 3: I did. We were in the same school, lived two 517 00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:13,160 Speaker 3: blocks from me, and we met many years later by 518 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,320 Speaker 3: accident on the street in San Francisco, and we talked 519 00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,800 Speaker 3: about the old times. And one of the things he 520 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,720 Speaker 3: mentioned to me because he had gone on he was 521 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 3: making more money than I was, and he would become wealthy, 522 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:25,000 Speaker 3: and he. 523 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 4: Lived overseas with servants. 524 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:28,760 Speaker 3: And he came back and moved out to the wine 525 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,000 Speaker 3: country and all that stuff. But one of the things 526 00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 3: that struck me he said that he could remember times 527 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 3: when he was growing up when his father would sit 528 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 3: at the dinner table watching the children eat and not 529 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 3: eat anything himself. Now it's not that's what. 530 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 2: And now the father isn't even there. 531 00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:52,840 Speaker 3: Yes, that's right, that's right. So that those kinds of 532 00:32:52,840 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 3: things of what do it right? 533 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 2: Social justice fallacies. The Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty 534 00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 2: four was a major factor in ending the denial of 535 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 2: basic constitutional rights to blacks in the South, but there 536 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:10,520 Speaker 2: is no point trying to make that the main source 537 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 2: of the black rise out of poverty. Nor can the 538 00:33:13,720 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 2: left act as if the Civil Rights Act of nineteen 539 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 2: sixty four was solely their work. A higher percentage of 540 00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 2: Republicans than Democrats voted for the act. Close quote. So 541 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 2: this is this you're saying something here which is. 542 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 4: Fact. It is. 543 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: It's shocking, it's heretical. You're saying, well, you're saying the 544 00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:39,640 Speaker 2: Civil Rights Act insured equality before the law, that was overdue, 545 00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 2: it was necessary, it was just that's an accomplishment in 546 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,760 Speaker 2: American history. But at about the same time we get 547 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,640 Speaker 2: the creation of a vast expansion of the welfare state, 548 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 2: and it does people harm. It harms the African American family. 549 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 2: It needs to fatherless. Have I got your argument right? 550 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 2: And you want to stand by that? 551 00:34:05,520 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 4: Yeah? 552 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 3: And the other thing too, The Civil Rights Act was 553 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 3: not what got blacks into professional occupations in the decade 554 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:19,560 Speaker 3: prior to the nineteen sixty four The number of blacks 555 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: and professional occupations doubles. So this is not the result 556 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 3: of the Civil Rights Act of nineteen sixty four. 557 00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 2: All right, Tom, a few closing questions here. First of all, 558 00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 2: may I read to you. This is a note to 559 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 2: readers from the New York Times. In twenty twenty, the 560 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 2: nationwide protests over racism and police violence have prompted a 561 00:34:46,600 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 2: renewed focus on a longstanding debate whether to capitalize the 562 00:34:51,680 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 2: term black. We here at the New York Times have 563 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:58,400 Speaker 2: talked to more than one hundred staff members. The feedback 564 00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:01,440 Speaker 2: has been thoughtful and nuanced. Lot full of nuanced, mind you, 565 00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:04,560 Speaker 2: And we've just started to We've decided to start using 566 00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,760 Speaker 2: uppercase black to describe people and cultures of African origin. 567 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,960 Speaker 2: Close quote. The New York Times capitalizes black, but you don't, 568 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:18,840 Speaker 2: Tom Soul, How dare you engage in this active defense? 569 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:20,840 Speaker 4: Oh? 570 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 3: It is amazing the things that people can can focus on. 571 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,319 Speaker 3: It may seem to be a big issue in the 572 00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,319 Speaker 3: New York Times. I suspected the people who are being 573 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 3: murdered in these big cities like New York and Chicago 574 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,440 Speaker 3: may have a somewhat different view of the importance of 575 00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 3: what is capitalized and not capitalized. 