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Speaker 1: You're listening to Facing Evil, a production of iHeartRadio and

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Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV. The views and opinions expressed in this podcast

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Speaker 1: are solely those of the individuals participating in the show

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Speaker 1: and do not represent those of iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV.

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Speaker 1: This podcast contains subject matter which may not be suitable

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Speaker 1: for everyone. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Hi, everyone, welcome back. This is Facing Evil from Tenderfoot

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Speaker 2: TV and iHeartRadio. We are your host. I am Evech

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Speaker 2: and Telay.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Rascha Pecerrero. So welcome back to our two

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Speaker 3: part episode on the murder of John Benny Ramsey. So

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Speaker 3: this is part two, so please make sure that you

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Speaker 3: listened to last week's episode if you want to be

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Speaker 3: completely caught up, because there is a lot on this case.

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Speaker 2: And since this is part two, we're just gonna dive

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Speaker 2: right back in. So here is a quick refresher. Okay.

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Speaker 2: On our last episode, we talked about the Ramsey family

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Speaker 2: and how their daughter John Bennet, was active in the

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Speaker 2: child beauty pageant scene. We talked about my experience in

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Speaker 2: the pageant scene as well. So then we went through

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Speaker 2: a detailed account of the night she was killed, about

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Speaker 2: how there was a strange handwritten ransom note left behind.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and we also talked about how John Benet how

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Speaker 3: she actually was killed, and then we discussed the fallout

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Speaker 3: as her parents, John and Patsy became prime suspects in

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Speaker 3: her murder, despite appearing on television multiple times to plead

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Speaker 3: their innocence and push the idea that the killer was

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Speaker 3: actually an intruder.

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Speaker 2: Lastly, we ended with the announcement of the special Grand

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Speaker 2: Jury in nineteen ninety eight, where witness accounts would be

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Speaker 2: heard and new evidence revealed. So today we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about what happened at the grand jury. We're also

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Speaker 2: going to discuss some of the odd discrepancies in this case,

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Speaker 2: and finally we'll explore some common theories as to what

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Speaker 2: actually happened. So Trevor start us off. What happened at

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Speaker 2: the grand jury.

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Speaker 1: So the grand jury officially began on September fifteenth of

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight, and it was initiated by Special Prosecutor

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Speaker 1: Michael Caine. So, according to the prosecution team, the goal

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Speaker 1: of this whole grand jury was to consider inditing the Ramses,

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Speaker 1: John and Patsy for charges related to the murder. So

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Speaker 1: many people have actually noted how Cain called witnesses to

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Speaker 1: the stand specifically to point the finger or express blame

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Speaker 1: towards the Ramsey family. One of those people was Detective

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Speaker 1: Linda Art who we've talked about a bunch. She was

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Speaker 1: one of the first people on the scene who didn't

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Speaker 1: do a fantastic job of cordoning off the crime scene. However,

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Speaker 1: Detective Arn't was very publicly suspicious of the Ramses. She

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Speaker 1: has some thoughts about how the Ramseys behaved that was

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Speaker 1: potentially condemning them or making it seem like they were

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Speaker 1: hiding something. So Cain, the prosecutor, also summoned to the

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Speaker 1: stand a handwriting expert who believed that Patsy forged the

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Speaker 1: ransom note that was found in the house on those stairs.

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Speaker 3: So on October thirteenth, forensic evidence, including DNA, hair fibers,

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Speaker 3: and handwriting was all heard by the grand jury, but

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Speaker 3: nothing so far as really matching up or pointing in

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Speaker 3: any direction. And on December third of nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 3: investigators even asked for more DNA samples from all of

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Speaker 3: the extended Ramsey family.

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Speaker 1: Right and supposedly the goal was to rule out the

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Speaker 1: family members that's why they told them they were doing this.

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Speaker 1: We just want to make sure your DNA doesn't match

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. So, on May nineteenth of nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety nine, John Benaye's brother Burke Is officially ruled out

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Speaker 1: as a suspect in his sister's murder, and then, finally,

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Speaker 1: almost after thirteen months of deliberation, the grand jury adjourned

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Speaker 1: on October thirteenth of nineteen ninety nine.

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Speaker 2: The result, though, was, as I could say, a bit

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Speaker 2: anti climactic, because the Boulder County District Attorney, Alex Hunter,

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Speaker 2: ultimately decided not to prosecute the Ramses. He said that

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Speaker 2: they did not have enough evidence to prosecute anyone at all.

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Speaker 3: Like, huh right, Yeah, And although the grand jury ended

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Speaker 3: without any real conclusions, the investigation was still ongoing. So

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Speaker 3: and so you might think it would have been kind

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Speaker 3: of smart for the Ramses to maybe keep their head down,

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Speaker 3: stay out of the spotlight.

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Speaker 2: But no.

