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Speaker 1: You're listening to I Choose Me with Jenny Garth.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 1: Everyone, welcome to I Choose Me.

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Speaker 3: This podcast is all about the choices we make and

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Speaker 3: where they lead us. Today, I wanted to get into

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Speaker 3: a really cool topic something I think my hubs needs

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Speaker 3: to join me for a babe.

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Speaker 1: Can you just join me for this conversation?

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Speaker 2: I'm here, Okay, good.

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Speaker 3: It's something that all couples have to navigate. How do

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Speaker 3: you decide who's going to do what when it comes

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Speaker 3: to running a household? No one talks about this. Well,

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Speaker 3: today we're going to be joined by Eve Rodsky, who

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Speaker 3: wrote the New York Times bestselling book.

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Speaker 1: All about this topic. It's called fair Play.

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Speaker 3: Just the title alone has me ready for this fun conversation.

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Speaker 1: Are you ready for it?

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Speaker 2: Baby? Yeah? I think so.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Please welcome Ev Rodsky to the podcast. Hi, Hi Eve,

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Speaker 3: thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 4: I'm so happy to be here. Hi Daan, Hi Jenny.

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Speaker 1: This is so fun.

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Speaker 3: I want to just let's just start with this. How

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Speaker 3: did you come to write a book called fair Play?

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Speaker 3: And it's not only a book, it's a it's a

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Speaker 3: documentary and now a card game.

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Speaker 4: Correct it's everything all in one. And I will say

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Speaker 4: a very simply Jenny and Dave. It's because my husband

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Speaker 4: set sent me a text that said, I'm surprised you

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Speaker 4: didn't get blueberries. Wait wait, wait, that's why. That's why

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Speaker 4: I did blueberries at home. So let's just want to

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Speaker 4: let's picture the scene.

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Speaker 1: Okay.

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Speaker 4: I had a breast pump and a diaper bag on

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Speaker 4: the passenger seat in my car. I was driving to

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Speaker 4: pick up my son from his Tawler transition program, which

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Speaker 4: lasts like three minutes in LA as we know, and

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Speaker 4: they cost our entire salaries because we don't have universal

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Speaker 4: childcare in the United States. I had just been gotten

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Speaker 4: off the phone with my workplace, who told me that

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Speaker 4: they had given away all my direct reports. I'm a

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Speaker 4: lawyer and I was working in number finance while I

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Speaker 4: was on maternity leave, and that if I wanted to

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Speaker 4: breastfeed when I came back, that it would have to

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Speaker 4: be in a supply closet and I'd have to bring

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Speaker 4: a battery pack because they didn't have an outlet because

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Speaker 4: we had an open floor plan at the time.

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Speaker 2: What year was that, Oh, this.

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Speaker 4: Is twenty eleven. This is twenty eleven, and so this

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Speaker 4: is what's all. And then of course there's the gifts

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Speaker 4: for the newborn baby to return in the backseat of

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Speaker 4: the car you're busy late, And then on top of it,

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Speaker 4: I get this text. And so as you know, for

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Speaker 4: those who live in La like, we don't really take

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Speaker 4: it lightly to pull over because you know there's a

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Speaker 4: lot of traffic getting across town, especially if you're going

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Speaker 4: east around three o'clock, and so nightmare. So for me

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Speaker 4: to pull over and be late to pick up my

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Speaker 4: son Zach and to cry in my car about being

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Speaker 4: the fulfiller of my husband's smoothie needs, you know that

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Speaker 4: something was going wrong. And what I want to just

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Speaker 4: say is that I think my life changed that day

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Speaker 4: because as a private citizen, as a lawyer, as somebody

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Speaker 4: who is known, what I'm to take pride in is

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Speaker 4: my research. I was really really alarmed later on that

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Speaker 4: women's shoulder two thirds or more of what it takes

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Speaker 4: to run a home and family, regardless of whether or

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Speaker 4: not they make more money, and actually even gets worse

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Speaker 4: for women as they make more money in the family.

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Speaker 4: I think what I if I had known that, my

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Speaker 4: life would have been a lot better. So Ever, since

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Speaker 4: that Blueberries breakdown, my trajectory in my life has been

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Speaker 4: so different because I feel like a personal vellet candmitted

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Speaker 4: to warning couples that as fair as you think, life

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Speaker 4: is going to be. As one woman said to me,

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Speaker 4: what fair play taught her with the movement taught her,

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Speaker 4: which we'll talk about the documentary of the book The

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Speaker 4: Cards would it taught her and her partner was that

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Speaker 4: she actually didn't have a magical vagina that whispered in

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Speaker 4: her in her ear what her husband's mother wanted for Christmas.

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Speaker 4: And so that's really the goal. The goal is to

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Speaker 4: realize that this is work. It's a lot of work,

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Speaker 4: it's a practice. And if we all just got rid

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Speaker 4: of that assumptions and we moved to more structured decision

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Speaker 4: making tools, then couples and relationships they just get better.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I think I've had a blueberry breakdown of my own,

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Speaker 3: but it looked different, just the similarities, and I perhaps

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Speaker 3: might have a magical vagina, honey, So don't let her

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Speaker 3: convince you, right right, right, No.

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Speaker 1: No, we don't have to.

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Speaker 5: I'd like to know your blueberry, blueberry, it's a good one.

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Speaker 2: Well, no, I think.

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Speaker 3: My blueberry was a little more simple than yours. It

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Speaker 3: was just you know, when you you drop all the

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Speaker 3: blueberries either in the grocery store and they fly everywhere

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Speaker 3: or in the kitchen. Yeah, that's a blueberry breakdown for me.

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Speaker 3: But yours is much more profound because you're right, there's

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Speaker 3: just not enough information out there about, you know, what

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Speaker 3: happens after you say I do and then you know,

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Speaker 3: there are books about becoming a parent, raising a baby,

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Speaker 3: raising teens, all of that, but there's no information out

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Speaker 3: there about how to navigate the day in the day out,

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Speaker 3: the nitty gritty, that not so fun conversation with your

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Speaker 3: partner that we have to have in order to make

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Speaker 3: everybody feel appreciated.

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Speaker 5: To run essentially the business of the family, Yeah, because

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Speaker 5: it's a structure and it has to have, you know,

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Speaker 5: a schedule, it has to have like you know, I.

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Speaker 3: Think when we first jobs, Yeah, I think when we

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Speaker 3: first met, you didn't really have any concept of like

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Speaker 3: running a household or running being a partner in running

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Speaker 3: a family. Because he came in to our our lives.

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Speaker 3: I had already had three kids, I was divorced, we

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Speaker 3: had four dogs at the time.

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Speaker 5: I was this seven year old, eleven year old and

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Speaker 5: a sixteen year old.

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Speaker 4: Yeah wow wow yeah.

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Speaker 2: There and there was a lot and there was also.

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Speaker 5: Not a lot of structure where no one had labels

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Speaker 5: of what was their duty around the house.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that goes like to the family extension, the family unit.

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Speaker 1: And that's me, that's my bad.

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Speaker 5: I did come in and go, okay, well the girls

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Speaker 5: are supposed to do this. I'll do this, you'll do this,

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Speaker 5: and then we'll do that.

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Speaker 3: What Yeah, wait it didn't work out that way.

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Speaker 4: No, no, well well you know what, I'll tell you

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Speaker 4: what I didn't work out. It didn't work out that

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Speaker 4: way because no one's ever ever talks, never has talked

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Speaker 4: about the home as an organization. And so I will

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Speaker 4: tell you Dave and Jenny that even my aunt Marion's

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Speaker 4: Magen group, I feel for Dave, even my aunt Marion's

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Speaker 4: Magen group, I realized as I was writing fair Play

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Speaker 4: had more clearly defined expectations in the home, like you

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Speaker 4: didn't bring snack twice to that group and you were out.

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Speaker 4: But literally I remember interviewing a systems engineer, a man

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Speaker 4: who literally wrote systems for a living, and he said

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Speaker 4: to me that in his home they make the same

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Speaker 4: decision every night. They decide who's taking the dog out

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Speaker 4: right when it's about to take a piss on the rug.

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Speaker 4: And this is a man who creates systems. What a

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Speaker 4: system is is, as Dave was trying to do, figure

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Speaker 4: out in advance, who's responsible for what, so that in

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Speaker 4: the moment your emotion can stay pretty low and your

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Speaker 4: cognition can stay high. Because when there is no system,

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Speaker 4: what happens for everybody is we have this three toxic words, right,

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Speaker 4: we're going to figure it out. But figure it out

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Speaker 4: just means that we're going to either go back to assumption,

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Speaker 4: or are the dog's going to be pissing on the

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Speaker 4: rug or the twoth fairy doesn't come that night because

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Speaker 4: we all thought we were going to do it. And

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Speaker 4: that is what I was coming into when I wrote

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Speaker 4: fair Play, that this can't be good if at Marian's

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Speaker 4: masa group runs more smoothly than people's homes. And it

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Speaker 4: actually allowed me to get more grace for Seth because

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Speaker 4: this poor man, right to this day he says, how

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Speaker 4: do you get more fairness in a heterosist gender couple.

