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Speaker 1: Imagine a former president of a country found guilty of

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Speaker 1: corruption and money laundering, who remains one of the most

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Speaker 1: popular presidents in its history and as a strong contender

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Speaker 1: in the next presidential race, and the country's current president

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Speaker 1: has also been charged with corruption. It sounds like fiction,

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Speaker 1: but it's fact. The country is Brazil and its former president,

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Speaker 1: Luis and Nascio Lula da Silva, was found guilty in

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Speaker 1: the corruption probe known as car Wash and sentenced to

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Speaker 1: nine and a half years in prison. During a speech

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Speaker 1: in Salpolo yesterday, Lula blamed the media and prosecutors for

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Speaker 1: plotting against him and vowed to appeal. Joining us from

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Speaker 1: the Bloomberg News Brazilia office is Raymond call it the

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Speaker 1: bureau chief. Ray tell us about the charges Lula was

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Speaker 1: convicted of. Yes, him, Essentially, he's being accused of having

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Speaker 1: taken bribes from construction companies, not in the form of cash,

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Speaker 1: but in the form of benefits. We're talking about real

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Speaker 1: estate to each side house and improvements up grades to

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Speaker 1: to that house. As he said, I mean, it's just huge.

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Speaker 1: It's a huge story that it's turned the country upside down.

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Speaker 1: This was a man who Barack Obama called the most

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Speaker 1: popular politician on earth, and here he is facing perhaps

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Speaker 1: as much as a decade in prison. He will, of

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Speaker 1: course still still appeal. Well, when he does appeal, he's

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Speaker 1: going to claim that his defense wasn't appropriately considered. Vote.

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Speaker 1: What's his defense to this, Well, it's basically on technical

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Speaker 1: grounds and some of the evidence that they've provided hasn't

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Speaker 1: been properly considered. Um, this is but but he's also

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Speaker 1: at the same time, he's it's a two pronged approach.

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Speaker 1: At the same time, he's claiming that this is some

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Speaker 1: sort of political persecution, that the reason that he's being

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Speaker 1: charged and sentenced is because he's, you know, still leading

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Speaker 1: in the polls. He could come back. He often used

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Speaker 1: uses this this idea that you know, he was the

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Speaker 1: first working class president and Brazil's establishment, the elite doesn't want, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, another another labor leader in office. Again. Um,

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Speaker 1: that has been his line, judging by sort of the

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Speaker 1: turnout in the streets the last couple of days, and

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Speaker 1: not too many people are buying that line. H. We

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Speaker 1: stuff to see their demonstrations planned for for the twenty

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Speaker 1: of this month, But so far, um, you know, the

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Speaker 1: hardcore little supporters aren't aren't to be seen. Ray. He

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Speaker 1: can't run if he's if his conviction is upheld, But

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Speaker 1: can he run while he's awaiting appeal. That's an excellent question,

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Speaker 1: and there's some some technicalities there that that we need.

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Speaker 1: According to the law, he needs to be convicted in

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Speaker 1: a second by the appeals court. In other words, it

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Speaker 1: needs that this ruling needs to be upheld. Now he

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Speaker 1: could until then he runs. What what happens if if

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Speaker 1: he if he is barred during the process. There's all

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Speaker 1: sorts of potential legal loopholes here in gray areas that

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Speaker 1: aren't entirely clear. Um. The only thing we know so

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Speaker 1: far is that if the ruling is upheld, he definitely

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Speaker 1: can't run well. And the current Prime Minister is also

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Speaker 1: facing the prospect of corruption charges, isn't that right? The

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Speaker 1: current president, yes, Michelle Tamer is also is also facing

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Speaker 1: the charges that there's Now the difference here is um

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Speaker 1: that that his child depends on approval by by Congress.

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Speaker 1: So it's not actually judges who decide the fate of

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Speaker 1: Michelle Tamer the current president, but politicians where he still

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Speaker 1: has a majority. So that's one if you would like

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Speaker 1: to say one of the flaws of the system. Um

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Speaker 1: that if you have enough political support, you may not

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Speaker 1: have to face justice. Ray, As you mentioned, Lula is

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Speaker 1: an iconic political figure in Brazil and he had a

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Speaker 1: lot of support. Why and it seemed to be support

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Speaker 1: even during the case. Why do you think that the

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Speaker 1: verdict by a judge, not by a jury changed so

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Speaker 1: many of his supporters of means that they're not out

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Speaker 1: there supporting him. Now, Well, look, I mean there a

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Speaker 1: couple of theories about this, and and one goes as

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Speaker 1: such that while things are doing well, um, politicians are

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Speaker 1: can get away with more. In other words, during the

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Speaker 1: past decades of this huge commodity boom, Lula was you know,

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Speaker 1: was credited with putting Brazil on the world map. Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, it hosted the World the World Cup, the Olympics.

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Speaker 1: Things were going well. And of course when things are

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Speaker 1: going well, you don't, you know, take a second look

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Speaker 1: at where all the money is coming from. And now

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Speaker 1: that Brazil is in its deepest recession on record, of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, leaders have lost popularity and there are prosecutors

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Speaker 1: out there willing to take a second look, um, and

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Speaker 1: well this is what they found. At least that's that's

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Speaker 1: one of the theories. That's that's going around right in

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Speaker 1: about thirty seconds. You know, this is a huge corruption

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Speaker 1: investigation and and it's encompassing a lot of people. Can

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Speaker 1: Brazil dig out of this and get to a point

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Speaker 1: where it's politics aren't so corrupt? Look that that's another

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Speaker 1: We debate this every day here. We hear people debated

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Speaker 1: and the elevators in the hallways. Uh, they're mixed feelings.

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Speaker 1: Some people are dismayed, say, oh god, you know, there's

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Speaker 1: just corruption everywhere. Everybody's corrupting. Other people are saying, you

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Speaker 1: know what, we're finally making progress because corruption was always around.

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Speaker 1: Now people are starting to judges are starting to clean

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Speaker 1: things up, and there's light at the end of the tunnel.

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Speaker 1: Thanks so much for being with us. That's Raymond College.

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Speaker 1: He is the bureau chief of the Bloomberg News Brazilia office,

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Speaker 1: and he's reporting on the conviction of this former president

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Speaker 1: Luis in Nascio Lula da Silva