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Speaker 1: Hello everybody, Welcome back to the show. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, new listeners, old listeners. Wherever you are in

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Speaker 1: the world, it is so great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Back for another episode. As we, of course break down

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Speaker 1: the psychology of our twenties, there is a lot of

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Speaker 1: back and forth about what we should be doing in

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Speaker 1: our twenties. Even more so, I think what we should

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Speaker 1: be doing with our lives. Should we be pursuing success,

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Speaker 1: should we be content and fulfilled with the slow life?

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Speaker 1: What would make us the happiest, what would make us

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Speaker 1: the most fulfilled? Big questions, very big questions, and a

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Speaker 1: lot of us are looking for one particular answer. The

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Speaker 1: thing is, I don't think we ever will have the answers,

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Speaker 1: but we do have the stories of individuals who have

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Speaker 1: taken the most remarkable, unexpected paths through life and can

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Speaker 1: really share their wisdom with us. You know, what they've learned,

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Speaker 1: what they wish their younger self would know, what they

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Speaker 1: have to say about fear, and what they have to

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Speaker 1: say about finding purpose their mistakes. Today, I had the

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Speaker 1: privilege of getting to speak to one of these individuals,

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Speaker 1: a poet, a mental health advocate. You've probably seen her

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. A very wise woman, Victoria Hutchins, and every

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Speaker 1: piece of advice she gave today felt so important and

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Speaker 1: so life changing. Without further ado, welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Victoria Hutchins, how are you going?

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Speaker 2: Hi, Jima, Thank you so much for having me. I'm

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Speaker 2: so happy to be here. I am such a rabid

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Speaker 2: fan of psychology of your twenties, so this is a thrill.

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Speaker 2: I'm delighted. I'm doing great. How are you?

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Speaker 1: You're doing great? Yeah, I love hearing that I'm doing

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Speaker 1: good as well. What a surprise with us both doing good?

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Speaker 1: Full moon at the moment. Have you had any creepy

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Speaker 1: things happen, any weird energy shifts?

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Speaker 2: Well, today has been a day. So my poetry book

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Speaker 2: Make Belief comes out on Tuesday, as we record this,

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Speaker 2: So today I went to the independent bookstore in Houston

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Speaker 2: that I'm doing the signed copies with, and signed copies,

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Speaker 2: so that was just like I was crying all day

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Speaker 2: just because it felt so special. I'm sure it had

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Speaker 2: something to do. It's a full moon too, because it's

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Speaker 2: also a total lunar eclipse, so it was like a

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Speaker 2: super powerful full moon.

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Speaker 1: Not gonna lie. That makes a lot of sense and

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Speaker 1: like the background of my life right now. So many

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Speaker 1: things have just happened literally in like the last twenty

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Speaker 1: four to forty eight hours. Obviously I'm such a scientific person,

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Speaker 1: but I do feel like that sometimes I really notice

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Speaker 1: when there's like shifts in just like our collective energy

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Speaker 1: as humans. And I definitely noticed that today, So I'm

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Speaker 1: glad I'm not the only one. I definitely also cry

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Speaker 1: today as well. So okay, she had a few tears,

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Speaker 1: maybe at the same time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we've kind of jumped right into it. But I

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Speaker 1: do want you to introduce yourself to the listeners who

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Speaker 1: may not know how powerful and amazing you are.

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Speaker 2: You're so sweet, high listeners. I'm Victoria Hutchins. I am

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Speaker 2: a content creator. I'm a poet. I until recently was

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Speaker 2: a corporate lawyer. So I left my job as an

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Speaker 2: attorney about a year and a half ago to do

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Speaker 2: a bunch of different things on the internet. So it's

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Speaker 2: been a really strange and beautiful past few years. I

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Speaker 2: love to write and talk and think about mental health.

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Speaker 2: I love to write about nostalgia and childhood, body image,

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Speaker 2: thinking about purpose, thinking about mortality. I know that's a

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Speaker 2: little dark. But those are some of the themes in

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Speaker 2: make believe in things that I like to talk about.

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Speaker 2: And so makes sense that I'm an avid listener of

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Speaker 2: psychology of your twenties because I feel like you talk

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Speaker 2: about those things a lot.

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Speaker 1: Gemma, I was literally I was listening to that being like, ah.

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Speaker 2: Tick tick, dating, friendship, would you talk about a lot too? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: all the things, Yeah, we grapple with in our twenties.

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Speaker 1: And you know what, all the things we grapple with

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Speaker 1: as humans. But you've had this like really incredible path.

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Speaker 1: And one of the big reasons I wanted to bring

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Speaker 1: you on is obviously to talk about vulnerability and hope

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Speaker 1: and art and creativity, but also to talk about big

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Speaker 1: life changes and making career shifts and career changes not

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Speaker 1: even later in life, but at a time when it

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Speaker 1: doesn't feel expected. So one of the big reasons that

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Speaker 1: I wanted you to come on is not just because

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Speaker 1: you are this incredible healer and to talk about creativity

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Speaker 1: and vulnerability, but also to talk about your path from

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Speaker 1: having that corporate career to doing what you do now.

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Speaker 1: One of the big series of questions and like themes

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Speaker 1: of questions that I get so much of people in

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Speaker 1: their twenties is I don't know what I want to

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Speaker 1: do in my life. I don't know how to figure

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Speaker 1: out that path, and I feel like I need to

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Speaker 1: decide right now and look in for this career. What

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Speaker 1: was your experience perhaps with a similar feeling.

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Speaker 2: So I will say I think it's super normal to

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Speaker 2: feel that way. I definitely felt that way. And if

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Speaker 2: there's one thing that being in my thirties and having

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Speaker 2: a drastic career change at the end of my thirties

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Speaker 2: or at the end of my twenties rather and the

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Speaker 2: start of my thirties has showed me life is long,

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Speaker 2: you know, we have We have way more time than

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Speaker 2: we think we do, and it is normal and okay

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Speaker 2: to change your mind. I think that, at least in

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Speaker 2: the US, the education system implores you to decide what

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Speaker 2: you're going to do for the rest of your life

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Speaker 2: when you're eighteen years old, and that's just not realistic.

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Speaker 2: And so for me, I was always someone who loved

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Speaker 2: creativity as a child. Nothing lit me up like acting, poetry,

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Speaker 2: anything like that I loved. However, I think there's a

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Speaker 2: time for many of us where we kind of realized

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Speaker 2: those types of hopes aren't practical, or we start to

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Speaker 2: think that they are, and I definitely experience that. So

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Speaker 2: I specifically remember the moment that I sort of pivoted

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Speaker 2: away from the dream of doing something creative. I was

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Speaker 2: a sophomore in high school and I went to visit INYU,

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Speaker 2: which is a college in New York City, and I

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Speaker 2: wanted to do something creative at that time. I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be an artist or an actress. And I remember

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Speaker 2: visiting NYU and just feeling so intimidated. Everything about it

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Speaker 2: intimidated me. And I think on that trip, I kind

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Speaker 2: of I've realized, Okay, this isn't practical. Let me just

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Speaker 2: try to be really good at school, and I will

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Speaker 2: just go the passionless route. I will just have a

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Speaker 2: job that isn't what I'm passionate about. And look, I

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Speaker 2: still believe in that model. For a lot of people,

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Speaker 2: your career doesn't have to be your passion. But for me,

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Speaker 2: I think I always deeply wanted that. And so even

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Speaker 2: though I stayed the course of like going to a

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Speaker 2: super serious school, then law school, then straight to a

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Speaker 2: huge law firm, that feeling never went away. It never

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Speaker 2: went away, and so I found myself approaching thirty still

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Speaker 2: having that scratching feeling in my brain, and so I

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Speaker 2: think that you do not have to know what you

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Speaker 2: want to do with the rest of your life in

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Speaker 2: your twenties. However, if you have a gut feeling of

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Speaker 2: not this, it's probably not going to go away, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so I think noticing that feeling that you're desiring

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Speaker 2: a change is a really important step that could happen

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Speaker 2: for a lot of people in their twenties.

