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Speaker 1: Hello and welcome back to Drilled.

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Speaker 2: This is The Spill, our weekly news.

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Speaker 1: Podcast where we talk about all kinds of things related

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Speaker 1: to climate, news and policy.

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Speaker 2: But today, something a little more fun, culture.

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Speaker 1: We're going to talk about the movie Digger, and I'm

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Speaker 1: going to tell you why in a minute.

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Speaker 3: But first, introduce yourselves, ladies. Tell the people who you are.

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Speaker 3: I'm Eileen Brown. I'm an editor and reporter for Drilled.

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Speaker 4: I'm Nina Lakhani. I'm the global climate justice reporter.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Amy Westervelt. King shit. No, I'm just kidding.

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Speaker 4: La jefa, as we say here in Mexico.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we're going to talk about this movie because, well, A,

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Speaker 1: it's a climate satire. So, you know, it's something we

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Speaker 1: probably would have gotten around to at some point anyway.

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Speaker 1: But also, it's been kind of the topic of some

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Speaker 1: discourse because it has not been doing well at the

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Speaker 1: box office. And it's been getting... Pretty well panned by

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Speaker 1: critics as well. So we thought it'd be a good

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Speaker 1: time to talk about what we think of it and

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Speaker 1: kind of like its place in the sort of broader

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Speaker 1: conversation of climate, TV and film in general.

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Speaker 2: Did we all just see it this weekend for this week?

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Speaker 5: Show?

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Speaker 2: Yes.

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Speaker 5: Yep.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: We're good.

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Speaker 1: All right.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I loved it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I loved it. I really did.

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Speaker 6: I didn't think, I don't think it's the best movie

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Speaker 6: ever made, but fine. That's the high bar. I laughed

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Speaker 6: out loud as did the packed Mexico City theater audience.

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Speaker 6: A lot of times I thought it was smart. It

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Speaker 6: was funny. I mean, I think there were some scenes

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Speaker 6: that were too long, but I literally think that about

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Speaker 6: every movie now. Like, why are no movies 90 minutes anymore?

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Speaker 6: That's a broader sort of complaint. But yeah, I thought

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Speaker 6: it was funny. And I think thinking back to what

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Speaker 6: the critics were saying about it just being too scoldy

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Speaker 6: and audiences are tired about hearing about how bad rich

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Speaker 6: people are. That to me wasn't the movie. The movie

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Speaker 6: was about... our, the world's reaction to these people and

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Speaker 6: to what's going on and our, our, our ability and

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Speaker 6: our need to normalize stuff that is not normal, you know?

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Speaker 6: And so I just thought, I thought it was, I

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Speaker 6: thought it worked really well. I thought it was beautifully shot.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was really beautiful. I thought so too.

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is so pretty because it's Iñárritu, right?

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Speaker 1: This is like a very creative Mexican director who's done

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Speaker 1: some very cool movies throughout his career.

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Speaker 6: Iñárritu was working with his like, you know, top Mexican

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Speaker 6: team of like director of photography, like his visuals people,

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Speaker 6: which gave it very much his style. I felt like

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Speaker 6: the color palette was incredible. Like, you know, the whole

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Speaker 6: scene at the European Parliament just.

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Speaker 4: Sort of being like this.

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Speaker 1: Oh my God.

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Speaker 4: Anyway, for me, B plus. Old school grading, B plus.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 5: All right.

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Speaker 2: Aline, what'd you think?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I loved it too. And I really didn't

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Speaker 3: expect to.

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Speaker 5: Wow.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 3: I mean, It's possible. You know, I have a little

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Speaker 3: hater in my soul.

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Speaker 7: And so the fact that so many people hated it

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Speaker 7: so much might have primed me to like it.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 3: But also the.

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Speaker 7: Little hater in my soul, like I thought it was like,

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Speaker 7: I thought it was super cynical and I feel super

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Speaker 7: cynical and I don't, you know, I feel like people

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Speaker 7: were complaining about how like ugly and obnoxious the characters were,

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Speaker 7: but it's like, Like.

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Speaker 3: Look around us right now.

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Speaker 7: You know, things like we're dealing with cartoon characters and

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Speaker 7: they almost have to be a sort of like cartoonish

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Speaker 7: level of grotesque to outmatch what we've already got.

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Speaker 4: Well, I was like, hmm. I can think of a

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Speaker 4: lot worse people in real life. That's funny to me.

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Speaker 3: So I like made a conscious.

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Speaker 1: Decision to not read any reviews or, and like, I

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Speaker 1: tried as much as I could to stay away even

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Speaker 1: from like social media discourse on it before I watched.

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Speaker 1: Cause I didn't even read the synopsis. I was like,

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Speaker 1: I just want to go in cold and like, see

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Speaker 1: what I think. And, um, And then I read stuff

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Speaker 1: afterwards and I was like, oh, that's so funny that

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Speaker 1: people thought that like that character was so over the

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Speaker 1: top or this or that. I mean, he was a little,

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Speaker 1: but I was like, I feel like I've seen characters

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Speaker 1: like that in every Tyler Sheridan show.

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: You know, like I, I don't know. I'm like, how

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Speaker 3: is this different?

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Speaker 1: Especially like a lot of the talking points and stuff

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Speaker 1: were similar to like what you'll hear in Landman or.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 3: Like, yeah.

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Speaker 4: Or on Twitter by Elon Musk. I mean, literally. Totally.

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Speaker 6: He didn't say anything that I hadn't heard before from

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Speaker 6: these crazy fucking tech bros that want to live forever

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Speaker 6: and want their cat.

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Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? It's like, it didn't

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Speaker 4: seem outlandish to me.

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Speaker 3: I did.

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Speaker 5: Okay.

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Speaker 1: So there's like, we're going to have some spoilers in this.

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Speaker 1: So if you, this is a good point to say

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Speaker 1: that if you have not seen Digger and you want to,

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Speaker 1: Maybe pause the episode and go watch it and then

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Speaker 1: come back and listen to the rest.

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Speaker 3: Because let's talk about the cat. Because it starts like the... Vital.

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Speaker 3: What did you, okay, wait, Amy, I want to talk

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Speaker 3: about the cat, but did you love it? Hate it?

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Speaker 3: In between? I want your overall picture first. I think

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Speaker 3: I'm like in the B plus too.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was really like the, I thought I

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Speaker 1: really liked how, I don't know. I just, I felt

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Speaker 1: like it was like Mexican surrealism. The, like the way

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Speaker 1: it looked the whole time, which I really loved. I

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Speaker 1: actually was like, there were a few moments where I

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Speaker 1: did think it was like, you know, like a little

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Speaker 1: bit ham-fisted where it could have been subtle. But I

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Speaker 1: also find Tom Cruise very annoying in general in every movie.

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Speaker 1: And I was thinking about like before we watched it,

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Speaker 1: Aline was like, I just hope that Tom Cruise ends

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Speaker 1: up like jumping around and doing weird acrobatics.

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Speaker 2: And if he did, he did not disappoint on that.

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Speaker 3: Yes.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I'm no Tom Cruise fan apart from Cocktail,

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Speaker 6: which I loved when I was a teenager. I've never

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Speaker 6: liked a Tom Cruise performance since.

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Speaker 4: I thought he was excellent.

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Speaker 6: I honestly did because I think it actually for him

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Speaker 6: and his need to be like the center of everything

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Speaker 6: and every second actually worked.

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Speaker 4: It kind of fit.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 3: It did kind of fit.

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Speaker 1: It also was like one of those movies that like

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Speaker 1: there were things that like I think it was really

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Speaker 1: smart because there were things that like made sense only

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Speaker 1: at the end of the movie, right?

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Speaker 3: Or only like.

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Speaker 1: Halfway through or three quarters. Like the opening, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is cool. It looks like a, you know, like

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Speaker 1: a stage opening. And then it's like, oh, because so

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about the reveal. What you find out like

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Speaker 1: pretty far into the movie is. is that these people

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Speaker 1: you've been watching are staging a play. So there's this

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Speaker 1: very breaking the fourth wall kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: And you're seeing.

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Speaker 1: All of a sudden, like three different stories unfold where

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Speaker 1: you've got like the play, you've got this weird producer who,

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Speaker 1: I think he was my favorite character actually was.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: What's his name? Jesse Plemons. Yes. God, he was so good.

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Speaker 1: He didn't even have that many lines, but I really

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Speaker 1: liked him as a character. There's one line that he

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Speaker 1: delivers where all the actors and the director are arguing

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Speaker 1: about like how best to tell this story and like,

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Speaker 1: The Tom Cruise character is like, this isn't even true

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Speaker 1: to life.

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Speaker 3: And the director is like, whatever. And I'm like, oh, man,

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Speaker 3: I feel like I've totally seen.

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Speaker 1: And or been a part of those arguments myself. And

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Speaker 1: his whole his point was like, yes, you're all right.

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Speaker 1: And like, it doesn't like it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Well, OK, so my theory is that Iñárritu was like

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Speaker 7: making this movie for what, like a decade or something?

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Speaker 7: And he must have been bombarded with the type of

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Speaker 7: like climate narrative disputes that we have all heard a

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Speaker 7: million times that are utterly disgusting. exhausting yeah and also

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Speaker 7: this like sort of policing about how the story should

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Speaker 7: be told and like what kind of story is gonna

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Speaker 7: like spur action and oh my god we need Hollywood

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Speaker 7: to do more climate narratives and I'm sure he was

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Speaker 7: just like completely immersed in this and at a certain

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Speaker 7: point it's like okay but this is like farcical the

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Speaker 7: idea that that making this movie is gonna be what

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Speaker 7: like changes people's minds about the climate and like saves

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Speaker 7: the world like No, it's just not. And like, so

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Speaker 7: part of my exhaustion coming into the movie is like, okay,

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Speaker 7: I'm watching this.

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Speaker 3: I'm watching a climate movie.

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Speaker 7: Like, despite being a climate reporter, I'm like, okay, we're

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Speaker 7: doing this thing. Then when it's like, okay, no, we're

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Speaker 7: stepping back and we're like reflecting on the limitations to narrative.

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Speaker 3: That was interesting to me, you know?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: And like, you know, I think this is the climate

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Speaker 7: crisis and the way things are unfolding. It is like

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Speaker 7: there is a narrative war going on. But I feel

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Speaker 7: like in the end, this movie was about, OK, what

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Speaker 7: happens when there's no like we're already there, you know,

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Speaker 7: which you could say we already are, you know, like

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Speaker 7: at the end. the breakdown has already happened. The movie

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Speaker 7: is only, you know, the movie is just helping people

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Speaker 7: like process their feelings.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I mean, I mean, to me, that was, that was

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Speaker 6: the vehicle of it, right? That Actually, what we're now

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Speaker 6: experiencing is a fucking farce that we've allowed this to

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Speaker 6: happen and that we're here is the farce, right? Like

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Speaker 6: we've just sort of, we've just, you know, every day

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Speaker 6: just got a little bit more normalised to like what's

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Speaker 6: going on and just been like, oh. A massive glacier

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Speaker 6: has broken off the coast of Nepal and like thousands

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Speaker 6: of people are worried.

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Speaker 4: Oh, okay, next day, let's talk about something else.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it is farcical and like that we've allowed

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Speaker 6: that to happen.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's what he just leans into.

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Speaker 6: I went with like, oh God, you know, as a

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Speaker 6: climate reporter, it's the last thing I want to do

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Speaker 6: in my spare time.

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Speaker 3: I just thought it was excellent.

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Speaker 4: I just thought it was an excellent movie, right?

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Speaker 6: My favourite character was, well, I love, Riz Ahmed is

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Speaker 6: one of my favourite British actors, you know.

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Speaker 4: He was so good at that.

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Speaker 6: Yes oh my god it was so good like you

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Speaker 6: know um and um that scene when that army general

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Speaker 6: the chief of staff he was like no but where

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Speaker 6: are you really from no no no america boston no

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Speaker 6: but really where are you really from like i was

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Speaker 6: just like yeah that was that was a good hit

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Speaker 6: on the nose.

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Speaker 1: Yeah he was yeah he was great um i realized

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Speaker 1: that we started talking about the cat and then um

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Speaker 1: And then shifted gears.

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Speaker 3: But I do think one of the reasons... Okay, so

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Speaker 3: this is like this.

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Speaker 1: Very farcical thing where this old oil tycoon... has this

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Speaker 1: cat that he's been like keeping alive in various ways for,

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Speaker 1: you know, way past the length of a normal cat's life.

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Speaker 3: I think it's supposed to be like 30 years old

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Speaker 3: or something.

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Speaker 7: 34.

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Speaker 4: 34.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And it's clear.

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Speaker 4: I think it was 34.

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Speaker 3: It's like half dead.

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Speaker 1: And it's like this very obvious, like animatronic cat too.

