1 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,480 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: me your girl Danielle Moody recording from the home bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: I'm excited for today's guest because I gotta tell you, 4 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,520 Speaker 1: you know, I interview authors all the time. I hope 5 00:00:31,520 --> 00:00:33,959 Speaker 1: that many of you are like me, with your Amazon 6 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: carts or local bookstore carts consistently filled with the people 7 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: that I bring on to WOKF. Today's guest I think 8 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 1: wins right now in terms of the titles that I've heard. 9 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: As of late, Joan Walsh, along with her co authors 10 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: Nick Hanoer and Donald Cohen, put out the book Corporate Bullshit, 11 00:00:57,400 --> 00:01:01,520 Speaker 1: exposing the lies and half truths that protect profit, power 12 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: and wealth in America. It is a book that is 13 00:01:07,600 --> 00:01:11,800 Speaker 1: not like your normal dry academic reads let me bring 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: you through history. But it is funny, it is entertaining, 15 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 1: it is thoughtful, and what it offers for where we 16 00:01:21,319 --> 00:01:24,640 Speaker 1: find ourselves right now, at a time when we have 17 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: witnessed multiple industries go on strike push back against corporate 18 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: overlords who want the ability to be able to buy 19 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: their fifth sixth home and their fucking rockets to go 20 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: to outer space, but not provide a living wage, healthcare, 21 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: or any decent benefits for workers. And what we've seen 22 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:54,600 Speaker 1: in particularly over the last three years with COVID is 23 00:01:54,800 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: this assertion and this realignment of people recognizing that workers 24 00:02:03,320 --> 00:02:08,880 Speaker 1: truly do have power when we work in community with 25 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: one another. That frankly, where our society finds itself is 26 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 1: that the chasm between the haves and the have nots 27 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 1: has grown so fucking large that even the illusion that 28 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 1: folks who still have the ability to call themselves middle 29 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: class or dare I say upper middle class, believe that 30 00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:42,880 Speaker 1: they were just one side hustle, one gig, one a 31 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 1: lottery ticket away from being wealthy, recognize that they are 32 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: generations away from the kind of wealth that we have 33 00:02:50,800 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 1: seen accumulated over the last few years and consolidated by 34 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,399 Speaker 1: just a small handful of people. And so in this 35 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:04,639 Speaker 1: book Corporate Bullshit, and in my conversation with Joan, we 36 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 1: get into some of the history that we have known, 37 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,639 Speaker 1: things that we have understood over the past few years, 38 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 1: and whether or not we believe that this space that 39 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 1: we are in is just another moment or is it 40 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:28,760 Speaker 1: really the worker's movement right This idea that we're not 41 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:31,080 Speaker 1: going to continue to fall for the lie and the 42 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: ropodope that, oh, if we were as wealthy as these 43 00:03:35,040 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: billionaire shareholders and CEOs, that we too will continue to 44 00:03:40,160 --> 00:03:42,720 Speaker 1: vote against our best interest because we just might make 45 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,920 Speaker 1: it there one day. We ain't making it there. That's 46 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 1: the joke, that's the punchline. And so what are we 47 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:54,080 Speaker 1: doing collectively to create a better society that sees the 48 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 1: full humanity of workers and understands that the bridge between 49 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: the overlord and the worker should not be so fucking 50 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: long and so big and so deep. So coming up next, 51 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:14,840 Speaker 1: my conversation with one of the authors of Corporate Bullshit, 52 00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: Exposing the lies and half truths that protect profit power 53 00:04:19,839 --> 00:04:27,120 Speaker 1: and wealth in America, Joan Walsh. Folks, I am very 54 00:04:27,160 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 1: excited to welcome to OKF Daily four, I believe the 55 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:33,960 Speaker 1: very first time Joan Walsh, who is the National Affairs 56 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,919 Speaker 1: correspondent for the Nation, the co producer of the Emmy 57 00:04:36,960 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: nominated documentary The Sit In. Harry Belafonte, hosts The Tonight Show, 58 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: and author of What's the Matter with White People? And 59 00:04:45,400 --> 00:04:50,160 Speaker 1: co author of the new book Corporate Bullshit, Exposing the 60 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,320 Speaker 1: lies and half truths that protect profit power and