576 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:46,880 Speaker 2: Tom, let me read a few single sentences from Social 577 00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,839 Speaker 2: justice Fallacies. I'll read a sentence. You tell us what 578 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,800 Speaker 2: you meant. Stupid people can create problems, but it often 579 00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,440 Speaker 2: takes brilliant people to create a real catastrophe. 580 00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:03,799 Speaker 3: That so, my gosh, think of the catastrophes of the 581 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 3: twentieth century. You mentioned the genetic determinives. They drew the 582 00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 3: conclusions from their reasoning that you had to put an 583 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 3: end to certain races because they had what they call eugenics, 584 00:36:19,719 --> 00:36:23,880 Speaker 3: but what was later called genocide. And so that idea 585 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 3: originated with the progressors. And there was a progressive who 586 00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 3: wrote a book with that theme, which was translated into German, 587 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 3: and Hitler called it his bible. 588 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 2: And so this holocaust, you draw a line from the 589 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: progressive eugenicists to Adolf Hitler. 590 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,320 Speaker 4: He drew the line. 591 00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 3: He drew the line and wrote a letter of a 592 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 3: fan mail letter to the author of that book and 593 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,680 Speaker 3: saying that that book was his bible. And we see 594 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:55,880 Speaker 3: what that led to. During the nineteen twenties, in reaction 595 00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 3: to World War One, which was sowhat so bad, the 596 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:02,880 Speaker 3: idea arose the intellectual elites that the way to prevent 597 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,879 Speaker 3: war was to stop was to stop arming. You see, 598 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:11,960 Speaker 3: you saw, disarmament was the avoid a war. No evidence 599 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 3: made the slightest impression on them, and they blundered the 600 00:37:17,520 --> 00:37:20,640 Speaker 3: West into a war that probably would never have happened 601 00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 3: because the totalitarian dictatorships the start of that war were 602 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 3: well aware that the United States, Britain and friends had 603 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,759 Speaker 3: an industrial capacity greater than theirs. And you know, you 604 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 3: wouldn't ordinarily attack countries that have greater industrial capacity than 605 00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:42,839 Speaker 3: yours unless you thought that they were gutless and were 606 00:37:42,880 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 3: foolish enough not to remain armed. And for three years 607 00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:51,120 Speaker 3: of that war, their access powers won every single battle. 608 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,920 Speaker 3: The Western democracies lost in Europe and Asia wherever they fought. 609 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,440 Speaker 3: In nineteen forty two, Winston Tracils had made a speech 610 00:38:02,480 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 3: and he said, we have a new experience. 611 00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:06,560 Speaker 4: We have victory. 612 00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,840 Speaker 3: And when they won that victory in l Alamine in 613 00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,200 Speaker 3: Northern Africa, that was the first battle won by the 614 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:17,080 Speaker 3: Western democracies in a war that it was already three 615 00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 3: years old. And from that point on, especially when the 616 00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,200 Speaker 3: United States came in and the American productive capacity was mobilized, 617 00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:28,800 Speaker 3: and then it turned around today, people who are trying 618 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:31,200 Speaker 3: to say say, we need to disarm in order to 619 00:38:31,239 --> 00:38:35,439 Speaker 3: have you know, peace, don't understand the nuclear age. You're 620 00:38:35,440 --> 00:38:37,719 Speaker 3: not going to get three years to figure out what's 621 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:41,799 Speaker 3: going on. You're either going to be ready on the 622 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 3: first day of that war or you got gonna lose it. 623 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 2: In politics, the goal is not truth but votes. 624 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 4: Absolutely. 625 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 2: And why does that matter? 626 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 4: Oh, it. 627 00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 3: Matters because if you can get peace to believe that 628 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 3: their problems are all due. 629 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,360 Speaker 4: To racist you will get their votes. 