WEBVTT - Cargoism: Science, Desire and the Cargo Cults 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.880 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how stuff 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:13.760 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:16.159 My name is Robert Wham and I'm Christian Saga, and 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.440 today we're gonna be talking about cargo colts. But we're 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:24.520 not just gonna approach it um from my anthropological stand form. 0:00:24.520 --> 0:00:27.040 We're looking at this in terms of what it says 0:00:27.080 --> 0:00:31.280 about our understanding of science, programming, uh, the environment in 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.960 which we live. In a way, it's a deceptively deep topic. Yeah, 0:00:35.720 --> 0:00:38.239 I'm really interested in this because I feel like we're 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:41.360 not just going to be explaining something for the audience, 0:00:41.440 --> 0:00:45.640 but like that it has applications to our every day 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.240 and also to the way that we view science. Um. 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:51.000 Similar to the sort of what we did with that 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.440 Wicked Problems episode a couple of weeks ago exactly, this 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.480 one should be a good conversation starter as well. So 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:58.240 before we get into that, though, we just want to 0:00:58.280 --> 0:01:01.680 remind you podcasting that's not all we do. We're also 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:05.880 writers and video performers. That's that's a weird way to 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.959 describe ourselves, but yeah, we do videos as well about 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.280 science and education. 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So this is where you have, 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:06.080 you know, an indigenous population um in an island environment 0:02:06.160 --> 0:02:08.360 rather cut off from the rest of the world, and 0:02:08.440 --> 0:02:13.640 then they are suddenly privy to the wonders and marvels 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:18.240 and materialism of the greater outside world, of of of 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:21.920 modern civilizations and all of their products and goods, and 0:02:21.919 --> 0:02:25.160 then how they respond to that, Uh, maybe they end 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.720 up building up you know, sort of fake airstrips or 0:02:28.720 --> 0:02:33.160 even airplane effigies to try and lure the foreigners back 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.959 so that they can receive their bountiful goods once more. Yeah, 0:02:37.000 --> 0:02:39.440 and this may sound like something that's like a fairly 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:42.400 isolated incident, but it's actually it happened with hundreds of 0:02:42.440 --> 0:02:47.200 different native people's in the Melanesia region, especially during World 0:02:47.200 --> 0:02:50.280 War two. Um, in the Pacific theater, I guess is 0:02:50.280 --> 0:02:53.720 how they would put it. But anthropologists after and during 0:02:53.760 --> 0:02:56.640 the war found a lot of these organizations and they 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.000 were all basically operating around along the same lines that 0:02:59.000 --> 0:03:03.799 you're talking about here, um building these fake runways, fake wharves. 0:03:04.000 --> 0:03:06.200 I mean, we I'm calling them fake, but they to 0:03:06.280 --> 0:03:08.919 them they were real. They were building radio towers out 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:10.919 of bamboo. Yeah, they were in a way. They were 0:03:11.000 --> 0:03:12.720 like I kept to keep thinking of them as as 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:16.040 affigies as uh as you know, it's almost like a 0:03:16.280 --> 0:03:19.519 you know, a holy icon to try and bring back 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:23.880 this presence. Yeah. Absolutely so. The I think the modern 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:25.639 day names for some of the places that you would 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:29.160 recognize or Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Vanua to 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:33.040 New Caledonia and Fiji. So I mean actually, like we 0:03:33.400 --> 0:03:35.400 hear some of those Fiji we think of as being 0:03:35.440 --> 0:03:40.200 like a resort place, right, but you know this, not 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:43.680 too long ago there were people there who thought, hey, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:48.160 if I build an airstrip, uh, it will bring some deity, 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.320 will bring me cargo goods that will make my life 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.960 better and basically a send me to a paradise. Right. Yeah, 0:03:55.000 --> 0:03:58.680 And these are also areas where um anthropologists, even up 0:03:58.680 --> 0:04:03.480 into recent times here have been able to explore really 0:04:03.520 --> 0:04:07.080 more more ancient and primal ways of viewing the world 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:09.720 through local beliefs. It's really been a you know, a 0:04:09.840 --> 0:04:14.880 rich place to study how the human condition works. Yeah, 0:04:15.200 --> 0:04:19.240 it's especially interesting. Uh, we have some examples. And in fact, 0:04:19.279 --> 0:04:22.719 that John From movement in particular, is I believe still 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.520 going today. There's still even though the people who are 0:04:26.560 --> 0:04:29.599 involved in that movement, some of them have been to 0:04:30.080 --> 0:04:35.120 western civilized quote unquote countries and they've seen what is 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:37.080 out there in the rest of the world, they still 0:04:37.080 --> 0:04:39.840 hold onto this belief that a guy named John From 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:41.640 