wealth 61 00:04:54,480 --> 00:05:01,960 Speaker 1: in America. Joan. First off, love the title. I love 62 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:08,760 Speaker 1: the title of the book because you know, I find 63 00:05:08,880 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: that it drives me crazy. I will say this, it 64 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:21,160 Speaker 1: drives me crazy when people workers defend corporations, defend the 65 00:05:21,200 --> 00:05:24,920 Speaker 1: lies that have been told around the reasons why we 66 00:05:24,960 --> 00:05:28,279 Speaker 1: all needed to sit inside of cubicles and offices for 67 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:32,200 Speaker 1: nine to ten hours a day until lo and behold, 68 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: there's a global health pandemic and we can't make it 69 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,080 Speaker 1: into work, and we can't go to school, and lo 70 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,000 Speaker 1: and behold, we figure out a way to adapt, a 71 00:05:40,000 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 1: way that is actually human centered and not profit centered. 72 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:48,919 Speaker 1: And then when that pandemic is you know, under control, 73 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:51,920 Speaker 1: and I use quotation marks with that, with a vaccine, 74 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 1: it's we got to go back to the offices because 75 00:05:55,600 --> 00:05:58,800 Speaker 1: of what exactly. No one's profits have declined. As a 76 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,960 Speaker 1: matter of fact, the see CEOs and shareholders of major 77 00:06:02,000 --> 00:06:08,719 Speaker 1: corporations got wealthier, right, But oh, there's another game at play, 78 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:11,960 Speaker 1: which is corporate real estate and the amount of money 79 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:15,839 Speaker 1: that they've paid for these places. And so everything that 80 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: I realize in your book airs out. And I just 81 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: want to start off with this question, which is why 82 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,839 Speaker 1: do we fall for the lives why do Why are 83 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:31,320 Speaker 1: they so able to manipulate us out of our human 84 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 1: centered ideas of how we should work versus how they 85 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:36,799 Speaker 1: want us to work. 86 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: I think because they've been perfecting these lies for you know, 87 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 2: literally centuries. You know, our book starts with a lot 88 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,479 Speaker 2: of the early quotations about slavery, defending slavery something that 89 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 2: is kind of back in vogue, and that they whether 90 00:06:55,720 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 2: it's slave owners, landowners, corporate owners today, they managed to 91 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: convince us that their self interest is in our self interest, 92 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 2: that they have our best interests at heart. So you 93 00:07:10,640 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: are you know, you know, our history of oh, slavery 94 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: was just very good for the slaves. Slaves are happy, 95 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 2: they're healthy, they're well fed. This is a good thing 96 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: for these people who have been given religion and you know, 97 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 2: pretending that people didn't have it before and all of that. 98 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,320 Speaker 2: I mean that in some ways is the most disgusting 99 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: and the most obvious, although it's being recycled, so maybe 100 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:41,240 Speaker 2: it could still work. And I think, you know, one 101 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: of the big issues we discuss in the book is 102 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 2: that they've managed to convince so many workers that if 103 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 2: they want to help us, they do, they really do. 104 00:07:54,160 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 2: But you know, their profits would decline, they go out 105 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 2: of business, and then we wouldn't even have the jobs 106 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: we're complaining about, whether we're striking, union organizing, asking for 107 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:07,960 Speaker 2: you know, wage increases, as individuals asking for family leave. 108 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 2: They'd like to do it. But you know, if you 109 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: think your job is a problem, now wait till you 110 00:08:13,480 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 2: don't have a job. And that comes out again and 111 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,880 Speaker 2: again in different kinds of iterations, and so I think 112 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 2: that's that's the main thing that they've been They've been 113 00:08:21,320 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: honing this set of lies around so many issues for 114 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: hundreds of years, and working people catch up and you know, 115 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:35,000 Speaker 2: combat them, but then they have to face it in 116 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 2: a different form or in a different in a different context. 