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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My name

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Speaker 2: is Robert.

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Speaker 3: Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, and we're back with

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Speaker 3: the fifth and for now the final part in our

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Speaker 3: series on pretend play. Now, sometimes when we do a

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Speaker 3: longer series like this, we say, you know, devour in

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Speaker 3: whatever order you like, But this really is one series

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Speaker 3: where we do recommend listening in order, because today we're

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Speaker 3: going to build on and refer back to stuff we

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Speaker 3: talked about in some earlier episodes from this series, but

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Speaker 3: to refresh briefly, in those earlier parts, we talked about

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Speaker 3: definitions and subdivisions of pretend play, play that involves non

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Speaker 3: literal action and understanding. We talked about which aspects of

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Speaker 3: pretend play appear to be universal and which appear to

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Speaker 3: be culturally variable. For example, the evidence is pretty strong

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Speaker 3: that all children around the world engage in pretending, even

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Speaker 3: in environments where it is actively discouraged, and it emerges

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Speaker 3: on a pretty consistent developmental schedule, though there is wide

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Speaker 3: variation across cultures and within cultures, across like home conditions

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Speaker 3: and different types of parental influence in how much time

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Speaker 3: children spend on pretend play and in what its themes

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Speaker 3: and contents are. Some cultures have more fantasy themes like

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Speaker 3: talking animals, others are more realism bound in their pretend games,

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Speaker 3: and so forth. We also talked about the specific issue

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Speaker 3: of imaginary companions, where those come from, how they usually work,

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Speaker 3: what patterns manifest within and across cultures. We talked about

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Speaker 3: possible links between pretend to play and complex cognitive skills

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Speaker 3: like symbolic understanding, counterfactual reasoning, and theory of mind, whether

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Speaker 3: pretend to play may help children develop these capabilities, or

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Speaker 3: whether it makes use of common neural structures with them.

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Speaker 3: We talked about the idea of the paracosm, which is

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Speaker 3: an extension of the idea of an imaginary friend or

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Speaker 3: imaginary companion into a whole imaginary world, maybe even with

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Speaker 3: its own geography, inhabitants, its own history and rules and customs.

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Speaker 3: And we looked at how paracosms develop and whether they're

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Speaker 3: associated with other things later in life, like an adult

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Speaker 3: capacity for creativity. And then finally, we also talked about

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Speaker 3: ways in which imaginative play could be said to carry

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Speaker 3: on into adult life. Often in different guises.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and we're going to continue on in this

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Speaker 2: episode to roll out discussion on some of these themes.

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Speaker 2: But I guess we should stress that there is so

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Speaker 2: much out there, and there's so much ongoing research into

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Speaker 2: not only pretend play, but also childhood imagination, adult imagination,

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Speaker 2: and so forth. This is really one of those series

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Speaker 2: where we could just keep going and going and find

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Speaker 2: new angles, new studies to discuss each time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. I mean, We've just come across so

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Speaker 3: many interesting things. I keep finding new, fascinating stuff I

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Speaker 3: wasn't even aware of when I first decided I wanted

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Speaker 3: to do this topic on the show. So it just

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Speaker 3: keeps unfolding, and there's more and more, and the more

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Speaker 3: and more is so good. But we are going to

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Speaker 3: have to cut it off after today. Maybe we'll return

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Speaker 3: to this topic in some form in the future. But

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Speaker 3: one thing I wanted to come back to in today's episode,

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Speaker 3: now that we've looked at a lot of the different

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Speaker 3: cultural environments and varieties of play expression, is the question

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Speaker 3: of the biological basis for pretend play? Is pretend play

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Speaker 3: a culturally contingent activity?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 3: Something that we just kind of like made up and

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Speaker 3: didn't have to be a part of what human life is.

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Speaker 3: Something like I don't know, parades. You know, a lot

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Speaker 3: of different cultures have parades, but that's probably not a

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Speaker 3: biologically mandated behavior. That's just something culture made up. Or

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Speaker 3: is pretend play actually biologically mandated? Is it biologically programmed

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Speaker 3: in the human animal? And if it is the latter,

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Speaker 3: that sort of implies that it confers a survival or

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Speaker 3: reproduction advantage. So what would that be? So for this question,

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Speaker 3: I wanted to look at a really really interesting paper

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Speaker 3: published in twenty seventeen in the journal Trends in Cognitive

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Speaker 3: Sciences called why do the Children Pretend Play? By an

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Speaker 3: author named Angeline S. Lillard, who is a professor of

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Speaker 3: psychology at the University of Virginia and she runs a

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Speaker 3: research center there called the Early Development Laboratory. I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to cover everything Lillard gets into in this paper,

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Speaker 3: but I wanted to give kind of a sketch of

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Speaker 3: her main argument and pick some interesting things to pull

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Speaker 3: out and talk about. So at the beginning of this article,

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Speaker 3: Lillard reviews a lot of the same evidence we've already

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Speaker 3: looked at earlier in the series, pointing to a pretty

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Speaker 3: standard schedule for development of pretend play in childhood, saying

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Speaker 3: pretend play usually begins by around eighteen months of age,

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Speaker 3: often with object substitution, though in the last episode we

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Speaker 3: looked at a few kind of very specific types of

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Speaker 3: pretend play that are often observed to pre date object substitution,

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Speaker 3: but object substitution is a big early milestone, usually occurring

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Speaker 3: by around one and a half years old. And then

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Speaker 3: talking about how pretend play seems to peak around the

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Speaker 3: age of three to five and most often stops around

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Speaker 3: the age of eleven. I think in the last episode

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Speaker 3: we cited a researcher who said it's around nine or

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Speaker 3: ten when it starts to wane. Lillard says around the

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Speaker 3: age of eleven is when it usually ceases, though the

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Speaker 3: question of whether it actually ceases is also debatable, and

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Speaker 3: in some cases kids keep pretending longer, and you can

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Speaker 3: make arguments that activities sustained into adulthood are actually continued

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Speaker 3: types of pretend play, maybe sort of in disguise or

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Speaker 3: not so much in disguise. Now, Lillard makes the argument

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Speaker 3: that because pretend play of some form is culturally universal

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Speaker 3: and it's development schedule is fairly regular and predictable. It's

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Speaker 3: probably an evolved biological trait and not just a contingent

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Speaker 3: behavior that we happen to create through culture, and I

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Speaker 3: think I would agree that this seems likely based on

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Speaker 3: that information. So Lillard asks the question that I brought

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Speaker 3: up a minute ago. If it is a biological trait

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Speaker 3: of our species, and if it's not just an epiphenomenal

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Speaker 3: byproduct of some other capacity like symbolic thinking, what evolutionary

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Speaker 3: advantage does pretending provide? As an aside, we already looked

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Speaker 3: at some possible answers to this question in that twenty

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Speaker 3: fifteen paper by Weisberg that we talked about in earlier

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Speaker 3: parts of the series. So it was brought up that

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Speaker 3: maybe pretend play helps facilitate the development of counterfactual reasoning,

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Speaker 3: symbolic understanding, and theory of mind. Though, as you'll recall,

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Speaker 3: Weisberg highlighted that these correlations are difficult to study in

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Speaker 3: a way that's practical, rigorous, and ethical. So while some

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Speaker 3: studies do provide hints in support of all three of

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Speaker 3: these links, the evidence is fairly weak. It's mostly just

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Speaker 3: establishing correlations. Lillard's paper also notes how difficult this is

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Speaker 3: to study and the indirect quality of much of the

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Speaker 3: evidence available to us. We have some indications, specifically, like

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Speaker 3: from tragic examples of children who suffered social isolation and infancy,

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Speaker 3: that early deprivation of normal interaction with human caregivers can

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Speaker 3: lead to noticeable deficits in pretend play later in childhood.

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Speaker 3: So like children who don't have enough human social interaction

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Speaker 3: when their babies tend to play pretend much less when

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Speaker 3: they're older, suggesting some kind of link between pretend play

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Speaker 3: and socialization. However, Lillard's paper makes use of a very interesting,

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Speaker 3: totally separate line of evidence for the biological function of

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Speaker 3: pretend play, and that is the analogy of non human animals.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, whether animals play this is probably a question

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Speaker 2: that has already been bouncing around people's minds as they

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Speaker 2: listen to these episodes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and so specifically it'd be the question of

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Speaker 3: whether animals play pretend because I think it's pretty widely

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Speaker 3: agreed by researchers in the relevant fields that animals do play.

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Speaker 3: In this paper, Lillard refers to one particular definition of

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Speaker 3: play that has been popular used in a lot of

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Speaker 3: research and It comes from a psychologist named Gordon Berghart,

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Speaker 3: and Burghart's criteria for play I think he had five

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Speaker 3: of them. The criteria or that one we've already talked

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Speaker 3: about this that it's not functional, meaning that it's not

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Speaker 3: activity that is necessary for survival in any direct way.

