1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,880
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how stuff

2
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:13,760
Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

3
00:00:13,800 --> 00:00:16,159
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Wham and I'm Christian Saga, and

4
00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,440
Speaker 1: today we're gonna be talking about cargo colts. But we're

5
00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:24,520
Speaker 1: not just gonna approach it um from my anthropological stand form.

6
00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,040
Speaker 1: We're looking at this in terms of what it says

7
00:00:27,080 --> 00:00:31,280
Speaker 1: about our understanding of science, programming, uh, the environment in

8
00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,960
Speaker 1: which we live. In a way, it's a deceptively deep topic. Yeah,

9
00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:38,239
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in this because I feel like we're

10
00:00:38,280 --> 00:00:41,360
Speaker 1: not just going to be explaining something for the audience,

11
00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:45,640
Speaker 1: but like that it has applications to our every day

12
00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:49,240
Speaker 1: and also to the way that we view science. Um.

13
00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,000
Speaker 1: Similar to the sort of what we did with that

14
00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,440
Speaker 1: Wicked Problems episode a couple of weeks ago exactly, this

15
00:00:53,479 --> 00:00:56,480
Speaker 1: one should be a good conversation starter as well. So

16
00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 1: before we get into that, though, we just want to

17
00:00:58,280 --> 00:01:01,680
Speaker 1: remind you podcasting that's not all we do. We're also

18
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,880
Speaker 1: writers and video performers. That's that's a weird way to

19
00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:08,959
Speaker 1: describe ourselves, but yeah, we do videos as well about

20
00:01:09,000 --> 00:01:12,280
Speaker 1: science and education. You can find all of that stuff

21
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,920
Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your mind dot Com. That's our mothership.

22
00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,480
Speaker 1: That's where we keep all of the goodies. And if

23
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,360
Speaker 1: you want to follow us on social media, We're on Facebook,

24
00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:22,320
Speaker 1: We're on Twitter, We're on Tumbler, and we are now

25
00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:26,160
Speaker 1: on Instagram. All of those are blow the mind, I believe,

26
00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,440
Speaker 1: and you can also catch up with us on Fridays.

27
00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,760
Speaker 1: We live stream on Fridays at noon Eastern Standard time.

28
00:01:33,120 --> 00:01:36,039
Speaker 1: We usually do periscope, but sometimes we do Facebook live.

29
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,480
Speaker 1: We will let you know on all those platforms I

30
00:01:38,520 --> 00:01:42,760
Speaker 1: mentioned above, whether it's one or the other earlier that day.

31
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:44,319
Speaker 1: So check us out if you want to come and

32
00:01:44,360 --> 00:01:46,880
Speaker 1: ask us some questions, see what we look like, and uh,

33
00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,000
Speaker 1: make fun of our haircuts whatever. That's what we're there for.

34
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,640
Speaker 1: And it's a it's our own little cargo cult right yeah. Now,

35
00:01:54,840 --> 00:01:56,960
Speaker 1: but before we get into it, we're just gonna just

36
00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:01,120
Speaker 1: initially define cargo cults. So this is where you have,

37
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,080
Speaker 1: you know, an indigenous population um in an island environment

38
00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,360
Speaker 1: rather cut off from the rest of the world, and

39
00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:13,640
Speaker 1: then they are suddenly privy to the wonders and marvels

40
00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:18,240
Speaker 1: and materialism of the greater outside world, of of of

41
00:02:18,400 --> 00:02:21,920
Speaker 1: modern civilizations and all of their products and goods, and

42
00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,160
Speaker 1: then how they respond to that, Uh, maybe they end

43
00:02:25,280 --> 00:02:28,720
Speaker 1: up building up you know, sort of fake airstrips or

44
00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:33,160
Speaker 1: even airplane effigies to try and lure the foreigners back

45
00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,959
Speaker 1: so that they can receive their bountiful goods once more. Yeah,

46
00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,440
Speaker 1: and this may sound like something that's like a fairly

47
00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:42,400
Speaker 1: isolated incident, but it's actually it happened with hundreds of

48
00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:47,200
Speaker 1: different native people's in the Melanesia region, especially during World

49
00:02:47,200 --> 00:02:50,280
Speaker 1: War two. Um, in the Pacific theater, I guess is

50
00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,720
Speaker 1: how they would put it. But anthropologists after and during

51
00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,640
Speaker 1: the war found a lot of these organizations and they

52
00:02:56,639 --> 00:02:59,000
Speaker 1: were all basically operating around along the same lines that

53
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:03,799
Speaker 1: you're talking about here, um building these fake runways, fake wharves.

54
00:03:04,000 --> 00:03:06,200
Speaker 1: I mean, we I'm calling them fake, but they to

55
00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:08,919
Speaker 1: them they were real. They were building radio towers out

56
00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:10,919
Speaker 1: of bamboo. Yeah, they were in a way. They were

57
00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:12,720
Speaker 1: like I kept to keep thinking of them as as

58
00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 1: affigies as uh as you know, it's almost like a

59
00:03:16,280 --> 00:03:19,519
Speaker 1: you know, a holy icon to try and bring back

60
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:23,880
Speaker 1: this presence. Yeah. Absolutely so. The I think the modern

61
00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:25,639
Speaker 1: day names for some of the places that you would

62
00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:29,160
Speaker 1: recognize or Papua New Guinea, the Solomon Islands, Vanua to

63
00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 1: New Caledonia and Fiji. So I mean actually, like we

64
00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:35,400
Speaker 1: hear some of those Fiji we think of as being

65
00:03:35,440 --> 00:03:40,200
Speaker 1: like a resort place, right, but you know this, not

66
00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 1: too long ago there were people there who thought, hey,

67
00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:48,160
Speaker 1: if I build an airstrip, uh, it will bring some deity,

68
00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 1: will bring me cargo goods that will make my life

69
00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:54,960
Speaker 1: better and basically a send me to a paradise. Right. Yeah,

70
00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 1: And these are also areas where um anthropologists, even up

71
00:03:58,680 --> 00:04:03,480
Speaker 1: into recent times here have been able to explore really

72
00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:07,080
Speaker 1: more more ancient and primal ways of viewing the world

73
00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 1: through local beliefs. It's really been a you know, a

74
00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:14,880
Speaker 1: rich place to study how the human condition works. Yeah,

75
00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,240
Speaker 1: it's especially interesting. Uh, we have some examples. And in fact,

76
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:22,719
Speaker 1: that John From movement in particular, is I believe still

77
00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:26,520
Speaker 1: going today. There's still even though the people who are

78
00:04:26,560 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 1: involved in that movement, some of them have been to

79
00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:35,120
Speaker 1: western civilized quote unquote countries and they've seen what is

80
00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:37,080
Speaker 1: out there in the rest of the world, they still

81
00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:39,840
Speaker 1: hold onto this belief that a guy named John From

82
00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,640
Speaker 1: is going to show up one day with a bunch

83
00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:46,159
Speaker 1: of stuff. Now, this whole topic, especially as we begin

84
00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:48,479
Speaker 1: to dive into it and and as we explore it

85
00:04:48,480 --> 00:04:51,800
Speaker 1: in greater depth. Uh, it's easy to sort of look

86
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:54,039
Speaker 1: at it in very black and white terms, to look

87
00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,680
Speaker 1: at it in terms of modern and primitive of you know,

88
00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 1: of Western and Pacific. Uh. So to sort of ground

89
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 1: our exploration, I want to introduce a very sci fi

90
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:10,120
Speaker 1: uh forward thinking concept here, and this is uh, the

91
00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,960
Speaker 1: idea of an outside context problem. This was this was

92
00:05:15,000 --> 00:05:17,840
Speaker 1: coined by sci fi author one of my personal favorites, E.

93
00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:22,760
Speaker 1: And M. Banks, in his culture book Accession. Now, this

94
00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:25,520
Speaker 1: this occurs. An outside context problem occurs when a society

95
00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 1: or civilization encounters a problem, threat, or complication that they

96
00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:34,520
Speaker 1: have no context to prepare for or perhaps even efficiently

97
00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:39,080
Speaker 1: deal with. So the classic example is a colonial warship

98
00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:41,719
Speaker 1: arriving on the shores of a primitive society. Uh. In

99
00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,280
Speaker 1: the book Accession, it's an object from outside the known

100
00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,600
Speaker 1: universe and seemingly older than the known universe popping into

101
00:05:48,600 --> 00:05:52,080
Speaker 1: an existence. Now, another example, and this is apparently the

102
00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,640
Speaker 1: the inspiration for for banks creation of the term outside

103
00:05:55,640 --> 00:05:58,839
Speaker 1: context problems is that he uh, back in the day

104
00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,360
Speaker 1: he was playing the original version of sid Meier's civilization

105
00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:06,279
Speaker 1: and UH, if you've ever played this, it's uh, you know,

106
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,360
Speaker 1: it's you take control of different civilizations and then you're

107
00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,640
Speaker 1: you're you're going up this technology tree. And so sometimes

108
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,600
Speaker 1: you're often you're encountering other civilizations at the same technological level,

109
00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 1: but sometimes there's a discrepancy and UM and for instance,

110
00:06:21,040 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 1: one might find oneself in a situation playing this game

