WEBVTT - “This is How Grooming Works”…. (From the Epstein Survivors’ Therapist) 0:00:02.000 --> 0:00:05.320 Hey, they're folks, and welcome to this latest episode of 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:09.840 Amy and TJ Presents Today. It's about the Epstein survivors 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:12.920 who robes last week, just last week, we saw that 0:00:13.000 --> 0:00:16.959 press conference, powerful press conference outside the US Capitol, with 0:00:17.040 --> 0:00:20.840 many victims stepping forward wanting more Epstein files to be released. 0:00:21.640 --> 0:00:24.599 And it's wild to think that these are victims who 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:28.640 suffered in some cases decades ago, who are still healing 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:34.120 after decades, but are still as well being victimized. They say, 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:36.560 by what we're seeing in the press. 0:00:36.280 --> 0:00:39.320 That's right, and there is a reason why we're just 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:45.000 now seeing their faces and their names. They have been anonymous, 0:00:45.000 --> 0:00:48.919 they were Jane Doe, number one, two, three, whatever, because 0:00:49.120 --> 0:00:51.839 of all of the reasons why you tend to protect 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:56.200 obviously victims of sexual abuse, sexual assault, but also there's 0:00:56.280 --> 0:00:59.640 just so much fear surrounding this case, so much talk 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:03.600 about powerful men and powerful people being able to exact revenge, 0:01:03.640 --> 0:01:07.759 and just honestly, for decades, not being believed, not being heard, 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:11.560 not being listened to. So it's a huge, huge deal 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.080 that these women are finally stepping forward and putting their 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.040 names and faces out there. And that's scary and it 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:22.160 can have unintended consequences. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:24.360 And look, we've talked for years, it's hard to even 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:32.039 imagine the trauma, the healing psychologically that is necessary, I 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:35.920 guess to continue on with life. Unfortunately, Virginia Juphrey, of 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:38.319 course we know as a young lady who took her 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.200 own life just this year, who was very outspoken Epstein survivor. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:46.440 But we wondered, like, how are they getting help? Who 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:51.520 is helping these women sometimes from their teen years, Who 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:54.200 has helping them and who is continuing to help them 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.919 along their path? And that is why we have Randy 0:01:56.960 --> 0:02:00.680 Cogan with us today, a license psychotherapist who has worked 0:02:00.720 --> 0:02:04.080 with a number of these victims for decades now and 0:02:04.280 --> 0:02:07.760 continues to do so. Randy, did we thank you for 0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.880 being here? But do we get that right? That what 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:14.720 happens if you have been doing all of this healing 0:02:14.919 --> 0:02:18.639 for all these many years and even decades, and then boom, 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:20.960 all of this press coverage, all of this back and 0:02:21.000 --> 0:02:25.680 forth is happening. Are you being victimized? Does it really 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:30.240 open up a whole new avenue of healing that is necessary? 0:02:31.040 --> 0:02:35.120 Yes, it does, And throughout the years from two thousand 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:38.799 and eight, from before two thousand and eight, healing has 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:43.800 been disrupted over and over and over again. You know, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:47.520 first it was reported and Epstein was arrested. Okay, now 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.840 we're moving towards justice. There's a chance here that they 0:02:50.840 --> 0:02:54.519 can feel some sort of justice. Then the sweetheart deal 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:59.440 came about, and the legal team, the prosecutor alex Acosta, 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:05.680 nobody informed the victims of this sweetheart deal. So in 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:09.799 two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, the survivors 0:03:09.840 --> 0:03:13.919 that I was treating, I was the individual who had 0:03:13.960 --> 0:03:17.680 to let them know about the sweetheart deal, and it 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:21.120 was quite devastating because what came out of that sweetheart 0:03:21.160 --> 0:03:25.120 deal is they were looked at a child prostitutes because 0:03:25.120 --> 0:03:28.560 he was charged with the solicitation of child prostitution. So 0:03:28.680 --> 0:03:32.000 the revictimization started right out of the gate when he 0:03:32.040 --> 0:03:38.160 was initially arrested, and it continued throughout the past eighteen years, 0:03:38.720 --> 0:03:42.000 up and down, on and off. So there hasn't been 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:46.240 a steady stream of that healing process that we would 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:52.000 like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited, 0:03:52.400 --> 0:03:54.520 and groomed as young teens. 