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Speaker 3: So even if you enjoy chopping wood, chopping wood is

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Speaker 3: not considered play. To use Lillard's summary quote, is voluntary

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Speaker 3: and pleasurable. It differs in form or some other way

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Speaker 3: from the functional expression. It is repeat and it tends

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Speaker 3: to occur under conditions of abundance not stress. Now, if

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Speaker 3: you look at those criteria, I think it's widely agreed

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Speaker 3: that many species of non human animals, especially a lot

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Speaker 3: of vertebrates in mammals, engage in play. But do these

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Speaker 3: animals play pretend? This is more controversial, but Lillard makes

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Speaker 3: the case that at least some forms of animal play

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Speaker 3: should be considered examples of pretense. And both of these

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Speaker 3: are fortunately going to be familiar to us and to

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Speaker 3: listeners because we can see them in our pets. I think,

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Speaker 3: in fact, it's maybe not even a coincidence that play

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Speaker 3: would be especially common among the animals that we happened

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Speaker 3: to make our domestic companions. So first example is playing

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Speaker 3: with inanimate objects as if they were live prey. You

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Speaker 3: can see this in cats, you can see this in dogs.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure you've seen plenty of this in your home.

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Speaker 2: Rob.

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Speaker 3: You know, a cat will often any little furry thing,

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Speaker 3: or maybe doesn't in some cases, maybe doesn't even have

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Speaker 3: to be all that furry. It could be an aluminum ball,

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Speaker 3: or it could be a piece of string or something

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Speaker 3: like that. They will play with it and treat it

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Speaker 3: as if it were a mouse or some other kind

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Speaker 3: of prey animal. They will bat it around, they will

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Speaker 3: bite it, they will chase it, and so forth.

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Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, we see this all the time. Yeah, ranging

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Speaker 2: from what we call the most dangerous game of finger mouse.

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Speaker 2: This is where you move your finger underneath the blanket.

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Speaker 2: Not recommended because it's an easy way to get your

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Speaker 2: finger scratched in or bitten. But yeah, all manner of toys,

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Speaker 2: laser beams, you name it.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I didn't even think of the laser pointer. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but I used to do the same thing when I

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Speaker 3: had cats. You know, you move your hand or your

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Speaker 3: toes around underneath the blanket. Yeah, and it drives absolutely nuts.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then my cat does not need any encouragement

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Speaker 2: to attack body parts. She attacks my feet all the time.

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Speaker 3: Now, there's an interesting finding that Lillards, which is that apparently,

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Speaker 3: in like formal studies of this type of play behavior

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Speaker 3: in cats, apparently as cats become older, on average, the

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Speaker 3: object needs to be increasingly similar to an actual prey

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Speaker 3: animal to induce the playing response. This will obviously vary

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Speaker 3: from cat to cat, but on average, more often a

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Speaker 3: kitten will attack anything you know. It will play with string,

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Speaker 3: will play with aluminum balls, whatever you know. It's all

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Speaker 3: a mouse to the kitten. But an older cat, as

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Speaker 3: it matures, will increasingly only be enticed into this type

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Speaker 3: of game by something that resembles in some way an

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Speaker 3: actual prey animal.

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Speaker 2: Well, my cat, I can safely say, is not average.

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Speaker 2: She's quite old at this point, but she still plays.

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Speaker 2: And some of her favorite items just recently have been

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Speaker 2: things like a plastic milk cap like off of an

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Speaker 2: oat milk jug. How if she had a great time

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Speaker 2: with that, buttons things like that, anything she can get

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Speaker 2: her claws on, so it doesn't seem to necessary. We

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Speaker 2: have other toys that do resemble rodents or birds or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and she's into those as well, But otherwise she doesn't

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Speaker 2: seem to discriminate. Now, not making this an episode about cats,

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Speaker 2: but I think obviously there's something to be said here

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Speaker 2: too about the domestic in house cat, like a fully

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Speaker 2: indoor cat versus a cat that's going indoors and outdoors.

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Speaker 2: This is a fully indoor cat, and I know there

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Speaker 2: have been various observations made about like what that does.

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Speaker 2: Does that keep a cat in more sort of a

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Speaker 2: semi permanent stage of kitten hood to some degree? Maybe

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Speaker 2: that has an effect on how they associate with toys.

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Speaker 2: Maybe you see more of this average situation that's laid

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Speaker 2: out here. If the cat actually has physical access to

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Speaker 2: normal prey animals on a regular basis.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems quite plausible to me.

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Speaker 2: Though.

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Speaker 3: An interesting thing that Lillard notes here is that there

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Speaker 3: is the opposite observation in humans that as children get older,

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Speaker 3: it's usually less important for the play object to resemble

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Speaker 3: the real object in order for them to play pretend

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Speaker 3: with it. And so because of differences like this, Lillard

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Speaker 3: thinks that the treating and inanimate object as life prey

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Speaker 3: is not a great analogy for human play However, there's

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Speaker 3: another thing observed in animals which she thinks is maybe

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Speaker 3: a good analogy for human pretend play, and that is

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Speaker 3: play fighting. We've probably all seen this before in dogs,

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Speaker 3: but in the scientific literature, play fighting is characterized as

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Speaker 3: a social locomotive play activity where animals try to gain

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Speaker 3: temporary physical advantage over one another in a way that

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Speaker 3: somewhat resembles the behavior of those same animals as adults

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Speaker 3: in violent competition, but is different in that the animals

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Speaker 3: typically take turns being the aggressor and that the fight

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Speaker 3: behaviors are truncated. The dog might in a play fight,

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Speaker 3: it might put its jaws around the other dog's body,

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Speaker 3: maybe put the jaws around the neck, but it does

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Speaker 3: not bite down, or it doesn't usually, and if it does,

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Speaker 3: that's a you know, that's clearly not what the behavior

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Speaker 3: is intended to produce. Lillard argues that play fighting could

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Speaker 3: be viewed as an analog for pretend play in humans

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Speaker 3: and gives a number of reasons. For example, both of

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Speaker 3: these activities pretend to play in humans and play fighting

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Speaker 3: involve creating an as if scenario where the play activity

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Speaker 3: appears to be a modified representation of a real activity,

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Speaker 3: but with limits put on it, like the play fighting

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Speaker 3: stops before the bite pressure is too much, and so forth.

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Speaker 3: Lillard writes quote as Baitsen also pointed out, an animal

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Speaker 3: that is engaged in play fighting must read a behavior

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Speaker 3: as denoting a behavior different from the behavior it resembles.

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Speaker 3: And then the sub quote of baits in here quote

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Speaker 3: the play f denotes the bite, but it does not

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Speaker 3: denote what would be denoted by the bite. In other words,

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Speaker 3: the playful nip is a pretend bite, just as a

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Speaker 3: child can pretend talk into a pretend phone to symbolize

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Speaker 3: really talking into a real phone. In this way, both

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Speaker 3: pretend play and play fighting behaviors are symbolic. They mean

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Speaker 3: something other than what they are. She also calls attention

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Speaker 3: to the fact that both pretend play in humans and

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Speaker 3: play fighting in other mammals rely on the exchange of

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Speaker 3: specific ritualized gestures and indicators that the activity is play

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Speaker 3: and not real. And I don't think I was aware

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Speaker 3: of a lot of this. For example, she talks about

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Speaker 3: a bunch of observations in rats that when rats playfight,

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Speaker 3: and apparently they do this a lot. Rats playfight. She says,

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Speaker 3: when they playfight they don't bite at or target the

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Speaker 3: same areas of the body that they do when rats

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Speaker 3: are actually fighting in real violent competition. So when they're

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Speaker 3: play fighting, she says, they target a nuzzle like the

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Speaker 3: nape of the neck, whereas real fighting and tends to

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Speaker 3: involve attacks on the flanks and the lower back. And

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Speaker 3: apparently they also emit high pitched ultrasonic vibrations when they're

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Speaker 3: play fighting, which other rats can hear, which seems to

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Speaker 3: help the rats avoid mistaking a bid for a play

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Speaker 3: fight with the threat of a real fight. Now, understanding

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Speaker 3: those kinds of gestures and social communication and rats might

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Speaker 3: not be very intuitive to us, but we can easily

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Speaker 3: see the same kind of thing in dogs with the

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Speaker 3: famous play bow. Now, if you've ever seen dogs doing

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Speaker 3: play fighting, you will quite frequently, often at the beginning

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Speaker 3: of the encounter, and then at certain moments throughout the

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Speaker 3: play fighting session, the dogs will kind of back up,

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Speaker 3: and then they will bow the front of the body

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Speaker 3: down and spread their paws apart and put their head

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Speaker 3: down with the back of the body up with the

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Speaker 3: haunches the butt raised up, and and I've got a

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Speaker 3: picture here for you to look at. Rob though I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you're familiar with this on your own as well.

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Speaker 2: Well. I mean, now that it's pointed out to me,

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Speaker 2: I have seen dogs doing this, and I guess I'm

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Speaker 2: realizing for the first time that this must be why

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Speaker 2: we call the pose and yoga down dog, because we

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Speaker 2: are creating a pose that looks like this. I always

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Speaker 2: just thought like, well, okay, it's just I'm not all fours.

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Speaker 2: I'm sort of like a dog right now. But I

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Speaker 2: guess this is the name thing.