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Speaker 4: He's like, well, you just have to have your wife

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Speaker 4: write a book about you that portrays you in a

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Speaker 4: really bad, terrible light. But really, what the empathy I

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Speaker 4: was able to get for Seth over time was that

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Speaker 4: that magical vagina. Those assumptions that we're talking about. If

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Speaker 4: you think it's just going to figure we're going to

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Speaker 4: figure it out, all we have is really what we

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Speaker 4: saw in our childhood. All we have is what society

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Speaker 4: tells us. Right, we don't get to make those active

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Speaker 4: decisions for ourselves, so then we just become the default.

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Speaker 4: And often that's a race to the bottom. So it's

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Speaker 4: not something that was gonna work for me anymore, right.

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Speaker 5: I Mean we come from you know, similar like households

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Speaker 5: where you know, everybody had like some sort of structure

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Speaker 5: and chores and all that stuff and hard working and

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Speaker 5: everybody pitched in.

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Speaker 1: But it's kind of gone off the rails.

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Speaker 5: I mean, it does go It just goes off the

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Speaker 5: rails naturally, but I mean it's, yeah, it goes off.

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Speaker 5: We literally just had a couple of days ago we

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Speaker 5: had this conversation. There's you know, about what certain chores

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Speaker 5: and what people do and this and that and sometimes

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Speaker 5: you know, my my chores to unload the dishwasher, I

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Speaker 5: do it because I'm the first one up in the morning.

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Speaker 2: So I'm like, I do it. And sometimes I just

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Speaker 2: don't want to do it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, and I'll just leave and go to work and

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Speaker 5: I'll see I'll see if someone's done it. No one's

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Speaker 5: done it, so let's do it. Sometimes I throw tests

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Speaker 5: out there fun.

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Speaker 4: But again, that that is that I would say that

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Speaker 4: that is what's great is like hashtag We're all normal

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Speaker 4: because we're all doing that that same thing. But I

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Speaker 4: think what's so hard about that is that often we're

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Speaker 4: communicating in our heads and so we're expecting that somebody

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Speaker 4: knows what, you know, what what we should and shouldn't

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Speaker 4: be doing. And but but the problem I also think,

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Speaker 4: especially if you're bringing kids to the table with this,

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Speaker 4: is that what I'm trying to convince people and this

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Speaker 4: I'll just take one step back. So after the blueberries breakdown,

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Speaker 4: one thing I realized as a researcher, I put my

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Speaker 4: researcher hat on. It turns out that what we're talking

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Speaker 4: about actually has a name. It's had a name for

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Speaker 4: many decades. Right. It's called the second shift, emotional labor.

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Speaker 4: It's called invisible work. It's often done by women. But

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Speaker 4: what this work is, it's the work of the household.

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Speaker 4: But the problem is because people hadn't been treating the

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Speaker 4: home as an organization. We just associated with motherhood. But

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Speaker 4: as Dave just said, what does dishes have to do

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Speaker 4: with motherhood? Right? What is taking out not the garbage

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Speaker 4: because that that is a male masculine task that people understand.

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Speaker 4: But what is teaching a kid how to ride a

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Speaker 4: bike and knowing that you have to do that. That's

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Speaker 4: one of the fair place cards I'm showing you. What

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Speaker 4: does that have to do with motherhood? What when you

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Speaker 4: have to decide whether your child's adnoids are being taken

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Speaker 4: out or not? Why does a doctor just call the mother?

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Speaker 4: Why does that have Why would that fall in the mother?

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Speaker 4: Maybe the partner, the father or the stepfather or the

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Speaker 4: partner has more information on adnoids. But that's what happens,

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Speaker 4: is that we make these assumptions and so and then

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Speaker 4: it sort of falls on our kids to look at

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Speaker 4: this as ah, I don't want to help with chores

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Speaker 4: of the housework, so I always like to say, let's

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Speaker 4: back it up. Maybe I didn't ask your producer whether

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Speaker 4: this would be okay, but I think it would be fun,

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Speaker 4: given what we're saying, to like play a little game

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Speaker 4: about why this is how kids should be looking at

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Speaker 4: this just because you just said that, would you be

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Speaker 4: willing to pay?

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Speaker 1: Be totally willing?

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Speaker 3: I mean, the only thing is that the kids have

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Speaker 3: a dad who I kind of do a lot of

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Speaker 3: the nitty gritty of the parenting. Also, I need to

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Speaker 3: come back and circle back on the adnoid thing. I

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Speaker 3: want to make sure I know what an adnoid is and.

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Speaker 2: Us, by the way, I second that.

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Speaker 3: The other thing is, you know, Dave and I do

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Speaker 3: work in partnership on this home and as it runs

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Speaker 3: now with two adult children and one well I guess

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Speaker 3: three adult children. Now she's eighteen, so things are different

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Speaker 3: than they things are different when they were little, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Totally yeah, yeah changed.

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Speaker 5: And the twenty two year old has went to college,

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Speaker 5: came back and is now working with Jenny, and you

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Speaker 5: know it's it's definitely changed as they've grow.

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Speaker 1: Let's play the game, though, Yeah, let's try it.

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Speaker 2: Well.

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Speaker 4: I think you'll see what I mean about how to

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Speaker 4: start having these conversations, especially what I like about it,

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Speaker 4: even with your daughter as she starts to partner with someone, right,

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Speaker 4: we don't want to model. I was the person who

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Speaker 4: had to do it all, so that you have to

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Speaker 4: do it all like that's I saw that because I

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Speaker 4: had I didn't have a father really in the picture,

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Speaker 4: so I really didn't really know that there was a

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Speaker 4: day or someone who would even open the dishwasher to

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Speaker 4: see if there was an addition there.

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Speaker 3: I mean, sometimes even if you do have that male

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Speaker 3: figure in the home, you're still the lady, the mom.

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Speaker 3: That's right, that woman, the magical vagina is still doing

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Speaker 3: that's right.

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Speaker 4: So let's play. I think these are the conversations. So

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Speaker 4: we're looking at the fair play cards. So if you

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Speaker 4: step back. When I was starting to look at this

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Speaker 4: issue around invisible work the second shift, the only advice

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Speaker 4: I had and Dave was, if you're so overwhelmed, make

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Speaker 4: a list. If you're so overwhelmed, get help, And so

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Speaker 4: I ended up doing that. I made this huge spreadsheet

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Speaker 4: called the Shit I Do Spreadsheet that was ninety eight

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Speaker 4: tabs and about two thousand items of invisible work, and

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Speaker 4: it took me nine months. I did send it to Seth.

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Speaker 4: I didn't get the response that I was hoping for.

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Speaker 4: I sent it with no nine months in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 4: Over this is early Facebook, where I was sending it

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Speaker 4: out to women I didn't even know I was getting responses.

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Speaker 4: I got a response from a woman of the Jewish

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Speaker 4: Federation of Arizona, I remember, and she said, I got

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Speaker 4: your spreadsheet. I want to let you know that I'm

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Speaker 4: not staying in my marriage. So I was like, whoa,

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Speaker 4: this is maybe they do way too much shit. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 4: so I was like, oh, thanks for the information. But

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Speaker 4: so this this was sent to Seth I did. I

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Speaker 4: can't wait to discuss. I got the early version of

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Speaker 4: like a pixelated monkey emoji with him covering his eyes.

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Speaker 4: So learn very early on that you know, no context

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Speaker 4: is not so helpful in a partnership. See no evil

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Speaker 4: is sort of probably the easiest way not to engage.

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Speaker 4: But what I did know from my day job, because

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Speaker 4: I'm a lawyer, I work with the families that look

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Speaker 4: like HBO shows succession. You should feel bad for me.

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Speaker 4: But what I do for those families is I do

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Speaker 4: use governance and organizational tools, as we were saying earlier, Dave,

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Speaker 4: to bring structure and grace in humor and some generosity

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Speaker 4: to these really difficult succession decisions, So I thought, well,

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Speaker 4: what if I use those same tools and build something

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Speaker 4: for the home. So one of the first things I

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Speaker 4: do with my clients before they start getting into well

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Speaker 4: I'm doing this job or I'm going to take this over,

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Speaker 4: you just have to sort of bring it back to

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Speaker 4: the why. So that's what I wanted to do with

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Speaker 4: the exercise. I just want to grab all of these cards.

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Speaker 4: I'm just going to shuffle them, and I just want

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Speaker 4: to stop at one. I'm going to practice, and each

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Speaker 4: one of you will pick one, or we can just

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Speaker 4: do one for both, and then we can well, I

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Speaker 4: just want to show you how to have the why

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Speaker 4: conversations that you can bring your children into, because it's

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Speaker 4: going to show you spoiler alert that this is the

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Speaker 4: stuff we're talking about is so much more than chores

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Speaker 4: and housework and how to run your home. It's about

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Speaker 4: really the core of like our humanity and our values

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Speaker 4: so exactly. So let's just let's just I'll just tell you,

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Speaker 4: just tell me when to stop, and we'll just see

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Speaker 4: what you get. Oh, okay, we'll see what this one is.

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Speaker 4: This will be Jenny's and then we'll do one for

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Speaker 4: you day. Okay, Jenny you got gifts for family. So

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Speaker 4: what I want to know, and this is there's a

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Speaker 4: different card for gifts for VIPs, which is people outside

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Speaker 4: your home, but family gifts. What I want to know is, like,

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Speaker 4: what do you remember about any gift giving from your childhood?

