WEBVTT - The Haves and Have Nots 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:15.480 Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 0:00:15.560 --> 0:00:21.079 me your girl Danielle Moody recording from the home bunker. Folks, 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:27.880 I'm excited for today's guest because I gotta tell you, 0:00:27.880 --> 0:00:31.520 you know, I interview authors all the time. I hope 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.959 that many of you are like me, with your Amazon 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.720 carts or local bookstore carts consistently filled with the people 0:00:38.760 --> 0:00:42.720 that I bring on to WOKF. Today's guest I think 0:00:43.000 --> 0:00:45.960 wins right now in terms of the titles that I've heard. 0:00:46.040 --> 0:00:50.560 As of late, Joan Walsh, along with her co authors 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:56.720 Nick Hanoer and Donald Cohen, put out the book Corporate Bullshit, 0:00:57.400 --> 0:01:01.520 exposing the lies and half truths that protect profit, power 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:07.240 and wealth in America. It is a book that is 0:01:07.600 --> 0:01:11.800 not like your normal dry academic reads let me bring 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:16.480 you through history. But it is funny, it is entertaining, 0:01:17.000 --> 0:01:21.160 it is thoughtful, and what it offers for where we 0:01:21.319 --> 0:01:24.640 find ourselves right now, at a time when we have 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:31.720 witnessed multiple industries go on strike push back against corporate 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:36.280 overlords who want the ability to be able to buy 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.240 their fifth sixth home and their fucking rockets to go 0:01:39.280 --> 0:01:43.240 to outer space, but not provide a living wage, healthcare, 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:49.880 or any decent benefits for workers. And what we've seen 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:54.600 in particularly over the last three years with COVID is 0:01:54.800 --> 0:02:00.640 this assertion and this realignment of people recognizing that workers 0:02:03.320 --> 0:02:08.880 truly do have power when we work in community with 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:16.520 one another. That frankly, where our society finds itself is 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:21.760 that the chasm between the haves and the have nots 0:02:22.520 --> 0:02:29.919 has grown so fucking large that even the illusion that 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:33.280 folks who still have the ability to call themselves middle 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.320 class or dare I say upper middle class, believe that 0:02:37.400 --> 0:02:42.880 they were just one side hustle, one gig, one a 0:02:42.919 --> 0:02:46.840 lottery ticket away from being wealthy, recognize that they are 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.720 generations away from the kind of wealth that we have 0:02:50.800 --> 0:02:55.560 seen accumulated over the last few years and consolidated by 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:59.399 just a small handful of people. And so in this 0:02:59.480 --> 0:03:04.639 book Corporate Bullshit, and in my conversation with Joan, we 0:03:04.880 --> 0:03:08.560 get into some of the history that we have known, 0:03:09.320 --> 0:03:13.639 things that we have understood over the past few years, 0:03:14.320 --> 0:03:18.640 and whether or not we believe that this space that 0:03:18.680 --> 0:03:22.600 we are in is just another moment or is it 0:03:22.760 --> 0:03:28.760 really the worker's movement right This idea that we're not 0:03:28.800 --> 0:03:31.080 going to continue to fall for the lie and the 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.560 ropodope that, oh, if we were as wealthy as these 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:40.080 billionaire shareholders and CEOs, that we too will continue to 0:03:40.160 --> 0:03:42.720 vote against our best interest because we just might make 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.920 it there one day. We ain't making it there. That's 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:48.920 the joke, that's the punchline. And so what are we 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:54.080 doing collectively to create a better society that sees the 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:59.440 full humanity of workers and understands that the bridge between 0:04:00.120 --> 0:04:04.080 the overlord and the worker should not be so fucking 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:09.480 long and so big and so deep. So coming up next, 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.840 my conversation with one of the authors of Corporate Bullshit, 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:19.680 Exposing the lies and half truths that protect profit power 0:04:19.839 --> 0:04:27.120 and wealth in America, Joan Walsh. Folks, I am very 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:30.360 excited to welcome to OKF Daily four, I believe the 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:33.960 very first time Joan Walsh, who is the National Affairs 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.919 correspondent for the Nation, the co producer of the Emmy 0:04:36.960 --> 0:04:41.360 nominated documentary The Sit In. Harry Belafonte, hosts