117 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 2: We chose to organize the book around the specific types 118 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 2: of lies, the categories of lies, rather than okay, here's 119 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,080 Speaker 2: a chapter about climate change, or here's a chapter about 120 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 2: the minimum wage, or here's medicare We have those examples 121 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,960 Speaker 2: throughout the book, and we have some case studies that 122 00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:01,719 Speaker 2: are specifically about those issue choose, But we thought it 123 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 2: was more effective to just show you how this is 124 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: their playbook and they can adapt this set of arguments 125 00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:13,680 Speaker 2: to virtually everything, and they're shameless and so you know, 126 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: it's a kind of a handbook for fighting back. It's 127 00:09:16,440 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 2: a kind of you know, one of our one of 128 00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:26,079 Speaker 2: our reviewer called it kind of an inoculation, you know, vaccines. 129 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: This is kind of a vaccine, potentially a vaccine against lies. 130 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 2: And you know, I also want to add that it's 131 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 2: a fun read. Like we really we emphasize the quotes, 132 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: the cartoons, the headlines. It's not a thick tome of 133 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 2: oh you know, oh no, oh my god. It's something 134 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 2: you can dip into and out of and uh as 135 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 2: you want to. You can sit there and read it through, 136 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 2: but you can also go to your issues or to 137 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 2: what intrigues you. And we thought it was important that 138 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 2: it be like that to kind of get it out 139 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 2: of the hands of academics. God bless our academics, right, 140 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,479 Speaker 2: but you know, make it something that a union organizer 141 00:10:08,679 --> 00:10:11,840 Speaker 2: or you know, or a nurse or a childcare worker 142 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: or you know, somebody working on the hill in city 143 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 2: hall can get their hands on it and get their 144 00:10:17,280 --> 00:10:20,600 Speaker 2: minds around and be you know, smarter and more effective 145 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:21,680 Speaker 2: of fighting back. 146 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: Dig into some of the lies that the book is 147 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 1: organized around. For us, because I think that to your point, 148 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:40,239 Speaker 1: the way in which corporate America has been able to adapt, 149 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: regardless of the century, regardless of what is at play, 150 00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:49,680 Speaker 1: that they are utilizing the same playbook, but they just 151 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: iterate on it, right, And so you know what struck 152 00:10:53,400 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 1: me before you get into that, what struck me at 153 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: the beginning was when you said, you know, these are 154 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: the justificate. It's a same justifications that they made for slavery. 155 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:09,280 Speaker 1: When your idea of work comes out of being able 156 00:11:09,320 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: to have power over people, being able to press them 157 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:18,760 Speaker 1: literally until their breaking points, and that be the formation 158 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: of your understanding around work and value, it's no wonder 159 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,920 Speaker 1: why we find ourselves centuries later in the place that 160 00:11:26,960 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 1: we are, where you still have corporate overlords trying to 161 00:11:30,960 --> 00:11:34,320 Speaker 1: get trying to best themselves back to a place of 162 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: free labor, right. 163 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 2: As close as close as possible, to free labor, to 164 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 2: labor without any rights to labor, without any protections, any 165 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: health protections, all the while insisting that you know, the 166 00:11:48,200 --> 00:11:51,559 Speaker 2: workers are really are really, actually happy and they're doing well. 167 00:11:51,600 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 2: And so yeah, the set of lies, you know, it 168 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 2: starts with it's not a problem, you know, it's just 169 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,960 Speaker 2: it's it's not a problem. Coal mining accidents are just 170 00:12:02,040 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 2: part of nature, you know, it's it's it's a law 171 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: of nature. Uh. And you know cigarettes are not addictive. Uh, 172 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 2: Nicotine is not a problem. There's no such thing as 173 00:12:13,520 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 2: global warming and that and climate change. So you know 174 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 2: that goes on to this day. Right, we're told that 175 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 2: so many things that we identify as problems or problems, 176 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 2: and then they you know, they flip if they really 177 00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 2: have to admit it's a problem. One of their really 178 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 2: devilish and devious adjustments is, Okay, it's a problem, but 179 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 2: it's not our fault. It's your fault. So okay, there 180 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,760 Speaker 2: are actually coal mining accidents, unfortunately, but it's because the 181 00:12:42,840 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 2: workers are careless, uh and stupid. The workers won't wear 182 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 2: protective gear in chemical factories. Uh. They they take chances, 183 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:57,840 Speaker 2: they come to they come to work drunk. You know, 184 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 2: we don't need seat belts, we need care careful drivers. 