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Speaker 3: So it's like, it's ridiculous, but I think it's like

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Speaker 3: a good, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I was like, like later kind of chuckling that I'm like,

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Speaker 1: oh yeah, like it's, Again, like another example of like

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Speaker 1: not dealing with reality, you know, like just being and

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Speaker 1: thinking like that character in particular is so like I

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Speaker 1: can bend reality to my will. And like he really

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Speaker 1: keeps believing that right up until the end when he's

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Speaker 1: like thinks that he's just, you know, magicked up.

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Speaker 2: Food in the fridge for everyone. And, you know, he hasn't,

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Speaker 2: but like, he.

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Speaker 3: Really believes in like his power.

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Speaker 1: To do that, which I like, you totally meet people

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Speaker 1: like that. I mean, the tech bros are all like that,

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Speaker 1: you know?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, and that's, and that's the point.

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Speaker 6: It's like, you're just, yes, there's a sort of, um,

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Speaker 6: you know, the magical you know, reality of it all,

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Speaker 6: but also the fact that, you know, the key villains

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Speaker 6: that are doing their, you know, like extracting all the

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Speaker 6: wealth and ruining the planet are counting on the fact

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Speaker 6: that they'll be still living in their bunkers with their

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Speaker 6: families and their friends, right?

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Speaker 4: When we're all fucked and we're all gone, you know?

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Speaker 6: So I think it was like, both worked as a metaphor,

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Speaker 6: but also just, actually, this is exactly what they're doing.

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Speaker 4: Like, They can't, you know, nose.

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Speaker 1: Well, and in a way like that ends up kind

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Speaker 1: of being true, right? Because like the producer guy who's

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Speaker 1: seems like he's doing fine while everyone else is struggling

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Speaker 1: is like the grandson of.

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Speaker 2: The oil tycoon. Right, right.

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Speaker 5: Well.

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Speaker 7: And like, you know, coming back to the kind of

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Speaker 7: cynicism of the movie and again, speaking to my own cynicism. Look,

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Speaker 7: like I think climate accountability journalism is really important.

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Speaker 3: That's what we're all here for. Yeah.

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Speaker 7: But at the end of the play. The, you know,

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Speaker 7: oil billionaire is off at sea. He's been abandoned. Like,

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Speaker 7: everyone hates him. And he, like, he commits suicide. You know,

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Speaker 7: his life is ended. The audience, like, laughs as they

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Speaker 7: watch him, like, slowly drown in the sea.

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Speaker 5: And cheers.

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Speaker 7: But like, so in a way, it's like a fantasy

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Speaker 7: of accountability. Like he got his, but at the end

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Speaker 7: of the movie, everybody like walks out and has to

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Speaker 7: put on their like nuclear gas masks. And to your point,

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Speaker 7: the grandson of the oil billionaire is actually funding the play.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: To me, the ending was like, the cherry on top

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Speaker 6: of the cake, right? Because I thought it was brilliant

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Speaker 6: because first of all, you have this standing ovation, right?

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Speaker 6: And we can talk about how we've seen this in

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Speaker 6: relation to Palestine, for example, crowds at film festivals, standing

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Speaker 6: up and cheering a film about an existential, you know,

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Speaker 6: the climate crisis, the genocide or whatever. And then they

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Speaker 6: go out and everything's back to normal, right? And so,

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Speaker 6: you know, that play was like, it was a celebration

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Speaker 6: of the 25th anniversary of a cult play. So 25

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Speaker 6: years have passed, that whole audience is upstanding. And then

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Speaker 6: they put on, you know, they go out into this

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Speaker 6: dystopian sort of environment. And I'm like, that's literally what

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Speaker 6: we're doing right now. Like, you know, we cheer. we're

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Speaker 6: cheering about like, you know, we celebrate amazing pieces of art,

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Speaker 6: which we should about something can yet, you know, he

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Speaker 6: was saying, is anything going to change?

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Speaker 4: Probably not.

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Speaker 6: You know, I think he was a recognition by, by,

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Speaker 6: you know, that actually, you know, people are just going

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Speaker 6: to get back on with their lives, whether they like

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Speaker 6: this or not.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I know I had heard like some people had.

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Speaker 1: Complained about the fact that like, there's this, this scene

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Speaker 1: where he's like speaking, in the European parliament.

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Speaker 5: Right.

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Speaker 3: Which I thought was excellent. Like so well done.

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Speaker 1: And I saw some people criticizing it saying, you know, Oh,

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Speaker 1: like it went the direction of land man where it

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Speaker 1: like had this guy, you know, saying like, well, you

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Speaker 1: all need oil and gas and dah, dah, dah, dah.

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Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't, I mean, to me, it

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Speaker 1: was very clear that like that was being said in

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Speaker 1: a very cynical way and that it was, you know,

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Speaker 1: not trying to actually sell the audience like.

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Speaker 3: Of Iñárritu' s movie on that point. Like to me, that

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Speaker 3: was super clear. Totally agree.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I was.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I was confused about those those reviews are like, oh,

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Speaker 7: it's so scolding.

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Speaker 3: It was like, but that and it was mostly focused

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Speaker 3: on that scene.

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Speaker 7: It was like, no, but that is literally the narrative

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Speaker 7: of the industry that it's all like consumers demand that's

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Speaker 7: driving this.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: But it actually drove home a key point.

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Speaker 6: I think that actually when we're talking about accountability, in

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Speaker 6: that scene, it's specifically pointing the finger at our elected

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Speaker 6: officials and the role they play, right?

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Speaker 4: That was so good, I thought.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Because he's like, look, all of you have enabled this too.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean, they are the enablers, right?

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Speaker 6: I mean, there's many enablers around why we're in, but

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Speaker 6: no one more than our political leaders, our elected officials,

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Speaker 6: you know? And I thought that was, to me, the

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Speaker 6: point of that scene. I did think it went on

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Speaker 6: a bit too long, that particular scene.

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Speaker 3: I did feel that way. Okay, we get it, director.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 7: Also, one other thought about Tom Cruise in this role.

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Speaker 7: I actually loved that he was cast for this. Not

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Speaker 7: only I think he, you know, played the role well,

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Speaker 7: but also he is this like dark figure of I

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Speaker 7: watched Going Clear this weekend.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's a good double header.

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Speaker 7: Yeah this man is being controlled by this weirdo cult

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Speaker 7: that's like torturing people and um i thought like that

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Speaker 7: just kind of added to i don't know that this

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Speaker 7: was the intent but like this commentary about it all

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Speaker 7: being so rotten to the core um the fact that

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Speaker 7: he would be the main character.

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Speaker 3: Felt like perfect to me i was like yes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah like this was very on the nose that like

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Speaker 1: um shortly before it ended, my phone and everyone else's

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Speaker 1: phone in the, I saw it in Valencia, was like, whoop, whoop,

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Speaker 1: with like an alert for flooding in Valencia.

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Speaker 3: I was like, perfect.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, spot on.

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Speaker 3: Two on the nose. Yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Everybody was like, oh my God, oh my God.

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Speaker 7: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: This is like the first like big climate sort of

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Speaker 6: you know hollywood movie i've seen since um adam mckay's

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Speaker 6: don't look back and i was just reading again the

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Speaker 6: review i wrote for that you know back back then

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Speaker 6: um i i i thought This was much better.

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Speaker 4: Like I really did. I thought, you know, Digger was

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Speaker 4: much better. I thought it was smarter.

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Speaker 6: I think it was sort of, yeah, it wasn't, it

400
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Speaker 6: wasn't as trying as hard.

401
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Speaker 3: In some ways.

402
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Speaker 6: I mean, I just thought we made it a better

403
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Speaker 6: movie generally. Like, what did you guys think?

404
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Speaker 3: I felt Don't Look Up up back.

405
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Speaker 4: Is it Don't Look Up?

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

407
00:19:26,232 --> 00:19:29,792
Speaker 3: Don't Look Back. Close enough. We get the point.

408
00:19:29,811 --> 00:19:31,952
Speaker 4: It's like that Oasis song. It's like the Oasis song.

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00:19:31,972 --> 00:19:34,392
Speaker 4: Keep that in your head. Yes.

410
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Speaker 7: I thought the thing about Don't Look Up is like

411
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Speaker 7: it just it feels much more earnest to me.

412
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Speaker 3: I think for that moment, maybe it made sense.

413
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Speaker 7: And I don't think it was a bad movie necessarily.

414
00:19:45,702 --> 00:19:48,582
Speaker 3: But no, it wasn't bad. Resonated with me much more.

415
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Speaker 3: Do you know what's.

416
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Speaker 1: Funny is that I feel like I feel like a

417
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Speaker 1: lot of people took this earnestly when it wasn't meant

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Speaker 1: that way.

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Speaker 3: Yes, totally. Totally.

420
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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's like, you guys missed the joke.

421
00:20:02,782 --> 00:20:05,382
Speaker 1: Like he was making fun of what you're like. You

422
00:20:05,442 --> 00:20:08,502
Speaker 1: thought he was like trying to do the thing that actually.

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Speaker 2: He was making fun of.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

425
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Speaker 4: It was so funny.

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Speaker 6: Yeah.

427
00:20:11,772 --> 00:20:12,472
Speaker 5: Yeah. It was so funny.

428
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Speaker 6: And I think Don't Look Up, I think you're right, Aline,

429
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Speaker 6: it was like maybe the movie for the moment. And that,

430
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Speaker 6: and you know, just, That was also panned by critics,

431
00:20:21,752 --> 00:20:23,772
Speaker 6: but did really well at the box office. It was

432
00:20:23,811 --> 00:20:26,391
Speaker 6: a Netflix movie, right? And it was like the third biggest,

433
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Speaker 6: you know, most watched movie in Netflix history at the time.

434
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Speaker 6: I think looking back at it now, you can see

435
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Speaker 6: that a climate or accountability reporter was part of that

436
00:20:37,152 --> 00:20:37,652
Speaker 6: movie making.

437
00:20:37,672 --> 00:20:39,552
Speaker 4: Do you know what I mean? Like I think, you know,

438
00:20:39,591 --> 00:20:41,322
Speaker 4: you really can.

439
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Speaker 6: And I think that, I mean, I'm sure they had

440
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Speaker 6: consultants that were climate experts and stuff in Digger, but

441
00:20:47,321 --> 00:20:49,942
Speaker 6: I feel like... It just felt like a movie to me.

442
00:20:50,061 --> 00:20:52,922
Speaker 6: And movies, I mean, movies, it's.

443
00:20:52,861 --> 00:20:55,442
Speaker 4: The entertainment business. They have to be entertaining, right?

444
00:20:55,482 --> 00:20:57,702
Speaker 3: Like, you know, whatever. It was so creative.

445
00:20:57,802 --> 00:20:59,222
Speaker 2: I just thought it was really creative.

446
00:20:59,561 --> 00:21:02,421
Speaker 1: So actually, okay, Adam McKay, this is like part of

447
00:21:02,462 --> 00:21:04,022
Speaker 1: why I was like, oh, we should see this movie

448
00:21:04,042 --> 00:21:07,462
Speaker 1: and talk about it. he on social media was like

449
00:21:07,722 --> 00:21:12,341
Speaker 1: pissed that people, you know, were criticizing this movie. And

450
00:21:12,782 --> 00:21:14,502
Speaker 1: like one of the things he said, so I'm curious

451
00:21:14,522 --> 00:21:18,782
Speaker 1: what you guys think about this as just like an

452
00:21:18,942 --> 00:21:22,232
Speaker 1: operating theory in general. He kind of intimated that like

453
00:21:22,712 --> 00:21:25,111
Speaker 1: if you care about climate and if you want to

454
00:21:25,252 --> 00:21:29,552
Speaker 1: see like climate make its way into more culture, like

455
00:21:29,611 --> 00:21:34,302
Speaker 1: TV and film and whatever, that you should support like

456
00:21:34,422 --> 00:21:36,921
Speaker 1: climate films when they come out, you know, he was

457
00:21:36,982 --> 00:21:38,782
Speaker 1: kind of, it was a little bit like, why didn't

458
00:21:38,802 --> 00:21:40,262
Speaker 1: people show up for this movie?

459
00:21:40,302 --> 00:21:43,702
Speaker 3: Cause this movie was wildly expensive, right? It took 10 years.

460
00:21:43,722 --> 00:21:46,482
Speaker 6: It was $ 200 million.

461
00:21:46,982 --> 00:21:49,111
Speaker 1: And I think the first weekend at the box office,

462
00:21:49,182 --> 00:21:52,492
Speaker 1: it cleared like 9 million, which is really bad for

463
00:21:52,652 --> 00:21:55,912
Speaker 1: a film of that size, starring Tom Cruise, all of that.

464
00:21:55,952 --> 00:21:56,132
Speaker 5: Right.

