WEBVTT - How to Use Tribalism to Create Positive Change 0:00:02.520 --> 0:00:06.840 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:07.240 --> 0:00:11.120 This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.640 Stenebeck on Bloomberg Radio. Okay, Carol, you know, I was 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.759 out in Colorado. I was biking last month with my dad. 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.640 I went all over the state. I saw in some 0:00:20.760 --> 0:00:24.560 situations neighbors dueling with each other when it came to 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.160 political signs across the street, next door, neighbors literally calling 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:30.720 each other out depending on where I was. A few times. 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:32.680 It was kind of funny out there, but it reminded 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:34.519 me of the deep divide that we see in the 0:00:34.520 --> 0:00:37.560 American political landscape. Not that I need to be reminded 0:00:37.560 --> 0:00:39.440 of it, because out there in the media, it's there 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:42.320 each and every day. It's not just our imaginations though. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.360 A report from the Pew Research Center this summer said, quote, 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.360 Republicans and Democrats are more divided along ideological lines and 0:00:49.440 --> 0:00:53.320 partis antipathy is deeper and more extensive than at any 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:55.560 point in the last two decades. 0:00:55.640 --> 0:00:57.640 Well, we feel it, right. We talk about it constantly. 0:00:57.680 --> 0:01:00.920 This division that we're seeing, whether it's a party, lines 0:01:01.080 --> 0:01:02.040 are elsewhere. 0:01:02.160 --> 0:01:05.560 Oftentimes folks out there use division and the word tribes 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:07.959 to sort of describe division. It's often looked at in 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.639 a pejorative way, just another thing that kind of pushes 0:01:10.720 --> 0:01:13.600 us apart, and it makes us separate from one another. Yet, 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.319 Michael Morris argues in a new book that perhaps, rather paradoxically, 0:01:18.440 --> 0:01:21.360 what keeps us apart can actually bring us closer together. 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:22.880 Kind of love that idea. 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.160 Michael Morris is Professor of Leadership at Columbia Business School. 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.399 His new book is out today, Tribal How the cultural 0:01:28.400 --> 0:01:30.760 instincts that divide us can help bring us together. He 0:01:30.880 --> 0:01:31.960 joins us from New York. 0:01:32.000 --> 0:01:33.760 Michael, so great to have you here with us, so 0:01:33.920 --> 0:01:37.040 relevant in terms of here we are in an election year. 0:01:37.120 --> 0:01:39.479 So talk to us a little bit about first of all, 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:44.520 that this just kind of general concept of what divides 0:01:44.600 --> 0:01:47.000 us can bring us together. Why did you think we 0:01:47.040 --> 0:01:49.320 needed you needed to write this book and bring it 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:50.240 bring it to people. 0:01:52.440 --> 0:01:54.720 Well, thank you for having me. This is a book 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:57.840 that I've been working on for almost ten years. I'm 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:01.200 a behavioral scientist, you know, a re search psychologist, and 0:02:01.280 --> 0:02:05.560 my specialty is cultural psychology, which is the study of 0:02:05.600 --> 0:02:08.640 the cultural frames in our heads that guide our thinking, 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:13.680 guide our actions and decisions, and what activates them and 0:02:13.720 --> 0:02:19.239 how they change. And I've been teaching at top business 0:02:19.280 --> 0:02:23.240 schools for decades at Columbia Business School, formerly at Stanford 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:27.639 Business School, So I've developed a toolkit for thinking about 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:33.920 how to use the cultural forces that shape people's thinking 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:39.600 to create unity in a group, or to create change 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.480 in a society or in an organization. And that's the 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:46.720 reason that I started writing this book sort of to 0:02:47.400 --> 0:02:53.880 create a playbook for activists, leaders, managers, high school teachers, coaches, 0:02:54.200 --> 0:03:02.000 anybody who has to orchestrate a group into a productive direction. 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.360 Well, and what's interesting is you hear the word tribe 0:03:04.440 --> 0:03:06.760 or tribalism, and you might get a little i don't know, 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:09.880 maybe put off a little bit or think one way. 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.040 But you say, when we think of tribes, it's countries, 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:15.960 it's churches, it's political parties, it's companies, it could be families, 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:19.399 right like, it's it's you know, groups that we deal 0:03:19.440 --> 0:03:20.400 with all the time. 