185 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 2: You know, car accidents are caused by bad, lazy drivers. 186 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: And there's nothing you can't legislate that, you know, out 187 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:13,199 Speaker 2: of the landscape. And so you know, they're so good 188 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 2: at blaming us. And there's I think there's something in 189 00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 2: our psyches. You know that we've sort of many of 190 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 2: us have been working on in different ways personally and 191 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 2: collectively that it's easy to get ourselves to blame ourselves, 192 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 2: you know, at least for a time like that can 193 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:30,320 Speaker 2: be a phase of your development. Oh you know, really, 194 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:32,920 Speaker 2: I guess I really shouldn't have done X, Y or 195 00:13:33,040 --> 00:13:36,079 Speaker 2: Z on the job. I cause that no, you do, 196 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 2: you know you didn't. And this is what they do. 197 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 2: And they have, you know, teams of management consultants to 198 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 2: tell them that, so you know, it's it's your fault 199 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,280 Speaker 2: so we can't protect you. Then it's like, well, we'd 200 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 2: like to protect you, but somehow we would only make 201 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 2: things worse. And that is you know, that can range 202 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,840 Speaker 2: from uh, we talked about already, the you know, job 203 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: killing nature of regulation that you know, that's one example. 204 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 2: But you know, also I think one of the most 205 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 2: formative lies like this to me was when Ronald Reagan 206 00:14:16,840 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 2: said the federal government fought a war on poverty and 207 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: poverty won. Well, that's a lie, it didn't. But by 208 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:30,640 Speaker 2: sounding like he really cared about poor people and he 209 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 2: really would want to help them if he could, I 210 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 2: think it was like sort of the new Reagan, because 211 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: the old Reagan. The original Reagan was all about blaming 212 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:42,200 Speaker 2: poor people, blaming black people, a lot of rational beyond 213 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: dog whistling, you know, welfare queens, et cetera. But then 214 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 2: the Reagan who got elected in nineteen eighty was kind 215 00:14:49,520 --> 00:14:52,640 Speaker 2: of a he was a more genial Reagan, and now 216 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: he really cared about poverty, except those bureaucrats, you know, 217 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 2: they broke up families u welfare cause quote illegitimacy. Although 218 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 2: when we cut when we dramatically cut back welfare, we 219 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 2: still have the same rates of you know, single parent 220 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 2: households that we had back in you know, when welfare 221 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 2: reformed passed under Democrats under Bill Clinton in nineteen ninety six. 222 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:22,280 Speaker 2: All of these cultural explanations have turned out to be bullshit. 223 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:30,200 Speaker 2: But learning how to couch your self interest, your corporate donors, 224 00:15:30,440 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 2: self interest in the case of politician as we're really 225 00:15:34,280 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 2: looking out for other people. But this is the best 226 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 2: way to do it. That's been profound and you can 227 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 2: you see that kind of thing to this day. 228 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:44,480 Speaker 1: You know. One of the things that stick out to 229 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,400 Speaker 1: me too in the ways that we have as a 230 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:55,120 Speaker 1: society allowed the bullshit to prevail, is this idea that 231 00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 1: because I had to deal with it. You should too. 232 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: I think about the difference in terms of how this 233 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: is the first time I think in work life where 234 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: you have a multitude of generations in the workforce at 235 00:16:09,960 --> 00:16:13,680 Speaker 1: the same time. The Boomers are there, gen X is there, 236 00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: Millennials are there, and now you have gen Z all 237 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:20,960 Speaker 1: working at the same time and in the same space. 