1 00:00:01,280 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: Hail to you, Hoppy sprung from Earth, come to nourish 2 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:10,240 Speaker 1: Egypt of secret ways, a darkness by day, to whom 3 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: his followers sing, who floods the fields that ray has 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: made to nourish all who thirst. Let's drink the waterless 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:27,600 Speaker 1: desert his due descending from the sky. Welcome to Stuff 6 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:36,840 Speaker 1: to blow your mind, production of My Heart Radio. Hey, 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:38,839 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to blow your mind. My name is 8 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And today we're going 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: to be talking about inundation. That's right. And we we 10 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:52,599 Speaker 1: opened there with a reading from the translation from m 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:56,920 Speaker 1: Lithium in ancient Egyptian literature, a book of Readings, Volume one, 12 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: the Old and Middle Kingdoms, um. And this is referring 13 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: to a particular deity who is associated with, but not 14 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:10,240 Speaker 1: the sole representation or embodiment of the inundation, the annual 15 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 1: flooding of the Nile. Right, So this would be the 16 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:17,039 Speaker 1: god we've been saying, Hoppy. He He is a god 17 00:01:17,080 --> 00:01:20,160 Speaker 1: whose name in English is usually spelled h A p 18 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,320 Speaker 1: y uh. And I have not I searched in vain 19 00:01:24,440 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: to find a correct pronunciation for this name and could not. 20 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:30,720 Speaker 1: But I think it's Hoppy, yeah, And I think also 21 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:33,960 Speaker 1: Hoppy sounds a little less like happy, Like I have 22 00:01:34,120 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: an inclination to not want to call a god by 23 00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: the name Happy, But at the same time, as we'll 24 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 1: discuss the later on, like, this is ultimately a very 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: joyful deity. Everybody loves Hoppy. Hoppy is happy, so it 26 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 1: wouldn't be the worst faux pap. Now, one thing I 27 00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: like about Hoppy is that Happy is the god that 28 00:01:55,400 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 1: embodies not not just a physical geo fact, not just 29 00:01:59,400 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: an object in the world, but a process within a 30 00:02:03,480 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: geo fact. So Hoppy is not the god of the Nile, 31 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: but the god of the seasonal cyclical flooding of the Nile, 32 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: right or or you can even get more specific in 33 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: saying that he is he is one of various gods 34 00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 1: that is tied up with the inundation. Uh So, depending 35 00:02:22,840 --> 00:02:26,320 Speaker 1: on like what aspects of the inundation you're focusing on, uh, 36 00:02:26,480 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: be it positive or negative, or the origins, etcetera, there 37 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:33,240 Speaker 1: are different deities that can come into play, and it's 38 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: it's super fascinating to break it down because ultimately you're 39 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: talking about something that that that was so central to 40 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,880 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian life and therefore became so central to their 41 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: their worldview and cosmology. It makes sense that you would 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:49,960 Speaker 1: have a cast of deities as opposed to a single deity. 43 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: Summing it up, now, Rob, did you end up thinking 44 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: about doing an episode on the Inundation of the Nile 45 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: because of that earlier episode we did this year on 46 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: the Tempest Steela Um? I think it was every time 47 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:07,519 Speaker 1: we've touched on something that involves ancient Egypt, I've been 48 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: reminded that this is a great episode idea, or at 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:12,280 Speaker 1: least I don't know it's a great episode day, but 50 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 1: one I was interested in covering UM just because I 51 00:03:15,400 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: was I was reading a book that I'm going to 52 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,920 Speaker 1: reference here in a bit. UH pick this up around Christmas. 53 00:03:20,000 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: I think Egyptian Mythology, A Guide to God's Goddesses and 54 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: Traditions of Ancient Egypt by Geraldine pinch Um and Uh, 55 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,080 Speaker 1: part of it is encyclopedic encyclopedic. Part of it is 56 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: more just an overview of Egyptian mythology and UM and 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 1: Egyptian history at least as as much as is necessary 58 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: to understand the mythology and UM. And this author went 59 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,119 Speaker 1: into this affair amount And Um, I just hadn't thought 60 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 1: about it, uh in these terms before, or certainly in 61 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: this much detail. And I thought this would be a 62 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: fascinating topic to look at because not only is it 63 00:03:53,760 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 1: a chance to sort of geek out on Egyptian mythology 64 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: and talk about, you know, ancient civilization, but also I 65 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:04,360 Speaker 1: feel like a trend that that we've found on the 66 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: show before is any time we take a particular mythology 67 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: and analyze it and try and break it down like, 68 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 1: it helps us understand other mythologies more and it it 69 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,279 Speaker 1: helps us understand sort of the whole human exercise itself 70 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: a little better. And in this case, I think we 71 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 1: end up getting into some very interesting scientific territory as well. Yeah. Absolutely, 72 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: um And and they're they're actually actually future episodes of 73 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:30,719 Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind. We can do that kind 74 00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: of um launch off of some of the broader themes 75 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: that we end up exploring a little bit in this episode. 76 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,559 Speaker 1: So we are going to be talking a bit about 77 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,560 Speaker 1: mythology here at the top of the episode. And as 78 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:46,039 Speaker 1: we've discussed before in the show, there are numerous angles 79 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: from which to approach a given cultures mythology. There are 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,400 Speaker 1: tales and traditions that emerges a way of explaining the 81 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:56,080 Speaker 1: physical world, to explain the origins or the end of things, 82 00:04:56,160 --> 00:04:59,159 Speaker 1: to tackle questions about life and death, and to ponder 83 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,280 Speaker 1: a great many contemplations of objective and subjective reality. Uh. 84 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: They can provide a framework by which to interpret our lives, 85 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: give our lives meaning or to say, empower rulers, and 86 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: even to provide creative outlets and and provide entertainment. So 87 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,039 Speaker 1: we don't want to leave anyone with the idea that 88 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,680 Speaker 1: there's just one way to interpret a myth and cosmology, 89 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: one way to to dissect it, one way to skin 90 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,200 Speaker 1: the cat as if you will. Nor do we want 91 00:05:23,240 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 1: to limit the capacity for creativity and complex thought in 92 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:30,280 Speaker 1: ancient people. But without a doubt in environment and place 93 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 1: are one of the factors that influence the creation of 94 00:05:32,720 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 1: a mythology. Because of course, mountain gods don't emerge simply 95 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: because the mountains exist. No, there has to be a 96 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: connection of experience. Uh. And and this, uh, this made 97 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: me pick up a book I hadn't looked at in 98 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: a while. I think I picked this up in college 99 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:51,480 Speaker 1: um by Jonathan Z. Smith, titled to Take Place and 100 00:05:51,600 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: in it. Uh. Smith quotes Alan Gussoh, an environmental artist, 101 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 1: who said, quote, the catalyst that converts any physical location, 102 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,040 Speaker 1: any environment, if you will, into a place, is the 103 00:06:04,080 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: process of experiencing deeply. A place is a piece of 104 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: the whole environment that has been claimed by feelings. Oh yeah, 105 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: I think that is so true. The world is full 106 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:16,000 Speaker 1: of natural environments. But within those natural environments are places. 