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Speaker 1: You know. It reminds me of this beautiful saying that

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Speaker 1: if it's your calling, it won't stop calling, which I

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Speaker 1: really really like. And I think sometimes people get really

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Speaker 1: stressed because they're like, well, I don't even have one

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Speaker 1: of those yet. I love that you said we have

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Speaker 1: so much more time than we think, because it is

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent truth. We just don't realize it because

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Speaker 1: we are so engrossed in the moment, which is a

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Speaker 1: good thing at times. It's good to be present, but

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Speaker 1: we don't reflect on how many changes have already happened

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Speaker 1: in our lives that we've survived and we've been good

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Speaker 1: at and that have been for the best, and how

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Speaker 1: many changes are yet to come right we just see

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Speaker 1: ourselves as in this present moment. And you know, at eighteen,

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a politician, Like I went to

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Speaker 1: a political science university and I just did psychology because

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Speaker 1: it was fun. And then I was working as a

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Speaker 1: management consultant, which I love that we both have these

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Speaker 1: very corporate careers where no one really knows what we

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Speaker 1: do on the day to day, but like they know,

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Speaker 1: it's you get paid for it to now doing the

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Speaker 1: creative thing. And I think that battle between passion and

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Speaker 1: practicality is a very, very very present one in a

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Speaker 1: lot of our lives. For you, did you have a

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Speaker 1: turning point where you were like, I cannot ignore this calling,

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Speaker 1: this voice, this creative drive any longer.

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Speaker 2: Well, so, I think I had a couple different turning

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Speaker 2: points in my career. There was a moment when I

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Speaker 2: was at my law firm where I had a panic

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Speaker 2: attack on a conference call. I was working a ton

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Speaker 2: and it's very hard to explain. It's the only panic attack,

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Speaker 2: at least like that, that I've ever had. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: feel my hands, I couldn't breathe. I thought I was

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Speaker 2: having like a medical incident. I thought I was having

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Speaker 2: a heart attack or something, and I think after that experience,

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Speaker 2: I knew something had to change. However, I didn't leave

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Speaker 2: law at that time. I went on to go in house.

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Speaker 2: So I went to work for a cybersecurity company. Stayed

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Speaker 2: practicing law, but it was under less demanding circumstances. I

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Speaker 2: had more work life balance. And it's funny because I

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Speaker 2: thought that that would scratch the itch, right. I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: now I'll have time to engage with my passions as hobbies.

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Speaker 2: I'll have time to practice yoga, I'll have time to write.

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Speaker 2: And the first thing that happened when I left my

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Speaker 2: law firm is I was so burnt out that every

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Speaker 2: moment that I wasn't working my new job, I was sleeping.

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Speaker 2: I think we forget that. You know, you think you're

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Speaker 2: going to be able to just dive from one end

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Speaker 2: of the spectrum to the other, but often you're deeply

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Speaker 2: burnt out when you leave a job that has been

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Speaker 2: draining for you for a long time. So that was

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Speaker 2: the first phase. I thought I was going to dive

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Speaker 2: into all these hobbies, and really I just slept because

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Speaker 2: it was the first time my body felt I think

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Speaker 2: I came out of that fight or flight after a.

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Speaker 1: Really long time, like survival mode. Almost yes, And important

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Speaker 1: to note like people think that a weekend off gets

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Speaker 1: rid of burnout. Recovering from burnouts like a six to

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Speaker 1: twelve month process.

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Speaker 2: It was long. That's so interesting to hear because that

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Speaker 2: was exactly my experience. And then after I started to

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Speaker 2: come out of burnout, I did start to engage with

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Speaker 2: my hobbies and that felt really good. But I found

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Speaker 2: that it was just I wanted more, more, more. It

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Speaker 2: wasn't enough for me to engage with my hobbies as hobbies.

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Speaker 2: The more I poured into them, the more I wanted

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Speaker 2: to do them, until I was because I still had

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Speaker 2: a corporate job that was pretty demanding. I was still

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Speaker 2: working eight to ten hours a day, but I would

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Speaker 2: finish that and then stay up till like three o'clock

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Speaker 2: in the morning writing poems and just be waiting for

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Speaker 2: the moment I could get away to pour into my hobbies.

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Speaker 2: And so I found that the moment I came back

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Speaker 2: to my hobbies, they started to swallow me whole very fast,

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Speaker 2: and so it was sort of just like rolling down

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Speaker 2: a hill versus a turning point.

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Speaker 1: From there, I love this swell swallow mehole totally what

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Speaker 1: it feels like.

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Speaker 2: It was that your experience, because I know you worked

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Speaker 2: a corporate job before the podcast, what was that like

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Speaker 2: for you.

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Speaker 1: I was literally listening to you being like, yeah, absolutely,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell a little story, a little secret here, which

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Speaker 1: hopefully no one from my old workplace is listening, although

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really matter at this point. But I used

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Speaker 1: to do like podcast work on my work computer and

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Speaker 1: pretend that I was working, so I would be like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I wasn't like I was busy, but like

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Speaker 1: I wasn't you know, I was still busy, but if

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Speaker 1: I could like find time, I would literally sit there

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Speaker 1: and I'd have two documents up and one was whatever

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Speaker 1: I was working on and one would be like an episode.

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Speaker 1: And sometimes I would I would get in this zone,

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Speaker 1: like my peak hours for productivity are like seven to

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Speaker 1: nine pm at night, and I can just get so

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Speaker 1: much done during that period. And obviously I was working

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Speaker 1: a really intensive job, so sometimes I wouldn't finish work

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Speaker 1: until seven pm or later. And so instead of risking

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Speaker 1: that productivity period to go home and get on the train,

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Speaker 1: I would just use my work computer and then email

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Speaker 1: it to myself and would just sit there and I

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Speaker 1: remember this like really senior like partner, like senior director

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Speaker 1: was like, wow, you're always working so hard, like we

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Speaker 1: need to give you a promotion, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: this isn't for you guys, like I don't giving a

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Speaker 1: fuck about this job. Like I was just like, this

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Speaker 1: is for me, exactly.

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Speaker 2: I mean that makes so much sense to me, and

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Speaker 2: I relate so much. And it is when you have

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Speaker 2: a passion that's growing, nothing can stop you from focusing

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Speaker 2: on it. It's like the best productivity hack ever to

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Speaker 2: just love whatever you're doing, Like hours can pass and

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Speaker 2: you can just be. It can be like no time past.