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Speaker 3: So in yoga it's the butt is up, the head

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Speaker 3: is down.

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Speaker 2: Correct. Yeah, okay, though usually in the picture you're showing

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Speaker 2: here the dogs four paws, four arms are on the ground,

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Speaker 2: and yeah, that's usually not the case with down dog,

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Speaker 2: though there are versions of down dog where you do

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Speaker 2: have four arms down. I guess that's more gets sended

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Speaker 2: like dolphin and so forth. But anyway, enough animals. We're

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Speaker 2: talking about dogs, right.

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Speaker 3: So studies show that playbows are they really are used

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Speaker 3: for social communication. Like you can see that they're most

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Speaker 3: common right after a candid play fight has sort of

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Speaker 3: pushed the limits or has for some reason become ambiguous. So,

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Speaker 3: for instance, when a play bite just got pretty rough,

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Speaker 3: you know, like a dog. They're playing, but one bit

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Speaker 3: the other kind of hard, it seems. Then the playbow

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Speaker 3: would be deployed. It's used to regulate the shared understanding

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Speaker 3: of the activity and to signal kind of sorry about that.

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Speaker 3: We're still in play mode. This is not a real fight.

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Speaker 3: And in this way this would be considered a form

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Speaker 3: of meta communication, allowing all the participants in an activity

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Speaker 3: to continually understand the correct frame in which the shared

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Speaker 3: activity should be interpreted. It's the signal this is play,

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Speaker 3: this is not real. And it turns out that with

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Speaker 3: pretend play humans do this too. There are specific kinds

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Speaker 3: of gestures and signals that have been observed within human

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Speaker 3: play fighting, but even out side the realm of play

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Speaker 3: fighting and just in pretend play that the kinds we've

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Speaker 3: been talking about in this series so far. Maybe cooking

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Speaker 3: in a play kitchen, or using a banana as a telephone,

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Speaker 3: or using a little block as a car, you know,

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Speaker 3: an object substitution enactment play, any of these things. The

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Speaker 3: signals used to communicate pretend to play might be more

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Speaker 3: culturally variable in humans than in dogs. But for example,

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Speaker 3: research in the United States has particularly found that when

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Speaker 3: mothers play pretend with young children, they use specific body

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Speaker 3: language cues such as strong eye contact, mistimed movements, and

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Speaker 3: a smile immediately following the pretend behavior. And so like

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Speaker 3: I can imagine all these kind of things kind of

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Speaker 3: like exaggerated weird movements that kind of looking at the child,

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Speaker 3: making eye contact and then smiling after you say, like

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Speaker 3: here's the phone. Also, this is not mentioned in the

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Speaker 3: the study, but I really thought about like using a

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Speaker 3: different voice. You know, we've talked about about parental voice

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Speaker 3: modulation on the show before. I think we did a

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Speaker 3: whole episodes on this of like the you know, the

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Speaker 3: baby voice, the way parents tend to speak to children,

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Speaker 3: and like what kind of purpose that serves where it

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Speaker 3: comes from. But I think there's a version of this

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Speaker 3: with pretend to play too. Like I notice when we

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Speaker 3: start taking on a pretense, I kind of sound different.

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Speaker 3: I'm doing something with the timing of my speaking and

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Speaker 3: the pitch of my voice and stuff that I'm not

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Speaker 3: normally doing when I'm just playing with my daughter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that makes sense. Yeah, I mean we often

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Speaker 2: don't think about it, but we're sort of conveying that. Okay,

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Speaker 2: we're shifting over one degree to the left or the

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Speaker 2: right here into the imagination space.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Oh, this book is a boat now, yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: And so you can think about different reasons for this

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Speaker 3: meta communication within the play itself. So like in play fighting,

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Speaker 3: meta communication is important for physical safety, you know, like

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Speaker 3: you don't want the fight to you don't want the

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Speaker 3: play fight to escalate to a real fight. So meta

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Speaker 3: communication literally helps dogs and rats and humans avoid hurting

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Speaker 3: one another. But with pretend to play in human children,

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Speaker 3: it strikes me that it's probably important for something we

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Speaker 3: talked about earlier in the series information quarantining, to prevent

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Speaker 3: children from drawing incorrect lessons about reality from a game

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Speaker 3: of pretend, you know, so the child does not end

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Speaker 3: up thinking that a remote control can actually place phone calls.

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Speaker 3: We're showing this is play so that the child doesn't

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Speaker 3: learn something that's wrong. So in this paper, Lillard looks

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Speaker 3: at studies of play fighting in animals to see what,

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Speaker 3: if anything, can be established about its survival and reproduction value.

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Speaker 3: What does it do for or the animals. This section

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Speaker 3: involves a lot of discussion of the difficulties and limitations

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Speaker 3: in designing these experiments, and the paper is worth a

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Speaker 3: read if you want to learn more about that. But

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Speaker 3: to mention one prominent example type of experiment she brings up.

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Speaker 3: It is an experiment where you take a baby rat

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Speaker 3: and pair it in its enclosure only with a single

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Speaker 3: adult female rat and no littermates. Now, with other littermates present,

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Speaker 3: a baby rat will typically engage in play fighting as

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Speaker 3: it matures, but when it is paired only with an

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Speaker 3: adult female rat, the baby rat will receive socialization from

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Speaker 3: the adult, so it's not like total social isolation or deprivation.

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Speaker 3: But adult female rats specifically will not engage in play fighting,

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Speaker 3: so this seems to reasonably well isolate and remove play

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Speaker 3: fighting on its own. But it's important to note that

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Speaker 3: this is not a perfect isolation of the variable because

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Speaker 3: having littermates is the norm for baby rats, so this

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Speaker 3: is not just like a perfectly normal baby rat with

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Speaker 3: only play fighting taken away. It's just getting as close

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Speaker 3: to that as researchers can. Are there any differences in

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Speaker 3: rat development from this setup? Oh? Yes, a few examples.

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Speaker 3: Rats that grow up with socialization but without play fighting

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Speaker 3: have trouble interpreting social signals later in life. For instance,

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Speaker 3: later if another rat tries to initiate play fighting, the

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Speaker 3: deprived rat will often misinterpret it as a bid for

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Speaker 3: real fighting. They also have difficulties with other types of

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Speaker 3: social communication. They have difficulties with mating and with copulation,

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Speaker 3: and it seems that across multiple domains, rats that don't

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Speaker 3: have experience with play fighting just have trouble reading social

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Speaker 3: signals from other rats. Also, the lack of juvenile experience

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Speaker 3: with playfighting seems to change the development of the medial

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Speaker 3: prefrontal cortex in a rat's brain, and the behavioral result

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Speaker 3: of this is a difficulty with the inhibition of impulses.

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Speaker 3: And I thought this part was really interesting. Lillard infers

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Speaker 3: that play fighting helps develop a rat's inhibition skills because

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Speaker 3: play fighting is an exercise in inhibition. You are sort

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Speaker 3: of fighting, but you're not really going all the way

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Speaker 3: you have to. In fact, one of the key skills

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Speaker 3: of play fighting is to stop yourself from really biting

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Speaker 3: the other rat hard. So counterintuitively, when we see, you know,

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Speaker 3: animals or children play fighting, we often think of this

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Speaker 3: as like, you know, you might have feelings like, oh,

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Speaker 3: are they developing aggression? I mean, it's possible that that

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Speaker 3: could be happening too, But counterintuitively, play fighting seems to

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Speaker 3: be a way to get experience holding back aggression.

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Speaker 2: This is also a topic that may tie into some

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Speaker 2: things I've read about domestic cats and whether, like to

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Speaker 2: what extent a given cat has been exposed to other cats.

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Speaker 2: I'm to understand this can have an impact on, say,

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Speaker 2: how likely they are to bite if they are perturbed

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Speaker 2: or wishing to express something like, you know, have they

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Speaker 2: had enough of I guess the feline equivalency of the

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Speaker 2: play fighting model.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I've never heard of that. But if I'm understanding

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Speaker 3: you right, you're saying it's the idea that if a

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Speaker 3: cat has grown up around other cats, they are more

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Speaker 3: likely to inhibit or hold back the expression of aggression

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Speaker 3: with say, humans in the household.

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Speaker 2: That is what I've heard. Now, I did not go

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Speaker 2: into research on this for this episode, so it's entirely possible.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when I get it the most wrong, it's in

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00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 2: cases like this where it's nothing I researched. It's just

436
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: something floating around in my head. So I would say,

437
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 2: don't take that to the bank. But it's out there,

438
00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 2: at least in the form of owner folk wisdom, and

439
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: it may have scientific underpinnings as well. Well.

440
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 3: I feel like if that's true, that would line up

441
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: exactly with these findings, and that that would be really interesting.

442
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 2: My cat is here, but she's asleep, so I can't

443
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:14,399
Speaker 2: I can't get any foul asker.

444
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, in the conclusion of this section, Lillard says,

445
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,960
Speaker 3: quote taking turns at being dominant also involves inhibition. You

446
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:25,479
Speaker 3: think about it that way, So it's not just like,

447
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 3: you know, when you get the better of another animal

448
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:30,879
Speaker 3: in play fighting and you bite down on them, but

449
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: you don't really bite down all the way. That's inhibition.