111
00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:27,320
Speaker 1: where you're encountering a modern battleship while you're still stuck

112
00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,680
Speaker 1: using wooden sailing ships. Outside context problem. You couldn't possibly

113
00:06:31,960 --> 00:06:35,120
Speaker 1: prepare for it now, and an outside context problem is

114
00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:38,560
Speaker 1: often fatal. Most societies and civilizations only ever encounter one

115
00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,760
Speaker 1: of these things. UH, and history provides us with numerous

116
00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,839
Speaker 1: examples of how these typically play out. UH. Most of

117
00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,120
Speaker 1: them seem to come to us through you know, the

118
00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 1: more recent time and more recent times the colonial expansion

119
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 1: of the imperialist European powers, but we also see some

120
00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:59,600
Speaker 1: thought provoking examples from the twentieth century UM, particularly with

121
00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:03,000
Speaker 1: car occults, which we're discussing here because essentially what we're

122
00:07:03,040 --> 00:07:08,880
Speaker 1: dealing with is how a society, how a culture responds

123
00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,640
Speaker 1: to UH an outside context problem to contact with this

124
00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,240
Speaker 1: with this force, with this world that is so vastly

125
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:19,480
Speaker 1: different from what they were prepared for. And what do

126
00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:21,720
Speaker 1: you do? Do you do? You? You do? You? You

127
00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 1: are you just consumed by this power? You just completely

128
00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,920
Speaker 1: wiped out by it is? Does everything that you were

129
00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:31,200
Speaker 1: previously come to an end? Uh? Do you do you

130
00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:34,720
Speaker 1: somehow miraculously hold out like the you know, the heroes

131
00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:37,720
Speaker 1: and some sort of science fiction story, or do you

132
00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 1: find some sort of middle ground? Yeah, it's kind of

133
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:43,600
Speaker 1: interesting too, because going back to what you're saying about

134
00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 1: the um, the idea of looking at these cultures as

135
00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:51,320
Speaker 1: primitive from our lens, I think it's helpful to think

136
00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,080
Speaker 1: about this both from like try to put yourself in

137
00:07:54,120 --> 00:07:56,840
Speaker 1: their shoes first of all, but then also try to

138
00:07:56,880 --> 00:08:00,360
Speaker 1: put yourself in that like civilization mode where we're in

139
00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,880
Speaker 1: present day society, and like, I don't know, I'm trying

140
00:08:02,880 --> 00:08:04,680
Speaker 1: to think of like a sci fi example of this,

141
00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,840
Speaker 1: like some portal opens up and a huge alien spaceship

142
00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,320
Speaker 1: comes out, and the aliens come down, and they don't

143
00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:15,920
Speaker 1: necessarily want to make war with us immediately, but you know,

144
00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,680
Speaker 1: they're so technologically superior to us that they seem like gods. Yeah,

145
00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,800
Speaker 1: It actually reminds me of the Cat Stephens song Longer Boats.

146
00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,760
Speaker 1: Do you remember this one? Not particularly? Okay, Uh, it's uh.

147
00:08:27,760 --> 00:08:29,520
Speaker 1: When I would hear it when I was younger, I

148
00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,080
Speaker 1: always it always brought to mine images of indigenous people's

149
00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:37,160
Speaker 1: encounters with colonial Europeans. Right, But apparently Stevens has said

150
00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,600
Speaker 1: in interview that the song was about an encounter with aliens, right, Yeah,

151
00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 1: so it makes a little bit more sense. Yeah. So,

152
00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:45,480
Speaker 1: But it's kind of interesting because it works either way

153
00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:49,240
Speaker 1: in the same way that anything we're talking about in

154
00:08:49,320 --> 00:08:53,280
Speaker 1: terms of cargo cults at it could easily apply to

155
00:08:53,320 --> 00:08:57,680
Speaker 1: a sci fi scenario in which we encounter an alien civilization. Yeah,

156
00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:00,400
Speaker 1: and so I think, like we can use cargo cults

157
00:09:00,400 --> 00:09:02,200
Speaker 1: this sort of metaphor isn't the right word, but like

158
00:09:02,240 --> 00:09:05,120
Speaker 1: a model to apply to all of humanity, regardless of

159
00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:08,040
Speaker 1: where they are technologically or culturally, and sort of look

160
00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:11,160
Speaker 1: at it and say, like, this is how we as

161
00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:14,280
Speaker 1: human beings are going to respond to things that are

162
00:09:14,320 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 1: outside of our imagination. Basically, um, and we have examples

163
00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,120
Speaker 1: of that, specifically UM talking about science and sort of

164
00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,120
Speaker 1: how we deify science in our modern day culture. But

165
00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,560
Speaker 1: then also it's really interesting bit in here in the

166
00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:34,920
Speaker 1: research about programming and companies and how they go forward

167
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,680
Speaker 1: in a kind of cargo cult manner as well. Yeah, yeah,

168
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,720
Speaker 1: so it it really has roots that extend far beyond

169
00:09:40,920 --> 00:09:44,880
Speaker 1: the mere uh you know, geographical area of the South

170
00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,800
Speaker 1: Pacific here. So, as we previously mentioned, it would be

171
00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 1: easy to mistake cargo culture, cargoism as it's often referred

172
00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:56,439
Speaker 1: as the mere worship of a technologically superior civilization. It

173
00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,520
Speaker 1: it brings to mind Arthur C. Clark's third law, which

174
00:09:59,559 --> 00:10:03,720
Speaker 1: states any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. And

175
00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,560
Speaker 1: that's that's that's a great law, and it's but but

176
00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:09,240
Speaker 1: but at times it can it can allow you, with

177
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:12,800
Speaker 1: this situation to sort of stop at that point, right, Um,

178
00:10:12,840 --> 00:10:16,280
Speaker 1: But the the anthropological evidence seems to suggest something more

179
00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:19,680
Speaker 1: complex than that, though they're not less powerful by any means,

180
00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,240
Speaker 1: because remember, these cargo shipments, airplanes, aircraft, all of it

181
00:10:23,280 --> 00:10:27,920
Speaker 1: is making an impression on the people with an existing cosmology.

182
00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 1: They didn't just you know, fall out of the womb

183
00:10:29,760 --> 00:10:33,120
Speaker 1: and then perceive these with these wonders and cast everything

184
00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,080
Speaker 1: else aside. They already already had a fully formed, though

185
00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 1: different worldview and then suddenly they're encountering you know, in

186
00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:41,640
Speaker 1: the case of World War two, I think it's important

187
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,160
Speaker 1: for us to remember, and we have to sort of

188
00:10:44,200 --> 00:10:46,720
Speaker 1: put ourselves in a different frame of mind the further

189
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,000
Speaker 1: we get away from it in time. But this was

190
00:10:50,040 --> 00:10:52,520
Speaker 1: a time of true global war in which we had

191
00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,120
Speaker 1: economic engines of total war encircling the globe. It was.

192
00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:58,959
Speaker 1: It was a true world war, which is a little

193
00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:03,240
Speaker 1: alien for for us to consider. Yeah, given where we

194
00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:05,360
Speaker 1: are in time. Well, that's That's one of the things

195
00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:08,880
Speaker 1: about cargo cults that I think makes again like manifest

196
00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,560
Speaker 1: about just human culture in general, is that, like it's yeah,

197
00:11:11,640 --> 00:11:16,720
Speaker 1: like we in modern civilization can imagine the scenarios that

198
00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:19,320
Speaker 1: are outside of our own personal like right in front

199
00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:23,280
Speaker 1: of us experiences like for instance, economics, right, Like we

200
00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:25,840
Speaker 1: we think we have a grasp on that idea, but

201
00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,280
Speaker 1: we're not actually witnessing the events that lead to it.

202
00:11:29,400 --> 00:11:33,480
Speaker 1: So it's sort of in its own way imaginary, right, Uh.

203
00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:36,680
Speaker 1: And I think that that's essentially what they were encountering

204
00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:39,680
Speaker 1: as well, when they would you know, see this uh

205
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:43,240
Speaker 1: new age basically showing up in front of them, starting

206
00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:47,800
Speaker 1: with cargo deliveries coming to colonial officials, and they said, well,

207
00:11:47,880 --> 00:11:50,800
Speaker 1: it just seems like these people are writing down stuff

208
00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,679
Speaker 1: on scraps of paper, and then when they do that,

209
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,080
Speaker 1: a ship shows up and delivers a bunch of things

210
00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,440
Speaker 1: they need. So we do the same thing, right, And

211
00:12:00,679 --> 00:12:03,640
Speaker 1: obviously it doesn't quite work that way. As H. Richard

212
00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,960
Speaker 1: Feynman says, and we're gonna probably repeat a lot in

213
00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:10,800
Speaker 1: this episode, the planes didn't come. One of the other

214
00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 1: things that's interesting here too is conflict arises out of

215
00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:18,560
Speaker 1: these cargo cults as well. I mean, sometimes the foreigners

216
00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,440
Speaker 1: will show up with the cargo and they'll be seen

217
00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,640
Speaker 1: as having intercepted and stolen the cargo that was actually

218
00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:28,360
Speaker 1: meant for the native peoples of this region. Right, So

219
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:31,559
Speaker 1: they'll think, oh, well that was Hey, I I wrote

