Speaker 1: Hey, they're folks, and welcome to this latest episode of
Speaker 1: Amy and TJ Presents Today. It's about the Epstein survivors
Speaker 1: who robes last week, just last week, we saw that
Speaker 1: press conference, powerful press conference outside the US Capitol, with
Speaker 1: many victims stepping forward wanting more Epstein files to be released.
Speaker 1: And it's wild to think that these are victims who
Speaker 1: suffered in some cases decades ago, who are still healing
Speaker 1: after decades, but are still as well being victimized. They say,
Speaker 1: by what we're seeing in the press.
Speaker 2: That's right, and there is a reason why we're just
Speaker 2: now seeing their faces and their names. They have been anonymous,
Speaker 2: they were Jane Doe, number one, two, three, whatever, because
Speaker 2: of all of the reasons why you tend to protect
Speaker 2: obviously victims of sexual abuse, sexual assault, but also there's
Speaker 2: just so much fear surrounding this case, so much talk
Speaker 2: about powerful men and powerful people being able to exact revenge,
Speaker 2: and just honestly, for decades, not being believed, not being heard,
Speaker 2: not being listened to. So it's a huge, huge deal
Speaker 2: that these women are finally stepping forward and putting their
Speaker 2: names and faces out there. And that's scary and it
Speaker 2: can have unintended consequences.
Speaker 1: And look, we've talked for years, it's hard to even
Speaker 1: imagine the trauma, the healing psychologically that is necessary, I
Speaker 1: guess to continue on with life. Unfortunately, Virginia Juphrey, of
Speaker 1: course we know as a young lady who took her
Speaker 1: own life just this year, who was very outspoken Epstein survivor.
Speaker 1: But we wondered, like, how are they getting help? Who
Speaker 1: is helping these women sometimes from their teen years, Who
Speaker 1: has helping them and who is continuing to help them
Speaker 1: along their path? And that is why we have Randy
Speaker 1: Cogan with us today, a license psychotherapist who has worked
Speaker 1: with a number of these victims for decades now and
Speaker 1: continues to do so. Randy, did we thank you for
Speaker 1: being here? But do we get that right? That what
Speaker 1: happens if you have been doing all of this healing
Speaker 1: for all these many years and even decades, and then boom,
Speaker 1: all of this press coverage, all of this back and
Speaker 1: forth is happening. Are you being victimized? Does it really
Speaker 1: open up a whole new avenue of healing that is necessary?
Speaker 3: Yes, it does, And throughout the years from two thousand
Speaker 3: and eight, from before two thousand and eight, healing has
Speaker 3: been disrupted over and over and over again. You know,
Speaker 3: first it was reported and Epstein was arrested. Okay, now
Speaker 3: we're moving towards justice. There's a chance here that they
Speaker 3: can feel some sort of justice. Then the sweetheart deal
Speaker 3: came about, and the legal team, the prosecutor alex Acosta,
Speaker 3: nobody informed the victims of this sweetheart deal. So in
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, the survivors
Speaker 3: that I was treating, I was the individual who had
Speaker 3: to let them know about the sweetheart deal, and it
Speaker 3: was quite devastating because what came out of that sweetheart
Speaker 3: deal is they were looked at a child prostitutes because
Speaker 3: he was charged with the solicitation of child prostitution. So
Speaker 3: the revictimization started right out of the gate when he
Speaker 3: was initially arrested, and it continued throughout the past eighteen years,
Speaker 3: up and down, on and off. So there hasn't been
Speaker 3: a steady stream of that healing process that we would
Speaker 3: like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited,
Speaker 3: and groomed as young teens.
Speaker 2: Rennie, can I ask you how you first got involved
Speaker 2: with some of these Epstein victims. How were you first
Speaker 2: introduced and how did you begin to work with them?
Speaker 3: I starting in two thousand and four, I was working
Speaker 3: at Palm Beach County Victim Services. And at Victim Services
Speaker 3: we worked in the courthouse and we worked with victims
Speaker 3: of violent crimes in Palm Beach County, so we worked
Speaker 3: very closely with law enforcement. We worked very closely with
Speaker 3: the legal system as well as the FBI. When Epstein
Speaker 3: was initially arrested and the FBI began the investigation, the
Speaker 3: victim specialists through the FBI referred the victims to Victim Services.