The Tonight Show, 0:04:41.760 --> 0:04:44.880 and author of What's the Matter with White People? And 0:04:45.400 --> 0:04:50.160 co author of the new book Corporate Bullshit, Exposing the 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:54.320 lies and half truths that protect profit power and wealth 0:04:54.480 --> 0:05:01.960 in America. Joan. First off, love the title. I love 0:05:02.120 --> 0:05:08.760 the title of the book because you know, I find 0:05:08.880 --> 0:05:13.480 that it drives me crazy. I will say this, it 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:21.160 drives me crazy when people workers defend corporations, defend the 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:24.920 lies that have been told around the reasons why we 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:28.279 all needed to sit inside of cubicles and offices for 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.200 nine to ten hours a day until lo and behold, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.080 there's a global health pandemic and we can't make it 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:37.080 into work, and we can't go to school, and lo 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:40.000 and behold, we figure out a way to adapt, a 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.800 way that is actually human centered and not profit centered. 0:05:44.480 --> 0:05:48.919 And then when that pandemic is you know, under control, 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.920 and I use quotation marks with that, with a vaccine, 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.120 it's we got to go back to the offices because 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:58.800 of what exactly. No one's profits have declined. As a 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:01.960 matter of fact, the see CEOs and shareholders of major 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:08.719 corporations got wealthier, right, But oh, there's another game at play, 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.960 which is corporate real estate and the amount of money 0:06:12.040 --> 0:06:15.839 that they've paid for these places. And so everything that 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:18.120 I realize in your book airs out. And I just 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:22.200 want to start off with this question, which is why 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:25.839 do we fall for the lives why do Why are 0:06:25.880 --> 0:06:31.320 they so able to manipulate us out of our human 0:06:31.520 --> 0:06:35.960 centered ideas of how we should work versus how they 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:36.799 want us to work. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.960 I think because they've been perfecting these lies for you know, 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.159 literally centuries. You know, our book starts with a lot 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:50.479 of the early quotations about slavery, defending slavery something that 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:55.599 is kind of back in vogue, and that they whether 0:06:55.720 --> 0:07:04.320 it's slave owners, landowners, corporate owners today, they managed to 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.840 convince us that their self interest is in our self interest, 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:10.480 that they have our best interests at heart. So you 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:14.720 are you know, you know, our history of oh, slavery 0:07:14.840 --> 0:07:17.840 was just very good for the slaves. Slaves are happy, 0:07:17.920 --> 0:07:22.040 they're healthy, they're well fed. This is a good thing 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:26.120 for these people who have been given religion and you know, 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:29.360 pretending that people didn't have it before and all of that. 0:07:29.480 --> 0:07:32.320 I mean that in some ways is the most disgusting 0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:35.760 and the most obvious, although it's being recycled, so maybe 0:07:35.800 --> 0:07:41.240 it could still work. And I think, you know, one 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:46.840 of the big issues we discuss in the book is 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:51.640 that they've managed to convince so many workers that if 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.080 they want to help us, they do, they really do. 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.920 But you know, their profits would decline, they go out 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.400 of business, and then we wouldn't even have the jobs 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.200 we're complaining about, whether we're striking, union organizing, asking for 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:07.960 you know, wage increases, as individuals asking for family leave. 