465
00:21:56,831 --> 00:21:59,212
Speaker 3: Um, so he was kind of like, Oh, all.

466
00:21:59,152 --> 00:22:03,512
Speaker 1: These like you know, armchair critics are like panning this

467
00:22:03,552 --> 00:22:05,792
Speaker 1: movie and they don't get it. And also like people

468
00:22:05,831 --> 00:22:08,392
Speaker 1: should show up to support stuff like this. And, and

469
00:22:08,452 --> 00:22:10,882
Speaker 1: kind of like, because it is true. Like, I think

470
00:22:10,922 --> 00:22:12,482
Speaker 1: this happened when, I don't know if you guys watched

471
00:22:12,542 --> 00:22:15,522
Speaker 1: the Apple show extrapolations when it came out.

472
00:22:15,542 --> 00:22:17,831
Speaker 3: Oh, I really didn't like it.

473
00:22:17,831 --> 00:22:18,372
Speaker 4: I'm sorry.

474
00:22:19,032 --> 00:22:19,992
Speaker 3: OK, I'm like, should I?

475
00:22:20,311 --> 00:22:22,292
Speaker 1: Hashtag sorry to all the people who made it. But

476
00:22:22,351 --> 00:22:23,711
Speaker 1: it was a similar kind of thing where it had

477
00:22:23,752 --> 00:22:26,192
Speaker 1: this massive budget and had so many famous people.

478
00:22:26,272 --> 00:22:28,611
Speaker 3: And it was like Meryl Streep.

479
00:22:28,672 --> 00:22:31,462
Speaker 1: And I mean, just like so every famous person had,

480
00:22:32,091 --> 00:22:34,712
Speaker 1: you know, was in one of these episodes and it

481
00:22:34,752 --> 00:22:36,012
Speaker 1: just didn't do well.

482
00:22:36,132 --> 00:22:38,712
Speaker 3: And so for a good couple of years after that.

483
00:22:39,351 --> 00:22:42,361
Speaker 1: All the studios were like, nobody wants to see these

484
00:22:42,542 --> 00:22:45,601
Speaker 1: shows and films, right? And so I think the concern

485
00:22:45,642 --> 00:22:49,122
Speaker 1: is that that will happen again because this film didn't

486
00:22:49,162 --> 00:22:52,222
Speaker 1: do well. But yeah, I don't know. I don't know

487
00:22:52,242 --> 00:22:55,382
Speaker 1: what you guys think about that. I mean, I think

488
00:22:55,782 --> 00:22:59,451
Speaker 1: we should support people's efforts. Do you know what I mean?

489
00:22:59,571 --> 00:23:02,972
Speaker 6: I mean, culture and artists have always, there's always been

490
00:23:03,091 --> 00:23:07,701
Speaker 6: artists that have responded to different types of challenges and

491
00:23:07,762 --> 00:23:10,241
Speaker 6: social injustices, things they see around them in the world, right?

492
00:23:10,282 --> 00:23:13,101
Speaker 4: And others that haven't, you know? So, and we want that, right?

493
00:23:13,142 --> 00:23:16,381
Speaker 6: We want, you know, we want our authors and painters

494
00:23:16,462 --> 00:23:19,372
Speaker 6: and musicians and filmmakers, right, to respond to that.

495
00:23:20,012 --> 00:23:20,212
Speaker 1: But....

496
00:23:22,532 --> 00:23:25,192
Speaker 6: There is a difference between that and supporting and encouraging

497
00:23:25,232 --> 00:23:27,552
Speaker 6: that and saying we have to like everything because, you know,

498
00:23:27,632 --> 00:23:29,532
Speaker 6: I come back to the point.

499
00:23:29,831 --> 00:23:31,292
Speaker 4: It's got to be entertaining, right?

500
00:23:31,331 --> 00:23:33,672
Speaker 6: You know, Aline and I went to see Neil Young

501
00:23:33,692 --> 00:23:35,561
Speaker 6: on Long Island last year.

502
00:23:35,581 --> 00:23:35,651
Speaker 1: Yes.

503
00:23:37,682 --> 00:23:42,422
Speaker 6: I love the ultimate protest artist who, by the way,

504
00:23:42,482 --> 00:23:44,581
Speaker 6: said Digger was the best film he's ever seen.

505
00:23:45,382 --> 00:23:46,561
Speaker 3: Yes, Neil.

506
00:23:46,821 --> 00:23:49,921
Speaker 6: But we went to see him after Neil Young had

507
00:23:49,962 --> 00:23:52,932
Speaker 6: just released his latest album, which was not good.

508
00:23:52,952 --> 00:23:53,992
Speaker 4: I'm just going to say.

509
00:23:55,412 --> 00:24:01,822
Speaker 6: Still protesting, still angry, lacking in tunes. But like, you know,

510
00:24:02,101 --> 00:24:03,702
Speaker 6: me and Ali were quite worried that he was going

511
00:24:03,722 --> 00:24:05,802
Speaker 6: to play like this whole new album. He didn't. But

512
00:24:05,922 --> 00:24:09,081
Speaker 6: I was so disappointed he didn't play Let's Roll Again.

513
00:24:09,111 --> 00:24:09,191
Speaker 5: Yeah.

514
00:24:09,642 --> 00:24:11,992
Speaker 6: Which is his song about electric vehicles.

515
00:24:12,012 --> 00:24:13,631
Speaker 4: It's sort of.

516
00:24:13,672 --> 00:24:17,992
Speaker 6: Like, it adapts the melody of Woody Guthrie's This Land

517
00:24:18,032 --> 00:24:21,131
Speaker 6: is Your Land. And it has the classic line, if

518
00:24:21,172 --> 00:24:23,211
Speaker 6: you're a fascist, then get a Tesla.

519
00:24:25,811 --> 00:24:27,852
Speaker 4: It's so good. It's so good.

520
00:24:27,972 --> 00:24:28,831
Speaker 3: Oh my God.

521
00:24:28,992 --> 00:24:32,171
Speaker 4: Incredible. It's so good. It's such an anthem and he

522
00:24:32,212 --> 00:24:32,681
Speaker 4: didn't play it.

523
00:24:32,672 --> 00:24:33,192
Speaker 3: We were gutted.

524
00:24:33,452 --> 00:24:35,502
Speaker 4: But you know that, for example, when he wrote that.

525
00:24:35,402 --> 00:24:37,161
Speaker 6: Song, but also a couple of years before that, he'd

526
00:24:37,182 --> 00:24:40,622
Speaker 6: written a song called Big Crime about Trump They were

527
00:24:41,351 --> 00:24:44,451
Speaker 6: subjectively not very good songs, but they make, you know,

528
00:24:45,212 --> 00:24:47,752
Speaker 6: because it's Neil Young and he was like reacting to

529
00:24:47,851 --> 00:24:50,452
Speaker 6: injustices and things that are going on. He didn't just

530
00:24:50,552 --> 00:24:52,821
Speaker 6: make the news. He didn't just make the Guardian and

531
00:24:52,861 --> 00:24:55,542
Speaker 6: LA Times, et cetera. He was, you know, big story

532
00:24:55,581 --> 00:24:58,662
Speaker 6: in variety, Rolling Stone, NME, you know, and it's like,

533
00:24:59,002 --> 00:25:01,022
Speaker 6: that has to be a good thing, right? Like you're

534
00:25:01,042 --> 00:25:04,322
Speaker 6: trying to engage people in something. You're not just going

535
00:25:04,341 --> 00:25:06,631
Speaker 6: to do it through documentaries and news, right?

536
00:25:06,652 --> 00:25:07,992
Speaker 4: Like, and so, yeah, I don't know.

537
00:25:08,012 --> 00:25:08,192
Speaker 1: Yeah.

538
00:25:08,412 --> 00:25:08,792
Speaker 4: Yeah.

539
00:25:09,212 --> 00:25:09,472
Speaker 1: Yeah.

540
00:25:10,732 --> 00:25:14,142
Speaker 7: Yeah, I think, I mean, this idea that you should

541
00:25:14,182 --> 00:25:16,902
Speaker 7: go see a climate movie just because it's a climate movie.

542
00:25:16,942 --> 00:25:20,091
Speaker 7: I mean, I actually like Digger, so I think people

543
00:25:20,132 --> 00:25:25,641
Speaker 7: should see it because it's... Interesting. And but if it

544
00:25:25,782 --> 00:25:30,642
Speaker 7: was a bad movie, if there wasn't anything interesting happening there,

545
00:25:30,662 --> 00:25:33,901
Speaker 7: I don't personally feel like I would have any obligation

546
00:25:33,942 --> 00:25:36,542
Speaker 7: to go see it. If if the if the only

547
00:25:36,642 --> 00:25:40,152
Speaker 7: point in doing a movie that has a climate narrative

548
00:25:40,331 --> 00:25:43,772
Speaker 7: is that you want it to like be a blockbuster hit,

549
00:25:43,831 --> 00:25:46,871
Speaker 7: like at what point are we starting to like be

550
00:25:46,912 --> 00:25:51,192
Speaker 7: talking about propaganda? You know, where's the line there?

551
00:25:51,512 --> 00:25:53,792
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't want to walk. I mean, that's not

552
00:25:53,912 --> 00:25:55,052
Speaker 3: interesting to me.

553
00:25:55,192 --> 00:26:01,302
Speaker 7: Like if it's like art about if it's art about

554
00:26:01,341 --> 00:26:03,042
Speaker 7: the climate crisis and it makes me think about it

555
00:26:03,061 --> 00:26:04,682
Speaker 7: in a new in a new way, I'm.

556
00:26:04,621 --> 00:26:05,462
Speaker 3: Interested in that.

557
00:26:05,482 --> 00:26:05,962
Speaker 6: Yeah.

558
00:26:06,922 --> 00:26:08,762
Speaker 7: I do think music is a little different because there

559
00:26:08,922 --> 00:26:13,572
Speaker 7: is something inherently cathartic about listening to even like goofy

560
00:26:13,811 --> 00:26:21,292
Speaker 7: ass political music. Like I'm from Minneapolis, the Bruce Springsteen

561
00:26:21,331 --> 00:26:25,502
Speaker 7: Streets of Minneapolis song. I personally think it is quite corny,

562
00:26:25,861 --> 00:26:28,002
Speaker 7: but I love to walk around being like.

563
00:26:28,042 --> 00:26:31,161
Speaker 3: In the streets of Minneapolis.

564
00:26:31,202 --> 00:26:31,282
Speaker 6: Yeah.

565
00:26:32,762 --> 00:26:33,522
Speaker 3: It makes me feel good.

566
00:26:33,861 --> 00:26:36,701
Speaker 7: So I think there's something different about music and the

567
00:26:36,742 --> 00:26:40,272
Speaker 7: value that that has where it comes to movement stuff.

568
00:26:41,982 --> 00:26:43,412
Speaker 3: But yeah, I don't know. What do you think, Amy?

569
00:26:43,432 --> 00:26:44,951
Speaker 3: I don't know.

570
00:26:45,071 --> 00:26:47,892
Speaker 1: I'm really torn between the idea of this as like

571
00:26:47,912 --> 00:26:51,331
Speaker 1: a movement. like a solidarity move, you know, of like,

572
00:26:51,452 --> 00:26:53,091
Speaker 1: all right, I'm going to like give it a shot

573
00:26:53,132 --> 00:26:55,872
Speaker 1: because there isn't a lot of this stuff getting made.

574
00:26:55,952 --> 00:26:58,411
Speaker 1: And like, I do want there to be enough of

575
00:26:58,492 --> 00:27:03,081
Speaker 1: a variety that there can be like a spectrum, like

576
00:27:03,402 --> 00:27:05,982
Speaker 1: almost every other, I mean, we have how many like

577
00:27:06,682 --> 00:27:10,582
Speaker 1: documentaries about fraudulent tech people at the moment?

578
00:27:10,702 --> 00:27:11,802
Speaker 3: Like, Oh my God.

579
00:27:11,821 --> 00:27:12,421
Speaker 2: Seriously.

580
00:27:12,502 --> 00:27:12,702
Speaker 5: Yeah.

581
00:27:12,722 --> 00:27:18,202
Speaker 1: Many. So I'm, I'm like annoyed that there isn't more,

582
00:27:18,302 --> 00:27:20,762
Speaker 1: but I also like, I just don't love the idea

583
00:27:20,922 --> 00:27:25,721
Speaker 1: of like, um, I sort of chafe at it, but

584
00:27:25,762 --> 00:27:27,621
Speaker 1: at the same time I'm like, well, the only reason

585
00:27:27,702 --> 00:27:31,111
Speaker 1: that that conversation is even happening is that like, there's

586
00:27:31,142 --> 00:27:36,292
Speaker 1: so few of these things getting made that like every

587
00:27:36,552 --> 00:27:39,171
Speaker 1: one that doesn't do well gets held up as the

588
00:27:39,232 --> 00:27:41,872
Speaker 1: reason for like five more not to get made, you know?