220
00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 1: my note on the piece of paper and it didn't

221
00:12:33,040 --> 00:12:34,199
Speaker 1: show up for me. And then all of a sudden,

222
00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:35,760
Speaker 1: you show up and you've got all this stuff. You've

223
00:12:35,760 --> 00:12:38,680
Speaker 1: got I don't know, radios and microwaves or whatever. Uh,

224
00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,360
Speaker 1: that that's got to be mine. You must have stolen it, right,

225
00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,640
Speaker 1: And so that leads to conflict. In fact, the Japanese

226
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,480
Speaker 1: during World War Two saw they became highly unpopular in

227
00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:50,280
Speaker 1: this region, um, mainly because they tried to disarm and

228
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:53,880
Speaker 1: disperse the population. But the natives essentially thought that they

229
00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:57,600
Speaker 1: were interfering with this kind of cargo cult mentality and

230
00:12:57,640 --> 00:13:01,000
Speaker 1: attacked their warships with canoes, uh, And they thought that

231
00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:03,800
Speaker 1: they would be invulnerable because they doused themselves in a

232
00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:06,440
Speaker 1: kind of holy water, but then they were slain by

233
00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:09,760
Speaker 1: Japanese machine guns. So it's really tragic actually when you

234
00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:11,560
Speaker 1: think about it on a kind of larger scale. But

235
00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:14,240
Speaker 1: of course, you know, all of World War two was

236
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 1: and so where this ties into, I think stuff that

237
00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:20,680
Speaker 1: we're beginning to see in in modern society as well,

238
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:23,760
Speaker 1: is the idea that like there's a connection between the

239
00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:28,959
Speaker 1: cargo being delivered and the deity manifesting and the end times, right,

240
00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:32,400
Speaker 1: that like this is the end of our modern are

241
00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,600
Speaker 1: not ours, but like the way of living that we

242
00:13:35,920 --> 00:13:39,320
Speaker 1: understand is ending, and a new age will be brought

243
00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:46,080
Speaker 1: about by this arrival, right, Uh. Essentially a limitialist worldview. Yeah,

244
00:13:46,120 --> 00:13:47,840
Speaker 1: I've seen it referred to that way and in a

245
00:13:47,880 --> 00:13:50,200
Speaker 1: couple of the literature pieces of literature that we read

246
00:13:50,240 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 1: for this piece. But yeah, that like some kind of

247
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:56,160
Speaker 1: cataclysmic event has to happen first before the paradise occurs,

248
00:13:56,480 --> 00:14:01,400
Speaker 1: and so subsequently then there's this like weird logical behavior

249
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,000
Speaker 1: that they have because they're like, well, it's all gonna end,

250
00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: so let's just burn to the ground anyways, right, Like,

251
00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,800
Speaker 1: let's we'll destroy all of our actual resources because who

252
00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:12,000
Speaker 1: cares That airplane is going to come and bring us

253
00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:14,080
Speaker 1: the cargo that we need and we're never gonna have

254
00:14:14,160 --> 00:14:19,200
Speaker 1: to worry about growing crops or um maintaining livestock again. Right. So,

255
00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:23,160
Speaker 1: I actually have a personal experience with a situation very

256
00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 1: similar to this that's happening in my life right now,

257
00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:28,600
Speaker 1: and I think it's worth sharing with the listeners because

258
00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 1: maybe you have something else going on that's similar. My

259
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,240
Speaker 1: father believes that the end of the world is coming, uh,

260
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,120
Speaker 1: very strongly. Not only does he believe that's coming, he

261
00:14:38,160 --> 00:14:39,880
Speaker 1: has a date. He thinks it's going to happen on

262
00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:43,280
Speaker 1: October one of this year. Um. And so he is

263
00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:45,760
Speaker 1: currently in the middle of making what I call his

264
00:14:45,840 --> 00:14:50,480
Speaker 1: magical Mystery Tour. Uh. He's touring around the world going

265
00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,720
Speaker 1: to see all of the sites that he either hasn't

266
00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:55,480
Speaker 1: gotten to see yet, Like he went to Jerusalem, or

267
00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,160
Speaker 1: he just took his wife to New York City or

268
00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:00,920
Speaker 1: visiting family members that he hasn't seen in a long time,

269
00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:03,960
Speaker 1: because he thinks this is the end. Uh. And it's

270
00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,840
Speaker 1: when I was reading about these cargo cults, I was like, oh,

271
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,000
Speaker 1: this is what's good. Like it seems crazy to me,

272
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,000
Speaker 1: but it's the same thing that's kind of going on

273
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:13,880
Speaker 1: with my dad, right that he's like, well, in order

274
00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,160
Speaker 1: for Paradise to show up, right, because it's this is

275
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:22,080
Speaker 1: very deeply connected to his beliefs in Christianity. Um, he

276
00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:25,560
Speaker 1: thinks that it has to it has to all be

277
00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:29,760
Speaker 1: destroyed first, right, Like we can't imagine a world without

278
00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,560
Speaker 1: a new world, without an apocalypse. Yeah, I mean, you're right.

279
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,240
Speaker 1: I mean the ideas that are wrapped up in cargoism,

280
00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 1: they are not that dissimilar from from many of the

281
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:44,680
Speaker 1: the ideas existing in in in various Christian movements that

282
00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,760
Speaker 1: are very much based on the imminent into the world

283
00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:51,360
Speaker 1: as we know it, the imminent return of a savior.

284
00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:55,160
Speaker 1: And he creates a very dramatic model for the near

285
00:15:55,200 --> 00:15:57,520
Speaker 1: future with with a with a more or less definite

286
00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,080
Speaker 1: timeline to work with. Whereas maybe that's part of the

287
00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,080
Speaker 1: attraction of it, right, is that it gives you a

288
00:16:02,200 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 1: definite timeline for for the future that is just not

289
00:16:06,480 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 1: realistic outside of this particular worldview. Yeah, I mean for me, like,

290
00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't want to dive to down

291
00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 1: the personal hole for for myself here, just because that

292
00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:18,920
Speaker 1: probably wouldn't be fair to the audience. We should cover

293
00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:21,280
Speaker 1: the topic at hand here. But looking at my dad's

294
00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 1: experience with it, like it seems to me like it's

295
00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:25,640
Speaker 1: more of an issue of like he's come to this

296
00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,720
Speaker 1: point where he doesn't really see how he fits in

297
00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:32,240
Speaker 1: to the modern world, right, Like, um, it's it's like

298
00:16:32,280 --> 00:16:35,200
Speaker 1: almost like it's grown past him. And so the way

299
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,000
Speaker 1: that he deals with that is saying, well, then, of

300
00:16:38,000 --> 00:16:40,680
Speaker 1: course that like if I'm irrelevant, then that must mean

301
00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 1: the world's gonna end, right that like there's some kind

302
00:16:43,600 --> 00:16:49,240
Speaker 1: of imaginary it's easier to create something that's fantastical, right,

303
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,160
Speaker 1: like in the magical thinking terms than it is to

304
00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:56,080
Speaker 1: sort of come to grips with the complexities of reality. Yeah,

305
00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:58,800
Speaker 1: and apocalypse is kind of the uh, it's kind of

306
00:16:58,800 --> 00:17:01,960
Speaker 1: the reset, but it's kind of the age quit even yeah,

307
00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:04,200
Speaker 1: of life, right, Yeah, I don't know if others out

308
00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,440
Speaker 1: there have experiences with like something like that, or if

309
00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:10,119
Speaker 1: I know, it seems pretty crazy to me when I

310
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 1: when I hear my family members talk about this, but

311
00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:14,880
Speaker 1: you know it is it's just kind of interesting like

312
00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,920
Speaker 1: that you can see somebody in two sixteen sort of

313
00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,000
Speaker 1: initiating the same behaviors of I'm just gonna leave all

314
00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,280
Speaker 1: that other stuff behind and let it basically uh lay fallow.

315
00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,080
Speaker 1: Uh and and because why bother right, like the it's

316
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:34,360
Speaker 1: it's the apocalypse is coming anyways, um and and all

317
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,359
Speaker 1: the goodies will come my way. I don't need to

318
00:17:36,359 --> 00:17:39,720
Speaker 1: really worry about like earning money or I don't know,

319
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,080
Speaker 1: um that farming my fields. As the example goes with

320
00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 1: cargo cults, and of course it just brings us to

321
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,479
Speaker 1: the question of of how do you interpret the idea

322
00:17:48,480 --> 00:17:51,639
Speaker 1: of cargoism, How do you interpret cargo itself or cargo

323
00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,280
Speaker 1: as it's known in the Pigeon English is of melan Asia,

324
00:17:55,560 --> 00:17:57,760
Speaker 1: Because on one hand, it's something that a cargo cult,

325
00:17:58,040 --> 00:18:00,840
Speaker 1: you know, lead or instigated by a charis attic leader.