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:58.920 Rennie, can I ask you how you first got involved 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:02.320 with some of these Epstein victims. How were you first 0:04:02.320 --> 0:04:04.440 introduced and how did you begin to work with them? 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:09.200 I starting in two thousand and four, I was working 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:13.480 at Palm Beach County Victim Services. And at Victim Services 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:18.400 we worked in the courthouse and we worked with victims 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:22.400 of violent crimes in Palm Beach County, so we worked 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:25.280 very closely with law enforcement. We worked very closely with 0:04:25.560 --> 0:04:29.640 the legal system as well as the FBI. When Epstein 0:04:29.720 --> 0:04:35.680 was initially arrested and the FBI began the investigation, the 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:41.479 victim specialists through the FBI referred the victims to Victim Services. 0:04:41.560 --> 0:04:45.200 At that time, the team at Victim Services felt that 0:04:45.600 --> 0:04:49.000 it would be in all of their best interests. I 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.359 was the main therapist who worked with the victims because 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.680 everybody's story was similar. The trauma, trauma was the victimization 0:04:57.880 --> 0:04:59.760 was similar. I can't say the trauma was, but the 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:05.400 stimization was similar. So that's how I started getting involved 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:09.679 and treating the survivors. And then as more individuals came about, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:13.760 when attorneys started getting involved and started picking up clients, 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:17.240 they too began referring their victims to me as well. 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.480 How many Initially, I want to ask, were you working 0:05:22.480 --> 0:05:25.920 with And when did you know this was I guess 0:05:26.000 --> 0:05:27.839 you probably couldn't imagine it was going to become what 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:30.159 it now has become, how big of a story. But 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:35.000 when did you first start to start getting a little 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:39.159 indication of this thing was going to be much bigger 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.159 than maybe a case you'd ever worked on before. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:46.760 Well, at the time, I probably, if I'm not mistaken, 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:51.160 I was treating about seven victims at the time, seven girls, 0:05:51.760 --> 0:05:56.440 seven teenagers. They were teenagers at the time. I thought 0:05:56.440 --> 0:06:01.200 it was strange that I was deposed pretty quickly Jeffrey's attorneys. 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:03.720 I thought that was a red flag that they were 0:06:03.720 --> 0:06:06.840 deposing me so early as well that I just started 0:06:06.839 --> 0:06:10.800 seeing them when I heard about the sweetheart deal, and 0:06:11.240 --> 0:06:15.080 that myself, Brad Edwards and other attorneys had to inform 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.320 their clients. That was a red flag for me. When 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:24.280 I saw the charge of prostitution, I knew that this 0:06:24.360 --> 0:06:28.160 is a whole different ballgame now, because they just kept 0:06:28.160 --> 0:06:33.480 revictimizing and accusing and accusing, and the only individual who 0:06:33.520 --> 0:06:37.840 was seeking support at that time was Epstein. So it 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.960 was a huge red flag for me right at the 0:06:40.960 --> 0:06:43.960 beginning when they made the sweetheart deal. 0:06:45.080 --> 0:06:50.680 You know, Randy. It's so it's mind blowing to know 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:53.880 that here in twenty twenty five, this is the story 0:06:53.920 --> 0:06:56.760 that it is. And these women now who were girls then, 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.840 are just now feeling strong enough and safe enough perhaps 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:06.279 even to come forward and to hear them have to 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:08.680 explain the guilt and the shame. We've heard this in 0:07:08.720 --> 0:07:13.040 other cases, but this one is significant because people keep asking, well, 0:07:13.080 --> 0:07:15.680 why would you keep going back, Why would you fly 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:17.800 on a private plane, Why would you go to the 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:21.960 island with him? Why would you not have run for 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:24.520 the hills or run to a police station. Once that 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:28.120 massage became more than a massage, what do you say 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:31.000 to those people who have those types of questions about 0:07:31.280 --> 0:07:32.200 these young. 