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.000 They'd like to do it. But you know, if you 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.480 think your job is a problem, now wait till you 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.560 don't have a job. And that comes out again and 0:08:15.600 --> 0:08:18.880 again in different kinds of iterations, and so I think 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.280 that's that's the main thing that they've been They've been 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:26.560 honing this set of lies around so many issues for 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:31.360 hundreds of years, and working people catch up and you know, 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:35.000 combat them, but then they have to face it in 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.960 a different form or in a different in a different context. 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.920 We chose to organize the book around the specific types 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.840 of lies, the categories of lies, rather than okay, here's 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.080 a chapter about climate change, or here's a chapter about 0:08:50.679 --> 0:08:54.200 the minimum wage, or here's medicare We have those examples 0:08:54.240 --> 0:08:56.960 throughout the book, and we have some case studies that 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:01.719 are specifically about those issue choose, But we thought it 0:09:01.840 --> 0:09:05.200 was more effective to just show you how this is 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:08.480 their playbook and they can adapt this set of arguments 0:09:08.720 --> 0:09:13.680 to virtually everything, and they're shameless and so you know, 0:09:13.720 --> 0:09:16.440 it's a kind of a handbook for fighting back. It's 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.040 a kind of you know, one of our one of 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:26.079 our reviewer called it kind of an inoculation, you know, vaccines. 0:09:26.160 --> 0:09:30.240 This is kind of a vaccine, potentially a vaccine against lies. 0:09:31.880 --> 0:09:34.280 And you know, I also want to add that it's 0:09:35.120 --> 0:09:38.920 a fun read. Like we really we emphasize the quotes, 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:42.640 the cartoons, the headlines. It's not a thick tome of 0:09:42.800 --> 0:09:46.360 oh you know, oh no, oh my god. It's something 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.120 you can dip into and out of and uh as 0:09:50.160 --> 0:09:52.720 you want to. You can sit there and read it through, 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.520 but you can also go to your issues or to 0:09:56.320 --> 0:09:59.160 what intrigues you. And we thought it was important that 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:01.520 it be like that to kind of get it out 0:10:01.559 --> 0:10:04.560 of the hands of academics. God bless our academics, right, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:08.479 but you know, make it something that a union organizer 0:10:08.679 --> 0:10:11.840 or you know, or a nurse or a childcare worker 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.160 or you know, somebody working on the hill in city 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:17.240 hall can get their hands on it and get their 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:20.600 minds around and be you know, smarter and more effective 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:21.680 of fighting back. 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:27.520 Dig into some of the lies that the book is 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:33.240 organized around. For us, because I think that to your point, 0:10:34.080 --> 0:10:40.239 the way in which corporate America has been able to adapt, 0:10:40.600 --> 0:10:46.320 regardless of the century, regardless of what is at play, 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:49.680 that they are utilizing the same playbook, but they just 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:53.360 iterate on it, right, And so you know what struck 0:10:53.400 --> 0:10:55.679 me before you get into that, what struck me at 0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:58.920 the beginning was when you said, you know, these are 0:10:58.920 --> 0:11:02.880 the justificate. It's a same justifications that they made for slavery. 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:09.280 When your idea of work comes out of being able 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:13.920 to have power over people, being able to press them 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.760 literally until their breaking points, and that be the formation 0:11:19.160 --> 0:11:23.440 of your understanding around work and value, it's no wonder 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:26.920 why we find ourselves centuries later in the place that 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:30.800 we are, where you still have corporate overlords trying to 0:11:30.960 --> 0:11:34.320 get trying to best themselves back to a place of 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:36.000 free labor, right. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:40.000 As close as close as possible, to free labor, to 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.000 labor without any rights to labor, without any protections, any 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.120 health protections, all the while insisting that you know, the 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.559 workers are really are really, actually happy and they're doing well. 