Speaker 3: At that time, the team at Victim Services felt that
Speaker 3: it would be in all of their best interests. I
Speaker 3: was the main therapist who worked with the victims because
Speaker 3: everybody's story was similar. The trauma, trauma was the victimization
Speaker 3: was similar. I can't say the trauma was, but the
Speaker 3: stimization was similar. So that's how I started getting involved
Speaker 3: and treating the survivors. And then as more individuals came about,
Speaker 3: when attorneys started getting involved and started picking up clients,
Speaker 3: they too began referring their victims to me as well.
Speaker 1: How many Initially, I want to ask, were you working
Speaker 1: with And when did you know this was I guess
Speaker 1: you probably couldn't imagine it was going to become what
Speaker 1: it now has become, how big of a story. But
Speaker 1: when did you first start to start getting a little
Speaker 1: indication of this thing was going to be much bigger
Speaker 1: than maybe a case you'd ever worked on before.
Speaker 3: Well, at the time, I probably, if I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 3: I was treating about seven victims at the time, seven girls,
Speaker 3: seven teenagers. They were teenagers at the time. I thought
Speaker 3: it was strange that I was deposed pretty quickly Jeffrey's attorneys.
Speaker 3: I thought that was a red flag that they were
Speaker 3: deposing me so early as well that I just started
Speaker 3: seeing them when I heard about the sweetheart deal, and
Speaker 3: that myself, Brad Edwards and other attorneys had to inform
Speaker 3: their clients. That was a red flag for me. When
Speaker 3: I saw the charge of prostitution, I knew that this
Speaker 3: is a whole different ballgame now, because they just kept
Speaker 3: revictimizing and accusing and accusing, and the only individual who
Speaker 3: was seeking support at that time was Epstein. So it
Speaker 3: was a huge red flag for me right at the
Speaker 3: beginning when they made the sweetheart deal.
Speaker 2: You know, Randy. It's so it's mind blowing to know
Speaker 2: that here in twenty twenty five, this is the story
Speaker 2: that it is. And these women now who were girls then,
Speaker 2: are just now feeling strong enough and safe enough perhaps
Speaker 2: even to come forward and to hear them have to
Speaker 2: explain the guilt and the shame. We've heard this in
Speaker 2: other cases, but this one is significant because people keep asking, well,
Speaker 2: why would you keep going back, Why would you fly
Speaker 2: on a private plane, Why would you go to the
Speaker 2: island with him? Why would you not have run for
Speaker 2: the hills or run to a police station. Once that
Speaker 2: massage became more than a massage, what do you say
Speaker 2: to those people who have those types of questions about
Speaker 2: these young.
Speaker 3: Girls, Well, the first thing they need to understand is
Speaker 3: what it needs to be groomed by an individual. Okay,
Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein used his caring relationship, and of course I
Speaker 3: use that term loosely carrying relationship with each one of
Speaker 3: his victims as his weapon. So right from the start,
Speaker 3: he got to know each of them, He got to
Speaker 3: know their families, he got to know about their dreams,
Speaker 3: their goals, and he use that to manipulate them, to
Speaker 3: exploit them. The way that he saw fit and that
Speaker 3: made him feel good. So once you develop that relationship,
Speaker 3: there's something that's called deceptive trust development, and that was
Speaker 3: something that Epstein banked on, was that deceptive trust that
Speaker 3: he built in each of these girls. Now, remember we're
Speaker 3: talking about the ages of thirteen to sixteen, So what
Speaker 3: do we expect from a thirteen year old girl a
Speaker 3: sixteen year old girl? Should we expect them to understand
Speaker 3: when they're being groomed and manipulated? Many girls felt that
Speaker 3: they really didn't have a choice because they didn't want
Speaker 3: to disappoint him. He was such a nice, caring man.
Speaker 3: He assured some of them he would help families with immigration,
Speaker 3: would help dreams come true, help them become models. He
Speaker 3: wrote reference letters to colleges for some of these girls.
Speaker 3: They didn't want to hurt him. They didn't want to
Speaker 3: betray him because they had this deceptive relationship that Jeffrey
Speaker 3: built with each of them. So it's not easy along
Speaker 3: their lines with that. Grooming is a form of mental abuse.