589
00:27:41,892 --> 00:27:46,101
Speaker 6: Um, I mean, I do think there's a difference though

590
00:27:46,162 --> 00:27:52,622
Speaker 6: between like the creative process and creating art and solidarity, right?

591
00:27:52,642 --> 00:27:54,162
Speaker 4: Like I think, you know, like.

592
00:27:54,222 --> 00:28:00,372
Speaker 6: Expecting our artists to express and show solidarity. And I think,

593
00:28:00,402 --> 00:28:02,692
Speaker 6: you know, I think Palestine's a really good example of

594
00:28:02,752 --> 00:28:05,952
Speaker 6: this because it's, you know, it's taken 70 plus years

595
00:28:06,091 --> 00:28:10,851
Speaker 6: and a genocide, but now it is completely unacceptable for anyone,

596
00:28:11,091 --> 00:28:12,911
Speaker 6: any artist in any genre.

597
00:28:12,632 --> 00:28:15,022
Speaker 4: To, to be silent on Palestine, right?

598
00:28:15,101 --> 00:28:17,042
Speaker 6: And I think, you know, and, And, you know, are

599
00:28:17,061 --> 00:28:19,161
Speaker 6: we going to get to the point where, you know,

600
00:28:19,182 --> 00:28:22,462
Speaker 6: climate change, which is like the existential threat to the

601
00:28:22,502 --> 00:28:25,082
Speaker 6: whole planet, becomes that issue? Like we're a long, long

602
00:28:25,121 --> 00:28:27,482
Speaker 6: way from that, you know. But I do think Palestine

603
00:28:27,522 --> 00:28:28,701
Speaker 6: is an interesting example.

604
00:28:28,742 --> 00:28:30,682
Speaker 4: I mean, like, you know. That's an interesting way to

605
00:28:30,702 --> 00:28:31,462
Speaker 4: think about it.

606
00:28:31,522 --> 00:28:32,242
Speaker 3: Yeah.

607
00:28:32,361 --> 00:28:32,742
Speaker 6: Yeah.

608
00:28:32,982 --> 00:28:34,522
Speaker 3: Sorry, you were saying kneecap?

609
00:28:34,841 --> 00:28:36,422
Speaker 4: No, I just said, yeah, kneecap.

610
00:28:36,532 --> 00:28:39,181
Speaker 6: A group that started out with really about, you know,

611
00:28:39,292 --> 00:28:44,652
Speaker 6: revitalizing or reclaiming the Irish language and talking about British colonialism.

612
00:28:45,152 --> 00:28:49,332
Speaker 6: and have become incredibly important spokespeople in Palestine. I mean,

613
00:28:49,392 --> 00:28:51,612
Speaker 6: one of the group members was charged under the Terrorism

614
00:28:51,672 --> 00:28:54,812
Speaker 6: Act in the UK, you know, and then actually they

615
00:28:54,832 --> 00:28:56,952
Speaker 6: were in Mexico City last week playing and they were

616
00:28:57,012 --> 00:28:59,912
Speaker 6: interviewed by Chilango Radio. And it was super interesting because

617
00:28:59,932 --> 00:29:01,952
Speaker 6: he asked them that you've traveled to all these different

618
00:29:01,972 --> 00:29:04,482
Speaker 6: places in the world, like what place have you liked best?

619
00:29:04,522 --> 00:29:05,182
Speaker 4: What have you learned?

620
00:29:05,502 --> 00:29:08,842
Speaker 6: And their answer was actually about how much they've learned

621
00:29:08,922 --> 00:29:11,921
Speaker 6: from indigenous people and First Nations people around the world.

622
00:29:12,312 --> 00:29:15,352
Speaker 6: And they talk just in quite a clumsy way, but

623
00:29:15,412 --> 00:29:19,232
Speaker 6: he talked about, you know, indigenous people and natural resources

624
00:29:19,272 --> 00:29:21,312
Speaker 6: and how climate change is making that much harder. And

625
00:29:21,372 --> 00:29:25,922
Speaker 6: I just thought this is a huge step, right? That

626
00:29:25,942 --> 00:29:29,442
Speaker 6: is about actually him, someone, a group that is hugely

627
00:29:29,462 --> 00:29:34,342
Speaker 6: influential right now, making connections between colonialism and what's happening

628
00:29:34,382 --> 00:29:35,661
Speaker 6: in Ireland and Palestine today.

629
00:29:35,982 --> 00:29:38,372
Speaker 4: With natural resources and climate change.

630
00:29:38,832 --> 00:29:41,472
Speaker 6: And it is a step-by-step process. And I think that,

631
00:29:41,512 --> 00:29:44,532
Speaker 6: you know, we want more from that, from our culture.

632
00:29:44,552 --> 00:29:47,172
Speaker 6: We want, you know, we want art to be inspired

633
00:29:47,192 --> 00:29:50,972
Speaker 6: by climate change and climate, whatever, like, you know, village.

634
00:29:51,362 --> 00:29:51,902
Speaker 4: Or whatever.

635
00:29:52,222 --> 00:29:56,462
Speaker 6: But the solidarity, I think, is really important as well. Yeah.

636
00:29:57,862 --> 00:30:01,132
Speaker 1: I want to ask each of you if there is

637
00:30:01,152 --> 00:30:04,572
Speaker 1: a piece of content, either about climate or, like, another

638
00:30:04,592 --> 00:30:09,112
Speaker 1: sort of, like, social justice or, like, socially aware piece

639
00:30:09,712 --> 00:30:13,472
Speaker 1: you know, movie or film or song or whatever that

640
00:30:13,532 --> 00:30:16,542
Speaker 1: you like genuinely like and recommend and like, you know,

641
00:30:16,602 --> 00:30:18,042
Speaker 1: would tell people to go and check out?

642
00:30:19,222 --> 00:30:21,142
Speaker 3: Well, there's so many good movies out right now.

643
00:30:21,442 --> 00:30:23,622
Speaker 7: And so I'll just go with a couple that I

644
00:30:23,662 --> 00:30:31,522
Speaker 7: saw recently over this very weekend. So one was History

645
00:30:31,562 --> 00:30:34,242
Speaker 7: of Concrete, the John Wilson documentary.

646
00:30:34,332 --> 00:30:35,692
Speaker 3: I really want to see it.

647
00:30:35,872 --> 00:30:36,211
Speaker 6: Yes.

648
00:30:36,512 --> 00:30:36,832
Speaker 5: Okay.

649
00:30:37,092 --> 00:30:38,132
Speaker 2: Here's what I will say.

650
00:30:38,232 --> 00:30:41,652
Speaker 3: I will say it's, It's about concrete. Concrete.

651
00:30:41,952 --> 00:30:45,212
Speaker 7: And this is one that I have to, I'm sorry,

652
00:30:45,252 --> 00:30:47,512
Speaker 7: John Wilson, I think this could have been a little shorter.

653
00:30:47,592 --> 00:30:50,402
Speaker 3: There was a point where I'm like, okay, I get it.

654
00:30:50,702 --> 00:30:51,682
Speaker 3: I get it. Concrete.

655
00:30:51,742 --> 00:30:52,062
Speaker 5: Wow.

656
00:30:52,282 --> 00:30:52,962
Speaker 1: Yeah.

657
00:30:53,162 --> 00:30:55,921
Speaker 7: But then like there's some twists and turns and it

658
00:30:55,962 --> 00:30:57,862
Speaker 7: becomes like really hilarious.

659
00:30:57,922 --> 00:31:00,102
Speaker 3: Like, you know, you ultimately get to that like.

660
00:31:00,882 --> 00:31:03,952
Speaker 7: For people who watched How To with John Wilson, you

661
00:31:04,052 --> 00:31:07,032
Speaker 7: meet these characters that take these turns that you really

662
00:31:07,072 --> 00:31:07,692
Speaker 7: don't expect.

663
00:31:08,052 --> 00:31:10,441
Speaker 3: And I have to say, it's not on.

664
00:31:10,412 --> 00:31:15,582
Speaker 7: Its face an environmental movie, but Making Concrete is... One

665
00:31:15,602 --> 00:31:19,182
Speaker 7: of the biggest contributors to, you know, carbon emissions.

666
00:31:19,632 --> 00:31:21,852
Speaker 4: And water shortages.

667
00:31:21,932 --> 00:31:23,692
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's terrible for the environment.

668
00:31:23,772 --> 00:31:27,192
Speaker 7: And like, you know, the story of concrete really starts

669
00:31:27,312 --> 00:31:32,642
Speaker 7: with John Wilson's basement flooding all the time.

670
00:31:32,662 --> 00:31:35,332
Speaker 3: Interesting. So there's like ways that it comes in.

671
00:31:36,252 --> 00:31:36,552
Speaker 1: Yeah.

672
00:31:36,632 --> 00:31:40,802
Speaker 7: And like the environmental impact of like the dust for

673
00:31:40,952 --> 00:31:44,142
Speaker 7: concrete recycling is comes into the narrative.

674
00:31:44,162 --> 00:31:45,782
Speaker 3: And it like it just kind of keeps creeping.

675
00:31:45,862 --> 00:31:48,842
Speaker 7: These environmental questions keep kind of like popping up, but

676
00:31:49,002 --> 00:31:51,661
Speaker 7: not in a like super in your face way.

677
00:31:52,002 --> 00:31:53,522
Speaker 3: But in this way, again, that.

678
00:31:53,422 --> 00:31:55,911
Speaker 7: Feels very like how to with John Wilson, where it

679
00:31:55,962 --> 00:31:58,132
Speaker 7: kind of like changed the way I see the city.

680
00:31:58,212 --> 00:32:00,792
Speaker 3: Now I'm like, oh, concrete everywhere. It's just like ruining

681
00:32:00,832 --> 00:32:03,832
Speaker 3: the world. It's just going to fall apart. And also like.

682
00:32:04,592 --> 00:32:06,852
Speaker 7: All those little dots all over the place are gum.

683
00:32:07,052 --> 00:32:12,192
Speaker 7: And I didn't want to know that. It's really gross.

684
00:32:13,082 --> 00:32:16,082
Speaker 7: The other one that I saw, another documentary that hopefully

685
00:32:16,122 --> 00:32:19,022
Speaker 7: will have wider distribution at some point, but it's this

686
00:32:19,082 --> 00:32:24,122
Speaker 7: film called The Great Experiment. And it's these two filmmakers,

687
00:32:25,102 --> 00:32:30,592
Speaker 7: Steve Ming and Eric Metzger. Um, it's really about like

688
00:32:30,652 --> 00:32:34,512
Speaker 7: the four Trump's first four years in office. And it's

689
00:32:34,532 --> 00:32:36,711
Speaker 7: kind of like they're traveling around the U S it's

690
00:32:36,752 --> 00:32:37,392
Speaker 7: in black and white.

691
00:32:37,412 --> 00:32:38,742
Speaker 3: It's very beautifully shot.

692
00:32:39,102 --> 00:32:43,602
Speaker 7: And, um, it's just like kind of, uh, filming people

693
00:32:43,742 --> 00:32:48,691
Speaker 7: from both sides of this, like polarized United States, um,

694
00:32:49,732 --> 00:32:52,232
Speaker 7: Of that era, which now feels sort of like vintage.

695
00:32:52,292 --> 00:32:54,652
Speaker 7: And I'm like, it was like a weird kind of

696
00:32:54,732 --> 00:32:58,712
Speaker 7: like trauma slash nostalgia slash wasn't that quaint.

697
00:32:59,932 --> 00:33:00,252
Speaker 5: But yeah.

698
00:33:00,372 --> 00:33:03,302
Speaker 3: And again, like climate change is not necessarily at the center,

699
00:33:03,362 --> 00:33:04,662
Speaker 3: but there's this really....

700
00:33:05,692 --> 00:33:09,672
Speaker 7: They do a good job of sort of humanizing people

701
00:33:09,932 --> 00:33:12,502
Speaker 7: on either end of the spectrum. So there's this like

702
00:33:12,762 --> 00:33:15,962
Speaker 7: protest scene where these Antifa kids like run into each

703
00:33:16,022 --> 00:33:18,442
Speaker 7: other and then they're just like chit-chatting and you're like, oh,

704
00:33:18,642 --> 00:33:19,882
Speaker 7: you guys are just like kids.

705
00:33:19,902 --> 00:33:20,502
Speaker 3: Normal kids.

706
00:33:20,542 --> 00:33:23,902
Speaker 7: You know, just the way that they're interacting is really

707
00:33:23,962 --> 00:33:26,161
Speaker 7: kind of endearing. And, you know, but one of them

708
00:33:26,202 --> 00:33:28,222
Speaker 7: goes on a rant about the climate crisis. And I

709
00:33:28,222 --> 00:33:29,681
Speaker 7: was like, wow, this is very accurate.