326
00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,560
Speaker 1: That's always important to remember there are there are strong

327
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: elements of cults as we know it inherent in these

328
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: cargo cults. Um. So the uh they asked for it

329
00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:14,679
Speaker 1: through dance, through marching, ritual communication with spirits, in the

330
00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,760
Speaker 1: building of these effigies in some cases, so in its

331
00:18:17,800 --> 00:18:20,840
Speaker 1: most literal form, we're talking about cargo as money or

332
00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:24,080
Speaker 1: Western manufactured goods that are shipped into the island, and

333
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:27,000
Speaker 1: massive amounts particularly that we're talking about that you know,

334
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,120
Speaker 1: during the Pacific War. The most remarkable version, of course,

335
00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:34,160
Speaker 1: is just about the recreation of landing strips and airplanes, um,

336
00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:38,160
Speaker 1: you know, making it possible for these items to return. Yeah,

337
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,439
Speaker 1: I mean in down to wharves and warehouses and the

338
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,520
Speaker 1: radio towers. One is the one that kept getting me.

339
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 1: They would actually build antennas, and it was like they

340
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:49,760
Speaker 1: didn't understand what an antenna was, but they saw what

341
00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,040
Speaker 1: it looked like, and they knew there was some kind

342
00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 1: of cause and effect between the antenna and the cargo arriving, right. Um,

343
00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,359
Speaker 1: so they did their best to replicate that. You know.

344
00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:01,360
Speaker 1: I didn't encounter the in the material we're looking at,

345
00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 1: But I wonder to what extent um cargo cultism plays

346
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: into ancient astro not beliefs. I'm assuming there's a strong

347
00:19:09,880 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 1: connection there. Uh, But I'm not done. I'm not that

348
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,040
Speaker 1: familiar with all the ancient haster not the materials out there. Yeah,

349
00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know if you've ever done an

350
00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,200
Speaker 1: episode on it before. I'm wondering if the conspiracy guys

351
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 1: here at how stuff works or do stuff they don't

352
00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:24,879
Speaker 1: want you to know, have done something on it. But

353
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,719
Speaker 1: can you just briefly summarize that for our audience. This

354
00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:32,199
Speaker 1: is the idea that extraterrestrial visitors or I think in

355
00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:34,000
Speaker 1: some cases you know, maybe it's somebody from the future,

356
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:37,600
Speaker 1: but anyway, some Essentially, it's saying that humanity as we

357
00:19:37,640 --> 00:19:41,520
Speaker 1: know it was shaped by an outside context um event

358
00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:45,200
Speaker 1: earlier in its existence. So you know, space aliens came

359
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:46,879
Speaker 1: and showed us how to make bread. It's sort of

360
00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,359
Speaker 1: like the Stargate model, right, Like I think Stargate is

361
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:52,800
Speaker 1: sort of based off of that idea that, like the

362
00:19:52,840 --> 00:19:57,480
Speaker 1: deities that were worshiped in ancient Egypt were actually technologically

363
00:19:57,520 --> 00:20:00,800
Speaker 1: advanced aliens. There's something long list, and you know, I

364
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 1: could see if someone were looking at the cargo cult model,

365
00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:06,720
Speaker 1: you could take that model apply it to ancient civilizations

366
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:09,160
Speaker 1: and you could try and make you know, you try

367
00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,080
Speaker 1: and bring the two together and say, well, they built

368
00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 1: this particular monument uh as a kind of you know,

369
00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 1: fake radio tower. They were trying to um to recreate

370
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,600
Speaker 1: the form, though we're unable to understand the function of

371
00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,080
Speaker 1: you know, very technologically advanced items. And I brought up

372
00:20:26,080 --> 00:20:29,040
Speaker 1: economics earlier, So here's kind of an example of how

373
00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,199
Speaker 1: the economics aspect played out in this region in a

374
00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:36,199
Speaker 1: similar way to the cargo cult thing wasn't necessary. I mean,

375
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 1: they were connected, but it wasn't necessarily an example of it.

376
00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: But so, for instance, they would find, hey, we're trading

377
00:20:42,800 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: with these colonials that have shown up all of a sudden,

378
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 1: I don't know what. They're giving them cava maybe uh,

379
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: and are selling them and uh, it's worth thirty pounds

380
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,359
Speaker 1: one week, right, And so they think, okay, this unit

381
00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,119
Speaker 1: of cavas worth thirty pounds. And then a couple of

382
00:20:58,119 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 1: weeks later, the colonials show up and they say, we're

383
00:21:00,280 --> 00:21:02,080
Speaker 1: only going to give you five pounds for it now,

384
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:04,440
Speaker 1: and they go, well, what are you talking about? Why

385
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:08,040
Speaker 1: it was it's worth thirty pounds uh. And because they

386
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:12,000
Speaker 1: have no you know, outside context for understanding like fluctuations

387
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,320
Speaker 1: of the value of a pound or the value of

388
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,680
Speaker 1: cava or whatever. Uh it, it doesn't make sense for them, right,

389
00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 1: and that to us seems like a basic cause and

390
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,399
Speaker 1: effect type thing, right, but then extrapolate that outwards to

391
00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:30,239
Speaker 1: like a d if it proportion, right. Yeah. So so

392
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 1: with this literal idea of cargo, uh it's it's easy

393
00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,239
Speaker 1: to see why many of these cults flared up and

394
00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: then died out right, because you can only build fake

395
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: airplanes and landing strips and radio towers so long. You

396
00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:48,960
Speaker 1: can only pray to these gods that people have seen

397
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,680
Speaker 1: so long before there it becomes apparent they're not coming

398
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,400
Speaker 1: back and you're not getting any of these material items. However,

399
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:59,920
Speaker 1: let's go back to that idea that there's very much

400
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,439
Speaker 1: a merger of ideas going on here, that these are

401
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 1: people that had existing mythologies, that had an existing worldview,

402
00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,960
Speaker 1: and they were impacted by the trauma of this outside

403
00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,520
Speaker 1: context problem and not just completely reshaped by it. Yeah.

404
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 1: It reminds me of the way that Catholicism has affected

405
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 1: some localities like mystical or supernatural beliefs, and they've sort

406
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,280
Speaker 1: of mixed together. Right. Um, I think the common one

407
00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:28,600
Speaker 1: that a lot of people think of is like voodoo

408
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,680
Speaker 1: and hoo doo. It is. Actually somebody actually just wrote

409
00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:34,080
Speaker 1: into us recently and asked us, asked us to do

410
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,240
Speaker 1: an episode on the difference between the two. And I

411
00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,639
Speaker 1: don't really feel confident that in having done the research

412
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 1: enough to explain it right here, but maybe we'll do

413
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,760
Speaker 1: something on that in the future. But like something like that,

414
00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 1: that merger of cultures is sort of what's going on here, right, Yeah. Yeah,

415
00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:53,439
Speaker 1: So but it's like capital intersecting with religion. Yeah, yeah, indeed.

416
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:55,760
Speaker 1: I mean you end up with a sort of a

417
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 1: metaphorical cargoism, where where cargo or or cago can also

418
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 1: mean a number of things including return of dead ancestors,

419
00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,760
Speaker 1: achievement of balanced exchange, relations with Europeans, um, you know,

420
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 1: sense of honor and self worth, desire for political sovereignty,

421
00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 1: the transformation and transcendence of everyday reality. So so cargo,

422
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: the thing you're you're asking for, becomes less about this

423
00:23:21,800 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: material delivery and more of a spiritual delivery. Yeah. And

424
00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:28,200
Speaker 1: so today the ones that survived, like we're gonna talk

425
00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: to you about John from uh, they maybe they're still

426
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 1: cargo cults, or maybe they've stopped being cargo cults, and

427
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,439
Speaker 1: they've merged into becoming churches or what we recognized as

428
00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: a church, or even a political party or a business organization. Right, Like,

429
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:46,280
Speaker 1: I guess it's like their version of um, like an

430
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,479
Speaker 1: Elks lodge or something like that. Yeah, yeah, they are

431
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: Knights of Columbus. I don't know. Sorry, that's like a

432
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: New England reference. I don't know do they we're in Atlanta.

433
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:57,560
Speaker 1: Do they have Knights of Columbus and Elks lodges down here?

434
00:23:57,600 --> 00:24:01,040
Speaker 1: They have Elk lodges. I'm not totally certain about Knights

435
00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 1: of Columbus. Oh, that's probably not really our bag anyways.

436
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,440
Speaker 1: I don't know that we would necessarily know. Um well,

437
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,680
Speaker 1: I the Elks clubs were really big when I grew up,

438
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,440
Speaker 1: Like that was very much a too important part of

439
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: the local community. Um So, some anthropologists argue that a

440
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:23,400
Speaker 1: lot of this boils down to the manner by which

441
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:27,240
Speaker 1: Melanesian cultures embrace a and this is a from anthropologist

442
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: Lamont and Lyndstrom. That's an awesome name. He uh says

443
00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: that they embrace they quote constant background of imminent cargoism

444
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: or expectation of sudden episodic change, which I really like

445
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,040
Speaker 1: that definition because it plays into nice nicely to this

446
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: idea of the trauma of the outside context problem. And

447
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: I have a few other just quick definitions of cargoism

448
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,400
Speaker 1: that come from a few of these from a few

449
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: different sources we looked at, and I just want to

450
00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: roll through them just so we had just to make

451
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 1: sure we have that firm grounding before we continue. UM.

