WEBVTT - The Monstrefact Omnibus: Monsters of DC Comics

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 2>Hi, my name is Robert Lamb and this is the

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<v Speaker 2>Monster Fact. In this special omnibus episode of The Monster Fact,

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<v Speaker 2>please enjoy the first four episodes concerning monsters from the

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<v Speaker 2>DC Comics universe, Killer Crock, Swamp Thing, Doomsday, and Mister

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<v Speaker 2>Mind Up. First, let's check in with Killer Croc. Batman's

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<v Speaker 2>rogues gallery boasts an unbelievable variety of super villains, from

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<v Speaker 2>chaotic clown criminals and calendar officionados to amorphous clay monsters

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<v Speaker 2>and cryogenically frozen mad scientists. But in terms of more

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<v Speaker 2>monstrous foes, a few names rise to the top. There's,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, the Man Bat hybrid man Bat. But I

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<v Speaker 2>thought we might discuss another famous foe of the caped crusader,

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<v Speaker 2>Waylon Jones aka Killer Croc. Now, if you grew up

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<v Speaker 2>on the nineties Batman animated series like I did, you'll

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<v Speaker 2>probably remember this guy is a pale, gray, scaly humanoid

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<v Speaker 2>with big shoulders, sharp teeth, and a skeletal face. He's

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<v Speaker 2>at home in the waters, especially river and sewer waters,

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<v Speaker 2>and he possesses great strength for grappling Batman. This character

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<v Speaker 2>was created back in nineteen eighty three for the Batman

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<v Speaker 2>comic by Jerry Conway, Don Newton, and Gene Colan. His

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<v Speaker 2>original appearance was greener and scalier, and over the years,

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<v Speaker 2>designs for Killer Crock have only grown more monstrous. In

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteen eighty three comic debut, he's roughly the size

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<v Speaker 2>of a large man, but in the two thousand and

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<v Speaker 2>nine video game Arkham Asylum, he's an absolute ogre that

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<v Speaker 2>basically fills an entire prison cell by himself. The original

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<v Speaker 2>explanation given for Killer Croc's appearance is a skin condition,

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<v Speaker 2>probably meant to be something from the ichthiosis family of

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<v Speaker 2>genetic skin conditions that can produce a scale like quality

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<v Speaker 2>of the skin. Now, I'm not sure how tasteful this

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately is, and besides, this is hardly an excuse for

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<v Speaker 2>other aspects of Killer Croc's appearance and character. Plus, to

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<v Speaker 2>be clear, killer Croc has dinosaur feet and other dinosaur

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<v Speaker 2>like qualities in his later appearances. As such, these later

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<v Speaker 2>incarnations of Killer Croc are often explained as a severe

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<v Speaker 2>form of atavism, a real life recurrence of a genetic

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<v Speaker 2>trait typical of an ancestral form. The topic is explored

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<v Speaker 2>in the excellent book DC Anatomy of a Metahuman by

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<v Speaker 2>SD Perry and Matthew K. Manning, with illustrations by Mean Dole.

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<v Speaker 2>As the authors point out, a vestigial tail or an

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<v Speaker 2>extra nipple in human beings is not too uncommon an

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<v Speaker 2>example of this, but if the affected gene is old enough,

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<v Speaker 2>a pre mammalian trait may be expressed in a human being.

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<v Speaker 2>Some of our genetic pre mammalian traits can be seen

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<v Speaker 2>in our embryotic development. We see temporary examples of this

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<v Speaker 2>in the dental placodes of developing human fetuses, which, according

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<v Speaker 2>to Petrokova at All in the two thousand and six

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<v Speaker 2>paper for the Journal of Experimental Zoology, resemble early tooth

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<v Speaker 2>primordia in reptiles. The human fetus also temporarily develops a tail.

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<v Speaker 2>In a twenty nineteen Howard University study identified ancient reptilian

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<v Speaker 2>limb muscles in human embryos during the early weeks of gestation.

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<v Speaker 2>More startling, however, is a case reported by Walia at

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<v Speaker 2>All in a twenty ten edition of the Texas Heart

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<v Speaker 2>Institute Journal, when a fifty nine year old man sought

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<v Speaker 2>medical attention concerning chest pains, doctors discovered some surprising myocardial architecture.

