1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:05,320 Speaker 1: Hey, they're folks, and welcome to this latest episode of 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,840 Speaker 1: Amy and TJ Presents Today. It's about the Epstein survivors 3 00:00:09,880 --> 00:00:12,920 Speaker 1: who robes last week, just last week, we saw that 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,959 Speaker 1: press conference, powerful press conference outside the US Capitol, with 5 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: many victims stepping forward wanting more Epstein files to be released. 6 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 1: And it's wild to think that these are victims who 7 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:28,640 Speaker 1: suffered in some cases decades ago, who are still healing 8 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:34,120 Speaker 1: after decades, but are still as well being victimized. They say, 9 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: by what we're seeing in the press. 10 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 2: That's right, and there is a reason why we're just 11 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 2: now seeing their faces and their names. They have been anonymous, 12 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:48,919 Speaker 2: they were Jane Doe, number one, two, three, whatever, because 13 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,839 Speaker 2: of all of the reasons why you tend to protect 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 2: obviously victims of sexual abuse, sexual assault, but also there's 15 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: just so much fear surrounding this case, so much talk 16 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 2: about powerful men and powerful people being able to exact revenge, 17 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 2: and just honestly, for decades, not being believed, not being heard, 18 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: not being listened to. So it's a huge, huge deal 19 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 2: that these women are finally stepping forward and putting their 20 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 2: names and faces out there. And that's scary and it 21 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 2: can have unintended consequences. 22 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: And look, we've talked for years, it's hard to even 23 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: imagine the trauma, the healing psychologically that is necessary, I 24 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: guess to continue on with life. Unfortunately, Virginia Juphrey, of 25 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,319 Speaker 1: course we know as a young lady who took her 26 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,200 Speaker 1: own life just this year, who was very outspoken Epstein survivor. 27 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:46,440 Speaker 1: But we wondered, like, how are they getting help? Who 28 00:01:46,480 --> 00:01:51,520 Speaker 1: is helping these women sometimes from their teen years, Who 29 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: has helping them and who is continuing to help them 30 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,919 Speaker 1: along their path? And that is why we have Randy 31 00:01:56,960 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: Cogan with us today, a license psychotherapist who has worked 32 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: with a number of these victims for decades now and 33 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 1: continues to do so. Randy, did we thank you for 34 00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:11,880 Speaker 1: being here? But do we get that right? That what 35 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,720 Speaker 1: happens if you have been doing all of this healing 36 00:02:14,919 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 1: for all these many years and even decades, and then boom, 37 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: all of this press coverage, all of this back and 38 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 1: forth is happening. Are you being victimized? Does it really 39 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 1: open up a whole new avenue of healing that is necessary? 40 00:02:31,040 --> 00:02:35,120 Speaker 3: Yes, it does, And throughout the years from two thousand 41 00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:38,799 Speaker 3: and eight, from before two thousand and eight, healing has 42 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 3: been disrupted over and over and over again. You know, 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 3: first it was reported and Epstein was arrested. Okay, now 44 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,840 Speaker 3: we're moving towards justice. There's a chance here that they 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 3: can feel some sort of justice. Then the sweetheart deal 46 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:59,440 Speaker 3: came about, and the legal team, the prosecutor alex Acosta, 47 00:03:00,120 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 3: nobody informed the victims of this sweetheart deal. So in 48 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 3: two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, the survivors 49 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,919 Speaker 3: that I was treating, I was the individual who had 50 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 3: to let them know about the sweetheart deal, and it 51 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: was quite devastating because what came out of that sweetheart 52 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: deal is they were looked at a child prostitutes because 53 00:03:25,120 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: he was charged with the solicitation of child prostitution. So 54 00:03:28,680 --> 00:03:32,000 Speaker 3: the revictimization started right out of the gate when he 55 00:03:32,040 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 3: was initially arrested, and it continued throughout the past eighteen years, 56 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,000 Speaker 3: up and down, on and off. So there hasn't been 57 00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 3: a steady stream of that healing process that we would 58 00:03:46,280 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: like to see with individuals who have been trafficked, sexually exploited, 59 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 3: and groomed as young teens. 60 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: Rennie, can I ask you how you first got involved 61 00:03:59,480 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 2: with some of these Epstein victims. How were you first 62 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:04,440 Speaker 2: introduced and how did you begin to work with them? 63 00:04:05,440 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 3: I starting in two thousand and four, I was working 64 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 3: at Palm Beach County Victim Services. And at Victim Services 65 00:04:13,480 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 3: we worked in the courthouse and we worked with victims 66 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 3: of violent crimes in Palm Beach County, so we worked 67 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 3: very closely with law enforcement. We worked very closely with 68 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: the legal system as well as the FBI. When Epstein 69 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:35,680 Speaker 3: was initially arrested and the FBI began the investigation, the 70 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 3: victim specialists through the FBI referred the victims to Victim Services. 