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Speaker 2: I know that's a very psychologically supported thing to like

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Speaker 2: flow state, but exactly, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's one of the highest forms of consciousness, highest forms

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Speaker 1: of focus, highest forms of attention. Is when you feel

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Speaker 1: equally challenged and excited by something, passionate and driven by

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Speaker 1: it as well. So this is the thing that we

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Speaker 1: can take from this. Right if you are someone who's

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Speaker 1: sitting there being like, wow, that sounds really really fun

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Speaker 1: that you two are talking about how you found your

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Speaker 1: purpose and you're calling what can I do? Like how

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Speaker 1: does that help me? You really need to pay attention

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Speaker 1: to the moments where you feel like you were floating

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Speaker 1: in a task or an activity, The moments where you

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Speaker 1: feel the time is just passing you by, where you

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Speaker 1: feel completely plugged in. That is what you need to

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Speaker 1: pay attention to. That urge to just do and make

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Speaker 1: or be or talk or whatever it is, whatever skill

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Speaker 1: or physicality or anything. You just feel like you are

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Speaker 1: just drawn to do it. That is your calling. It

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Speaker 1: might not look like a calling because you're like, how

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Speaker 1: do I make a job out of this? But explore

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Speaker 1: it more and you'll definitely definitely find it. Did you

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Speaker 1: experience any like pushback maybe from your parents when you

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Speaker 1: are like, hey, I'm going to quit being a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: which is a very understandable job, and become a poet

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Speaker 1: and a healer and a yoga teacher or a practicer

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Speaker 1: of yoga. What was the reaction to that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think so. My parents were initially very skeptical.

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Speaker 2: I remember going home for the Christmas holidays and telling

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Speaker 2: them trying to explain because by that point it was

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Speaker 2: I was growing and I was trying to explain to them,

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Speaker 2: this is a career. People do this, because at that

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Speaker 2: time it was sort of the Internet. I'm thinking about

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Speaker 2: leaving my job to do the Internet. So that's not

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Speaker 2: even something they really heard of. Content creator. That was

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Speaker 2: all new to them, and so I think they were

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Speaker 2: a little skeptical. My husband was a little skeptical. I'm

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Speaker 2: lucky to have a lot of supportive people in my

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Speaker 2: life who love me a lot. However, I'm a really

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Speaker 2: pro change person. I would say I'm not super risk averse.

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Speaker 2: That's not the case for say my husband. He's very

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Speaker 2: like he's thinking about the risks. He's an attorney as well,

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Speaker 2: but he's more has the personality type you would think

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Speaker 2: of when you think of an attorney, like he's on

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Speaker 2: me about my taxes and the just all the risks.

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Speaker 2: You know, that's where his brain goes. And I try

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Speaker 2: to remember with kind of pushback that you get from

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Speaker 2: people when you want to chase a dream, I think

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Speaker 2: it comes from one of two places. Usually it's either fear,

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Speaker 2: like these are people who love you who they're afraid

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Speaker 2: that it's not going to work out and you're gonna

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Speaker 2: get hurt and you'll be exposed and you'll crash and burn.

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Speaker 2: And that makes sense that they feel that fear, and

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Speaker 2: that's coming from a place of love. And then I

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Speaker 2: think there's another bucket of pushback, and this I would say,

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Speaker 2: no one close to me fortunately pushed back on me

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Speaker 2: in this way. But there's people who express criticism because

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Speaker 2: they resent you and because they would love to do

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Speaker 2: something different, but they wouldn't try. And so when they

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Speaker 2: see someone who is willing to actually jump off the

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Speaker 2: ledge and try, that's very triggering for them, you know,

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Speaker 2: because if you anything that you don't give yourself permission

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Speaker 2: to do, when you see someone else doing it unapologetically,

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Speaker 2: it's very like triggering and it creates a lot of resentment.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that that's helpful for me to

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Speaker 2: remember people are either just kind of validly afraid for

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Speaker 2: you because they love you and they want you to

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Speaker 2: be safe and happy, or it really doesn't have much

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Speaker 2: to do with you, and it has to do with

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Speaker 2: that person and things they don't allow themselves to do.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna pull out another quote, another saying that I

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Speaker 1: talk about on the podcast all the time. If they

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Speaker 1: can't be where you are, the next best alternative is

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Speaker 1: for them to drag you down to where they are.

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Speaker 1: And I love that one. It happens a lot normally,

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Speaker 1: not with like close family loved ones, people in the peri,

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Speaker 1: people who you maybe went to college with, people who

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Speaker 1: are kind of maybe in tend and with you in

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Speaker 1: their careers, people for whom their own fear is their

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Speaker 1: biggest problem not and you are a projection of all

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Speaker 1: their fears realized basically because you're doing it and everything's

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Speaker 1: going well, and they have this fear of doing it

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Speaker 1: and it going well or maybe going terribly, and so

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Speaker 1: there's a sense in them of like, if I was

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Speaker 1: to do this, I would fail, and here's this person succeeding,

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Speaker 1: and that's unfair because their brain has like cooked up

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Speaker 1: this like crazy scenario that they're not capable. It's a

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Speaker 1: really it's something to really watch out for, especially in

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Speaker 1: your twenties. And sometimes it comes down to jealousy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, especially among women in your twenties and thinking about

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Speaker 2: creative careers that require trying publicly, you know, things like

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Speaker 2: the Internet or that's many things where you kind of

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Speaker 2: have to try publicly first. I think it's it's so

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Speaker 2: easy to not ever try because you're worried about that

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Speaker 2: type of feedback and judgment happening. Even if you don't

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Speaker 2: have access to it. You're worried, you're in someone's group

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Speaker 2: chat or whatever. You're worried people are making fun of

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Speaker 2: you behind your back, and it's just it's possible that

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Speaker 2: they are. Honestly, however, it doesn't have anything to do

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Speaker 2: with you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you gotta climb cringe Mountain.

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Speaker 2: That's right, Like, that's Cringe.

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Speaker 1: Mountain once you like, Cringe Mountain is really scary for

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Speaker 1: the first t one hundred meters, and then it's like

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Speaker 1: a walk in the park, Like you have to get

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Speaker 1: over the parts of you that feel like I'm not

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Speaker 1: good enough for this because someone else has told me

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Speaker 1: and I'm gonna believe them. And it's this crazy thing.

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Speaker 1: I guess what we're really talking about, as well as

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Speaker 1: imposter syndrome is it's this crazy thing where we believe

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Speaker 1: others judgments so quickly, but we never really trust our own.

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Speaker 1: It's like, what is it about us and how we

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Speaker 1: were raised that it's so trusting of someone else's instincts

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Speaker 1: about us, but not what we know to be true.

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Speaker 1: When you start interrogating that a lot of stuff, A

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Speaker 1: lot of spiders crawl out of dark places. I do

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Speaker 1: want to talk about your experience posting about vulnerability online

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Speaker 1: because I absolutely love how realistic you are about optimism

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Speaker 1: and authenticity and also mental health and self care. Why

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Speaker 1: do you think it is so important to be vulnerable

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Speaker 1: about the times when life isn't good and isn't perfect.

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Speaker 2: Well, I had a really hard time in my twenties.

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Speaker 2: I had a very dark chapter, really rough mental health chapter,

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Speaker 2: just a spiral, and I think for me, when I

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Speaker 2: was navigating that, a lot of the talk around hope,

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Speaker 2: around mental health, around purpose felt super alienating. The you

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Speaker 2: just need to find your why, you just need to

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Speaker 2: keep hope. Those sort of things when you're really struggling,

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Speaker 2: at least for me, feel impossible. It feels completely impossible.