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:26.680 Yeah, tribes, you know, from a from an evolutionary standpoint 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.520 or from a you know, classic anthropology standpoint, it just 0:03:30.600 --> 0:03:36.320 refers to the distinctively human form of social organization, which 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:40.920 is large communities that are united by shared culture as 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:44.880 opposed to being united by blood relations or being united 0:03:44.960 --> 0:03:49.280 by you know, diadic bonds between people. And that's you know, 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.360 that's how we differ from other primates. We can you 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:55.360 could never have a Chimpanzee Manhattan. You know, once, once 0:03:55.400 --> 0:03:58.360 they get more than fifty individuals in a group, it 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.120 starts to break apart because they depend on either being 0:04:02.160 --> 0:04:06.800 related or having a direct personal bond of trust. We 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:10.320 can trust total strangers because we share culture with them, 0:04:10.400 --> 0:04:14.480 so we can understand them, and we can predict their movements, 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:16.200 and we can predict what they will do, so we 0:04:16.240 --> 0:04:20.920 can trust them. So, yeah, tribalism is mostly a good thing. 0:04:21.000 --> 0:04:23.120 It's what made us human, It's what got us where 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:26.440 we are now. I think what's really interesting is, you know, 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:30.880 over the past ten years while I've been writing this book, 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.599 there's been kind of a trope of toxic tribalism that 0:04:35.640 --> 0:04:38.640 has emerged among the pundit class and has been picked 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:42.320 up by politicians and business leaders. And the idea is 0:04:42.360 --> 0:04:47.840 that somehow, a deeply evolved drive to hate each other 0:04:48.360 --> 0:04:53.400 has somehow reawakened, and now we're screwed because we don't 0:04:53.440 --> 0:04:55.120 talk to each other anymore. And there's no way to 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.280 get the genie back into the bottle anymore. And this 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:02.680 makes for colorful articles, and maybe it makes for you know, 0:05:02.760 --> 0:05:08.440 riveting speeches, but it's a kind of despairing, fatalistic take 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.279 on the conflicts of our time. I don't think it's 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:14.000 a helpful way to think, and I don't think it's 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.839 an accurate way to think. It's not a way of 0:05:17.360 --> 0:05:21.680 talking about tribal instincts that any evolutionary scholar or any 0:05:21.720 --> 0:05:26.280 behavioral scientists would recognize. So I think we've kind of 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:31.080 talked ourselves into this take on tribalism that's not scientifically 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:32.800 founded and not helpful. 0:05:32.960 --> 0:05:35.280 Would you dispute the idea in the book. 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:39.400 Is to try to debunk that way of thinking about tribalism. 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:42.760 Well, professor Morris, would you? Would you dispute the idea 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.719 that we're more divided now, like the Pew research says, 0:05:45.839 --> 0:05:48.279 than we are at least politically, and then we have 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.480 been in previous decades, for the last twenty years. Does 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.800 that seem miss like it's not necessarily accurate to you. 0:05:57.440 --> 0:06:00.400 Well, you know, perhaps in the last twenty years, but 0:06:00.920 --> 0:06:03.679 certainly not the claim that I hear more often, which 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:07.359 is that the American people have never been this divided. 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:11.080 You know, if you if you read history. In eighteen 0:06:11.200 --> 0:06:14.320 sixty Abraham Lincoln became president, he had less than forty 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.839 percent of the popular vote. Seven states seceded before he 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:20.800 was even inaugurated. The Civil War breaks out. A few 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:27.080 weeks afterwards, four more states secede. Now that's that's a crisis. 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:31.000 That's that's a legitimacy crisis for a president, and that's 0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:34.719 a that's a big rift to heal. But Lincoln was 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.720 one of the leaders, and there are many throughout history 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.640 political and business leaders who they had faith that the 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:46.400 best way to heal a divide was tribal memory. It 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:49.479 was it was appealing to our common ancestors, appealing to 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:53.839 our common past. You know, Lincoln had that famous, mysterious 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:59.760 line in his first inauguration that the mystic cords of 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:03.760 men shall yet swell the chorus of the Union. You 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:07.279 