71 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 3: At that time, the team at Victim Services felt that 72 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 3: it would be in all of their best interests. I 73 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,359 Speaker 3: was the main therapist who worked with the victims because 74 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 3: everybody's story was similar. The trauma, trauma was the victimization 75 00:04:57,880 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 3: was similar. I can't say the trauma was, but the 76 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 3: stimization was similar. So that's how I started getting involved 77 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 3: and treating the survivors. And then as more individuals came about, 78 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: when attorneys started getting involved and started picking up clients, 79 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 3: they too began referring their victims to me as well. 80 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: How many Initially, I want to ask, were you working 81 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 1: with And when did you know this was I guess 82 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:27,839 Speaker 1: you probably couldn't imagine it was going to become what 83 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: it now has become, how big of a story. But 84 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:35,000 Speaker 1: when did you first start to start getting a little 85 00:05:35,040 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: indication of this thing was going to be much bigger 86 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:42,159 Speaker 1: than maybe a case you'd ever worked on before. 87 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 3: Well, at the time, I probably, if I'm not mistaken, 88 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:51,160 Speaker 3: I was treating about seven victims at the time, seven girls, 89 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: seven teenagers. They were teenagers at the time. I thought 90 00:05:56,440 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 3: it was strange that I was deposed pretty quickly Jeffrey's attorneys. 91 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 3: I thought that was a red flag that they were 92 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,840 Speaker 3: deposing me so early as well that I just started 93 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 3: seeing them when I heard about the sweetheart deal, and 94 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: that myself, Brad Edwards and other attorneys had to inform 95 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:19,320 Speaker 3: their clients. That was a red flag for me. When 96 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:24,280 Speaker 3: I saw the charge of prostitution, I knew that this 97 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:28,160 Speaker 3: is a whole different ballgame now, because they just kept 98 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:33,480 Speaker 3: revictimizing and accusing and accusing, and the only individual who 99 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:37,840 Speaker 3: was seeking support at that time was Epstein. So it 100 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: was a huge red flag for me right at the 101 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: beginning when they made the sweetheart deal. 102 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 2: You know, Randy. It's so it's mind blowing to know 103 00:06:50,800 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 2: that here in twenty twenty five, this is the story 104 00:06:53,920 --> 00:06:56,760 Speaker 2: that it is. And these women now who were girls then, 105 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:01,840 Speaker 2: are just now feeling strong enough and safe enough perhaps 106 00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:06,279 Speaker 2: even to come forward and to hear them have to 107 00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:08,680 Speaker 2: explain the guilt and the shame. We've heard this in 108 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 2: other cases, but this one is significant because people keep asking, well, 109 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:15,680 Speaker 2: why would you keep going back, Why would you fly 110 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: on a private plane, Why would you go to the 111 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: island with him? Why would you not have run for 112 00:07:22,000 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 2: the hills or run to a police station. Once that 113 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:28,120 Speaker 2: massage became more than a massage, what do you say 114 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,000 Speaker 2: to those people who have those types of questions about 115 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: these young. 116 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 3: Girls, Well, the first thing they need to understand is 117 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 3: what it needs to be groomed by an individual. Okay, 118 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:44,680 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Epstein used his caring relationship, and of course I 119 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: use that term loosely carrying relationship with each one of 120 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 3: his victims as his weapon. So right from the start, 121 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,440 Speaker 3: he got to know each of them, He got to 122 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: know their families, he got to know about their dreams, 123 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 3: their goals, and he use that to manipulate them, to 124 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 3: exploit them. The way that he saw fit and that 125 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 3: made him feel good. So once you develop that relationship, 126 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:17,320 Speaker 3: there's something that's called deceptive trust development, and that was 127 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: something that Epstein banked on, was that deceptive trust that 128 00:08:21,960 --> 00:08:24,560 Speaker 3: he built in each of these girls. Now, remember we're 129 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: talking about the ages of thirteen to sixteen, So what 130 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 3: do we expect from a thirteen year old girl a 131 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 3: sixteen year old girl? Should we expect them to understand 132 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,800 Speaker 3: when they're being groomed and manipulated? Many girls felt that 133 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 3: they really didn't have a choice because they didn't want 134 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 3: to disappoint him. He was such a nice, caring man. 135 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:53,479 Speaker 3: He assured some of them he would help families with immigration, 136 00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 3: would help dreams come true, help them become models. He 137 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:01,200 Speaker 3: wrote reference letters to colleges for some of these girls. 138 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 3: They didn't want to hurt him. They didn't want to 139 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: betray him because they had this deceptive relationship that Jeffrey 140 00:09:10,840 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 3: built with each of them. So it's not easy along 141 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 3: their lines with that. Grooming is a form of mental abuse. 