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.160 And so yeah, the set of lies, you know, it 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.720 starts with it's not a problem, you know, it's just 0:11:57.840 --> 0:12:01.960 it's it's not a problem. Coal mining accidents are just 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:04.839 part of nature, you know, it's it's it's a law 0:12:04.880 --> 0:12:10.280 of nature. Uh. And you know cigarettes are not addictive. Uh, 0:12:11.040 --> 0:12:13.520 Nicotine is not a problem. There's no such thing as 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:17.120 global warming and that and climate change. So you know 0:12:17.240 --> 0:12:20.040 that goes on to this day. Right, we're told that 0:12:20.160 --> 0:12:22.600 so many things that we identify as problems or problems, 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.160 and then they you know, they flip if they really 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.880 have to admit it's a problem. One of their really 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:34.360 devilish and devious adjustments is, Okay, it's a problem, but 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:38.040 it's not our fault. It's your fault. So okay, there 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:42.760 are actually coal mining accidents, unfortunately, but it's because the 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:47.960 workers are careless, uh and stupid. The workers won't wear 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:54.520 protective gear in chemical factories. Uh. They they take chances, 0:12:54.559 --> 0:12:57.840 they come to they come to work drunk. You know, 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.480 we don't need seat belts, we need care careful drivers. 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:06.160 You know, car accidents are caused by bad, lazy drivers. 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:09.360 And there's nothing you can't legislate that, you know, out 0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:13.199 of the landscape. And so you know, they're so good 0:13:13.480 --> 0:13:15.840 at blaming us. And there's I think there's something in 0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.520 our psyches. You know that we've sort of many of 0:13:19.559 --> 0:13:21.800 us have been working on in different ways personally and 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:25.880 collectively that it's easy to get ourselves to blame ourselves, 0:13:26.080 --> 0:13:27.560 you know, at least for a time like that can 0:13:27.600 --> 0:13:30.320 be a phase of your development. Oh you know, really, 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:32.920 I guess I really shouldn't have done X, Y or 0:13:33.040 --> 0:13:36.079 Z on the job. I cause that no, you do, 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.480 you know you didn't. And this is what they do. 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.160 And they have, you know, teams of management consultants to 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:46.200 tell them that, so you know, it's it's your fault 0:13:46.720 --> 0:13:50.280 so we can't protect you. Then it's like, well, we'd 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.800 like to protect you, but somehow we would only make 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:57.760 things worse. And that is you know, that can range 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.840 from uh, we talked about already, the you know, job 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:07.240 killing nature of regulation that you know, that's one example. 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:11.679 But you know, also I think one of the most 0:14:11.760 --> 0:14:16.800 formative lies like this to me was when Ronald Reagan 0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:20.080 said the federal government fought a war on poverty and 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:24.360 poverty won. Well, that's a lie, it didn't. But by 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:30.640 sounding like he really cared about poor people and he 0:14:30.720 --> 0:14:33.760 really would want to help them if he could, I 0:14:33.760 --> 0:14:35.680 think it was like sort of the new Reagan, because 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:38.920 the old Reagan. The original Reagan was all about blaming 0:14:39.080 --> 0:14:42.200 poor people, blaming black people, a lot of rational beyond 0:14:42.240 --> 0:14:46.680 dog whistling, you know, welfare queens, et cetera. But then 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.480 the Reagan who got elected in nineteen eighty was kind 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:52.640 of a he was a more genial Reagan, and now 0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:57.720 he really cared about poverty, except those bureaucrats, you know, 0:14:57.800 --> 0:15:03.360 they broke up families u welfare cause quote illegitimacy. Although 0:15:03.360 --> 0:15:07.040 when we cut when we dramatically cut back welfare, we 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.960 still have the same rates of you know, single parent 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:13.200 households that we had back in you know, when welfare 0:15:13.240 --> 0:15:17.800 reformed passed under Democrats under Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety six. 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:22.280 All of these cultural explanations have turned out to be bullshit. 