452
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: Christian Science Monitor correspondent Nick Squire's uh defined it as

453
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: quote a highly complex reaction by bewildered Islanders to the

454
00:25:07,440 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 1: influence of Western modernity. UH. Kirk Huffman, a British anthropologist

455
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,119
Speaker 1: who lived in Venatu for seventeen years. UH the defined

456
00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: it as quote a way for traditional people to come

457
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,879
Speaker 1: to terms with colonialism and Christianity. And Ralph Reagan Reagan AVU,

458
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: director of the Vanatu Natural Cultural Council UM, says quote

459
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 1: it's basically a cultural preservation movement and melds exposure to

460
00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,840
Speaker 1: the West with old belief systems. It served people well uh.

461
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: And he he also describes it as kind of a

462
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 1: rejection of fully packaged Christianity. So it all comes back

463
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,080
Speaker 1: around to this idea that cargo cults were kind of

464
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: the middle ground survival method, and so that they you know,

465
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: they they couldn't they couldn't do nothing but change. But

466
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: this there was a way to change that didn't mean

467
00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,080
Speaker 1: just completely giving in to what the colonials wanted you

468
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:02,439
Speaker 1: to be. Yeah, which is I mean, I guess like

469
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: we'll have to wait until the aliens show up and

470
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 1: conquer us. But like that's kind of how I imagine

471
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: it would go, right, unless it goes I mean, there's

472
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: so many science fiction portrayals of first contact like that.

473
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: But but I suppose the other option is that it

474
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,440
Speaker 1: could just be like utterly violent, you know. Okay, so

475
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: we're about to take a break, but when we come back,

476
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about two specific examples of cargo cults,

477
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: the John From Movement and the Prince Philip Movement. Okay,

478
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:38,760
Speaker 1: we're back, so let's get into John From. This is

479
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: really like the it's really well laid out in this

480
00:26:42,320 --> 00:26:46,960
Speaker 1: long form article in Smithsonian magazine. And uh I I

481
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 1: was absolutely kind of enthralled by this story of I mean,

482
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: I don't I don't remember when the piece was written.

483
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: It was relatively recent though, right, And this guy went

484
00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,000
Speaker 1: and visited this cult and talk to all of them

485
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: interviewed them, and it us cults almost doesn't feel like

486
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: the right term to use, you know. Cargo cult is

487
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: the term the anthropologist coined to describe this, but this

488
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:12,720
Speaker 1: one's been going for so long that it doesn't really

489
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: feel like that. Yeah, and the Smithsonian article in question

490
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,880
Speaker 1: is in John they Trust, and we'll make sure there's

491
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:20,159
Speaker 1: a link to it on a landing page for this

492
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 1: episode step to Blow your Mind dot com. But yeah,

493
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: John From, Uh, who is John From? Well, John From

494
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 1: is probably John from America that we think that's the

495
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,840
Speaker 1: supposed root of it. Nobody really knows who this guy is.

496
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 1: There's a um, you know, record within their culture of him, obviously,

497
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,560
Speaker 1: but we don't know who John From was. Apparently it

498
00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,399
Speaker 1: happened in like the nineteen thirties, right, Yeah, Yeah, and

499
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:50,479
Speaker 1: it uh And it it ties in perfectly. It's it's

500
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,000
Speaker 1: basically the main example of CARGOI isom and it it

501
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: ties into everything we've discussed so far. It entails the

502
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,800
Speaker 1: sort of paradoxical promise of both uh you know, returned

503
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: and preserved customs uh and the alien materialism of the

504
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: distant US, you know, engaging in both uh, both literal

505
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,040
Speaker 1: and metaphorical cargo. Uh. This has been very much the

506
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: one on the model of cargoism where we see the

507
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 1: construction of the fake airplanes and radio towers and landing strips,

508
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: um and it's uh, it's still going. Uh. February is

509
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: John From Day where the faithful celebrate um John From

510
00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: and continue to pray for his return. Yeah, and the

511
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 1: ideas you know, like like we've described with cargo cults before,

512
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: in this episode, he's going to return one day. Uh.

513
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:42,960
Speaker 1: And this is to clarify, this is in Venua to

514
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: on the remote island of tana Um and he's going

515
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: to show up, and he's gonna bring radios, TVs, trucks, boats, watches,

516
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,720
Speaker 1: ice box machines, medicine, Coca Cola, and many wonderful things.

517
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: I'm glad Coca Cola made it in there because it

518
00:28:56,680 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: is it's a pretty wonderful thing. Uh. I didn't in

519
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 1: this episode, but yeah, like uh, it's just interesting. Basically

520
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: the idea is, and you know, in the mythos of

521
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: John From he's a white man who showed up, Uh

522
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 1: told them, Hey, you don't need to go along with

523
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: what these colonialists are telling you to do. Follow me

524
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,760
Speaker 1: and I'll be back. I'm gonna go away, but I'm

525
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: gonna come back and I'm gonna bring stuff to you.

526
00:29:23,120 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 1: You know. I'm glad you mentioned the Coca Cola specifically,

527
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: because if you if you want to get into the

528
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:34,479
Speaker 1: idea of of of of commercial globalization, realization has its

529
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: own kind of religion and cult, visit the Coca Cola

530
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: Museum here in Atlanta because it is light entering the

531
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:46,840
Speaker 1: spaceship temple of a of a of a consumerist church. Uh.

532
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: And I say that without any you know, comment on

533
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:53,080
Speaker 1: the product itself. But it's like, it's like if John

534
00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:55,960
Speaker 1: Draper at the end of of mad Men really did

535
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: found his own religion in a way he did. I mean, really,

536
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 1: if you're confused by the ending of the Madman series,

537
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 1: go to the Coca Cola Museum because that is kind

538
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: of the more sense. Yeah, that well, that everything will

539
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: make sense. You're like, oh John John Hamm's Don Draper

540
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: becomes God at the end of mad Man. I can

541
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: definitely attest to the cult of Coca Cola in my

542
00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 1: international travels. I mean, it's everywhere obviously, and it uh,

543
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: it tastes differently wherever you're going. In fact, I have

544
00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: never been to the Coca Cola Museum despite having lived

545
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 1: here for ten years. But uh, I climbed the Great

546
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: Wall of China when I was sixteen years old, and

547
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,320
Speaker 1: I remember, um, there was like a like sort of

548
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:39,560
Speaker 1: like a rest point, right, and you could buy snacks,

549
00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 1: and there are obviously snacks that were meant to be

550
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 1: for Westerners who were going across the Great Wall of China.

551
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,680
Speaker 1: And they had something called Choca Cola and it was

552
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: designed to look exactly like a you know, a red

553
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 1: and white Coca Cola design, but it tasted kind of

554
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: like if you mixed hot coca cola with you who

555
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,680
Speaker 1: and and uh and it was flat. And I was like, oh, okay,

556
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: like this isn't what I was expecting, but you know,

557
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 1: it's yeah, it's kind of like reached. It's a it's

558
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:17,040
Speaker 1: the specter of consumerist or the hydra of consumerist products. Right.

559
00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:20,360
Speaker 1: It's tentacles are everywhere. So one of my favorite parts

560
00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 1: about this John from America article was that the the

561
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 1: guy who wrote it mentioned in particular how he spoke

562
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:33,440
Speaker 1: to the various leaders because they actually divided into two

563
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: separate and there was almost like a civil war between them.

564
00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: I think they actually ended up having like a battle

565
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: with axes or something like that that's described at one

566
00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 1: point it sounded awful, but um, one of the leaders

567
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: had been to America and had spent time in California,

568
00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:52,200
Speaker 1: and he was like, so you've been, You've seen where

569
00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,600
Speaker 1: the cargo comes from. Why do you still, you know,

570
00:31:55,760 --> 00:31:59,600
Speaker 1: espouses beliefs And he says. The guy's response was, well,

571
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: you know, you Americans have been waiting for Christ to

572
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: come back for two thousand years. How's it any different? Yeah,

573
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 1: And that really kind of hit me and went, oh yeah, okay, sure, yeah,

574
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 1: And it's it's also worth worth noting you mentioned, like

575
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 1: this individual has been to the to the US and

576
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,040
Speaker 1: what there are certain individuals in any of these movements

577
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: that have they they they they have had the experience

578
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 1: of of greater contact with the outside world. But most

579
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: of the people who follow these the belief systems, they

580
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: do not. They live in very um, very rural areas

581
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: with very limited access to any of the modern communication

582
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 1: infrastructure that we take for granted. So let's talk about

583
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: Prince Philip. That's the other one. Uh, And it's again

584
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:49,680
Speaker 1: like another one that's that's uh, you know, highly connected

585
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,640
Speaker 1: to Western culture sort of infiltrating these societies. Yeah, the

586
00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: Prince Philip movement, they venerate Britain's Prince Philip, husband to

587
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth the second born as of this recording, still kicking, uh,

588
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: still kicking at the age. Uh. They cherished portraits of

589
00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:14,360
Speaker 1: Prince Philip. They hold the feasts on his birthday, and

590
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 1: they say things like, this is a quote he is

591
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: he is a god, not a man. Sometimes we hear

592
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: his voice, but we can't see him. So uh. This

593
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 1: on the surface also sounds like just it's easy to

594
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: take a very black and white view with this. You

595
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: just imagine, uh, you know, the indigenous people they see

596
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: this esteemed royal individual from uh, you know, a modern society,

597
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,720
Speaker 1: and they decide, this is a god, let's worship him.