142 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:22,560 Speaker 3: Rooming makes the victim believe that they are part of 143 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:26,199 Speaker 3: the abuse themselves, and that's where that guilt and shame 144 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: comes from. 145 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 4: What was my role, am I going to get in 146 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 4: trouble too. 147 00:09:32,160 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: Many victims in two thousand and eight were waiting to 148 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 3: get arrested because they believed that they was just as 149 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 3: much to blame as Jeffrey because of that manipulation that 150 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 3: I'm speaking. 151 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,480 Speaker 1: Of, Randy, was that job one for you? Almost when 152 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 1: these victims first came in, you had to almost break 153 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,680 Speaker 1: down and convince them that they were not the problem. 154 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: That they had to be convinced to I the word convinced, 155 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: but you explain it, it make it sound almost they 156 00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: had to be convinced that they were actually victims. Was 157 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: that a common theme in these young women when you 158 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: first started talking to them, is that was like that 159 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: was the first work you had to do. 160 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: That is the theme that has been ongoing for the 161 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 3: past twenty years because they still second guess at times. 162 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 3: There are some girls that want to speak but are 163 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 3: afraid to speak. Even when when Epstein died, there was 164 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 3: the there were these conflictual feelings because what about all 165 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 3: the times that he was good to them? 166 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:36,200 Speaker 4: What about all the times. 167 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 3: That when some of them needed money they were in 168 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 3: a pinch. 169 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 4: Jeffrey would show up for them. 170 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,680 Speaker 3: So there there's a lot of inner conflict that goes 171 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 3: on with grooming and manipulation and mental abuse. So yes, 172 00:10:49,040 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 3: that is an ongoing feat that we continue to work on. 173 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 2: Randy, you said you started out with around seven young 174 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 2: women who you were counseling at the beginning of this 175 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:04,960 Speaker 2: in early two thousands. I don't even personally have an 176 00:11:05,000 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: idea of the scope of the number of women and 177 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 2: young women were talking about. Has that number grown in 178 00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,800 Speaker 2: terms of your circle of clients, and do you even 179 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 2: have a concept of how many young women were talking 180 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: about who were abused by Jeffrey Epstein. 181 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:28,920 Speaker 3: We're talking hundreds hundreds of women, so many still will 182 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 3: not speak about it, so many are still suppressing between 183 00:11:33,760 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: two thousand and eight and twenty and nineteen, after that 184 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,840 Speaker 3: that deal came out. Obviously, the victims were just distraught. 185 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 3: They felt betrayed, they felt devalued, they felt like they 186 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 3: didn't belong, They felt like the predators were more important 187 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,800 Speaker 3: than the victims. So a number of them hid for 188 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,800 Speaker 3: many years. They wanted to put everything behind them, They 189 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,760 Speaker 3: wanted to completely just completely wipe this from their memory 190 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 3: and from their experiences. Well, in the psychological world, we 191 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 3: know that when we suppress something, it stays inside. It 192 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 3: doesn't just go away, right, so that will build. In 193 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 3: twenty nineteen, when the FBI started contacting the survivors, going 194 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: to their homes, going to their work, this was like, Okay, 195 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,960 Speaker 3: there's nowhere for me to escape anymore. So everything that 196 00:12:26,000 --> 00:12:30,120 Speaker 3: they were attempting to suppress, everything came back, not only 197 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 3: the trauma and the experiences with Jeffrey, but also the 198 00:12:34,720 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 3: guilt and shame that they've been suppressing as well. So 199 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 3: it was starting back again. A number of girls that 200 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:45,440 Speaker 3: I saw in two thousand and eight were able to 201 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: find me again in twenty and nineteen, so I was 202 00:12:48,520 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 3: able to continue or go back to treating them again, 203 00:12:51,920 --> 00:12:56,319 Speaker 3: and I'm still doing so. But yes, a large number 204 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 3: of survivors came wanting treatment and wanting to get help, 205 00:13:01,960 --> 00:13:05,679 Speaker 3: wanting to understand what happened over these past, you know, 206 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: so many years. Some girls didn't even know that he 207 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 3: was released after the Sweetheart Deal. When they were approaching 208 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 3: in twenty nineteen, they were shocked to hear that he 209 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 3: was out of prison the entire time, so that skyrocketed 210 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 3: their fear. 211 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:28,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean in twenty fifteen, I spoke with then 212 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 2: Virginia Roberts, Virginia Jeffrey and she was in hiding. She 213 00:13:32,559 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 2: went to Australia. She talked about this harrowing decision with 214 00:13:37,160 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 2: her then husband to get out and to hide in 215 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,200 Speaker 2: Australia as far away as she could, or she thought 216 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,280 Speaker 2: from Jeffrey Epstein and to see how her life ended 217 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 2: just a few months ago is beyond heartbreaking. I am 218 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:58,400 Speaker 2: curious just in terms of the mental health struggles that 219 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 2: these young women are facing. People kind of say, oh, 220 00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:04,720 Speaker 2: you know they might poopoo. You see what happened to Virginia, 221 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 2: And I know this is what you're fighting for and 222 00:14:07,880 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 2: fighting against, certainly to not have that be the fate 223 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: of so many of these other young girls. But how 224 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 2: serious is their mental health at this point? How serious 225 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: are their conditions? And are you concerned that? I mean, 226 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,720 Speaker 2: it rises to that level where, yes, for young women 227 00:14:25,760 --> 00:14:28,880 Speaker 2: and now grown women are they don't want to live 228 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:30,720 Speaker 2: with what they've experienced. 