WEBVTT - The Pageantry Tragedy: Part Two | JonBenet Ramsey 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:07.400 You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:11.160 Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast 0:00:11.320 --> 0:00:14.120 are solely those of the individuals participating in the show 0:00:14.400 --> 0:00:17.560 and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV. 0:00:18.200 --> 0:00:21.280 This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.160 for everyone. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:31.080 Hi, everyone, welcome back. This is Facing Evil from Tenderfoot 0:00:31.120 --> 0:00:35.120 TV and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I am Evech 0:00:35.200 --> 0:00:36.200 and Telay. 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.080 And I'm Rascha Pecerrero. So welcome back to our two 0:00:40.120 --> 0:00:43.479 part episode on the murder of John Benny Ramsey. So 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.479 this is part two, so please make sure that you 0:00:46.560 --> 0:00:48.800 listened to last week's episode if you want to be 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.040 completely caught up, because there is a lot on this case. 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:55.920 And since this is part two, we're just gonna dive 0:00:56.200 --> 0:00:59.840 right back in. So here is a quick refresher. Okay. 0:01:00.360 --> 0:01:03.480 On our last episode, we talked about the Ramsey family 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.160 and how their daughter John Bennet, was active in the 0:01:06.240 --> 0:01:10.000 child beauty pageant scene. We talked about my experience in 0:01:10.040 --> 0:01:13.039 the pageant scene as well. So then we went through 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.360 a detailed account of the night she was killed, about 0:01:16.360 --> 0:01:20.200 how there was a strange handwritten ransom note left behind. 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.479 Yeah, and we also talked about how John Benet how 0:01:23.520 --> 0:01:27.040 she actually was killed, and then we discussed the fallout 0:01:27.160 --> 0:01:30.720 as her parents, John and Patsy became prime suspects in 0:01:30.760 --> 0:01:34.479 her murder, despite appearing on television multiple times to plead 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.320 their innocence and push the idea that the killer was 0:01:37.360 --> 0:01:38.440 actually an intruder. 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:42.360 Lastly, we ended with the announcement of the special Grand 0:01:42.440 --> 0:01:45.840 Jury in nineteen ninety eight, where witness accounts would be 0:01:45.880 --> 0:01:49.560 heard and new evidence revealed. So today we're going to 0:01:49.600 --> 0:01:54.040 talk about what happened at the grand jury. We're also 0:01:54.040 --> 0:01:57.000 going to discuss some of the odd discrepancies in this case, 0:01:57.040 --> 0:02:01.720 and finally we'll explore some common theories as to what 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:07.000 actually happened. So Trevor start us off. What happened at 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:08.760 the grand jury. 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:12.680 So the grand jury officially began on September fifteenth of 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.600 nineteen ninety eight, and it was initiated by Special Prosecutor 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.400 Michael Caine. So, according to the prosecution team, the goal 0:02:21.480 --> 0:02:25.280 of this whole grand jury was to consider inditing the Ramses, 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:29.840 John and Patsy for charges related to the murder. So 0:02:30.040 --> 0:02:33.920 many people have actually noted how Cain called witnesses to 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:39.000 the stand specifically to point the finger or express blame 0:02:39.160 --> 0:02:43.480 towards the Ramsey family. One of those people was Detective 0:02:43.520 --> 0:02:46.320 Linda Art who we've talked about a bunch. She was 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:49.600 one of the first people on the scene who didn't 0:02:49.720 --> 0:02:54.320 do a fantastic job of cordoning off the crime scene. However, 0:02:54.560 --> 0:03:00.200 Detective Arn't was very publicly suspicious of the Ramses. She 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:05.079 has some thoughts about how the Ramseys behaved that was 0:03:05.360 --> 0:03:09.000 potentially condemning them or making it seem like they were 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:12.960 hiding something. So Cain, the prosecutor, also summoned to the 0:03:13.000 --> 0:03:17.120 stand a handwriting expert who believed that Patsy forged the 0:03:17.200 --> 0:03:20.359 ransom note that was found in the house on those stairs. 0:03:20.919 --> 0:03:27.360 So on October thirteenth, forensic evidence, including DNA, hair fibers, 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:30.440 and handwriting was all heard by the grand jury, but 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:32.440 nothing so far as really matching up or pointing in 0:03:32.520 --> 0:03:35.440 any direction. And on December third of nineteen ninety eight, 0:03:35.480 --> 0:03:39.680 investigators even asked for more DNA samples from all of 0:03:39.720 --> 0:03:41.279 the extended Ramsey family. 