Speaker 3: Rooming makes the victim believe that they are part of
Speaker 3: the abuse themselves, and that's where that guilt and shame
Speaker 3: comes from.
Speaker 4: What was my role, am I going to get in
Speaker 4: trouble too.
Speaker 3: Many victims in two thousand and eight were waiting to
Speaker 3: get arrested because they believed that they was just as
Speaker 3: much to blame as Jeffrey because of that manipulation that
Speaker 3: I'm speaking.
Speaker 1: Of, Randy, was that job one for you? Almost when
Speaker 1: these victims first came in, you had to almost break
Speaker 1: down and convince them that they were not the problem.
Speaker 1: That they had to be convinced to I the word convinced,
Speaker 1: but you explain it, it make it sound almost they
Speaker 1: had to be convinced that they were actually victims. Was
Speaker 1: that a common theme in these young women when you
Speaker 1: first started talking to them, is that was like that
Speaker 1: was the first work you had to do.
Speaker 3: That is the theme that has been ongoing for the
Speaker 3: past twenty years because they still second guess at times.
Speaker 3: There are some girls that want to speak but are
Speaker 3: afraid to speak. Even when when Epstein died, there was
Speaker 3: the there were these conflictual feelings because what about all
Speaker 3: the times that he was good to them?
Speaker 4: What about all the times.
Speaker 3: That when some of them needed money they were in
Speaker 3: a pinch.
Speaker 4: Jeffrey would show up for them.
Speaker 3: So there there's a lot of inner conflict that goes
Speaker 3: on with grooming and manipulation and mental abuse. So yes,
Speaker 3: that is an ongoing feat that we continue to work on.
Speaker 2: Randy, you said you started out with around seven young
Speaker 2: women who you were counseling at the beginning of this
Speaker 2: in early two thousands. I don't even personally have an
Speaker 2: idea of the scope of the number of women and
Speaker 2: young women were talking about. Has that number grown in
Speaker 2: terms of your circle of clients, and do you even
Speaker 2: have a concept of how many young women were talking
Speaker 2: about who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein.
Speaker 3: We're talking hundreds hundreds of women, so many still will
Speaker 3: not speak about it, so many are still suppressing between
Speaker 3: two thousand and eight and twenty and nineteen, after that
Speaker 3: that deal came out. Obviously, the victims were just distraught.
Speaker 3: They felt betrayed, they felt devalued, they felt like they
Speaker 3: didn't belong, They felt like the predators were more important
Speaker 3: than the victims. So a number of them hid for
Speaker 3: many years. They wanted to put everything behind them, They
Speaker 3: wanted to completely just completely wipe this from their memory
Speaker 3: and from their experiences. Well, in the psychological world, we
Speaker 3: know that when we suppress something, it stays inside. It
Speaker 3: doesn't just go away, right, so that will build. In
Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, when the FBI started contacting the survivors, going
Speaker 3: to their homes, going to their work, this was like, Okay,
Speaker 3: there's nowhere for me to escape anymore. So everything that
Speaker 3: they were attempting to suppress, everything came back, not only
Speaker 3: the trauma and the experiences with Jeffrey, but also the
Speaker 3: guilt and shame that they've been suppressing as well. So
Speaker 3: it was starting back again. A number of girls that
Speaker 3: I saw in two thousand and eight were able to
Speaker 3: find me again in twenty and nineteen, so I was
Speaker 3: able to continue or go back to treating them again,
Speaker 3: and I'm still doing so. But yes, a large number
Speaker 3: of survivors came wanting treatment and wanting to get help,
Speaker 3: wanting to understand what happened over these past, you know,
Speaker 3: so many years. Some girls didn't even know that he
Speaker 3: was released after the Sweetheart Deal. When they were approaching
Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, they were shocked to hear that he
Speaker 3: was out of prison the entire time, so that skyrocketed
Speaker 3: their fear.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in twenty fifteen, I spoke with then
Speaker 2: Virginia Roberts, Virginia Jeffrey and she was in hiding. She
Speaker 2: went to Australia. She talked about this harrowing decision with
Speaker 2: her then husband to get out and to hide in
Speaker 2: Australia as far away as she could, or she thought
Speaker 2: from Jeffrey Epstein and to see how her life ended
Speaker 2: just a few months ago is beyond heartbreaking. I am
Speaker 2: curious just in terms of the mental health struggles that
Speaker 2: these young women are facing. People kind of say, oh,
Speaker 2: you know they might poopoo. You see what happened to Virginia,
Speaker 2: And I know this is what you're fighting for and
Speaker 2: fighting against, certainly to not have that be the fate
Speaker 2: of so many of these other young girls. But how
Speaker 2: serious is their mental health at this point? How serious
Speaker 2: are their conditions? And are you concerned that? I mean,
Speaker 2: it rises to that level where, yes, for young women
Speaker 2: and now grown women are they don't want to live
Speaker 2: with what they've experienced.