598
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: But it's a little more complicated than that. Um. The

599
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: same thing ended up happening during World War Two with

600
00:33:49,360 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: with Roosevelt. One of the cargo cults referred to him

601
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 1: as Russa Fell, the friendly King of America, and he was,

602
00:33:55,760 --> 00:33:57,600
Speaker 1: you know, one of the deities that they thought would

603
00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 1: bring them this sort of paradise. Yeah. Yeah, and it

604
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 1: and it The thing is it ends up it ties

605
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: into traditional beliefs that they already had, including an ancient

606
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,520
Speaker 1: prophecy that the son of a mountain spirit would venture

607
00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: far away in search of a powerful woman to marry.

608
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: When this ties in particularly to UH to Prince Philip

609
00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: movement here. So anyway, they have this idea of the

610
00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 1: mountain spirit marrying a powerful woman. So then they get

611
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 1: Christian missionaries that that visit with tales of Christ. They

612
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: blend some of that in. Then the locals began to

613
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: see all the esteem that was afforded to Queen Elizabeth

614
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: the Second UH and combined the ideas of their son

615
00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: of a mountain spirit with q E two's royal consort

616
00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: here UH and this would have been the nineteen fifties

617
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: or sixties, and Polife were bolted even more when the

618
00:34:46,040 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 1: royal couple actually visited Vanato in nineteen seventy four. And

619
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 1: there's apparently been an exchange of photographs and tribal icons

620
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 1: and honors. I think like a club was sent UH

621
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: to Prince Philip. UH. They don't hang out together, but

622
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 1: they have sort of a limited exchange, but there's a

623
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: kind of So for me, there's an interesting like, I

624
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: don't know how to put it, Like I guess that

625
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: we in America don't do so as much, but I

626
00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 1: know in Great Britain that there is like this weird

627
00:35:19,080 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: celebrity slash deification reverence for the royal family, right. And

628
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:27,480
Speaker 1: so if you're in the royal family, if you're Queen Elizabeth,

629
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,399
Speaker 1: you're already fairly used to that, right, like that's been

630
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 1: most of your life. Then when you go to this

631
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,359
Speaker 1: far away place and these people literally revere you as

632
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,919
Speaker 1: a god, Um, I wonder like if there's impact to that.

633
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:45,360
Speaker 1: It's it's weird. It reminds me a lot of the

634
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: Rastafari movement. Of course, um believe that that highly Selassie,

635
00:35:51,719 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: the former Emperor of of the Ethiopia, was the Messiah

636
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: and uh, and so you had this situation where during

637
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: his life time, you know, he's in Ethiopia, but in

638
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:05,720
Speaker 1: Jamaica there is this growing number of people who believe

639
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: that he is divine. And then how does he deal

640
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: with that? I mean, because he you know, it's it's

641
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:14,719
Speaker 1: not polite to completely, you know, squash their ideas. But

642
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: then to what extent can you play along with it

643
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 1: without you know, becoming delusional. Yeah, I guess I suppose

644
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,160
Speaker 1: like we'd like to think that somebody like Queen Elizabeth is,

645
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 1: even though she's royal, that she's also decent enough to

646
00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,960
Speaker 1: sort of not allow people to think that she's actually

647
00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 1: like a supernatural entity. Right, Well she's not, but her husband,

648
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: but her husband is. I guess that's fair. Yeah, Well,

649
00:36:38,640 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I actually I am not certain exactly

650
00:36:40,640 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: what they think of her. But surely if she's the

651
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,360
Speaker 1: the queen and there, and if she's the spouse of

652
00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 1: a god, then then she's at least the Dammi God. Right.

653
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,359
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's fascinating, especially since it's occurring with people

654
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,960
Speaker 1: who who were already we in what we think of

655
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 1: as being modern and better and not primitive, right, are

656
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:05,200
Speaker 1: already revering these people in a way that's bordering on religious. Yeah,

657
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: and then but then also to what extent you know, again,

658
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: it's the melding too. So are they taking an existing

659
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 1: belief system and sore just wrapping it in the skin

660
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: Prince Philip, or or are they trying to understand these

661
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,919
Speaker 1: distant British royal figures by wrapping them in the myth

662
00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,480
Speaker 1: or maybe it's a little bit of both. Yeah, I'd

663
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,799
Speaker 1: love to hear if anybody out there has a little

664
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: bit more of a connection to this. I wonder if

665
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 1: maybe this is something that our British listeners are a

666
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 1: little bit more familiar with. Also, when you say wrapping

667
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:35,719
Speaker 1: them in the skin of Prince Philip, immediately think that, like,

668
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 1: that's going to be the eli Roth version of this, right,

669
00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 1: Like he'll make some torture porn movie about a cargo cult,

670
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: but they actually take the royal skin and just wrap

671
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 1: it around the cargo at the end of the movie. Well, yeah,

672
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 1: I could see that happening. Alright. Well, let perfect segue

673
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: to talk about cargo cult science. Yeah, yeah, cargo cult

674
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 1: science and UH. As we mentioned already, this idea comes

675
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: to us from American theoretical physicist Richard Feynman, who lived

676
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:10,319
Speaker 1: nineteen eighteen through UH and particularly he laid this out

677
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventy four cal Tech commencement speech, which

678
00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: is available online and it's also published in some of

679
00:38:16,600 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: his books. Um, but he uses cargo cults as a

680
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:24,960
Speaker 1: metaphor for the public's interest in pseudo science. In particular,

681
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 1: he invoked the cargoist use of landing strips, etcetera. In

682
00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: the John From movement, and his main targets worse when

683
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: he was going after stuff like esp UFOs, natural medicines, um,

684
00:38:38,239 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 1: these things that often seem scientific or their cloaked in science,

685
00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:45,880
Speaker 1: but there's something missing. As you quoted him earlier, the

686
00:38:45,920 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 1: planes don't land. Yeah, and Feineman. Uh. You know, he

687
00:38:50,239 --> 00:38:53,839
Speaker 1: basically took it from looking at quote unquote pseudoscience, which

688
00:38:54,000 --> 00:38:56,240
Speaker 1: doing a show like Stuptable in your mind. We both

689
00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:00,160
Speaker 1: investigate and here that term thrown around a lot. Um.

690
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 1: But he determined that actually, like even outside of pseudo science,

691
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: we don't really live in a scientific world. We like

692
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 1: to think that we do, but we don't. Um. But yeah,

693
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: you're right. Like he was investigating mysticism, things like isolation

694
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 1: tanks and John C. Lily, which we've covered recently. Even psychotherapy.

695
00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 1: He was convinced that a lot of psychotherapy was all

696
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 1: similar to cargo cultism. Uh. And I love this story

697
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: that was in this article that we looked at for

698
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:31,680
Speaker 1: this UM. He went to the famed I don't know

699
00:39:31,719 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: what you call it as it is. It at slin

700
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 1: It's I believe it's in California. It's like one of

701
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 1: those sort of resort slash um body mind therapy places,

702
00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:47,200
Speaker 1: and he was there. The story goes that he was

703
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: there investigating and he was hanging out in a hot

704
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: tub and there was a guy and a girl next

705
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: to him in the hot tub, and the guy says

706
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 1: to the girl, Hey, can I practice my massage techniques

707
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:01,439
Speaker 1: on you? And she says yeah, sure, okay, and uh

708
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 1: he starts rubbing her feet in the bathtub in front

709
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:07,719
Speaker 1: of Richard Feynman and he goes, I think I think

710
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: I'm on your pituitary gland right now, And Fineman goes, uh,

711
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: you're pretty far away from it, buddy, and realizes like that,

712
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,680
Speaker 1: actually this guy was a reflexology student there at the

713
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,279
Speaker 1: Center and had been studying the science of reflexology, which

714
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,239
Speaker 1: is something I'd love to cover for the show. Um

715
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: and but but he like had no basic principal understanding

716
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: of where things were in the body and thought the

717
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: pituitary gland was in your foot. Yeah, that's that's one

718
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: of Fineman is one of these guys who in all

719
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: of his writings, he's he's always throwing out these interesting

720
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: little stories about himself. Uh that you know that they're

721
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 1: often amusing. Uh there, here's a quote from this particular speech.

722
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:52,520
Speaker 1: He said that kind of sums up a lot about

723
00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:54,719
Speaker 1: what we're talking. Says, So, I call these things cargo

724
00:40:54,840 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: cult science because they follow all the apparent precepts and

725
00:40:59,160 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 1: forms of science of investigation, but they're missing something essential

726
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,760
Speaker 1: because the planes don't land. So the form is perfect,

727
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: it looks like it did before, but it doesn't work.

728
00:41:10,760 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: It's it's it's form over function. It's kind of like

729
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: it's a surface level understanding and deification of a thing

730
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:21,759
Speaker 1: without understanding how it actually works. There's something missing and

731
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: what is that? Yeah, and so, like I said, like,

732
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:28,960
Speaker 1: he extrapolates that outwards later on from the pseudoscience world

733
00:41:29,040 --> 00:41:33,839
Speaker 1: to the reality that he's working within in uh scientific academia,

734
00:41:34,360 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 1: and he basically comes to the collusion that our science

735
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,719
Speaker 1: is basically to us is well, just give all the

736
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: information that you've looked at to other people and that

737
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,319
Speaker 1: will help them judge the value of your contribution. Right.