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<v Speaker 2>Quote Remarkably, the morphology resembled that of the reptilian heart,

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<v Speaker 2>that is, it featured direct communications to the ventricle cavity

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<v Speaker 2>and had the sinusodal characteristics of non compacted myocardium. The

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<v Speaker 2>authors note that this was the second known case of

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<v Speaker 2>such a heart in human beings. While the medical curiosity

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<v Speaker 2>certainly there was certainly nothing monstrous about this, the fictional

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<v Speaker 2>case of killer croc would seem to involve a fantastic

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<v Speaker 2>exaggeration of reptilian ativism in a human being, and multiple

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<v Speaker 2>cases of it at bat, impacting various bodily systems and features,

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<v Speaker 2>a kind of ridiculous atavism jackpot if you will now. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 2>crocodilian morphology factors into various mythological creatures for various cultures

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<v Speaker 2>and time periods around the world where crocodiles live or

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<v Speaker 2>where stories of crocodiles would drift to. Traditions in Egypt, Zambia,

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<v Speaker 2>and Indonesia involve humans that transform into crocodiles to harm others,

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<v Speaker 2>akin to the werewolfs of Western lore. So it's likely

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<v Speaker 2>here that we find the closest thing to Killer Krock

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<v Speaker 2>outside of comic books, rather than in our own human

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<v Speaker 2>medical history. Now, let's turn our attention to one of

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<v Speaker 2>my all time favorite comic book characters, the swamp Thing.

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<v Speaker 2>Swamp Thing was the creation of writer Lynn Wine and

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<v Speaker 2>artist Bernie Wrightson, debuting in the House of Secrets horror

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<v Speaker 2>comic back in nineteen seventy one. Since that time, swamp

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<v Speaker 2>Thing has appeared in two live action eighties films, two

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<v Speaker 2>live action TV series, and numerous animation and video game projects.

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<v Speaker 2>But among comic fans, there's nothing to compare to Alan

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<v Speaker 2>Moore's run with the character during the nineteen eighties. Swamp

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<v Speaker 2>Thing's original origin story was not all but different from

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<v Speaker 2>other lab accidents spawned monsters. Scientist Alec Holland his experimental

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<v Speaker 2>formula and a lab explosion in the Bayou transforms man

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<v Speaker 2>into plant based monster, who in turn battles various other monsters,

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<v Speaker 2>often in the form of doctor Anton R. Kane's Unmen,

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<v Speaker 2>plus many others. In Moore's run with the character, however,

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<v Speaker 2>he subverted this troupe, invoking biochemical memory experiments about plenarian worms.

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<v Speaker 2>We discussed these in our episode Devourer of Memories. His

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<v Speaker 2>take is that Alik Holin does not survive the explosion

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<v Speaker 2>in the swamp. He is not a man who becomes

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<v Speaker 2>a plant like monster, but plant life of the swamp

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<v Speaker 2>that generates a body and a sense of self in

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<v Speaker 2>the likeness of the dead man. It consumes, in this

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<v Speaker 2>more stripped swamp thing of any direct connection to his

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<v Speaker 2>human identity and opens the door for a deeper connection

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<v Speaker 2>to the green and the Parliament of trees, essentially recreating

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<v Speaker 2>the character as a plant elemental, a warrior of Gaia,

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<v Speaker 2>and overall super lorax if you will. If you haven't

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<v Speaker 2>read the Saga of the Swamp Thing, I highly highly

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<v Speaker 2>recommend it. Virtually nothing can touch it now. Long time

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<v Speaker 2>listeners to Stuff to Blow your mind and general philosophy

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<v Speaker 2>junkies might remember a similar creature. No, not Marvel's man Thing,

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<v Speaker 2>though he's awesome as well, but philosopher Donald Davidson's swamp

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<v Speaker 2>Man thought experiment. We've talked about this on the show

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<v Speaker 2>as well, back in our Thought Experiment's episode. It basically

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<v Speaker 2>goes as follows. If a lightning strike in the swamp

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<v Speaker 2>were to destroy Davidson's body and transform an adjacent dead

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<v Speaker 2>tree into an exact living replica of Davidson without reusing

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<v Speaker 2>any of the previous Davidson molecules. Then what do we have?

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<v Speaker 2>This tree double or swamp Man. It behaves just like

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<v Speaker 2>the previous Davidson and seems to know what he knew,

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<v Speaker 2>But does it really know anything? In this swamp Man

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<v Speaker 2>is a rumination on thought and meaning in knowing one's mind.