229 00:14:32,160 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 3: Virginia Kufre's death hit many survivors in a way that 230 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: they did not expect. It was devastating, It was tragic 231 00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:45,920 Speaker 3: to them, and many questions from them were is this 232 00:14:46,040 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 3: my path? Is this something do I need to start 233 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 3: looking over my shoulder, Is this what's going to happen? 234 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 3: And also on the other side of it, we need 235 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 3: to continue Virginia's legacy. Virginia spoke up for so many 236 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:05,600 Speaker 3: of the survivors when nobody else had a voice, and 237 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:10,120 Speaker 3: many girls don't want that legacy to end with Virginia. 238 00:15:10,240 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 3: They want her voice to continue. So there's a lot 239 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 3: of inner conflict going on with many. They want to 240 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 3: use their voice. They're angry, They're angry about what's going 241 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 3: on right now. They feel again as if the government 242 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 3: is letting them down. But on the other side of 243 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 3: that too, what happens if I do speak up? What 244 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:35,600 Speaker 3: are the consequences? And throughout the years some who have 245 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 3: spoken over the past years have the public has not 246 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 3: been very nice and that's been a trauma in and 247 00:15:43,640 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 3: of it themselves, not believing them they knew what they 248 00:15:47,280 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 3: were doing. They just were doing it for the money. 249 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:52,200 Speaker 3: Oh did the money run out? Is that why they 250 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:57,280 Speaker 3: want to talk now? People don't understand what process they 251 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,360 Speaker 3: went through and that they're still going through. I've been 252 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:04,560 Speaker 3: doing this for forty years. I have never seen a 253 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 3: case go on as long as this. 254 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: Where does the closure in those cases, Does it come 255 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:26,720 Speaker 1: only after justice through our justice system or what? Or 256 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 1: is it time? What have you found in your forty 257 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:33,160 Speaker 1: years is the thing. I'm sure it can be different 258 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 1: for everybody that eventually or certainly is necessary to be 259 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,160 Speaker 1: able to turn that corner, to have to be on 260 00:16:40,560 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 1: the right path to healing. 261 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 4: Well, it's hard. 262 00:16:44,680 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 3: In any cases that I have worked with that have 263 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:51,720 Speaker 3: gone to trial, which have been hundreds of them. Justice 264 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 3: doesn't come from a guilty verdict. Justice doesn't come from 265 00:16:56,160 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 3: a twenty year to life sentence, okay, Because once that 266 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 3: once the sentence, once they've given the sentence, once they've 267 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 3: gone to prison, what do the victims have left now 268 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:07,240 Speaker 3: to deal with? 269 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 4: Right? They have the trauma left to deal with. 270 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 3: Because before, when you're going through court, when you know, 271 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,640 Speaker 3: when you're meeting with your attorneys, when you're going through 272 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 3: depositions and whatnot, that's a good distraction. You don't feel 273 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 3: like it's a good distraction, but it's a distraction that's 274 00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:26,640 Speaker 3: your control. You have some element of control over your 275 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,240 Speaker 3: trauma by fighting these cases, whether it be in court, 276 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 3: whether it be in public. However, closure can only come 277 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 3: from within. And the problem with this case is number one. 278 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 3: I don't know if they believe in justice at this 279 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:47,760 Speaker 3: point right. I was asking an interview last week about 280 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 3: hope and do they have hope that if these records 281 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 3: are released, that this will finally be it? And what 282 00:17:57,000 --> 00:17:59,879 Speaker 3: I explained is they have been holding on to hope 283 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 3: since the beginning, since they stop going to Jeffrey okay, 284 00:18:03,920 --> 00:18:07,440 Speaker 3: and they will never give up hope. However, the one 285 00:18:07,600 --> 00:18:08,680 Speaker 3: thing that has been. 286 00:18:08,600 --> 00:18:10,520 Speaker 4: Lost is trust. 287 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 3: Who can they trust now, law enforcement, the government, the 288 00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 3: legal system. 289 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,120 Speaker 4: Who do they trust? 290 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 3: Because each element who has supposed to be there for them, 291 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 3: who is supposed to advocate for them, let them down. 292 00:18:29,320 --> 00:18:34,199 Speaker 3: So while there's hope, they're still clinging onto who do 293 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 3: I trust? 294 00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:35,760 Speaker 4: Who do I talk to? 295 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 3: Who's going to help me heal and go through this journey? 