630 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,880 Speaker 3: But if you say, but if you look at a 631 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,520 Speaker 3: lot of data on different things, you discovered that's not 632 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:15,840 Speaker 3: the taste. It's very doubtful if all the races in 633 00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 3: the country today have half the negative effect on blacks 634 00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:24,200 Speaker 3: as the teachers unions have, because the teachers unions keep 635 00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:30,319 Speaker 3: the schools lousing in areas where the people who send 636 00:39:30,360 --> 00:39:33,160 Speaker 3: their kids to school do not have the option to 637 00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 3: send them to a private school if the schools are bad. 638 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 2: You make the point that in Harlem there are charter 639 00:39:39,440 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 2: schools that rent space in public schools and there are tests. Well, 640 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: go ahead, do you know what I'm referring to you? Yes? 641 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:52,040 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, In fact, that there's a school I thought 642 00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:55,440 Speaker 3: the way to figure out that the difference between the 643 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,120 Speaker 3: public school and the charter schools really public schools and 644 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,000 Speaker 3: the charter schools is to compare of them in the 645 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,880 Speaker 3: same build when they're when both schools are located in 646 00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 3: the same buildings, so you have comparability. It's the same group, neighborhood, 647 00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:12,560 Speaker 3: same building, yet so everything uh uh. And when you 648 00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:19,040 Speaker 3: do that, what I found was that the charter school 649 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 3: kids and these low income black neighborhoods past the math 650 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:26,680 Speaker 3: test at a rate more than six times as high 651 00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 3: as that of the public school located in the very 652 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:30,280 Speaker 3: same building. 653 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 2: And the main difference between the charter school and the 654 00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,319 Speaker 2: public school. 655 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 3: Is the public school is run by the teachers' unions. 656 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 3: The charter schools do not have have unions at all 657 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,800 Speaker 3: in most cases. One of the most extreme examples was 658 00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 3: the school that I went to when I was in Harlem, 659 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 3: and in that particular school, only seven percent of the 660 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 3: regular public school kids passed the math test. In the 661 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:03,280 Speaker 3: charter school one hundred percent pasted it that they proficient. 662 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 3: They have different levels. Proficient means you've passed, and there's 663 00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,759 Speaker 3: a level above that when you've done more than what 664 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,360 Speaker 3: is necessary for that or in that particular school. Only 665 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,799 Speaker 3: two percent of the charter school kids scored as low 666 00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:20,080 Speaker 3: as proficient. The other ninety eight percent we're in the 667 00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,680 Speaker 3: top bracket above proficient. 668 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 2: Last question here less quotation to one of many things 669 00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:34,919 Speaker 2: that no individual, no institution, and no society has any 670 00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,240 Speaker 2: control over is the past. 671 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:38,120 Speaker 4: Yes. 672 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 2: Why does that matter? 673 00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:46,439 Speaker 3: Because when we talk about groups and we talk about 674 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:50,239 Speaker 3: their environment, we usually mean their tangible current surroundings. 675 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,240 Speaker 4: But of course all the groups have had different paths. 676 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 3: When the when the Irish, the Jews, and the Italian 677 00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 3: immigrants were coming to America, Uh, it was common for 678 00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:06,759 Speaker 3: Irish for Italian and Jewish neighborhoods on New York's Lower 679 00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:12,759 Speaker 3: East Side to be represented by Irish politicians. Why is 680 00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 3: that because if you look at what happened before they 681 00:42:15,920 --> 00:42:18,760 Speaker 3: ever got to America, you can see that the Irish 682 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 3: had reasons to organize in a political kind of way. 683 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,400 Speaker 3: The Jews and the Italians did not. Their circumstances, it 684 00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 3: wouldn't have made any difference. And now when they get 685 00:42:27,760 --> 00:42:29,880 Speaker 3: to New York they were they may be living in 686 00:42:29,920 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 3: the same neighborhoods and so forth, and the tangible surroundings 687 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:34,799 Speaker 3: are the same, but the whole past of. 688 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:36,480 Speaker 4: The three groups is very different. 