710
00:33:29,702 --> 00:33:30,182
Speaker 5: Yeah.

711
00:33:34,222 --> 00:33:37,322
Speaker 3: Okay, I want to say something about Armageddon. Okay. And

712
00:33:37,362 --> 00:33:38,972
Speaker 3: then I want to hear what other people.

713
00:33:38,642 --> 00:33:38,931
Speaker 7: Have to say.

714
00:33:38,952 --> 00:33:41,532
Speaker 3: The movie Armageddon starring Ben Affleck? Yes, the movie Armageddon.

715
00:33:41,712 --> 00:33:41,952
Speaker 5: Okay.

716
00:33:41,992 --> 00:33:47,342
Speaker 3: Yes, starring Ben Affleck, who enjoyed Digger, I hear. Oh, interesting.

717
00:33:47,362 --> 00:33:47,622
Speaker 5: Okay.

718
00:33:47,862 --> 00:33:48,002
Speaker 1: Mm-hmm.

719
00:33:48,702 --> 00:33:50,142
Speaker 7: OK, I don't know if you guys have seen that

720
00:33:50,162 --> 00:33:50,742
Speaker 7: movie recently.

721
00:33:50,762 --> 00:33:53,482
Speaker 3: I was sick and I had norovirus.

722
00:33:53,562 --> 00:33:57,882
Speaker 7: And so I was like deeply ill watching Armageddon on

723
00:33:57,922 --> 00:34:02,552
Speaker 7: TV in a hotel room. And I did not realize

724
00:34:02,892 --> 00:34:06,171
Speaker 7: what a like win that must have been for the

725
00:34:06,312 --> 00:34:07,112
Speaker 7: oil industry.

726
00:34:07,252 --> 00:34:10,872
Speaker 3: You know, like these oil drillers. go to an.

727
00:34:11,032 --> 00:34:15,352
Speaker 7: Asteroid and save the earth by drilling into the ass. Like,

728
00:34:15,812 --> 00:34:18,102
Speaker 7: and I don't think, I don't know that there was

729
00:34:18,232 --> 00:34:21,402
Speaker 7: industry funding for that. But in that moment in time,

730
00:34:21,502 --> 00:34:24,262
Speaker 7: the makers of that movie were like, this is what

731
00:34:24,602 --> 00:34:28,361
Speaker 7: will resonate with America. And I don't think that that

732
00:34:28,422 --> 00:34:30,662
Speaker 7: would be made in the same way now. Or if

733
00:34:30,772 --> 00:34:34,852
Speaker 7: it was, it would be like, clearly with an idea

734
00:34:34,931 --> 00:34:38,091
Speaker 7: of appealing to a certain set of the population. Like

735
00:34:38,152 --> 00:34:40,071
Speaker 7: to me watching that, I'm like, I think things have

736
00:34:40,132 --> 00:34:43,381
Speaker 7: changed a little bit where I don't know that that

737
00:34:43,471 --> 00:34:46,381
Speaker 7: would have, because that wasn't, I don't think anyone saw

738
00:34:46,422 --> 00:34:48,161
Speaker 7: that and was like, wow, this is so political. But

739
00:34:48,221 --> 00:34:50,381
Speaker 7: like watching it now, I'm like, it kind of is.

740
00:34:50,922 --> 00:34:53,922
Speaker 4: What year was that? What year did that come out?

741
00:34:54,122 --> 00:34:56,721
Speaker 3: I don't remember. I can look it up right now.

742
00:34:57,022 --> 00:34:59,732
Speaker 6: I've never seen it, but I bet you one of

743
00:34:59,951 --> 00:35:03,572
Speaker 6: Drilled's very smart listeners will know whether there was fossil

744
00:35:03,592 --> 00:35:04,471
Speaker 6: fuel funding in.

745
00:35:04,431 --> 00:35:04,892
Speaker 3: That or not.

746
00:35:04,911 --> 00:35:06,352
Speaker 1: We're going to get an email.

747
00:35:06,632 --> 00:35:09,681
Speaker 4: So please, write in and tell us. Just save us

748
00:35:09,701 --> 00:35:11,762
Speaker 4: some Googling.

749
00:35:11,762 --> 00:35:12,562
Speaker 3: 1998, that was the year.

750
00:35:12,582 --> 00:35:13,142
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.

751
00:35:13,262 --> 00:35:18,091
Speaker 3: So right after Kyoto, of course there was oil money. Yeah,

752
00:35:18,132 --> 00:35:22,452
Speaker 3: maybe so. We need to do an investigation, perhaps. Oh

753
00:35:22,491 --> 00:35:23,822
Speaker 3: my God. Yes.

754
00:35:24,302 --> 00:35:26,102
Speaker 1: I had never thought about it, but you're right.

755
00:35:26,262 --> 00:35:29,142
Speaker 3: We got to revisit the movie Armageddon in that context.

756
00:35:29,262 --> 00:35:29,602
Speaker 5: Yeah.

757
00:35:29,701 --> 00:35:32,341
Speaker 3: That's so funny. All right, Nina, do you have any?

758
00:35:34,022 --> 00:35:37,672
Speaker 6: Yeah, I'm going to just mention a couple of movies

759
00:35:37,752 --> 00:35:40,152
Speaker 6: on Palestine because everyone's talking about Naza.

760
00:35:40,212 --> 00:35:43,932
Speaker 3: I'm going to go see it on Wednesday, I think. Yeah,

761
00:35:44,352 --> 00:35:44,892
Speaker 3: I'm excited.

762
00:35:45,672 --> 00:35:46,431
Speaker 4: Take a handkerchief.

763
00:35:47,772 --> 00:35:50,531
Speaker 6: I mean, two movies that I think didn't get the

764
00:35:50,572 --> 00:35:53,832
Speaker 6: same attention but should have. No Other Land, which actually

765
00:35:53,872 --> 00:35:57,482
Speaker 6: I saw with Aline when we were neighbours.

766
00:35:57,762 --> 00:35:59,282
Speaker 4: And that is a documentary.

767
00:35:59,462 --> 00:36:01,462
Speaker 6: And it's not, I mean, it's not about the climate crisis,

768
00:36:01,482 --> 00:36:04,911
Speaker 6: but it absolutely is. It's on the, you know, it's

769
00:36:05,012 --> 00:36:09,532
Speaker 6: about Israel's ecocide and environmental destruction of the occupied West Bank,

770
00:36:09,872 --> 00:36:14,181
Speaker 6: which was brilliant. And the voice of Hind Rajab, which

771
00:36:14,262 --> 00:36:17,422
Speaker 6: was a dramatization of the real life events of a

772
00:36:17,622 --> 00:36:21,591
Speaker 6: little five-year-old Hind Rajab who was murdered by Israel.

773
00:36:21,672 --> 00:36:22,031
Speaker 4: And it was.

774
00:36:22,652 --> 00:36:27,112
Speaker 6: I mean, both of them were brilliant films, are brilliant films,

775
00:36:27,172 --> 00:36:28,352
Speaker 6: and people should go and see them.

776
00:36:28,951 --> 00:36:31,172
Speaker 4: And just one old school recommendation.

777
00:36:31,212 --> 00:36:35,062
Speaker 6: I'm actually reading right now the autobiography of Sinead O'Connor,

778
00:36:35,082 --> 00:36:39,941
Speaker 6: the fantastic Irish singer. And she, I mean, she wrote

779
00:36:39,982 --> 00:36:42,942
Speaker 6: a lot of, she often wrote songs that, music that was,

780
00:36:42,962 --> 00:36:45,661
Speaker 6: you know, like, you know, a reaction to what was

781
00:36:45,701 --> 00:36:48,742
Speaker 6: going on. And she has a Beautiful song called Black

782
00:36:48,762 --> 00:36:51,792
Speaker 6: Boys on Mopeds. And it was a story of these

783
00:36:51,852 --> 00:36:55,032
Speaker 6: black boys that were killed by police in the UK

784
00:36:55,072 --> 00:37:00,931
Speaker 6: during the Thatcher administration. And it's just a beautiful song. Yeah,

785
00:37:01,072 --> 00:37:01,982
Speaker 6: everyone should listen to it.

786
00:37:02,092 --> 00:37:05,741
Speaker 1: Fun fact, the song Nothing Compares to You is actually

787
00:37:05,782 --> 00:37:07,221
Speaker 1: a ballad to Mother Earth.

788
00:37:07,342 --> 00:37:11,401
Speaker 3: I'm totally kidding. I'm totally kidding. It's not. I'm pretty

789
00:37:11,422 --> 00:37:13,562
Speaker 3: sure Prince wrote that, I will say, though.

790
00:37:13,741 --> 00:37:14,301
Speaker 4: It's a Prince song.

791
00:37:14,322 --> 00:37:18,172
Speaker 3: Minneapolis connection here. But it is my karaoke song, and

792
00:37:18,212 --> 00:37:19,812
Speaker 3: that is true. What about you, Amy?

793
00:37:19,852 --> 00:37:25,652
Speaker 1: Mine is actually a climate show, and I keep talking

794
00:37:25,692 --> 00:37:29,152
Speaker 1: about it to everyone because... Very few people have seen it,

795
00:37:29,192 --> 00:37:32,192
Speaker 1: but I think it's so fucking good. Just dealing with

796
00:37:32,232 --> 00:37:32,991
Speaker 1: my cat here.

797
00:37:35,032 --> 00:37:36,352
Speaker 4: How old is she?

798
00:37:36,352 --> 00:37:36,832
Speaker 5: 32?

799
00:37:36,832 --> 00:37:39,392
Speaker 2: She's 32 and she's still going strong.

800
00:37:41,812 --> 00:37:47,672
Speaker 1: It's called Families Like Ours and it's by this Danish filmmaker.

801
00:37:47,792 --> 00:37:48,631
Speaker 3: Actually, like he was.

802
00:37:48,971 --> 00:37:51,411
Speaker 1: I don't know if you guys were film nerds in

803
00:37:51,431 --> 00:37:51,971
Speaker 1: the early 2000s, but.

804
00:37:54,431 --> 00:37:57,202
Speaker 1: There was this group of filmmakers called the Dogma Filmmakers.

805
00:37:57,221 --> 00:37:59,761
Speaker 1: It was like Lars von Trier and I don't know.

806
00:38:00,161 --> 00:38:02,741
Speaker 1: They were all like, we're going to not use CGI

807
00:38:02,822 --> 00:38:05,502
Speaker 1: and we're going to like, you know, only shoot on

808
00:38:05,542 --> 00:38:08,502
Speaker 1: real film and all of that kind of thing. And

809
00:38:08,562 --> 00:38:11,741
Speaker 1: this guy was one of them. And he made one

810
00:38:11,782 --> 00:38:14,982
Speaker 1: of my all time favorite movies. It's called The Celebration.

811
00:38:15,042 --> 00:38:19,731
Speaker 1: It's about a very dysfunctional family, like getting together for,

812
00:38:20,212 --> 00:38:22,432
Speaker 1: you know, the patriarch's birthday or whatever.

813
00:38:22,852 --> 00:38:23,172
Speaker 3: Anyway.

814
00:38:24,272 --> 00:38:27,172
Speaker 1: This show is like in the first two minutes, you

815
00:38:27,212 --> 00:38:30,792
Speaker 1: learn that like the basic premise is that the country

816
00:38:30,832 --> 00:38:34,151
Speaker 1: of Denmark has decided that rather than continue to spend

817
00:38:34,192 --> 00:38:37,051
Speaker 1: money on building up sea walls and stuff, they're going

818
00:38:37,072 --> 00:38:39,611
Speaker 1: to just use all of the money left in their

819
00:38:39,652 --> 00:38:44,752
Speaker 1: coffers to like re like rehouse everyone in other places

820
00:38:44,951 --> 00:38:47,912
Speaker 1: and like shut down the country. And so the whole

821
00:38:48,482 --> 00:38:50,781
Speaker 1: Like it's a whole like family drama and there's all

822
00:38:50,802 --> 00:38:53,102
Speaker 1: this stuff going on. But the backdrop is that they

823
00:38:53,142 --> 00:38:57,272
Speaker 1: are climate refugees, but they're like rich white European climate refugees,

824
00:38:57,332 --> 00:38:59,332
Speaker 1: which is like not what we're used to seeing.

825
00:38:59,352 --> 00:39:01,451
Speaker 3: And it's I think it's like.