296 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:47,359 Speaker 2: Randy, I'm curious. We keep hearing about more records being released, 297 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 2: more documents being released, whether or not there's a list, 298 00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:54,840 Speaker 2: and it's exhausting because it's unclear, like I don't even 299 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:58,000 Speaker 2: know what's left out there to be released, what it 300 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,920 Speaker 2: is that maybe a record of something that could be 301 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,360 Speaker 2: a smoking gun. Have your clients explained to you and 302 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 2: about what that is that still needs to get out 303 00:19:09,600 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 2: that hasn't been let out yet. 304 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:18,080 Speaker 3: They want transparency as to what happened since two what 305 00:19:18,119 --> 00:19:21,400 Speaker 3: happened in two thousand and eight, and why wasn't anybody 306 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 3: held the accountable. Then that's the transparency that they want. 307 00:19:26,280 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 3: A list. Okay, what's a list? You know they want 308 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: to know that people who want to be held accountable. Yes, 309 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,720 Speaker 3: but also it's coming at a cost at this point. 310 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,360 Speaker 4: You know, they're. 311 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 3: Dangling these these these files. Yes, we're going to release 312 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 3: the files. Well, we can't release the files. Well, you know, 313 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,320 Speaker 3: it's been an ongoing battle of is it going to 314 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 3: happen or not? So I feel like this is just 315 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,879 Speaker 3: another way to make the survivors wait and have no 316 00:19:56,960 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: control over the next step of this process, because are 317 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 3: they talking about it as Okay, this is going to happen, 318 00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 3: this is what I want? Is it because it's a 319 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:10,919 Speaker 3: distraction for other people? They don't know anymore? 320 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:17,160 Speaker 1: You've mentioned in everybody lists lists, Epstein client List, client list. 321 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:19,399 Speaker 1: It was a big focus last week as well. At 322 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: least have made a lot of headlines when several of 323 00:20:21,560 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 1: the survivors said we're going to compile our own lists confidentially. 324 00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: Now on that matter, I'm asking you and all the 325 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 1: work you have done, have they certainly shared names with 326 00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,840 Speaker 1: you that most of us in the public would certainly 327 00:20:37,000 --> 00:20:40,359 Speaker 1: recognize if we heard them. As far as other people 328 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: out there who have victimized them. 329 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,040 Speaker 3: The individuals, the survivors that I have worked with from 330 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: two thousand and seven up until the present time, have 331 00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: been abused by Jeffrey Epstein. The accountability that they want 332 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:02,919 Speaker 3: are from the adults that were in his mansion, his accountant, 333 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:07,520 Speaker 3: you know, the people who were helping this whole process, 334 00:21:07,560 --> 00:21:10,440 Speaker 3: who knew and didn't do anything about it, the legal 335 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 3: team from two thousand and eight. Those are the people 336 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: that they want to see accountability because they're the ones 337 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:23,600 Speaker 3: who were watching these young girls get abused day after day, 338 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 3: over and over and over again. So that's the transparency 339 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 3: they're looking for. 340 00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:32,560 Speaker 2: That makes a lot of sense. And in terms of 341 00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: the people who knew what was going on, and the 342 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: other person who many victims say also personally physically abuse 343 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 2: them was Gallaine Maxwell. And to have what's been happening 344 00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:45,439 Speaker 2: in the news, and certainly with her being moved to 345 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:51,119 Speaker 2: this gentler kinder prison camp in Texas without ever being 346 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: told none of these victims were even given a say 347 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 2: or heads up about what was happening. Can you talk 348 00:21:56,280 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 2: a little bit about how this back and forth and 349 00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 2: the possibility that Galeane Maxwell could even be pardoned by Trump, 350 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: what that has been like, what your clients have talked 351 00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 2: to you about, how that has impacted their mental health 352 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 2: and what they want to see happen with her specifically. 353 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 3: This has greatly impacted their mental health. When Glaine was 354 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:22,639 Speaker 3: sentenced to twenty years, they felt that, okay, we have 355 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 3: some element of justice here, even if it's a little bit. 356 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 3: It was what Glaine represented. You know, Jeffrey did not, 357 00:22:30,960 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 3: you know, he took his life. He took the easy 358 00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,840 Speaker 3: way out. So all they had. 359 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,360 Speaker 4: Left was Glaine. 360 00:22:37,400 --> 00:22:41,600 Speaker 3: And when they started talking about, you know, more interviews 361 00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 3: with Gleane, when they moved her anger, frustration, betrayal. Again 362 00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 3: we talk about the hope that was hope and now 363 00:22:54,400 --> 00:22:57,920 Speaker 3: you can see how it's starting to slip through their fingers. 364 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:03,200 Speaker 3: Yet again, for what reason? Glaine is a liar? Glaine 365 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 3: was charged with perjury. Why are we going to believe 366 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,240 Speaker 3: anything that this woman said? And if she had all 367 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 3: of this information that they think she does, I would 368 00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 3: assume she would have brought that up during her trial. 