689 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 3: And even when it's the Italians and the Jews rise 690 00:42:40,040 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 3: at the prosperity, it's in different industries, it's in different occupations, and. 691 00:42:46,600 --> 00:42:49,440 Speaker 2: The past means that we should never expect groups to 692 00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 2: end up evenly distributed across the past. 693 00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:55,759 Speaker 3: But even such a thing as age, people don't realize 694 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,120 Speaker 3: some American ethnic groups are a decade older than others, 695 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:01,920 Speaker 3: and some are more more than two decades older than others. 696 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 3: So the Japanese, the difference between blacks and white is 697 00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,320 Speaker 3: not the largest. The difference in the country. The Japanese 698 00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:13,200 Speaker 3: Americans have are well higher than the Mexican Americans by 699 00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 3: even larger amounts. Japanese Americans have a median age of 700 00:43:17,120 --> 00:43:21,440 Speaker 3: fifty two. Mexican Americans held it somewhere in the twenties. 701 00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,279 Speaker 3: Fifty two year old people make more money than twenty 702 00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:25,000 Speaker 3: year old people. 703 00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 2: Tom, would you close our discussion by reading a passage 704 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:37,560 Speaker 2: from social justice fallacies? 705 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:39,000 Speaker 4: Well, if I. 706 00:43:38,960 --> 00:43:43,480 Speaker 3: Still still agree with it, do we want the mixture 707 00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:45,759 Speaker 3: of students who are going to be trained to do 708 00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:50,560 Speaker 3: advanced medical research to be representative of the demographic makeup 709 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,480 Speaker 3: of the population as a whole, or do we want 710 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 3: students with the highest probability of finding cures for cancer 711 00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:05,759 Speaker 3: and Alzheimer's. Do you want airline pilots chosen for demographic 712 00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:09,479 Speaker 3: representation of various groups, or would you prefer to fly 713 00:44:09,560 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 3: with pilots who are chosen for their mastery of all 714 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:17,640 Speaker 3: the complex things that increase your chances of arriving safely 715 00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:23,319 Speaker 3: at your destination. Consequences matter or should matter, more than 716 00:44:23,400 --> 00:44:29,200 Speaker 3: some attractive or fashionable theory. More fundamentally, do we want 717 00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:31,880 Speaker 3: a society in which some babies are born into the 718 00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,439 Speaker 3: world as heirs of prepackaged grievances against other babies born 719 00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:41,680 Speaker 3: the same day, blighting both their lives, or do we 720 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,919 Speaker 3: want to at least leave them the option to work 721 00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,280 Speaker 3: things out better in their lives than we have in ours. 722 00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:54,680 Speaker 2: Thomas Saw author of some forty books, including Social Justice Fallacies, 723 00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 2: Thank You, Thank You for Uncommon Knowledge, The Hoover Institution, 724 00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,320 Speaker 2: and Fox Nation. I'm Peter Robinson. 725 00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,400 Speaker 1: If you like the Michael Berry Show and podcast, please 726 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 1: tell one friend, and if you're so inclined, write a 727 00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:15,920 Speaker 1: nice review of our podcast. Comments, suggestions, questions, and interest 728 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:19,879 Speaker 1: in being a corporate sponsor and partner can be communicated 729 00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,399 Speaker 1: directly to the show at our email address, Michael at 730 00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:28,319 Speaker 1: Michael Berryshow dot com, or simply by clicking on our 731 00:45:28,360 --> 00:45:33,160 Speaker 1: website Michael Berryshow dot com. The Michael Berry Show and 732 00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: Podcast is produced by Ramon Roebliss, The King of Ding. 733 00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 1: Executive producer is Chad Nakanishi. 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Finally, 741 00:46:27,200 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 1: if you know a veteran suffering from PTSD, call Camp 742 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:36,880 Speaker 1: Hope at eight seven seven seven one seven PTSD and 743 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,280 Speaker 1: a combat veteran will answer the phone to provide free counseling.