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Speaker 3: In fact, on March seventeenth of two thousand, John and

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Speaker 3: Patsy actually published a book called the Death of Innocence.

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Speaker 3: It was all about John Benet's murder and how it

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Speaker 3: impacted them after it release. They were actually sued for

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Speaker 3: defamation by two individuals initially named by the Bolder police

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Speaker 3: as suspects, but those cases, I guess were later dropped.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you have to remember that this entire time,

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Speaker 2: Patsy was still battling cancer and in the last episode

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Speaker 2: we mentioned how she was diagnosed in nineteen ninety three

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Speaker 2: with ovarian cancer. And sadly, I mean, it came back

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Speaker 2: on June twenty fourth of two thousand and six and

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Speaker 2: Patsy Ramsey she ultimately died from the cancer and she

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Speaker 2: was laid to rest next to John Benay in Marietta, Georgia.

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Speaker 2: So can you imagine John now has his older daughter Elizabeth,

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Speaker 2: he has his younger daughter, John Benay, and now his

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Speaker 2: wife that are gone.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, sad, so sad.

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Speaker 1: Well, later that year, something kind of weird happened. Strange

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Speaker 1: suspect came forward. On August sixteenth of two thousand and six,

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Speaker 1: a person from Georgia named Alexis Valerin Reich, formerly known

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Speaker 1: as John Mark Carr, was arrested in Thailand. So, just

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Speaker 1: as a quick disclaimer, Reich is a transwoman. But at

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Speaker 1: the time of this incident that all of this was

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Speaker 1: going down, they were presenting as a man. So Reich

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Speaker 1: was a former school teacher that had moved to Thailand

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Speaker 1: supposedly to avoid being charged with possession of child pornography

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Speaker 1: in the United States. And apparently Reich had made a

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Speaker 1: bizarre confession where she claimed she was in fact John

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Speaker 1: Benet's killer and described the strangulation in very graphic, very

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Speaker 1: sexual detail. So, according to NBC, she told reporters, quote,

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Speaker 1: I was with John Benay when she died. Her death

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Speaker 1: was an accident end quote. And then when asked if

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Speaker 1: she was innocent of the crime, Reike said no. However,

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Speaker 1: it was very quickly discovered that the confession was entirely false.

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Speaker 1: DNA tests ruled Reich out almost immediately, and then Reike's

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Speaker 1: family actually provided very strong evidence that Reike was with

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Speaker 1: them in Georgia at the time of John Benney's murder

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Speaker 1: in Colorado, so like thousands of miles away. So I

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Speaker 1: don't know what happened here. I guess this was just

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Speaker 1: a person who was very obsessed with the case, maybe

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Speaker 1: wanted some time in the spotlight, or.

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Speaker 2: Mentally not well or yeah, well, definitely, we know that

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Speaker 2: has to be one of the main factors, right or

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Speaker 2: somebody trying to take credit for a murder right and

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Speaker 2: describing it in graphic detail like it's super super disturbing. Finally,

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Speaker 2: in July of two thousand and eight, the Ramsey family

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Speaker 2: members are officially cleared as suspects in John Benney's murder

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Speaker 2: thanks DNA testing. And I didn't know that fact until

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Speaker 2: I was doing research for this podcast, Like the DA

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Speaker 2: even apologized to the entire Ramsey family, And that was

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Speaker 2: all the way back in two thousand and eight, and

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Speaker 2: we're in twenty twenty two right now. In that same report,

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Speaker 2: police said that they had actually identified some third parties

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Speaker 2: DNA on John Benny's actual panties and if they could

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Speaker 2: actually match that DNA, that would be incredibly strong evidence.

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Speaker 4: But they have yet to do that.

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Speaker 3: That was again, all the way back in two thousand

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Speaker 3: and eight, and sadly that more or less concludes the

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Speaker 3: official investigation of the murder of John Benny Ramsey.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but there's I mean, there's still a ton more

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Speaker 2: to discuss here, because, like we said, people online have

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Speaker 2: absolutely broken this case down like bit by bit by

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Speaker 2: peace by piece, I mean, and there are tons of

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Speaker 2: theories and discrepancies that change everything and it's constantly, right,

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Speaker 2: constantly change.

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Speaker 3: Started in those chat rooms back in the nineties, right,

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Speaker 3: like Trevor Sacly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So buckle up, y'all. This case is about to

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Speaker 2: get wild.

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Speaker 1: And we will dig into all of that right after

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Speaker 1: we take a quick break.