238 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 2: Right, because we can't afford to retire. 239 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: Because you all can't afford to retire, and. 240 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 2: Well for ourselves compared compared to other generations. But it's 241 00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 2: still kind of hard anyway. 242 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: And but the reality is that you have this generational 243 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 1: divide where gen Z and millennials are saying, we don't 244 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 1: want to take workplace abuse. That isn't a that isn't 245 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:48,160 Speaker 1: par for the course for you to be able to 246 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 1: email me at ten pm and expect, you know, me 247 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 1: to be on call all the time. Right that this 248 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 1: type of you need to put the company, the firm, 249 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: the business, the school, this, that and the other thing 250 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: before your own needs, right, is just par for the course. 251 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 1: The abuse that you would take from bosses and what 252 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: have you. Is that that's what you do, right, That's 253 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:15,919 Speaker 1: called being a grown up. And yet you have this 254 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:19,320 Speaker 1: younger generation and I look at really gen Z because 255 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: millennials are forty now, But you have this younger generation 256 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: that is just like, wait a minute, actually no, I'll 257 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,280 Speaker 1: just not do that job. I'll just quit right because 258 00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm never gonna have what is considered the the I 259 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:40,120 Speaker 1: guess the accoutrements that come with success. I'm not gonna 260 00:17:40,119 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 1: own a home. I can't afford it. You see mortgage 261 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,119 Speaker 1: rates right, like, I'm not. 262 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 2: I don't. 263 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,239 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna own a car because I'm gonna live 264 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: in a city, So I'm not gonna have that either. 265 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: So the trappings, and I'm not gonna get married, right 266 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: because I see no benefit. I'd see no real benefit. 267 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: Everybody's everybody's divorce rates are high. So the trappings that 268 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:02,520 Speaker 1: used to keep people in these jobs, right, and my 269 00:18:02,560 --> 00:18:07,920 Speaker 1: healthcare is shit anyway, right right, So are no longer there. 270 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:12,440 Speaker 1: But you see older generations kind of scoffing at Oh, well, 271 00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 1: they're just lazy in my generation, we you know, so 272 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: how like that's that is also Joan, right, a part 273 00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: of the lie that we then regurgitate to ourselves and 274 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: to younger generations. Because I endured you should have to too. 275 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that, you know, especially for boomers. And 276 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 2: when you see that to some extent, it's it's a 277 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: two edged sword, because comparatively, boomers are doing well. We 278 00:18:46,720 --> 00:18:50,639 Speaker 2: were the last generation that college was affordable. You know, 279 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 2: more of us were able to buy homes, We didn't 280 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 2: graduate with a ton of student debt. To the extent 281 00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,119 Speaker 2: that the system worked for us, then it's just like, 282 00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 2: why don't you little whiners buckle down and it'll work 283 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:10,360 Speaker 2: for you. Now, that's just patently untrue. We've seen it. 284 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 2: We've seen that real wages have declined. We've seen that 285 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,959 Speaker 2: purchasing power has declined. Home prices of sword, rent prices 286 00:19:18,000 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 2: of sword, all the things that were in some ways subsidized, 287 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 2: like college as well as home ownership, all of that 288 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,280 Speaker 2: has either disappeared or dried up or retracted. And so 289 00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: the building blocks or the ladders of opportunity that really 290 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,480 Speaker 2: in the forties and fifties, in the post war period 291 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:45,000 Speaker 2: into the sixties really sort of consciously privileged labor over capital, 292 00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 2: really gave unions and workers generally more rights, really did 293 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: subsidize the building of homes, et cetera, et cetera. All 294 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:57,639 Speaker 2: of that post war apparatus was like, it was a 295 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: structure of opportunity, and it literally built high tax rates, 296 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 2: built the middle class as we have come