826
00:39:02,332 --> 00:39:05,091
Speaker 1: Maybe one of the smartest climate things i've seen i'm

827
00:39:05,112 --> 00:39:07,951
Speaker 1: like wow this person like really knew what they were

828
00:39:08,612 --> 00:39:13,051
Speaker 1: talking about in a way that like allowed it to

829
00:39:13,092 --> 00:39:16,142
Speaker 1: be very detailed but not be like the central thing

830
00:39:16,161 --> 00:39:17,992
Speaker 1: that's being talked about you know what i mean it's

831
00:39:18,012 --> 00:39:20,862
Speaker 1: like just it's actually like i keep thinking about it

832
00:39:20,911 --> 00:39:23,721
Speaker 1: in the context of nina's series it's coming out next

833
00:39:23,762 --> 00:39:27,781
Speaker 1: month because it's all about displacement and also yeah like

834
00:39:27,902 --> 00:39:31,492
Speaker 1: it really had me thinking about like who we tend

835
00:39:31,552 --> 00:39:34,902
Speaker 1: to see in those roles on TV and who we don't.

836
00:39:35,542 --> 00:39:40,372
Speaker 1: um yeah like I yeah it's highly recommend it's good yeah.

837
00:39:40,612 --> 00:39:43,131
Speaker 6: You know, yes, it's really important for us to sort

838
00:39:43,152 --> 00:39:46,852
Speaker 6: of be highlighting and telling the stories of people from like,

839
00:39:47,232 --> 00:39:51,232
Speaker 6: you know, from really vulnerable communities who are at the forefront.

840
00:39:50,911 --> 00:39:51,572
Speaker 4: Of climate change.

841
00:39:51,692 --> 00:39:55,072
Speaker 6: But we can't, you know, telling, you know, making it

842
00:39:55,192 --> 00:39:58,451
Speaker 6: out that climate refugees are all brown and black people

843
00:39:58,471 --> 00:40:00,892
Speaker 6: and the same victims that everyone can just turn their,

844
00:40:00,931 --> 00:40:02,312
Speaker 6: close their eyes to because it's not them.

845
00:40:02,352 --> 00:40:05,031
Speaker 1: It's just sad that those people have to deal with that, right?

846
00:40:05,052 --> 00:40:08,012
Speaker 1: Like that's, that is like a thing that people do.

847
00:40:08,152 --> 00:40:09,732
Speaker 1: So yeah. Yeah.

848
00:40:09,832 --> 00:40:11,611
Speaker 3: I thought it was, It was really smart.

849
00:40:11,672 --> 00:40:13,511
Speaker 1: I think these are my favorite kinds of shows is

850
00:40:13,532 --> 00:40:15,452
Speaker 1: when you can tell that like someone in the writing

851
00:40:15,491 --> 00:40:20,142
Speaker 1: room had like a huge level of detailed knowledge about something.

852
00:40:20,161 --> 00:40:22,401
Speaker 1: Like this is why I thought Silicon Valley was good

853
00:40:22,442 --> 00:40:25,701
Speaker 1: is like they clearly had people who like really knew

854
00:40:25,741 --> 00:40:29,082
Speaker 1: that community. And so the jokes were so specific that

855
00:40:29,102 --> 00:40:31,741
Speaker 1: they worked really well. And that's like, I think this

856
00:40:31,782 --> 00:40:32,692
Speaker 1: show is like that too.

857
00:40:32,701 --> 00:40:34,421
Speaker 4: That's the geek in you, Amy. Yeah, it is. Yeah,

858
00:40:34,442 --> 00:40:35,401
Speaker 4: that's the geek in you.

859
00:40:35,442 --> 00:40:35,842
Speaker 5: Yes.

860
00:40:35,882 --> 00:40:36,302
Speaker 7: Yeah.

861
00:40:39,372 --> 00:40:40,451
Speaker 3: Anyway. All right.

862
00:40:40,572 --> 00:40:43,192
Speaker 4: Well, this has been fun.

863
00:40:43,491 --> 00:40:46,422
Speaker 1: I would say send us an email if you have

864
00:40:46,442 --> 00:40:48,922
Speaker 1: a show or a movie that you want to suggest,

865
00:40:49,042 --> 00:40:51,201
Speaker 1: because I feel like we're going to do more of this.

866
00:40:51,282 --> 00:40:51,661
Speaker 1: It's fun.

867
00:40:53,181 --> 00:40:53,682
Speaker 3: Stick around.

868
00:40:53,942 --> 00:40:58,221
Speaker 1: After the break, a conversation with Diana Tarimwa Karakire. about

869
00:40:58,241 --> 00:41:00,562
Speaker 1: the reporting she's been doing for us the past year

870
00:41:01,161 --> 00:41:05,352
Speaker 1: on the ECOP project in Uganda and Tanzania and her

871
00:41:05,392 --> 00:41:10,712
Speaker 1: experience creating a publication focused on Indigenous rights throughout Africa.

872
00:41:11,352 --> 00:41:15,752
Speaker 1: Diana is based in Uganda and there's been quite an

873
00:41:15,911 --> 00:41:19,471
Speaker 1: increase in cracking down on protest against the project there

874
00:41:19,612 --> 00:41:22,672
Speaker 1: and even on journalism covering the project. So we talked

875
00:41:22,712 --> 00:41:25,682
Speaker 1: a little bit about that too. That's all coming up

876
00:41:25,931 --> 00:41:26,741
Speaker 1: after this quick break.

877
00:41:46,962 --> 00:41:52,122
Speaker 5: My name is Dana Tarimwa Karachide. I'm a journalist based

878
00:41:52,181 --> 00:41:56,861
Speaker 5: in Uganda. I do report about oil and gas and

879
00:41:57,112 --> 00:42:05,531
Speaker 5: basically energy and human rights and climate environment, yes, and

880
00:42:05,872 --> 00:42:13,772
Speaker 5: indigenous peoples. So I do freelance work for different publications.

881
00:42:14,872 --> 00:42:18,632
Speaker 5: I'm currently a reporter with Drilled, but I also own

882
00:42:19,161 --> 00:42:24,941
Speaker 5: a Pan-African digital magazine called Indigenous Times, where we do

883
00:42:25,042 --> 00:42:28,712
Speaker 5: amplify issues of Indigenous people in Africa.

884
00:42:31,892 --> 00:42:35,802
Speaker 1: You've reported on some of the things that the government

885
00:42:35,882 --> 00:42:38,602
Speaker 1: has done around repressing.

886
00:42:38,322 --> 00:42:39,982
Speaker 2: Protests against ECOP.

887
00:42:40,262 --> 00:42:43,272
Speaker 1: But, you know, we hear stories about them not being

888
00:42:43,491 --> 00:42:47,892
Speaker 1: so happy about journalism that's critical of that project either.

889
00:42:47,991 --> 00:42:49,732
Speaker 1: So how has that been for you?

890
00:42:50,491 --> 00:42:54,472
Speaker 5: Yes, that's true. There's generally been a lot of threats

891
00:42:54,802 --> 00:43:02,161
Speaker 5: and intimidation generally around environmental defenders, including us journalists that

892
00:43:02,241 --> 00:43:07,462
Speaker 5: do reporting. around environmental issues. In particular, we've also seen

893
00:43:07,902 --> 00:43:13,312
Speaker 5: curbing down on protests around E-Corp. We've also seen threats

894
00:43:13,672 --> 00:43:20,031
Speaker 5: and closure of non-governmental organizations that are working on oil

895
00:43:20,072 --> 00:43:27,992
Speaker 5: and gas issues. And so that has created a lot

896
00:43:28,032 --> 00:43:32,812
Speaker 5: of tension. And as a journalist who who's reporting around

897
00:43:32,832 --> 00:43:39,911
Speaker 5: these issues, it has made me a bit more security conscious,

898
00:43:40,471 --> 00:43:44,911
Speaker 5: but also being able to get sources to speak to

899
00:43:45,092 --> 00:43:48,732
Speaker 5: around these issues has also become a little harder because

900
00:43:49,132 --> 00:43:51,812
Speaker 5: people don't want to speak. People don't want to speak

901
00:43:51,892 --> 00:43:55,432
Speaker 5: out about these issues. So they also don't want to

902
00:43:55,632 --> 00:44:00,332
Speaker 5: expose themselves. So that has been, it's been a bit

903
00:44:00,392 --> 00:44:01,491
Speaker 5: challenging that way.

904
00:44:03,372 --> 00:44:04,472
Speaker 3: Yeah, I bet.

905
00:44:05,152 --> 00:44:08,172
Speaker 1: How did you first start reporting on oil and gas?

906
00:44:08,272 --> 00:44:10,651
Speaker 1: What kind of drew you into looking at that?

907
00:44:12,692 --> 00:44:17,281
Speaker 5: Okay, so I grew up in a household. I grew

908
00:44:17,322 --> 00:44:24,181
Speaker 5: up around activists who were around environmental activists. Oh, that's cool.

909
00:44:33,642 --> 00:44:39,381
Speaker 5: taking action around the environment and taking action on climate.

910
00:44:39,442 --> 00:44:42,381
Speaker 5: So it was constantly in my brain. And so when

911
00:44:42,402 --> 00:44:46,412
Speaker 5: I go to university, I remember I wanted to choose

912
00:44:46,862 --> 00:44:49,392
Speaker 5: as a course, but my uncle was like, I think

913
00:44:49,431 --> 00:44:52,352
Speaker 5: we have too many lawyers. You'd be, I think you're

914
00:44:52,372 --> 00:44:58,451
Speaker 5: a good storyteller. So you're a good storyteller. So I

915
00:44:58,752 --> 00:45:04,531
Speaker 5: just went on ahead and did journalism and communications. And

916
00:45:04,612 --> 00:45:08,792
Speaker 5: so even after journalism and communication, during my internship, he

917
00:45:08,971 --> 00:45:13,872
Speaker 5: offered me an opportunity to work with him in his organization.

918
00:45:14,652 --> 00:45:19,132
Speaker 5: So from that time, I got into, because his organization

919
00:45:19,172 --> 00:45:25,502
Speaker 5: was focused on environment, specifically around renewable energy and oil

920
00:45:25,522 --> 00:45:29,902
Speaker 5: and gas. So, but it was more, I was doing

921
00:45:29,982 --> 00:45:33,862
Speaker 5: more communications work for him. So during that time, I

922
00:45:34,342 --> 00:45:37,782
Speaker 5: kept thinking, I think I can better tell these stories

923
00:45:38,582 --> 00:45:41,232
Speaker 5: if I go to the communities. And I think the

924
00:45:41,292 --> 00:45:48,452
Speaker 5: other thing that sort of was a bit unsettling was

925
00:45:49,112 --> 00:45:55,261
Speaker 5: us going to the communities and preaching about human rights

926
00:45:56,022 --> 00:46:00,872
Speaker 5: to people who were hungry, people who were who, I mean,

927
00:46:01,411 --> 00:46:05,232
Speaker 5: they want school fees for their children. So it was

928
00:46:05,272 --> 00:46:09,692
Speaker 5: a bit unsettling for me. And I was like, how

929
00:46:09,951 --> 00:46:14,241
Speaker 5: else can I do this work without just preaching about

930
00:46:14,362 --> 00:46:18,122
Speaker 5: human rights and empowering, which wasn't bad work, but sometimes

931
00:46:18,161 --> 00:46:21,962
Speaker 5: people are just, I mean, hungry. And then I'd also

932
00:46:22,002 --> 00:46:26,302
Speaker 5: be aware of the different issues that are affecting these communities.

933
00:46:26,842 --> 00:46:32,862
Speaker 5: And so... Then I ran back into storytelling from the organization.

934
00:46:33,362 --> 00:46:36,962
Speaker 5: I went back into journalism, into storytelling because I felt

935
00:46:37,602 --> 00:46:44,832
Speaker 5: I would do better telling people's stories than just preaching

936
00:46:44,931 --> 00:46:45,972
Speaker 5: about human rights.

937
00:46:47,002 --> 00:46:47,902
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.

938
00:46:48,122 --> 00:46:48,911
Speaker 5: That's so interesting.

939
00:46:49,342 --> 00:46:51,692
Speaker 1: Okay, I feel like that ties in really well with

940
00:46:51,752 --> 00:46:54,052
Speaker 1: the work that you've been doing for Drilled, which is

941
00:46:54,592 --> 00:46:59,312
Speaker 1: really digging into how ECOP, which is this big pipeline

942
00:46:59,352 --> 00:47:03,622
Speaker 1: that Total Energies is building with the governments of Uganda

943
00:47:03,681 --> 00:47:07,981
Speaker 1: and Tanzania, across Uganda and parts of Tanzania as well.

944
00:47:08,602 --> 00:47:09,252
Speaker 3: It's been....

945
00:47:10,411 --> 00:47:14,072
Speaker 1: Protested kind of all along the way at various points,

946
00:47:14,172 --> 00:47:18,392
Speaker 1: but you've done all these really interesting stories about the

947
00:47:18,951 --> 00:47:22,002
Speaker 1: on the ground impact on specific communities that are sort

948
00:47:22,042 --> 00:47:25,502
Speaker 1: of like along the route of the pipeline. So tell

949
00:47:25,542 --> 00:47:27,582
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what you found. We'll put

950
00:47:27,622 --> 00:47:29,921
Speaker 1: links to the stories in the show notes too, but

951
00:47:29,962 --> 00:47:32,821
Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about how this project is

952
00:47:32,971 --> 00:47:35,652
Speaker 1: impacting the communities and its path.