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:45.000 Right and supposedly the goal was to rule out the 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:47.840 family members that's why they told them they were doing this. 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:50.480 We just want to make sure your DNA doesn't match 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.880 that sort of thing. So, on May nineteenth of nineteen 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:57.120 ninety nine, John Benaye's brother Burke Is officially ruled out 0:03:57.160 --> 0:04:01.160 as a suspect in his sister's murder, and then, finally, 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:05.320 almost after thirteen months of deliberation, the grand jury adjourned 0:04:05.480 --> 0:04:08.520 on October thirteenth of nineteen ninety nine. 0:04:09.160 --> 0:04:12.800 The result, though, was, as I could say, a bit 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:18.279 anti climactic, because the Boulder County District Attorney, Alex Hunter, 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:22.960 ultimately decided not to prosecute the Ramses. He said that 0:04:23.480 --> 0:04:28.599 they did not have enough evidence to prosecute anyone at all. 0:04:28.920 --> 0:04:33.560 Like, huh right, Yeah, And although the grand jury ended 0:04:33.640 --> 0:04:38.960 without any real conclusions, the investigation was still ongoing. So 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:40.760 and so you might think it would have been kind 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:43.520 of smart for the Ramses to maybe keep their head down, 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:44.719 stay out of the spotlight. 0:04:44.960 --> 0:04:45.960 But no. 0:04:46.960 --> 0:04:50.520 In fact, on March seventeenth of two thousand, John and 0:04:50.560 --> 0:04:54.720 Patsy actually published a book called the Death of Innocence. 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.039 It was all about John Benet's murder and how it 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:02.520 impacted them after it release. They were actually sued for 0:05:02.600 --> 0:05:06.640 defamation by two individuals initially named by the Bolder police 0:05:07.080 --> 0:05:10.480 as suspects, but those cases, I guess were later dropped. 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:14.480 Yeah, and then you have to remember that this entire time, 0:05:14.800 --> 0:05:19.440 Patsy was still battling cancer and in the last episode 0:05:19.480 --> 0:05:22.200 we mentioned how she was diagnosed in nineteen ninety three 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:26.799 with ovarian cancer. And sadly, I mean, it came back 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.719 on June twenty fourth of two thousand and six and 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:36.359 Patsy Ramsey she ultimately died from the cancer and she 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:40.680 was laid to rest next to John Benay in Marietta, Georgia. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:46.680 So can you imagine John now has his older daughter Elizabeth, 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.200 he has his younger daughter, John Benay, and now his 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:51.559 wife that are gone. 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:53.880 Yeah, sad, so sad. 0:05:55.400 --> 0:06:00.520 Well, later that year, something kind of weird happened. Strange 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:05.000 suspect came forward. On August sixteenth of two thousand and six, 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.640 a person from Georgia named Alexis Valerin Reich, formerly known 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.919 as John Mark Carr, was arrested in Thailand. So, just 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:16.920 as a quick disclaimer, Reich is a transwoman. But at 0:06:16.920 --> 0:06:19.080 the time of this incident that all of this was 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:23.039 going down, they were presenting as a man. So Reich 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.280 was a former school teacher that had moved to Thailand 0:06:26.680 --> 0:06:30.880 supposedly to avoid being charged with possession of child pornography 0:06:30.960 --> 0:06:35.800 in the United States. And apparently Reich had made a 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.520 bizarre confession where she claimed she was in fact John 0:06:39.560 --> 0:06:43.880 Benet's killer and described the strangulation in very graphic, very 0:06:43.920 --> 0:06:48.960 sexual detail. So, according to NBC, she told reporters, quote, 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:52.320 I was with John Benay when she died. Her death 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:56.280 was an accident end quote. And then when asked if 0:06:56.320 --> 0:07:00.760 she was innocent of the crime, Reike said no. However, 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:05.200 it was very quickly discovered that the confession was entirely false. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:10.680 DNA tests ruled Reich out almost immediately, and then Reike's 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.880 family actually provided very strong evidence that Reike was with 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:17.679 them in Georgia at the time of John Benney's murder 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.080 in Colorado, so like thousands of miles away. So I 0:07:22.120 --> 0:07:25.120 don't know what happened here. I guess this was just 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.600 a person who was very obsessed with the case, maybe 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:31.080 wanted some time in the spotlight, or. 0:07:31.080 --> 0:07:35.200 Mentally not well or yeah, well, definitely, we know that 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:39.680 has to be one of the main factors, right or 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.320 somebody trying to take credit for a murder right and 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:51.720 describing it in graphic detail like it's super super disturbing. Finally, 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.440 in July of two thousand and eight, the Ramsey family 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:59.640 members are officially cleared as suspects in John Benney's murder 0:07:59.680 --> 0:08:03.600 thanks DNA testing. And I didn't know that fact until 0:08:03.600 --> 0:08:06.120 I was doing research for this podcast, Like the DA 0:08:06.200 --> 0:08:09.120 even apologized to the entire Ramsey family, And that was 0:08:09.160 --> 0:08:10.480 all the way back in two thousand and eight, and 0:08:10.520 --> 0:08:14.480 we're in twenty twenty two right now. In that same report, 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:18.240 police said that they had actually identified some third parties 0:08:18.400 --> 0:08:23.400 DNA on John Benny's actual panties and if they could 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:28.880 actually match that DNA, that would be incredibly strong evidence. 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.640 But they have yet to do that. 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:34.520 That was again, all the way back in two thousand 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:39.360 and eight, and sadly that more or less concludes the 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:43.319 official investigation of the murder of John Benny Ramsey. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:47.040 Yeah, but there's I mean, there's still a ton more 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:51.200 to discuss here, because, like we said, people online have 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:56.800 absolutely broken this case down like bit by bit by 0:08:57.000 --> 0:09:00.280 peace by piece, I mean, and there are tons of 0:09:00.360 --> 0:09:05.640 theories and discrepancies that change everything and it's constantly, right, 0:09:05.760 --> 0:09:06.760 constantly change. 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:09.160 Started in those chat rooms back in the nineties, right, 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:10.280 like Trevor Sacly. 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.680 Yeah, So buckle up, y'all. This case is about to 0:09:14.720 --> 0:09:15.760 get wild. 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:18.520 And we will dig into all of that right after 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:19.800 we take a quick break. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:29.480 So this case is full of wild discrepancies, things that 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:33.280 absolutely do not add up, and that has led to 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:37.240 a huge number of theories and suspects. Let's start with 0:09:37.320 --> 0:09:41.280 the discrepancies first. That nine to one one call, the 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:44.000 first call to the police placed by Patsy Ramsey on 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.720 the morning of December twenty sixth, has become a big 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:49.559 point of contention. The nine to one one operator has 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:53.000 actually said that Patsy's tone at the time seemed rehearsed, 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:57.560 and some believe that her panic seemed staged. There's also 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.280 the weird issue with Burke and the phone call and 0:10:00.320 --> 0:10:03.640 hearing Burke in the background, because John and Patsy actually 0:10:03.640 --> 0:10:06.160 claimed that he was still asleep, so why would we 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.600 be hearing Burke's voice on that enhanced nine one one call? 0:10:10.600 --> 0:10:12.600 And Burke being awake points to. 0:10:12.520 --> 0:10:16.160 The possibility that he was actually more involved in the 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.880 situation than the family had claimed, and honestly, you know, 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:22.440 in my opinion, I think all these years that's what 0:10:22.480 --> 0:10:26.080 I thought had happened. I personally thought that maybe Burke 0:10:26.160 --> 0:10:30.720 had accidentally killed his sister and the parents were desperately 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:31.680 trying to protect him. 0:10:32.960 --> 0:10:36.480 Okay, So next up is that famous ransom note. You 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:38.920 do remember it, right? It was found on the stairs 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:43.280 that morning, and many believe that there was something fishy there. 