738
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: That's essentially how he viewed peer view uh science and um.

739
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: But then he said, what about all these revelations in

740
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 1: the past where like we've done scientific experiments, they have

741
00:41:57,200 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 1: been published articles we've accepted them is fact, and then

742
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: twenty fifty a hundred years later, we look back and

743
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 1: we go, oh, they carried the two wrong on that equation.

744
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,839
Speaker 1: We've been totally wrong about this the whole time, and

745
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,480
Speaker 1: we reassess it and then realize, well, that that scientific

746
00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: system didn't really work, but this time it will. You know. Yeah, well,

747
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:22,080
Speaker 1: I think and that it gets I mean, you know, ultimately,

748
00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: what he's arguing is missing in these these models of

749
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: cargo cult sciences, scientific integrity and strict adherence to the

750
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: scientific method. So in a way, what we're talking about

751
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 1: here is realizing that scientific knowledge itself can have errors

752
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 1: in it, but it's the but the scientific method that

753
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 1: is the path where we by which we continue to

754
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:45,640
Speaker 1: change our scientific understanding of the world. We continue to

755
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 1: evolve it and and realize where we've made mistakes. Uh,

756
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 1: where past theories were inaccurate. Uh. And you know, to

757
00:42:54,400 --> 00:42:57,239
Speaker 1: his point, you have to be ready to fail. You

758
00:42:57,280 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: have to make your material um readily avail well so

759
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 1: that individuals can point out that critics can point out

760
00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 1: where you may have gone wrong as well as read

761
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,520
Speaker 1: you know, where you think you went right. Yeah, he

762
00:43:09,680 --> 00:43:11,319
Speaker 1: there's a point sort of towards the end of this

763
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 1: article that we read where Fineman starts talking about sort

764
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: of you know, if you've worked in the public sector

765
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,160
Speaker 1: or well, I guess it's not necessarily a public sector.

766
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 1: If you've just worked in academia, especially doing science, you

767
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 1: know that for some particular reasons, there's there's dirty financial

768
00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,399
Speaker 1: realities behind it, right, And he said, you know, if

769
00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,440
Speaker 1: we are only publishing the results that make us look good,

770
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 1: that's dishonest. And he had a bunch of contemporaries that

771
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: we're doing. You know, they would say, well, these results

772
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 1: didn't come out the way that we need them too

773
00:43:39,760 --> 00:43:41,319
Speaker 1: for us to get funding to do the thing we

774
00:43:41,360 --> 00:43:43,000
Speaker 1: want to do, So we're not going to share them

775
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: with the world. Now here's where I'm going to take

776
00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: it a little bit step further. And I imagine that

777
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: there's some people out in the audience who are going

778
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: to disagree with me strongly, So uh, send those angry

779
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: tweets or hate mail to uh blow the mind at

780
00:43:58,040 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot Com. I thought you're gonna give

781
00:44:00,120 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 1: Joe's address, Oh yeah, at Joe McCormick. No, Uh, I

782
00:44:05,719 --> 00:44:08,120
Speaker 1: would say, if if Fineman was you know still looking

783
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:11,160
Speaker 1: at this today in modern society, we're looking at science

784
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: to provide us with the cargo and to bring us

785
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: the paradise, the same way that we look down on

786
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: the Melanese for doing so right. We think of without

787
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: really understanding it too. We think of science is sort

788
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:31,040
Speaker 1: of the religion that's going to bring us the thing eventually. Uh.

789
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: And I see this especially in science entertainment, both on

790
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:40,400
Speaker 1: television and social media and yes podcasts. Uh And and

791
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:42,959
Speaker 1: you know some of our peers out there that there's

792
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 1: sort of just a like, wow, isn't science great? Look

793
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,279
Speaker 1: at this? Look at this thing that we found out

794
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: about science? Weird? Huh cool. Look, it's defining the world

795
00:44:50,520 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 1: for you, but there's no like real understanding of what

796
00:44:53,920 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: it actually means. It's just taking like another sort of

797
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 1: framework and substituting it for cargo cultism. Yeah. It's just

798
00:45:02,520 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 1: the sort of the deification of of a science effigy, loving,

799
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,600
Speaker 1: loving the form, loving the things that it's given us,

800
00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:15,080
Speaker 1: but not really necessarily involving a deep understanding of how

801
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: it works and how it has brought us these things,

802
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,399
Speaker 1: and being able to properly extrapolate what it can realistically

803
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: give us in the future. I mean, this is the

804
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 1: thing that I feel like a lot of us fall

805
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: into at varying levels. So I'm not saying that everybody

806
00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 1: necessarily has this sort of yea science bumper sticker level

807
00:45:37,760 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 1: of understanding, you know, an appreciation for science. But but

808
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:43,319
Speaker 1: even just you know, the average person, you can sort of,

809
00:45:44,120 --> 00:45:47,680
Speaker 1: you know, subconsciously decide, Hey, you know, I don't really

810
00:45:47,680 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: need to worry about my life, my quality of life

811
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: in twenty forty years because science will surely figure that out.

812
00:45:56,239 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about this particular um ecological

813
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:03,280
Speaker 1: cold problem. I don't have to worry about climate change

814
00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:05,359
Speaker 1: because the sciences is there. We can figure it out.

815
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 1: I don't need to worry about um, you know, like

816
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 1: a comet or meteorite and crashing into the Earth because

817
00:46:11,680 --> 00:46:14,239
Speaker 1: the sciences is coming together on that. Science is going

818
00:46:14,320 --> 00:46:18,839
Speaker 1: to reach its divine hand in and snatch that planetary

819
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 1: body away before it can destroy me. Yeah. We almost

820
00:46:21,480 --> 00:46:23,600
Speaker 1: see that in a lot of our like a sort

821
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 1: of tent pole, big blockbuster apocalyptic movies, right Like a

822
00:46:27,960 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: lot of times now, the hero who solves the problem,

823
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:34,320
Speaker 1: whether it's the comet coming at Earth or it's aliens

824
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 1: showing up on our doorsteps. Yeah, I mean Independence Day

825
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,280
Speaker 1: like that is that is total cargo cult science, cargo

826
00:46:41,400 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 1: cult computer science. I guess where it's just like, oh,

827
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 1: don't worry, science has got this computer hacker comes in

828
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: and then it just all taken care of and awards

829
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: off a complete outside context problem that really would it

830
00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: should have just wiped out everybody. And yeah, it's silly,

831
00:46:57,040 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 1: but we also just sort of accept it because science,

832
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:04,239
Speaker 1: it's is somewhat of a religion for us. Now. Um.

833
00:47:04,440 --> 00:47:06,960
Speaker 1: Feynman had a quote about this. He said, science is

834
00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: the belief in the ignorance of experts. And I like

835
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: that especially um. And he also said that, you know,

836
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: it's up to all of us to assess the premises

837
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:18,720
Speaker 1: and conclusions that are presented to us by scientific research.

838
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: It's not just we shouldn't just accept some panel of invisible,

839
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 1: peer reviewed people telling us this is good, this, this

840
00:47:27,640 --> 00:47:30,480
Speaker 1: will do it. Um. And I'd like to think, you know,

841
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 1: this applies to our show. We try to do that

842
00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: in the research and uh, but I think also, as

843
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 1: we suggested in that Wicked Problems episode that we did,

844
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:40,760
Speaker 1: that it's up to all of us to participate. So, yeah,

845
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:43,360
Speaker 1: Robert and Joe and I can sit here and relay

846
00:47:43,400 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 1: all these facts and papers to you, but don't just

847
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:51,399
Speaker 1: take it as you know, the religious fact, right, Like,

848
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,480
Speaker 1: go out there and get involved yourself. Look at some

849
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: of the stuff yourself. I think you'll find some stuff

850
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,400
Speaker 1: between the lines that we're not necessarily picking up on.

851
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 1: Everybody approaches this different indeed. All right, So this brings

852
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 1: us to the idea of cargo cult programming UM. And

853
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: this was coined by software engineer Steve McConnell in two

854
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:12,880
Speaker 1: thousand and He was very much playing off Feynman's definition

855
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: of cargo cult science, even quoting him in the intro.

856
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: And this again harkins to the notion of fake airfields,

857
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: meant to invoke the return of cargo UM, the idea

858
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 1: that the cargoists understood the form but not the content. Likewise,

859
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: some programmers, according to McDonald right that they think that

860
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 1: they know what code does, they know how it, but

861
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: they don't know how it does it. They can't make

862
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:41,279
Speaker 1: meaningful changes to the code. They can only tinker and

863
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: toy with the pre existing form. Yeah, this is UM

864
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 1: an extended argument in UM. Are you familiar with Douglas Rushkov, No,

865
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 1: I don't believe so. He's a he's a really interesting

866
00:48:52,560 --> 00:48:54,480
Speaker 1: media theorist, and he had this book came out a

867
00:48:54,520 --> 00:48:57,400
Speaker 1: couple of years ago called Programmer, Be Programmed. The essential

868
00:48:57,480 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: argument was, you know, all of us in modern days

869
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,080
Speaker 1: society are interacting with our phones or interacting with our computers.