Speaker 3: Virginia Kufre's death hit many survivors in a way that
Speaker 3: they did not expect. It was devastating, It was tragic
Speaker 3: to them, and many questions from them were is this
Speaker 3: my path? Is this something do I need to start
Speaker 3: looking over my shoulder, Is this what's going to happen?
Speaker 3: And also on the other side of it, we need
Speaker 3: to continue Virginia's legacy. Virginia spoke up for so many
Speaker 3: of the survivors when nobody else had a voice, and
Speaker 3: many girls don't want that legacy to end with Virginia.
Speaker 3: They want her voice to continue. So there's a lot
Speaker 3: of inner conflict going on with many. They want to
Speaker 3: use their voice. They're angry, They're angry about what's going
Speaker 3: on right now. They feel again as if the government
Speaker 3: is letting them down. But on the other side of
Speaker 3: that too, what happens if I do speak up? What
Speaker 3: are the consequences? And throughout the years some who have
Speaker 3: spoken over the past years have the public has not
Speaker 3: been very nice and that's been a trauma in and
Speaker 3: of it themselves, not believing them they knew what they
Speaker 3: were doing. They just were doing it for the money.
Speaker 3: Oh did the money run out? Is that why they
Speaker 3: want to talk now? People don't understand what process they
Speaker 3: went through and that they're still going through. I've been
Speaker 3: doing this for forty years. I have never seen a
Speaker 3: case go on as long as this.
Speaker 1: Where does the closure in those cases, Does it come
Speaker 1: only after justice through our justice system or what? Or
Speaker 1: is it time? What have you found in your forty
Speaker 1: years is the thing. I'm sure it can be different
Speaker 1: for everybody that eventually or certainly is necessary to be
Speaker 1: able to turn that corner, to have to be on
Speaker 1: the right path to healing.
Speaker 4: Well, it's hard.
Speaker 3: In any cases that I have worked with that have
Speaker 3: gone to trial, which have been hundreds of them. Justice
Speaker 3: doesn't come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn't come from
Speaker 3: a twenty year to life sentence, okay, Because once that
Speaker 3: once the sentence, once they've given the sentence, once they've
Speaker 3: gone to prison, what do the victims have left now
Speaker 3: to deal with?
Speaker 4: Right? They have the trauma left to deal with.
Speaker 3: Because before, when you're going through court, when you know,
Speaker 3: when you're meeting with your attorneys, when you're going through
Speaker 3: depositions and whatnot, that's a good distraction. You don't feel
Speaker 3: like it's a good distraction, but it's a distraction that's
Speaker 3: your control. You have some element of control over your
Speaker 3: trauma by fighting these cases, whether it be in court,
Speaker 3: whether it be in public. However, closure can only come
Speaker 3: from within. And the problem with this case is number one.
Speaker 3: I don't know if they believe in justice at this
Speaker 3: point right. I was asking an interview last week about
Speaker 3: hope and do they have hope that if these records
Speaker 3: are released, that this will finally be it? And what
Speaker 3: I explained is they have been holding on to hope
Speaker 3: since the beginning, since they stop going to Jeffrey okay,
Speaker 3: and they will never give up hope. However, the one
Speaker 3: thing that has been.
Speaker 4: Lost is trust.
Speaker 3: Who can they trust now, law enforcement, the government, the
Speaker 3: legal system.
Speaker 4: Who do they trust?
Speaker 3: Because each element who has supposed to be there for them,
Speaker 3: who is supposed to advocate for them, let them down.
Speaker 3: So while there's hope, they're still clinging onto who do
Speaker 3: I trust?