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Speaker 3: From my childhood, I remember my mom and dad giving

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Speaker 3: me gifts mostly. I don't really remember my siblings giving

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Speaker 3: me gifts, okay, off the top of my head. And

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Speaker 3: they were always at Christmas and Birthday just.

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Speaker 4: That, okay, And what do you remember were you excited?

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Speaker 4: Were you more excited for your birthday or Christmas? Did

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Speaker 4: your family have big traditions around these yeah, or is

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Speaker 4: it more like, uh, we just throw a dollar under

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Speaker 4: the pillow for you know or something.

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Speaker 3: No, it was Christmas definitely. That was the one to

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Speaker 3: look forward to all year.

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Speaker 4: Okay, what did that look like? So tell me a

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Speaker 4: little bit about do you remember any gift that you

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Speaker 4: got in your childhood that you can remember that you're

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Speaker 4: excited about.

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Speaker 3: I remember my mom would always wrap things really beautifully,

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Speaker 3: and so it was just you just would shake them

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Speaker 3: and try to figure out what was in them for

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Speaker 3: the week leading up to Christmas, and I remember this

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Speaker 3: is so silly I got a Michael Jackson record.

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Speaker 1: I was stoked about.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, that would have been so good. Would

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Speaker 4: you remember if it was thriller or thriller? Oh yeah,

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Speaker 4: that would have been literally my favorite gift because we

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Speaker 4: Billy Jean. We used to like go to the roller rink.

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Speaker 4: So Michael Jackson record, and you did you get that

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Speaker 4: from your parents or say?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's what I don't really remember.

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Speaker 5: It feels like a sister gift. No, think it doesn't

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Speaker 5: seem like a me would buy you.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I'm mistaken.

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Speaker 3: She did buy me some piggy slippers, though, I remember that.

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Speaker 4: Oh I love that, And I will say that maybe

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Speaker 4: that's just a really good mother who's like, like, right now,

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Speaker 4: I'm a good mother. I like woke my son up

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Speaker 4: with Playboy Cardis album dropped. So maybe she just that. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: maybe this was like the Playboy Cardi album drop of

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Speaker 4: the eighties. Okay, so that's well. And then how many

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Speaker 4: siblings did you have? How many other people were getting

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Speaker 4: gifts around that time?

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Speaker 3: Three sisters in the house at that time?

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Speaker 4: Oh wow? So okay, So in thirty seconds I learned

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Speaker 4: that Jenny had a robust family that her parents were together,

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Speaker 4: that Christmas was a tradition. So I'm starting to learn

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Speaker 4: stuff about you that you like, Michael Jackson. So that's

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Speaker 4: really fun. So love, Yes, let's do it with you.

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Speaker 4: Let's just keep going until we stop. Dave stop. Oh okay,

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Speaker 4: this one is hard questions, right, hard question, hard questions?

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Speaker 4: So anything off limits in your childhood? Like how did

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Speaker 4: you learn about the birds and the bees? Did you

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Speaker 4: have any difficult conversations with your parents? Do you remember

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Speaker 4: any anybody? Did you just sort of sail through have

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Speaker 4: to figure it out yourself? Like do you remember any

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Speaker 4: adult actually answering hard questions for you?

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Speaker 5: I'm just curious, no, no.

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Speaker 4: No, okay, elaborate.

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Speaker 5: I'm trying to think of all the questions that I

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Speaker 5: would have had.

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Speaker 1: You didn't ask your mom and dad like tough questions.

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Speaker 2: Well I.

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Speaker 4: Didn't, La.

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Speaker 2: I just later found out that my mom would embellish things.

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Speaker 4: Give me an example, what do you mean?

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Speaker 2: God?

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Speaker 5: Okay, So I remember I was like twelve years old

386
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Speaker 5: and we were walking into a it was like a

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Speaker 5: kmart or Roses.

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Speaker 2: It was Roses on the East Coast, and I heard.

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Speaker 5: A different language and I was like, oh, like, what

390
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,199
Speaker 5: is this or whatever, and I was like, Mom, what

391
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Speaker 5: language is that? And she's like, I don't know, but

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Speaker 5: it's illegal to speak a foreign language in America.

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Speaker 2: And I instantly, like at a young age.

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Speaker 5: I remember at twelve years old, was like, well, that's fault,

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Speaker 5: that's not true.

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Speaker 4: You knew she was.

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Speaker 2: I was like, she's crazy.

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Speaker 4: Wow.

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Speaker 5: So I kind of like, you know, had that example

400
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 5: at and then like the birds and bees talk. I

401
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,680
Speaker 5: remember I asked my dad something, but my dad would

402
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Speaker 5: always be like, you know, let's talk about sports. He

403
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:04,720
Speaker 5: would change the subject.

404
00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,360
Speaker 2: Well, how the how the Phillies? Yeah, the Eagles are

405
00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:07,800
Speaker 2: They're gonna be good this year.

406
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Speaker 5: So, I mean I just kind of And I had

407
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Speaker 5: two older sisters. I probably I had some conversations with them.

408
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Speaker 4: That's my favorite configuration from now on. If I had

409
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Speaker 4: to start over, I'd only marry a man that had

410
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Speaker 4: two older sisters.

411
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, and they they just I would ask

412
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Speaker 5: them a lot of advice with girls, so and they

413
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Speaker 5: would always set me straight with that, well, suit, what

414
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Speaker 5: do I do?

415
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Speaker 2: And this girl, this girl doesn't like you.

416
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Speaker 4: Are you close to your sisters?

417
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

418
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Speaker 4: I would say, so, Well, I love that that you

419
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Speaker 4: had these other adult figures.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, my oldest yeah, yeah, my oldest sister. She was

421
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Speaker 2: I was like sixteen, Oh yeah, I was. She was

422
00:22:00,840 --> 00:22:04,199
Speaker 2: sixteen when I was born, sixteen seventeen. So she was

423
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Speaker 2: like kind of my mother because she knew how my

424
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Speaker 2: mother was.

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Speaker 5: She always kind of protected me. And she got married

426
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Speaker 5: when she was like nineteen.

427
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Speaker 2: So wow, Like I was always at her house.

428
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and she didn't tell you that it was illegal

429
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Speaker 4: to speak.

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Speaker 5: Yeah white the opposite, right, well, said just don't listen

431
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Speaker 5: to anything, chlo.

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Speaker 4: Right, right. Well, it's actually funny. When I first met

433
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Speaker 4: my husband, Seth, he said something like that to me.

434
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Speaker 4: You know how women are, They just don't understand things.

435
00:22:35,560 --> 00:22:37,520
Speaker 4: I was like, what are you talking about? I'm like,

436
00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 4: I understand a lot of things.

437
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 5: But again, which is like from my father has told

438
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:43,920
Speaker 5: me the same thing.

439
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

440
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:46,560
Speaker 2: Growing up, my dad.

441
00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 5: You know, he would be like, well, just don't say anything,

442
00:22:51,040 --> 00:22:53,880
Speaker 5: and then you just don't cause a hassle because it's just.

443
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:56,639
Speaker 2: She's not going to understand.

444
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 5: Until then me growing up going like, well why would

445
00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 5: I communicate something like that?

446
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:03,200
Speaker 2: They just don't understand.

447
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:07,120
Speaker 4: And then as your parents, right, yeah, how do you write?

448
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:08,639
Speaker 4: So you were just about to say that, so breaking

449
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 4: those cycles?

450
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 5: Yeah, because I see my parents' cycle and I don't

451
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,359
Speaker 5: want that, even though that they're still together to this day.

452
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 5: I mean, it's it's just something that was you know,

453
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,080
Speaker 5: my sisters and I we just kind of were like.

454
00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 4: No, you're communicating to the and sharing your communication to

455
00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 4: the world as opposed to the opposite of what you

456
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 4: just said, which is that you were told not to

457
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 4: say anything. So what a difference. What a cycle breaking

458
00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,720
Speaker 4: move you're making just in the in the in the

459
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,680
Speaker 4: doing of this right, And so I think it's yeah, good,

460
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 4: was it? Sorry? What were you're saying?

461
00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:49,159
Speaker 5: No, I was going to say, like, I mean, I

462
00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 5: approach her with a lot of different questions and things

463
00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:54,800
Speaker 5: like that that I don't think my father would ever

464
00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 5: really speak to my mother about, you know, certain stuff

465
00:23:58,000 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 5: like that.

466
00:23:59,880 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 4: I love these evolved, yes, But what I love is that,

467
00:24:04,960 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 4: you know, I'm not sure even if we were sitting

468
00:24:07,800 --> 00:24:10,320
Speaker 4: together at a dinner that I would feel as close

469
00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:13,159
Speaker 4: to both of you just by being able to ask

470
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 4: that type of question. Rating two cards, just pulling two

471
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:20,439
Speaker 4: random cards. We didn't prectice in advance, we didn't I

472
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 4: gave I didn't even tell the producer that I was

473
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,920
Speaker 4: going to bring the cards out, but I think the

474
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 4: spotan eighty is so beautiful. And I think even for

475
00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 4: your own children, a people do like to hear your

476
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,600
Speaker 4: stories as they get older. Maybe if they're twelve or thirteen,

477
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 4: my son would not want my stories right now except

478
00:24:37,400 --> 00:24:38,919
Speaker 4: for to use them against me. He uses all my

479
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,679
Speaker 4: stories against me. But as they get older, Jenny, like

480
00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:44,400
Speaker 4: where your kids are now, you know this idea that

481
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,359
Speaker 4: they can learn a lot about you, that this work

482
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 4: we're talking about isn't just unloading the dishwasher, which is

483
00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 4: where we started. It's really our humanity. It's not just

484
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 4: chores and housework. Yes, it's an organization, but a healthy

485
00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:01,880
Speaker 4: organization has really important things besides just systems and who

486
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 4: does what. It has boundaries where you respect the other person,

487
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 4: you go to the other person, and it has communication,

488
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 4: which is what you're talking about. And if you don't

489
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 4: have all three of those things, then it really can't

490
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:15,359
Speaker 4: be a healthy organization. And that's what I'm hoping the

491
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,120
Speaker 4: next generation can learn for sure.