450
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,680
Speaker 3: You have to have the executive function to hold back.

451
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: But also taking turns involves a type of holding back.

452
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 3: I would imagine. I haven't done research on this either,

453
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 3: but I would imagine just in general and the human analogy,

454
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 3: like any kind of sharing or relinquishing and relinquishing power

455
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 3: over something within a game involves a type of inhibition control.

456
00:26:58,119 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, that makes sense.

457
00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:03,520
Speaker 3: So Lillard says, maybe play fighting is really important for

458
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 3: strengthening the neural circuitry behind inhibition. And if you don't

459
00:27:08,240 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 3: have play fighting in these animals where it's common, that

460
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 3: circuitry for inhibition doesn't really develop fully. So looking over

461
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,119
Speaker 3: all this research in rats, Lillard says that that playfighting

462
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:22,120
Speaker 3: is probably important for the development of a rat's ability

463
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: to read social signals from other rats, to coordinate social

464
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:31,280
Speaker 3: activity with other rats, to regulate stress, and exercise inhibition

465
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 3: or holding back behaviors. Now the question is, of course,

466
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:39,840
Speaker 3: could pretend to play serve similar functions in human development.

467
00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 3: Lillard argues yes, And though she's cautious to say, you know,

468
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:47,600
Speaker 3: we shouldn't conclude too much on the basis of analogies

469
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:51,560
Speaker 3: with other animals, but in the absence of stronger experimental

470
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 3: designs on humans, which are probably not going to be

471
00:27:54,160 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 3: forthcoming for very understandable reasons, this is a really interesting,

472
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 3: if only partial piece of the pick. Sure, So essentially

473
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 3: her idea is that pretend play in humans might be

474
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: important for understanding social signals and for emotion regulation. I

475
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier that pretend to play in humans involves a

476
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:19,640
Speaker 3: lot of reading of social information or metacommunication between parents

477
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 3: and children, or at older ages, between children and other children.

478
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 3: So we had those things like the strong eye contact,

479
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 3: the smile after the pretend action. You know, we alluded

480
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: to the kind of pretend play voice. These signals let

481
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 3: the child know that what is taking place is play

482
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 3: and it is not to be taken literally.

483
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 2: This also reminds me of some of the research we've

484
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: discussed in the past concerning laughter. Laughter is a social cue.

485
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: Oh yes, potentially to let other individuals know that there

486
00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:52,960
Speaker 2: is not a risk and so forth.

487
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 3: Totally, I think they could fit right in the suite there.

488
00:28:56,560 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: So anyway, from here, Lillard goes on to analyze an

489
00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 3: number of other experiments that have tried to establish links

490
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 3: of this sort between early pretend play and specifically with

491
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,640
Speaker 3: theory of mind, which is heavily involved in social communication

492
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,520
Speaker 3: and understanding. So there's some big overlap there, and Lillard

493
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 3: proposes a possible causal model that goes something like this,

494
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: So early pretend play sensitizes a child to social signals.

495
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:26,800
Speaker 3: This is the meta communication that goes on when you're

496
00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 3: playing pretend, all the little eye contact cues and the

497
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 3: changes of voice and the little things you do to

498
00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 3: let the child know that the banana is not really

499
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 3: a phone. We're playing a game right now. This is

500
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,959
Speaker 3: a separate reality, and so that makes the child sensitive

501
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 3: to those social signals. This sensitivity, in part helps a

502
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 3: child develop the capacity for symbolic understanding, Lillard writes, quote,

503
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: Yet this sensitivity alone would not develop the symbolic function. Rather,

504
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 3: it is the sensitivity in concert with the fact that

505
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:06,720
Speaker 3: the parent is presenting reality at two levels to the child,

506
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,560
Speaker 3: where one level serves as a symbol for the other. Thus,

507
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: both parental pretend and the child's sensitivity to social signals

508
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 3: are postulated to undergird the symbolic function, which is also

509
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: used in language and the interpretation of other symbols. And then, finally,

510
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 3: after this, the symbolic understanding in turn helps the child

511
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: with theory of mind. Now, how would symbolic understanding lead

512
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 3: to theory of mind? Lillard says that it is crucially

513
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 3: quote learning that reality can exist at two levels, the

514
00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 3: nip and the bite, the banana and the telephone, the

515
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 3: false belief and the reality. So this ties into the

516
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 3: theory of mind. So like the symbolic understanding that there

517
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 3: can be two different realities, like what I know to

518
00:30:55,640 --> 00:31:00,640
Speaker 3: be true versus what I know sally incorrectly thinks to

519
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 3: be true. It is this ability to think at multiple

520
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:08,880
Speaker 3: levels of reality that leads to typical adult social functioning.

521
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 3: In large part through theory of mind. So Lillard writes

522
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 3: about this in the end quote there might be continuity

523
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 3: then with pretend play and play fighting. In both cases,

524
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 3: metacommunication is key and fundamental in humans. This ties into

525
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 3: a symbolic capacity that is not well developed in other species,

526
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 3: but a common root is reading social signals indicating that

527
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 3: a behavior is to be interpreted at other than face value.

528
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 3: And then finally, also Lillard goes on to have another

529
00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 3: section about the connection between between pretend play and self

530
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: regulation or inhibitory control, like we already talked about, and

531
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: that one also seems plausible too, because the very act

532
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 3: of pretending is in a way an exercise in holding back.

533
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,200
Speaker 3: It could be in play fighting holding back aggression. But

534
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 3: in the case of just say like playing pretend, playing

535
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:07,400
Speaker 3: in a play kitchen, or playing banana as telephone, you

536
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 3: are holding back the exercise of what you know to

537
00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 3: be really the case, it's an inhibition type of impulse

538
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 3: that allows you to say, actually, I will not act

539
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 3: on what I know to be reality. Instead, I will

540
00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 3: act on this secondary pretense scenario. So anyway, I found

541
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:28,719
Speaker 3: this model very interesting, and especially in the way that

542
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,800
Speaker 3: I don't know it highlights just how convoluted human development

543
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 3: can be. Like if Lillard is correct about this, say

544
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,800
Speaker 3: about the pathway that sort of starts with a child

545
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 3: being sensitized to social signals and metacommunication through pretend to

546
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 3: play in the same way that animals probably are through

547
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 3: play fighting, and that's somehow leading to like all of

548
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 3: these complicated adult capacities through the mediating capacity of symbolic understanding.

549
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's fascinating to imagine just how unpredictable

550
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 3: the development process of a human mind could be. That

551
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 3: you wouldn't necessarily make that connection without having all of

552
00:33:07,440 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 3: these pieces of evidence to establish in between make that

553
00:33:10,720 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 3: connection between you know, like reading gestures and body language

554
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 3: in pretend play to the final conclusion of adult socialization

555
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: and theory of mind.

556
00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,520
Speaker 2: I think one of the really interesting takes on pretend

557
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: play in creativity in general that we've been looking at

558
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,000
Speaker 2: is this idea that you know, you can sort of

559
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: look at it as this scaffolding that is used to

560
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,600
Speaker 2: sort of construct the mature psyche, you know, and our

561
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 2: sort of semi completed adult forms. And yet the other

562
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: interesting side of the coin is to look at ways

563
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,160
Speaker 2: in which we continue to engage in creative endeavors, including

564
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:05,520
Speaker 2: pretend play, and the possibility that okay, all that scaffolding

565
00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:10,360
Speaker 2: is still there and perhaps it can be reutilized to

566
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: help us with problems and challenges that we face as adults.

567
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: And so yeah, I talked more broadly about creativity in

568
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,759
Speaker 2: general and pretend play specifically in adults. In the last episode,

569
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,520
Speaker 2: we touched on some examples such as Dungeons and Dragons,

570
00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 2: a tabletop role playing game. I imagine most people listening to

571
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 2: the show know a Dungeons and Dragons, says, we didn't

572
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: stop to describe it, but of course it is pen

573
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,759
Speaker 2: and paper, sometimes miniatures, whole books of rules, and of

574
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 2: course sometimes it has digital components. But at the core,

575
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: it is a scenario that's taking place within the heads

576
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,680
Speaker 2: of the players. It is a shared storytelling creative endeavor.

577
00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 2: And so that is frequently brought up as an example

578
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,120
Speaker 2: of pretend play that you know, kids engage in and

579
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,759
Speaker 2: adolescents engage in, but also plenty of adults do. We

580
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,600
Speaker 2: also have the example of improv theater as a big

581
00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 2: one that has lines up with pretend play in a

582
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: number of ways. And then we also touched briefly on

583
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: Graveside conversations with the Debt as an example of adult

584
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,520
Speaker 2: humans speaking to an imagined mind state, something that you

585
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 2: could almost compare to speaking with an imaginary friend, you know,

586
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: with all the caveats that we discussed in that last episode.