107 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,599 Speaker 1: And what makes a place a place is the is 108 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:23,760 Speaker 1: the part of the environment that you remember and talk about. Yeah. So, 109 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:25,760 Speaker 1: so on one level, you can go very specific with this. 110 00:06:25,839 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: For instance, Smith's book deals primarily with ritual in relation 111 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:33,120 Speaker 1: to place, in particular constructed ritual environments. But you can 112 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:35,280 Speaker 1: also you can pull out I think, and you can 113 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: look at at the bigger picture, and you can look 114 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 1: at something you know, like a great river, uh, large 115 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,920 Speaker 1: bodies of water, mountains, etcetera. And you know these, you know, 116 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: the mythology is full of of this relationship between humans 117 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,080 Speaker 1: and there and then then their environments. You know, how 118 00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: how we feel about it, how we interact with it, 119 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: for sure, but then how we feel about it, what 120 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: hopes are tied up in it, what fears are tied 121 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 1: up in it? The order of the chaos and UH 122 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:05,000 Speaker 1: and so a lot of that is very visible, uh 123 00:07:05,000 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: in is going to be very visible in our discussion 124 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: about the Nile. So to kick things off, let's just 125 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,320 Speaker 1: remind everybody a bit about Egypt and the Nile. Uh. So, Egypt, 126 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: the Egypt you know from a modern map, is located 127 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: in the northeastern corner of Africa, but it's technically a 128 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: transcontinental country because it is it's uh. It also includes 129 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,040 Speaker 1: a very southwestern corner of Asia that's connected by a 130 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: land bridge formed by the Sinai Peninsula. There's a very 131 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: long history of human civilization here. Rock carvings date back 132 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,480 Speaker 1: to roughly ten thousand b C, though the pre Dynastic period, 133 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: generally the earliest Egyptian period discussed by historians, stretches from 134 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: fifty five hundred to thirty two hundred BC. Now for starters, 135 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,400 Speaker 1: as as we did, we definitely mentioned in the Tempest 136 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,120 Speaker 1: Stela episode UH that also dealt with with ancient Egypt. 137 00:07:56,400 --> 00:07:59,680 Speaker 1: The northern portion of Egypt closest to the Mediterranean was 138 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: thought of as Lower Egypt, while Upper Egypt is the 139 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: region that is to the south. Furthermore, we know the 140 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,400 Speaker 1: world of the known world was much smaller to the 141 00:08:09,400 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians. The full extent and size of Africa was unknown, 142 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,880 Speaker 1: and as Geraldine Pinch points out in her book, the 143 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:19,840 Speaker 1: known world for the ancient Egyptians in the third millennium 144 00:08:19,960 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: extended roughly from modern Greece and Turkey in the north 145 00:08:23,640 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 1: to Ethiopia and the south, and from Libya or what 146 00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: is modern day Libya in the west to what is 147 00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,720 Speaker 1: currently Iraq in the east. Now, the defining characteristic of 148 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,160 Speaker 1: Egypt is, of course, the Mighty Nile River, which cuts 149 00:08:38,200 --> 00:08:41,200 Speaker 1: through its center and empties through the Nile Delta into 150 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean Sea. The Nile itself, flowing north out of 151 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 1: its flows north out of its two primary tributaries, the 152 00:08:48,800 --> 00:08:51,880 Speaker 1: Blue Nile and the White Nile. The Blue Nile stems 153 00:08:51,960 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: from Lake Tana and modern day Ethiopia, and the White 154 00:08:55,440 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: Nile stems from Lake Victoria further south on the borders 155 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 1: of Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania. It's worth noting that Egypt 156 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: itself gets extremely little rain. Some of some of the 157 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: northern areas. I was reading a little bit of rain 158 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: every year, like maybe a few millimeters, but most of 159 00:09:13,600 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: the country gets basically no rain at all on average, 160 00:09:17,960 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: And uh that that's pretty interesting to consider, like being 161 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: completely tied to a river or tributaries of that river 162 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: for your only sources of water. There there is almost 163 00:09:29,440 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: you can almost count on the fact that no rain 164 00:09:32,040 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: is going to be coming down out of the sky. 165 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:37,320 Speaker 1: It's just the river or bust. But it's also interesting 166 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:40,240 Speaker 1: that while it has been that way for thousands of years, 167 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: it was not always that way. That's right, if you 168 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,520 Speaker 1: go back to the the the truly ancient path, like 169 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: basically prehistoric egypt Um, you go back, you go back 170 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: to this period of time, and you know, for thousands 171 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: of years, northern Egypt and northern Africa in general had 172 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: a wetter climate, grasslands and animal population stretched across areas 173 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: that are now just complete desert and the the life 174 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:10,679 Speaker 1: that you would find there. The animals also included nomadic 175 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,079 Speaker 1: peoples who ranged across the grasslands, while of course still 176 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 1: other humans enjoyed the rich environment along the coasts of 177 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:20,640 Speaker 1: the Great River. Yeah, and this damp period in ancient 178 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,760 Speaker 1: prehistoric Africa is one of the reasons that you can, 179 00:10:23,840 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: for example, find beautiful rock carvings at places, say in 180 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:31,319 Speaker 1: the middle of the Sahara desert that could not support 181 00:10:31,440 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: human life today or not, and not a sustained sedentary 182 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: life there today. Yeah so so yeah, these areas that 183 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: are now desert were once um more more filled with life, 184 00:10:43,760 --> 00:10:46,719 Speaker 1: but then the land began to dry out and that 185 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 1: left the river as the main thing, really the only 186 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: thing to cling to. And Pinch rightes that this would 187 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: have been a period of not only great climatic change 188 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 1: but also cultural change, and that it might have helped 189 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,240 Speaker 1: shape the idea in Egyptian mythology that the world was 190 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: once different. And of course we see this in another 191 00:11:04,600 --> 00:11:07,439 Speaker 1: cosmologies as well, the idea that there was a world before, 192 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: that there was a life before. But it's interesting to 193 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: think of about that in terms of of of climate 194 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: change totally. So by the fourth millennium b C. E 195 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: agricultural communities, you know, it certainly cropped up along the 196 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,640 Speaker 1: Nile and UH. The resulting world of the ancient Egyptians 197 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: was rather unique. So you had hostile deserts that were 198 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:34,120 Speaker 1: difficult to cross that made up nine of Egyptian territory, 199 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 1: cutting them off from UH from from these UH you know, 200 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: other lands to the east, west and south, and also sufferance, 201 00:11:42,480 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 1: serving as a buffer zone between them and these lands. 202 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 1: These sort of empty lands were called the Red lands. 203 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 1: Um though. Uh, it's also worth noting that you have 204 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: mountains in some of the desert regions that did offer 205 00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 1: mineral wealth. So it wasn't just it wasn't simply a 206 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: case of well, there's nothing out there that that was 207 00:12:00,000 --> 00:12:03,320 Speaker 1: of use to the Egyptians. Uh, but certainly in terms 208 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,560 Speaker 1: of like the thing that gave you life on a 209 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 1: daily basis, that that was tied to the Nile. Meanwhile, 210 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 1: to the north you had where the Nihil empties into 211 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: the Mediterranean Sea, you have the vast salt marsh, and 212 00:12:15,240 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 1: and then of course the Mediterranean itself. And Pinch notes 213 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: that the Egyptians were never enthusiastic seafares and they're kind 214 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: of a rarity and being one of the very few 215 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: coastal cultures to worship no deities of the sea. That's interesting. 216 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:33,800 Speaker 1: I never thought of that before. Yeah, because I mean 217 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: you think about certainly, um uh, you know Greek traditions. 218 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: You know, you see the mighty role that Poseidon plays, 219 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: and not only Poseidon, but various other um see gods 220 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: and goddesses minor and major that were you know that 221 00:12:49,480 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: that that we're also worshiped, and sometimes we're worshiped instead 222 00:12:55,160 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: of Poseidon, and all kind of are kind of caught 223 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 1: up in the more or less canonized version of of 224 00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:03,840 Speaker 1: Greek mythology that we have today. Well in Greek and 225 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,880 Speaker 1: Roman mythology, I think you can absolutely see this duality 226 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 1: of the ocean embodied in the gods and monsters that 227 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,439 Speaker 1: are associated with it. Because the sea is a place 228 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:17,520 Speaker 1: of great opportunity, so it's often sort of associated with 229 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: wealth somehow, but it is also a place of great danger, 230 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: and it's temperamental and it's unpredictable. Uh. You know, Poseidon 231 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:29,640 Speaker 1: is often just like the jerky ist of gods. Yeah, 232 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 1: And so we're going to see a lot of that 233 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:36,280 Speaker 1: same duality in the ancient Egyptian treatment of the Nile, because, 234 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: I mean, a river is not a docile thing, especially 235 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:43,600 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a great river like like the Nile, 236 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: which is depending on how you're measuring it against the Amazon, 237 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: it's either the longest river on Earth or like the 238 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 1: second longest. It is it is undoubtedly a great