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:36.160 Girls, Well, the first thing they need to understand is 0:07:36.280 --> 0:07:39.560 what it needs to be groomed by an individual. Okay, 0:07:39.720 --> 0:07:44.680 Jeffrey Epstein used his caring relationship, and of course I 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.720 use that term loosely carrying relationship with each one of 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.920 his victims as his weapon. So right from the start, 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:54.440 he got to know each of them, He got to 0:07:54.480 --> 0:07:58.080 know their families, he got to know about their dreams, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:03.160 their goals, and he use that to manipulate them, to 0:08:03.360 --> 0:08:07.400 exploit them. The way that he saw fit and that 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:12.000 made him feel good. So once you develop that relationship, 0:08:12.080 --> 0:08:17.320 there's something that's called deceptive trust development, and that was 0:08:17.560 --> 0:08:21.840 something that Epstein banked on, was that deceptive trust that 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:24.560 he built in each of these girls. Now, remember we're 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:30.200 talking about the ages of thirteen to sixteen, So what 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.880 do we expect from a thirteen year old girl a 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:37.920 sixteen year old girl? Should we expect them to understand 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:42.800 when they're being groomed and manipulated? Many girls felt that 0:08:42.920 --> 0:08:45.760 they really didn't have a choice because they didn't want 0:08:45.800 --> 0:08:49.040 to disappoint him. He was such a nice, caring man. 0:08:49.640 --> 0:08:53.479 He assured some of them he would help families with immigration, 0:08:54.080 --> 0:08:57.400 would help dreams come true, help them become models. He 0:08:57.440 --> 0:09:01.200 wrote reference letters to colleges for some of these girls. 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:03.880 They didn't want to hurt him. They didn't want to 0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:10.840 betray him because they had this deceptive relationship that Jeffrey 0:09:10.840 --> 0:09:15.120 built with each of them. So it's not easy along 0:09:15.160 --> 0:09:18.199 their lines with that. Grooming is a form of mental abuse. 0:09:18.840 --> 0:09:22.560 Rooming makes the victim believe that they are part of 0:09:22.600 --> 0:09:26.199 the abuse themselves, and that's where that guilt and shame 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:27.000 comes from. 0:09:27.679 --> 0:09:30.720 What was my role, am I going to get in 0:09:30.800 --> 0:09:31.440 trouble too. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:35.480 Many victims in two thousand and eight were waiting to 0:09:35.520 --> 0:09:40.040 get arrested because they believed that they was just as 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:44.400 much to blame as Jeffrey because of that manipulation that 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:45.400 I'm speaking. 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.480 Of, Randy, was that job one for you? Almost when 0:09:49.480 --> 0:09:52.960 these victims first came in, you had to almost break 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.680 down and convince them that they were not the problem. 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:00.760 That they had to be convinced to I the word convinced, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.199 but you explain it, it make it sound almost they 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:05.800 had to be convinced that they were actually victims. Was 0:10:05.840 --> 0:10:08.080 that a common theme in these young women when you 0:10:08.120 --> 0:10:10.920 first started talking to them, is that was like that 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:12.400 was the first work you had to do. 0:10:13.360 --> 0:10:16.240 That is the theme that has been ongoing for the 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.560 past twenty years because they still second guess at times. 0:10:20.840 --> 0:10:23.839 There are some girls that want to speak but are 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:28.600 afraid to speak. Even when when Epstein died, there was 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:32.280 the there were these conflictual feelings because what about all 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:34.280 the times that he was good to them? 0:10:34.720 --> 0:10:36.200 What about all the times. 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.760 That when some of them needed money they were in 0:10:38.840 --> 0:10:39.559 a pinch. 0:10:39.559 --> 0:10:40.960 Jeffrey would show up for them. 