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Speaker 2: And so I think that the only thing that made

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Speaker 2: me feel less alone when I was in a really

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Speaker 2: dark place were things that showed that experience in all

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Speaker 2: of its grit, right. And so when I write about

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Speaker 2: struggling with mental health, I try to be honest about

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Speaker 2: the grit and the depths of the darkness, but also

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Speaker 2: show a light that's on the other side, because I

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Speaker 2: think that it's really impossible to keep hope when you're struggling, right,

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Speaker 2: but you can stay with the idea of being that

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Speaker 2: maybe hope exists in the future, and that's sort of

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Speaker 2: the vantage point I always try to write about the

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Speaker 2: topic of big mental health struggles. I never want people

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Speaker 2: to feel compelled to try to find hope right now,

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Speaker 2: because for me that was always impossible. But I want

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Speaker 2: people to know that it does exist in the future,

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Speaker 2: and that's worth that's worth sticking around for, that's worth

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Speaker 2: going through the motions of self care. That feels ridiculous

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Speaker 2: when you're really struggling, Like all of these things that

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Speaker 2: we do that often feel supportive if we're doing well,

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Speaker 2: like the gratitude journals or whatever. Often when you're really

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Speaker 2: in it, it feels so ridiculous and pointless. However, these

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Speaker 2: things aren't pointless. It's not pointless to go for a walk.

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Speaker 2: It's not pointless to call your friend. It's not pointless

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Speaker 2: to make a plan for next week. It can feel

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Speaker 2: that way, but I think there's so much value in

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Speaker 2: going through the motions. The title of my poetry book,

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Speaker 2: make Believe, is partially about nostalgia. It's partially a reference

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Speaker 2: to playing Make Believe as a child. It's also a

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Speaker 2: reference to the idea that we can make ourselves believe

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Speaker 2: in things by turning our attention to them. So when

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Speaker 2: it comes to hope, if we want to feel hope,

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Speaker 2: maybe a big part of that is directing our attention

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Speaker 2: towards things that suggest it exists, towards things we love

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Speaker 2: and care about. Right, And I think that even if

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Speaker 2: the emotion, even if the hope isn't there in the

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Speaker 2: first instance, the more time we spend looking for it,

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Speaker 2: the more likely it is.

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Speaker 1: To appear psychologically on proven as well. Your brain and

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Speaker 1: you have a two way relationship, and what you feed

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Speaker 1: it and what you show it is what you believe.

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Speaker 1: So say, for example, you have very limited hope around

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Speaker 1: what is our purpose here on this planet? What happens

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Speaker 1: after we die? Like what is all this about? You

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Speaker 1: can focus on all the nihilistic existential thoughts that you

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Speaker 1: probably are naturally having as a human who's curious and

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Speaker 1: scared of the unknown. Or you can focus on magic

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Speaker 1: and everything beautiful that happens that there is no explanation for,

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Speaker 1: and the joy you feel around others. Same with maybe

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Speaker 1: you're struggling thinking like and maybe going to find love.

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Speaker 1: You can focus on all the other people saying, oh

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Speaker 1: my god, dating is so horrific, dating is so awful,

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Speaker 1: This really sucks. Or you can focus on those really

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Speaker 1: surprising love stories. You can focus on the love you

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Speaker 1: feel for almost everything around you and how eventually that's

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00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 1: going to have another place. Eventually that will land and

435
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,080
Speaker 1: in the lap of someone who will reciprocate it in

436
00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: the way you want it to. So I one hundred

437
00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 1: percent agree with this sentiment and think that sometimes when

438
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 1: you are in litrenchius, at work, in a friendship, in

439
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: a relationship, just in life with your mental health, you

440
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: just have to go through the motions knowing that sometimes

441
00:26:21,880 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 1: our emotions do occur in cycles. Hope is bound to return.

442
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: Something you care about and something worth living is bound

443
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:32,400
Speaker 1: to and something worth living for is bound to come

444
00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: back around. I really like what you say about hope

445
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: is is something that sometimes just has like a mind

446
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:44,119
Speaker 1: of its own as well, Like anyone who's struggled with

447
00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 1: their mental health will know, sometimes you have no explanation.

448
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: I remember last year, like from the outside, my life

449
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,879
Speaker 1: looked literally perfect and it felt perfect. Had this beautiful partner,

450
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,240
Speaker 1: I have beautiful friends, I was doing really well financially,

451
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: I had purpose, and my whole life was falling apot

452
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: and in like a very drastic way. And then suddenly,

453
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 1: you know, I've been going through a hot period recently

454
00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 1: which I would have every reason to completely fall apot over,

455
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,320
Speaker 1: and there's just all this hype around me, and there's

456
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 1: just all this like it just feels lighter, and I

457
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:20,359
Speaker 1: haven't done anything differently that I know of. It just

458
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: sometimes comes back around.

459
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, I completely agree. It's interesting how

460
00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 2: fickle hope is. There's a line and make believe that

461
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,679
Speaker 2: it is something like hope is easy to lose and

462
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 2: hard to kill, and it is fascinating in a bad way.

463
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 2: Fascinating isn't exactly the right word. But how often I

464
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 2: think when these moments of everything appears to be going well,

465
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,399
Speaker 2: often those are the most hopeless times. I don't know

466
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 2: why that is, you know, but these moments where where

467
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 2: we appear to be on top of the world so

468
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:59,439
Speaker 2: often you hear I've experienced that myself as well, that

469
00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 2: those are people darkest times, strange like, I really relate

470
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 2: to that, and I think it's I also love what

471
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 2: you said about belief and this idea that we can

472
00:28:15,280 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 2: control the extent to which we believe in purpose and

473
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: mystery of the world by where we direct our attention

474
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 2: because and I think you've dealt with this as well.

475
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: I think I remember listening to you talk about this

476
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: on Psychology of your twenties. But I had a big

477
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,199
Speaker 2: part of my spiral in my twenties was related to

478
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 2: kind of spinning out about purpose and divinity and after

479
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,040
Speaker 2: life and death and what happens when we die. And

480
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 2: for me, this idea that I'm allowed to choose what

481
00:28:49,640 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: I believe has been life changing. I'm allowed to choose

482
00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: to believe we're doing something here, to believe to believe

483
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 2: we're in a loving universe, to believe we have a soul,

484
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: to believe there's something after this. I'm allowed to choose

485
00:29:09,800 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: to believe in those things and direct my attention towards

486
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:18,720
Speaker 2: things that suggest that that's the case, or that helped

487
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: me believe that that's the case and that's not naive.

488
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:31,719
Speaker 2: That's protecting my faith, right, and that's protecting it's making

489
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: me live my life in a way that that's more

490
00:29:35,000 --> 00:29:37,600
Speaker 2: joyful and more loving. And so to me, it doesn't

491
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: even really matter if it's true. It matters, but even

492
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 2: if it's not true, I'm still glad I chose to

493
00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: believe in things, and so that's been that's kind of

494
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: the core the heart of make believe, And yeah, you

495
00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:52,160
Speaker 2: just touched on it really beautifully.

496
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,400
Speaker 1: I have a very similar thing, which I know you

497
00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 1: just mentioned. You know this, and I have a very

498
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 1: similar thought process where I was just basically like, how

499
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: arrogant of me to assume that I know what's going

500
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,800
Speaker 1: to happen, but how arrogant of me to assume it's

501
00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: the worst case scenario, Like every single human has thought

502
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: about this, but I'm the one who got it right.