is going to show up one day with a bunch 0:04:41.640 --> 0:04:46.159 of stuff. Now, this whole topic, especially as we begin 0:04:46.200 --> 0:04:48.479 to dive into it and and as we explore it 0:04:48.480 --> 0:04:51.800 in greater depth. Uh, it's easy to sort of look 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:54.039 at it in very black and white terms, to look 0:04:54.080 --> 0:04:57.680 at it in terms of modern and primitive of you know, 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:01.680 of Western and Pacific. Uh. So to sort of ground 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:05.520 our exploration, I want to introduce a very sci fi 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:10.120 uh forward thinking concept here, and this is uh, the 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.960 idea of an outside context problem. This was this was 0:05:15.000 --> 0:05:17.840 coined by sci fi author one of my personal favorites, E. 0:05:17.960 --> 0:05:22.760 And M. Banks, in his culture book Accession. Now, this 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:25.520 this occurs. An outside context problem occurs when a society 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:29.800 or civilization encounters a problem, threat, or complication that they 0:05:29.839 --> 0:05:34.520 have no context to prepare for or perhaps even efficiently 0:05:34.920 --> 0:05:39.080 deal with. So the classic example is a colonial warship 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:41.719 arriving on the shores of a primitive society. Uh. In 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.280 the book Accession, it's an object from outside the known 0:05:45.400 --> 0:05:48.600 universe and seemingly older than the known universe popping into 0:05:48.600 --> 0:05:52.080 an existence. Now, another example, and this is apparently the 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.640 the inspiration for for banks creation of the term outside 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:58.839 context problems is that he uh, back in the day 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:02.360 he was playing the original version of sid Meier's civilization 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:06.279 and UH, if you've ever played this, it's uh, you know, 0:06:06.320 --> 0:06:09.360 it's you take control of different civilizations and then you're 0:06:09.360 --> 0:06:12.640 you're you're going up this technology tree. And so sometimes 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:16.600 you're often you're encountering other civilizations at the same technological level, 0:06:16.600 --> 0:06:21.000 but sometimes there's a discrepancy and UM and for instance, 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.880 one might find oneself in a situation playing this game 0:06:24.040 --> 0:06:27.320 where you're encountering a modern battleship while you're still stuck 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:31.680 using wooden sailing ships. Outside context problem. You couldn't possibly 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.120 prepare for it now, and an outside context problem is 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:38.560 often fatal. Most societies and civilizations only ever encounter one 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.760 of these things. UH, and history provides us with numerous 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:45.839 examples of how these typically play out. UH. Most of 0:06:45.880 --> 0:06:48.120 them seem to come to us through you know, the 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:51.080 more recent time and more recent times the colonial expansion 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:54.760 of the imperialist European powers, but we also see some 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:59.600 thought provoking examples from the twentieth century UM, particularly with 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:03.000 car occults, which we're discussing here because essentially what we're 0:07:03.040 --> 0:07:08.880 dealing with is how a society, how a culture responds 0:07:09.480 --> 0:07:13.640 to UH an outside context problem to contact with this 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.240 with this force, with this world that is so vastly 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:19.480 different from what they were prepared for. And what do 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:21.720 you do? Do you do? You? You do? You? You 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.680 are you just consumed by this power? You just completely 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:27.920 wiped out by it is? Does everything that you were 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:31.200 previously come to an end? Uh? Do you do you 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:34.720 somehow miraculously hold out like the you know, the heroes 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.720 and some sort of science fiction story, or do you 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:40.880 find some sort of middle ground? Yeah, it's kind of 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:43.600 interesting too, because going back to what you're saying about 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:47.400 the um, the idea of looking at these cultures as 0:07:47.440 --> 0:07:51.320 primitive from our lens, I think it's helpful to think 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.080 about this both from like try to put yourself in 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:56.840 their shoes first of all, but then also try to 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:00.360 put yourself in that like civilization mode where we're in 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.880 present day society, and like, I don't know, I'm trying 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:04.680 to think of like a sci fi example of this, 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:09.840 like some portal opens up and a huge alien spaceship 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:13.320 comes out, and the aliens come down, and they don't 0:08:13.360 --> 0:08:15.920 necessarily want to make war with us immediately, but you know, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.680 they're so technologically superior to us that they seem like gods. Yeah, 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.800 It actually reminds me of the Cat Stephens song Longer Boats. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.760 Do you remember this one? Not particularly? Okay, Uh, it's uh. 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:29.520 When I would hear it when I was younger, I 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.080 always it always brought to mine images of indigenous people's 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:37.160 encounters with colonial Europeans. Right, But apparently Stevens has said 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:41.600 in interview that the song was about an encounter with aliens, right, Yeah, 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:43.640 so it makes a little bit more sense. Yeah. So, 0:08:43.720 --> 0:08:45.480 But it's kind of interesting because it works either way 0:08:45.480 --> 0:08:49.240 in the same way that anything we're talking about in 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:53.280 terms of cargo cults at it could easily apply to 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:57.680 a sci fi scenario in which we encounter an alien civilization. Yeah, 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.400 and so I think, like we can use cargo cults 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:02.200 this sort of metaphor isn't the right word, but like 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.120 a model to apply to all of humanity, regardless of 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:08.040 where they are technologically or culturally, and sort of look 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:11.160 at it and say, like, this is how we as 0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:14.280 human beings are going to respond to things that are 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:19.560 outside of our imagination. Basically, um, and we have examples 0:09:19.559 --> 0:09:24.120 of that, specifically UM talking about science and sort of 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:27.120 how we deify science in our modern day culture. But 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.560 then also it's really interesting bit in here in the 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.920 research about programming and companies and how they go forward 0:09:34.960 --> 0:09:37.680 in a kind of cargo cult manner as well. Yeah, yeah, 0:09:37.679 --> 0:09:40.720 so it it really has roots that extend far beyond 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.880 the mere uh you know, geographical area of the South 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:47.800 Pacific here. So, as we previously mentioned, it would be 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.520 easy to mistake cargo culture, cargoism as it's often referred 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:56.439 as the mere worship of a technologically superior civilization. It 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:59.520 it brings to mind Arthur C. Clark's third law, which 0:09:59.559 --> 0:10:03.720 states any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And 0:10:03.760 --> 0:10:07.560 that's that's that's a great law, and it's but but 0:10:07.559 --> 0:10:09.240 but at times it can it can allow you, with 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:12.800 this situation to sort of stop at that point, right, Um, 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.280 But the the anthropological evidence seems to suggest something more 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:19.680 complex than that, though they're not less powerful by any means, 0:10:19.800 --> 0:10:23.240 because remember, these cargo shipments, airplanes, aircraft, all of it 0:10:23.280 --> 0:10:27.920 is making an impression on the people with an existing cosmology. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:29.760 They didn't just you know, fall out of the womb 0:10:29.760 --> 0:10:33.120 and then perceive these with these wonders and cast everything 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:36.080 else aside. They already already had a fully formed, though 0:10:36.160 --> 0:10:39.880 different worldview and then suddenly they're encountering you know, in 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:41.640 the case of World War two, I think it's important 0:10:42.360 --> 0:10:44.160 for us to remember, and we have to sort of 0:10:44.200 --> 0:10:46.720 put ourselves in a different frame of mind the further 0:10:46.960 --> 0:10:50.000 we get away from it in time. But this was 0:10:50.040 --> 0:10:52.520 a time of true global war in which we had 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.120 economic engines of total war encircling the globe. It was. 0:10:56.200 --> 0:10:58.959 It was a true world war, which is a little 0:10:58.960 --> 0:11:03.240 alien for for us to consider. Yeah, given where we 0:11:03.240 --> 0:11:05.360 are in time. Well, that's That's one of the things 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:08.880 about cargo cults that I think makes again like manifest 0:11:08.880 --> 0:11:11.560 about just human culture in general, is that, like it's yeah, 0:11:11.640 --> 0:11:16.720 like we in modern civilization can imagine the scenarios that 0:11:16.760 --> 0:11:19.320 are outside of our own personal like right in front 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:23.280 of us experiences like for instance, economics, right, Like we 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:25.840 we think we have a grasp on that idea, but 0:11:25.880 --> 0:11:29.280 we're not actually witnessing the events that lead to it. 