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:44.680 So there there's a lot of inner conflict that goes 0:10:44.720 --> 0:10:48.520 on with grooming and manipulation and mental abuse. So yes, 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:52.880 that is an ongoing feat that we continue to work on. 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:57.280 Randy, you said you started out with around seven young 0:10:57.320 --> 0:11:00.280 women who you were counseling at the beginning of this 0:11:00.360 --> 0:11:04.960 in early two thousands. I don't even personally have an 0:11:05.000 --> 0:11:09.080 idea of the scope of the number of women and 0:11:09.120 --> 0:11:12.040 young women were talking about. Has that number grown in 0:11:12.120 --> 0:11:15.800 terms of your circle of clients, and do you even 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.280 have a concept of how many young women were talking 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.280 about who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. 0:11:22.720 --> 0:11:28.920 We're talking hundreds hundreds of women, so many still will 0:11:28.960 --> 0:11:33.680 not speak about it, so many are still suppressing between 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:37.640 two thousand and eight and twenty and nineteen, after that 0:11:37.640 --> 0:11:41.840 that deal came out. Obviously, the victims were just distraught. 0:11:42.320 --> 0:11:47.360 They felt betrayed, they felt devalued, they felt like they 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.120 didn't belong, They felt like the predators were more important 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:53.800 than the victims. So a number of them hid for 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:56.800 many years. They wanted to put everything behind them, They 0:11:56.840 --> 0:12:01.760 wanted to completely just completely wipe this from their memory 0:12:01.760 --> 0:12:05.920 and from their experiences. Well, in the psychological world, we 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.240 know that when we suppress something, it stays inside. It 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.440 doesn't just go away, right, so that will build. In 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:17.720 twenty nineteen, when the FBI started contacting the survivors, going 0:12:17.720 --> 0:12:22.240 to their homes, going to their work, this was like, Okay, 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:25.960 there's nowhere for me to escape anymore. So everything that 0:12:26.000 --> 0:12:30.120 they were attempting to suppress, everything came back, not only 0:12:30.160 --> 0:12:34.680 the trauma and the experiences with Jeffrey, but also the 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.360 guilt and shame that they've been suppressing as well. So 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:42.160 it was starting back again. A number of girls that 0:12:42.960 --> 0:12:45.440 I saw in two thousand and eight were able to 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.480 find me again in twenty and nineteen, so I was 0:12:48.520 --> 0:12:51.480 able to continue or go back to treating them again, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:56.319 and I'm still doing so. But yes, a large number 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:01.680 of survivors came wanting treatment and wanting to get help, 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.679 wanting to understand what happened over these past, you know, 0:13:05.840 --> 0:13:09.480 so many years. Some girls didn't even know that he 0:13:09.640 --> 0:13:13.840 was released after the Sweetheart Deal. When they were approaching 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:17.720 in twenty nineteen, they were shocked to hear that he 0:13:17.840 --> 0:13:22.400 was out of prison the entire time, so that skyrocketed 0:13:22.440 --> 0:13:23.000 their fear. 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.199 Yeah, I mean in twenty fifteen, I spoke with then 0:13:28.280 --> 0:13:31.800 Virginia Roberts, Virginia Jeffrey and she was in hiding. She 0:13:32.559 --> 0:13:37.040 went to Australia. She talked about this harrowing decision with 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.960 her then husband to get out and to hide in 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:44.200 Australia as far away as she could, or she thought 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:48.280 from Jeffrey Epstein and to see how her life ended 0:13:48.800 --> 0:13:54.199 just a few months ago is beyond heartbreaking. I am 0:13:54.280 --> 0:13:58.400 curious just in terms of the mental health struggles that 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:01.440 these young women are facing. People kind of say, oh, 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:04.720 you know they might poopoo. You see what happened to Virginia, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:07.880 And I know this is what you're fighting for and 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:10.680 fighting against, certainly to not have that be the fate 0:14:11.280 --> 0:14:13.360 of so many of these other young girls. But how 0:14:13.440 --> 0:14:18.480 serious is their mental health at this point? How serious 0:14:19.360 --> 0:14:22.440 are their conditions? And are you concerned that? I mean, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:25.720 it rises to that level where, yes, for young women 0:14:25.760 --> 0:14:28.880 and now grown women are they don't want to live 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:30.720 with what they've experienced. 