870
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: We get how the operating system works. Some of us.

871
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: We we get that, right, Like we we know how

872
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:11,399
Speaker 1: to like make it do the things we wanted to do,

873
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 1: but we don't understand it beneath that layer. And that subsequently,

874
00:49:15,920 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 1: that kind of misunderstanding can lead to us being uh

875
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: co opted or manipulated in some ways. Um. And I

876
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: think largely his argument is like economically, but uh, that's

877
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,280
Speaker 1: kind of the same thing here, right, it's like, understand

878
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 1: it just a little bit deeper. I don't think like

879
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,000
Speaker 1: these guys are making the argument that we should all

880
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:38,920
Speaker 1: become like professional level coders here, but sort of understand

881
00:49:38,960 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: how things work under the hood a little bit so

882
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 1: that those who do aren't able to take advantage of you. Yeah.

883
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: And and in in a sense too, it also gets

884
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,839
Speaker 1: into the idea, you know, standing on the shoulders of giants, right,

885
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: where you have this accumulated system and no, no one

886
00:49:56,400 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 1: really understands everything about it, so all we can do

887
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: is just tinker with it and change it a little

888
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: bit without really creating any kind of perhaps necessary drastic

889
00:50:07,080 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: changes that would actually improve the product. So McConnell says

890
00:50:11,280 --> 00:50:15,920
Speaker 1: that the cargo cult programmers refused to acknowledge the tradeoffs

891
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:21,920
Speaker 1: involved in either process oriented or commitment oriented development. Uh,

892
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:25,279
Speaker 1: and the difference they're being like a process oriented um

893
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:28,120
Speaker 1: development involves like, you know, strict adherence to this is

894
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:30,960
Speaker 1: how we create things. And then the commitment oriented is

895
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,800
Speaker 1: like everybody here really knows their stuff, give them the

896
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 1: freedom in the space they need to do it. This

897
00:50:37,120 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 1: is like another application of again like these are cargo cultism,

898
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,240
Speaker 1: I think, and wicked problems are highly connected. Because McConnell

899
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: sort of lays out look like those are two theories

900
00:50:47,480 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: of running an organization. But there are impostor organizations out there, right,

901
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: and so he calls like the process impostor organizations are

902
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: the ones that they see a successful company and they go, well,

903
00:50:59,320 --> 00:51:01,480
Speaker 1: how are they succes sessful? They're generating a lot of

904
00:51:01,520 --> 00:51:03,800
Speaker 1: documents and they have a lot of meetings so we

905
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: should do the same things, will generate a lot of documents,

906
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:08,400
Speaker 1: and we'll have a bunch of meetings. But then they

907
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 1: don't understand that this is that's not what makes the

908
00:51:11,320 --> 00:51:14,319
Speaker 1: other people successful, right, That's not what's responsible for it.

909
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:18,200
Speaker 1: And likewise the commitment one. There's impostors as well, where

910
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:21,400
Speaker 1: they say, well, that organization, I think Microsoft was the

911
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 1: example he used at the time, was that organization. They

912
00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 1: don't generate a lot of documents. They offer stock options

913
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:29,879
Speaker 1: to their employees, and they expect that their employees will

914
00:51:29,880 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 1: work a lot of overtime, So we should do the

915
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:34,919
Speaker 1: same thing. Uh, we should do that, And they don't

916
00:51:34,960 --> 00:51:37,040
Speaker 1: realize that's not what leads to success. The reason why

917
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: people are working the overtime is because they love their jobs.

918
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: They love what they're doing, and that's what's leading to

919
00:51:42,080 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 1: the success. Yeah. Yeah, And certainly I think there are

920
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:47,560
Speaker 1: their applications for this and pretty much any discipline in

921
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 1: any business, Like to what extent does an individual or

922
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: an organization really understand the business or the product in

923
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:58,840
Speaker 1: which they are engaged into. What extent are they just

924
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: they build those airplane effigies? Are they just creating the

925
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,400
Speaker 1: things that seem to be to line up with success

926
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: and hoping that the cargo comes alright. So the final

927
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:12,920
Speaker 1: idea I want to mention, and we've, as with all these,

928
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,080
Speaker 1: we've kind of touched on some of this already is

929
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: the idea of cargo cult sustainability. And this is another

930
00:52:17,719 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 1: idea that came out of the seventies, UH, from this

931
00:52:20,160 --> 00:52:24,200
Speaker 1: time from sociologist William R. Caton Jr. In his paper

932
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:29,840
Speaker 1: Environmental Optimism Cargo Cults in Modern Society from we assume

933
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 1: that our technological advancement will save us as it seemingly

934
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,600
Speaker 1: has in the past, without really backing that idea up

935
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:41,759
Speaker 1: very well. Instead, quote runaway world technology reduces rather than

936
00:52:41,920 --> 00:52:47,040
Speaker 1: enhances the habitats carrying capacity. All forms of human organization

937
00:52:47,080 --> 00:52:49,719
Speaker 1: and behavior that are based on the obsolete assumption of

938
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:54,520
Speaker 1: limitlessness will necessarily change somehow to forms that are combatible

939
00:52:54,760 --> 00:53:00,640
Speaker 1: with finite limits of the world ecosystem. Um. Here's another quote.

940
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:03,920
Speaker 1: This is from Overshoot, which was one of the books

941
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 1: by William R. Katon Jr. Said, quote the type two

942
00:53:07,640 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 1: cargo cult which we're talking about here, Uh belief held

943
00:53:11,640 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: that great technological breakthroughs would inevitably occur in the near

944
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,080
Speaker 1: future and would enable man to continue indefinitely expanding the

945
00:53:19,120 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 1: world's human caring capacity. This was a mere faith in

946
00:53:22,920 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: a faith like stock market speculation. It had no firmer

947
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:32,879
Speaker 1: basis than naive statistical extrapolation, the uncritical supposition that past

948
00:53:32,960 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: technological advances could be taken as representative samples of an

949
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:42,200
Speaker 1: inherently unending series of comparable achievements. And I think that

950
00:53:42,200 --> 00:53:45,160
Speaker 1: that nicely sums it up. He he ends up breaking

951
00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:47,720
Speaker 1: it down even in an even greater detail, talking about

952
00:53:47,719 --> 00:53:51,120
Speaker 1: our our belief that they'll be unlimited food, unlimited alternatives,

953
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 1: unlimited energy that will be able to you know fully

954
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 1: harness the Sun's power, um that there'll be other technological escapes,

955
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,920
Speaker 1: and even ideological escape will prevent themselves. So get from

956
00:54:01,920 --> 00:54:04,880
Speaker 1: the idea that we think the technology will come and

957
00:54:04,920 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 1: we think that we can change and that in our

958
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,200
Speaker 1: ascension we can change the rules of the game that

959
00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: we are losing. You know what that sounds like to me?

960
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: Uh the like inherent optimism of Gene Roddenberry's Star Trek

961
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: vision that like, eventually we're going to get to a

962
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:24,440
Speaker 1: point where like we can just uh print food, you know,

963
00:54:24,680 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 1: and we don't need to worry about food, and we

964
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,320
Speaker 1: don't need to worry about energy. Uh, and we won't

965
00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: need to worry about war on Earth. Uh. It'll be

966
00:54:33,400 --> 00:54:36,919
Speaker 1: the you know, exploring the rest of the universe that

967
00:54:36,920 --> 00:54:39,400
Speaker 1: that brings about those problems again. Yeah, we just have

968
00:54:39,480 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 1: faith that the cargo will come and we don't think

969
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: about all the steps necessary mechanisms responsible for that happening. Yeah, exactly.

970
00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: All right, So there you have it. I think we're

971
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: gonna leave it there. Um, you know, we hope this

972
00:54:51,160 --> 00:54:53,440
Speaker 1: one will be a great topic to just stir up

973
00:54:53,520 --> 00:54:56,839
Speaker 1: conversation about, you know, about where we are now, about

974
00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: where we've been in the past, and where we're going

975
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: to go in the future, both in reality and in

976
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 1: our various science science fiction models out there. Yeah. So,

977
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:07,240
Speaker 1: if you have insights to add to this, or maybe

978
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,160
Speaker 1: you had some kind of epiphany while you're listening to this,

979
00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: or maybe you're furious at me or Robert right now,

980
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:14,719
Speaker 1: you can write into us, first of all, on Facebook,

981
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: Twitter tumbler. I suppose you could also write into us

982
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,839
Speaker 1: on Instagram. I don't quite know how that works yet,

983
00:55:19,880 --> 00:55:22,920
Speaker 1: but I guess we'll maybe post an image of the

984
00:55:22,960 --> 00:55:25,520
Speaker 1: episode to go along with us. Uh, so you could

985
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,680
Speaker 1: write in there too, uh let us know what you think.

986
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,520
Speaker 1: Or you can just get in touch with us the

987
00:55:30,520 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 1: old fashioned way and send love or hate mail to

988
00:55:34,400 --> 00:55:46,520
Speaker 1: blow the mind at how stuff works dot com. Well

989
00:55:46,560 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 1: more on this than thousands of other topics. Is it

990
00:55:48,960 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot Com? Love ber twent five pot

991
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 1: proper