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.480 So it's sort of in its own way imaginary, right, Uh. 0:11:33.559 --> 0:11:36.680 And I think that that's essentially what they were encountering 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.680 as well, when they would you know, see this uh 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:43.240 new age basically showing up in front of them, starting 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:47.800 with cargo deliveries coming to colonial officials, and they said, well, 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.800 it just seems like these people are writing down stuff 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.679 on scraps of paper, and then when they do that, 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:57.080 a ship shows up and delivers a bunch of things 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.440 they need. So we do the same thing, right, And 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:03.640 obviously it doesn't quite work that way. As H. Richard 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:05.960 Feynman says, and we're gonna probably repeat a lot in 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:10.800 this episode, the planes didn't come. One of the other 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:15.360 things that's interesting here too is conflict arises out of 0:12:15.400 --> 0:12:18.560 these cargo cults as well. I mean, sometimes the foreigners 0:12:18.640 --> 0:12:22.440 will show up with the cargo and they'll be seen 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.640 as having intercepted and stolen the cargo that was actually 0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.360 meant for the native peoples of this region. Right, So 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.559 they'll think, oh, well that was Hey, I I wrote 0:12:31.559 --> 0:12:33.040 my note on the piece of paper and it didn't 0:12:33.040 --> 0:12:34.199 show up for me. And then all of a sudden, 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:35.760 you show up and you've got all this stuff. You've 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.680 got I don't know, radios and microwaves or whatever. Uh, 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.360 that that's got to be mine. You must have stolen it, right, 0:12:41.559 --> 0:12:44.640 And so that leads to conflict. In fact, the Japanese 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:47.480 during World War Two saw they became highly unpopular in 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:50.280 this region, um, mainly because they tried to disarm and 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:53.880 disperse the population. But the natives essentially thought that they 0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:57.600 were interfering with this kind of cargo cult mentality and 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.000 attacked their warships with canoes, uh, And they thought that 0:13:01.040 --> 0:13:03.800 they would be invulnerable because they doused themselves in a 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:06.440 kind of holy water, but then they were slain by 0:13:06.480 --> 0:13:09.760 Japanese machine guns. So it's really tragic actually when you 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:11.560 think about it on a kind of larger scale. But 0:13:11.640 --> 0:13:14.240 of course, you know, all of World War two was 0:13:15.200 --> 0:13:17.679 and so where this ties into, I think stuff that 0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.680 we're beginning to see in in modern society as well, 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:23.760 is the idea that like there's a connection between the 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:28.959 cargo being delivered and the deity manifesting and the end times, right, 0:13:29.040 --> 0:13:32.400 that like this is the end of our modern are 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.600 not ours, but like the way of living that we 0:13:35.920 --> 0:13:39.320 understand is ending, and a new age will be brought 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:46.080 about by this arrival, right, Uh. Essentially a limitialist worldview. Yeah, 0:13:46.120 --> 0:13:47.840 I've seen it referred to that way and in a 0:13:47.880 --> 0:13:50.200 couple of the literature pieces of literature that we read 0:13:50.240 --> 0:13:52.280 for this piece. But yeah, that like some kind of 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:56.160 cataclysmic event has to happen first before the paradise occurs, 0:13:56.480 --> 0:14:01.400 and so subsequently then there's this like weird logical behavior 0:14:01.440 --> 0:14:04.000 that they have because they're like, well, it's all gonna end, 0:14:04.000 --> 0:14:06.040 so let's just burn to the ground anyways, right, Like, 0:14:06.120 --> 0:14:09.800 let's we'll destroy all of our actual resources because who 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:12.000 cares That airplane is going to come and bring us 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:14.080 the cargo that we need and we're never gonna have 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:19.200 to worry about growing crops or um maintaining livestock again. Right. So, 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:23.160 I actually have a personal experience with a situation very 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.040 similar to this that's happening in my life right now, 0:14:26.320 --> 0:14:28.600 and I think it's worth sharing with the listeners because 0:14:28.600 --> 0:14:31.400 maybe you have something else going on that's similar. My 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.240 father believes that the end of the world is coming, uh, 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:38.120 very strongly. Not only does he believe that's coming, he 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:39.880 has a date. He thinks it's going to happen on 0:14:39.960 --> 0:14:43.280 October one of this year. Um. And so he is 0:14:43.320 --> 0:14:45.760 currently in the middle of making what I call his 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:50.480 magical Mystery Tour. Uh. He's touring around the world going 0:14:50.520 --> 0:14:52.720 to see all of the sites that he either hasn't 0:14:52.720 --> 0:14:55.480 gotten to see yet, Like he went to Jerusalem, or 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.160 he just took his wife to New York City or 0:14:58.320 --> 0:15:00.920 visiting family members that he hasn't seen in a long time, 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:03.960 because he thinks this is the end. Uh. And it's 0:15:04.360 --> 0:15:06.840 when I was reading about these cargo cults, I was like, oh, 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:09.000 this is what's good. Like it seems crazy to me, 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:11.000 but it's the same thing that's kind of going on 0:15:11.080 --> 0:15:13.880 with my dad, right that he's like, well, in order 0:15:14.040 --> 0:15:18.160 for Paradise to show up, right, because it's this is 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:22.080 very deeply connected to his beliefs in Christianity. Um, he 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:25.560 thinks that it has to it has to all be 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:29.760 destroyed first, right, Like we can't imagine a world without 0:15:29.800 --> 0:15:33.560 a new world, without an apocalypse. Yeah, I mean, you're right. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.240 I mean the ideas that are wrapped up in cargoism, 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.280 they are not that dissimilar from from many of the 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:44.680 the ideas existing in in in various Christian movements that 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.760 are very much based on the imminent into the world 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:51.360 as we know it, the imminent return of a savior. 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:55.160 And he creates a very dramatic model for the near 0:15:55.200 --> 0:15:57.520 future with with a with a more or less definite 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.080 timeline to work with. Whereas maybe that's part of the 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:02.080 attraction of it, right, is that it gives you a 0:16:02.200 --> 0:16:06.360 definite timeline for for the future that is just not 0:16:06.480 --> 0:16:11.360 realistic outside of this particular worldview. Yeah, I mean for me, like, 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:14.000 and you know, I don't want to dive to down 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:17.120 the personal hole for for myself here, just because that 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:18.920 probably wouldn't be fair to the audience. We should cover 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.280 the topic at hand here. But looking at my dad's 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.320 experience with it, like it seems to me like it's 0:16:23.320 --> 0:16:25.640 more of an issue of like he's come to this 0:16:25.720 --> 0:16:28.720 point where he doesn't really see how he fits in 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:32.240 to the modern world, right, Like, um, it's it's like 0:16:32.280 --> 0:16:35.200 almost like it's grown past him. And so the way 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.000 that he deals with that is saying, well, then, of 0:16:38.000 --> 0:16:40.680 course that like if I'm irrelevant, then that must mean 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.560 the world's gonna end, right that like there's some kind 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:49.240 of imaginary it's easier to create something that's fantastical, right, 0:16:49.320 --> 0:16:52.160 like in the magical thinking terms than it is to 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:56.080 sort of come to grips with the complexities of reality. Yeah, 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:58.800 and apocalypse is kind of the uh, it's kind of 0:16:58.800 --> 0:17:01.960 the reset, but it's kind of the age quit even yeah, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:04.200 of life, right, Yeah, I don't know if others out 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:07.440 there have experiences with like something like that, or if 0:17:07.520 --> 0:17:10.119 I know, it seems pretty crazy to me when I 0:17:10.160 --> 0:17:12.600 when I hear my family members talk about this, but 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:14.880 you know it is it's just kind of interesting like 0:17:14.960 --> 0:17:18.920 that you can see somebody in two sixteen sort of 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.000 initiating the same behaviors of I'm just gonna leave all 0:17:22.040 --> 0:17:26.280 that other stuff behind and let it basically uh lay fallow. 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:31.080 Uh and and because why bother right, like the it's 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.360 it's the apocalypse is coming anyways, um and and all 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:36.359 the goodies will come my way. I don't need to 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.720 really worry about like earning money or I don't know, 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:43.080 um that farming my fields. As the example goes with 0:17:43.119 --> 0:17:45.320 cargo cults, and of course it just brings us to 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.479 the question of of how do you interpret the idea 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.639 of cargoism, How do you interpret cargo itself or cargo 0:17:52.119 --> 0:17:55.280 as it's known in the Pigeon English is of melan Asia, 0:17:55.560 --> 0:17:57.760 Because on one hand, it's something that a cargo cult, 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:00.840 you know, lead or instigated by a charis attic leader. 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.560 That's always important to remember there are there are strong 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.600 elements of cults as we know it inherent in these 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.280 cargo cults. Um. So the uh they asked for it 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:14.679 through dance, through marching, ritual communication with spirits, in the 0:18:14.720 --> 0:18:17.760 building of these effigies in some cases, so in its 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:20.840 most literal form, we're talking about cargo as money or 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:24.080 Western manufactured goods that are shipped into the island, and 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:27.000 massive amounts particularly that we're talking about that you know, 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.120 during the Pacific War. The most remarkable version, of course, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:34.160 is just about the recreation of landing strips and airplanes, um, 0:18:34.200 --> 0:18:38.160 you know, making it possible for these items to return. Yeah, 0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:41.439 I mean in down to wharves and warehouses and the 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.520 radio towers. One is the one that kept getting me. 0:18:43.520 --> 0:18:46.000 They would actually build antennas, and it was like they 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:49.760 didn't understand what an antenna was, but they saw what 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.040 it looked like, and they knew there was some kind 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.080 of cause and effect between the antenna and the cargo arriving, right. Um, 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:58.359 so they did their best to replicate that. You know. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.360 I didn't encounter the in the material we're looking at, 0:19:01.400 --> 0:19:05.560 But I wonder to what extent um cargo cultism plays 0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:09.840 into ancient astro not beliefs. I'm assuming there's a strong 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:12.879 connection there. Uh, But I'm not done. I'm not that 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:16.040 familiar with all the ancient haster not the materials out there. Yeah, 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.280 I don't. I don't know if you've ever done an 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:21.200 episode on it before. I'm wondering if the conspiracy guys 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:23.000 here at how stuff works or do stuff they don't 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.879 want you to know, have done something on it. But 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.719 can you just briefly summarize that for our audience. This 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:32.199 is the idea that extraterrestrial visitors or I think in 0:19:32.200 --> 0:19:34.000 some cases you know, maybe it's somebody from the future, 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:37.600 but anyway, some Essentially, it's saying that humanity as we 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:41.520 know it was shaped by an outside context um event 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.200 earlier in its existence. So you know, space aliens came 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:46.879 and showed us how to make bread. It's sort of 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:50.359 like the Stargate model, right, Like I think Stargate is 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:52.800 sort of based off of that idea that, like the 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:57.480 deities that were worshiped in ancient Egypt were actually technologically 0:19:57.520 --> 0:20:00.800 advanced aliens. There's something long list, and you know, I 0:20:00.800 --> 0:20:03.080 could see if someone were looking at the cargo cult model, 0:20:03.160 --> 0:20:06.720 you could take that model apply it to ancient civilizations 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.160 and you could try and make you know, you try 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:11.080 and bring the two together and say, well, they built 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.320 this particular monument uh as a kind of you know, 0:20:14.400 --> 0:20:18.680 fake radio tower. They were trying to um to recreate 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.600 the form, though we're unable to understand the function of 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:26.080 you know, very technologically advanced items. And I brought up 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.040 economics earlier, So here's kind of an example of how 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:33.199 the economics aspect played out in this region in a 0:20:33.240 --> 0:20:36.199 similar way to the cargo cult thing wasn't necessary. I mean, 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:39.280 they were connected, but it wasn't necessarily an example of it. 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.800 But so, for instance, they would find, hey, we're trading 0:20:42.800 --> 0:20:46.000 with these colonials that have shown up all of a sudden, 0:20:46.080 --> 0:20:49.000 I don't know what. They're giving them cava maybe uh, 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.520 and are selling them and uh, it's worth thirty pounds 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.359 one week, right, And so they think, okay, this unit 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:58.119 of cavas worth thirty pounds. And then a couple of 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.240 weeks later, the colonials show up and they say, we're 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.080 only going to give you five pounds for it now, 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:04.440 and they go, well, what are you talking about? Why 0:21:04.480 --> 0:21:08.040 it was it's worth thirty pounds uh. And because they 0:21:08.080 --> 0:21:12.000 have no you know, outside context for understanding like fluctuations 0:21:12.040 --> 0:21:14.320 of the value of a pound or the value of 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:18.680 cava or whatever. Uh it, it doesn't make sense for them, right, 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:21.639 and that to us seems like a basic cause and 0:21:21.680 --> 0:21:25.399 effect type thing, right, but then extrapolate that outwards to 0:21:25.960 --> 0:21:30.239 like a d if it proportion, right. Yeah. So so 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:34.240 with this literal idea of cargo, uh it's it's easy 0:21:34.280 --> 0:21:37.239 to see why many of these cults flared up and 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:41.840 then died out right, because you can only build fake 0:21:41.880 --> 0:21:44.800 airplanes and landing strips and radio towers so long. You 0:21:44.840 --> 0:21:48.960 can only pray to these gods that people have seen 0:21:50.040 --> 0:21:52.680 so long before there it becomes apparent they're not coming 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:56.400 back and you're not getting any of these material items. However, 0:21:57.119 --> 0:21:59.920 let's go back to that idea that there's very much 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:02.439 a merger of ideas going on here, that these are 0:22:02.480 --> 0:22:06.520