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Speaker 3: So this case is full of wild discrepancies, things that

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Speaker 3: absolutely do not add up, and that has led to

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Speaker 3: a huge number of theories and suspects. Let's start with

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Speaker 3: the discrepancies first. That nine to one one call, the

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Speaker 3: first call to the police placed by Patsy Ramsey on

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Speaker 3: the morning of December twenty sixth, has become a big

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Speaker 3: point of contention. The nine to one one operator has

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Speaker 3: actually said that Patsy's tone at the time seemed rehearsed,

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Speaker 3: and some believe that her panic seemed staged. There's also

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Speaker 3: the weird issue with Burke and the phone call and

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Speaker 3: hearing Burke in the background, because John and Patsy actually

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Speaker 3: claimed that he was still asleep, so why would we

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Speaker 3: be hearing Burke's voice on that enhanced nine one one call?

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Speaker 4: And Burke being awake points to.

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Speaker 3: The possibility that he was actually more involved in the

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Speaker 3: situation than the family had claimed, and honestly, you know,

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Speaker 3: in my opinion, I think all these years that's what

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Speaker 3: I thought had happened. I personally thought that maybe Burke

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Speaker 3: had accidentally killed his sister and the parents were desperately

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Speaker 3: trying to protect him.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So next up is that famous ransom note. You

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Speaker 2: do remember it, right? It was found on the stairs

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Speaker 2: that morning, and many believe that there was something fishy there.

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Speaker 2: I mean, first of all, as we know, it was

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Speaker 2: written on paper from Patsy's personal stationery and with a

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Speaker 2: pin from inside the Ramsays home. And it was also

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Speaker 2: filled with a ton of strange language choices that can

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Speaker 2: I just say no by he really understands what the

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Speaker 2: hell it means.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for context, I will read a few choice

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Speaker 1: excerpts that I pulled. Here's the first one. Quote listen

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Speaker 1: carefully with an exclamation mark. We are a group of

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Speaker 1: individuals that represent a small foreign faction. We in redacted

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Speaker 1: respect your business, but not the country that serves it.

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Speaker 1: End quote, which kind of I guess implies that this

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Speaker 1: is some sort of like foreign terrorist group.

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Speaker 3: Oh, okay, share, I'm not sure.

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Speaker 1: Here's another one quote, don't try to grow a brain, John,

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Speaker 1: You are not the only fat cat around. So don't

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Speaker 1: think that killing will be difficult. Don't underestimate us, John,

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Speaker 1: use that good Southern common sense of yours. It is

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Speaker 1: up to you now, John end quote. So again, this

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Speaker 1: is weird. It's like somehow they're implying that they have

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Speaker 1: some agenda, you know, that's like about the country, but

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Speaker 1: then they somehow also know John personally and getting that

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Speaker 1: detail away. To me, this feels fake, is the only

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Speaker 1: thing I'll say about this. Well, I know we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk about some of the popular theories in a minute,

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Speaker 1: but my main takeaway reading this note is this all

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Speaker 1: feels like inconsistent and made up by somebody.

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Speaker 2: This is my thought, right.

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Speaker 3: It's also suspicious that the ransom amount that they demanded

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Speaker 3: was one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars, which is the

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Speaker 3: exact amount that John had just recently received for his

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Speaker 3: Christmas bonus. And since John Binney was sadly most likely

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Speaker 3: dead by the time that this ransom note was written,

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Speaker 3: the whole thing makes it look like the parents were

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Speaker 3: involved in the murder and they were just attempting to write,

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Speaker 3: like Trevor said, a fake ransom letter to divert attention

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Speaker 3: away from themselves. So yes, I think that that's plausible,

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Speaker 3: especially when you realize that the ransom was never really

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Speaker 3: brought up, like.

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Speaker 4: While they were searching for Jumpine. No, they don't even

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Speaker 4: talk about it.

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Speaker 3: And maybe it's because one hundred and eighteen thousand dollars

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Speaker 3: isn't that much money to them. I mean, I don't know,

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Speaker 3: but John never bothered to talk about the money, addressed

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Speaker 3: it in any way, or even talk about these kidnappers.

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Speaker 3: It was almost completely ignored and dropped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean my instinct if like I had learned that,

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Speaker 1: you know, my child or loved one had been kidnapped

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Speaker 1: by somebody and was holding them ransom, would be to

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Speaker 1: like communicate with them, like get them back, you know,

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Speaker 1: but that like has never brought up. Instead, they're like, well,

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Speaker 1: we got to search the house for John Benet, right right, right?

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Speaker 1: If they know she's in the house somehow that like

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Speaker 1: she hasn't been kidnapped somewhere else.

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Speaker 3: Right yeah right?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Because see when you think about that, like the

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Speaker 2: first thing would come to mind is get the money, right,

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Speaker 2: go get the money that they asked for.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so there's so many weird things, but I promise

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Speaker 2: this is the last one, but it's not. As we know,

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Speaker 2: there was some crime scene contamination when they found John Benet.