492
00:25:17,119 --> 00:25:20,199
Speaker 3: And I think it also has the component of giving

493
00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 3: a shit about Yes, the other people that you work with,

494
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,440
Speaker 3: basically in the house.

495
00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: That's so yeah, very true.

496
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I think about the opposite of giving a shit.

497
00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 4: It's when, like you said, you have this silent expectation

498
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 4: in your head and then that thing doesn't get done.

499
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 4: You know, if I had picked a card, one of

500
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 4: the ones I was really triggering when I would pick

501
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 4: it and tell my story was about garbage, because giving

502
00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 4: a shit to me is taking the garbage out. I

503
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 4: grew up in the Lower East Side of Manhattan and

504
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 4: Alphabet City. There were a lot of cockroaches and water bugs,

505
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 4: and I would help my brother. I was. My mother

506
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,320
Speaker 4: was a single mother, I told you earlier, and she

507
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:06,640
Speaker 4: worked nights, so my brother had autism and other problems.

508
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 4: So I would help him get to bed, get him water,

509
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 4: go into the kitchen. I had my routine. I close

510
00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 4: my eyes, click on the lights. The cockroaches and water

511
00:26:15,000 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 4: bugs would scatter. Then I would go fill up the

512
00:26:17,560 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 4: water in the same because we didn't have water bottles

513
00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:22,400
Speaker 4: back then, and then take it to him in his room.

514
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 4: And what I remember about that was our garbage was

515
00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 4: just like a takeout bag. I got a knob and

516
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 4: it would always like spill out over to our little

517
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:35,680
Speaker 4: apartment common area, and so I think for me when

518
00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:38,240
Speaker 4: Seth would, as Dave was saying, when you wake up

519
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:40,960
Speaker 4: and maybe those dishes are not unloaded or you're waiting

520
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,760
Speaker 4: to see what someone else is doing for me. In

521
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 4: my mind, I hadn't told Seth this. He never knew

522
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:49,439
Speaker 4: this about me. But I would just see when the

523
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,040
Speaker 4: garbage would overflow or when that the bag the liner

524
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 4: wasn't put back into the garbage, and I would become

525
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,600
Speaker 4: Set's garbage stalker. And I think it took me a

526
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 4: while time to understand that instead of just saying put

527
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 4: the liner back in, put the liner back.

528
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:05,919
Speaker 2: In before you even like communicate it.

529
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 4: Right, like with it right. And so he was like,

530
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 4: you were literally a garbage stalker. And so I think

531
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:14,080
Speaker 4: it took the why conversations around fair play where I'm

532
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 4: trying to say, invest in the practice like you do

533
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 4: with exercise. One of the most depressing surveys I ever did,

534
00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:24,720
Speaker 4: I did it on purpose, was I asked over a

535
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 4: thousand people what their most important practices. I did it

536
00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 4: very vaguely, and I got some interesting answers, as you

537
00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 4: can imagine, like all the way from exercise to like ayahuasca.

538
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 4: But not one of those thousand people said that communication

539
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 4: was their most important practice, and I did it on

540
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: purpose so I could have that stat because I think

541
00:27:45,320 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 4: it sounds important that nobody said communication. But I think

542
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 4: what we're what I've realized being a mediator for really

543
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 4: difficult families and also developing the fair play system of

544
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 4: discussing these hundred cards that go into running your home

545
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,359
Speaker 4: and family, is that the key is really that communication

546
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 4: is a practice. And the more you can practice when

547
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 4: emotion is low and cognition is high, the more that

548
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 4: you get better at knowing how to communicate with Jenny,

549
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 4: the more I would get you get better at knowing

550
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 4: how to communicate with Dave. It's a practice, just like

551
00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:17,920
Speaker 4: the more you get better at progressive overload when you

552
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:18,920
Speaker 4: lift weights.

553
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 2: What's a good drill?

554
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 4: Yes, you want to know the drill?

555
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 5: Yeah?

556
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 2: I mean you know, I work at golf. I work

557
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 2: on the drill. It's like, what is a good drill

558
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: for that? That's a great point.

559
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: Number one is I'll ask I'll do it as a

560
00:28:34,119 --> 00:28:36,959
Speaker 4: diverse newly what there's three steps. Again, we didn't make

561
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: the we didn't know we were going to get here.

562
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 4: But I think it's a fun way to to play Okay,

563
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 4: So I want to know, Jenny, if Dave had to say,

564
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 4: what your communication? So step one is knowing your own

565
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 4: communication vulnerability. It's very important because it allows you to

566
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 4: have humor in the moment once you know it. So

567
00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: if Dave had to say about you, like reverselywed, what

568
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 4: your communication vulnerability is, what do you think he would say?

569
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 4: And I'm going to give you some options? Would he say?

570
00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:10,200
Speaker 4: What do you say avoidance? What do you say all

571
00:29:10,360 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 4: or nothing? Like you never do this, you always do that.

572
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 4: What do you say tone like this is a nail

573
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 4: on the chalkboard issue? What do you say ignoring where

574
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 4: you just want the issue to go away and not

575
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 4: bring it up. That's like another version of avoidance. Would

576
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,720
Speaker 4: he say verbal assassin, which is when you say things

577
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 4: in a really nice tone, like Dave, you're the best,

578
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 4: but you know did you know you're like the worst

579
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 4: stepfathers father of all time? Like I didn't know that

580
00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:39,920
Speaker 4: it was going to happen? How'd you get this bad?

581
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 4: That happens a lot and to a lot of couples,

582
00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 4: So what would what would he say about you?

583
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 3: I think I would have to pick all of them

584
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:56,160
Speaker 3: because I am ann not a great communicator.

585
00:29:56,680 --> 00:30:00,040
Speaker 5: Okay, I would say that, I would say avoidance would.

586
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 4: Be problem avoid Do you have an example?

587
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 5: She'll say things, I didn't want to talk about that

588
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 5: because I didn't want to see your reaction, which is

589
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 5: making an assumption. But yes, have I done that in

590
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 5: the past, My am I reactionary?

591
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: Yes, Like for instance, this ties back into household things.

592
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,040
Speaker 4: Yes, can you.

593
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 3: Help me fix the bathroom door handle?

594
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 2: Mm hmmm, which I might go.

595
00:30:32,240 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: Right, that's the sound, the sound, and then you.

596
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 5: Go right now, and then she goes yeah, yeah.

597
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, no.

598
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,719
Speaker 3: Usually I say whenever you have time, whenever you can

599
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 3: get to.

600
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: It, whenever you have time, or but it feels.

601
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:52,000
Speaker 1: Like right now, you feel like it's right now, but

602
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm not. You're assuming that I want to done right.

603
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 2: Yes, you're probably.

604
00:30:56,080 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 4: Right, which again I do love because that is all

605
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 4: things that I think everyone's gonna laugh.

606
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 5: And she wants and her brain her she wants me

607
00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: to be like, can you do this? And she was, yeah,

608
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: I want to do it right now.

609
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:14,440
Speaker 3: I love that.

610
00:31:14,480 --> 00:31:17,600
Speaker 5: I want to do.

611
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 4: That, And here's my notebook where I'm going to write

612
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 4: it down and I will not forget and it'll get done.

613
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 4: To the timely manner that that is very very very common.

614
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 4: But I do, I do. But but you see what though,

615
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:32,480
Speaker 4: what happens with avoidance. With avoidant people, people where that's

616
00:31:32,520 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 4: their vulnerability, then they'll start to say things like well,

617
00:31:35,680 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 4: I might as well just do it myself, or I

618
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 4: might as well not even bring it up to Dave,

619
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 4: and then the rage and resentment start. So avoiding people,

620
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,160
Speaker 4: rage and resentment, you know, are pretty close to the

621
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,800
Speaker 4: avoidance because it doesn't go away sadly from avoiding it.

622
00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 4: It just means that it sort of it just builds

623
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:57,480
Speaker 4: and then it can often explode at some you know

624
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 4: later time. Yeah, yeah, so again. And so that's number

625
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 4: one is knowing. So let's do the opposite. So, Dave,

626
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 4: what would Jenny say about you? You think? Do you

627
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 4: remember the choices?

628
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: Yeah? I know, she'd say tone.

629
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,239
Speaker 3: Okay, I'd say tone because I get anxious when you

630
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 3: have that tone of like you don't want to be

631
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: talking about something, and it's like you're like annoyed with

632
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,440
Speaker 3: me by even me asking the question.

633
00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 4: But I love you both one. It's the tone that

634
00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 4: shows you're both.

635
00:32:27,600 --> 00:32:27,880
Speaker 2: Sound.