know what was he talking about. Well, he he thought 0:07:07.279 --> 0:07:10.400 of himself as a storyteller in chief, and he made 0:07:10.440 --> 0:07:14.640 all of these wonderful speeches like the Gettysburg Address that 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.000 you know, made reference to the sacrifices of our common 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:22.360 ancestors and the common ideals that you know, even people 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:27.040 in the South were moved by that speech. One holiday 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.080 we have coming up as Thanksgiving, and we we often 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:34.440 associate Thanksgiving with the Pilgrims, but it was really Abraham 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:39.120 Lincoln who started Thanksgiving as a national holiday. And he 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:41.880 did it because he thought that we need we needed 0:07:42.320 --> 0:07:49.080 a national ritual of gratitude and memory. Uh and that 0:07:49.200 --> 0:07:54.200 and that, more than anything else, could bring people together. So, 0:07:54.400 --> 0:07:58.480 you know, we may think of nostalgia and sentimentality about 0:07:58.480 --> 0:08:01.960 the past as a you know, as a silly, irrational 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:05.600 way of thinking, but it's a deep part of our 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:09.600 tribal wiring and one that can be used for inclusiveness, 0:08:09.640 --> 0:08:13.520 not just for divisiveness. You know, we see, you know, 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:18.160 we see a brand of populist politics nowadays where the 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:20.920 story is, you know, things used to be great, but 0:08:21.040 --> 0:08:24.040 now we have all these immigrants and things are going 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:29.160 to hell. Well that's a divisive form of populism. But 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:34.280 there have been many leaders who practiced inclusive forms of populism. 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:37.439 And I think, you know, we need to we need 0:08:37.440 --> 0:08:40.640 to understand tribalism and understand all the ways that we 0:08:40.679 --> 0:08:42.319 can use it at a time like this. 0:08:43.200 --> 0:08:44.800 Well, when we come back. We want to continue. We 0:08:44.840 --> 0:08:45.960 have to do a little bit of news, but we 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.559 want to come back with you, Professor Morris, and continue 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.720 this conversation. And because you've also advised political campaigns that 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.440 we know, whether it was Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton 0:08:55.480 --> 0:08:57.200 and Joe Biden, we wanted to do a little bit 0:08:57.240 --> 0:08:59.760 more deeper into politics, but also maybe tools that we 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.079 can all use so that when we have kind of 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:06.720 the division aspect of our society out there, maybe how 0:09:06.760 --> 0:09:08.679 we can get to a better, better place that actually 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.000 brings us together, what we can all do to get 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:11.760 to that point. 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.000 Also full disclosure. Professor Morris was my professor at business 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.000 school as I was doing research and saw his name 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:21.160 for this segment. Oh yeah, my first class in business school. 0:09:21.360 --> 0:09:24.520 We're gonna Professor Morris. It's an intensive sort of social 0:09:24.520 --> 0:09:26.559 psychology class that you take what for two and a 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:27.559 half weeks? Is that right? 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.000 Professor? We can go in your files and check out 0:09:30.040 --> 0:09:30.760 what grade Tim goes. 0:09:31.000 --> 0:09:34.120 We can like grade non disclosure is a great thing 0:09:34.160 --> 0:09:35.080 about business school. 0:09:35.800 --> 0:09:39.240 Professor Morris, Michael Morris, Professor of Leadership at Columbia Business School. 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:39.800 We're gonna come back. 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:42.720 We're talking about his book Tribal, How the Cultural Instincts 0:09:42.720 --> 0:09:44.560 that divide Us Can Help bring Us together? More to 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:49.439 come on the other side, Carol Master along with Tim Stenowick. 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:51.599 As we mentioned, we're talking with Michael Morris, Professor of 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:54.200 Leadership at the Columbia Business School. We're talking about his 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:57.960 new book, Tribal, How the Cultural Instincts that divide Us 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.160 Can Help Bring Us Together? And at the beginning of 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:03.000 the book, he notes that he has advised political campaigns 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:07.200 about cultural about culture relevant policies and messaging, and that 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:10.559 include the presidential campaigns of Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, also 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:14.720 Joe