587
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: So today I wanted to follow up on all of

588
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,720
Speaker 2: that with a look at some additional literature that gets

589
00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:40,880
Speaker 2: a little more in depth about the benefits of adult

590
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 2: pretend play. But I do want to drive home again

591
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,439
Speaker 2: that this is certainly an example where there's so much

592
00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: material out there and our understanding of how imagination, play

593
00:35:53,239 --> 00:35:57,719
Speaker 2: and creativity factors into adult lives and what the benefits are.

594
00:35:57,760 --> 00:36:00,399
Speaker 2: You know, this continues to develop. So I've hand really

595
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 2: helpful article by Alyssa Mwison titled Do grown Ups Pretend Play?

596
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,839
Speaker 2: Or I'm sorry, do grown Ups Play Pretend? And her

597
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 2: primary focus professionally is on mental childhood development, but in

598
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 2: this she also lines things up with the adult experience

599
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:24,120
Speaker 2: of engaging and pretend play, and she explores different imaginative

600
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:27,160
Speaker 2: adult activities that arguably match up with the idea of

601
00:36:27,200 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: pretend play. She brings up D and D of course,

602
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 2: she brings up cosplay, which we briefly touched on I think,

603
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 2: you know, the idea that you might dress up as

604
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:40,879
Speaker 2: a favorite fictional character and to certain extents act as

605
00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 2: that fictional character at say some sort of a convention.

606
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 2: She brings up LARPing live action role playing, which also

607
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: crosses over into the realm of play fighting of course,

608
00:36:53,560 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 2: you know, on stage fighting and so forth, which is interesting.

609
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: You're not actually trying to kill some with a LARPing sword.

610
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: Hopefully not.

611
00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:05,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then she also brought up an example that

612
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,279
Speaker 2: I hadn't really thought of that much in terms of

613
00:37:07,640 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 2: pretend play, but engagement with fictional media, especially books, but

614
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: also movies and TV shows. And I think that this

615
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: is something that might not line up with every definition

616
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 2: of pretend play, but it's food for thought, especially so

617
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 2: far as written fiction goes. I was thinking about this,

618
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: and we might we might throw non visual works in

619
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 2: there as well, audio books, podcasts certainly, and also I

620
00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 2: think low five visual storytelling as well. Like I'm thinking,

621
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 2: you know that sweet spot of like retro role playing

622
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 2: games where the visuals on the screen gave you a

623
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,279
Speaker 2: representation of what things were and where they are, But

624
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 2: then you might have this additional mental image and a

625
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: mental version of what was happening. That's more akin to say,

626
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:52,400
Speaker 2: engaging with a book.

627
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: And do you make this distinction, because something like engaging

628
00:37:56,960 --> 00:38:00,839
Speaker 3: with a book is more of a participatory imaginative than say,

629
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,160
Speaker 3: passive media like watching a TV show.

630
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:06,319
Speaker 2: By and large, But at the same level, I have

631
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: to acknowledge that even like it's easy to say be

632
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,680
Speaker 2: dismissive of cinema and say, well, the movie is giving

633
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: you everything you need, is giving you the visuals, the sound,

634
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 2: and then it doesn't leave anything to the imagination. But

635
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 2: certainly not every scene is laying it all out there.

636
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,240
Speaker 2: There are plenty of moments where we as the viewer

637
00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: have to imagine what is being seen by the protagonist.

638
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 2: We imagine the monster that's been glimpsed, or we imagine

639
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,760
Speaker 2: the monster in full than when we only see its feet,

640
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:37,640
Speaker 2: or you know, various scenes where characters are describing something

641
00:38:38,200 --> 00:38:41,800
Speaker 2: and we don't see it. They're just telling a story.

642
00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: And it's essentially more of an odd audio based storytelling situation.

643
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 2: But certainly with a work of written fiction, you know, okay,

644
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: it's going to tell its story, it's going to describe

645
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,880
Speaker 2: thoughts and action and it's going to guide you along

646
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:59,239
Speaker 2: its course, it's going to plant its seeds. But the

647
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 2: author some times from beyond the graves, of course, you know,

648
00:39:02,880 --> 00:39:06,360
Speaker 2: thinking thoughts directly into your active mind, or not directly

649
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 2: via the book, but but you know, reading the social work,

650
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's not an entirely devoid of personal

651
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 2: imagination or even imaginative choices. I imagine many of you

652
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:22,360
Speaker 2: have this, have had this experience where you make a

653
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:26,200
Speaker 2: like a mental note of what a character looks like,

654
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 2: or you even decide how you will cast them in

655
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,399
Speaker 2: your imagination. I used to do this a lot when

656
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 2: I was a younger reader, and I'll occasionally lean on

657
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 2: this technique if I'm reading something that has a confusing

658
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 2: cast of characters, or I'm having a trouble keeping track

659
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,000
Speaker 2: of everyone. I'm like, Okay, what's this person's last name?

660
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 2: And then I'm like, okay, you're Harry Dane. Stand. We're

661
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 2: just gonna we're just gonna try and streamline this a

662
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: little bit. And I imagine various folks engage in varying

663
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,800
Speaker 2: degrees of this, though you know it's not always the case.

664
00:39:59,360 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 2: But even if you don't actively decide how you're going

665
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,360
Speaker 2: to interpret something visually. When you're reading, your mind is

666
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: still visualizing the information that has been conveyed to you,

667
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 2: like via your own mind. You know, it's working off

668
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: the various models, the various people you've seen and encountered.

669
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:25,359
Speaker 2: So there is still this like creative endeavor to that's

670
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: entirely a product of your mind as a particular story

671
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:33,400
Speaker 2: is coming to life in your head. Now, some of

672
00:40:33,400 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 2: that is me just spitballing there. But she argues that

673
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 2: adults engage in such activities as these for many different reasons,

674
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: and that these reasons generally line up with some of

675
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 2: the reasons that children engage in imagination play. To learn,

676
00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 2: to have the experience of traveling somewhere, to to have

677
00:40:51,880 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: various experiences you wouldn't have in your normal life, to laugh.

678
00:40:56,440 --> 00:40:59,879
Speaker 2: And then all of these experiences can be empathetic, they

679
00:40:59,880 --> 00:41:03,960
Speaker 2: can be personally empowering, and much more. Now, Mewison mentions

680
00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 2: the importance of mastery and psychological distance in play for children.

681
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,680
Speaker 2: We see both of these. Of course, children tend to

682
00:41:11,719 --> 00:41:15,080
Speaker 2: pretend to be older, more experienced individuals when they're playing.

683
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: There are, of course counterexamples to that, but she refers

684
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 2: to something that has been dubbed the Batman effect, where

685
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:27,400
Speaker 2: children will stick to a task longer if they're pretending

686
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: to be someone else, generally someone with a greater degree

687
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 2: of mastery. In this term, the Batman effect stems from

688
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: a twenty seventeen study by White at All published in

689
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 2: Child Development Batman Effect Improving perseverance in young children. You

690
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 2: can probably guess what this consists of. I've heard of this, yeah, yeah,

691
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:50,799
Speaker 2: So they in this study, they looked at six and

692
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: four year olds and they found, quote, children who impersonated

693
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 2: an exemplar other, in this case, a character such as Batman,

694
00:41:58,719 --> 00:42:01,879
Speaker 2: spent the most time I'm working, followed by children who

695
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,560
Speaker 2: took a third person perspective of the cell on the self,

696
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:09,760
Speaker 2: or finally a first person perspective, so, you know, creating

697
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 2: that psychological distance and embodying like a person of mastery,

698
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:19,280
Speaker 2: the extreme of course being Batman.

699
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, this makes me think about the nature of

700
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 3: enjoyment in an activity and flow states and such. You know,

701
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 3: it's often said that you are essentially in a flow

702
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:35,839
Speaker 3: state when you are engaging in an activity that's sort

703
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: of maximally challenging but also still within your ability to

704
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 3: do and you're getting consistent feedback that you are doing

705
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 3: it correctly. So like an activity that's too easy can

706
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:51,080
Speaker 3: be boring, an activity that is too hard if you

707
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 3: feel like you're just failing at it over and over,

708
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:56,880
Speaker 3: it becomes frustrating. And so I wonder if assuming a

709
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:03,799
Speaker 3: kind of exemplar character mind state allows you to simulate

710
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 3: flow even if, like for you, this activity you neither

711
00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,080
Speaker 3: you maybe don't have actual mastery of it. You are

712
00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: continually making mistakes, but it's part of the game to

713
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 3: just not acknowledge that and say like, I'm doing it

714
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 3: perfectly or maybe around the maybe on the other side,

715
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,279
Speaker 3: maybe it makes it more exciting and activity that would

716
00:43:22,320 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 3: otherwise be so easy that it's boring.

717
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or I mean you're just you're becoming Batman. You're

718
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 2: taking on grim determination to finish a task. Like would

719
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 2: Batman stop sweeping the floor halfway through? No, he would

720
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 2: buckle down and finish the job, because that's how Batman

721
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: does it. Well.