636
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 5: I think it's because I get a little like my

637
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 5: tone gets loud because I'm trying to like get all

638
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:39,760
Speaker 5: these thoughts out and be defensive or trying to make

639
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 5: someone understand, so emphatically, my tone goes up and it

640
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 5: doesn't stay.

641
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 4: Right with sound effects like uh yeah yeah yeah.

642
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 3: Shaking of the head too as he walks away is

643
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,920
Speaker 3: another like oh man, see I should have never even

644
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:57,040
Speaker 3: asked him to fix the damn doorknob.

645
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,560
Speaker 4: Right, Okay? That that can feel like nails on the

646
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 4: chalkboard when someone's tone is frustrating, And I think that

647
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:07,080
Speaker 4: that's again what's what's fun about that number one step

648
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:08,640
Speaker 4: is that it doesn't mean it's going to go away,

649
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 4: but at least you want to like you know your

650
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:13,640
Speaker 4: but you know your patterns, so that that's step one.

651
00:33:14,200 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 4: So for me, it's always tone like seth with joke.

652
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 4: You know, you could be saying like let's go have sex,

653
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:21,200
Speaker 4: but I but he doesn't want me to say anything

654
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: because it's always in a tone of like a drill

655
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 4: sergeant like now those parties, he's like, I have no

656
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 4: idea extent, yeah not you. Your tone is just so bad.

657
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 4: And then he becomes incredibly avoided, and I'm like, where

658
00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,600
Speaker 4: the fuck did he go? And then he's hiding, so

659
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 4: so that that that becomes a pattern.

660
00:33:46,160 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 5: She would say of of I'm avoidant too, Yeah, okay,

661
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 5: because I mean I think I think to a certain extent,

662
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 5: everybody is like that because you just in the moment,

663
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:55,960
Speaker 5: you don't really.

664
00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:00,360
Speaker 2: I mean, because you try to like, am I really

665
00:34:00,400 --> 00:34:00,840
Speaker 2: feeling this?

666
00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:07,200
Speaker 5: Is it really worth it? Are my feelings just unnecessary feelings?

667
00:34:07,320 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 5: Or should I really have a communication with us?

668
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 4: But what I like about that is if you if

669
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 4: you're assuming that there's avoidance also and not assuming, but

670
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 4: you're you're recognizing that there's avoidance also in some of

671
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,600
Speaker 4: the ways that can you know, vacillate with tone to avoidance.

672
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,920
Speaker 4: What I think is interesting is both of those avoidance

673
00:34:26,960 --> 00:34:30,520
Speaker 4: and tone have the same root of the vulnerability, which

674
00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 4: is what I like is it makes it easy for

675
00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 4: us to go to step two. So the root of

676
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 4: avoidance and tone is to not have the feedback in

677
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:46,400
Speaker 4: the moment. So there was something about that that the

678
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 4: asking you to do the thing right. And so when

679
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 4: you have when you're an avoidant communicator or you are

680
00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 4: a tone communicator, typically you're giving feedback in the moment,

681
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,000
Speaker 4: whether that's disappearing and and having a different reaction than

682
00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:07,839
Speaker 4: your actual reaction, or you're initially reactive, like like you said,

683
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 4: or why you bring this up now, Like it's hard

684
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 4: for avoidant people and people who have tone issues to

685
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,759
Speaker 4: do something in the moment that's productive. So let's just

686
00:35:19,800 --> 00:35:21,839
Speaker 4: say that. So step two is to recognize what your

687
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 4: vulnerability means about the types of patterns you get into.

688
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: So I'm going to say that that's a feedback in

689
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 4: a not a productive feedback in the moment pattern. And

690
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:34,320
Speaker 4: so then step three, if you're looking at that program

691
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 4: how to get better at golf, the third step would be,

692
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 4: you know, whether it's great that you do the podcast together,

693
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,280
Speaker 4: but because you're doing this, you already have this idea

694
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:49,760
Speaker 4: of structured conversations when emotion is low and cognition is high.

695
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,200
Speaker 4: So do do your a family check in, a communication

696
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,319
Speaker 4: check in right before the podcast or right after, or

697
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 4: when you're in a place where you have short term

698
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,640
Speaker 4: reward substitution that's what we call it as economists, like

699
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,359
Speaker 4: you're bringing alcohol with you or a cookie dough. But

700
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:07,640
Speaker 4: this idea that there are times for avoidant and tone

701
00:36:08,560 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 4: people to invest in low emotion, high cognition conversations and

702
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 4: so that's what I would say. You want to get

703
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 4: better at golf, make sure you have that fifteen minute

704
00:36:20,520 --> 00:36:22,759
Speaker 4: check in a week. Right, Well, you say we're in,

705
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 4: we're highly We have a lot of cognition right now

706
00:36:26,680 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 4: and very little emotion.

707
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 5: So you're kind of saying when you recognize it, it's

708
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 5: kind of like my brain imagines things like it's like

709
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:35,840
Speaker 5: a snow globe.

710
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,680
Speaker 2: You know, in that moment, kind of get shaken up.

711
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,759
Speaker 5: Yes, your triggers are flying all over the place and

712
00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 5: you're trying to manage him as best you can.

713
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 2: But maybe in that moment.

714
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:52,799
Speaker 5: If I fail at my reaction to what she's asking me,

715
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 5: is it like we're saying, like take a time out, Well,

716
00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 5: let's get to this later.

717
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 4: You can even use the word snowglo. I love that,

718
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 4: Like this was not I need a snow globe moment,

719
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,759
Speaker 4: or really just what Seth and I did in the

720
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 4: beginning to practice this and now we're better, except for

721
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 4: you know, you can always regress. I regressed yesterday. I

722
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:18,320
Speaker 4: have a teenager. Seth's ownership is of his all the homework,

723
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 4: and he wasn't on his tutor, and I like lost it.

724
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 4: I was like you're the worst. You know, Dad, that

725
00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:27,800
Speaker 4: I went verbal assassin like you know, but typically we're

726
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 4: you know, we've been practicing fair play for a long time.

727
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 4: So typically I said, I did my tone thing, I'm sorry,

728
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:37,920
Speaker 4: you know, and then I took a break. But typically

729
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,719
Speaker 4: what I like to do is write things down so

730
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 4: the person that is going who may have that tone

731
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 4: issue or doesn't want to approach something in a moment.

732
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 4: What's nice is if you know that there's going to

733
00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 4: be accountability and trust in that check in later on.

734
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,399
Speaker 4: If you feel that safety and you can agree to that,

735
00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:02,799
Speaker 4: then you if over time what happens is you can

736
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 4: write things down and not deliver that feedback in the moment,

737
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,040
Speaker 4: which is actually really cool because it's happened to me

738
00:38:09,120 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 4: many weeks where we'll come to sit down about something

739
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 4: and I'll have things in like all caps, Like this

740
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 4: happened to me one week where just said yellow rag

741
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 4: in all caps and I literally had absolutely no idea,

742
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,680
Speaker 4: like complete senior moment, like I had zero. I had

743
00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 4: no idea what yellow rag is. But I was thinking, oh,

744
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 4: that's good. It's an all caps that's like me yelling

745
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 4: on the page. So it would have avoided the yellow

746
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:36,359
Speaker 4: rag argument because it obviously wasn't relevant to me two

747
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 4: or three days later. However, maybe the fact that the

748
00:38:39,320 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 4: dishwasher is never unloaded is still bothering me.

749
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 2: Right, It's good to have a weekly check in. I

750
00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 2: think the family as a whole.

751
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 5: I think like, yes, we are four people, like sometimes

752
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:55,160
Speaker 5: five with boyfriends here, but we need to have a

753
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 5: family unit check in. I mean, I'm having a staff

754
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 5: meeting next week. Need to do that for the family.

755
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I like for you to do it both

756
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 4: with each other first and you're aligned, because sometimes when

757
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 4: the other people sort of come in, it can derail

758
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 4: what the unit your joint values are together for how

759
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 4: as Jenny said, because there's another home out there with

760
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:19,839
Speaker 4: different values and you copare it. It's nice for you

761
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:24,239
Speaker 4: and Dave to align each week on your priorities. And

762
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,399
Speaker 4: then of course you can bring the other members in

763
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 4: as well. But I think saying that this is at practice.

764
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 4: You know. One of the funny things to me is

765
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 4: when I do it as an analogy to exercise, Like

766
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 4: you would never go into your doctor's office and they said, like,

767
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 4: do you feel fit, and you'd say, yeah, I like exercise.

768
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 4: Once in two thousand and five. But that's sort of

769
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 4: how we view the home. Like I had a conversation,

770
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,280
Speaker 4: yeah once about the dishes.

771
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 3: It's like, we talk about having conversations all the time,

772
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:54,600
Speaker 3: but we don't.

773
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,760
Speaker 4: We don't actually have them. Yeah right, you don't actually

774
00:39:57,840 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 4: have them.

775
00:39:58,360 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 3: Also, many of the comp are going on in each

776
00:40:01,920 --> 00:40:05,360
Speaker 3: of our individual brains, and I'm like, wait, are you

777
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 3: thinking something that you want to tell me? Because a

778
00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:09,960
Speaker 3: lot of the times he and I will both be

779
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,399
Speaker 3: just going about our business, getting all of our work

780
00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,680
Speaker 3: done and having these important conversations but not actually verbalizing

781
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,040
Speaker 3: them with our partner.