503
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: Like I'm the one who was like, it's this terrible,

504
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,440
Speaker 1: awful thing that happens after we die and life is

505
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: suffering and I know that fact for sure, and no

506
00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: one and like, huh, like.

507
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:29,800
Speaker 2: We forget so change and yeah, we forget that lack

508
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 2: of lack of belief or belief and negative things is

509
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:34,760
Speaker 2: also a belief, you know what I mean. It's still

510
00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: just like as much of a leap of faith as

511
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 2: the choice to believe one percent.

512
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,239
Speaker 1: And honestly, I need that tattooed in my body as

513
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: a reminder because it was this thing I kept getting

514
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:48,160
Speaker 1: into where I was like, oh, it's going to be

515
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: it's so terrible. And I was like, wait, but there's

516
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: all these people who don't think that, and there's this

517
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 1: beautiful theory and I'm not sure where it's come from,

518
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: but that we get to choose. Whatever your conception of

519
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: the after life is is what happens like That's that's

520
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:07,040
Speaker 1: what it's going to be. And so anytime you get

521
00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: so stressed and negative about very existential questions, put all

522
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: that energy into creating what you think would be the

523
00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: best case scenario and envision what that would feel like

524
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: and create a whole universe around it. That's a much

525
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: better Uh. But that's a much better reason and use

526
00:31:27,360 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 1: of your energy.

527
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: Absolutely regardless of whether it's the case after all this

528
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: it is because probably helps you live a more peaceful,

529
00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: joyful present life in the here and now, to not

530
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,240
Speaker 2: be obsessed over something horrible happening after this.

531
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: I love how we've just gotten totally off track and

532
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: now we're suddenly talking about death. But we are going

533
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: to take a tiny break and when we come back,

534
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 1: we're going to pivot and talk a little bit more

535
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: about anxiety and mental health, self care and of course

536
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: your own your book. Okay, we are back with Victoria Hutchins.

537
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: We are having a very in depth, deep conversation if

538
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:14,080
Speaker 1: you are just tuning in now. We've talked about hope,

539
00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,920
Speaker 1: We've talked about vulnerability, We've talked about career change. I

540
00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: want to talk about self care because I think that

541
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: the way we think about self care has become very commercialized,

542
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 1: very aligned with money and consuming more to you, what

543
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 1: does authentic self care really look like.

544
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: I think, let me start here with a very practical

545
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: thing that costs zero dollars, getting off our phones. That's

546
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 2: the thing that no one will sell you because it's

547
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 2: not in its costs money. When we get off our phones, right,

548
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: that's one of the best ways if we want to

549
00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: take care of ourselves. I think being present, being in nature,

550
00:32:57,320 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 2: taking walks, all the stereotypical things, but nothing will feel

551
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:05,080
Speaker 2: like self care if you don't do it with a

552
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: present mindset. So if you go out in nature but

553
00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:10,720
Speaker 2: you're on your phone, or you go for a walk

554
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,840
Speaker 2: but you're on your phone. I think how we do

555
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,479
Speaker 2: all these different things matters as much as whether we

556
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: do them right. And there's also your intention in the

557
00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:25,040
Speaker 2: sense of are we doing a self care activity with

558
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:29,239
Speaker 2: the aim being to change ourselves in some way. Like

559
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 2: so much of self care when it comes to women

560
00:33:33,520 --> 00:33:39,880
Speaker 2: relates to beauty practices, practices that help us maintain the

561
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 2: beauty standard. And so I think that those things can

562
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 2: be things that are acts of self care, exercising, doing

563
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 2: your skincare, etc. But if we're doing these things like

564
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 2: from a place of I hate myself and I'm trying

565
00:33:56,120 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: to change myself, I think that that starts to break

566
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: down how helpful that's going to be for you. I

567
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 2: think self care is a lifelong.

568
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:09,760
Speaker 1: Journey.

569
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:19,320
Speaker 2: I struggle with maintaining a self care routine still. I

570
00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 2: probably always will. I don't know, Jim, if you've read

571
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: the book A Perfectionist Guide to Losing Control by Katherine

572
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: Morgan Chasler, it's a great book.

573
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,560
Speaker 1: Well, I literally have it in this room somewhere. Really

574
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 1: it's yeah, has it got the matches on the front?

575
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: Is this a book I'm thinking about?

576
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: I think so it has pink on the front. I

577
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: guess maybe they are matches.

578
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think I have. I literally have this

579
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 1: book somewhere. Okay, it's staring at me. It's fantastic to me,

580
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 1: being like, you should pick me up sometimes.

581
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,319
Speaker 2: I think you would like it not to be parasocial,

582
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,680
Speaker 2: but based on listening to your podcast for years, I

583
00:34:56,680 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 2: think you would like it. But it I love that book,

584
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 2: and I think that it has really helpful things that

585
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: were really helpful to me around self care in the

586
00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 2: sense of letting go of the idea of balance as

587
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:17,240
Speaker 2: the pinnacle of self care. I think that it's pretty

588
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: inevitable that we're going to be consumed by different things

589
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,120
Speaker 2: at different stages in our life, whether it's you're in

590
00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 2: a really busy phase with your job, or you're dating

591
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:30,200
Speaker 2: someone new and that's like consuming all your energy and

592
00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:33,920
Speaker 2: all your time, or you're socializing a ton. And I

593
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 2: think that sometimes self care and balance become another yardstick

594
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 2: that we used to tell ourselves we aren't measuring up.

595
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: And maybe self care looks less like trying to live

596
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:50,400
Speaker 2: this perfectly balanced life where you're doing your skincare and

597
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,440
Speaker 2: you're exercising, and you're doing your gratitude journal every day

598
00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:57,000
Speaker 2: and all these different little things fit in every day,

599
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 2: and more like letting chapters of your life be what

600
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 2: they are, being less mean to yourself when your life

601
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 2: doesn't look how you're shown on the internet. That it's

602
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,239
Speaker 2: supposed to look. I get so exhausted by those tik

603
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: toks and reels that are like my morning routine and

604
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 2: they do like forty five things. It's just impossible. It's impossible.

605
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 2: And so I think that could be part of your

606
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:27,399
Speaker 2: self care, but it also could be knowing your life

607
00:36:27,440 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 2: doesn't have to look like that.

608
00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: The easiest kind of self care is just giving yourself

609
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,400
Speaker 1: more space to do the things you want to do

610
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: and giving yourself more time to just go slower. And

611
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 1: that's really what changed my perspective on it, was that

612
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:46,200
Speaker 1: it's not something that is like if someone is trying

613
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,239
Speaker 1: to sell you something and say this is going to

614
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: fix you, they are selling you a lie. A face

615
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 1: mask is not going to fix you. Some you know,

616
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,840
Speaker 1: new crazy diet is not going to completely rewire your mind.

617
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: Most likely a way of thinking isn't going to do

618
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 1: that either. What truly does change your life is slowing

619
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 1: down and being intentional about where things sit in your life,

620
00:37:13,760 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: giving yourself five extra minutes to get to a meeting

621
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: so you're not stressed, giving yourself the ability to order

622
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: take away every now and again because it makes your

623
00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: life easier For me, I think that self care is

624
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:31,320
Speaker 1: about a pursuit of ease and a pursuit of joy.