369 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 3: Why would she hold on to it until now? That 370 00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 3: doesn't make sense. So this is another tear injustice. When 371 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 3: it comes to how the survivors feel. 372 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 1: Well, Randy, how can there be any Like you said, 373 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: they don't trust the process, There is no hope. What 374 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 1: possibly could the government do or anybody say. Even if 375 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,960 Speaker 1: they say, hey, here are the keys to the fileroom, 376 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: knock yourselves out, even then there will be an assumption that, well, 377 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,919 Speaker 1: they probably remove some stuff before they let us in, 378 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: Like can there anything, can anything? What are they asking 379 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 1: for now that could possibly make them feel like it's transparent? 380 00:23:56,080 --> 00:24:00,200 Speaker 3: Alex Acosta being held accountable is probably one of the 381 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 3: biggest hopes right now, and keep it. Putting Blaine where 382 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:08,640 Speaker 3: she belongs in a maximum security prison. We're talking about 383 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,760 Speaker 3: a sexual predator. The only two sexual predators I know 384 00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:17,680 Speaker 3: that have had an easy experience in the legal system, Jeffrey. 385 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 4: Epstein and Glaine Maxwell. 386 00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 3: So it's been really hard to come up with something 387 00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 3: to hold on to right now. 388 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 4: Besides, you know, it's a waiting game, Randy. 389 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: As much as your clients, and I'm sure you too, 390 00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:40,640 Speaker 2: given your intense just personal it has to be personal 391 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 2: relationship with these young women and seeing what they've been through. 392 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 2: Can you even describe what it feels like to have 393 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 2: this be so politicized, you know, it seems as though 394 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: I can only imagine it doesn't feel like it's for 395 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: the victims. It's about the victims. It truly is about 396 00:24:59,560 --> 00:25:03,440 Speaker 2: making a political name for yourself, about saving some sort 397 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 2: of political face in a mob that wants answers. It's 398 00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:12,639 Speaker 2: almost as if they're using this for political gain, or 399 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 2: at least deflecting so that they aren't politically injured in 400 00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 2: any way. But it is not about the thig that 401 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 2: it hasn't seemed like it it's been at all from 402 00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: the beginning. 403 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,560 Speaker 3: That's correct, That's correct, and it is devastating to so 404 00:25:26,480 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 3: many of them that our president is the one calling 405 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 3: it a hoax. The president. You know, there were planes 406 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,400 Speaker 3: that were flying over the girls when they were speaking 407 00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 3: at the rally and the press conference. That was another 408 00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,199 Speaker 3: hit for them. You know, they're devastated to see that 409 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,200 Speaker 3: here they are going to Washington and taking this risk 410 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:54,359 Speaker 3: to speak out and. 411 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 4: They're actors in a hoax. 412 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,320 Speaker 3: So that was just it was very hurtful and especially 413 00:25:58,359 --> 00:26:02,879 Speaker 3: individuals who had voted for the president because they thought 414 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 3: that he would release these files and it would be done. 415 00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 4: And was that a form of grooming you know? 416 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 3: One questions if that was to get voters. I don't know, 417 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,680 Speaker 3: but it's starting to feel that way from them right now. 418 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:32,239 Speaker 1: If there were we kind of been hitting on this, 419 00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,400 Speaker 1: you've hinted, but if there were a list of demands 420 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,320 Speaker 1: right now that the victims you've worked with, or just 421 00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:41,560 Speaker 1: generally speaking of the president of the government, what would 422 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: those demands right now look like? 423 00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:49,440 Speaker 3: Old people accountable, who knew about it, who didn't do 424 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 3: something about it, or who fostered it. That is what's 425 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:58,160 Speaker 3: important right now, and then put it to rest. These 426 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 3: women need to heal in peace, and it's constantly disrupted, 427 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 3: you know. And some women came forward to speak for 428 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 3: the first time because that's how angry they are. That's 429 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 3: how angry they are. How many conspiracy theories are going 430 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 3: on out there about Epstein and Glee Maxwell, how many 431 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: AI stories, how many lies you know, and they're watching 432 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,920 Speaker 3: it and it's like, these are our lives, Like this 433 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 3: is my life, and here you are making up all 434 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:35,520 Speaker 3: of these stories about my life. So some got to 435 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,480 Speaker 3: the point where enough is enough. But this is how, 436 00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 3: this is how, this is what it took instead of 437 00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 3: part of their therapeutic healing process that had to be 438 00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 3: we need to do it now because they're not telling 439 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 3: the truth. I don't think that's very fair to survivors now. 440 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 2: And some of the survivors are actually asking for a 441 00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:01,200 Speaker 2: meeting with President Trump. Are some of you clients a 442 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,879 Speaker 2: part of that group? And what do they want to 443 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 2: hear from him? And what are they hoping to gain 444 00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:08,640 Speaker 2: from him given all of the I don't know how 445 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 2: they feel about the headlines, and we've known this for 446 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 2: a long time, the connections between Trump and Epstein, and 447 00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 2: of course they had a falling out at a certain point, 448 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,360 Speaker 2: but even some of the pictures, some of the comments 449 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,200 Speaker 2: he's made about Virginia just give me a sense of 450 00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,959 Speaker 2: where they stand on that meeting and what they're hoping 451 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 2: to achieve. 