0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:30.200 But learning how to couch your self interest, your corporate donors, 0:15:30.440 --> 0:15:34.240 self interest in the case of politician as we're really 0:15:34.280 --> 0:15:36.560 looking out for other people. But this is the best 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.520 way to do it. That's been profound and you can 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:41.680 you see that kind of thing to this day. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:44.480 You know. One of the things that stick out to 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.400 me too in the ways that we have as a 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:55.120 society allowed the bullshit to prevail, is this idea that 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.720 because I had to deal with it. You should too. 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.320 I think about the difference in terms of how this 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:06.120 is the first time I think in work life where 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.960 you have a multitude of generations in the workforce at 0:16:09.960 --> 0:16:13.680 the same time. The Boomers are there, gen X is there, 0:16:13.880 --> 0:16:16.960 Millennials are there, and now you have gen Z all 0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.960 working at the same time and in the same space. 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:22.880 Right, because we can't afford to retire. 0:16:22.680 --> 0:16:26.120 Because you all can't afford to retire, and. 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:29.000 Well for ourselves compared compared to other generations. But it's 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:30.680 still kind of hard anyway. 0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:36.520 And but the reality is that you have this generational 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:42.320 divide where gen Z and millennials are saying, we don't 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:46.040 want to take workplace abuse. That isn't a that isn't 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:48.160 par for the course for you to be able to 0:16:48.240 --> 0:16:51.720 email me at ten pm and expect, you know, me 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:55.120 to be on call all the time. Right that this 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:58.840 type of you need to put the company, the firm, 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:01.280 the business, the school, this, that and the other thing 0:17:01.360 --> 0:17:05.800 before your own needs, right, is just par for the course. 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:08.840 The abuse that you would take from bosses and what 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:12.720 have you. Is that that's what you do, right, That's 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.919 called being a grown up. And yet you have this 0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:19.320 younger generation and I look at really gen Z because 0:17:19.320 --> 0:17:22.960 millennials are forty now, But you have this younger generation 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:27.200 that is just like, wait a minute, actually no, I'll 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:31.280 just not do that job. I'll just quit right because 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:36.800 I'm never gonna have what is considered the the I 0:17:36.840 --> 0:17:40.120 guess the accoutrements that come with success. I'm not gonna 0:17:40.119 --> 0:17:42.119 own a home. I can't afford it. You see mortgage 0:17:42.200 --> 0:17:44.119 rates right, like, I'm not. 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:44.440 I don't. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:46.239 I'm not gonna own a car because I'm gonna live 0:17:46.240 --> 0:17:48.040 in a city, So I'm not gonna have that either. 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.760 So the trappings, and I'm not gonna get married, right 0:17:51.840 --> 0:17:54.800 because I see no benefit. I'd see no real benefit. 0:17:55.240 --> 0:17:59.439 Everybody's everybody's divorce rates are high. So the trappings that 0:17:59.560 --> 0:18:02.520 used to keep people in these jobs, right, and my 0:18:02.560 --> 0:18:07.920 healthcare is shit anyway, right right, So are no longer there. 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:12.440 But you see older generations kind of scoffing at Oh, well, 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:16.800 they're just lazy in my generation, we you know, so 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.760 how like that's that is also Joan, right, a part 0:18:20.800 --> 0:18:25.919 of the lie that we then regurgitate to ourselves and 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:30.320 to younger generations. Because I endured you should have to too. 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:36.879 Yeah, I think that, you know, especially for boomers. And 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:41.639 when you see that to some extent, it's it's a 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:46.720 two edged sword, because comparatively, boomers are doing well. We 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.639 were the last generation that college was affordable. You know, 0:18:51.080 --> 0:18:54.040 more of us were able to buy homes, We didn't 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:57.840 graduate with a ton of student debt. To the extent 0:18:57.880 --> 0:19:00.119 that the system worked for us, then it's just like, 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:04.640 why don't you little whiners buckle down and it'll work 0:19:04.680 --> 0:19:10.360 for you. Now, that's just patently untrue. We've seen it. 