722
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 3: You never see Batman finish the job, do you, It

723
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 3: always cuts away right after the most exciting part. Do

724
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: you see Batman, like making the hand off to the

725
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,759
Speaker 3: police and all that. I guess occasionally he often leaves

726
00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 3: them right hanging by battering in an alley. Yeah, so

727
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 3: interesting to think about, and I would, of course, I

728
00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 3: would be game to hear any examples of the man

729
00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:04,440
Speaker 3: effect from anyone's lives or the lives of children in

730
00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:09,360
Speaker 3: someone's life. But the question then emerges, do adults do

731
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 3: this as well?

732
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,720
Speaker 2: Well? Muissen mentions an acquaintance of hers who she says

733
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: channeled something she's dubbing the Buffy effect. So this individual

734
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: was preparing for childbirth and channeled Buffy the vampire Slayer

735
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: just sort of find the like I don't know, to

736
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 2: get in the zone for what was to come. So

737
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 2: that's and that's that's interesting, And I would love to

738
00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:37,240
Speaker 2: hear from any listeners out there who have some version

739
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:41,880
Speaker 2: of this, Like if you ever embodied or you know,

740
00:44:42,120 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 2: pretend played to some extent a fictional character in order

741
00:44:45,640 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: to make it through some you know, big or small

742
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: trial in your life. Maybe it's sweeping the floors, maybe

743
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: it's childbirth, very different endeavors, but you can imagine where. Yeah,

744
00:44:56,360 --> 00:44:58,320
Speaker 2: you can sort of like psych yourself into it a

745
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 2: little bit. Like it reminds me of this is a

746
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,840
Speaker 2: much I guess more casual version of this, But you

747
00:45:02,880 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 2: hear people talking about like engaging in beast mode or something,

748
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 2: you know, to sort of like beast through a particular

749
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 2: challenge or a workout, et cetera. And you know, I mean,

750
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: on one level, yeah, it's just a saying, but is it, Like,

751
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: you know, language is powerful, and if we're engaging in

752
00:45:20,320 --> 00:45:23,120
Speaker 2: beast mode, are on on some level? Are we engaging

753
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 2: in some sort of imaginablecanthropy, some imagined a hulking out

754
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:30,440
Speaker 2: in order to complete a task.

755
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 3: I can speak from personal experience that sometimes a difficult

756
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:37,879
Speaker 3: like workout, physical workout task is easier if you make

757
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 3: the kinds of noises that are not polite to make

758
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: at the gym, you know, if you like really roar

759
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 3: or grunt. I mean, I understand why gims would prefer

760
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 3: people not do that, but it kind of does help.

761
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 2: I kind of forgot that there's like a no grunting,

762
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:52,800
Speaker 2: no sound effects rule in some gems.

763
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 3: I don't know if they all have that, but yeah,

764
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:57,680
Speaker 3: I think someplace they're like, please please don't scream at

765
00:45:57,719 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 3: your you know, the person on the machine next to you.

766
00:46:01,160 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 3: But no, I think it does kind of help and

767
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 3: I wonder, I don't know, maybe there's a totally different

768
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 3: mechanism at play there, but one could see how it

769
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 3: could also just be part of like imagining yourself in

770
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: some more dramatic kind of scenario than you actually are.

771
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:17,480
Speaker 3: Like you're not just doing a workout, you are, you know,

772
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 3: you're crossing some incredible hurdle in some kind of dramatic scenario.

773
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,760
Speaker 2: Well, even if you are not like on any level,

774
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: pretend playing that you were a beast during your workout,

775
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: you still might be entering into like a slightly different

776
00:46:33,640 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: mindset and a slightly different version of yourself, you know,

777
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 2: like like and you're not just gym now your workout gym,

778
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:43,759
Speaker 2: you know, or workout Jane or whatever the case may be,

779
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: you know, And I think that makes a lot of sense.

780
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 2: You know, we we often think of a cohesive self,

781
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: but we know that under close scrutiny, this doesn't you know,

782
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: completely pan out. We the person we are changes over time,

783
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: and there are often sort of like different versions of

784
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,680
Speaker 2: ourselves depending on what our environment is, you know, what

785
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 2: time of day it is and so forth. So you know,

786
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 2: you may have a you know, a workout self that is,

787
00:47:11,960 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 2: you know, a little bit to the left or the

788
00:47:13,320 --> 00:47:16,320
Speaker 2: right of who you were before you came into that workout,

789
00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: and then hopefully the person after the workout has yet

790
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: another person that is maybe a couple of degrees removed

791
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,359
Speaker 2: from your starting point. Mewison also mentions in passing the

792
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:30,320
Speaker 2: fake it till You Make it Mantra, I believe she

793
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 2: kicked off the article sort of bringing this up, you know,

794
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 2: sort of like, hey, is this imagination play? And I

795
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:38,919
Speaker 2: think maybe there is something to go on there as well,

796
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,399
Speaker 2: you know, the idea of you know, generally, when people

797
00:47:41,400 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 2: were talking about faking it till you make it, they're

798
00:47:43,440 --> 00:47:46,840
Speaker 2: talking about I guess it's it's not unlike the Batman idea.

799
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 2: It's like you're not saying I'm going to be Batman.

800
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 2: I'm going to be, you know, the professional that I

801
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:54,239
Speaker 2: think I should be in this situation, or that the

802
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 2: parent I think I should be, the spouse I think

803
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,920
Speaker 2: I should be, and so forth, and engaging in that

804
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:02,280
Speaker 2: until on some level that becomes more than norm.

805
00:48:02,440 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: Why do I have a negative feeling about that phrase?

806
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,280
Speaker 3: I guess it's perfectly fine in some scenarios. For some reason,

807
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,600
Speaker 3: I'm associating it with like engaging in fraud.

808
00:48:11,960 --> 00:48:15,280
Speaker 2: But yeah, there has been. You do see pushback against

809
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: that turn of phrase, in part because it can be interpreted,

810
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 2: I think, to sort of discount hard work and actual

811
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 2: striving for change in your life and the idea that

812
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:28,920
Speaker 2: I would just fake it and you'll eventually you know,

813
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:31,720
Speaker 2: it's I don't think we should maybe take it too literally.

814
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 3: The charitably interpreted version of it is fine. Yeah, that's good. Yeah.

815
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:39,080
Speaker 2: Now again, the Batman effect entails a certain amount of

816
00:48:39,080 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: psychological distance, and Muisen also points out that we see

817
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: elements of this in adult imaginative choices. She says that,

818
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,880
Speaker 2: you know, one may wish to engage with media that

819
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:52,960
Speaker 2: offers subjectively preferred level of psychological distance from whatever your

820
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: reality might be. The example she gives is that of

821
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:59,320
Speaker 2: parents wishing to avoid media in which children are in danger.

822
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 2: You know, I can speak to that, you know, especially

823
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 2: when I had a young child. I was like, what

824
00:49:06,400 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 2: was the movie The Babba Duke that came out? I

825
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 2: think my child was And I was like, no, thank you,

826
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:12,759
Speaker 2: I'm not going to skip on the Babba Duke. And

827
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: I still haven't gotten around to seeing.

828
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 3: Oh it's really good, but yeah, I saw it but

829
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 3: before I had a child, I can absolutely speak to this, Like,

830
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:26,720
Speaker 3: you know, becoming a parent completely changed what my sensitivities

831
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 3: in media and storytelling were, and like certain types of

832
00:49:31,000 --> 00:49:33,560
Speaker 3: things that wouldn't really have bothered me before, like children

833
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 3: in danger, suddenly became very difficult to watch.

834
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, an example that came to my mind reading this

835
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 2: article was, of course, during the height of the pandemic.

836
00:49:43,200 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 2: I know, a lot of us maybe chose not to

837
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 2: watch plague oriented media, you know, like it seemed like

838
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 2: maybe a time to skip on the zombie apocalypse scenarios

839
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,759
Speaker 2: and so forth. So I think there are different levels

840
00:49:56,760 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 2: of this depending on you know, I was subjective, you know,

841
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:01,920
Speaker 2: whatever going on in your world and more importantly in

842
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,719
Speaker 2: your life, because there could be things going on in

843
00:50:03,719 --> 00:50:06,239
Speaker 2: your world that are just not weighing, particularly on your

844
00:50:06,360 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 2: your your psyche, or you're not aware of. And then

845
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:13,479
Speaker 2: she stresses mastering control in both adult and child models here,

846
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 2: and I think this is this is pretty straightforward. You know,

847
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 2: there's so much in our lives as adults that feel

848
00:50:20,080 --> 00:50:24,120
Speaker 2: out of our control, and it may just be objectively

849
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: out of our control, and yet you know, we we

850
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: have these responsibilities and you want to at least have

851
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 2: this feeling of control, and so you sometimes find it

852
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:38,000
Speaker 2: in large acts, but often in small acts. And also

853
00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: these are the things you can find via involvement in

854
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 2: various imaginative games. I think many video games fit this

855
00:50:45,120 --> 00:50:48,439
Speaker 2: uh and and I believe that some of the most

856
00:50:48,440 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 2: frequent examples, though, concerned tabletop gaming and especially tabletop role

857
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: playing games like Dungeons and Dragons. A hallmark of some

858
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: of these experiences that that i've I've seen discussed in

859
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:01,680
Speaker 2: past papers of I've read is the idea of too

860
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: of a fixed, small scale universe, you know, I mean

861
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 2: you think of so many different sandbox video games. There

862
00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:11,279
Speaker 2: is a corner to the screen, like there is a

863
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 2: limit to the world, and so you feel like you

864
00:51:15,800 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 2: can master it in a way that you cannot be

865
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:19,719
Speaker 2: a master of reality.