Biden, which made us want to ask him about 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:17.560 kind of that political environment. We've talked about politics already 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:21.160 a little bit, but I do wonder, I don't know, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:27.000 do campaigns want to hear about culture relevant policies With 0:10:27.040 --> 0:10:29.679 everything that's going on, how do they think about messaging 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.560 and getting to people who in a world where it's 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.600 like you're either in one camp or the other and 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.840 you don't necessarily want to hear about the other camp. 0:10:40.520 --> 0:10:42.760 Well, I think you know, we're in for a treat 0:10:42.880 --> 0:10:48.240 tonight in this debate between two you know, very articulate, 0:10:48.320 --> 0:10:53.560 talented communicators, and I happen to be part of a 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.000 team advising one of the one of the sides of 0:10:56.040 --> 0:11:00.760 the of the debate, and I think that there are 0:11:01.080 --> 0:11:07.679 there are really important issues related to tribal identities that 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:11.480 that the sides have to work on. For example, Kamala 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.880 Harris is a person who has multiple social identities, and 0:11:16.120 --> 0:11:19.480 she's been sort of lambasted by Trump. I don't think 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.320 very effectively for claiming to be you know, both African 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:30.200 American and South Asian American. And I think that what 0:11:30.400 --> 0:11:34.360 she has to do and has to do well is 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:38.800 is code switching of you know, showing an African American 0:11:38.800 --> 0:11:41.480 audience that she understands them and that they can trust her, 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.200 and showing a legal audience that she's as tough a 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:50.960 prosecutors as any, and showing you know, other other audiences 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:53.400 that she connects with them. You know, she has a 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:57.320 Jewish husband, she was raised by Indian American mother, So 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:01.320 she's a person who can have a legitimate, authentic connection 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:06.199 with a really broad swath of the society. Now, Tim 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.880 Walls is a perfect compliment to her. I've heard him 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:12.800 described as an RII candidate. You know, he's he's the 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:15.679 only candidate who looks like he's actually been camping in 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.680 his life. You know that you could you could go 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:20.120 fishing with him and he would know, you know how 0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.480 to bit a hook. And I think he, you know, 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.480 he needs to leverage that. He needs to show people 0:12:27.520 --> 0:12:29.560 that he knows how to fix a car. He knows 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:32.679 how he could help you, you know, jump your your 0:12:32.720 --> 0:12:36.480 battery on a cold winter night. He's that kind of guy, 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:39.880 and there are relatively few of them in the elite 0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.200 levels of politics, and I think he has to show 0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:46.160 that to us. One of the things that's not talked 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.439 about so much is that there's a huge gender discrepancy 0:12:49.520 --> 0:12:54.360 in support for the two sides. Young men are twelve 0:12:54.480 --> 0:13:00.040 percent less likely to support Harris Walls than women, and 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:04.560 among young men it's even even sharper, and it could 0:13:04.600 --> 0:13:06.800 really make a difference in some of the swing states 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:11.000 like Arizona. So I think I think Tim has to, 0:13:12.559 --> 0:13:16.760 you know, he has to step up and show show 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.640 that he's coach Walls and he can be kind of 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:25.679 a man's man tonight in the way that sorry. 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:28.319 No, this is fascinating. I guess I want to ask 0:13:28.360 --> 0:13:30.800 you about what's going on in our culture where so 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:36.080 many younger white men are pretty angry and feel left behind. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:44.000 What's happened, Well, they used to have a not automatic, 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:49.560 but a relatively easy path to success in social standing 0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:53.480 because they were from the favored group, the group that 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.439 was sort of the prototype of who should have positions 0:13:56.440 --> 0:14:01.160 of power and responsibility and affluence. And that is declining. 