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Speaker 2: We of course have no idea whether that was intentional

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Speaker 2: or not, but any possible evidence we could have gotten

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Speaker 2: from the house on that particular day or the body,

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Speaker 2: we know it was ruined after the cops arrived. So Trevor,

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Speaker 2: please remind us of what happened.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so, pretty much from the moment that cops walk

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Speaker 1: into the house, a number of things go wrong. One

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Speaker 1: of those is that guests arrive at the Ramsey house.

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Speaker 1: You remember fleet White and his wife arrived shortly thereafter,

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Speaker 1: and police let them in. So that was a failure

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Speaker 1: to cordon off the crime scene. They just were letting

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Speaker 1: people kind of come, which is bad. And then of

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Speaker 1: course they allowed the family members to search the house

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Speaker 1: with them, right, so they assigned John and fleet White

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Speaker 1: the task of searching the house and touching things and

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Speaker 1: looking for the body. And the result of this is

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Speaker 1: that John finds the body. Even though police couldn't find

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Speaker 1: the body, he picks it up, so he touches the body,

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Speaker 1: he rips off the duct tape. Police never even investigate

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Speaker 1: the spot where her body is found or if they

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Speaker 1: investigate it, they don't investigate it in the way it

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Speaker 1: was when she was like found dead.

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Speaker 2: Does that makes sense?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yes, it was moved.

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Speaker 1: We have no idea what that crime scene actually even

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Speaker 1: looked like because John messed with it and we just

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Speaker 1: kind of took his word for it. So finally they

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Speaker 1: let Patsy also touched the body when she was brought

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Speaker 1: into the living room, and so maybe we could have

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Speaker 1: learned that Patsy's fingerprints or DNA were on John Benny's

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Speaker 1: body before that point, in which case that would have

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Speaker 1: told us something. But because you know, we know that

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Speaker 1: she touched her when she was grieving, supposedly, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's impossible to identify whether that DNA or fingerprints were

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Speaker 1: from that, you know, occasion or from a different occasion

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Speaker 1: from before when the police arrived. So again we have nothing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we yeah, exactly, we have nothing. I mean, and

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Speaker 2: I just go back to that first police officer, Linda

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Speaker 2: Aren't like she let them just like you said, you know,

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Speaker 2: go look for the body. Like that just doesn't sit

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Speaker 2: right with me.

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Speaker 3: So with all of that in mind, in the contaminated

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Speaker 3: crime scene, let's talk about the different theories that are

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Speaker 3: floating around, because as we have discussed, there are many

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Speaker 3: and they're a little wild. But of course one that

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Speaker 3: we do need to talk about, which like y'vett originally thought,

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Speaker 3: you know, that Patsy was the killer. So a lot

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Speaker 3: of people believe that it was John Benay's mom. According

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Speaker 3: to Rolling Stone, some believe that, while you know, cleaning

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Speaker 3: up one of John Benet's bed wedding incidents, that Patsy

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Speaker 3: got crazy, angry and slammed John Benet's little head against

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Speaker 3: the side of some hard, blunt surface, like maybe a

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Speaker 3: bathtub or the bed frame. So another thing to support

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Speaker 3: the idea of Patsy killing John Benet was that she

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Speaker 3: was at least partially killed by a garrot, which is

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Speaker 3: like a wire used for strangulation, and that handle was

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Speaker 3: determined to have been made from one of Patsy's paintbrushes.

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Speaker 3: So the last thing is that the ransom note again

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Speaker 3: was written on Patsy's stationary, and that initially her handwriting

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Speaker 3: was not ruled out when they were comparing it with

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Speaker 3: the note. So those are kind of the few big

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Speaker 3: things that point to Patsy being being the killer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, and again, I go back to I

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Speaker 2: thought from the very beginning, like that was my first impression,

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Speaker 2: is that Patsy was this obsessed, you know, pageant mom

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Speaker 2: who you know, or maybe her daughter wasn't performing the

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Speaker 2: way that she wanted her to perform. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And then watching Patsy on television, like they're just she

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Speaker 2: didn't seem like she was all there, So I thought, Okay,

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Speaker 2: well that's plausible she could possibly have flipped out and

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Speaker 2: done this. I don't know, what do you guys think?

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Speaker 1: It seems like a bit of a weird horror story situation, right,

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Speaker 1: like this obsessed mom like taking her you know, anger

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Speaker 1: out on her daughter and killing her. It reminds me

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Speaker 1: of a movie by a Sotoshi Cone called Perfect Blue.

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Speaker 1: Have you've ever seen that? So? Perfect Blue is about

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Speaker 1: a pop star musician in Japan. It's an animated film,

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Speaker 1: and the whole idea is that as a pop star

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Speaker 1: with a lot of visibility and like fame, she has

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Speaker 1: like all these like kind of like creepy stalkers who

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Speaker 1: and so the movie like is making you think that,

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Speaker 1: you know, they are these creepy stalker people had to

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Speaker 1: like kill her or harm her in some way, and

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Speaker 1: then you realize at the end, like the person who's

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Speaker 1: most trying to harm her, her mom, is like her,

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Speaker 1: not her mom, but her agent, who is also like an.