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:14.000 We've seen that real wages have declined. We've seen that 0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:17.959 purchasing power has declined. Home prices of sword, rent prices 0:19:18.000 --> 0:19:21.880 of sword, all the things that were in some ways subsidized, 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:26.240 like college as well as home ownership, all of that 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.280 has either disappeared or dried up or retracted. And so 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:35.680 the building blocks or the ladders of opportunity that really 0:19:35.920 --> 0:19:38.480 in the forties and fifties, in the post war period 0:19:38.520 --> 0:19:45.000 into the sixties really sort of consciously privileged labor over capital, 0:19:45.400 --> 0:19:50.280 really gave unions and workers generally more rights, really did 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.720 subsidize the building of homes, et cetera, et cetera. All 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:57.639 of that post war apparatus was like, it was a 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:01.840 structure of opportunity, and it literally built high tax rates, 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:05.120 built the middle class as we have come to know it, 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:08.520 and which has been in trouble since the you know, 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:14.240 mainly Republican corporate backlash of the nineteen seventies. And you know, 0:20:14.280 --> 0:20:17.480 we can track the you know, the decline in wages 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:22.160 and the decline in top tax rates, et cetera, and 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:24.840 the decline in the middle class. So I think it's 0:20:24.920 --> 0:20:28.040 that people who've kind of made it think, well, the 0:20:28.119 --> 0:20:32.879 same you know, effort will work for everybody that's part 0:20:32.880 --> 0:20:36.680 of it. And then I think, you know, you said 0:20:36.720 --> 0:20:40.680 something that struck me before about the pandemic was such 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:47.960 an interesting, horrible but it's socially interesting experiment because I, 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:51.040 you know, am kind of an optimist, because you'd have 0:20:51.119 --> 0:20:53.359 to be to doing this to do this work this long, 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:58.320 you know, And I remember feeling in my fear and 0:20:58.320 --> 0:21:02.359 my grief that well, hey, maybe we're seeing that, Wow, 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:06.560 we're all in this together. The fact the health inequities 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:11.240 that we have perpetrated on you know, low income, working class, 0:21:11.520 --> 0:21:16.159 poor people of color are now having ripples that are 0:21:16.200 --> 0:21:20.000 affecting all of us. We can turn society in a 0:21:20.000 --> 0:21:22.960 way on a dime. We can all. I can't say all, 0:21:23.200 --> 0:21:26.439 but many of us can work at home. I remember 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:32.800 thinking we would have vastly greater both empathy for each other, 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:36.640 for healthcare workers, you know, banging the pots and pans, 0:21:37.320 --> 0:21:41.960 would would give way to better wages for people especially 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:47.159 at the bottom, the essential workers, people in body bags, 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:49.439 as well as holding their hands when they died, we 0:21:49.480 --> 0:21:53.800 would we would understand that they really were doing God's 0:21:53.880 --> 0:21:56.600 work and give them a living wage. All these things 0:21:56.600 --> 0:21:59.200 that I thought, And that also we could remake the workplace. 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:02.520 And you know, whether you're a student, whether you have 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:06.440 whether your mom or dad, whether you're a middle aged 0:22:06.440 --> 0:22:09.879 person caring for an elder family member, that you could 0:22:09.960 --> 0:22:13.760 have a more humane approach to work and working from 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:17.280 home and hours, work life balance. It could all be 0:22:17.320 --> 0:22:20.800 done because we did it, you know, and then we 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.640 decided it was too expensive, uh, and so we had 0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:27.960 to stop doing it. And so, you know, I really 0:22:28.000 --> 0:22:32.560 think that that was profoundly dispiriting, to say the least. 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:35.000 And again, right, we're supposed to go into the office 0:22:35.000 --> 0:22:40.320 because you know, uh, the big land, the big office building. Uh, 0:22:40.359 --> 0:22:45.879 you know, monarchs can't get the same rents. You know, 0:22:46.280 --> 0:22:48.720 I actually have more sympathy for this the you know, 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:50.840 the businesses, the small businesses, yes. 