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<v Speaker 2>Davidson writes the following quote, My replica can't recognize my friends.

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<v Speaker 2>It can't recognize anything, since it never cognized anything in

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<v Speaker 2>the first place. It can't know my friend's names, though

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<v Speaker 2>of course it seems to. It can't remember my house.

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<v Speaker 2>It can't mean what I do by the word house,

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<v Speaker 2>for example, since the sound house it makes was not

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<v Speaker 2>learned in a context that would give it the right meaning,

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<v Speaker 2>or any meaning at all. Indeed, I don't see how

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<v Speaker 2>my replica can be said to mean anything by the

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<v Speaker 2>sounds it makes, nor to have any thoughts. Now. It's

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<v Speaker 2>worth noting that Davidson, who died in two thousand and three,

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<v Speaker 2>published this idea on Swampman a few years after More

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<v Speaker 2>recast the origin of swamp Thing, and as far as

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<v Speaker 2>I can tell, no one is entirely certain on how

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<v Speaker 2>and to what extent the two are connected. Authors Chris

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<v Speaker 2>Galliver and Nathaniel Goldberg explored the connection or possible connection

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<v Speaker 2>in the twenty nineteen book Superhero Thought Experiments, Comic Book

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<v Speaker 2>Philosophy and contend Quote. While there's no evidence that either

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<v Speaker 2>Moore or Davidson read each other, Moore's series appears to

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<v Speaker 2>be philosophically influenced and Davidson's Thought Experiment appears to be

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<v Speaker 2>pop culturally influenced. So perhaps it's just the case of

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<v Speaker 2>two men on different tracks thinking deep thoughts about swamp

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<v Speaker 2>and the self now. Gavalier and Goldberg also stress that

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<v Speaker 2>there are distinct differences in their treatments quote. When it

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<v Speaker 2>comes to meaning or semantics, swamp Man is a blank slate,

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<v Speaker 2>while Moore's swamp Thing initially mistakes itself for Alec Holland,

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<v Speaker 2>only later to realize that it isn't Alec Holland. Swamp

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<v Speaker 2>Man never miss takes itself for Donald Davidson. It only

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<v Speaker 2>appears to do so. If Davidson is right, swamp Man

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<v Speaker 2>thinks no thoughts. It can't think it's Davidson because it

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<v Speaker 2>can't think at all. Hmm, So ponder on all of that,

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<v Speaker 2>and by all means, pick up a copy of Superhero

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<v Speaker 2>Thought Experiments if you want to deeper dive on this topic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really quite an excellent book. Comic fans, I will

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<v Speaker 2>leave you with this. Here's a question for you. Has

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<v Speaker 2>swamp Thing ever actually met Davidson's swamp Man in the

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<v Speaker 2>pages of a comic book. It seems like in general,

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<v Speaker 2>any kind of matchup or encounter that one could possibly

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<v Speaker 2>imagine has occurred, or no doubt will occur. I can't

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<v Speaker 2>help but wonder how this would go down. What would

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<v Speaker 2>swamp Thing think about the encounter, and what would swamp

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<v Speaker 2>Man seem to think about it but actually not think

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<v Speaker 2>at all. Of course, we can't talk about DC monsters

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<v Speaker 2>without talking about one of Superman's most monstrous opponents. It's

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<v Speaker 2>time to talk about Doomsday, the brutal, spiny shouldered Kryptonian monster,

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<v Speaker 2>best known for killing Superman in the early nineteen nineties.

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<v Speaker 2>While the superhero's death didn't last too long, it was

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<v Speaker 2>certainly a great way to launch a supervillain's career, and

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<v Speaker 2>Doomsday has remained one of the resurrected Superman's most recognizable foes.

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<v Speaker 2>His creation is credited to Jan Jurgens Brett, Breeding, Jerry Ordway,

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<v Speaker 2>Louise Simonson, and Roger Stern. In DC Anatomy of a

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<v Speaker 2>Metahuman by S. D. Perry and Matthew K. Manning with

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<v Speaker 2>illustrations by Mean Doyle, the authors lay out Doomsday's tragic

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<v Speaker 2>origin story. An alien scientist named Bertron takes a humanoid

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<v Speaker 2>child and exposes that child to the deadly prehistoric environment

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<v Speaker 2>of the planet Krypton. The child dies, that Bertrn resurrects

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<v Speaker 2>the child via advanced cloning technology and reintroduces the child