river, uh, 239 00:13:54,880 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 1: and which means it has great power to both create 240 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: and destroy and key to that is the inundation, So 241 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: the Nihil is subject to this annual inundation occurs between 242 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 1: May and August UH, caused by a combination of monsoon 243 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,280 Speaker 1: rains and melting snow in the mountains of Ethiopia, and 244 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:18,200 Speaker 1: as a result, the Nile River expands, the Nile River explodes, 245 00:14:18,280 --> 00:14:21,440 Speaker 1: It floods low lying lands and the Nile River basin 246 00:14:21,520 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 1: and the Nile delta uh. Not only does it water 247 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: the lands, it also deposits a thick layer of silt, 248 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: so as the waters recede, they leave behind rich and 249 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,760 Speaker 1: fertile soil that is ideal for agricultural use. Yeah, and 250 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,960 Speaker 1: this proves really important in things you'll later see, like 251 00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 1: the technology that the ancient Egyptians figured out in order 252 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 1: to irrigate their crops, which involved um often ways of 253 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: constructing dikes and canals and stuff where you would let 254 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:51,600 Speaker 1: in the waters of the flooding Nile as it comes 255 00:14:51,640 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: in from the highlands. Uh. And and then you would 256 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 1: just let that water sort of sit there and soak 257 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: in the in the irrigation ditches for a while before 258 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: you'd eventually let it run back out into the river 259 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: later on. And I think the idea there was not 260 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: just that it would moisten the soil, but that you 261 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,040 Speaker 1: were you were trying to give it time for the 262 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: mineral rich silt that comes down from the highlands and 263 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: the river to settle onto the bottom and and sort 264 00:15:16,120 --> 00:15:18,760 Speaker 1: of bring the vitamins. I know they're not vitamins, but 265 00:15:18,800 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 1: the minerals and uh and chemical riches of that soil 266 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: to help put put the nutrients into the soil in 267 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: your fields that your crops need. Yeah, the link here 268 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: to irrigation is is certainly worth noting because uh, with 269 00:15:33,120 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: with the inundation, we're talking about natural irrigation. And this 270 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: is this is where our you know, our our our 271 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,000 Speaker 1: ancestors understanding of of what is would be possible with 272 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: with unnatural irrigation, a man made irrigation. Uh, you know 273 00:15:49,160 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: what they could do in terms of okay, well, you 274 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: know we have this flooding that occurs, but what if 275 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: we try to control the flooding. And this is of 276 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:59,520 Speaker 1: course not a tail specific to U to Egypt. We 277 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: see the sin uh in in all the the the 278 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: great civilizations of old, you know the importance of the 279 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,880 Speaker 1: floodplain and then the the eventual technology that emerges in 280 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 1: managing the waters in order to enable agriculture to continue 281 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: to flourish in a way that could be you know, controlled, 282 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: there are great Chinese myths about controlling the flow of rivers. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, 283 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,240 Speaker 1: So this is this is a trend, like like a 284 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,520 Speaker 1: referenced earlier, Like we could we could go from here 285 00:16:29,840 --> 00:16:32,840 Speaker 1: and do a whole series of episodes, invention based episodes 286 00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: just on um irrigation technology, because human history is basically 287 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: a story of humans figuring out the best ways to 288 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:46,920 Speaker 1: manage their water supply. Yeah, that's exactly right. But I 289 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: wanted to mention another aspect of the Nile, and I 290 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 1: know you've got thoughts about this too, which is that 291 00:16:52,280 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: so we were saying that sometimes gods of the sea 292 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: are kind of fickle, they're kind of unpredictable there that 293 00:16:58,200 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: they can be dangerous at the same time time that 294 00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: they can represent great wealth. You know, you you can 295 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: the sea can be your livelihood, but also it can 296 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 1: bring storms that crash you against the rocks. And the 297 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,439 Speaker 1: same thing can be very true of the Nile, but 298 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: in a different way. So on the banks of the Nile, 299 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: for for the farmers and the crops that support Egyptian civilization, 300 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 1: there would be this flooding season that would allow you 301 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,720 Speaker 1: to moisten your fields and nourish your crops. But if 302 00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:27,720 Speaker 1: the flooding season fails in either direction, if the waters 303 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: either do not climb high enough or if they climb 304 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:34,080 Speaker 1: too high, it's disaster. Right yeah, yeah, If yeah, you 305 00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,800 Speaker 1: don't get enough water, then you're not gonna get enough 306 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:40,239 Speaker 1: flooding and you're not gonna grow enough food. Um, if 307 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: you get just the right amount, then it's perfect because 308 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: you're gonna get enough food to feed the entire population 309 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:49,640 Speaker 1: plus more, you know, and that surplus that is such 310 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: a vital aspect of of the rise and and and 311 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: you know, and sustaining nature of civilizations. But then, yeah, 312 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,879 Speaker 1: if you get too much water, then it's overflowing of 313 00:17:59,040 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: the flood zones. Then it's destroying communities, it's drowning people, 314 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,879 Speaker 1: it's causing death and destruction. Yeah. And you saw this, uh, 315 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 1: this version of the calamity coming through in one interpretation 316 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: of the situation that was being described in the Tempest Steel. 317 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 1: I remember there was this idea that the Nile is 318 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: flooding for some reason, and it says that there are 319 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: well There's one passage that I think was somewhat open 320 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: to interpretation, but it sounded like it was talking about 321 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,800 Speaker 1: the bodies of dead people floating like skiffs of papyrus 322 00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:31,359 Speaker 1: in the water and uh and so yeah, obviously like 323 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: if the water has come too high, I can destroy 324 00:18:33,520 --> 00:18:38,479 Speaker 1: your towns. Yeah. So uh. The Pinch nicely summarizes this 325 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: by saying, quote, the whole welfare of the country depended 326 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: on this one phenomenon. Uh. And because of this, the 327 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:48,359 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptians seemed to have felt both uniquely blessed and 328 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: uniquely vulnerable. And um, yeah, that's that's interesting to think 329 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: about it. Again, you see shades of this in a 330 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,880 Speaker 1: in a lot of mythologies that the idea that you're 331 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,280 Speaker 1: ultimately depending on on some sort of you know, natural 332 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 1: abb and flow that you do not control. There's a 333 00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,439 Speaker 1: certain amount of chaos uh to this system, even if 334 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:19,399 Speaker 1: there is uh still some order that you can cling to. Now. Um, 335 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: as we mentioned earlier, they're multiple Egyptian gods and goddess 336 00:19:24,840 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: is tied up with the inundation and ultimately with the Nile. Uh. 337 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 1: So well, if you if you were ever read anywhere, 338 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,720 Speaker 1: if you see like a god or goddess of the 339 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: ancient Egyptian pantheon described as the God of the Nile, 340 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,560 Speaker 1: then that is that isn't that is at least an 341 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,760 Speaker 1: oversimplification of things, because there is no one true god 342 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: of the Nile. There's no one uh, central god even 343 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 1: of the inundation, but rather different divine beings that represent 344 00:19:53,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: different parts of it, which which is uh, Which ultimately 345 00:19:56,520 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: I think makes a lot of sense, because again, if 346 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: this river and this annual flooding is so central to 347 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: life and your view of the of the universe, then 348 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,280 Speaker 1: it's going to be too They're too complicated to have 349 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:15,160 Speaker 1: one figure, one sort of you know, humanoid apparition summing 350 00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: it all up. Well, yes, And I think you can 351 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 1: see ways in which the inundation, the yearly inundation of 352 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: the Nile, took up so much of the brain space 353 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:28,400 Speaker 1: of ancient Egyptian peoples that it becomes a central sort 354 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 1: of metaphor for anything that is overwhelming or unpredictable, or 355 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 1: bringing great great riches or bringing bringing great destruction. I 356 00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,680 Speaker 1: was looking at a different part of Geraldine Pinch's handbook 357 00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: on Egyptian Mythology, and there's one part where she's talking 358 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:48,159 Speaker 1: about one of the stories of the poisoning of the 359 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 1: god Ray and I think the story I believe is 360 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,919 Speaker 1: called the True Name of Ray. And uh, there's a 361 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 1: part where she quotes from the from a translation of 362 00:20:57,600 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: the text that said, after he's been poisoned at the 363 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: poison had overwhelmed his body, like the inundation overwhelms everything 364 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: in its path. So it's just this ready made metaphor. 