625
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: What systems can you put in place so that actually

626
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 1: you spend more time present in your life than worrying

627
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 1: about things from the past or things that are going

628
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: to happen. Like, it's about anchoring you in the present.

629
00:37:44,640 --> 00:37:47,000
Speaker 1: And you know what, it's taken me a very long

630
00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 1: time to learn that. Do you have any other tips

631
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:53,640
Speaker 1: for people, or perhaps even anxiety tips or mental health

632
00:37:53,680 --> 00:37:56,400
Speaker 1: tips that you think are underrated currently?

633
00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 2: Well, I think that we're in an extreme isolated time

634
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,399
Speaker 2: right now, and it's hard to overstate the importance of

635
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 2: other people in our well being, and it's easy to

636
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: forget that in a media landscape that's showing you a

637
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:17,920
Speaker 2: picture of self care or a good life where people

638
00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: are mostly alone, we're just not seeing much. I think

639
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:28,759
Speaker 2: community is really really important, and we've kind of lost that.

640
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 2: We're at least in the US, we're such an individualistic society,

641
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:39,640
Speaker 2: and it's very easy to when you're going through it,

642
00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: when you're really anxious, want to hide from the world

643
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,680
Speaker 2: until you're doing better. I feel that urge still, and

644
00:38:47,719 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: it's so hard to resist the urge to cancel plans

645
00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 2: because you're feeling anxious, you're feeling upset, you don't want

646
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 2: to see people, you're feeling bad about yourself. I think

647
00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 2: you should all be interrogating that impulse a little bit more.

648
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:06,040
Speaker 2: And I am among the ranks of people who need

649
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: to do that. But often we isolate ourselves thinking it

650
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: will help, when really spending time with people that we

651
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:21,880
Speaker 2: love would help a lot more. And I think that

652
00:39:22,400 --> 00:39:24,799
Speaker 2: the more connected we are to each other also the

653
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:26,919
Speaker 2: more we remember that it's okay to need each other,

654
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 2: it's okay to need things from each other, it's okay

655
00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:32,720
Speaker 2: to call someone when you need to talk to them.

656
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 2: I think connection is a big part of that. And

657
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,520
Speaker 2: it's a hard it's a hard time to be alive

658
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,280
Speaker 2: right now between you, just the state of the world,

659
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 2: and it's very very easy to isolate in response to it.

660
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 2: I think it's super important that we don't.

661
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: I on agree this whole episode is just maybeing just

662
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 1: nodding along in the background, being like, yes, yes, tattoo

663
00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: this on my body. This is my life philosophy for

664
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 1: people who don't have community, you know, and we're here

665
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: talking about connection, being like it is an antidote. It

666
00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: is medicinal. Community is essential. How do you think people

667
00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:16,439
Speaker 1: can go about building it? You know? For me, when

668
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: I first moved to Sydney, I didn't know anyone, and

669
00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: the way I did it was I just went to

670
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: the same places at the same time until people started

671
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: to be like, hey, I see you here. You know same.

672
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 1: I went to the same pilates classes on Tuesday and Thursday,

673
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: same time. I went to the same coffee shops, I

674
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,440
Speaker 1: went to the same book clubs. And I was consistent

675
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 1: with that, And that's how community was built around my routine.

676
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:44,319
Speaker 1: What would be your kind of like little tips for

677
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: maybe just even making some new friends.

678
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: I have so many because I struggled with this a lot.

679
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: So I moved to Houston for my legal job in

680
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,919
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, and the first three years when I worked

681
00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,240
Speaker 2: for my law firm, I was too busy to do anything.

682
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:02,279
Speaker 2: So when I left the law firm to work for

683
00:41:02,440 --> 00:41:06,880
Speaker 2: the cybersecurity company, I had zero friends in Houston, literally

684
00:41:06,920 --> 00:41:09,280
Speaker 2: not a single friend, and I had lived in Houston

685
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 2: for three years, and so I went on this very

686
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 2: intentional process of making friends.

687
00:41:15,640 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: For me.

688
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: The things that worked, I think using the internet does help.

689
00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:23,080
Speaker 2: So if there's someone that say, you went to high

690
00:41:23,120 --> 00:41:26,680
Speaker 2: school with them, or your family friends with them, and

691
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,720
Speaker 2: it looks like you might have a lot in common,

692
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,360
Speaker 2: you're connected on the internet, Trying to build a banter

693
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 2: with someone on the internet is helpful, even just like

694
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 2: responding to their stories with little enthusiastic things and then

695
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,640
Speaker 2: throwing in a hey, I notice we're both in this town.

696
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:46,239
Speaker 2: I'd love to hang out. Like I find when you

697
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:49,920
Speaker 2: act familiar with people, they start acting familiar with you.

698
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:54,439
Speaker 2: And that applies in person too. So if you say

699
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 2: you go to a yoga class sitting you know, if

700
00:41:57,960 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 2: you're sitting next to someone asking them how do you

701
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,800
Speaker 2: taking this teacher's class before, or just small little questions

702
00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:08,320
Speaker 2: and then offering up a little bit about your experience.

703
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 2: I haven't taken it, I've heard it's hard, or just

704
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 2: some little thing you can offer that implies a sense

705
00:42:14,000 --> 00:42:17,879
Speaker 2: of familiarity. People really open up in response to that.

706
00:42:18,320 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 2: Compliments are a super easy way to talk to people.

707
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:23,640
Speaker 2: If you're in line at a coffee shop and there's

708
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,280
Speaker 2: someone that looks like they could be a friend of yours,

709
00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:30,319
Speaker 2: someone who looks like they're your age, whatever, giving them

710
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 2: a compliment about something that they're wearing is a really

711
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 2: easy way to start a conversation with someone. And then

712
00:42:37,640 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 2: I think that the process of growing a friendship, we

713
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:46,480
Speaker 2: are socialized to think that it should happen naturally. Like

714
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:51,040
Speaker 2: thinking about friendship compared to dating, we're very aware that

715
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:55,320
Speaker 2: with dating, there's the talking stage, we're going on dates,

716
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 2: We're having these intentional moments of connection, there's defining the relationship,

717
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 2: there's this very organized process of bonding and connection connecting.

718
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 2: We don't really have that with friendship, but it's still necessary.

719
00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: I think with new friends. New friendships are very vulnerable

720
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 2: to fizzling out. So if it's a friendship that seems

721
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 2: like it's a great prospect, you're excited about this person,

722
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 2: you do have to be pretty intentional about it. I

723
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: think that hanging out with new friends is stressful and

724
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:33,799
Speaker 2: anxiety inducing, especially if you have social anxiety. But I

725
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: would urge against canceling too much and that sort of thing, like,

726
00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: be mindful that if you do that, it could fizzle

727
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:45,879
Speaker 2: the friendship in the early stage. And of course take

728
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 2: care of yourself. Of course, do what you need to do.

729
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 2: But like anything else, if you want it, you have

730
00:43:52,440 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 2: to prioritize it. And I think that friendship is one

731
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,000
Speaker 2: of those things that we're kind of made to think

732
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 2: it just happens, but it doesn't. You do have to

733
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: really be intentional about it.

734
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 1: You have to work for it, and you have to

735
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 1: sometimes feel a little bit embarrassed.

736
00:44:09,680 --> 00:44:10,520
Speaker 2: M that's right.