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<v Speaker 2>to the wild with added traits to protect them. The

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<v Speaker 2>child dies again, and the amoral Bertrand continues the cycle

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<v Speaker 2>over and over again, using sci fi cloning technology in

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<v Speaker 2>the place of natural selection to eventually produce an incredibly

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<v Speaker 2>tough super being, the ultimate metahuman combatant, now virtually undying

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<v Speaker 2>himself incapable of amazing feats of regeneration, This is the

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<v Speaker 2>being that will become known as Doomsday. However, as Doomsday

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<v Speaker 2>retains the traumatic memory of his many formative deaths, he's

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<v Speaker 2>ultimately tormented by the rage, so much that he eventually

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<v Speaker 2>kills his mad scientist creator and continues to see the

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<v Speaker 2>face of his hated creator in others and rages against

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<v Speaker 2>them incessantly. It's a clever twist on evolution, melding the

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<v Speaker 2>science of natural selection, the philosophy of Frederic Nietzsche, and

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<v Speaker 2>the psychological trauma. It's also interesting when we start considering

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<v Speaker 2>the idea of resurrection from a religious and mythological standpoint.

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<v Speaker 2>Superman in the Death of Superman's story arc quite clearly

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<v Speaker 2>echoes the religious motif of the dying and rising God

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<v Speaker 2>famously seen in such figures as the ancient Egyptian of

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<v Speaker 2>Cyrus and the Christian Jesus. Doomsday is seemingly something else,

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<v Speaker 2>though not a god who has died and come back,

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<v Speaker 2>but a mortal who has died and come back so

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<v Speaker 2>many times that he has become at least a demi

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<v Speaker 2>god and a potential slayer of the divine, though in

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<v Speaker 2>many ways Doomsday is not so different. After all, there

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<v Speaker 2>is a psychical aspect to the death and resurrection of

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<v Speaker 2>such religious figures as of Cyrus and Jesus as well,

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<v Speaker 2>making their deaths and resurrections also quite numerable. In a sense.

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<v Speaker 2>Even in cases where there is only the singular death

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<v Speaker 2>in the singular resurrection. These events are often remembered or

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<v Speaker 2>celebrated alongside cyclical events like the passing of the seasons

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<v Speaker 2>and the inundation of the Nile River, but they are

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<v Speaker 2>still singular resurrections celebrated cyclically in multitude. Doomsday, however, has

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<v Speaker 2>experienced a multitude of deaths across linear time. In this

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<v Speaker 2>you could argue that he is a modern secular linear

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<v Speaker 2>perversion of the cyclical sacred and mythic and therefore a

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<v Speaker 2>fitting opponent for the godlike Superman. But I would be

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<v Speaker 2>very interested to hear what you think about the matter. Finally,

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<v Speaker 2>here's a more obscure DC villain, though he has shown

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<v Speaker 2>up in the movies. It's mister Mind. Meet mister Mind,

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<v Speaker 2>a tiny Venusian worm or caterpillar to be clear, he

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<v Speaker 2>has legs with enormous power at its disposal. Created in

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<v Speaker 2>DC com comics in the early nineteen forties by Auto

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<v Speaker 2>Bender and C. C. Beck, mister Mind stands as one

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<v Speaker 2>of the primary supervillains of Captain Marvel. Not the Marvel

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<v Speaker 2>Captain Marvel, but the DC Captain Marvel. Minds you this

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<v Speaker 2>is the one that moviegoers may know best as Shazam.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Mind also makes a couple of cameo appearances in

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<v Speaker 2>those films. Now, mister Mind boasts incredible psychic powers in

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<v Speaker 2>a genius level intellect to back those powers up, so

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<v Speaker 2>he's gotten into all sorts of mischief over the years,

0:15:34.480 --> 0:15:38.880
<v Speaker 2>including founding the Monster Society of Evil. He also employs

0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:42.800
<v Speaker 2>at least two key bits of technology, special classes and

0:15:42.880 --> 0:15:46.720
<v Speaker 2>an audio amplifier to interact with the larger world, because again,

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:49.800
<v Speaker 2>despite his powers, he is a tiny worm or caterpillar.

0:15:50.480 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>But what I want to focus on is his old

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:56.880
<v Speaker 2>and frankly odd origin story from the Silver Age of comics,

0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:00.080
<v Speaker 2>in which he makes the interplanetary void from Venus to

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Earth in order to meet ventriloquist Edgar Bergen's dummy Charlie McCarthy.