365 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: It's the imagery that easily comes to mind whenever you're 366 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: thinking about, uh, any number of different dynamics. Yeah. Yeah, 367 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 1: And the same way that we depend so much on 368 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 1: various technologies today, is there as there, you know, to 369 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: draw our metaphors from to make sense of what we're 370 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: doing and uh, and the world we're living in. Well, 371 00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I might compare it to the metaphor of 372 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 1: like the metaphors of the seasons and many other cultures 373 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:38,480 Speaker 1: that the inundation metaphor could be as common and easily 374 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,399 Speaker 1: accessed when one is searching for something with which to 375 00:21:41,440 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: compare the thing you're talking about right now to the 376 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:46,720 Speaker 1: way that we so easily reach for metaphors about winter 377 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 1: turning into spring, you know, spring and sprong or something 378 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: like that, is the winter of our discontent exactly. Yeah, 379 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,199 Speaker 1: and you would say something more on the lines of 380 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: now is the inundation of our discontent or our content 381 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 1: depending on how it goes. It's in inundation time in America. Uh. So, 382 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: you know, we have more on on the deities in 383 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,680 Speaker 1: a bit, but basically the inundation itself was seen as 384 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: part of the divine order of things or or MOTT 385 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 1: which is generally spelled M A A T in English, 386 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: and the creator of all things, though ultimately there's less 387 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: emphasis on this in ancient Egyptian mythology. Is the Sun, uh, 388 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 1: you know, the the ancient Egyptians where the children of 389 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: the Sun and the Egyptian world existed at the center. Uh. 390 00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:35,320 Speaker 1: And in its divine order, uh, you know, all encompassing 391 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,679 Speaker 1: and then surrounding it, you had the primeval waters of None, 392 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,960 Speaker 1: out of which the creator God emerged, and the Nile 393 00:22:42,080 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: and the inundation extend out of the nun so they're 394 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: flowing out of that as well. Yeah, and what you 395 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: said reminds me of something else I was just reading 396 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 1: about recently, about the idea of primeval waters. One thing 397 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: that's really interesting about a lot of mythic geography or 398 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:03,439 Speaker 1: cosmology around the world is the idea of waters that 399 00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: are beyond the mundane waters. You know, so you've got 400 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: your rivers, lakes, and seas that are just sort of 401 00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:11,840 Speaker 1: part of the world. But then there are waters beyond. 402 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:14,680 Speaker 1: And these could be beyond some kind of physical horizon 403 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:18,240 Speaker 1: or beyond some kind of like time or metaphysical horizon. 404 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: Uh so there there are often waters that exist underneath 405 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: the earth in some mythic cosmologies, or waters that surround 406 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 1: the continents, or even waters that surround the sky. I 407 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: mean a lot of ancient people's thought that the sky 408 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,320 Speaker 1: was somehow full of a flood, and you could easily 409 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 1: see that, you know, when the when the skies break 410 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,919 Speaker 1: open and it rains, that's water falling down from above. 411 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 1: But then also there are waters that there are tons 412 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,959 Speaker 1: of stories about waters that existed and flooded everything before 413 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: the creation of the world. I was reading about this 414 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: in the Encyclopedia of Creation Myths by the scholar David Leming, 415 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: who argues that no motif occurs more often in creation 416 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:04,199 Speaker 1: myths around the globe than that of primordial waters. It 417 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: is the single most common theme of cosmic origin stories 418 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,479 Speaker 1: in all of human culture. Uh and that it's central 419 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,199 Speaker 1: to a number of different kinds of creation myths, like 420 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,280 Speaker 1: the creation out of chaos myths, the earth diver type 421 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:22,320 Speaker 1: creation myths. All of these have waters that existed before 422 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,959 Speaker 1: there were lands and and all of the you know, 423 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,680 Speaker 1: living things on them and all of the order there. 424 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,959 Speaker 1: There's some kind of previous time of an expanse of 425 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:36,280 Speaker 1: undifferentiated ocean. And so the question is like, why are 426 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: there so many creation myths involving this landless cosmic ocean 427 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 1: before before the current order of the world, And Leaving 428 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 1: actually has thoughts about why that is so. Just to 429 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 1: read from his entry here, he says there are several 430 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: reasons for the ubiquity of this motif. All cultures naturally 431 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,720 Speaker 1: recognized water as a necessary source of life and survival, 432 00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 1: making it a useful symbol of creative fertility. Large masses 433 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 1: of water are uncontrollable and therefore aptly representative of chaos. 434 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:11,720 Speaker 1: In tandem, these two symbolic functions lead us to the 435 00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: idea of potential, as yet unformed creation. Oh and he 436 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 1: and he also talks about the idea of waters as 437 00:25:19,359 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: traditionally often having UH sort of a divine gender associations 438 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: like uh, waters in some ways being mythically associated with 439 00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: female qualities and having to do with maternal waters and 440 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:35,159 Speaker 1: and creation of the earth as a kind of birth. 441 00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:39,080 Speaker 1: But the central idea is that water is necessary for 442 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: every aspect of life, and yet the oceans are untamed 443 00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,480 Speaker 1: and untamable, sort of chaos embodied. And this these two 444 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: things come together to create the the ultimate human vision 445 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:56,400 Speaker 1: of a chaos of potential before the world. We know, Yeah, absolutely, 446 00:25:56,520 --> 00:25:59,719 Speaker 1: we see that. Yeah, we see that reflected here as well. Yeah, 447 00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 1: so I don't know. It's like when whenever I picture 448 00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: the creation myth that says creation from the void or 449 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: creation from chaos, I'm always picturing space. You know. My 450 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:12,640 Speaker 1: brain has been fed with science fiction. So I'm picturing 451 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: inner interplanetary interstellar space. Maybe I can see a starfield 452 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: in the background, But that wouldn't make sense because if 453 00:26:18,840 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 1: it's supposed to be creation out of nothing or from chaos, 454 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 1: there wouldn't be stars yet that's some kind of order. 455 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: It would just have to be space. But but really, 456 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 1: maybe to be more in the tradition of of ancient 457 00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: human thinking, I should be picturing waters again. That's not 458 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,840 Speaker 1: true for every culture and every creation myth, but it's 459 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: shockingly common. Yeah. So so again in the in the 460 00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,160 Speaker 1: Egyptian tradition, we have Noon that that's the primeval waters, 461 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,719 Speaker 1: and Noon feeds the Nile and the inundation um. And 462 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:51,480 Speaker 1: then on top of that we also have the foreign 463 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:54,200 Speaker 1: lands and deserts that border Egypt, and these are realms 464 00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: of chaos or is fed but um. Again, the Nile 465 00:26:59,640 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: was thought to flow from Noon and therefore is the 466 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 1: work of the Creator God. And there are several different 467 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: versions of the Creator God Uh. And specifically, the floodwaters 468 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: were said to flow from the two secret caverns formed 469 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 1: by the Creator Sandals. And so this is where we 470 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:16,919 Speaker 1: get into some of the not all, but some of 471 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: the the major deities that are tied up with the 472 00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: Nile and specifically the the inundation. So the creator god 473 00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: Keenum guards over these caverns, it said, and also could 474 00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,680 Speaker 1: be thought to control the inundation, and he was often 475 00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: depicted as a human with the head of a long 476 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: horned ram and was said to have created human beings 477 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:44,000 Speaker 1: from the wet clay left over from the inundation. Thus 478 00:27:44,040 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: he's a god of of pottery as well, kind of 479 00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: a god of creative technology and like a lot Like 480 00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:54,320 Speaker 1: like all gods and goddesses in long standing cultures, his 481 00:27:54,400 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 1: exact role shifts over time. There's an evolution, there's their 482 00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 1: changes that he's not a singular thing, a part of 483 00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 1: a tradition like all of these these entities. But he's 484 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: associated ultimately not only with the creation of humans, but 485 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,000 Speaker 1: of technologies like boats, and also with the birthing of 486 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:14,080 Speaker 1: of of newborn gods and kings. So he is the 487 00:28:14,080 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: god of the wheel as well, and this is this 488 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: is beautiful as well. The god of the nocturnal sun. 489 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: He is the soul of ray passing through the underworld. Wow, 490 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: the nocturnal sun. So that that's when they have the 491 00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:30,199 Speaker 1: idea that the sun during the day goes through the 492 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: sky and at night goes has to pass through the underworld. Okay, yeah, again, 493 00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: we have to put our put our ourselves in the 494 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,360 Speaker 1: mindset of of this kind of cosmology where there is 495 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: only our world, there is only Egypt, and where the 496 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: sun goes when it goes over the horizon, you know, 497 00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: it's going into darkness, it's going through this uh, this 498 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,640 Speaker 1: arduous journey. So that it might come back up again 499 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:56,440 Speaker 1: and light the world. Oh God, I wish I could 500 00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,000 Speaker 1: remember the details. Isn't there something about how in at 501 00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: least one version of the story, the sun is a 502 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:04,000 Speaker 1: barge that as it goes under the ground at night, 503 00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:06,440 Speaker 1: it gets attacked by the same monster every night, and 504 00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: as it to be set by and by monsters, demons, 505 00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,960 Speaker 1: and it is it's like a group effort to fight 506 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:14,960 Speaker 1: off these monsters and protect the sun so that it 507 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: can come back up the next day. It's gorgeous. Yeah, 508 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: uh so, so that that's one major deity. And then 509 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:24,720 Speaker 1: one of the other ones, of course, is is Hoppy, 510 00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: who we talked about at the top of the podcast, 511 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,960 Speaker 1: the one that's often spelled like hp y. It looks 512 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,720 Speaker 1: a lot like happy. And again that's not completely off 513 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,719 Speaker 1: the mark, because this god is the personification of the 514 00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,760 Speaker 1: positive aspects of the inundation and is sometimes depicted as 515 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: an obese, green or blue man with pendulous breasts. Yeah, 516 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: so sometimes you'll see him represented with uh they don't 517 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: always look exactly like like organic human breasts, like sometimes 518 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,640 Speaker 1: they look like a kind of strange like triangle coming 519 00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 1: out of his armpit. At least in some of the 520 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: illustrations I've seen, but I think they are is to 521 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,680 Speaker 1: be breasts. Yeah, and because ultimately he is nourishing. Um. 522 00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,000 Speaker 1: So I have to admit, like when when I picture 523 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 1: him in my mind, I imagine something like Max Ribo 524 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: from the Return of the Jedi, you know, the keyboard player. Um, 525 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,520 Speaker 1: because he's often got blue or green skin. Yeah. And 526 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,520 Speaker 1: also I mean Max Rebo has a very um you know, 527 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,240 Speaker 1: pleasant aura. He's he's he's happiness in good times and 528 00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,200 Speaker 1: thus is is hoppy. All humans seeing hymns to him. 529 00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,239 Speaker 1: The creatures rejoice, so uh when when he's approaching. So 530 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 1: he is the lord of fishes, he's the maker of grain. 531 00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:37,920 Speaker 1: And he also plays a key role in the vital 532 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:42,040 Speaker 1: Egyptian myth of murdered Osirius uh as the waters of 533 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: inundation play a role in reviving him, just as they 534 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: revived the crops every year. But okay, so that's the 535 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,200 Speaker 1: This is the pleasant side, the beneficial side of the inundation. 536 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 1: But of course the inundation has this destructive side as well, 537 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: this dark side, and it is personified by the distant 538 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,719 Speaker 1: goddess um, which you can I guess you can kind 539 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: of think in in Pinches writing, it's kind of like 540 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: this is the this is the goddess, but it is 541 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,520 Speaker 1: also kind of a broad categorization of goddess that is 542 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,720 Speaker 1: associated with different individual goddesses at times. Um. But basically 543 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: the idea here is that, first of all, it's the 544 00:31:18,760 --> 00:31:22,920 Speaker 1: distance thing again in the ancient Egyptian cosmology distance and 545 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 1: it probably means pushing you out into the desert and 546 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: towards those kingdoms of chaos, and so that that is 547 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,800 Speaker 1: the place where the distant goddess is said to resides. 548 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,640 Speaker 1: Sometimes it's depicted as having this terrible um leonine form. She's, 549 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 1: you know, kind of like some sort of giant lion, 550 00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: and and so she inhabits these lands. She is associated 551 00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: with with Ray or rob perhaps as a feminine aspect 552 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: of him or the soul i uh. But she becomes 553 00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:57,200 Speaker 1: an uncontrollable and angry deity that therefore takes up in 554 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,800 Speaker 1: the chaotic land. So she's kind of like a shar 555 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,360 Speaker 1: all of of the almighty Sun God, you know, she's 556 00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:06,880 Speaker 1: like a piece of him, but she's gone rogue and 557 00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: is therefore a danger to the people of Egypt. Uh. 558 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: Though there are myths associated with her retrieval by Onerous, 559 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:18,000 Speaker 1: the mythical hunter who brings the solar lion back to 560 00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:22,280 Speaker 1: Egypt too much rejoicing. So Pinch writes that the implication 561 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: of the various distant goddess myths is that quote, if 562 00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 1: the destructive anger of the solar eye is not balanced 563 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:32,479 Speaker 1: by the justice and truth personified by Matt, the world 564 00:32:32,480 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 1: will slide into chaos. And again, different goddesses are associated 565 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: with this role Uh depending on the exact account, including 566 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 1: uh Bastet, hath Or and others. Now, again, there are 567 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: multiple additional gods that factor into the inundation in one 568 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,080 Speaker 1: way or another. Um. And again we have to remember 569 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: the central role that it played in Egyptian life, all 570 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 1: the sacred connotations that absorbed. We're not gonna attempt to 571 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: list them all here. Um. You can read about about 572 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: many of them in Pinches that Oyptian Mythology book if 573 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: you want. There are also some other excellent texts out 574 00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: there on on Egyptian deities. But there is one in 575 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,440 Speaker 1: particular I wanted to bring up, and that is a 576 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 1: heck At. This is a frog headed goddess who plays 577 00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:17,200 Speaker 1: a vital role in childbirth and the rebirth of the dead. 578 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 1: So she's she's the divine midwife, so she's a follower 579 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: of hope and um sometimes a female counter counterpart of 580 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: of of of keydom, and a frequent motif on ivory wands, 581 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: which are these kind of boomerang shaped pendent things that 582 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: were that were used to protect women and children. Um. 583 00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:40,959 Speaker 1: But Plenty of the Elder actually wrote on some of 584 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,360 Speaker 1: this talking about the frog motif, apparently commenting that the 585 00:33:44,400 --> 00:33:48,880 Speaker 1: Egyptians thought that frog spontaneously emerged from the mud left 586 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: over by the inundation, which is interesting because on one hand, 587 00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:56,640 Speaker 1: of of course, that that's not exactly how it works. Obviously, 588 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: the mud of the inundation is not giving birth to 589 00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: the frog. But but but but that flooding is what 590 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: makes the reemergence of the frogs possible. You know. It 591 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,920 Speaker 1: is the the annual sustaining um uh flood. It is 592 00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: the is the bringing of the water and the bringing 593 00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,680 Speaker 1: of the nutrients that make life possible in Egypt. Yeah, 594 00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: that's really interesting. Now, I wonder I don't know if 595 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: Plenty is correct in ascribing that belief to the ancient Egyptians. 