782
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,799
Speaker 4: That's really funny, the invisible conversations in the brain. And

783
00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 4: it is true because you do sort of assume that

784
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,160
Speaker 4: you've said it. I don't know. It's a very strange

785
00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 4: thing about how you communicate with a partner because you

786
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,279
Speaker 4: do sort of assume that either they should know, or

787
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 4: that you've said it already, or that you said it

788
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,439
Speaker 4: once that you wanted the garbage liner to go back,

789
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 4: and then now I'm going to hold it against Seth

790
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 4: for the rest of his life. It's not fair. Again,

791
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 4: Like if I hadn't exercise for a week, I wouldn't

792
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 4: expect to get back on the treadmill and be at

793
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,440
Speaker 4: the same level of performance as even if I took

794
00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 4: a week off. But yet we have these conversations again

795
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,680
Speaker 4: in our head and then once maybe a year with

796
00:40:56,719 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 4: our partners, and we expect that we're going to have

797
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,080
Speaker 4: relational health health. And I think that's what's so hard.

798
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,840
Speaker 4: So many people now are so focused on functional health

799
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,800
Speaker 4: and they're obsessed with these metrics. But I'm going to

800
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 4: just say one of the most interesting things I ever

801
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 4: learned in my fair play journey was a study from

802
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 4: Robert Waldinger's project at Harvard. He studied men, and this

803
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 4: is important for you, especially Dave, to listen to. He

804
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,480
Speaker 4: studied men over seventy five years. They've been looking at

805
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:29,760
Speaker 4: men and they control for everything smoking, poverty, ethnicity, genetics,

806
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 4: and what they found was there was actually really only

807
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 4: one predictor of whether men were alive at eighty five,

808
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:39,120
Speaker 4: and that was the quality of their relationships at fifty five.

809
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: So everyone's like doctor Atilla and this and I'm going

810
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,799
Speaker 4: to maximize my VO two MAX. What I wish men

811
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 4: especially understood was that instead of working so hard on

812
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 4: your VO two max, if you want to live, if

813
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 4: you want longevity, if you want life and health span,

814
00:41:56,160 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 4: invest in the quality of your relationships.

815
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that work is some of the time the

816
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:05,680
Speaker 3: most difficult work.

817
00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 4: I think it is the most difficult work. People always

818
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 4: say that this work needs a trigger warning, like this

819
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:12,880
Speaker 4: episode will need a trigger warning, because I think so

820
00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 4: many people will say I can't talk to my partner

821
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,760
Speaker 4: about these issues, and it seems so many.

822
00:42:19,600 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 3: People it's just it's just how do we divvy up

823
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:28,480
Speaker 3: the household responsibilities? But emotions can really charge the conversation

824
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,160
Speaker 3: and cause avoidance, cause tone, all the things that we're

825
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 3: talking about. So how do we not avoid the conversation.

826
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 4: Well, the first thing I just want to say is

827
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,440
Speaker 4: back to that formula. There's a secret formula, right, it's boundaries, systems,

828
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 4: and communication. But I want to say one more thing

829
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 4: about communication, because you just brought up avoidance, and I

830
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,800
Speaker 4: want to just say I thought this was really interesting

831
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: during the pandemic, given that fair Play had launched in

832
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:00,879
Speaker 4: twenty nineteen, so I was arguing it vos that year,

833
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 4: right before the pandemic, that the home is an organization

834
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 4: and that our home and our work spheres are not

835
00:43:06,200 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 4: that different. And then bizarrely, like two weeks later, our

836
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,880
Speaker 4: home and work spheres were not different at all. But

837
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 4: during the pandemic, there was a group that someone referred

838
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 4: me to out of the UK that it was called

839
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 4: the Reasons I Hate my partner and kids. During COVID

840
00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:28,879
Speaker 4: there's this big, like monster like graphic design. And this

841
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 4: person alerted me to this woman who wrote in this

842
00:43:34,560 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 4: chat it's twenty seven thousand members at the time. I

843
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 4: wonder if it's still active. I wonder what it evolved into.

844
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 4: But it was twenty seven thousand members. And this woman said,

845
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 4: if my husband dies during COVID, it's not going to

846
00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 4: be because of the disease. It's going to be because

847
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 4: of me.

848
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was a lot of like separation and divorce,

849
00:43:57,120 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 5: oh for a.

850
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 4: Sure, for sure. But it was so funny was that

851
00:44:01,120 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 4: I reached out to her though on DM and I said, hey,

852
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:08,880
Speaker 4: I'm a researcher on gender, division of labor and resentment

853
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 4: and communication. I want to know how do you communicate

854
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,920
Speaker 4: with your partner about domestic life. And this woman wrote back,

855
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,680
Speaker 4: I don't communicate with my partner about domestics life. This

856
00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 4: is my safe space, so can we just reflect on

857
00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,520
Speaker 4: the fact that publicly threatening to murder her partner in

858
00:44:26,560 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 4: front of twenty seven thousand strangers felt safer to her

859
00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 4: than talking directly about these issues. Wild, that's how hard

860
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 4: this is. So I just want everybody out there to

861
00:44:39,600 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 4: understand it's not just a why can't you discuss who's

862
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,520
Speaker 4: taking the dishes? We started with a perfect example of like,

863
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 4: is this really about who unloves the dishwasher? No, the

864
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 4: presenting problem is never the real problem. So it's not

865
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 4: about the dishwasher or anything like garbage or even the

866
00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 4: hard questions. This is about how we want to relate

867
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 4: to each other and our humanity. And that's why I

868
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:02,240
Speaker 4: said it's this. It has to be a secret formula

869
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 4: of investing in a practice of these systems the communication

870
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 4: check ins those Emotion is low, cognition is high, and

871
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 4: also boundaries, which is you respect each other's time enough

872
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 4: so that you're willing to sit down. That's what people forget,

873
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,759
Speaker 4: like nobody wants to be the nag or the like

874
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: it's time for our check in, And it sounds terrible.

875
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 4: Most people have to say, you know what, we respect

876
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,960
Speaker 4: each other's time enough that we're both there. We treat

877
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,280
Speaker 4: it like an important meeting and we really don't miss

878
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 4: that investment time.

879
00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:35,760
Speaker 2: You want to get that on the calendar. Yeah, yes,

880
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 2: weekly check.

881
00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: We need our weekly check in.

882
00:45:40,520 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. How do.

883
00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 3: Now, for people that are listening, how do we find

884
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:58,920
Speaker 3: the balance with household duties in our marriage like in

885
00:45:59,000 --> 00:45:59,399
Speaker 3: our home?

886
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:01,279
Speaker 1: How do we find it? What's the key?

887
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 4: There is one important key that again I've been studying

888
00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 4: this for ten years now. You have to start stop

889
00:46:07,560 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 4: looking at fifty to fifty as any sort of metric

890
00:46:11,960 --> 00:46:16,320
Speaker 4: for a marriage. It literally is this fifty to fifty

891
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 4: we're equal partners. I don't know where that came from,

892
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:24,120
Speaker 4: but it's highly, highly toxic because it means that you're

893
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:28,480
Speaker 4: in the scorekeeping disaster of like, well I did the

894
00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 4: dishes last yesterday, so you should do them today. It

895
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 4: just it becomes really really horrific and toxic and so compared,

896
00:46:36,280 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 4: we have to burn this idea of fifty to fifty

897
00:46:38,680 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 4: and we have to move instead to the way that

898
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 4: it Marian and Hermazon group does it, or corporations do it.

899
00:46:45,600 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 4: And what we found over ten years and this is

900
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 4: now actually we have it in a quantitative study that's

901
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 4: published in the Journal of women's mental health, that women's

902
00:46:52,800 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 4: burnout and men's relationship satisfaction go up if you move

903
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 4: to an ownership mindset. I mean by that, Well, you

904
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,000
Speaker 4: have the fair Play cards, and again for people who

905
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 4: can't afford them, we're a nonprofit. We have them at

906
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:09,080
Speaker 4: fairplaylife dot org. You can put them the show notes.

907
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,520
Speaker 4: People can find all of our resources. But what we

908
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:15,319
Speaker 4: would do with these is understand that I'm giving you

909
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:18,360
Speaker 4: the resources to have these conversations. There are one hundred

910
00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:22,160
Speaker 4: cards that make up a home organization. God forbid. Hopefully

911
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 4: you don't have to play with them all because some

912
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 4: of them are wild cards like death or an aging parent,

913
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 4: where you'll have to come back to the table. Most

914
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 4: people are playing with kids about seventy five cards. Without kids,

915
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:39,280
Speaker 4: you're playing with about fifty fifty five cards, or maybe

916
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,359
Speaker 4: it can be in the eighties amount of cards you're

917
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 4: playing with. So you're starting with these tasks. So the

918
00:47:45,880 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 4: goal is not, oh, you hold forty and I hold

919
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 4: forty like that is absolutely not what we're looking at.

920
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,480
Speaker 4: What we're looking at is the key insight is how

921
00:47:55,520 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 4: did Mustard get your refrigerator? I'll give you, I'll tell

922
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,800
Speaker 4: you what I mean by asking that question with each card.

923
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 4: So that was the grocery's card, but for each card,

924
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 4: I asked how the proverbial how did mustard get in

925
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 4: your refrigerator? The old way was typically, and especially in

926
00:48:12,440 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 4: co parenting, because it's really hard when you're coming in.