Speaker 4: Who do I talk to?
Speaker 3: Who's going to help me heal and go through this journey?
Speaker 2: Randy, I'm curious. We keep hearing about more records being released,
Speaker 2: more documents being released, whether or not there's a list,
Speaker 2: and it's exhausting because it's unclear, like I don't even
Speaker 2: know what's left out there to be released, what it
Speaker 2: is that maybe a record of something that could be
Speaker 2: a smoking gun. Have your clients explained to you and
Speaker 2: about what that is that still needs to get out
Speaker 2: that hasn't been let out yet.
Speaker 3: They want transparency as to what happened since two what
Speaker 3: happened in two thousand and eight, and why wasn't anybody
Speaker 3: held the accountable. Then that's the transparency that they want.
Speaker 3: A list. Okay, what's a list? You know they want
Speaker 3: to know that people who want to be held accountable. Yes,
Speaker 3: but also it's coming at a cost at this point.
Speaker 4: You know, they're.
Speaker 3: Dangling these these these files. Yes, we're going to release
Speaker 3: the files. Well, we can't release the files. Well, you know,
Speaker 3: it's been an ongoing battle of is it going to
Speaker 3: happen or not? So I feel like this is just
Speaker 3: another way to make the survivors wait and have no
Speaker 3: control over the next step of this process, because are
Speaker 3: they talking about it as Okay, this is going to happen,
Speaker 3: this is what I want? Is it because it's a
Speaker 3: distraction for other people? They don't know anymore?
Speaker 1: You've mentioned in everybody lists lists, Epstein client List, client list.
Speaker 1: It was a big focus last week as well. At
Speaker 1: least have made a lot of headlines when several of
Speaker 1: the survivors said we're going to compile our own lists confidentially.
Speaker 1: Now on that matter, I'm asking you and all the
Speaker 1: work you have done, have they certainly shared names with
Speaker 1: you that most of us in the public would certainly
Speaker 1: recognize if we heard them. As far as other people
Speaker 1: out there who have victimized them.
Speaker 3: The individuals, the survivors that I have worked with from
Speaker 3: two thousand and seven up until the present time, have
Speaker 3: been abused by Jeffrey Epstein. The accountability that they want
Speaker 3: are from the adults that were in his mansion, his accountant,
Speaker 3: you know, the people who were helping this whole process,
Speaker 3: who knew and didn't do anything about it, the legal
Speaker 3: team from two thousand and eight. Those are the people
Speaker 3: that they want to see accountability because they're the ones
Speaker 3: who were watching these young girls get abused day after day,
Speaker 3: over and over and over again. So that's the transparency
Speaker 3: they're looking for.
Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. And in terms of
Speaker 2: the people who knew what was going on, and the
Speaker 2: other person who many victims say also personally physically abuse
Speaker 2: them was Gallaine Maxwell. And to have what's been happening
Speaker 2: in the news, and certainly with her being moved to
Speaker 2: this gentler kinder prison camp in Texas without ever being
Speaker 2: told none of these victims were even given a say
Speaker 2: or heads up about what was happening. Can you talk
Speaker 2: a little bit about how this back and forth and
Speaker 2: the possibility that Galeane Maxwell could even be pardoned by Trump,
Speaker 2: what that has been like, what your clients have talked
Speaker 2: to you about, how that has impacted their mental health
Speaker 2: and what they want to see happen with her specifically.
Speaker 3: This has greatly impacted their mental health. When Glaine was
Speaker 3: sentenced to twenty years, they felt that, okay, we have
Speaker 3: some element of justice here, even if it's a little bit.
Speaker 3: It was what Glaine represented. You know, Jeffrey did not,
Speaker 3: you know, he took his life. He took the easy
Speaker 3: way out. So all they had.
Speaker 4: Left was Glaine.
Speaker 3: And when they started talking about, you know, more interviews
Speaker 3: with Gleane, when they moved her anger, frustration, betrayal. Again
Speaker 3: we talk about the hope that was hope and now
Speaker 3: you can see how it's starting to slip through their fingers.
Speaker 3: Yet again, for what reason? Glaine is a liar? Glaine
Speaker 3: was charged with perjury. Why are we going to believe
Speaker 3: anything that this woman said? And if she had all
Speaker 3: of this information that they think she does, I would
Speaker 3: assume she would have brought that up during her trial.