452 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 3: I mean, their goal is to have Trump understand that 453 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 3: what happened to them is real. I mean, let's start 454 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:38,160 Speaker 3: with the basics here. You know, first belief, because there 455 00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:43,400 Speaker 3: seems to be disbelief and it's heartbreaking. It's heartbreaking to 456 00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:46,719 Speaker 3: think that the leader of this country is focused more 457 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:52,760 Speaker 3: on protecting the individuals in his party rather than all 458 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: of these women that continue to suffer. Some have never 459 00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 3: uttered the words of their story up until today. Still 460 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: there are women coming out each and every day now 461 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 3: reaching out to me after all of this is going on, 462 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 3: wanting to support other survivors. They call themselves their soul sisters. 463 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 3: They want to be there and support their soul sisters 464 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:23,440 Speaker 3: because they feel that the people who should be supporting 465 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 3: them aren't. So it's a scary idea of having that meeting. 466 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 3: As a therapist, seeing what they're going through. I would 467 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 3: be a little nervous with that meeting because of the 468 00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:38,600 Speaker 3: lack of compassion and empathy that they have been welcomed, 469 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 3: especially in Washington. 470 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 1: Well, you said nervous. It almost sounds like as someone 471 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,200 Speaker 1: who has treated these victims, you almost sound like you 472 00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 1: would lean against them sitting in a room and talking 473 00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: to President Trump. 474 00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 3: I would be concerned. I would absolutely be concerned about it. 475 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 3: I would make sure I would be somewhere close by. 476 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 3: I would be because unfortunately I don't trust. I don't 477 00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:09,880 Speaker 3: trust that there's going to be that compassion because where 478 00:30:09,920 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 3: has it been? 479 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 2: And Randy, it's interesting We talked a little bit before 480 00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,200 Speaker 2: we came on the podcast about where you were last 481 00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:21,360 Speaker 2: week when so many of those victims did decide to 482 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 2: put their names and faces and tell part of their 483 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 2: story to the world. You said you stayed back in 484 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 2: Florida because why. 485 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,560 Speaker 3: I stayed back in Florida Because I wanted them to 486 00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,440 Speaker 3: have a home base with me. What I mean by 487 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,120 Speaker 3: that is they can reach out to me at any time. 488 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,640 Speaker 3: So I was in contact with many of the survivors 489 00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 3: throughout the past days because it was extremely overwhelming, it 490 00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 3: was mentally exhausting. So I made sure that I was 491 00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 3: here for them as that support, as that anchor, while 492 00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,719 Speaker 3: working with the other their survivors who were having a 493 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 3: hard time with you know, the headlines of after they 494 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 3: spoke the comments. So there was so much going on, 495 00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 3: you know, with the victims that didn't speak and the 496 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,240 Speaker 3: ones that did. So I wanted to make sure that 497 00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,680 Speaker 3: I was there for each of them and all of 498 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 3: them at that time. And I felt that being in Washington, 499 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: I would be pulled into many directions and that wouldn't 500 00:31:24,480 --> 00:31:26,200 Speaker 3: be a good thing for them at the time. 501 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:31,280 Speaker 1: Ernie, can you tell us one as journalists, can you 502 00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: tell all of us as citizens, what we are getting wrong? 503 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: What would you absolutely like us to be doing better 504 00:31:40,120 --> 00:31:45,320 Speaker 1: in how we're having conversations publicly about Epstein about the victims, 505 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: to be more mindful of those survivors and what they're 506 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: going through. I know we cover it, and sometimes we 507 00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: covered we get caught up in a headline and you 508 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: don't remember the humanity and there's a victim in the 509 00:31:57,440 --> 00:31:59,560 Speaker 1: middle of it. But I'm just curious to you seeing 510 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,320 Speaker 1: cover and whether it's social media and whether it's CNN, 511 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: what do you see that we continue to get wrong 512 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: in our conversation about sexual abuse victims, in particular this 513 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 1: Epstein case. 514 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:13,720 Speaker 3: People think that when we'll speak with young girls, when 515 00:32:13,760 --> 00:32:17,720 Speaker 3: young girls are groomed and sexually exploited, that they can 516 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,560 Speaker 3: come and go, that they knew what they were doing, 517 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 3: they knew how to get out of it, And that 518 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 3: is not the way it works. Grooming is a very 519 00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: dangerous weapon because there's no force involved. 