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Speaker 4: Order like close person close to her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was kind of like the story of Selena. Also, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you know about that, right, it's like this other

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Speaker 1: woman who's older, who is like very envious, ended up

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Speaker 1: being like the most danger.

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Speaker 2: To her, right, Yeah, that's true in pop movies like Bodyguard,

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Speaker 2: right when Whitney Houston is this famous superstar, remember, and

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Speaker 2: then the killer ends up being her sister, the one

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Speaker 2: who's sending the ransom notes and stuff like that.

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Speaker 4: So yeah, I can't imagine that it's Patsy.

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Speaker 3: I mean, like, well, of course, you know, may she

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Speaker 3: rest in peace, says she's not alive to defend herself.

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Speaker 3: But I can't see a mother harming a child. But

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Speaker 3: you know, sadly, we do know that it happens.

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Speaker 1: But well, there are more theories, so yeah, oh, let's more.

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Speaker 2: Sorry, Okay, there's this theory. So the dad, John Ramsey,

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Speaker 2: was responsible. So this is the other theory, right, and

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Speaker 2: this is because, as we said earlier, he was the

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Speaker 2: one who found the body before the investigators did. And

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Speaker 2: the thing about this is nobody saw him find the body.

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Speaker 2: He just said that he found her and he brought

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Speaker 2: her upstairs. And like you said earlier, right, Trevor, he

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Speaker 2: took the duct tape off of her mouth as well,

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Speaker 2: So all that evidence is gone because he's already touched it, right.

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Speaker 2: So the theory is maybe he already knew where John

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Speaker 2: Bennet was and the whole discovery was just an act.

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Speaker 1: Very possible. I mean, the police officer wasn't able to

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Speaker 1: find them. They spent hours searching and never found her.

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Speaker 1: So the fact that he John was able to find

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Speaker 1: her so quickly is certainly suspicious.

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Speaker 3: Yeah again, Devil's Advocate. It was a fifteen room house

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Speaker 3: and really large too, So maybe he just got lucky.

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Speaker 4: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you get lucky in your own house.

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Speaker 1: But okay, yeah, yeah, I mean there was one other

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Speaker 1: piece of I guess you can call it evidence that

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Speaker 1: pointed to John. Really, this is just a theory that

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Speaker 1: people have talked about online. So if you remember, John

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Speaker 1: Benay was found with vaginal ligatures, so many people put

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Speaker 1: forth this idea that John was you know, somehow sexually

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Speaker 1: abusing John Benney his daughter and that that's where that

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Speaker 1: came from, and that like maybe this was a night

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Speaker 1: where he was like creeping into his daughter's room to

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Speaker 1: do this and something went wrong and he killed her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a theory online, right, that one I'm skeptical of

365
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Speaker 1: and certainly don't want to ever accuse anyone of that

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Speaker 1: without any proof. And that's the thing, there was no

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Speaker 1: real proof of this theory. The family vehemently denied it,

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Speaker 1: and they even said publicly, quote, there is no history

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Speaker 1: of sexual assault. A person doesn't just go throughout their

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Speaker 1: lives as a normal human being and then one night

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Speaker 1: turn into a monster, slaughter their daughter, go to bed,

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Speaker 1: get up and act normal from there on. That doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen end quote. And I mean, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: that actually did happen. That's horrible, but it sounds really

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Speaker 1: weird to me. I mean, I think there's some truth

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Speaker 1: to that quote, right, Like, there's really no history of

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Speaker 1: this and there's nothing else to bet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and normally abusers have a pattern and a history

379
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Speaker 3: and a Yeah, it doesn't just come out of nowhere

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Speaker 3: and then go away again.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was for some reason for me, he

382
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Speaker 2: was not at the top of my list.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's very active today in talking about John Benney,

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Speaker 3: like he goes to crime con he I believe, he's written,

385
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Speaker 3: you know, other books and he's he just seems so

386
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Speaker 3: authentic and so real and so devastated by everything that's

387
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Speaker 3: happened to his family. And sadly, no matter what happens,

388
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Speaker 3: people are always going to think that possibly that he

389
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Speaker 3: or Patsy did it.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. And you know, I love Elizabeth

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Speaker 2: Vargas and there's a special that she did and it's

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Speaker 2: called Hunting John Benney's Killer. And there's many things that

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Speaker 2: they talk about in this, but one of the things

394
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Speaker 2: that was that stood out to me is John Ramsey

395
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Speaker 2: said that if they did find the killer, right all

396
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Speaker 2: these years later, they found the DNA of who killed

397
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Speaker 2: John Beney, still twenty percent of society would still put

398
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Speaker 2: the blame on the Ramsey family.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

400
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Speaker 3: So another huge theory out there is that her brother Burke,

401
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Speaker 3: somehow actually did the killing. And that's you know what

402
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Speaker 3: I had thought for a long time. It felt like

403
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Speaker 3: the parents were covering up something and maybe they were

404
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,600
Speaker 3: trying to protect their son. You know, investigators discovered what

405
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Speaker 3: they called a perfectly rectangular defect in John Beney's head.