Speaker 3: Why would she hold on to it until now? That
Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. So this is another tear injustice. When
Speaker 3: it comes to how the survivors feel.
Speaker 1: Well, Randy, how can there be any Like you said,
Speaker 1: they don't trust the process, There is no hope. What
Speaker 1: possibly could the government do or anybody say. Even if
Speaker 1: they say, hey, here are the keys to the fileroom,
Speaker 1: knock yourselves out, even then there will be an assumption that, well,
Speaker 1: they probably remove some stuff before they let us in,
Speaker 1: Like can there anything, can anything? What are they asking
Speaker 1: for now that could possibly make them feel like it's transparent?
Speaker 3: Alex Acosta being held accountable is probably one of the
Speaker 3: biggest hopes right now, and keep it. Putting Blaine where
Speaker 3: she belongs in a maximum security prison. We're talking about
Speaker 3: a sexual predator. The only two sexual predators I know
Speaker 3: that have had an easy experience in the legal system, Jeffrey.
Speaker 4: Epstein and Glaine Maxwell.
Speaker 3: So it's been really hard to come up with something
Speaker 3: to hold on to right now.
Speaker 4: Besides, you know, it's a waiting game, Randy.
Speaker 2: As much as your clients, and I'm sure you too,
Speaker 2: given your intense just personal it has to be personal
Speaker 2: relationship with these young women and seeing what they've been through.
Speaker 2: Can you even describe what it feels like to have
Speaker 2: this be so politicized, you know, it seems as though
Speaker 2: I can only imagine it doesn't feel like it's for
Speaker 2: the victims. It's about the victims. It truly is about
Speaker 2: making a political name for yourself, about saving some sort
Speaker 2: of political face in a mob that wants answers. It's
Speaker 2: almost as if they're using this for political gain, or
Speaker 2: at least deflecting so that they aren't politically injured in
Speaker 2: any way. But it is not about the thig that
Speaker 2: it hasn't seemed like it it's been at all from
Speaker 2: the beginning.
Speaker 3: That's correct, That's correct, and it is devastating to so
Speaker 3: many of them that our president is the one calling
Speaker 3: it a hoax. The president. You know, there were planes
Speaker 3: that were flying over the girls when they were speaking
Speaker 3: at the rally and the press conference. That was another
Speaker 3: hit for them. You know, they're devastated to see that
Speaker 3: here they are going to Washington and taking this risk
Speaker 3: to speak out and.
Speaker 4: They're actors in a hoax.
Speaker 3: So that was just it was very hurtful and especially
Speaker 3: individuals who had voted for the president because they thought
Speaker 3: that he would release these files and it would be done.
Speaker 4: And was that a form of grooming you know?
Speaker 3: One questions if that was to get voters. I don't know,
Speaker 3: but it's starting to feel that way from them right now.
Speaker 1: If there were we kind of been hitting on this,
Speaker 1: you've hinted, but if there were a list of demands
Speaker 1: right now that the victims you've worked with, or just
Speaker 1: generally speaking of the president of the government, what would
Speaker 1: those demands right now look like?
Speaker 3: Old people accountable, who knew about it, who didn't do
Speaker 3: something about it, or who fostered it. That is what's
Speaker 3: important right now, and then put it to rest. These
Speaker 3: women need to heal in peace, and it's constantly disrupted,
Speaker 3: you know. And some women came forward to speak for
Speaker 3: the first time because that's how angry they are. That's
Speaker 3: how angry they are. How many conspiracy theories are going
Speaker 3: on out there about Epstein and Glee Maxwell, how many
Speaker 3: AI stories, how many lies you know, and they're watching
Speaker 3: it and it's like, these are our lives, Like this
Speaker 3: is my life, and here you are making up all
Speaker 3: of these stories about my life. So some got to
Speaker 3: the point where enough is enough. But this is how,
Speaker 3: this is how, this is what it took instead of
Speaker 3: part of their therapeutic healing process that had to be
Speaker 3: we need to do it now because they're not telling
Speaker 3: the truth. I don't think that's very fair to survivors now.