866
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:24,319
Speaker 3: I think that's a really insightful point. When people talk

867
00:51:24,360 --> 00:51:27,799
Speaker 3: about like video games or RPGs being I don't know,

868
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 3: freeing or empowering in a way, I think they're usually

869
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 3: focusing on the on the power of the characters played

870
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 3: like that. It can be an empowerment fantasy in that

871
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,200
Speaker 3: you play as someone who is very capable and can

872
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 3: do a lot of things, and I'm sure that is

873
00:51:43,760 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 3: part of it as well, but I think it's absolutely right.

874
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 3: Maybe what is maybe even more important is that within

875
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 3: video games or within a tabletop RPG, you can understand

876
00:51:55,760 --> 00:51:58,640
Speaker 3: what all the rules are. You can, And that's never

877
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 3: true in reality and in life. We're all living our

878
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 3: lives playing a massive game, a massive RPG where the

879
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,600
Speaker 3: rules are not clear and maybe they're changing.

880
00:52:09,160 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And you know, very often in our video games

881
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: and our imaginative media, there is often a very clear

882
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 2: line between good and evil. You know, it's zombies or

883
00:52:20,280 --> 00:52:23,319
Speaker 2: invading robots or aliens, whatever the case may be. Like,

884
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 2: there's a clear distinction, at least on some level in

885
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 2: terms of how you're supposed to tackle adversity and so forth.

886
00:52:30,840 --> 00:52:33,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, there are clear ways to know how to play,

887
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 3: which in reality it's confusing. Yeah.

888
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 2: Now, transitioning out of Muissen here, she does mention embassa

889
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,920
Speaker 2: in therapeutic use of tabletop role playing games, and she

890
00:52:55,000 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: references a twenty twenty two Wired article by Cam Burns

891
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: how therapists you're using tabletop games to help people? And

892
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:04,799
Speaker 2: I was looking at that article. The author of this

893
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:12,160
Speaker 2: Burn speaks with clinical psychiatrists Raphael Bokemazo, and in this conversation,

894
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 2: it's stressed that tabletop role playing games, and I think

895
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 2: this is important, they're not therapy in and of themselves,

896
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:25,560
Speaker 2: and you know, you can't, like realistically look at your

897
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,600
Speaker 2: own Dungeons and Dragons night and say I am going

898
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:31,920
Speaker 2: to therapy. Rather, they can be used as a tool

899
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 2: in therapy by trained professionals, opening spaces for patients to

900
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: explore things like identity, mortality, gender, social skills, you know,

901
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,160
Speaker 2: overcoming social anxiety and so forth.

902
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:46,560
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think in the same way that like

903
00:53:46,719 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 3: sports are not therapy, but could in some scenarios be therapeutic.

904
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and could you tap into some of those therapeutic

905
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:57,600
Speaker 2: effects on your own most certainly, but not to the

906
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 2: degree that a trained professional would be able to utilize

907
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:05,880
Speaker 2: it with specific games with the right patients. Now, there's

908
00:54:05,920 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: been quite a lot written on the possibility of using

909
00:54:08,440 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons and other tabletop role playing games for

910
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:15,640
Speaker 2: therapeutic purposes. I was looking at one paper from nineteen

911
00:54:15,719 --> 00:54:19,240
Speaker 2: ninety four by Wayne D. Blackmun titled Dungeons and Dragons

912
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 2: The Use of a fantasy game in the Psychotherapeutic treatment

913
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 2: of a young adult. The adult in question had schizoid

914
00:54:25,600 --> 00:54:30,080
Speaker 2: personality disorder, and more recently you see this rolled out

915
00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:33,960
Speaker 2: as a tool in specially aimed therapy groups. I found

916
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 2: a nice article on Johns Hopkins University's website by Claire

917
00:54:38,080 --> 00:54:41,440
Speaker 2: Goudreau titled Tabletop Therapy, How Dungeons and Dragons can improve

918
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: mental health. This was from twenty twenty three, and it

919
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 2: highlights a session in which players engage. This is not

920
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 2: like you know, this is just one example of how

921
00:54:50,960 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: one particular therapy group handles it. But you might have

922
00:54:53,920 --> 00:54:57,120
Speaker 2: sixty to ninety minutes of OURPG time. Granted that's you're

923
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:59,320
Speaker 2: packing a lot in but I trust the professionals. Here

924
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 2: followed by a session in which quote the players take

925
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:04,640
Speaker 2: a step back to reflect on the session and see

926
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 2: how it relates to their own lives. And I thought

927
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 2: this was interesting because it reminded me of the pivotal

928
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:15,799
Speaker 2: integration step in some models for psychedelic assisted therapy, where

929
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,200
Speaker 2: you engage in some sort of an altered state and

930
00:55:18,239 --> 00:55:21,200
Speaker 2: then you top it off with therapists assisted reflection.

931
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 3: I can see that comparison as well.

932
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so engaging in this imaginative pretend play gaming scenario,

933
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,279
Speaker 2: but then you know, couching it in a discussion of

934
00:55:35,320 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 2: how this relates to where you are in your life

935
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 2: and whatever your current obstacles might be.

936
00:55:41,640 --> 00:55:41,879
Speaker 3: Yeah.

937
00:55:42,600 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: The other big thing that of course is stressed in

938
00:55:44,280 --> 00:55:47,200
Speaker 2: this article and in other places as well, is the

939
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 2: goal is also making therapy fun and approachable for target patients.

940
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:55,880
Speaker 2: So generally that is part of the scenario as well. Like,

941
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 2: perhaps someone is a little adverse to a therapy environment,

942
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,719
Speaker 2: but it's kind of like a great icebreaker. Well, we're

943
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 2: not going to just get in and start talking about

944
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,040
Speaker 2: our feelings or our problems. We're going to play a game.

945
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,360
Speaker 2: And you know, you'll find multiple examples of this where,

946
00:56:10,800 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 2: if not tabletop roleplaying games, sometimes just other games, card games,

947
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 2: board games, and so forth are used to sort of,

948
00:56:16,840 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 2: you know, break that ice down a little bit.

949
00:56:18,840 --> 00:56:21,600
Speaker 3: I wonder how this interacts with Robert. I'm sure you

950
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 3: know what I'm talking about. Heret that, at least in

951
00:56:25,120 --> 00:56:30,840
Speaker 3: my limited experience with tabletop RPGs, there is kind of

952
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:35,880
Speaker 3: a difficulty adults have taking it too seriously, and so

953
00:56:35,960 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 3: there's often a lot of joking involved, where like, you know,

954
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:42,840
Speaker 3: it's not like we're embarrassed to be playing D and D.

955
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 3: But you know, we all came here for fun. This

956
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 3: is what we like to do. But there is a

957
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:51,280
Speaker 3: kind of ongoing like rhythm of being in the game

958
00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:53,960
Speaker 3: and then moments of stepping back and kind of meta

959
00:56:54,000 --> 00:56:57,160
Speaker 3: commentary and joking about what's going on, and then changing

960
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:59,440
Speaker 3: the subject and talking about something in the real world

961
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 3: and then getting back to the game. And at least

962
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 3: that's my experience, And I wonder if that's there's just

963
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,800
Speaker 3: a difficulty I think for a lot of adults to

964
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:12,760
Speaker 3: engage and sustained pretend to play like a tabletop RPG

965
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 3: in the way that kids can, where kids can just

966
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 3: you know, like really take it seriously, stay in character

967
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:18,680
Speaker 3: and keep it going.

968
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been it's been my experience that this is

969
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 2: very hard to come by with adults, even if you

970
00:57:25,320 --> 00:57:28,440
Speaker 2: kind of like set a goal for yourself. And I

971
00:57:28,440 --> 00:57:31,000
Speaker 2: mean I would also stress just you know, casually, whatever

972
00:57:31,040 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: your gaming environment is. Yeah, it's like, you know, you

973
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: don't want to force anything on your group. Maybe your

974
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 2: group is doz lean more serious. Maybe it's a bunch

975
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: of goofballs. If it's a bunch of goofballs, maybe don't

976
00:57:41,640 --> 00:57:45,520
Speaker 2: go for that super grim dark serious scenario unless I

977
00:57:45,560 --> 00:57:47,600
Speaker 2: don't know. I think sometimes you can find a nice

978
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,720
Speaker 2: balance though, where like for instance, when I recently ran

979
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:54,360
Speaker 2: Alien RPG stuff with my group, we're generally more in

980
00:57:54,400 --> 00:57:57,400
Speaker 2: the goofball spectrum, but for some reason we were able

981
00:57:57,440 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 2: to do that one in a way which felt appropriately serious.