406
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Speaker 3: They suspected that it came from a blow from a

407
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Speaker 3: big flashlight, which can actually be seen in a photo

408
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Speaker 3: that was on the kitchen counter in the crime scene photos.

409
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Speaker 3: So supposedly the flashlight fit the eight and a half

410
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Speaker 3: inch gash in her skull to perfection, but no evidence

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Speaker 3: of either John Benet or Burke were actually found on

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Speaker 3: the flashlight.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, there was also something else that pointed to Burke,

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Speaker 1: if you remember, John Benay also had a couple of

415
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Speaker 1: injuries on her back that looked like maybe.

416
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Speaker 4: Cuts or lacerations.

417
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So investigators initially thought they were from like

418
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Speaker 1: a stun gun, like some sort of home in trader

419
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Speaker 1: or something, or somebody like hit her with a stun gun,

420
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Speaker 1: but they later discovered that they the marks were consistent

421
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Speaker 1: with the edges of one of Burke's toy train tracks,

422
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Speaker 1: so police thought Burke used them to like nudge or

423
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Speaker 1: poke his sister's unconscious body for a response, like after

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Speaker 1: some incident had happened. Yeah, the question of whether or

425
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Speaker 1: not Burke did it to me is the only big

426
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Speaker 1: plausible one out of the three of the parents. I

427
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Speaker 1: don't want to like make any false accusations, but if

428
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Speaker 1: we're just purely looking at the facts, I think, like

429
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Speaker 1: you said, the parents seemed to be lying for a

430
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Speaker 1: reason to cover up something going on this night. We

431
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Speaker 1: don't know what, but it feels like if they were

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Speaker 1: trying to get themselves out of the situation, there are

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Speaker 1: things they would have done differently. It very much felt

434
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Speaker 1: like they were covering up for somebody else, and the

435
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,880
Speaker 1: only other person there was Burke. And remember, like Burke

436
00:25:12,960 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 1: was heard in the background of that nine one one call,

437
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,800
Speaker 1: so he was clearly awake and involved in some capacity

438
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 1: that they are not telling us about. So it feels

439
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 1: like they are lying for Burke many times.

440
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:23,440
Speaker 4: Right.

441
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 1: So, Okay, there's one more theory that we need to

442
00:25:26,960 --> 00:25:29,640
Speaker 1: talk about, and this is really the one that's most

443
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:32,639
Speaker 1: prominent today. But we have to take another break, so

444
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:34,359
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that theory when we come back.

445
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:45,399
Speaker 2: Okay, So, the last big theory is the intruder theory.

446
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:50,840
Speaker 2: So CBS would report that there were thirty eight registered

447
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 2: sex offenders in a two mile radius of the Ramsays home,

448
00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,679
Speaker 2: and that there were over a hundred burglaries in their

449
00:25:59,760 --> 00:26:04,159
Speaker 2: namemborhood in the months before the murder. So this is

450
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:08,600
Speaker 2: another theory. You have thirty eight sex offenders. That's a

451
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 2: huge number, and especially in you know, this is a

452
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: money area.

453
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is the theory that was being pushed

454
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 1: by the Ramsey parents themselves, like on TV, like, we

455
00:26:21,520 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: live in a dangerous area and some wacko did this

456
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: to our daughter. And this is now essentially where the

457
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 1: investigation stands because it's been ongoing. So the investigation currently

458
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: believes that it was in fact two intruders. They think

459
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: this because there were actually two distinct bootprints in the

460
00:26:41,640 --> 00:26:44,080
Speaker 1: room where John Bennie was found, the wine cellar that

461
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: they later discovered. There was also a report of a

462
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: ban that was at some point squatting outside the Ramsey house.

463
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: They had two accounts of this. One was the night

464
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 1: before she was murdered and then also the day after.

465
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 1: So multiple times they're seeing this van, which makes people

466
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: think there's somebody stalking Jump and at I think there's

467
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of evidence to back this up. Frankly,

468
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: I mean, this is kind of what we've been alluding

469
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 1: to this whole episode or two two episodes, which is

470
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 1: that you know, Jean Benet had a very public profile, yep,

471
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,320
Speaker 1: and you know there are a lot of creepers out there.

472
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 1: Whoever the creepy dude was on the float that night,

473
00:27:22,840 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: you know, the night before or a couple nights before

474
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: she went missing.