to know it, 297 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 2: and which has been in trouble since the you know, 298 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 2: mainly Republican corporate backlash of the nineteen seventies. And you know, 299 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 2: we can track the you know, the decline in wages 300 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 2: and the decline in top tax rates, et cetera, and 301 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: the decline in the middle class. So I think it's 302 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: that people who've kind of made it think, well, the 303 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 2: same you know, effort will work for everybody that's part 304 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: of it. And then I think, you know, you said 305 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: something that struck me before about the pandemic was such 306 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: an interesting, horrible but it's socially interesting experiment because I, 307 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 2: you know, am kind of an optimist, because you'd have 308 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 2: to be to doing this to do this work this long, 309 00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 2: you know, And I remember feeling in my fear and 310 00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 2: my grief that well, hey, maybe we're seeing that, Wow, 311 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 2: we're all in this together. The fact the health inequities 312 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 2: that we have perpetrated on you know, low income, working class, 313 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,159 Speaker 2: poor people of color are now having ripples that are 314 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 2: affecting all of us. We can turn society in a 315 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:22,960 Speaker 2: way on a dime. We can all. I can't say all, 316 00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,439 Speaker 2: but many of us can work at home. I remember 317 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 2: thinking we would have vastly greater both empathy for each other, 318 00:21:33,119 --> 00:21:36,640 Speaker 2: for healthcare workers, you know, banging the pots and pans, 319 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: would would give way to better wages for people especially 320 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:47,159 Speaker 2: at the bottom, the essential workers, people in body bags, 321 00:21:47,200 --> 00:21:49,439 Speaker 2: as well as holding their hands when they died, we 322 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 2: would we would understand that they really were doing God's 323 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 2: work and give them a living wage. All these things 324 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 2: that I thought, And that also we could remake the workplace. 325 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: And you know, whether you're a student, whether you have 326 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,440 Speaker 2: whether your mom or dad, whether you're a middle aged 327 00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 2: person caring for an elder family member, that you could 328 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: have a more humane approach to work and working from 329 00:22:13,840 --> 00:22:17,280 Speaker 2: home and hours, work life balance. It could all be 330 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 2: done because we did it, you know, and then we 331 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: decided it was too expensive, uh, and so we had 332 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:27,960 Speaker 2: to stop doing it. And so, you know, I really 333 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 2: think that that was profoundly dispiriting, to say the least. 334 00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,000 Speaker 2: And again, right, we're supposed to go into the office 335 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 2: because you know, uh, the big land, the big office building. Uh, 336 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 2: you know, monarchs can't get the same rents. You know, 337 00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: I actually have more sympathy for this the you know, 338 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 2: the businesses, the small businesses, yes. 339 00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,680 Speaker 1: The small right that relied on you know, it's an ecosystem. 340 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 2: It is an ecosystem, and so you know, you'd have 341 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 2: to really think big about how to how to rebuild it. 342 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:03,480 Speaker 2: But it can't be on the backs of making people 343 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:09,080 Speaker 2: you know, face horrible commutes, be separated from their families, 344 00:23:09,640 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 2: their dogs. As mine sleeps here. I would never go 345 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 2: back into an office and leave my dog. You know, 346 00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 2: I'm joking. I mean, I'm not joking, but that's trivial. 347 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:21,360 Speaker 2: You know. We could do that for a while when 348 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: it benefited the owners, but we can't do it now 349 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: when it benefits the workers. But you know, I just 350 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:31,160 Speaker 2: I do feel again semi optimistic because we've seen such 351 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 2: a wave of labor activism and such a wave of oization, 352 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: whether it's Starbucks and Amazon to you know, the Writer's 353 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 2: Guild and sag Aftra. More people are seeing themselves as workers, 354 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: not you know, somebody who's gonna have the secret sauce. 