Speaker 2: And some of the survivors are actually asking for a
Speaker 2: meeting with President Trump. Are some of you clients a
Speaker 2: part of that group? And what do they want to
Speaker 2: hear from him? And what are they hoping to gain
Speaker 2: from him given all of the I don't know how
Speaker 2: they feel about the headlines, and we've known this for
Speaker 2: a long time, the connections between Trump and Epstein, and
Speaker 2: of course they had a falling out at a certain point,
Speaker 2: but even some of the pictures, some of the comments
Speaker 2: he's made about Virginia just give me a sense of
Speaker 2: where they stand on that meeting and what they're hoping
Speaker 2: to achieve.
Speaker 3: I mean, their goal is to have Trump understand that
Speaker 3: what happened to them is real. I mean, let's start
Speaker 3: with the basics here. You know, first belief, because there
Speaker 3: seems to be disbelief and it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to
Speaker 3: think that the leader of this country is focused more
Speaker 3: on protecting the individuals in his party rather than all
Speaker 3: of these women that continue to suffer. Some have never
Speaker 3: uttered the words of their story up until today. Still
Speaker 3: there are women coming out each and every day now
Speaker 3: reaching out to me after all of this is going on,
Speaker 3: wanting to support other survivors. They call themselves their soul sisters.
Speaker 3: They want to be there and support their soul sisters
Speaker 3: because they feel that the people who should be supporting
Speaker 3: them aren't. So it's a scary idea of having that meeting.
Speaker 3: As a therapist, seeing what they're going through. I would
Speaker 3: be a little nervous with that meeting because of the
Speaker 3: lack of compassion and empathy that they have been welcomed,
Speaker 3: especially in Washington.
Speaker 1: Well, you said nervous. It almost sounds like as someone
Speaker 1: who has treated these victims, you almost sound like you
Speaker 1: would lean against them sitting in a room and talking
Speaker 1: to President Trump.
Speaker 3: I would be concerned. I would absolutely be concerned about it.
Speaker 3: I would make sure I would be somewhere close by.
Speaker 3: I would be because unfortunately I don't trust. I don't
Speaker 3: trust that there's going to be that compassion because where
Speaker 3: has it been?
Speaker 2: And Randy, it's interesting We talked a little bit before
Speaker 2: we came on the podcast about where you were last
Speaker 2: week when so many of those victims did decide to
Speaker 2: put their names and faces and tell part of their
Speaker 2: story to the world. You said you stayed back in
Speaker 2: Florida because why.
Speaker 3: I stayed back in Florida Because I wanted them to
Speaker 3: have a home base with me. What I mean by
Speaker 3: that is they can reach out to me at any time.
Speaker 3: So I was in contact with many of the survivors
Speaker 3: throughout the past days because it was extremely overwhelming, it
Speaker 3: was mentally exhausting. So I made sure that I was
Speaker 3: here for them as that support, as that anchor, while
Speaker 3: working with the other their survivors who were having a
Speaker 3: hard time with you know, the headlines of after they
Speaker 3: spoke the comments. So there was so much going on,
Speaker 3: you know, with the victims that didn't speak and the
Speaker 3: ones that did. So I wanted to make sure that
Speaker 3: I was there for each of them and all of
Speaker 3: them at that time. And I felt that being in Washington,
Speaker 3: I would be pulled into many directions and that wouldn't
Speaker 3: be a good thing for them at the time.
Speaker 1: Ernie, can you tell us one as journalists, can you
Speaker 1: tell all of us as citizens, what we are getting wrong?
Speaker 1: What would you absolutely like us to be doing better
Speaker 1: in how we're having conversations publicly about Epstein about the victims,
Speaker 1: to be more mindful of those survivors and what they're
Speaker 1: going through. I know we cover it, and sometimes we
Speaker 1: covered we get caught up in a headline and you
Speaker 1: don't remember the humanity and there's a victim in the
Speaker 1: middle of it. But I'm just curious to you seeing
Speaker 1: cover and whether it's social media and whether it's CNN,
Speaker 1: what do you see that we continue to get wrong
Speaker 1: in our conversation about sexual abuse victims, in particular this
Speaker 1: Epstein case.