596 00:34:23,160 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: But if he is, But if he is correct, that 597 00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,560 Speaker 1: would be in keeping with a lot of theories throughout 598 00:34:27,600 --> 00:34:31,000 Speaker 1: history about the spontaneous generation of animals from certain types 599 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: of especially damp sorts of conditions. Now, one thing I 600 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: was thinking about is that, of course, things are different 601 00:34:37,760 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 1: in the Nile today because of human technology. You know, 602 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,240 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, Egypt implemented a system of dams 603 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: and reservoirs to control the flow of the Nile pretty 604 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: much with with complete success. Now, like the people of Egypt, 605 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:53,840 Speaker 1: of course have been using various forms of dams and 606 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: dikes and irrigation on the Nile for thousands of years, 607 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,560 Speaker 1: but with modern techniques and modern technology that were available 608 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: in the twentieth century, I think the real keystone here 609 00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 1: was the construction of the aswan Hi damn under Nasser 610 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,920 Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties. Uh following that, Egypt was essentially 611 00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,200 Speaker 1: able to end its flooding cycle like that it could 612 00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,640 Speaker 1: now store up excess water from the rainy season to 613 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: be released in a controlled way even during the traditional 614 00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: dry season, which of course would just be a revolutionary 615 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,560 Speaker 1: change for the Egyptian people. But at the same time, 616 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,799 Speaker 1: I have to wonder, like, in in mythological terms, does 617 00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:34,040 Speaker 1: this represent a kind of de acide. Is this a 618 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 1: slaying of Hoppy? Um? Yeah, you could look at it 619 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,360 Speaker 1: that way, right, like the like this is the tale 620 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:45,359 Speaker 1: of how humans finally, um conquer the gods. But on 621 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: the other hand, you could say, well, um, you know 622 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:51,200 Speaker 1: Kenome was the is kind of a god of technology 623 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,000 Speaker 1: as well as this god tied up with the inundation, 624 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,319 Speaker 1: so you know, he's he's kind of president at the 625 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 1: victory celebration. So it's it's he's ultimately some of these 626 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: entities are tied up in the same the same tale. 627 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: I mean also hope in a way he would be there, right, 628 00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:08,560 Speaker 1: because he's all about the good stuff that comes with 629 00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: the inundation. Um. And I mean the story of modern 630 00:36:13,200 --> 00:36:16,759 Speaker 1: technology is that the the the negative connotations are are 631 00:36:16,840 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: never completely dispelled. So the distant goddess is never that distant. Well, 632 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:23,800 Speaker 1: maybe you could think about it now that that Hoppy 633 00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,160 Speaker 1: is just embodied in the water that sits in the 634 00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,920 Speaker 1: reservoir behind the damn and is just released gradually throughout 635 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:34,560 Speaker 1: the year. So instead of sending his blessings in an 636 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,080 Speaker 1: unpredictable way, his blessings can now be distributed in a 637 00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: very organized and orderly way. Instead of being a comedian 638 00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:45,880 Speaker 1: or music of you know, a music star that that 639 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,520 Speaker 1: periodically appears at the casino. Hoppy has a residency at 640 00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:52,520 Speaker 1: the casino at this point, so you can count on 641 00:36:52,600 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: him being there. Thank So. I've got another thing I 642 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 1: want to talk about, and this is going to take 643 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,240 Speaker 1: us into the realm of biochemistry, because I was thinking 644 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: about the cycles associated with the flooding of the Nile 645 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 1: and uh this this led me to a really interesting 646 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: article that was published just a few months ago, was 647 00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:19,000 Speaker 1: in December of and it was a newst feature for 648 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: the journal Nature, written by Michael Marshall that was called 649 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,760 Speaker 1: how the first life on Earth survived its biggest threat Water. 650 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,320 Speaker 1: So we've discussed this a bit on the show before, 651 00:37:31,320 --> 00:37:34,520 Speaker 1: but obviously one of the biggest outstanding puzzles in all 652 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,800 Speaker 1: of the biological sciences is the origin of life on Earth. 653 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:43,120 Speaker 1: You know, assuming that the first living cells evolved from 654 00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: precursor chemicals somewhere in the early history of the planet, 655 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,239 Speaker 1: how did that happen? You know, what were the conditions 656 00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: that led to that, How common are those conditions and 657 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:56,840 Speaker 1: could they be replicated? So for a long time, the 658 00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: dominant thinking among biochemists has been that the earliest chemical 659 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,320 Speaker 1: precursors to life as we know it must have arisen 660 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,880 Speaker 1: in the ocean. This is the classic primordial soup idea, 661 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 1: right that somehow in the ancient oceans there would have 662 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,880 Speaker 1: been the swirling mix of organic molecules of carbon based chemistry, 663 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: and then gradually those molecules would kind of come together 664 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:23,799 Speaker 1: and form the molecular building blocks of life. This was 665 00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: something that was advocated by people like JBS Haldane, And 666 00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:32,080 Speaker 1: there are still some theories about life emerging, but about 667 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: the first precursors to Earth life emerging in parts of 668 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,600 Speaker 1: the ocean, for example, around deep hydrothermal fins. That's one 669 00:38:38,640 --> 00:38:41,920 Speaker 1: of the the versions of this theory that's still going today. 670 00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: But an alternative explanation has been really gaining some traction 671 00:38:46,120 --> 00:38:50,880 Speaker 1: in recent years um because what seems absolutely clear is 672 00:38:50,920 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 1: that you need water in order to put together the 673 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:57,399 Speaker 1: first building blocks of cells. So these building blocks would 674 00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: include things like DNA or RNA, which are information carrying molecules, 675 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: but then also things like proteins that can do the 676 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:10,399 Speaker 1: work of metabolism in life. But that doesn't necessarily mean 677 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 1: that the ocean is the best place for those chemicals 678 00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: to come together, and Marshall in this article calls attention 679 00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: to the research of a scientist named John Sutherland, who 680 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,719 Speaker 1: is a biochemist at the MRC Laboratory of Molecular Biology 681 00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:30,120 Speaker 1: at Cambridge Martial rights quote. Several studies suggest that the 682 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: basic chemicals of life require ultra violet radiation from sunlight 683 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:38,440 Speaker 1: to form, and that the watery environment had to become 684 00:39:38,560 --> 00:39:43,360 Speaker 1: highly concentrated or even dry out completely at times. In 685 00:39:43,480 --> 00:39:48,120 Speaker 1: laboratory experiments, Sutherland and other scientists have produced d n 686 00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: A proteins and other core components of cells by gently 687 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:57,480 Speaker 1: heating simple carbon based chemicals, subjecting them to UV radiation, 688 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,719 Speaker 1: and intermittently drying them out. Chemists have not yet been 689 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:05,160 Speaker 1: able to synthesize such a wide range of biological molecules 690 00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,960 Speaker 1: and conditions that mimic seawater. So, in other words, if 691 00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 1: these studies are going in the right direction, it may 692 00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: be evidence that the origins of life itself are not 693 00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 1: in the deep dark of the ocean, but in the 694 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: cyclical flooding and drying out of something like a sun 695 00:40:22,480 --> 00:40:27,200 Speaker 1: baked puddle or stream bed on the surface of a continent. So, 696 00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 1: in effect, we're talking about not the inundation, but a 697 00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: kind of primeval inundation. Yeah, I mean this, the seasonal 698 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:37,680 Speaker 1: flooding and drying out of I mean the metaphorical connection 699 00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:40,719 Speaker 1: to the nile here is fascinating. And in some ways 700 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: the similarities are not just like aesthetic or superficial, like 701 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:47,200 Speaker 1: you could say that they're actually there are there are 702 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: There are significant similarities in the causal effects of of 703 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:53,840 Speaker 1: what's going on in these two cases. We'll get to 704 00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:56,040 Speaker 1: more of that as I go on. Um So, not 705 00:40:56,120 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 1: all biochemists agree with this direction, obviously, but more Shoal 706 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,880 Speaker 1: rights that quote. It offers a solution to a long 707 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: recognized paradox that although water is essential for life, it 708 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,120 Speaker 1: is also destructive to life's core components. And now remember 709 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:13,640 Speaker 1: you know we we talked on the show a lot 710 00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,239 Speaker 1: about how water is an amazing chemical because it is 711 00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:20,280 Speaker 1: a master solvent. It's a polar molecule with the terrible 712 00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 1: claus you know, these two hydrogen claws that this molecule 713 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:28,800 Speaker 1: will dissolve almost anything, and the molecules necessary for life 714 00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:32,520 Speaker 1: tend to break down over time when submerged in water. 