355 00:23:49,240 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 2: And whatever your job is, you know you're gonna be 356 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 2: brown nosing enough or you're gonna work hard enough, or 357 00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 2: you're gonna be brilliant enough that you will get well 358 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,160 Speaker 2: paid for your efforts, and those people who don't are 359 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,119 Speaker 2: just you know, slackers, and you know they deserve their fate. 360 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 2: I think we've seen a real reduction in that kind 361 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,920 Speaker 2: of really anti social attitude, and that's a good thing. 362 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:22,200 Speaker 1: I think that the chasm became so clear and deep 363 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:25,359 Speaker 1: and stark between the haves and the have nots that 364 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: even the illusion of like the lottery thinking that many 365 00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:31,399 Speaker 1: people have that I'm just one ticket away, one step away, 366 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: right from uber wealth, and if I were them, I 367 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,640 Speaker 1: would do the same thing. That that attitude has shifted 368 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,800 Speaker 1: because we realized that you were not one ticket, one step, 369 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 1: one job away from that obscene amount of wealth. You're 370 00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: actually really far from it, and you're closer to the 371 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,960 Speaker 1: people who are in poverty. That what we all recognize, 372 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: particularly during the pandemic, is that most people in this 373 00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:02,080 Speaker 1: country were one step away from a food line, right, Like, 374 00:25:02,119 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: I think that we all fail to remember that the 375 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: food lines in neighborhoods that we didn't even know how 376 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 1: had food banks, right were wrapped around. 377 00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 2: In the suburbs. You know, people were lining up in 378 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:18,959 Speaker 2: their cars. You know, parking lots were full, and you know, 379 00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 2: for you'd see cars for miles. You know, in the cities, 380 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 2: you'd see lines around the block, and you'd see people 381 00:25:25,119 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: you formerly wouldn't see. I mean, you know, if you 382 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: if you live in most cities, you know there's a 383 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: food bank near you. You know, you know that, but 384 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 2: you know, I would see the lines were two and 385 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: three times what they used to be, and you would 386 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 2: see people who you maybe wouldn't have seen before, or 387 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 2: maybe you were seeing everyone anew. So, so yeah, I mean, 388 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 2: I still don't think we're finished with reckoning with all 389 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: of that, and I do think that there's an opportunity 390 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 2: to you know, spread some of this new wisdom that 391 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,119 Speaker 2: you know, we are all a step away from the 392 00:26:02,119 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 2: food bank. And I think the you know, the persistently 393 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: American idea that hey, we can all get rich. So 394 00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,880 Speaker 2: don't begrudge the you know, the founders of Google or 395 00:26:14,240 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 2: Uber or Amazon or you know back in the day 396 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:21,040 Speaker 2: that the Robert Barons the oil companies. Don't begrudge in 397 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:22,919 Speaker 2: that because you know that could be you. It's not 398 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,560 Speaker 2: just yes, it's a lottery ticket, but it's also I 399 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 2: don't know, you know, some miracle, you know, more your 400 00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:33,680 Speaker 2: worth will be rewarded someday. So I'd rather keep taxes 401 00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 2: on those people low because someday I could be one 402 00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:43,000 Speaker 2: of them. No, probably not, you probably are almost certainly can't. 403 00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:45,480 Speaker 2: And I think there's a little bit more realism about that. 404 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,120 Speaker 1: Finally, so joan last question for you, what are your 405 00:26:50,240 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 1: hopes you and your co authors for corporate bullshit? What 406 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: do you hope that people take from it? 407 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,119 Speaker 2: I hope that people get a sense of of the optimism, uh, 408 00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,960 Speaker 2: and the paradigm shift that we're discussing Danielle, that they 409 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:08,359 Speaker 2: really do have more power, that these uh, these people 410 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 2: have been putting out these self serving lies for so long, 411 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: and uh, you know, I think it's it's the great 412 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 2: economist Robert Robert Reich says, uh, we blurbed the book 413 