982
00:58:00,680 --> 00:58:03,200
Speaker 2: But we still had a lot of like goofball moments

983
00:58:03,240 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 2: doing it. And maybe there was a certain maybe to

984
00:58:05,440 --> 00:58:07,600
Speaker 2: a certain extent, it had to do with like distance

985
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 2: from the character. So it's almost like you were watching

986
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 2: a movie play out and you could you could have

987
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,880
Speaker 2: these laughs while still engaging in the seriousness of the story.

988
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:17,480
Speaker 2: I'm not sure.

989
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:20,080
Speaker 3: I mean to be clear, I wasn't trying to say

990
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:21,960
Speaker 3: people should do it one way or the other. It's

991
00:58:22,080 --> 00:58:24,920
Speaker 3: just my observation of how these things usually go is

992
00:58:24,960 --> 00:58:27,720
Speaker 3: there's a lot of kind of a lot of stepping

993
00:58:27,800 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 3: back and almost almost maybe deliberate kind of signals of

994
00:58:32,840 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 3: we're not taking this too seriously. We're joking now, haha.

995
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:38,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean getting it. It's like play fighting, right, yeah,

996
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 2: because you are often dealing with these themes of mortality

997
00:58:42,480 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 2: and failure, you know, rolling a natural one missing your

998
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,000
Speaker 2: shot and then getting run through by a goblin sword

999
00:58:49,120 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 2: or something, and you know, and if if you're not careful,

1000
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:57,960
Speaker 2: you can let emotions run run high in those those situations. Now,

1001
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,160
Speaker 2: I've seen other studies that highlight the potent for tabletop

1002
00:59:01,240 --> 00:59:04,439
Speaker 2: role playing game assisted therapy with autistic adults to help

1003
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 2: with social cognition. Like I say, this is kind of

1004
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,800
Speaker 2: a it seems like a rich area of therapy where

1005
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 2: folks are exploring different potential uses. On one hand, play

1006
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,240
Speaker 2: seems to certainly be that spoonful of sugar that can

1007
00:59:19,240 --> 00:59:21,280
Speaker 2: help the medicine go down, like, you know, let's make

1008
00:59:21,320 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 2: therapy fun and approachable, but it also seems to have

1009
00:59:24,120 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 2: unique properties undo itself, you know. Again kind of comparing

1010
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,440
Speaker 2: it to some degree with the idea of engaging in

1011
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 2: a psychedelic experience and then having a therapist help you

1012
00:59:33,960 --> 00:59:37,440
Speaker 2: integrate that into your life, you know, like, let's use

1013
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: some of that mental scaffolding that we talked about earlier

1014
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:45,080
Speaker 2: and see how we can get to where we're looking

1015
00:59:45,120 --> 00:59:50,480
Speaker 2: to go with therapy. Now, I mentioned improv as well.

1016
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: I looked at a pair of studies from twenty sixteen

1017
00:59:53,440 --> 00:59:57,440
Speaker 2: to twenty seventeen. There is a comedic improv Therapy for

1018
00:59:57,480 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 2: the treatment of Social anxiety disorder by All Journal of

1019
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:04,480
Speaker 2: Creativity and Mental Health, and the other one is theraprov

1020
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,400
Speaker 2: a pilot study of improv used to treat anxiety and

1021
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 2: depression Kruger at ALL Journal of Mental Health. The former

1022
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 2: highlighted quote a novel treatment for social anxiety disorder by

1023
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 2: harnessing the following therapeutic elements group, cohesiveness, play, exposure, and humor,

1024
01:00:20,320 --> 01:00:24,080
Speaker 2: while the latter article explored a brief therapeutic group based

1025
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 2: intervention model for patients with symptoms of anxiety and depression.

1026
01:00:30,040 --> 01:00:31,520
Speaker 2: So I'm not going to get into all the beats

1027
01:00:31,600 --> 01:00:34,800
Speaker 2: of these two studies, but both articles expressed a great

1028
01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: deal of optimism for the use of these techniques alongside

1029
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,800
Speaker 2: other treatments, other treatment methods and tools. I've also looked

1030
01:00:41,800 --> 01:00:45,000
Speaker 2: at some papers exploring the potential for integrative play therapy

1031
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:50,840
Speaker 2: already used for children more in adult situations, And of

1032
01:00:50,840 --> 01:00:54,200
Speaker 2: course there are other play based therapy tools that are

1033
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,160
Speaker 2: used with adults as well, including a big one that

1034
01:00:57,400 --> 01:00:59,880
Speaker 2: I completely spaced on, and that is art therapy.

1035
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm aware that exists, but I don't really know

1036
01:01:03,160 --> 01:01:03,959
Speaker 3: anything about it.

1037
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:05,760
Speaker 2: Right right, I mean, I don't. It's one of those

1038
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:08,120
Speaker 2: things where I'm mostly familiar with it from seeing it

1039
01:01:08,160 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: in passing in films like, for instance, there's a at

1040
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: some point in Stranger Things, there's a scene where you

1041
01:01:14,600 --> 01:01:17,880
Speaker 2: see people engaging in art therapy, and or you know,

1042
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,400
Speaker 2: you'll I've watched TV shows where the characters involved do

1043
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 2: something with art therapy. But yeah, you can definitely loop

1044
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: art therapy in with other play based therapy models, you know.

1045
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,440
Speaker 2: So perhaps this is a topic we could come back

1046
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 2: to at some point, the idea of play based therapy,

1047
01:01:34,000 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 2: or more specifically art based therapy, because it's been around

1048
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,880
Speaker 2: since in some form or another since at least the

1049
01:01:39,920 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: mid twentieth century, and there have been a number of

1050
01:01:42,760 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 2: studies regarding how it can be used to help with

1051
01:01:46,360 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 2: various conditions and ailments. Well, you know, as we close

1052
01:01:50,480 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 2: out this five episode look at pretend play, I do

1053
01:01:53,600 --> 01:01:57,400
Speaker 2: feel like I have a more well rounded understanding of

1054
01:01:57,520 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 2: what children are doing when they engage in pretend play,

1055
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,720
Speaker 2: as well as to the extent to what extent we're

1056
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,560
Speaker 2: continuing to engage and pretend play throughout our adult lives.

1057
01:02:07,920 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah, it really makes me think about when

1058
01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:16,880
Speaker 3: we see these games children play that seem so funny

1059
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 3: that I think sometimes adults are tempted to think of

1060
01:02:21,840 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 3: play as frivolous, or to think of pretend play as

1061
01:02:24,920 --> 01:02:28,959
Speaker 3: especially frivolous. You know, these like silly scenarios that kids

1062
01:02:28,960 --> 01:02:34,000
Speaker 3: are making up is something that's just sort of, you know,

1063
01:02:34,240 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 3: not an important human activity. And it seems to me

1064
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 3: that that couldn't be further from the truth that play

1065
01:02:40,240 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 3: really is like the important work of childhood, and pretend

1066
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:45,640
Speaker 3: to play is maybe the most important kind.

1067
01:02:46,240 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, children's play is serious. It's building the person they

1068
01:02:50,520 --> 01:02:53,920
Speaker 2: will become. And then like the scaffolding is just not

1069
01:02:54,040 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: just abandoned after that, you know, like we're still using

1070
01:02:57,080 --> 01:03:00,680
Speaker 2: it to varying degrees, sometimes kind of invisibly to ourselves

1071
01:03:01,320 --> 01:03:03,360
Speaker 2: as we go through our daily life as adults.

1072
01:03:03,720 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, play is building minds.

1073
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 2: There you go, that would look great on a bumper

1074
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:10,120
Speaker 2: sticker T shirt what have you.

1075
01:03:10,960 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 3: But all right, I guess that does do it for

1076
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:13,600
Speaker 3: the series for now.

1077
01:03:14,080 --> 01:03:16,520
Speaker 2: That's right. Again, we'd love to hear from everyone out there.

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Speaker 2: We're getting some great feedback from listeners. I'm sure we're

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Speaker 2: going to have a listener mail in the very near

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Speaker 2: future where we begin to roll through some of this

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Speaker 2: examples of imaginary friends and paracosms and so forth. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: right in. We'd love to hear your thoughts on all

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Speaker 2: of this, either from your own personal experience as a

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Speaker 2: pretender or observations you've made of children in your life

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Speaker 2: that are pretending or animals. Certainly we already mentioned dogs

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Speaker 2: and cats. Write in about your dogs and cats and

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Speaker 2: their possible pretend play and play in general. Just a

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Speaker 2: reminder that Stuff to Blow Your Mind is primarily a

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Speaker 2: science and culture podcast, with core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

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Speaker 2: We do a little short form episode on Wednesdays, and

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Speaker 2: on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to just

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Speaker 2: talk about a weird film on Weird House Cinema.

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Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our regular audio producer JJ Posway,

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Speaker 3: but also big thanks today to our guest audio producer

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Speaker 3: Andrew Howard. Thanks Andrew H. If you would like to

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Speaker 3: get in touch with us with feedback on this episode

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01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:19,880
Speaker 3: or any other, to suggest a topic for the future,

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Speaker 3: or just to say hello, you can email us at

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Speaker 3: contact at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com.

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Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

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01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,720
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.