715 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:37,080 Speaker 1: Martial Rights quote proteins and nucleic acids, such as DNA 716 00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,279 Speaker 1: and RNA are vulnerable at their joints. Proteins are made 717 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,880 Speaker 1: of chains of amino acids, and nucleic acids are chains 718 00:41:44,880 --> 00:41:48,520 Speaker 1: of nucleotides. If the chains are placed in water, it 719 00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,720 Speaker 1: attacks the links and eventually breaks them. And he quotes 720 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,040 Speaker 1: the biochemist Robert Shapiro who famously said that when you're 721 00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:00,799 Speaker 1: talking about organic chemistry, quote water as an enemy to 722 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:04,560 Speaker 1: be excluded as rigorously as possible, which which is so 723 00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: funny because I mean, what we're normally thinking about when 724 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: we're thinking about water in life is how necessary water is, 725 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: and it is necessary, but uncontrolled inundation of water will 726 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:19,239 Speaker 1: destroy the very information and machinery necessary. Uh too, that's 727 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:22,920 Speaker 1: underlying all life and all cells on Earth. Yeah. Again, 728 00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: the very duality that is summed up in and in 729 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,839 Speaker 1: these these these deities that we discussed here. Yeah. Yeah, 730 00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,239 Speaker 1: So you can see almost a kind of like the 731 00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,400 Speaker 1: irrigation systems and the systems of dams and dikes that 732 00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 1: are used to manage the nile that actually there's something 733 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:41,560 Speaker 1: similar going on in our cells. Like the cells in 734 00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 1: organisms today keep very tight control on the movement of 735 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,840 Speaker 1: their water contents to prevent the water in their cytoplasm, 736 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,279 Speaker 1: and the cytoplasm is the kind of gel that makes 737 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: up the the interior of a cell. Uh to keep 738 00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,280 Speaker 1: the water in their cytoplasm from harming the genetic material 739 00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,760 Speaker 1: and protein that it surrounds. Marshall in this article quotes 740 00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:06,359 Speaker 1: a synthetic biologist from the University of Minnesota and Minneapolis 741 00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:10,480 Speaker 1: named Kate Adamala, who says, quote, we are taught that 742 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: cytoplasm is just a bag that holds everything and everything 743 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:17,640 Speaker 1: is swimming around. That is not true. Everything is incredibly 744 00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,480 Speaker 1: scaffolded in cells, and it's scaffolded in a gel, not 745 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:26,080 Speaker 1: a water bag. So cytoplasm is mostly made of water. 746 00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: I think it's something something like eight percent water by 747 00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:33,160 Speaker 1: mass or something. But there are structural features in cells 748 00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,680 Speaker 1: that keep the water from tearing up the important stuff again, 749 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:38,719 Speaker 1: kind of like the structure is built around the nile 750 00:43:38,800 --> 00:43:42,279 Speaker 1: to manage its flooding. Yeah. Yeah, So you can look 751 00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:46,440 Speaker 1: at the things that civilization does are only that in 752 00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: many cases, the things that the that are happening just 753 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,960 Speaker 1: in life itself, right, But of course that's that's once 754 00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: we have the cells that have evolved today, think about 755 00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 1: how the first cells could have evolved when they didn't 756 00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:02,319 Speaker 1: have those structures in place yet. So the implication is 757 00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:05,239 Speaker 1: that if the earliest life arose in some kind of 758 00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: natural condition, you know, it didn't have cell structure to 759 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:12,400 Speaker 1: protect it. Yet those natural conditions must have somehow placed 760 00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:16,920 Speaker 1: limits on how and in what ways things got wet. 761 00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: And again this brings us back to the idea of 762 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,800 Speaker 1: places that would intermittently flood and then dry out again. 763 00:44:24,400 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: And the article goes on to cite some examples of 764 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,640 Speaker 1: recent studies supporting this idea. One example by a team 765 00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,799 Speaker 1: including that researcher mentioned earlier, John Sutherland, the biochemist from 766 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 1: Cambridge UH. This study is by Matthew W. Powner, Beatrice Garland, 767 00:44:40,400 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: and John D. Sutherland, published in Nature in two thousand nine, 768 00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:50,319 Speaker 1: called Synthesis of Activated pyramidine Ribonucleotides in prebiotically Plausible Conditions. 769 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:53,200 Speaker 1: So basically what happened here is that UH and this 770 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: is summarized by Marshall, but I trust his summary. Here 771 00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:58,799 Speaker 1: he says that the team managed to create two of 772 00:44:58,840 --> 00:45:02,720 Speaker 1: the four nucleo tides in RNA out of some simple 773 00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:06,600 Speaker 1: chemical precursors. So this would be phosphate and some carbon 774 00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:09,719 Speaker 1: based compounds. I think cyanide salts were an important part 775 00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,760 Speaker 1: of it. So you just start with some chemicals in water, 776 00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,799 Speaker 1: and then by dissolving those chemicals in the water too 777 00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:20,480 Speaker 1: down to a very high concentration, they were able to 778 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:25,120 Speaker 1: create two of these four nucleotides by by some reactions 779 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,720 Speaker 1: that mimic the kind of reactions that would take place 780 00:45:27,760 --> 00:45:30,440 Speaker 1: in a pool or a stream of water that was 781 00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: drying out and concentrating while being exposed to sunlight, including 782 00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:39,720 Speaker 1: UV radiation, and the UV radiation was important. And another 783 00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:44,120 Speaker 1: study in showed that researchers were were able via similar 784 00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:48,239 Speaker 1: means to create the precursors to proteins or lipids, and 785 00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,160 Speaker 1: another study did the same to the constituents of d 786 00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,000 Speaker 1: n A. Here's what I thought that was interesting. Also, 787 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:57,200 Speaker 1: it references a a researcher who's close to us. So 788 00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 1: there's a biochemist named Moran frenkle Piner at the NSF 789 00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:05,719 Speaker 1: NASA Center for Chemical Evolution in Atlanta, and she and 790 00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 1: colleagues published an article in P and AS in nineteen 791 00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:12,920 Speaker 1: that argued, again this is Marshall summary quote. It showed 792 00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:16,759 Speaker 1: that amino acids spontaneously linked up to form protein like 793 00:46:16,960 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: chains if they were dried out, and those kinds of 794 00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:23,960 Speaker 1: reaction were more likely to occur with the twenty amino 795 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,520 Speaker 1: acids found in proteins today compared with other amino acids, 796 00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,840 Speaker 1: That means intermittent drying could help explain why life uses 797 00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:38,520 Speaker 1: only those amino acids out of hundreds of possibilities. Yet again, 798 00:46:38,640 --> 00:46:41,720 Speaker 1: so like if if this were the way that life 799 00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:45,320 Speaker 1: on Earth first evolved, it would explain some chemical features 800 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 1: of modern life that you might otherwise be able to 801 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:52,200 Speaker 1: see is just kind of random or contingent. Another interesting 802 00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,680 Speaker 1: finding about those wet dry cycles. So several of the 803 00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:58,520 Speaker 1: researchers that Marshall talks about in this article point to 804 00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: the importance again not just high concentrations of chemicals and 805 00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:06,719 Speaker 1: a reducing pool of water, but the cycles specifically repeated 806 00:47:06,800 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 1: wet dry cycles. It gets wet, it gets dry, gets wet, 807 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,920 Speaker 1: it gets dry. And one cool example he brings up 808 00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,719 Speaker 1: his research going back several decades by a couple of 809 00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:18,280 Speaker 1: scientists who were at you See Davis at the time, 810 00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,759 Speaker 1: named David Deemer and Gail BArch Field, and they were 811 00:47:22,760 --> 00:47:26,920 Speaker 1: studying the formation of lipids. Now Lipids are also long 812 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: chain molecules like proteins like DNA and RNA, and lipids 813 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,200 Speaker 1: generally do not dissolve in water. You know, of course, 814 00:47:34,239 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: you know that oil and water don't mix well. Oil 815 00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:41,279 Speaker 1: is a lipid. Lipids include things like fatty acids and waxes, 816 00:47:41,840 --> 00:47:44,879 Speaker 1: and cells make use of lipids to survive. Cells tend 817 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:48,080 Speaker 1: to have a protective membrane around them, the sack that 818 00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:52,120 Speaker 1: holds everything inside, and this protective membrane that goes all 819 00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 1: around the outside is made in part of lipids. There's 820 