475
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 2: I mean for me, like again, I started with Patsy,

476
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:35,080
Speaker 2: then I thought it was Burt. But what seems the

477
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 2: most plausible for me is an intruder, but an intruder

478
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 2: that knew their comings and goings. Yes, Like I feel

479
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:49,159
Speaker 2: like somebody was watching them and got into the house

480
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 2: and did this.

481
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you remember too, that actually makes

482
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 1: sense because one of the first suspects they looked at,

483
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: and I mentioned this on part one was Bill McReynolds,

484
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:03,640
Speaker 1: who was the guy who played Santa Claus that night

485
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 1: at the holiday party.

486
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 3: I don't they always the creepers, the ones that play

487
00:28:06,520 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 3: Santa or clowns.

488
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: Don't say that about Santa Russia.

489
00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm sorry, Santa impersonators, nothing personal, but you're kind

490
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 3: of creepy.

491
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: I've always thought Santa's were creepy. I'm sorry. I don't

492
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: even anyhow he would actually fit that profile really well, right,

493
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: because he knew them. He was like a neighbor, so

494
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: he knew their comings and goings. However, he was officially

495
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 1: dismissed as a suspect eventually, So.

496
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,640
Speaker 2: Right, right, it could have been like you know, John

497
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 2: Bennet was in the pageant scene. She was, you know,

498
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 2: on this flow. It could have been another pageant father

499
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 2: who was obsessed with young girls. I mean, I just

500
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 2: really think that it was somebody other than one of

501
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 2: the family members.

502
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think so too.

503
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was just I mean a couple of days

504
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 1: earlier that she had one little Miss Christmas pageant in Denver,

505
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: so like there was a lot of like eyes on

506
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 1: her around that time. I think one thing that backs

507
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,120
Speaker 1: up this idea too is the fact that she was

508
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: clearly sexually assaulted in some way. Yeah, so in this theory,

509
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 1: it would mean that one of these creepy dudes had

510
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 1: desires to sexually harm this child, and so that would

511
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: make sense of the trauma they found on her body.

512
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, it's whoever did it was clearly a pedophile, absolutely,

513
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:29,320
Speaker 5: And I just have to say, you know, while we're

514
00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 5: talking about you know, the whole pageantry, like a lot

515
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,000
Speaker 5: of people have really criticized, you know, Patsy for pushing

516
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 5: John Bennet into it.

517
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: And you know, there's definitely something about that, right, because

518
00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 2: trying to make your child, you know, compete like in

519
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: an industry that she was once in, right by dressing

520
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: her up and doing the heavy makeup in the dresses,

521
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 2: like she's trying to live vicariously through her daughter, right,

522
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 2: But at the same time, like we have to remember

523
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: she's five years old.

524
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there's some danger to like making your

525
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:11,400
Speaker 1: child an object of sex appeal for sure.

526
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 3: Yeah.

527
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think it kind of makes her

528
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: a target in a really messed up way. And I

529
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: hate to say it that way, but you know, this

530
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: just gets I think, into a philosophical conversation about whether

531
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: or not you believe in child beauty pageants should be

532
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 1: a thing or not, like if they are dangerous. And

533
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: I think that's probably where a lot of that criticism

534
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: of Patsy comes from, not saying she did it herself,

535
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: but that indirectly she like set way up to be

536
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: stocked and eventually killed.

537
00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, So I do want to point something out, right,

538
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 3: So once again, the media was absolutely relentless in this

539
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 3: case and very similar to the cases of Lacy Peterson

540
00:30:53,600 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 3: and Matthew Shepard. This case was on every TV station,

541
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 3: every magazine. It was in the news cycle for literal years,

542
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 3: and people were obsessed and I was one of them.

543
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 4: Me too.

544
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a really hard time reading the details,

545
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:12,840
Speaker 3: but I wanted to and I want to know who

546
00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 3: killed John Benny Ramsey. But like, it just it makes

547
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 3: me sad, like especially like having a voice, and we're

548
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 3: all having this discussion, right It's like we could be

549
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 3: having this discussion at Yvette's you know house in San Francisco,

550
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 3: and no one else would be hearing it, but the

551
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 3: world is hearing it. So whether that's good or bad,

552
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 3: it definitely can negatively impact the Ramsey family. And you know,

553
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 3: we're not the only ones talking about the John Benney

554
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 3: murder case, and we have to think about it. Right,

555
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:47,240
Speaker 3: The Ramses were completely thrown into the spotlight when their

556
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 3: little girl was murdered, and I can only imagine what

557
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:57,040
Speaker 3: they went through, what Burke went through, and John and Patsy,

558
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 3: like everyone in the Ramsey family, and Burke, you know,

559
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:06,680
Speaker 3: has since led a very private life, with the exception

560
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 3: of the fact that he was actually interviewed by Yvette.

561
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 4: Our friend doctor Phil.

562
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,920
Speaker 2: Yep, doctor Phil, Yep.