953
00:47:36,931 --> 00:47:40,841
Speaker 5: Yes. So most of my stories have been around Total

954
00:47:40,971 --> 00:47:47,241
Speaker 5: Energy's Tilinga project and the East African crude oil pipeline project.

955
00:47:48,201 --> 00:47:53,241
Speaker 5: And the Tilinga project is a bit unique because it's

956
00:47:53,502 --> 00:47:59,042
Speaker 5: in the middle of Mackenzie Falls National Park, one of

957
00:47:59,161 --> 00:48:04,672
Speaker 5: Uganda's largest parks. And so my reporting goes beyond the

958
00:48:04,712 --> 00:48:09,281
Speaker 5: development story that government and oil companies are telling us.

959
00:48:10,262 --> 00:48:14,332
Speaker 5: So beyond that, what have been the impacts on the

960
00:48:14,392 --> 00:48:19,252
Speaker 5: communities where these projects are, but also the environment in

961
00:48:19,312 --> 00:48:23,612
Speaker 5: this community? So some of my findings have been that

962
00:48:23,782 --> 00:48:28,742
Speaker 5: actually communities think these projects are more of a land

963
00:48:28,782 --> 00:48:33,552
Speaker 5: grab because they feel they were not, first of all,

964
00:48:34,572 --> 00:48:39,372
Speaker 5: The projects themselves have violated the principles of free, prior,

965
00:48:39,451 --> 00:48:47,422
Speaker 5: and informed consent. And communities complain that they didn't understand

966
00:48:47,502 --> 00:48:52,082
Speaker 5: the magnitude of these projects. And for those whose land

967
00:48:52,622 --> 00:48:56,982
Speaker 5: was taken, because, I mean, the projects require land to

968
00:48:57,022 --> 00:49:02,681
Speaker 5: be built. to be built, for the ECOP to be built,

969
00:49:02,782 --> 00:49:05,571
Speaker 5: and for the Tilinga. It also requires land for the

970
00:49:05,612 --> 00:49:10,652
Speaker 5: different feeder pipelines that are connecting to the refinery. So

971
00:49:11,652 --> 00:49:14,892
Speaker 5: the communities feel, first of all, they didn't understand the

972
00:49:14,931 --> 00:49:19,082
Speaker 5: magnitude of these projects, but they also feel they have

973
00:49:19,122 --> 00:49:23,761
Speaker 5: not been adequately compensated for their land. And the other

974
00:49:23,802 --> 00:49:27,432
Speaker 5: challenge is most of this land is communally owned land.

975
00:49:28,782 --> 00:49:32,781
Speaker 5: And so they're learning. are tied to the land in

976
00:49:32,842 --> 00:49:37,702
Speaker 5: terms of these are their grazing lands. These are lands

977
00:49:37,762 --> 00:49:42,112
Speaker 5: where they've buried their people for generations. There's a lot

978
00:49:42,172 --> 00:49:48,112
Speaker 5: of cultural sacred sites on these lands. And so So

979
00:49:48,572 --> 00:49:52,812
Speaker 5: that displacement meant that they were supposed to move away

980
00:49:53,252 --> 00:49:56,632
Speaker 5: from a life they have known all this time. So

981
00:49:57,411 --> 00:50:00,152
Speaker 5: they feel they were not adequately compensated. They feel they

982
00:50:00,172 --> 00:50:04,732
Speaker 5: were not adequately consulted in the whole process in the

983
00:50:04,772 --> 00:50:08,092
Speaker 5: development of these projects. Yeah. Yeah.

984
00:50:08,672 --> 00:50:12,451
Speaker 1: And how does that contrast with how Total and the

985
00:50:12,532 --> 00:50:14,702
Speaker 1: government talk about this project?

986
00:50:14,802 --> 00:50:20,062
Speaker 3: What are the things that they say... are sort of like.

987
00:50:19,942 --> 00:50:23,602
Speaker 1: Big benefits of this project that it doesn't seem like

988
00:50:23,642 --> 00:50:25,102
Speaker 1: are getting to the communities.

989
00:50:27,962 --> 00:50:32,832
Speaker 5: Okay, so Tao is constantly preaching about the jobs that

990
00:50:32,852 --> 00:50:36,491
Speaker 5: the industry is going to create. But I think even

991
00:50:36,572 --> 00:50:42,212
Speaker 5: that narrative is tired now because communities actually, members realize

992
00:50:42,292 --> 00:50:47,332
Speaker 5: that there were just a few projects that were created.

993
00:50:47,872 --> 00:50:51,211
Speaker 5: for a few people. And some of the people didn't

994
00:50:51,272 --> 00:50:56,461
Speaker 5: even come from within the local communities in these areas.

995
00:50:57,502 --> 00:51:01,602
Speaker 5: And so that also has sort of angered the people

996
00:51:01,642 --> 00:51:04,602
Speaker 5: around these projects. But then also, even the people that

997
00:51:04,661 --> 00:51:09,451
Speaker 5: were employed in the beginning of these projects have been

998
00:51:09,552 --> 00:51:14,132
Speaker 5: laid off with time. Because as the projects have proceeded,

999
00:51:14,152 --> 00:51:20,772
Speaker 5: there have also been massive layoffs. And so it just

1000
00:51:20,832 --> 00:51:24,352
Speaker 5: goes back to what activists have always been saying, that

1001
00:51:26,012 --> 00:51:29,571
Speaker 5: the industry doesn't create as many jobs as the companies

1002
00:51:29,951 --> 00:51:33,872
Speaker 5: have been saying, even as government has been preaching that

1003
00:51:34,212 --> 00:51:40,071
Speaker 5: the jobs are really not as many as they've been projecting. Yeah.

1004
00:51:41,672 --> 00:51:44,172
Speaker 1: You've been reporting on this for a while, so I'm

1005
00:51:44,232 --> 00:51:46,892
Speaker 1: curious to hear your take on like the story that

1006
00:51:46,971 --> 00:51:51,002
Speaker 1: always gets told about these projects is that they will

1007
00:51:51,422 --> 00:51:54,462
Speaker 1: bring money to the economy and development to the country.

1008
00:51:54,482 --> 00:51:57,962
Speaker 1: We talked about the jobs thing. That's another one. What

1009
00:51:58,002 --> 00:52:01,261
Speaker 1: have you seen as like the oh, and that it

1010
00:52:01,322 --> 00:52:06,022
Speaker 1: will provide affordable energy for the country? So what have

1011
00:52:06,062 --> 00:52:10,122
Speaker 1: you seen as like the reality of those promises? Yeah.

1012
00:52:11,812 --> 00:52:18,362
Speaker 5: Okay, so my observation has been, and I mean, I

1013
00:52:19,802 --> 00:52:24,842
Speaker 5: come from my opinions, I informed by the several reports

1014
00:52:24,982 --> 00:52:28,801
Speaker 5: I have been reading, but also the workshops I have attended.

1015
00:52:29,422 --> 00:52:33,551
Speaker 5: And from that, I mean, if there are several reports

1016
00:52:33,692 --> 00:52:38,131
Speaker 5: that say that actually oil and gas, countries that have

1017
00:52:38,431 --> 00:52:41,911
Speaker 5: produced oil and gas in Africa, have not really benefited

1018
00:52:41,991 --> 00:52:47,312
Speaker 5: from this resource. And I say that on ground because,

1019
00:52:47,572 --> 00:52:52,332
Speaker 5: I mean, I have friends that had been employed in

1020
00:52:52,392 --> 00:52:57,902
Speaker 5: this sector and now they are being laid off after

1021
00:52:58,082 --> 00:53:02,781
Speaker 5: all these years. So that in itself points you to

1022
00:53:02,842 --> 00:53:07,422
Speaker 5: the fact that companies are really, they're not interested in

1023
00:53:07,962 --> 00:53:14,022
Speaker 5: leaving any profits behind. for the country. And they're just

1024
00:53:14,082 --> 00:53:18,642
Speaker 5: interested in producing the oil and taking it. Because I

1025
00:53:18,681 --> 00:53:26,332
Speaker 5: remember even our president in the beginning was leaning towards

1026
00:53:26,411 --> 00:53:30,991
Speaker 5: having a refinery in the country. So we produce our oil,

1027
00:53:31,052 --> 00:53:34,681
Speaker 5: refine it here. People get to benefit from it. But

1028
00:53:34,721 --> 00:53:40,022
Speaker 5: the companies actually went ahead and convinced him that it

1029
00:53:40,082 --> 00:53:43,801
Speaker 5: was better to build this gigantic pipeline and take the

1030
00:53:43,842 --> 00:53:48,532
Speaker 5: resource out of the country. So from that, I don't

1031
00:53:48,652 --> 00:53:53,011
Speaker 5: see the benefits trickling down to the common people. But

1032
00:53:53,032 --> 00:53:56,092
Speaker 5: then also, the government has also been involved in several

1033
00:53:56,172 --> 00:54:01,842
Speaker 5: corruption scandals. And I think that's what activists have been saying.

1034
00:54:02,272 --> 00:54:06,052
Speaker 5: If we fail to manage the budget and the little

1035
00:54:06,092 --> 00:54:10,372
Speaker 5: resources we've had as a country, how do we think

1036
00:54:10,431 --> 00:54:13,591
Speaker 5: that government is going to manage all the profits from

1037
00:54:13,661 --> 00:54:19,682
Speaker 5: this resource, the management of funds from this resource? And

1038
00:54:19,922 --> 00:54:24,702
Speaker 5: the opaqueness that also surrounds the proceeds from the sector,

1039
00:54:24,721 --> 00:54:29,752
Speaker 5: but also around the arguments that were signed between government

1040
00:54:30,252 --> 00:54:33,761
Speaker 5: and the companies. Up to now, these have not been

1041
00:54:33,822 --> 00:54:37,722
Speaker 5: disclosed to us. We actually do not know. And civil

1042
00:54:37,782 --> 00:54:41,071
Speaker 5: society has been pushing for the longest time for these

1043
00:54:41,172 --> 00:54:46,011
Speaker 5: to be made public so we know. We also had

1044
00:54:46,092 --> 00:54:50,551
Speaker 5: a scenario where our former minister of finance said that, oh,

1045
00:54:50,652 --> 00:54:55,471
Speaker 5: I actually signed the production sharing agreements without reading through.

1046
00:54:56,232 --> 00:54:59,212
Speaker 5: So what did you sign if you didn't treat? That

1047
00:54:59,272 --> 00:55:04,332
Speaker 5: is on record. It's in the papers. But even our

1048
00:55:04,411 --> 00:55:08,732
Speaker 5: president has come out to explicitly say that oil belongs

1049
00:55:08,832 --> 00:55:13,721
Speaker 5: to me. Oil is my resource. Latin itself is a

1050
00:55:13,822 --> 00:55:18,242
Speaker 5: pointer to are the citizens really going to benefit from

1051
00:55:18,302 --> 00:55:21,262
Speaker 5: this resource? Yeah.

1052
00:55:21,342 --> 00:55:25,092
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. One of the things that you reported on

1053
00:55:25,132 --> 00:55:29,192
Speaker 1: that I thought was so interesting was around this idea

1054
00:55:29,252 --> 00:55:34,191
Speaker 1: that Total has been pushing about net biodiversity gain, that

1055
00:55:34,712 --> 00:55:38,681
Speaker 1: because they are going to plant some trees over here,

1056
00:55:38,762 --> 00:55:42,602
Speaker 1: that this impact in Murchison Falls Park is no big deal,

1057
00:55:42,642 --> 00:55:44,642
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. So yeah, I'd love to have

1058
00:55:44,681 --> 00:55:47,522
Speaker 1: you talk about that a little bit, how they frame that.

1059
00:55:49,342 --> 00:55:53,511
Speaker 5: Yes, so... So Total Energies has this program that it

1060
00:55:53,592 --> 00:56:00,642
Speaker 5: calls the Three-Pillar Biodiversity Framework. So Total Energies is operating

1061
00:56:00,681 --> 00:56:04,741
Speaker 5: the Tilinga project inside Maxon Falls National Park. And so

1062
00:56:04,922 --> 00:56:08,942
Speaker 5: under its Three-Pillar Framework, it says that it's going to

1063
00:56:09,982 --> 00:56:17,402
Speaker 5: implement the Non-Ed Biodiversity Loss Framework. So under that, this

1064
00:56:17,462 --> 00:56:19,841
Speaker 5: is what it's doing. So there are going to be

1065
00:56:21,392 --> 00:56:26,772
Speaker 5: translocating some of the wild animals in the park to

1066
00:56:27,552 --> 00:56:30,712
Speaker 5: some other different national parks around the country. And then

1067
00:56:30,752 --> 00:56:34,922
Speaker 5: they're going to be planting trees, but also just around

1068
00:56:35,122 --> 00:56:39,442
Speaker 5: in the same area in the communities, planting trees. But

1069
00:56:39,462 --> 00:56:43,522
Speaker 5: then even those projects have also met sort of local resistance,

1070
00:56:43,602 --> 00:56:48,732
Speaker 5: the tree planting campaign, where communities were saying that the trees.