927
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 4: Typically it was that the woman married to a man

928
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,759
Speaker 4: was saying to me, well, I know that Johnny, my

929
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 4: second son, likes yellow mustard, not anything else with his protein,

930
00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 4: otherwise he chokes. So in a project management framework, we

931
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 4: call that conception. In the workplace, we're paid big bucks

932
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 4: to notice new things, so that's the conception part. Then

933
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: women were the ones reporting that they monitor the mustard

934
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 4: for when it runs low, and that they get stakeholder

935
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 4: by in from their family about what they needed on

936
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:48,759
Speaker 4: the grocery list. We can map that to what we

937
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:52,280
Speaker 4: call the planning phase. Over ten years, what we realized

938
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 4: was that men were stepping in at the next phase.

939
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 4: They were going to the store to go buy the

940
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,120
Speaker 4: mustard day. But you're bringing home spicy djawn every fucking time.

941
00:49:05,280 --> 00:49:07,520
Speaker 4: And I asked you for yellow and.

942
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:10,600
Speaker 1: It says yellow mustard? What do you list?

943
00:49:10,760 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, what are you dumb? And then all of a sudden,

944
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:17,840
Speaker 4: here's my verbal assassin. Can you not read and then try.

945
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:18,400
Speaker 2: To make it better?

946
00:49:18,560 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 4: It's better, And so then what happens is we're losing again.

947
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 4: It's not about the mustard, but we're losing the thing

948
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:29,799
Speaker 4: an organization needs, which is accountability and trust. So if

949
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 4: you believe me that the home is an organization, then

950
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 4: you have to believe me that the two things you

951
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,720
Speaker 4: can't lose is accountability and trust. And so to restore

952
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:41,200
Speaker 4: accountability and trust, the one key is to move away

953
00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 4: from that fifty to fifty and to move towards ownership.

954
00:49:44,920 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 4: If I have dishes this week, I have dishes, as

955
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 4: my son say, that's from the secret oils that go

956
00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 4: in the dish drawer, all the way to unloading that

957
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:56,560
Speaker 4: dishwasher and going away and carrying through my mistake. If

958
00:49:56,600 --> 00:49:59,360
Speaker 4: it doesn't happen with laundry, I carry through many mistakes.

959
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,840
Speaker 4: I keep it in there, it smells like crap. I

960
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: forget to put it. I have to redo the cycle.

961
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 4: I'm carrying through lots lots of Laudroym mistakes. When it's

962
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 4: my turn, you don't hold these forever. You redeal at

963
00:50:10,440 --> 00:50:13,880
Speaker 4: your check in and then you just keep on going,

964
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 4: and so, like I said, I loved I'm a student

965
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,839
Speaker 4: by heart. I love doing homework with my sons. It

966
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 4: brought me so much joy until my kids turned thirteen

967
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 4: and I looked at my husband. I said, you either

968
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:29,600
Speaker 4: have two choices. Are in a low emotion and high

969
00:50:29,640 --> 00:50:32,520
Speaker 4: cognition conversation, not with that tone, but I basically said,

970
00:50:32,520 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 4: you can homeschool them, or you can keep them at

971
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 4: these schools, but you're I need you to take ownership

972
00:50:39,800 --> 00:50:42,880
Speaker 4: of the homework card. It is too hard for me.

973
00:50:42,920 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 4: It's too triggering. It's ruining my relationship with my sons.

974
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 4: I'm using verbal assassin with them. I'm calling them mediocre.

975
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 4: I'm saying, how are you my child? I'm doing the

976
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 4: same things that I did with with you. It is

977
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 4: not going well. I'll keep it with Anna. You can

978
00:50:56,520 --> 00:50:59,200
Speaker 4: always be a kid split as long as they're ownership.

979
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,400
Speaker 4: So I own Anna and he took over for the

980
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:05,000
Speaker 4: two kids, for the two boys. It doesn't mean I

981
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 4: don't even know who's holding which cards right now. I

982
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:08,959
Speaker 4: mean we know who's holding which I don't know who's

983
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 4: holding more cards. I just know that right now. That

984
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 4: was the hardest thing for me to hold. I said

985
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 4: to him, I will take dishes, I will take garbage,

986
00:51:16,680 --> 00:51:19,600
Speaker 4: I will take buying gifts, I will take hard questions.

987
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 4: I will take all these other things because I know

988
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,320
Speaker 4: how hard homework is and schoolwork is for our two sons,

989
00:51:26,000 --> 00:51:28,920
Speaker 4: and so that is how you have those types of conversations.

990
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:30,400
Speaker 4: So right now he's owning it.

991
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 3: And you're really suggesting to let go of that fifty

992
00:51:33,239 --> 00:51:34,280
Speaker 3: to fifty mentality.

993
00:51:34,320 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 1: I love that idea because.

994
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 4: You know what, when I was on my book tour,

995
00:51:39,000 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 4: Seth had a hundred of the cards. When you're filming,

996
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,920
Speaker 4: maybe Dave, right, yeah, yeah, Dave is holding one hundred

997
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 4: of the cards sometimes. Yeah, So that in the mornings,

998
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:50,799
Speaker 4: maybe you're he's sleeping in because he worked really late,

999
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 4: you're holding more of the cards. But as long as

1000
00:51:54,200 --> 00:51:57,840
Speaker 4: in advance you know what your responsibility is. It sounds

1001
00:51:57,880 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 4: daunting at first because I'm asking you to invest in

1002
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 4: looking at one hundred cards and deciding how to build

1003
00:52:03,040 --> 00:52:06,440
Speaker 4: your deck. But it's so valuable. We call it the

1004
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 4: present bias. You don't want to do it now because

1005
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 4: you think it's going to be easier later, but I

1006
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,800
Speaker 4: promise you the investment now makes it so much easier

1007
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,480
Speaker 4: later because I know who's doing what in my family,

1008
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:20,439
Speaker 4: and I can take accountability when I drop the ball.

1009
00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:23,399
Speaker 4: Like our minimums, I talk about the minimum standard of care.

1010
00:52:23,719 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 4: Just make sure there's a minimum standard of care for

1011
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:28,480
Speaker 4: Seth and I. For dinner, it's just having one vegetable

1012
00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 4: somewhere around, like maybe it's an iceberg piece of lettuce.

1013
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:35,520
Speaker 4: I grew up on Bodega food. So he said, you know,

1014
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 4: when you do dining, when you do meals, I notice

1015
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:42,320
Speaker 4: that it's Lucky Charms. Is the only green I've ever seen.

1016
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:44,680
Speaker 4: It's a green shamrock. And that's what our kidsy for dinner.

1017
00:52:45,200 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 4: Maybe make it so there's a little bit of vegetable

1018
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,840
Speaker 4: adjacent food, and when he makes dinner, he'll do like

1019
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 4: the Kraft mac and cheese and just like steam broccoli.

1020
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 4: But we have a minimum standard, so we understand the

1021
00:52:57,160 --> 00:53:00,279
Speaker 4: page we're on, and then you know, if you exceed it, great,

1022
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:02,319
Speaker 4: you want to make the gourmet meal, go for it.

1023
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,239
Speaker 4: But also he's saying to me in advance, it's not

1024
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 4: acceptable for you to keep feeding our kids coca pebbles

1025
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,960
Speaker 4: for dinner, which we pretty much did for a whole

1026
00:53:11,000 --> 00:53:15,080
Speaker 4: year until we had these conversations, and I didn't know

1027
00:53:15,160 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 4: he was raging about it internally because he's avoided and

1028
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:20,879
Speaker 4: he didn't feel like he could say anything, and he's

1029
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 4: like he hated the way our kids ate.

1030
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 3: I think I've heard you mentioned. I think I read

1031
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 3: it in the book The mental Load h that I

1032
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,400
Speaker 3: know I will go to work and I feel as

1033
00:53:33,480 --> 00:53:37,360
Speaker 3: if I'm still fully running the household, raising the kids

1034
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:40,799
Speaker 3: and working at the same time. And I know, I

1035
00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:44,240
Speaker 3: know every woman out there who is, you know, working

1036
00:53:44,320 --> 00:53:46,960
Speaker 3: and raising a family feels the same way like it does.

1037
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:49,359
Speaker 3: It never stops in our minds. How can we get

1038
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,920
Speaker 3: any freedom from feeling like we have to bear the

1039
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,640
Speaker 3: load of all the mental load of running the house

1040
00:53:56,040 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 3: and making sure things are in the cupboards that they

1041
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 3: need and that they're doctor's appointments are scheduled and handled,

1042
00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:07,160
Speaker 3: and the orchestration of just the logistics of running a

1043
00:54:07,200 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 3: family and a household.

1044
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 4: Well, here's the beauty, and this is what we learned

1045
00:54:12,440 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 4: from the study that we just published. Ownership alleviates the

1046
00:54:16,600 --> 00:54:22,080
Speaker 4: mental load. If you know that Dave had dishes for

1047
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 4: the week, or he had dinner for the week, then

1048
00:54:24,120 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 4: you're not thinking about it, right, You're not asking him

1049
00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 4: to go get the mustard, because you're still the one

1050
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:32,160
Speaker 4: getting the stakeholder buy in for what mustard you need.

1051
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 4: It is this, and I'll give you just a quick example.