520 00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:32,600 Speaker 4: So because they are no. 521 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 3: Force and people don't understand what grooming is, they just 522 00:32:35,880 --> 00:32:39,560 Speaker 3: assume that, well, you can just get out, and it's 523 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 3: a form of brainwashing. Right, So how are young girls 524 00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:49,560 Speaker 3: supposed to know that Jeffrey was brainwashing them, manipulating them 525 00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 3: to get his needs met rather than well, he was 526 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:58,680 Speaker 3: building this relationship because he cared. So it really starts there. 527 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 3: They did not know what they were getting into, and 528 00:33:03,840 --> 00:33:08,120 Speaker 3: just because they went back does not mean they were 529 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,400 Speaker 3: looking to be abused, that it was all about the money. 530 00:33:12,840 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: It was about the weapon, which was his relationship with 531 00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 3: each girl. 532 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:19,720 Speaker 4: That's the first thing. The second thing. 533 00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:24,800 Speaker 3: These are human beings that have been going through this 534 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: from the ages of thirteen through their late thirties. Believe them, 535 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:37,480 Speaker 3: this happened. Everything that you hear about what Epstein did. 536 00:33:37,880 --> 00:33:41,320 Speaker 4: And more is true. 537 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 3: And it is not easy for them to open social media. 538 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:47,719 Speaker 3: I mean, you know, in this day and age, what 539 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 3: our phones are our lives, right. We don't just turn 540 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 3: on the TV anymore. We wake up to our phone, 541 00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 3: We go to sleep to our phone. We go to 542 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,080 Speaker 3: the bathroom with our phone. We drive, God forbid, we 543 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 3: drive with our phones, I mean our phone our concert 544 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 3: We like to go to comedy shows, don't we. 545 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 4: We'd like to go to. 546 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:11,520 Speaker 3: Concerts everywhere that they go, everywhere that they look, they 547 00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 3: are reminded of Jeffrey Epstein. Saturday Night Live skits stand 548 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 3: up comedians, different TV shows, on top of the media, 549 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:27,640 Speaker 3: making up stories, saying horrible things about them, judging them, 550 00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,640 Speaker 3: judging how they heal, judging what they look like, judging 551 00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 3: that they received. You know, settlements. Settlements did not heal 552 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,960 Speaker 3: any wounds. Let's be clear. Settlements help them get the 553 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:43,480 Speaker 3: treatment that they so desperately need and deserve. 554 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: Wow, it's been said, and I'm just curious with your perspective. 555 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,759 Speaker 2: You said you've been doing this for forty years. I 556 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 2: can't imagine when you heard one story after another and 557 00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: they each sounded so similar and yet sadly, so effective 558 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 2: and so powerful. Would you say that Jeffrey Epstein was 559 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 2: perhaps the most prolific pedophile in this country's history. I mean, 560 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 2: have you ever seen anything like. 561 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:18,560 Speaker 3: This, not like this now, and not with such ongoing exposure. 562 00:35:18,680 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 3: Even after death. Jeffrey Epstein has been sensationalized, Jeffrey Epstein 563 00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:29,719 Speaker 3: has been celebritized in many ways, and it is just 564 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 3: tragic that this is how we treat predators and this 565 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,040 Speaker 3: is how we treat survivors. 566 00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:37,320 Speaker 4: It's tragic. 567 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:45,320 Speaker 2: Well, Randy, I'm sure you hopefully just feel the impact 568 00:35:45,320 --> 00:35:48,359 Speaker 2: you're having on these women and these young women who 569 00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,239 Speaker 2: are counting on you to get through this and this 570 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 2: will be with them forever. But thank goodness, you're in 571 00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 2: their lives, and we certainly appreciate you giving us some 572 00:35:57,120 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 2: perspective as to what they're going through. And the tragedy 573 00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 2: isn't it's so deeply personal for each one of these girls. 574 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:08,239 Speaker 2: It isn't just a headline. And we know that intellectually, 575 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,800 Speaker 2: but to hear you actually talk about what these girls 576 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 2: and now women are living with and living through with 577 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 2: all of these continuing headlines, we just appreciate your insight 578 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,200 Speaker 2: and your perspective and the work that you do each 579 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 2: and every day. That can't be easy to not take 580 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: that home with you. 581 00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:25,880 Speaker 4: Thank you so much. 582 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 3: It's so important that we have these conversations, so important. 583 00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 4: Thank you. 584 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 3: Thank you for supporting and having the compassion that they 585 00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,440 Speaker 3: so desperately need. 586 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,240 Speaker 2: Well, thank you, Randy. We hope you have a wonderful 587 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: day and we appreciate your time. As always. We hope 588 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:42,399 Speaker 2: you'll check back in with us, and we hope they'll 589 00:36:42,400 --> 00:36:45,759 Speaker 2: be better news, perhaps in the weeks and maybe even 590 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 2: years to come. 591 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,839 Speaker 4: That sounds wonderful. Thank you so much.