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:45.400 I mean, first of all, as we know, it was 0:10:45.440 --> 0:10:49.880 written on paper from Patsy's personal stationery and with a 0:10:49.960 --> 0:10:54.080 pin from inside the Ramsays home. And it was also 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.800 filled with a ton of strange language choices that can 0:10:58.840 --> 0:11:02.000 I just say no by he really understands what the 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:03.079 hell it means. 0:11:03.520 --> 0:11:06.400 Yeah, and for context, I will read a few choice 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:11.200 excerpts that I pulled. Here's the first one. Quote listen 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:14.160 carefully with an exclamation mark. We are a group of 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:18.679 individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We in redacted 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:21.920 respect your business, but not the country that serves it. 0:11:22.320 --> 0:11:25.160 End quote, which kind of I guess implies that this 0:11:25.200 --> 0:11:27.600 is some sort of like foreign terrorist group. 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.640 Oh, okay, share, I'm not sure. 0:11:32.080 --> 0:11:36.040 Here's another one quote, don't try to grow a brain, John, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.520 You are not the only fat cat around. So don't 0:11:39.559 --> 0:11:43.439 think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John, 0:11:44.040 --> 0:11:46.920 use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is 0:11:47.040 --> 0:11:50.560 up to you now, John end quote. So again, this 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.839 is weird. It's like somehow they're implying that they have 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.320 some agenda, you know, that's like about the country, but 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:00.520 then they somehow also know John personally and getting that 0:12:00.600 --> 0:12:03.520 detail away. To me, this feels fake, is the only 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.000 thing I'll say about this. Well, I know we're going 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.480 to talk about some of the popular theories in a minute, 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:11.360 but my main takeaway reading this note is this all 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:15.040 feels like inconsistent and made up by somebody. 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:16.800 This is my thought, right. 0:12:18.559 --> 0:12:23.199 It's also suspicious that the ransom amount that they demanded 0:12:23.760 --> 0:12:26.440 was one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, which is the 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.840 exact amount that John had just recently received for his 0:12:29.960 --> 0:12:34.520 Christmas bonus. And since John Binney was sadly most likely 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:36.840 dead by the time that this ransom note was written, 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:41.520 the whole thing makes it look like the parents were 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.280 involved in the murder and they were just attempting to write, 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:48.240 like Trevor said, a fake ransom letter to divert attention 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:52.400 away from themselves. So yes, I think that that's plausible, 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.959 especially when you realize that the ransom was never really 0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:57.200 brought up, like. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:12:59.560 While they were searching for Jumpine. No, they don't even 0:12:59.600 --> 0:13:00.000 talk about it. 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:03.200 And maybe it's because one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars 0:13:03.280 --> 0:13:05.800 isn't that much money to them. I mean, I don't know, 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.200 but John never bothered to talk about the money, addressed 0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.000 it in any way, or even talk about these kidnappers. 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.199 It was almost completely ignored and dropped. 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:18.440 Yeah. I mean my instinct if like I had learned that, 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.560 you know, my child or loved one had been kidnapped 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:23.719 by somebody and was holding them ransom, would be to 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:26.120 like communicate with them, like get them back, you know, 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.679 but that like has never brought up. Instead, they're like, well, 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:32.280 we got to search the house for John Benet, right right, right? 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.360 If they know she's in the house somehow that like 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:37.040 she hasn't been kidnapped somewhere else. 0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:37.679 Right yeah right? 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:39.920 Yeah, Because see when you think about that, like the 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.120 first thing would come to mind is get the money, right, 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:44.800 go get the money that they asked for. 