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,399 Speaker 2: for us, which is lovely, and he says something like, 414 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,160 Speaker 2: you know, once you see this, once you see this pattern, 415 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:27,960 Speaker 2: the way they lie, there are arguments you can't unsee it. 416 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,120 Speaker 2: And we've you know, we've had you read it now 417 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 2: saying yeah, it's like you know, I even had Tim Miller, 418 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:39,440 Speaker 2: who's you know, Bulwark founder and a former Republican who 419 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 2: you know is now mostly you know, come over to 420 00:27:42,800 --> 00:27:47,400 Speaker 2: our side. Say. You know, as he was reading it, 421 00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:51,239 Speaker 2: he felt bad about not just what he did as 422 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 2: a Republican, UH strategist, worker whatever, but you know he 423 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: did in between times he did some work for corporations. 424 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: And he's like, yeah, we really did use these bullshit 425 00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: arguments and they did work, but they were lies. And 426 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,240 Speaker 2: you know, so I love moments like that where even 427 00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,600 Speaker 2: people who used to do this stuff or like this 428 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,760 Speaker 2: is really unconscionable. I'd like, I mean, every day we 429 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,119 Speaker 2: have another example of you know, Ron DeSantis wants it 430 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 2: to be taught that slavery benefited some the enslaved. Great, 431 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 2: we have child labor is making a comeback and it's 432 00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 2: reviving the you know, the old arguments in favor of 433 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,720 Speaker 2: child labor, that this is good for kids, makes them stronger, 434 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:41,120 Speaker 2: it's good for their families who we don't want to 435 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,360 Speaker 2: pay living we don't want to pay their parents living wages. 436 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 2: I mean that was also that was true back then 437 00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,479 Speaker 2: they needed the extra income. How dare we take that 438 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 2: away from those poor parents? You know, the child tax credit, 439 00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 2: which you know again those one of those paradigm shifts 440 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 2: in a heartbeat. We reduced not white, but quickly, we reduced. 441 00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 2: We cut child probably in half. But people ranging from 442 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 2: Republicans to Joe Manchin who's close to a Republican, they 443 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 2: were against it because it was going to discourage work. Again, 444 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 2: back to that welfare you know it causes poverty thing, Well, 445 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:23,160 Speaker 2: this is going to cause more child poverty because they're moms, 446 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 2: mostly moms, and dads are going to work less. Even 447 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 2: though there's no we've ran this experiment, there's no evidence 448 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 2: that the child tax credit did that, but they're still 449 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 2: using this pull yourself up by your bootstraps. You know, 450 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 2: you'll get soft and lazy if we coddle you. Get 451 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:44,040 Speaker 2: out there and work. They're still using the arguments, and 452 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,280 Speaker 2: I'm sorry to say they worked. We don't have that, 453 00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,920 Speaker 2: you know, the level of credit we had. So I'm 454 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: hoping that people can see that and that these arguments 455 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 2: will work less and that this will be a handbook 456 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,160 Speaker 2: for you know, activists. I was going to say, young activists, no, 457 00:30:04,480 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 2: old activists, everybody, everybody to really begin to see the 458 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: power that we have to construct new narratives based on 459 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 2: truth and also based on what's good for most of 460 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,320 Speaker 2: us and not just good for the wealthy. 461 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: So brilliant, folks. The book is corporate bullshit, exposing the 462 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: lies and half truths that protect profit, power and wealth 463 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:34,840 Speaker 1: in America, and you should pick it up immediately. It is, 464 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 1: as she said, not a dry academic read. I think 465 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,600 Speaker 1: you guys will enjoy it. Joan, thank you so much 466 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 1: for making the time for wok F Daily, and I 467 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: hope that you will come back again and join us. 468 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: Absolutely, it was really fun. Thank you for the conversation. 469 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke 470 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 1: af AS always, power to the people and to all 471 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.