00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: the thing on them called the lipid by layer. Uh. 821 00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:00,560 Speaker 1: And of course cell membranes they do a lot of things, 822 00:48:00,560 --> 00:48:02,760 Speaker 1: but you can think of them mainly as a means 823 00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,520 Speaker 1: of chemical control of what gets in and what gets 824 00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:08,680 Speaker 1: out of a cell. They're almost in a way like 825 00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,680 Speaker 1: putting a dam on a river, controlling the flow of 826 00:48:11,760 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: materials rather than just letting a free flow in in 827 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 1: either direction. And so here again this is martial summary 828 00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,760 Speaker 1: of the research by Deemer and Bartschfeld. Quote. They first 829 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,439 Speaker 1: made vesicles spherical blobs with a watery core surrounded by 830 00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:32,279 Speaker 1: two lipid layers. Then the researchers dried the vesicles and 831 00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:35,880 Speaker 1: the lipids reorganized into a multi layered structure like a 832 00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:40,520 Speaker 1: stack of pancakes. Strands of DNA previously floating in the 833 00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: water became trapped between the layers. When the researchers added 834 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: water again, the vesicles reformed with DNA inside them. This 835 00:48:51,239 --> 00:48:54,600 Speaker 1: was a step towards a simple cell. So you're beginning 836 00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,800 Speaker 1: to see ways that again, you know, it's not knowing 837 00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:59,600 Speaker 1: that this is how it's happened, but very intriguing ways 838 00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:03,960 Speaker 1: to imagine cells structurally coming together for the first time. 839 00:49:04,000 --> 00:49:08,680 Speaker 1: If you've got chemical reactions in reducing concentrated water that 840 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:12,280 Speaker 1: are creating molecules like DNA or RNA, and then somehow 841 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 1: that DNA or RNA is getting trapped inside layers of lipids, 842 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 1: it can start to function like the cells we know today. 843 00:49:20,520 --> 00:49:23,879 Speaker 1: Very cool. Yeah, I love it. It's the the primordial water, 844 00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,640 Speaker 1: so the the inundation all in one. Yeah. And and 845 00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,760 Speaker 1: of course again the key thing being these repeating wet 846 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: dry cycles as a means of getting the constituents of 847 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: life suspended inside protective lipid membranes. And uh and Marshall 848 00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:43,000 Speaker 1: of course mentions a bunch of other stuff. Actually, they're 849 00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:46,080 Speaker 1: they're subsequent research by Deemer and colleagues that has continued 850 00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:49,040 Speaker 1: to drive this logic forward. There's also some cool stuff 851 00:49:49,080 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: in this article about ways that you could think about 852 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,960 Speaker 1: about wet and dry cycles as almost kind of an 853 00:49:56,000 --> 00:50:00,759 Speaker 1: evolutionary pressure on early chemical constituents of life by like 854 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,880 Speaker 1: repeatedly wetting them and drying them out. There was this 855 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:07,600 Speaker 1: process of uh, sort of winnowing out the weaker forms 856 00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:10,959 Speaker 1: of molecules and allowing the more robust types of life 857 00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:15,000 Speaker 1: precursor molecules to to survive, a kind of evolution before 858 00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,319 Speaker 1: there's actually a cell which is which is pretty interesting possibility. 859 00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:21,080 Speaker 1: But anyway, towards the end of the article, it starts 860 00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,160 Speaker 1: talking about, well, so specifically what kind of situation or 861 00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:27,480 Speaker 1: are these scientists really imagining like where life could have arisen, 862 00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:32,120 Speaker 1: and so several researchers mentioned different ideas. One is the 863 00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:36,359 Speaker 1: idea of a partially flooded meteorite impact crater drying out 864 00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:39,839 Speaker 1: in the sun, maybe with streams running into and out 865 00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,680 Speaker 1: of it somehow, or perhaps a volcanic hot spring pool 866 00:50:43,760 --> 00:50:47,000 Speaker 1: with wet and dry cycles at its edges. So yeah, 867 00:50:47,000 --> 00:50:50,360 Speaker 1: I mean this goes against the traditional idea of the 868 00:50:50,400 --> 00:50:53,080 Speaker 1: earliest life forms arising in the ocean. But I like 869 00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:55,359 Speaker 1: this new image that it's almost the kind of like 870 00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,080 Speaker 1: a tidal zone of a tiny ocean that may have 871 00:50:58,120 --> 00:51:00,160 Speaker 1: been no bigger than a puddle. You know that the 872 00:51:00,239 --> 00:51:03,279 Speaker 1: part of the rock surface that gets wet and then 873 00:51:03,360 --> 00:51:05,640 Speaker 1: dries out in the sun and then gets wet again 874 00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,319 Speaker 1: could be where the the oldest of our ancestors came from. 875 00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:12,879 Speaker 1: And then the article also mentions a bunch of other 876 00:51:12,920 --> 00:51:15,839 Speaker 1: studies that it comes back I think to be even 877 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:20,000 Speaker 1: handed with reasons for thinking that oceanic origins, particularly those 878 00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:24,120 Speaker 1: around deep sea hydrothermal vents, could still be viable explanations. 879 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 1: According to some other experts, there's even like one hypothesis 880 00:51:27,360 --> 00:51:30,799 Speaker 1: about how you could potentially create wet dry cycling in 881 00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:34,120 Speaker 1: and around the rocks lining deep see events. So the 882 00:51:34,200 --> 00:51:37,040 Speaker 1: article as a whole is definitely worth a read. But 883 00:51:37,200 --> 00:51:39,919 Speaker 1: then one last thing that's cool is he connects this 884 00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,799 Speaker 1: strain of research to some of the goals of the 885 00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:46,040 Speaker 1: Mars Perseverance Rover around the JA zero crater on the 886 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,520 Speaker 1: surface of Mars, because it's going to be looking for 887 00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,640 Speaker 1: possible signs of past or present life on Mars. In 888 00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:57,000 Speaker 1: similar wet dry conditions. Interesting. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's 889 00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,399 Speaker 1: that that makes sense. So yeah, you know, in a way, 890 00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:04,200 Speaker 1: we are looking for the possible um uh birth of 891 00:52:04,200 --> 00:52:08,200 Speaker 1: of of life, the birth of a new pantheon on Mars, 892 00:52:09,200 --> 00:52:13,879 Speaker 1: the recurring blessings of Hoppy on another planet, yeah space Hoppy. 893 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,000 Speaker 1: I love it, uh. And I also love that that 894 00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:19,319 Speaker 1: we were able to, you know, to begin by by 895 00:52:19,360 --> 00:52:24,399 Speaker 1: talking about um, about mythology and UM and irrigation and 896 00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,840 Speaker 1: and get into these these questions about life itself that 897 00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:32,239 Speaker 1: ultimately kind of loop back around into the mythological you know, uh, 898 00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,320 Speaker 1: the areas that have that are contemplated by both uh, 899 00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:38,200 Speaker 1: you know, science and mythology. Oh this kind of stuff 900 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:42,640 Speaker 1: that really gets my brain tingling. Yeah. Absolutely, And like 901 00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,400 Speaker 1: we said, we uh, there are various jumping off points 902 00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,480 Speaker 1: from here, so we we I guess we can ask 903 00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,600 Speaker 1: the listeners to chime in, like, what what would you 904 00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,440 Speaker 1: like next? You want us to do you want us 905 00:52:51,440 --> 00:52:54,200 Speaker 1: to talk about of Cyrus in a future episode. Do 906 00:52:54,239 --> 00:52:57,560 Speaker 1: you want us to to go all in on irrigation technology? 907 00:52:57,680 --> 00:52:59,640 Speaker 1: Or maybe you just wanted to go like partially in, 908 00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,600 Speaker 1: like I don't know, knee deep in irrigation technology. H 909 00:53:02,840 --> 00:53:06,000 Speaker 1: what's your comfort level? Because it's I was looking through 910 00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:08,719 Speaker 1: some of it earlier and it's you know, super fascinating. Again. 911 00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: Human human civilization is kind of a story of irrigation technology. 912 00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:15,600 Speaker 1: So there's a lot to discuss. All right, we're gonna 913 00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,320 Speaker 1: go ahead and close it out there, But in the meantime, 914 00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:19,920 Speaker 1: if you would like to check out other episodes of 915 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,320 Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow your Mind, you know where to find 916 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:25,200 Speaker 1: them in the Stuff to Blow your Mind podcast feed 917 00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:27,560 Speaker 1: and you can get that, oh pretty much anywhere wherever 918 00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:31,520 Speaker 1: you get podcasts. You'll find core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. 919 00:53:32,120 --> 00:53:35,600 Speaker 1: We try and slip in an artifact on Wednesdays. Listener 920 00:53:35,640 --> 00:53:39,120 Speaker 1: mails on Monday and Friday. Is weird how cinema? That's 921 00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:44,120 Speaker 1: the uh far less science far less uhum depth. It's 922 00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:46,799 Speaker 1: all about the weird films in those episodes, and then 923 00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,560 Speaker 1: we run a vault episode of rerun over the weekend. 924 00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:52,479 Speaker 1: So however you get the show, if the platform gives 925 00:53:52,480 --> 00:53:54,960 Speaker 1: you the power to do so, just rate, review, and subscribe. 926 00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:58,319 Speaker 1: Huge things as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 927 00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,920 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you like to get in touch with 928 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:03,440 Speaker 1: us with feedback, on this episode or any other, to 929 00:54:03,520 --> 00:54:06,040 Speaker 1: suggest a topic for the future, just to say hello. 930 00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,040 Speaker 1: You can email us at contact and Stuff to Blow 931 00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:19,840 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 932 00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:22,560 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 933 00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,560 Speaker 1: heart Radio, this is the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, 934 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:36,239 Speaker 1: or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.