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.680 The small right that relied on you know, it's an ecosystem. 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.919 It is an ecosystem, and so you know, you'd have 0:22:58.000 --> 0:23:00.800 to really think big about how to how to rebuild it. 0:23:00.840 --> 0:23:03.480 But it can't be on the backs of making people 0:23:04.480 --> 0:23:09.080 you know, face horrible commutes, be separated from their families, 0:23:09.640 --> 0:23:12.679 their dogs. As mine sleeps here. I would never go 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:15.040 back into an office and leave my dog. You know, 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.520 I'm joking. I mean, I'm not joking, but that's trivial. 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:21.360 You know. We could do that for a while when 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.600 it benefited the owners, but we can't do it now 0:23:24.680 --> 0:23:27.159 when it benefits the workers. But you know, I just 0:23:27.280 --> 0:23:31.160 I do feel again semi optimistic because we've seen such 0:23:31.280 --> 0:23:34.240 a wave of labor activism and such a wave of oization, 0:23:34.720 --> 0:23:39.040 whether it's Starbucks and Amazon to you know, the Writer's 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:45.119 Guild and sag Aftra. More people are seeing themselves as workers, 0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:49.199 not you know, somebody who's gonna have the secret sauce. 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:51.560 And whatever your job is, you know you're gonna be 0:23:52.320 --> 0:23:54.960 brown nosing enough or you're gonna work hard enough, or 0:23:54.960 --> 0:23:59.120 you're gonna be brilliant enough that you will get well 0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.160 paid for your efforts, and those people who don't are 0:24:02.240 --> 0:24:05.119 just you know, slackers, and you know they deserve their fate. 0:24:05.560 --> 0:24:10.080 I think we've seen a real reduction in that kind 0:24:10.119 --> 0:24:14.920 of really anti social attitude, and that's a good thing. 0:24:18.200 --> 0:24:22.200 I think that the chasm became so clear and deep 0:24:22.320 --> 0:24:25.359 and stark between the haves and the have nots that 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:28.400 even the illusion of like the lottery thinking that many 0:24:28.400 --> 0:24:31.399 people have that I'm just one ticket away, one step away, 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.439 right from uber wealth, and if I were them, I 0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.640 would do the same thing. That that attitude has shifted 0:24:37.680 --> 0:24:40.800 because we realized that you were not one ticket, one step, 0:24:41.119 --> 0:24:44.280 one job away from that obscene amount of wealth. You're 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:48.240 actually really far from it, and you're closer to the 0:24:48.320 --> 0:24:52.960 people who are in poverty. That what we all recognize, 0:24:53.000 --> 0:24:57.840 particularly during the pandemic, is that most people in this 0:24:58.000 --> 0:25:02.080 country were one step away from a food line, right, Like, 0:25:02.119 --> 0:25:05.240 I think that we all fail to remember that the 0:25:05.280 --> 0:25:08.560 food lines in neighborhoods that we didn't even know how 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:13.160 had food banks, right were wrapped around. 0:25:12.960 --> 0:25:15.600 In the suburbs. You know, people were lining up in 0:25:15.640 --> 0:25:18.959 their cars. You know, parking lots were full, and you know, 0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:22.520 for you'd see cars for miles. You know, in the cities, 0:25:22.560 --> 0:25:25.080 you'd see lines around the block, and you'd see people 0:25:25.119 --> 0:25:27.520 you formerly wouldn't see. I mean, you know, if you 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.960 if you live in most cities, you know there's a 0:25:31.000 --> 0:25:33.720 food bank near you. You know, you know that, but 0:25:34.320 --> 0:25:37.080 you know, I would see the lines were two and 0:25:37.160 --> 0:25:38.760 three times what they used to be, and you would 0:25:38.760 --> 0:25:42.159 see people who you maybe wouldn't have seen before, or 0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:47.080 maybe you were seeing everyone anew. So, so yeah, I mean, 0:25:47.359 --> 0:25:51.760 I still don't think we're finished with reckoning with all 0:25:51.800 --> 0:25:54.720 of that, and I do think that there's an opportunity 0:25:55.320 --> 0:25:59.320 to you know, spread some of this new wisdom that 0:26:00.119 --> 0:26:02.119 you know, we are all a step away from the 0:26:02.119 --> 0:26:05.800 food bank. And I think the you know, the persistently 0:26:05.920 --> 0:26:10.480 American idea that hey, we can all get rich. So 0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:13.880 don't begrudge the you know, the founders of Google or 0:26:14.240 --> 0:26:17.640 Uber or Amazon or you know back in the day 0:26:17.720 --> 0:26:21.040 that the Robert Barons the oil companies. Don't begrudge in 0:26:21.119 --> 0:26:22.919 that because you know that could be you. It's not 0:26:23.000 --> 0:26:25.560 just yes, it's a lottery ticket, but it's also I 0:26:25.600 --> 0:26:29.720 don't know, you know, some miracle, you know, more your 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:33.680 worth will be rewarded someday. So I'd rather keep taxes 0:26:33.720 --> 0:26:38.280