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:45.720 Yeah. 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:49.880 Okay, so there's so many weird things, but I promise 0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:53.160 this is the last one, but it's not. As we know, 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:57.120 there was some crime scene contamination when they found John Benet. 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:01.479 We of course have no idea whether that was intentional 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:06.760 or not, but any possible evidence we could have gotten 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:10.160 from the house on that particular day or the body, 0:14:11.000 --> 0:14:15.160 we know it was ruined after the cops arrived. So Trevor, 0:14:15.200 --> 0:14:17.560 please remind us of what happened. 0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:22.200 Yeah, so, pretty much from the moment that cops walk 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.480 into the house, a number of things go wrong. One 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.960 of those is that guests arrive at the Ramsey house. 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:33.880 You remember fleet White and his wife arrived shortly thereafter, 0:14:33.920 --> 0:14:36.880 and police let them in. So that was a failure 0:14:36.920 --> 0:14:39.320 to cordon off the crime scene. They just were letting 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.800 people kind of come, which is bad. And then of 0:14:43.840 --> 0:14:47.280 course they allowed the family members to search the house 0:14:47.320 --> 0:14:52.280 with them, right, so they assigned John and fleet White 0:14:52.320 --> 0:14:55.880 the task of searching the house and touching things and 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:59.080 looking for the body. And the result of this is 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.960 that John finds the body. Even though police couldn't find 0:15:02.000 --> 0:15:05.600 the body, he picks it up, so he touches the body, 0:15:05.640 --> 0:15:08.840 he rips off the duct tape. Police never even investigate 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.120 the spot where her body is found or if they 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.560 investigate it, they don't investigate it in the way it 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:15.120 was when she was like found dead. 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:15.840 Does that makes sense? 0:15:15.920 --> 0:15:17.120 Yeah, yes, it was moved. 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:18.800 We have no idea what that crime scene actually even 0:15:18.840 --> 0:15:21.800 looked like because John messed with it and we just 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:24.600 kind of took his word for it. So finally they 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.640 let Patsy also touched the body when she was brought 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:31.840 into the living room, and so maybe we could have 0:15:31.920 --> 0:15:36.200 learned that Patsy's fingerprints or DNA were on John Benny's 0:15:36.200 --> 0:15:39.080 body before that point, in which case that would have 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.720 told us something. But because you know, we know that 0:15:41.760 --> 0:15:45.600 she touched her when she was grieving, supposedly, you know, 0:15:45.720 --> 0:15:48.680 it's impossible to identify whether that DNA or fingerprints were 0:15:49.200 --> 0:15:51.840 from that, you know, occasion or from a different occasion 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.800 from before when the police arrived. So again we have nothing. 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.080 Yeah, we yeah, exactly, we have nothing. I mean, and 0:15:58.160 --> 0:16:02.160 I just go back to that first police officer, Linda 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:06.080 Aren't like she let them just like you said, you know, 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:09.240 go look for the body. Like that just doesn't sit 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:09.880 right with me. 0:16:11.120 --> 0:16:14.640 So with all of that in mind, in the contaminated 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:18.840 crime scene, let's talk about the different theories that are 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:21.920 floating around, because as we have discussed, there are many 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.280 and they're a little wild. But of course one that 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.800 we do need to talk about, which like y'vett originally thought, 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.480 you know, that Patsy was the killer. So a lot 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:36.240 of people believe that it was John Benay's mom. According 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:40.520 to Rolling Stone, some believe that, while you know, cleaning 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:43.840 up one of John Benet's bed wedding incidents, that Patsy 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.680 got crazy, angry and slammed John Benet's little head against 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.520 the side of some hard, blunt surface, like maybe a 0:16:50.560 --> 0:16:54.600 bathtub or the bed frame. So another thing to support 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.840 the idea of Patsy killing John Benet was that she 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:02.800 was at least partially killed by a garrot, which is 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:06.359 like a wire used for strangulation, and that handle was 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.520 determined to have been made from one of Patsy's paintbrushes. 