563
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:15,200
Speaker 4: We love our doctor Phil.

564
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: So let's listen to a clip of Burke being interviewed

565
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: by doctor Phil.

566
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 6: Now, I remember the casket is small and her eyes

567
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 6: were closed. I think one of her eyes was a

568
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 6: little bit like droopy or something. I thought that was weird.

569
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: How did you feel seeing her?

570
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,560
Speaker 6: A lot of sadness. I don't think I really fully

571
00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 6: grasped like after this, I won't see her again.

572
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 3: So when you listen to Burke, there's clearly a lot

573
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 3: of pain there because at nine years old, he went

574
00:32:48,320 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 3: through horrific trauma. And of course I know that people

575
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: want to know the truth. But I can only imagine

576
00:32:56,280 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 3: that this ruined Burke's life, and I truly, truly, truly

577
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:07,680
Speaker 3: believe that we should do our best to give him

578
00:33:08,280 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 3: and the entire Ramsey family, you know, some some peace, greed.

579
00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you know, whatever the truth is, you know,

580
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: Burke went through something horrible. Yeah, you know, as far

581
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: as the facts tell us, you know, both he and

582
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: his parents are not responsible for this murder, so until

583
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: proven otherwise, Like, people need to stop harassing Burke, Yeah,

584
00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: people need to stop accusing him of things and unless

585
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: there's something concrete, yeah, exactly, you know, and either way,

586
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: he was just a kid. He was. Even if something

587
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 1: did happen, it wouldn't have been intentional.

588
00:33:38,960 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, right.

589
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 3: I just hope he's had the opportunity to go through

590
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:48,040
Speaker 3: like PTSD and trauma therapy and it can really help.

591
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 2: We all know that, you know, generational trauma is a

592
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 2: real thing. So and you can imagine him being nine

593
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 2: years old and having to deal with this his whole life.

594
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 6: Right.

595
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: So some people, you know, when they saw that clip

596
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: of him on Doctor Phil, you know, everybody is trying

597
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: to analyze like, Okay, well, is he did he do it?

598
00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 2: Is he right in the head?

599
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:09,080
Speaker 6: Is it?

600
00:34:09,120 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: This?

601
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:09,759
Speaker 6: Is that?

602
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 2: But you have to remember whether he's speaking the way

603
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: that you want him to speak or making the eye

604
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: movements like that, doesn't none of that matters, Like you know,

605
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 2: like you said, there's no concrete evidence. But what what

606
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,120
Speaker 2: we do have to remember we have to have some

607
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: compassion for what the family has gone through.

608
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: You know.

609
00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:38,120
Speaker 2: Well, we're near the end of the show today, and

610
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 2: that means it's time for our Emua, our final message

611
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 2: of hope and healing. We may never find out what

612
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: happened to John Bennet or who killed her. So it's

613
00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: impossible to find any mua in the case like this,

614
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 2: almost impossible, almost impossible, where a young girl was taken

615
00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 2: before she could even blossom, and too the woman she

616
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:02,120
Speaker 2: was meant to be.

617
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,480
Speaker 3: But we always have to find the light in the darkness,

618
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 3: and we will do that here.

619
00:35:09,480 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 4: Our emua today is about.

620
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:16,200
Speaker 3: The innocence of the cakey and Kiki and Hawaiian means child.

621
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 4: So our emoa is dedicated to the innocence of children.

622
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:26,960
Speaker 2: Yes, and especially to the children like John Bennet who

623
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 2: were robbed of their innocence. And I'll just leave you

624
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 2: with this thought. Let children be children. Onward and upward,

625
00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:44,200
Speaker 2: Emoa Emoa.

626
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:46,280
Speaker 4: That's our show for today.

627
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 3: If you want to reach out and share a thought

628
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 3: about today's discussion, please find us on social media at

629
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: Facing Evil Pod or email us at Facingevil Pod at

630
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 3: tenderfoot dot tv until next time.

631
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 1: Facing Evil is a production of iHeartRadio and Tenderfoot TV.

632
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,280
Speaker 1: The show is hosted by Russia Pacquerero and Avett Gentile.

633
00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:40,760
Speaker 1: Matt Frederick and Alex Williams, our executive producers on behalf

634
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:45,600
Speaker 1: of iHeartRadio with producers Trevor Young and Jesse Funk. Donald

635
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 1: Albright In Payne Lindsay our executive producers on behalf of

636
00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Tenderfoot TV, alongside producer Tracy Kaplan. Our researcher is Claudia Dafrico.

637
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,239
Speaker 1: Original music by Makeup and Vanity Set. Find us on

638
00:36:59,280 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 1: social media or email us at facingevilpod at tenderfoot dot tv.

639
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,880
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio or Tenderfoot TV, visit the

640
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:12,960
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

641
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Speaker 1: favorite shows