Speaker 3: People think that when we'll speak with young girls, when
Speaker 3: young girls are groomed and sexually exploited, that they can
Speaker 3: come and go, that they knew what they were doing,
Speaker 3: they knew how to get out of it, And that
Speaker 3: is not the way it works. Grooming is a very
Speaker 3: dangerous weapon because there's no force involved.
Speaker 4: So because they are no.
Speaker 3: Force and people don't understand what grooming is, they just
Speaker 3: assume that, well, you can just get out, and it's
Speaker 3: a form of brainwashing. Right, So how are young girls
Speaker 3: supposed to know that Jeffrey was brainwashing them, manipulating them
Speaker 3: to get his needs met rather than well, he was
Speaker 3: building this relationship because he cared. So it really starts there.
Speaker 3: They did not know what they were getting into, and
Speaker 3: just because they went back does not mean they were
Speaker 3: looking to be abused, that it was all about the money.
Speaker 3: It was about the weapon, which was his relationship with
Speaker 3: each girl.
Speaker 4: That's the first thing. The second thing.
Speaker 3: These are human beings that have been going through this
Speaker 3: from the ages of thirteen through their late thirties. Believe them,
Speaker 3: this happened. Everything that you hear about what Epstein did.
Speaker 4: And more is true.
Speaker 3: And it is not easy for them to open social media.
Speaker 3: I mean, you know, in this day and age, what
Speaker 3: our phones are our lives, right. We don't just turn
Speaker 3: on the TV anymore. We wake up to our phone,
Speaker 3: We go to sleep to our phone. We go to
Speaker 3: the bathroom with our phone. We drive, God forbid, we
Speaker 3: drive with our phones, I mean our phone our concert
Speaker 3: We like to go to comedy shows, don't we.
Speaker 4: We'd like to go to.
Speaker 3: Concerts everywhere that they go, everywhere that they look, they
Speaker 3: are reminded of Jeffrey Epstein. Saturday Night Live skits stand
Speaker 3: up comedians, different TV shows, on top of the media,
Speaker 3: making up stories, saying horrible things about them, judging them,
Speaker 3: judging how they heal, judging what they look like, judging
Speaker 3: that they received. You know, settlements. Settlements did not heal
Speaker 3: any wounds. Let's be clear. Settlements help them get the
Speaker 3: treatment that they so desperately need and deserve.
Speaker 2: Wow, it's been said, and I'm just curious with your perspective.
Speaker 2: You said you've been doing this for forty years. I
Speaker 2: can't imagine when you heard one story after another and
Speaker 2: they each sounded so similar and yet sadly, so effective
Speaker 2: and so powerful. Would you say that Jeffrey Epstein was
Speaker 2: perhaps the most prolific pedophile in this country's history. I mean,
Speaker 2: have you ever seen anything like.
Speaker 3: This, not like this now, and not with such ongoing exposure.
Speaker 3: Even after death. Jeffrey Epstein has been sensationalized, Jeffrey Epstein
Speaker 3: has been celebritized in many ways, and it is just
Speaker 3: tragic that this is how we treat predators and this
Speaker 3: is how we treat survivors.
Speaker 4: It's tragic.
Speaker 2: Well, Randy, I'm sure you hopefully just feel the impact
Speaker 2: you're having on these women and these young women who
Speaker 2: are counting on you to get through this and this
Speaker 2: will be with them forever. But thank goodness, you're in
Speaker 2: their lives, and we certainly appreciate you giving us some
Speaker 2: perspective as to what they're going through. And the tragedy
Speaker 2: isn't it's so deeply personal for each one of these girls.
Speaker 2: It isn't just a headline. And we know that intellectually,
Speaker 2: but to hear you actually talk about what these girls
Speaker 2: and now women are living with and living through with
Speaker 2: all of these continuing headlines, we just appreciate your insight
Speaker 2: and your perspective and the work that you do each
Speaker 2: and every day. That can't be easy to not take
Speaker 2: that home with you.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
Speaker 3: It's so important that we have these conversations, so important.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 3: Thank you for supporting and having the compassion that they
Speaker 3: so desperately need.
Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Randy. We hope you have a wonderful
Speaker 2: day and we appreciate your time. As always. We hope
Speaker 2: you'll check back in with us, and we hope they'll
Speaker 2: be better news, perhaps in the weeks and maybe even
Speaker 2: years to come.
Speaker 4: That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much.