1052
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:39,080
Speaker 4: So we had this couple during the pandemic. She was

1053
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 4: sick of the mental load for the caregiving what we

1054
00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 4: call caregiving and magic cards. Her partner was actually really

1055
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 4: great at what we call the house cards. He was

1056
00:54:46,680 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 4: great at dishes, He was really helpful with the mental

1057
00:54:49,000 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 4: load of dinner. But as we said earlier, those magic

1058
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 4: cards like the hard questions and whether or not your

1059
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 4: child's learning to ride a bike, what we call informal education,

1060
00:55:00,360 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 4: what we were talking about earlier with gifts caregiving like

1061
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 4: medical adenoids or your sinuses, back to that, whether your

1062
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 4: child's adnoids and their sinuses are being taken out. They

1063
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,480
Speaker 4: were falling on her, and so what she said was

1064
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 4: that she needed more help with that. Those cards. Yep,

1065
00:55:18,200 --> 00:55:20,239
Speaker 4: but she felt the mental load of taking care of

1066
00:55:20,280 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 4: his in laws, of remembering the tooth fairy, of remembering

1067
00:55:24,840 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 4: gestures of love, which is bringing the flowers to the recital,

1068
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:31,000
Speaker 4: felt too much for her. So she wanted him to

1069
00:55:31,000 --> 00:55:33,239
Speaker 4: own some of those cards. So the first one he

1070
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 4: decides to take on is the tooth Fairy, and I'll

1071
00:55:36,239 --> 00:55:38,480
Speaker 4: explain why this is important about the mental load. He

1072
00:55:38,520 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 4: takes on the tooth Fairy in advance in one of

1073
00:55:40,640 --> 00:55:43,319
Speaker 4: their check ins. I love this man, Richard, and so

1074
00:55:43,360 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 4: what happens. It was this daughter's second tooth. The tooth

1075
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:52,400
Speaker 4: Fairy doesn't come. So what they recognized was that she

1076
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:54,880
Speaker 4: had been holding the mental load up until that point,

1077
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 4: meaning before fair play. He would have said, it was

1078
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,959
Speaker 4: your fault. You didn't mind me to put the dollar

1079
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 4: under the pillow. That's a mental load, right. He was

1080
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:07,680
Speaker 4: gonna get up and do it, but she's gonna have

1081
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:10,640
Speaker 4: to set the alarm. She's gonna have to remember he

1082
00:56:10,680 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 4: does no no, but because he owned tooth Fairy. This

1083
00:56:14,640 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 4: is what she tells me happens. He says, I messed up.

1084
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 4: He takes accountability. So she's like, wait a second, I

1085
00:56:23,320 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 4: didn't have the mental loads. Something went wrong. But instead

1086
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:29,000
Speaker 4: of having to fix it, I'm hearing something different from

1087
00:56:29,000 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 4: my partner. He's taking accountability. So she gives him the

1088
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 4: space to say, Okay, it's still your mental load. I'm

1089
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,799
Speaker 4: gonna let you carry through the mistake. So he does

1090
00:56:38,960 --> 00:56:40,960
Speaker 4: and this is the fun part, he tells me. He

1091
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,040
Speaker 4: emails Toothfairy at gmail dot com. He writes, like, hey,

1092
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:46,919
Speaker 4: what's going on? You know the tooth is still onto

1093
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 4: the pillow? Like did we not put it in the

1094
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 4: right envelope? Do we need more neon colors?

1095
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 2: Like?

1096
00:56:52,160 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 4: He writes this letter in front of his daughter. What

1097
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 4: he didn't expect was he was actually going to get

1098
00:56:57,239 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 4: a response. During the day, he gets a response from

1099
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:03,240
Speaker 4: Toothfairy at gmail dot com. So thank god for whoever's

1100
00:57:03,320 --> 00:57:07,240
Speaker 4: doing that meant to load work out there saying sorry,

1101
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:11,399
Speaker 4: supply chain issues, I'm really late at picking up teeth. Yes,

1102
00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:15,080
Speaker 4: please live it in a bigger envelope, and then her

1103
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 4: the dad added, oh when she brings when she's late

1104
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 4: because of these issues, she brings double the money and fix.

1105
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 4: That's just what I'm saying is these are small changes,

1106
00:57:29,360 --> 00:57:32,320
Speaker 4: but that mental load was on him. He made a mistake,

1107
00:57:32,960 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 4: just like we all do. But he took the accountability

1108
00:57:35,600 --> 00:57:37,520
Speaker 4: to say I own this, and so I'm going to

1109
00:57:37,560 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 4: correct my mistake. They have this cool story. Now we

1110
00:57:42,120 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 4: now know that tooth fairygmail dot com is like a

1111
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,720
Speaker 4: real person, and that's that's what I mean, that's how

1112
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:49,960
Speaker 4: the mental load starts to ship when you get when

1113
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,200
Speaker 4: you empower somebody to own a task, to say I

1114
00:57:52,240 --> 00:57:57,120
Speaker 4: trust you, and if mistakes happen for that person to say,

1115
00:57:57,160 --> 00:57:59,920
Speaker 4: I love you enough so I'm not saying, well, if

1116
00:57:59,920 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 4: you you care about it more than I do, you

1117
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 4: should do it. Instead, it's you care about this so

1118
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:07,400
Speaker 4: much so I should do it. That's the mentality that

1119
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 4: sort of fair place starts to. When you practice, it

1120
00:58:10,240 --> 00:58:11,000
Speaker 4: starts to change.

1121
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:13,320
Speaker 1: Babe. We got to get these cards.

1122
00:58:13,440 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, they're fine.

1123
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 2: I like the cards a lot. I was down to

1124
00:58:16,680 --> 00:58:17,439
Speaker 2: do a couple more.

1125
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 4: We got to.

1126
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:21,600
Speaker 1: I think they need to live like in the living room.

1127
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,080
Speaker 2: Where I love the idea.

1128
00:58:24,160 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 5: I mean, we need to have a family check in.

1129
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 5: We need to do our check in.

1130
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:32,160
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yeah, and maybe do a couple more with

1131
00:58:32,200 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 4: each other, please, like before you even look at them, like,

1132
00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:37,920
Speaker 4: spend the time with the cards, just telling some more

1133
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:40,640
Speaker 4: stories before you say this is the system we have

1134
00:58:40,680 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 4: to get into. I loved your stories. I actually thought

1135
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,480
Speaker 4: your stories were really beautiful and profound, and I feel

1136
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 4: like again being with you for an hour, I would

1137
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:51,440
Speaker 4: know you more now than if we had been at

1138
00:58:51,440 --> 00:58:53,480
Speaker 4: a whole dinner party together. You know, I really do

1139
00:58:53,560 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 4: feel like the hard questions that we learned and those

1140
00:58:56,960 --> 00:59:00,040
Speaker 4: dynamics and you know what it looked like to to

1141
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,880
Speaker 4: to shake your presence and to get your you know,

1142
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 4: to get your Michael Jackson album. Like, those are things

1143
00:59:05,640 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 4: that you know that becomes part of our joint connection

1144
00:59:08,480 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 4: in humanity because we have those stories together.

1145
00:59:11,000 --> 00:59:13,760
Speaker 1: That's so true. This has been really fun.

1146
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:14,240
Speaker 2: Really good.

1147
00:59:14,960 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 5: I'd love to talk more about ownership and stuff like that. Yeah,

1148
00:59:18,320 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 5: there's so much.

1149
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 4: There's so much.

1150
00:59:20,560 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 3: There's so much bay Before we let Eve go, do

1151
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:24,760
Speaker 3: you want to ask her the question?

1152
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:26,160
Speaker 2: What question?

1153
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 1: The question at the end of every I Choose Me podcast?

1154
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,919
Speaker 2: Oh? Oh yeah, I think I know this, you do. Eve.

1155
00:59:34,280 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: What was your last I Choose Me moment?

1156
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 4: Hmmm. I'm going to say it was the active putting

1157
00:59:42,120 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 4: on which I do every morning of my necklace. That

1158
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 4: is my initial.

1159
00:59:48,000 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: Nice.

1160
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,840
Speaker 4: I don't have any mom charms. I don't wear my kids.

1161
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 4: I don't tattoo them on my body or wear them

1162
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 4: on my neck. I wear one initial. It's mine, and

1163
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:00,800
Speaker 4: I choose me because I want my kids to know

1164
01:00:00,840 --> 01:00:02,120
Speaker 4: that I have a life, I have a name, I

1165
01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 4: have an identity outside of my role as their parents,

1166
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:08,960
Speaker 4: at outside of my role as being the fulfiller of

1167
01:00:09,040 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 4: Seth Smoothie needs. And so for me that I choose

1168
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:15,240
Speaker 4: me as the reminder for myself. It's putting my own

1169
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:17,240
Speaker 4: initial physically on my neck every day.

1170
01:00:18,560 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: I love that so much. I never heard that one blueberry.

1171
01:00:23,120 --> 01:00:26,960
Speaker 3: No blueberry moments here now. Gosh, thank you so much

1172
01:00:27,000 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 3: for spending your time with us. We really appreciate you,

1173
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:30,240
Speaker 3: and you're so fun.

1174
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:32,080
Speaker 4: I love you guys.

1175
01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: You're great, all right, have a great day.

1176
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:35,360
Speaker 2: Thanks.

1177
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 4: Bye,