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:04.959 It's certainly not over, but it's it's it's diminishing, and 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:09.079 so they feel like people are cutting ahead in line, 0:14:09.160 --> 0:14:11.600 you know, people are taking the places that should be theirs. 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.400 And you know, it's not completely new. I mean, there's 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:20.640 been resentments about affirmative action for decades, but I think 0:14:20.760 --> 0:14:25.080 now it's not just affirmative action. It's it's that we've 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:30.080 had waves of very talented immigrants coming into the country, 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:33.840 you know, for the past twenty years, and that means 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:38.760 that a lot of our you know, native born white 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.760 male good old boys are not you know, are not 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:46.280 getting those promotions. You know, it's it's it's Russians and 0:14:46.640 --> 0:14:51.840 you know, Brazilians and you know Nigerians who are getting 0:14:51.880 --> 0:14:55.960 those promotions. Uh and and not necessarily because of any 0:14:56.000 --> 0:14:59.920 dee E policies, just because we have so many talented 0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:01.960 people from all around the world who've arrived. 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:04.520 Have you seen anecdotally have you seen anecdotally that show 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:06.440 up in your business school classes in the decades that 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:08.240 you've been teaching, have they become more diverse? 0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:14.880 Very much so. The MBA population compared to when you 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:21.720 were in it has changed dramatically. And you know, I 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:26.480 had a class last spring, a class of fifty people, 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.080 and I had seven Nigerian students, you know, some of 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.160 them Nigerian Americans, but they were all, you know, students 0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:36.200 who were Nigerian, you know, by identity, and that's you know, 0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:38.440 Nigeria is one of the most populous countries in the world. 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.520 So we shouldn't be surprised. But it wasn't the case 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:43.480 when you were in the business school classroom. We weren't 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.920 We weren't recruiting from Africa and the African diaspora in 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:51.320 the same way. It's good for the world that we are. 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:55.120 Listen, we've just got about Professor Morris about a minute left, 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:59.960 your advice to folks who where we see so much division, 0:16:00.480 --> 0:16:03.080 but you say in your book it can bring us together. 0:16:04.000 --> 0:16:05.920 What are tools we can do? Piece of advice. Again, 0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:07.160 we've only got about a minute left. 0:16:09.440 --> 0:16:12.480 Well, what we need to do is understand what tribal 0:16:12.520 --> 0:16:15.160 psychology really is. And there are three parts to it, 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.960 what I call the peer instinct, the hero instinct, and 0:16:19.000 --> 0:16:22.240 the ancestor instinct. The idea that we were driven to 0:16:22.360 --> 0:16:25.840 kind of imitate our peer group. We're driven to emulate 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.120 our heroes, and we're driven to perpetuate the ways of 0:16:29.160 --> 0:16:33.080 our ancestors and maintain traditions, and all of those things 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:36.400 can be positive forces for unity. And what we need 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:41.280 to do is understand the levers for invoking these forces. 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:46.280 They're inside every person, but there are triggers that bring 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:49.680 them to the four that are invisible to us because 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:54.120 they operate unconsciously. And so I've tried to explain what 0:16:54.160 --> 0:16:57.200 we've learned from lots of research about what those triggers 0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:01.280 are that a teacher or a manager or a politician 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:05.199 can use. And then over the longer term, cultures are 0:17:05.240 --> 0:17:08.760 malleable and we have to understand what are the signals 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:13.120 that we can send to help evolve the culture. Culture 0:17:13.200 --> 0:17:15.560 is not a fixed thing that we're stuck with. It's 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:17.480 something that we can mold good. 0:17:17.600 --> 0:17:20.160 That's a great way to wrap it up. Michael Morris, 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.800 Thank you so much of Columbia Business School. His new 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:25.960 book out today, Tribal, How the cultural instincts that divide 0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:28.480 us can help bring us together. You're listening and watching 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:29.720 Bloomberg Business Week.