0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:37.040 Virginia Kufre's death hit many survivors in a way that 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:42.080 they did not expect. It was devastating, It was tragic 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.920 to them, and many questions from them were is this 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:49.200 my path? Is this something do I need to start 0:14:49.240 --> 0:14:52.480 looking over my shoulder, Is this what's going to happen? 0:14:53.200 --> 0:14:57.160 And also on the other side of it, we need 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:02.720 to continue Virginia's legacy. Virginia spoke up for so many 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.600 of the survivors when nobody else had a voice, and 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.120 many girls don't want that legacy to end with Virginia. 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.160 They want her voice to continue. So there's a lot 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:17.800 of inner conflict going on with many. They want to 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:20.720 use their voice. They're angry, They're angry about what's going 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:24.600 on right now. They feel again as if the government 0:15:24.680 --> 0:15:27.800 is letting them down. But on the other side of 0:15:27.840 --> 0:15:30.680 that too, what happens if I do speak up? What 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:35.600 are the consequences? And throughout the years some who have 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.400 spoken over the past years have the public has not 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.600 been very nice and that's been a trauma in and 0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:47.280 of it themselves, not believing them they knew what they 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.120 were doing. They just were doing it for the money. 0:15:50.360 --> 0:15:52.200 Oh did the money run out? Is that why they 0:15:52.240 --> 0:15:57.280 want to talk now? People don't understand what process they 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.360 went through and that they're still going through. I've been 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:04.560 doing this for forty years. I have never seen a 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.120 case go on as long as this. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:21.000 Where does the closure in those cases, Does it come 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:26.720 only after justice through our justice system or what? Or 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:30.680 is it time? What have you found in your forty 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:33.160 years is the thing. I'm sure it can be different 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:37.320 for everybody that eventually or certainly is necessary to be 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.160 able to turn that corner, to have to be on 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:41.960 the right path to healing. 0:16:43.120 --> 0:16:44.280 Well, it's hard. 0:16:44.680 --> 0:16:47.920 In any cases that I have worked with that have 0:16:47.960 --> 0:16:51.720 gone to trial, which have been hundreds of them. Justice 0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:56.040 doesn't come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn't come from 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:59.840 a twenty year to life sentence, okay, Because once that 0:17:00.600 --> 0:17:03.440 once the sentence, once they've given the sentence, once they've 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.720 gone to prison, what do the victims have left now 0:17:06.760 --> 0:17:07.240 to deal with? 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:10.199 Right? They have the trauma left to deal with. 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:14.000 Because before, when you're going through court, when you know, 0:17:14.119 --> 0:17:16.640 when you're meeting with your attorneys, when you're going through 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:20.600 depositions and whatnot, that's a good distraction. You don't feel 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.399 like it's a good distraction, but it's a distraction that's 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:26.640 your control. You have some element of control over your 0:17:26.720 --> 0:17:30.240 trauma by fighting these cases, whether it be in court, 0:17:30.520 --> 0:17:35.280 whether it be in public. However, closure can only come 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:39.480 from within. And the problem with this case is number one. 0:17:40.480 --> 0:17:42.600 I don't know if they believe in justice at this 0:17:42.720 --> 0:17:47.760 point right. I was asking an interview last week about 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:52.680 hope and do they have hope that if these records 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.919 are released, that this will finally be it? And what 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.879 I explained is they have been holding on to hope 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:03.919 since the beginning, since they stop going to Jeffrey okay, 0:18:03.920 --> 0:18:07.440 and they will never give up hope. However, the one 0:18:07.600 --> 0:18:08.680 thing that has been. 0:18:08.600 --> 0:18:10.520 Lost is trust. 