737
00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,279
Speaker 1: Like you have to feel a little bit embarrassed about

738
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,839
Speaker 1: double texting someone, a little bit embarrassed about being like hey,

739
00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,359
Speaker 1: and you know instigating, but people love an instigator, yes,

740
00:44:21,360 --> 00:44:24,600
Speaker 1: they do. Your easiest way, easiest way to build community

741
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 1: is to be the center of that community. That's being

742
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 1: the one who instigates.

743
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 2: That's right, and be chalant about it, like, not notchalant.

744
00:44:31,760 --> 00:44:34,080
Speaker 2: I would like to be your friend. I the number

745
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 2: of times I've said that's said that I would like

746
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: to be your friend. Be clear, Be clear, because people

747
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,399
Speaker 2: don't know, and people want to feel affirmed, and it's

748
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,399
Speaker 2: such it's so much easier to connect when you lay

749
00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,800
Speaker 2: your cards on the table that that's what you're trying

750
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 2: to do.

751
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: My closest friends will tell you. One of my longest friends,

752
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,359
Speaker 1: I saw her last night and I see her all

753
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,240
Speaker 1: the time. We're very very close, known for about eight years,

754
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: and I remember we met because she was dating another

755
00:45:01,960 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: really good friend of mine who I'm still great friends with,

756
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: and I met her when they were dating and they're

757
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: no longer dating. But I said to her after the

758
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 1: first time we met, we're gonna be friends, Like I

759
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,120
Speaker 1: just need you to be prepared, like we're gonna be friends.

760
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 1: And I felt like a guy going on a first

761
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: date with someone and going I'm gonna marry you, or like,

762
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like it felt like that

763
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: just sends uncertainty. And I continue to say that to

764
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:28,160
Speaker 1: people because I'm like, I'm gonna speak this into existence.

765
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: I'm being the same way that people are, like be

766
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:33,919
Speaker 1: really clear of your intentions when you're dating, be clear

767
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: with your intentions when you're trying to make friends.

768
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: That's right and as and once they're your friend, it

769
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: continues to be important. And it feels weird, but we're

770
00:45:42,200 --> 00:45:47,279
Speaker 2: very These proclamations of love are very normalized in romantic relationships,

771
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,719
Speaker 2: but it's important to affirm your friends, like tell them,

772
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,400
Speaker 2: I'm so grateful to have you in my life. You

773
00:45:53,480 --> 00:45:56,719
Speaker 2: are so important to me. I see this value in you.

774
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 2: I'm grateful for you, like all of the ways that

775
00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: we know we have to connect in certain contexts like dating,

776
00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:06,400
Speaker 2: are also important in friendship.

777
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:10,400
Speaker 1: One hundred and million percent. I'll also say this final

778
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:13,200
Speaker 1: thing about community, because it's my Obviously you can see

779
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:16,759
Speaker 1: how fired up we've both become. I live in this

780
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,360
Speaker 1: gorgeous little neighborhood in Sydney, and it's like not a

781
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: fancy neighborhood. It's like not near the beach or anything.

782
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:24,080
Speaker 1: And a lot of the people who live around me

783
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 1: are older, so they are they've lived here for a

784
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: long long time, Like my neighbor across the road was

785
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: born in the house that he still lives in and

786
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 1: he's now eighty. And don't be afraid to be friends

787
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:38,879
Speaker 1: with people who don't meet who you think you're going

788
00:46:38,880 --> 00:46:42,520
Speaker 1: to be friends with. One of my closest friends right

789
00:46:42,560 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 1: now is this woman and she's in her fifties and

790
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: her name's Emma, and we do pottery together and I

791
00:46:48,280 --> 00:46:52,840
Speaker 1: see her every single week for three hours, which honestly

792
00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:54,560
Speaker 1: is probably more than I see a lot of my

793
00:46:54,560 --> 00:46:58,399
Speaker 1: other friends. And we've we've continuously agreed to do these

794
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,319
Speaker 1: courses together. And you know, I announced my book. She

795
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:04,680
Speaker 1: came to this like announcement party with all my twenty

796
00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 1: something friends, and she brought like me, she brought me

797
00:47:06,719 --> 00:47:09,359
Speaker 1: a hydranger and you know my neighbor across the road,

798
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: his name is Frank, and like we have drinks like

799
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,960
Speaker 1: out on the porch so that people will like come

800
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:19,799
Speaker 1: and talk to us. You have to be available, but

801
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 1: you also have to again get rid of any preconceived

802
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: attachment to the kind of friend or community that you want.

803
00:47:27,520 --> 00:47:31,719
Speaker 1: People of different ages, people of different genders, people of

804
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,879
Speaker 1: different like backgrounds, or even like who just never thought

805
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 1: you'd be friends with. Incredible, Like it's incredible.

806
00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:42,200
Speaker 2: That makes me so happy thinking of you making pottery

807
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:45,279
Speaker 2: for three hours a week. I couldn't agree more. I have.

808
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:48,759
Speaker 2: I have friends who are in their late forties, have

809
00:47:48,800 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 2: friends who are in their seventies. And those friendships are

810
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 2: also so interesting because you get a totally different perspective.

811
00:47:56,800 --> 00:47:59,359
Speaker 2: Not that people in their twenties and thirties are all

812
00:47:59,360 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: the same, certainly not. But it's so interesting to be

813
00:48:03,360 --> 00:48:06,600
Speaker 2: friends with people who are really different in age from

814
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:09,799
Speaker 2: you because they just grew up in a different time

815
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:13,239
Speaker 2: and they have really different stories and they can tell

816
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 2: you about how technology used to be. There's yeah, there's

817
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: I couldn't agree with that more, especially in a time

818
00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:24,680
Speaker 2: where we're increasingly like categorized into little boxes of people

819
00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: generationally and esthetically and just in all the ways. Like

820
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: it's so nice to push back on that.

821
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 1: It's beautiful and like, you know, the other thing, the

822
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,240
Speaker 1: other really good part about being friends with like older people,

823
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,160
Speaker 1: different people, like specifically older people. They're so generous. Like

824
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: my partner, I don't know if you know this is

825
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 1: also an attorney, and which is so funny, just another

826
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:52,240
Speaker 1: like weird serendipitous connection between us and my neighbor Frank.

827
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:54,640
Speaker 1: It was like just gave him all these like old

828
00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: design of suits that he had that he didn't need anymore.

829
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 1: And I was just like, that's so generous and that's

830
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:03,799
Speaker 1: so nice. And I don't know, you just people just

831
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:06,600
Speaker 1: surprise you. And you know, we're talking about this loving

832
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: universe is beautiful universe. Gosh, like those little moments where

833
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 1: someone just sees you and cares about you, even when

834
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter, you know, it's not necessarily going to

835
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:21,879
Speaker 1: help them. It's just like so wonderful. I have two

836
00:49:21,880 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 1: final questions for you. The first is I want your

837
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:28,240
Speaker 1: best advice that you have for people in their twenties,

838
00:49:28,280 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 1: and it doesn't have to be about what we talked

839
00:49:30,200 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: about now and then, I really want you to finish

840
00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: off the episode by reading maybe your favorite poem from

841
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,560
Speaker 1: the book. How would you feel about that?

842
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:40,959
Speaker 2: I would love to read a poem. Let me think

843
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: on my best advice for a moment here.