0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:11.240
<v Speaker 2>This was Slash is a real ventriloquist dummy. Mister Mind,

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:15.800
<v Speaker 2>you see, had heard Charlie McCarthy on Earth's radio program

0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.760
<v Speaker 2>Transmissions and apparently mistook fiction for reality. He was, of

0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:24.880
<v Speaker 2>course disappointed upon learning the truth. It's a common sci

0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:30.080
<v Speaker 2>fi trope explored on Futurama and elsewhere. Extraterrestrials pick up

0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.880
<v Speaker 2>on transmissions from Earth and either misunderstand the difference between

0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.840
<v Speaker 2>fiction and reality or simply lack the ability to tell

0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:40.040
<v Speaker 2>the difference. There are even more sci fi works that

0:16:40.120 --> 0:16:45.360
<v Speaker 2>explore the larger idea of intercepted Earth transmissions, most notably

0:16:45.440 --> 0:16:49.960
<v Speaker 2>Carl Sagan's nineteen eighty five novel Contact the Si. In

0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the sci fi here is of course that for more

0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:56.120
<v Speaker 2>than one hundred years we've been busting out commercial radio

0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.960
<v Speaker 2>transmissions here on Earth. However, as Robert Matthews points out

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 2>in a BBC Science Focus article, most of these signals

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.520
<v Speaker 2>were absorbed by the atmosphere or drowned out by solar

0:17:07.640 --> 0:17:11.720
<v Speaker 2>radio transmissions, so our radio leakage as a planet was

0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.600
<v Speaker 2>perhaps minimal. However, Matthew stresses that Cold War military radar

0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:21.280
<v Speaker 2>transmissions are strong enough to have already broadcast our presence

0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:25.320
<v Speaker 2>out to anyone listening within sixty light years. There have

0:17:25.359 --> 0:17:29.440
<v Speaker 2>also been deliberate radio transmissions aimed at communicating our existence,

0:17:30.160 --> 0:17:33.680
<v Speaker 2>such as the nineteen seventy four Arecibo message sent to

0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Messia thirteen, or at least in the spirit of such communication,

0:17:38.320 --> 0:17:42.200
<v Speaker 2>but the basic idea of such transmissions either emanating from

0:17:42.280 --> 0:17:47.000
<v Speaker 2>us or potentially picked up from an extraterrestrial source has

0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.760
<v Speaker 2>garnered much discussion and debate over the decades. How likely

0:17:50.920 --> 0:17:55.120
<v Speaker 2>is alien reception or our reception of an alien transmission

0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:59.160
<v Speaker 2>based on the vast distances involved in limits of possible

0:17:59.200 --> 0:18:02.320
<v Speaker 2>travel speeds as we know them, How should we approach

0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.320
<v Speaker 2>such long term concerns, and just how careful should we

0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.120
<v Speaker 2>be when it comes to such radio transmissions or even

0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:13.560
<v Speaker 2>our radio leakage. Because while our most optimistic views of

0:18:13.640 --> 0:18:18.120
<v Speaker 2>extraterrestrial contact are rosy, indeed some of the more pessimistic models,

0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.679
<v Speaker 2>based in large part on Earth's own history of outside contact,

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:27.919
<v Speaker 2>situations in which one culture encounters a technologically superior one

0:18:28.200 --> 0:18:33.119
<v Speaker 2>are perhaps best avoided. And then there's the mister Mind model,

0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:36.199
<v Speaker 2>in which we managed to attract a caterpillar supervillain to

0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:40.720
<v Speaker 2>our planet with our tantalizing nineteen forties radio comedy shows.

0:18:40.920 --> 0:18:44.480
<v Speaker 2>Thank goodness, we have so many Captain Marvels to deal

0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:48.320
<v Speaker 2>with that sort of thing. All right, we're going to

0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.840
<v Speaker 2>go and close it out here, but I'd love to

0:18:50.880 --> 0:18:53.760
<v Speaker 2>hear from you if you have suggestions for future installments

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:56.760
<v Speaker 2>of the Monster Fact or the Artifact. You can contact

0:18:56.880 --> 0:18:59.480
<v Speaker 2>us at Contact at stuff to Blow your Mind.

0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Stuff to Blow Your Mind is a production of iHeartRadio.

0:19:11.240 --> 0:19:15.240
<v Speaker 1>For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:17.080
<v Speaker 1>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.