0:18:11.240 --> 0:18:17.639 Who can they trust now, law enforcement, the government, the 0:18:17.760 --> 0:18:18.560 legal system. 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:20.120 Who do they trust? 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:25.320 Because each element who has supposed to be there for them, 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.560 who is supposed to advocate for them, let them down. 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:34.199 So while there's hope, they're still clinging onto who do 0:18:34.280 --> 0:18:34.760 I trust? 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:35.760 Who do I talk to? 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:41.640 Who's going to help me heal and go through this journey? 0:18:42.760 --> 0:18:47.359 Randy, I'm curious. We keep hearing about more records being released, 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:50.360 more documents being released, whether or not there's a list, 0:18:50.680 --> 0:18:54.840 and it's exhausting because it's unclear, like I don't even 0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:58.000 know what's left out there to be released, what it 0:18:58.200 --> 0:19:01.920 is that maybe a record of something that could be 0:19:01.960 --> 0:19:05.360 a smoking gun. Have your clients explained to you and 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.520 about what that is that still needs to get out 0:19:09.600 --> 0:19:11.640 that hasn't been let out yet. 0:19:12.520 --> 0:19:18.080 They want transparency as to what happened since two what 0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:21.400 happened in two thousand and eight, and why wasn't anybody 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:25.920 held the accountable. Then that's the transparency that they want. 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:31.080 A list. Okay, what's a list? You know they want 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:33.920 to know that people who want to be held accountable. Yes, 0:19:34.560 --> 0:19:37.720 but also it's coming at a cost at this point. 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:39.360 You know, they're. 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.320 Dangling these these these files. Yes, we're going to release 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:46.280 the files. Well, we can't release the files. Well, you know, 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:49.320 it's been an ongoing battle of is it going to 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.399 happen or not? So I feel like this is just 0:19:52.440 --> 0:19:56.879 another way to make the survivors wait and have no 0:19:56.960 --> 0:20:01.480 control over the next step of this process, because are 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.480 they talking about it as Okay, this is going to happen, 0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.600 this is what I want? Is it because it's a 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:10.919 distraction for other people? They don't know anymore? 0:20:12.960 --> 0:20:17.160 You've mentioned in everybody lists lists, Epstein client List, client list. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:19.399 It was a big focus last week as well. At 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.560 least have made a lot of headlines when several of 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:24.920 the survivors said we're going to compile our own lists confidentially. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.560 Now on that matter, I'm asking you and all the 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:33.359 work you have done, have they certainly shared names with 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.840 you that most of us in the public would certainly 0:20:37.000 --> 0:20:40.359 recognize if we heard them. As far as other people 0:20:40.440 --> 0:20:42.320 out there who have victimized them. 0:20:43.880 --> 0:20:47.040 The individuals, the survivors that I have worked with from 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:51.240 two thousand and seven up until the present time, have 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:57.000 been abused by Jeffrey Epstein. The accountability that they want 0:20:57.520 --> 0:21:02.919 are from the adults that were in his mansion, his accountant, 0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.520 you know, the people who were helping this whole process, 0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:10.440 who knew and didn't do anything about it, the legal 0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:14.000 team from two thousand and eight. Those are the people 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.760 that they want to see accountability because they're the ones 0:21:17.800 --> 0:21:23.600 who were watching these young girls get abused day after day, 0:21:24.200 --> 0:21:27.879 over and over and over again. So that's the transparency 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:28.760 they're looking for. 