1071
00:56:50,471 --> 00:56:55,582
Speaker 5: They're introducing a different species, tree species to these areas.

1072
00:56:56,161 --> 00:56:58,321
Speaker 5: Different species to these areas.

1073
00:56:58,342 --> 00:57:02,482
Speaker 1: So they're not planting native trees, they're planting like imported trees.

1074
00:57:02,502 --> 00:57:03,441
Speaker 5: Yes. Wow.

1075
00:57:03,942 --> 00:57:04,642
Speaker 3: Amazing.

1076
00:57:05,362 --> 00:57:09,452
Speaker 5: And so, so, so yeah, so that's what it's been doing.

1077
00:57:09,512 --> 00:57:13,812
Speaker 5: But then also the translocation has also not worked really

1078
00:57:13,911 --> 00:57:20,212
Speaker 5: well because it has also increased the human wildlife conflicts

1079
00:57:20,292 --> 00:57:25,572
Speaker 5: in this area. So because animals are moving away from

1080
00:57:25,772 --> 00:57:28,222
Speaker 5: the noise and the sound and the chaos of the

1081
00:57:28,282 --> 00:57:31,962
Speaker 5: whole project, they're moving further into the community. So they've

1082
00:57:31,982 --> 00:57:36,882
Speaker 5: also increased cases of human wildlife conflicts, but then also

1083
00:57:37,182 --> 00:57:41,822
Speaker 5: the whole exercise of translocation, moving animals from this area

1084
00:57:41,892 --> 00:57:46,472
Speaker 5: to another area, and then you also increased cases of

1085
00:57:46,532 --> 00:57:51,352
Speaker 5: human-wild life conflicts in those other areas where animals are

1086
00:57:51,372 --> 00:57:56,022
Speaker 5: being moved. So it's not really working well, like they claim.

1087
00:57:57,662 --> 00:57:59,982
Speaker 5: But then the other thing that I've also noticed is

1088
00:58:00,042 --> 00:58:04,042
Speaker 5: that the company has been, okay, so they say that

1089
00:58:04,122 --> 00:58:09,972
Speaker 5: they are working with conservation organizations, but to fund a

1090
00:58:10,202 --> 00:58:16,002
Speaker 5: conservation organization, and these are like wildlife conservation organizations, funding

1091
00:58:16,082 --> 00:58:20,882
Speaker 5: them to work with them, conduct this. So it's been

1092
00:58:21,062 --> 00:58:26,742
Speaker 5: also activists have called it the company just trying to

1093
00:58:27,742 --> 00:58:34,612
Speaker 5: buy these conservation organizations because some of them have been

1094
00:58:34,752 --> 00:58:41,652
Speaker 5: critical of their biodiversity framework. So what they do is

1095
00:58:41,712 --> 00:58:46,372
Speaker 5: bring them on board and fund them And so every

1096
00:58:46,432 --> 00:58:49,602
Speaker 5: time I've even approached these organizers and like, oh, we

1097
00:58:49,642 --> 00:58:52,602
Speaker 5: can't talk about what we are doing with Total. Why

1098
00:58:52,642 --> 00:58:55,182
Speaker 5: can't you talk about what you're doing with the company?

1099
00:58:55,202 --> 00:58:59,902
Speaker 5: I mean, these are community projects. Yeah.

1100
00:59:00,102 --> 00:59:00,362
Speaker 7: Yeah.

1101
00:59:01,012 --> 00:59:04,392
Speaker 1: That's super interesting because it's so, we did a big

1102
00:59:04,592 --> 00:59:08,572
Speaker 1: project reporting in Guyana a couple of years ago in

1103
00:59:08,652 --> 00:59:12,312
Speaker 1: South America. And that was an Exxon project, but a

1104
00:59:12,312 --> 00:59:15,992
Speaker 1: very similar approach where like, you know, some of the

1105
00:59:15,992 --> 00:59:19,492
Speaker 1: first things they did in the country was first they

1106
00:59:19,492 --> 00:59:23,881
Speaker 1: they hired a lot of the journalists to do pr

1107
00:59:24,302 --> 00:59:29,461
Speaker 1: for the project and then they funded yeah like any

1108
00:59:29,562 --> 00:59:33,342
Speaker 1: conservation organization that would normally have been critical of that

1109
00:59:33,382 --> 00:59:36,182
Speaker 1: project they like gave a bunch of funding to and

1110
00:59:36,202 --> 00:59:39,852
Speaker 1: then part of their funding agreements was that the conservation

1111
00:59:39,892 --> 00:59:42,672
Speaker 1: organizations had to do like videos.

1112
00:59:42,152 --> 00:59:45,952
Speaker 2: With them to be like, this is so great.

1113
00:59:46,092 --> 00:59:48,892
Speaker 5: Even here, they've been taking lots of photos.

1114
00:59:49,572 --> 00:59:49,832
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1115
00:59:50,472 --> 00:59:51,762
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah.

1116
00:59:52,042 --> 00:59:52,762
Speaker 3: That makes sense.

1117
00:59:53,702 --> 00:59:54,182
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1118
00:59:54,602 --> 00:59:55,662
Speaker 3: It's a playbook.

1119
00:59:56,442 --> 00:59:56,742
Speaker 5: Cheers.

1120
00:59:58,362 --> 01:00:01,702
Speaker 1: Okay, I would love to have you talk about your magazine,

1121
01:00:01,842 --> 01:00:05,602
Speaker 1: Indigenous Times. What prompted you to start it and what

1122
01:00:05,642 --> 01:00:07,242
Speaker 1: kinds of things do you guys cover?

1123
01:00:07,342 --> 01:00:08,582
Speaker 3: And we'll put a link to.

1124
01:00:08,492 --> 01:00:11,392
Speaker 1: That in the show notes too so people can find it.

1125
01:00:13,812 --> 01:00:19,232
Speaker 5: Okay, so Indigenous Times is a Pan-African magazine where we

1126
01:00:19,272 --> 01:00:27,262
Speaker 5: report and amplify issues of Indigenous people in Africa. So

1127
01:00:28,792 --> 01:00:33,512
Speaker 5: I did some stories around indigenous people in Uganda and

1128
01:00:35,332 --> 01:00:42,542
Speaker 5: those stories overwhelmed me. The level of marginalization of these communities,

1129
01:00:42,702 --> 01:00:49,122
Speaker 5: but also realizing that their issues were being underreported, they

1130
01:00:49,142 --> 01:00:53,512
Speaker 5: were not even receiving the media attention that they deserve.

1131
01:00:54,252 --> 01:01:00,242
Speaker 5: And also realizing that marginalization seeping through into policies and

1132
01:01:00,322 --> 01:01:05,982
Speaker 5: legal frameworks and realizing that some of these communities are

1133
01:01:06,042 --> 01:01:10,322
Speaker 5: actually also not recognized by the state. Some of them

1134
01:01:10,382 --> 01:01:16,092
Speaker 5: remain stateless. And then I also read widely and realized

1135
01:01:16,142 --> 01:01:21,012
Speaker 5: that actually this happens with indigenous people across Africa. And

1136
01:01:21,052 --> 01:01:25,222
Speaker 5: the fact that I also have roots in, in indigenous

1137
01:01:25,262 --> 01:01:30,462
Speaker 5: people from Western Uganda, I realized, okay, this is a

1138
01:01:30,502 --> 01:01:36,042
Speaker 5: very big gap. And, and that's really what prompted me

1139
01:01:36,102 --> 01:01:42,492
Speaker 5: to start this, this media company. And I have for

1140
01:01:42,512 --> 01:01:47,712
Speaker 5: the past few years. So I registered this last year and,

1141
01:01:47,992 --> 01:01:51,432
Speaker 5: but we've been operating for like four years now. Um,

1142
01:01:53,242 --> 01:01:56,642
Speaker 5: But of course, because also registration here takes some time

1143
01:01:57,022 --> 01:02:01,822
Speaker 5: and government has been very careful. Government, in this case,

1144
01:02:01,862 --> 01:02:08,922
Speaker 5: the Uganda Registration Bureau, the one that registers organizations. Somehow,

1145
01:02:09,162 --> 01:02:13,272
Speaker 5: if your organization is going to do work around human rights,

1146
01:02:13,532 --> 01:02:17,552
Speaker 5: so it really takes long or sometimes you're not able

1147
01:02:17,612 --> 01:02:21,232
Speaker 5: to even register it. for as long as you mention

1148
01:02:21,312 --> 01:02:24,752
Speaker 5: something to do with human rights. And so we were

1149
01:02:24,812 --> 01:02:28,881
Speaker 5: only able to get it registered last year, but over

1150
01:02:28,922 --> 01:02:32,562
Speaker 5: the course of the years, I've been trying to bring

1151
01:02:32,702 --> 01:02:35,642
Speaker 5: on board other journalists that I can work with to

1152
01:02:35,682 --> 01:02:42,322
Speaker 5: be able to amplify issues around Indigenous people and their environment,

1153
01:02:42,762 --> 01:02:51,562
Speaker 5: and also not just... Stories that just talk about the marginalization,

1154
01:02:51,622 --> 01:02:56,802
Speaker 5: but also stories that talk about the solutions and how

1155
01:02:57,482 --> 01:03:06,052
Speaker 5: their cultures mesh into environmental protection and conservation. So, yeah,

1156
01:03:06,252 --> 01:03:07,792
Speaker 5: that's about it.

1157
01:03:09,002 --> 01:03:09,562
Speaker 3: I'm excited.

1158
01:03:09,902 --> 01:03:13,042
Speaker 1: I like I have read a few stories in there already,

1159
01:03:13,062 --> 01:03:14,722
Speaker 1: but I'm excited to read more.

1160
01:03:14,782 --> 01:03:17,302
Speaker 3: It's great that you're doing that. OK, awesome.

1161
01:03:17,342 --> 01:03:19,732
Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for taking the time and

1162
01:03:19,772 --> 01:03:22,992
Speaker 1: doing all this great work. And we'll stick links to

1163
01:03:23,072 --> 01:03:25,292
Speaker 1: all of it in the show notes. And yeah, I

1164
01:03:25,372 --> 01:03:32,252
Speaker 1: hope you have a good rest of your day. The

1165
01:03:32,272 --> 01:03:35,692
Speaker 1: Spill is a regularly recurring segment of the Drilled podcast.

1166
01:03:35,772 --> 01:03:37,852
Speaker 1: It comes out every Friday when we're not in the

1167
01:03:37,892 --> 01:03:41,632
Speaker 1: middle of a narrative season. If you have ideas for

1168
01:03:41,732 --> 01:03:44,472
Speaker 1: folks you'd like to see us interview on here, let

1169
01:03:44,512 --> 01:03:47,992
Speaker 1: us know. We're at Drilled Media on all social media platforms,

1170
01:03:48,392 --> 01:03:52,432
Speaker 1: or you can email me at amy at drilled.media. Links

1171
01:03:52,472 --> 01:03:55,211
Speaker 1: to all the stories we mentioned and to pre-order my

1172
01:03:55,272 --> 01:03:59,052
Speaker 1: book are in the show notes. The Spill is produced

1173
01:03:59,202 --> 01:04:02,512
Speaker 1: by Peter Duff. Our theme song is Bird in the

1174
01:04:02,552 --> 01:04:07,302
Speaker 1: Hand by Fournone. Artwork by Matthew Fleming. Our First Amendment

1175
01:04:07,342 --> 01:04:11,362
Speaker 1: attorney is James Wheaton. of the First Amendment Project. You

1176
01:04:11,412 --> 01:04:16,372
Speaker 1: can find transcripts of the spill online at drilled.media. Like

1177
01:04:16,432 --> 01:04:20,912
Speaker 1: the rest of Drilled, the spill is distributed by Pushkin Industries.

1178
01:04:21,512 --> 01:04:25,962
Speaker 1: The team there is Eric Sandler, Grace Ross, Morgan Ratner,

1179
01:04:26,162 --> 01:04:31,762
Speaker 1: Owen Miller, Kira Posey, Jordan McMillan, Brian Shreberneck, and Jake Flanagan.

1180
01:04:35,842 --> 01:04:35,962
Speaker 5: Bye.