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:13.240 So the last thing is that the ransom note again 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:17.680 was written on Patsy's stationary, and that initially her handwriting 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:20.480 was not ruled out when they were comparing it with 0:17:20.520 --> 0:17:23.320 the note. So those are kind of the few big 0:17:23.320 --> 0:17:26.480 things that point to Patsy being being the killer. 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.439 Yeah, I mean, and again, I go back to I 0:17:29.520 --> 0:17:33.240 thought from the very beginning, like that was my first impression, 0:17:33.359 --> 0:17:38.320 is that Patsy was this obsessed, you know, pageant mom 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:42.440 who you know, or maybe her daughter wasn't performing the 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:44.240 way that she wanted her to perform. I don't know. 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:47.760 And then watching Patsy on television, like they're just she 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:49.840 didn't seem like she was all there, So I thought, Okay, 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:54.399 well that's plausible she could possibly have flipped out and 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.840 done this. I don't know, what do you guys think? 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.960 It seems like a bit of a weird horror story situation, right, 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.080 like this obsessed mom like taking her you know, anger 0:18:06.119 --> 0:18:08.840 out on her daughter and killing her. It reminds me 0:18:08.880 --> 0:18:12.520 of a movie by a Sotoshi Cone called Perfect Blue. 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.800 Have you've ever seen that? So? Perfect Blue is about 0:18:16.800 --> 0:18:21.600 a pop star musician in Japan. It's an animated film, 0:18:21.760 --> 0:18:24.040 and the whole idea is that as a pop star 0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.320 with a lot of visibility and like fame, she has 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:29.680 like all these like kind of like creepy stalkers who 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.679 and so the movie like is making you think that, 0:18:32.320 --> 0:18:34.080 you know, they are these creepy stalker people had to 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:36.720 like kill her or harm her in some way, and 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:38.880 then you realize at the end, like the person who's 0:18:38.920 --> 0:18:41.520 most trying to harm her, her mom, is like her, 0:18:41.640 --> 0:18:43.640 not her mom, but her agent, who is also like an. 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:46.679 Order like close person close to her. 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:51.680 Yeah, it was kind of like the story of Selena. Also, yeah, 0:18:51.680 --> 0:18:53.600 if you know about that, right, it's like this other 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.520 woman who's older, who is like very envious, ended up 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:58.200 being like the most danger. 0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.440 To her, right, Yeah, that's true in pop movies like Bodyguard, 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:06.439 right when Whitney Houston is this famous superstar, remember, and 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:10.159 then the killer ends up being her sister, the one 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.159 who's sending the ransom notes and stuff like that. 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:15.439 So yeah, I can't imagine that it's Patsy. 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:18.199 I mean, like, well, of course, you know, may she 0:19:18.280 --> 0:19:20.960 rest in peace, says she's not alive to defend herself. 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:25.160 But I can't see a mother harming a child. But 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.120 you know, sadly, we do know that it happens. 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:31.840 But well, there are more theories, so yeah, oh, let's more. 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:39.160 Sorry, Okay, there's this theory. So the dad, John Ramsey, 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.159 was responsible. So this is the other theory, right, and 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.919 this is because, as we said earlier, he was the 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:51.360 one who found the body before the investigators did. And 0:19:51.720 --> 0:19:54.480 the thing about this is nobody saw him find the body. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:57.560 He just said that he found her and he brought 0:19:57.560 --> 0:20:01.119 her upstairs. And like you said earlier, right, Trevor, he 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.240 took the duct tape off of her mouth as well, 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:09.080 So all that evidence is gone because he's already touched it, right. 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:14.600 So the theory is maybe he already knew where John 0:20:14.640 --> 0:20:19.120 Bennet was and the whole discovery was just an act. 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:23.040 Very possible. I mean, the police officer wasn't able to 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:26.560 find them. They spent hours searching and never found her. 0:20:26.760 --> 0:20:29.640 So the fact that he John was able to find 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:32.520 her so quickly is certainly suspicious. 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:37.240 Yeah again, Devil's Advocate. It was a fifteen room house 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:40.280 and really large too, So maybe he just got lucky. 0:20:40.400 --> 0:20:40.840 I don't know. 0:20:41.000 --> 0:20:42.879 I don't know if you get lucky in your own house. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.640 But okay, yeah, yeah, I mean there was one other 0:20:47.119 --> 0:20:48.879 piece of I guess you can call it evidence that 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:52.040 pointed to John. Really, this is just a theory that 0:20:52.040 --> 0:20:54.800 people have talked about online. So if you remember, John 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:59.720 Benay was found with vaginal ligatures, so many people put 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:04.920 forth this idea that John was you know, somehow sexually 0:21:05.000 --> 0:21:08.240 abusing John Benney his daughter and that that's where that 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:11.119 came from, and that like maybe this was a night 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:13.280 where he was like creeping into his daughter's room to 0:21:13.359 --> 0:21:16.720 do this and something went wrong and he killed her. Yeah, 0:21:16.760 --> 0:21:19.879 it's a theory online, right, that one I'm skeptical of 0:21:20.400 --> 0:21:22.320 and certainly don't want to ever accuse anyone of that 0:21:22.359 --> 0:21:24.639 without any proof. And that's the thing, there was no 0:21:24.760 --> 0:21:28.360 real proof of this theory. The family vehemently denied it, 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:33.040 and they even said publicly, quote, there is no history 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:37.120 of sexual assault. A person doesn't just go throughout their 0:21:37.160 --> 0:21:39.520 lives as a normal human being and then one night 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:42.840 turn into a monster, slaughter their daughter, go to bed, 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:45.800 get up and act normal from there on. That doesn't 0:21:45.840 --> 0:21:49.439 happen end quote. And I mean, I don't know if 0:21:49.640 --> 0:21:52.920 that actually did happen. That's horrible, but it sounds really 0:21:53.359 --> 0:21:56.080 weird to me. I mean, I think there's some truth 0:21:56.160 --> 0:21:58.600 to that quote, right, Like, there's really no history of 0:21:58.640 --> 0:21:59.960 this and there's nothing else to bet. 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:04.920 Yeah, and normally abusers have a pattern and a history 0:22:05.080 --> 0:22:07.600 and a Yeah, it doesn't just come out of nowhere 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.040 and then go away again. 0:22:09.359 --> 0:22:13.080 Yeah, and he was for some reason for me, he 0:22:13.280 --> 0:22:14.920 was not at the top of my list. 0:22:16.560 --> 0:22:22.280 Yeah, and he's very active today in talking about John Benney, 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.040 like he goes to crime con he I believe, he's written, 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:28.679 you know, other books and he's he just seems so 0:22:28.800 --> 0:22:33.480 authentic and so real and so devastated by everything that's 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:38.040 happened to his family. And sadly, no matter what happens, 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:41.439 people are always going to think that possibly that he 0:22:41.760 --> 0:22:42.639 or Patsy did it. 0:22:43.040 --> 0:22:46.879 Well, that's the thing. And you know, I love Elizabeth 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:49.760 Vargas and there's a special that she did and it's 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:53.879 called Hunting John Benney's Killer. And there's many things that 0:22:53.880 --> 0:22:56.440 they talk about in this, but one of the things 0:22:56.440 --> 0:22:59.000 that was that stood out to me is John Ramsey 0:22:59.080 --> 0:23:03.240 said that if they did find the killer, right all 0:23:03.280 --> 0:23:06.200 these years later, they found the DNA of who killed 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:12.399 John Beney, still twenty percent of society would still put 0:23:12.440 --> 0:23:14.840 the blame on the Ramsey family. 0:23:15.200 --> 0:23:15.840 Yeah. 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:19.960 So another huge theory out there is that her brother Burke, 0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:23.639