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.560 That makes a lot of sense. And in terms of 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:34.520 the people who knew what was going on, and the 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:39.080 other person who many victims say also personally physically abuse 0:21:39.160 --> 0:21:42.760 them was Gallaine Maxwell. And to have what's been happening 0:21:42.840 --> 0:21:45.439 in the news, and certainly with her being moved to 0:21:45.560 --> 0:21:51.119 this gentler kinder prison camp in Texas without ever being 0:21:51.440 --> 0:21:53.560 told none of these victims were even given a say 0:21:53.680 --> 0:21:56.240 or heads up about what was happening. Can you talk 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.840 a little bit about how this back and forth and 0:22:00.880 --> 0:22:03.760 the possibility that Galeane Maxwell could even be pardoned by Trump, 0:22:04.040 --> 0:22:07.520 what that has been like, what your clients have talked 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.640 to you about, how that has impacted their mental health 0:22:10.640 --> 0:22:14.119 and what they want to see happen with her specifically. 0:22:13.920 --> 0:22:18.480 This has greatly impacted their mental health. When Glaine was 0:22:18.560 --> 0:22:22.639 sentenced to twenty years, they felt that, okay, we have 0:22:23.240 --> 0:22:27.000 some element of justice here, even if it's a little bit. 0:22:27.400 --> 0:22:30.440 It was what Glaine represented. You know, Jeffrey did not, 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:34.040 you know, he took his life. He took the easy 0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:35.840 way out. So all they had. 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:37.360 Left was Glaine. 0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:41.600 And when they started talking about, you know, more interviews 0:22:41.640 --> 0:22:49.840 with Gleane, when they moved her anger, frustration, betrayal. Again 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:54.320 we talk about the hope that was hope and now 0:22:54.400 --> 0:22:57.920 you can see how it's starting to slip through their fingers. 0:22:58.160 --> 0:23:03.200 Yet again, for what reason? Glaine is a liar? Glaine 0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:06.080 was charged with perjury. Why are we going to believe 0:23:06.480 --> 0:23:10.240 anything that this woman said? And if she had all 0:23:10.280 --> 0:23:13.600 of this information that they think she does, I would 0:23:13.680 --> 0:23:16.520 assume she would have brought that up during her trial. 0:23:18.520 --> 0:23:20.560 Why would she hold on to it until now? That 0:23:20.600 --> 0:23:25.760 doesn't make sense. So this is another tear injustice. When 0:23:25.760 --> 0:23:28.240 it comes to how the survivors feel. 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.760 Well, Randy, how can there be any Like you said, 0:23:31.760 --> 0:23:34.520 they don't trust the process, There is no hope. What 0:23:34.760 --> 0:23:38.520 possibly could the government do or anybody say. Even if 0:23:38.560 --> 0:23:40.960 they say, hey, here are the keys to the fileroom, 0:23:41.119 --> 0:23:44.760 knock yourselves out, even then there will be an assumption that, well, 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:46.919 they probably remove some stuff before they let us in, 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:50.119 Like can there anything, can anything? What are they asking 0:23:50.160 --> 0:23:54.560 for now that could possibly make them feel like it's transparent? 0:23:56.080 --> 0:24:00.200 Alex Acosta being held accountable is probably one of the 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:05.640 biggest hopes right now, and keep it. Putting Blaine where 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:08.640 she belongs in a maximum security prison. We're talking about 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.760 a sexual predator. The only two sexual predators I know 0:24:12.920 --> 0:24:17.680 that have had an easy experience in the legal system, Jeffrey. 0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:18.960 Epstein and Glaine Maxwell. 0:24:20.960 --> 0:24:24.800 So it's been really hard to come up with something 0:24:24.840 --> 0:24:26.359 to hold on to right now. 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:30.879 Besides, you know, it's a waiting game, Randy. 0:24:30.960 --> 0:24:34.240 As much as your clients, and I'm sure you too, 0:24:34.320 --> 0:24:40.640 given your intense just personal it has to be personal 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.320 relationship with these young women and seeing what they've been through. 0:24:46.320 --> 0:24:49.480 Can you even describe what it feels like to have 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:53.560 this be so politicized, you know, it seems as though 0:24:53.640 --> 0:24:56.200 I can only imagine it doesn't feel like it's for 0:24:56.240 --> 0:24:59.560 the victims. It's about the victims. It truly is about 0:24:59.560 --> 0:25:03.440 making a political name for yourself, about saving some sort 0:25:03.480 --> 0:25:09.560 of political face in a mob that wants answers. It's 0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:12.639 almost as if they're using this for political gain, or 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.479 at least deflecting so that they aren't politically injured in 0:25:15.520 --> 0:25:17.720 any way. But it is not about the thig that 0:25:17.720 --> 0:25:19.840