844
00:49:44,280 --> 00:49:46,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, we ask people this at the end of every

845
00:49:46,719 --> 00:49:50,840
Speaker 1: guest episode, because you know, I get to interview so

846
00:49:50,880 --> 00:49:53,399
Speaker 1: many cool people and no one's ever given the same

847
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: advice twice, which is like, so wonderful.

848
00:49:56,520 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 2: I have it. This is borrowed advice from my good

849
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:03,880
Speaker 2: friend Seanna Krueger. She's the host of the Leadership in

850
00:50:03,960 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 2: Yoga podcast. She's an amazingly wise human. She says something,

851
00:50:08,320 --> 00:50:15,040
Speaker 2: a lot your dreams are for people like you. I

852
00:50:15,160 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 2: have been thinking about that constantly this week as someone

853
00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: who was so miserable in my twenties. It's gonna make

854
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: me cry. I felt so detached from my passions and

855
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 2: I felt so sad, and I felt like I had

856
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 2: boxed myself into a life that I didn't want so early.

857
00:50:36,040 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: And it's truly always possible for you to move towards

858
00:50:46,120 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: like a more loving, beautiful, true life. And so if

859
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 2: there is a dream that you have, maybe it's a

860
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:57,919
Speaker 2: big dream. Maybe you want to burn your career down

861
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 2: and start over. Maybe you just want to find love.

862
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:05,399
Speaker 2: Maybe you want community and friendship and people who get you.

863
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,680
Speaker 2: Whatever your dream is, like, you have that dream because

864
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 2: on some level it's a fit for you, and it's

865
00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 2: aligned for you, and it's coming for you. So I

866
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 2: think I think that would be my best advice. Remember

867
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 2: that you are a match for what you want, So

868
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: don't stop hoping. Don't think that it's not meant for you.

869
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 2: It's meant for someone who's younger or older, or has

870
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 2: more money or whatever. It's meant for someone like you.

871
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 2: And life is long. My editor Lida says that, and

872
00:51:48,120 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 2: you have time. You have so much time if you're

873
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: in your twenties, even if you're not, you have so

874
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 2: much time. You have time to completely start over, You

875
00:51:58,800 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: have time to meet people. If you feel like there's

876
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 2: no one in your life who gets you, you just have

877
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,040
Speaker 2: time for anything that you want.

878
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: Again, I just absolutely totally agree with that sentiment. It's

879
00:52:10,920 --> 00:52:15,520
Speaker 1: something I wish I knew at eighteen, and again at

880
00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:19,440
Speaker 1: twenty two and twenty five, when I was just thinking

881
00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:22,200
Speaker 1: that I needed to do everything right now for my

882
00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: life to have purpose, not realizing that you can do

883
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: it all. You just can't do it all at once.

884
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,200
Speaker 1: So your favorite poem, because we've never done this on

885
00:52:30,200 --> 00:52:32,880
Speaker 1: the podcast before, We've never had a poet on this

886
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: is a special tree. Choose whichever one you want. Long short,

887
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:40,439
Speaker 1: I want the listeners to really get a snake peek

888
00:52:40,440 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 1: into this incredible collection.

889
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:46,399
Speaker 2: So the poem I think I'll read. I'm not sure

890
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,799
Speaker 2: if it's my favorite poem in the book. I do

891
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:51,839
Speaker 2: really like it, and I feel like it really goes

892
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:53,720
Speaker 2: hand in hand with a lot of what we've talked

893
00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:57,759
Speaker 2: about today about finding community. So it's called I Have

894
00:52:57,960 --> 00:53:02,359
Speaker 2: bad News and good News. I have bad news and

895
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 2: good news. If you aren't cool enough for them now,

896
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,480
Speaker 2: the eight hundred dollars coat won't help. You can move

897
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,960
Speaker 2: to a cooler part of town, they still won't want

898
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:19,000
Speaker 2: to come over. Waiting to reply until tomorrow won't make

899
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:23,120
Speaker 2: them text you back sooner. You can learn how to

900
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:27,759
Speaker 2: say can and Houston Street and as ie. They will

901
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 2: find other reasons to judge you. When you work hard

902
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 2: on your makeup for dinner. They'll ask why are you

903
00:53:35,200 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 2: so dressed up. If you aren't cool enough for them now,

904
00:53:39,640 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 2: you never will be. But there are people who aren't

905
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: daunted by the commute to your place, don't care how

906
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 2: much your coat costs, won't bump you behind them when

907
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:56,280
Speaker 2: the street is too narrow for three. Think you're beautiful

908
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:59,480
Speaker 2: when you're dressed to the nines, and when you're dressed

909
00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 2: to the one won't be scared away by your dark past,

910
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:08,360
Speaker 2: or your bad temper or your worst mistakes, let alone

911
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: by three messages in a row. When you find the

912
00:54:12,080 --> 00:54:16,399
Speaker 2: right people, and you will find them, you can have

913
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:19,360
Speaker 2: nothing and it will be plenty.

914
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: Oh that poem is really really beautiful. Oh talk the

915
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: dog that I was talking to her. That poem is

916
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:31,719
Speaker 1: like the perfect end to this episode because I think

917
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: it fully encapsulates everything we talked about. Doing things for

918
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 1: you knowing that people who love you will find you

919
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:41,840
Speaker 1: for what you're giving out. That's real and authentic. So

920
00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing. Where can people read more,

921
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:50,600
Speaker 1: hear more, absorb more of your work.

922
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: This was such a delight. It has been so much

923
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 2: fun to talk to you. I feel like we could

924
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:01,440
Speaker 2: talk forever. You can find me on Instagram and TikTok

925
00:55:01,520 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 2: at The Daily Victorian. Make Believe I think should be

926
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:09,440
Speaker 2: out by the time this podcast comes out. It is

927
00:55:09,560 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: out March eighteenth. It's available pretty much anywhere you get books,

928
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: and you can also find me on my podcast Soulgum.

929
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 2: It's new on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And thank you

930
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 2: Jimma so much for having me and for making Psychology

931
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:29,879
Speaker 2: of your twenties. I really can't tell you how much

932
00:55:29,960 --> 00:55:32,319
Speaker 2: it's meant to me over the years, and I know

933
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 2: that your listeners are just so grateful for all of

934
00:55:36,480 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 2: the wisdom and vulnerability that you share a.

935
00:55:40,160 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 1: Lot of love in this episode. Thank you so much

936
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 1: again for coming on, and I will leave all of

937
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 1: Victoria's links Dambler. I highly highly recommend you buy this

938
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 1: collection of poetry if you're trying to get back into

939
00:55:52,320 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 1: reading as well. I always say poetry great way to

940
00:55:54,920 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: do it, specifically this collection, and as always, my lovely listeners.

941
00:55:59,400 --> 00:56:03,760
Speaker 1: If you have questions comments further, I don't know queries

942
00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 1: about this episode or anything you heard today, you can

943
00:56:06,120 --> 00:56:09,400
Speaker 1: always reach out to me on Instagram at that Psychology podcast.

944
00:56:09,440 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: I would love to hear from you. Make sure you

945
00:56:11,560 --> 00:56:13,799
Speaker 1: leave a five star review and you're following along for

946
00:56:13,880 --> 00:56:16,960
Speaker 1: future episodes, We've got some good ones coming out soon,

947
00:56:17,520 --> 00:56:21,280
Speaker 1: and as always, stay safe, be kind, be gentle to yourself,

948
00:56:21,640 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: and we will talk very very soon